Informal Poll: Will You Take The Vaccine At The First Opportunity?

17,253 Views | 198 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by sycasey
heartofthebear
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I don't know what purpose is served by this discussion.

We will never get to the point in this society where vaccines will be a universally agreed upon avenue of remedy for this or any other pandemic.

Like it or not, there is legitimate research on both sides of the issue and the topic has not reached a point yet where consensus can be reached. Knowledge takes on a process that eventually leads to general consensus and, for some, there is the belief that vaccines have achieved that. But they have not.

The narrative here is largely based on beliefs already held.
I'm not sure what can be said that will convince someone who does not want to take the vaccine that they need to take it and vice versa, although the usual amount of shaming, blaming and character slamming will be found on this thread, it will achieve virtually nothing other than to make the poster feel temporarily better. It will do nothing to make Americans safer or healthier.

I suppose there might be an effort here to justify legal or societal banishment of those who disagree about vaccines. The problem with that is that most of extremely violent right wing will be in the streets starting civil war.

If you want to go there, you have yourself to blame.

Another possible idea is that having this discussion distracts from any real discussion about solutions to this problem. Because, as long as vaccines are the only solution, nothing else can be.

How many folks here would prefer a solution other than vaccines? Probably not many, because it would probably require more of them. After all, a little arm injection is so simple easy and harmless, right? And its much easier than disciplining your diet.

Some of us don't think a little arm injection is so simple.


sycasey
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heartofthebear said:

I don't know what purpose is served by this discussion.

We will never get to the point in this society where vaccines will be a universally agreed upon avenue of remedy for this or any other pandemic.

Like it or not, there is legitimate research on both sides of the issue and the topic has not reached a point yet where consensus can be reached. Knowledge takes on a process that eventually leads to general consensus and, for some, there is the belief that vaccines have achieved that. But they have not.

The narrative here is largely based on beliefs already held.
I'm not sure what can be said that will convince someone who does not want to take the vaccine that they need to take it and vice versa, although the usual amount of shaming, blaming and character slamming will be found on this thread, it will achieve virtually nothing other than to make the poster feel temporarily better. It will do nothing to make Americans safer or healthier.

I suppose there might be an effort here to justify legal or societal banishment of those who disagree about vaccines. The problem with that is that most of extremely violent right wing will be in the streets starting civil war.

If you want to go there, you have yourself to blame.

Another possible idea is that having this discussion distracts from any real discussion about solutions to this problem. Because, as long as vaccines are the only solution, nothing else can be.

How many folks here would prefer a solution other than vaccines? Probably not many, because it would probably require more of them. After all, a little arm injection is so simple easy and harmless, right? And its much easier than disciplining your diet.

Some of us don't think a little arm injection is so simple.
You keep talking about the "experts" who are on your side but thus far have been pretty short on citations. Who?
BearlyCareAnymore
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heartofthebear said:

OaktownBear said:

Anarchistbear said:

I wonder if all those native Americans wiped out by imported European pathogens had dietary problems.


Exactly
Actually they did have dietary problems.
Many peoples living tribally without benefit of agriculture and without availability of fresh produce in the winter had to rely on hunting. Meat acidifies the body to a great extent and introduces microbes that invite disease. The reason why there were not so many major pandemics back then is that migration and population was limited.

These days, we have the capability of controlling our diet, which is a great luxury compared to our long history. We should take advantage of it.

I have a great respect for the native Americans but diet is not one of them. And many today are suffering from diabetes.

It is under-reported that early Europeans in the America's prior to the pilgrims were pretty brutal, enslaving the natives to help them acquire gold. Columbus' motivation for coming to America was gold. He was in terrible debt and the queen sponsored his trip for the purposes of getting gold.

It's possible that the rape, torture and enslavement of the people's weakened them genetically and physically and made them more susceptible to disease.

In any case, there is no evidence that a peaceful co-existence between Europeans and Natives in America with both eating a plant based diet would have resulted in the Natives being wiped out by disease.

So I'm not sure what your point is exactly.
This is why I should not come on this site. It just kills any shred of faith I have in humanity. I have no idea where you have gotten any of the above. It is so completely wrong. I have a degree in Anthropology. Your view of Native Americans is plain ignorant and you cannot write that and then say you respect them.

1. Their diet today when the few that are left have been shoved onto reservations, their cultures have been destroyed and the land they have is the worst possible land bears no resemblance to what they had before. Native Americans on reservations are dirt poor, have terrible diets, and alcoholism is rampant. Their diabetes today has nothing to do with anything.

2. Native Americans were not monolithic. They were many cultures just as in Europe. But the vast majority were not hunter gatherers living "tribally" without agriculture. There were large scale cities all over North and South America. Not just the Mayans and the Aztecs and the Incans. All over. Major cities as in the same size as European cities. The image of them huddled in fields in tepees is bullshyte.

3. Native Americans were absolute masters of agriculture. Their ability to cross breed plants, fruits and vegetables into higher quality crops was light years ahead of anything in the old world. Their food quickly replaced much of the European diet because it was so much better. Have you ever seen the original corn plant? It basically looks like a blade of wheat. They created corn, tomatoes and many, many fruits and vegetables. These are not things they picked from the natural environment. They bred many, many species. They had plenty of crops and most had an overwhelmingly plant based diet. They had very few domesticated animals because the animals in North America were not suited for domestication. Outside of the bison, on the North American plains they did not rely very much on big game.

4. You have two continents worth of varied cultures with varied diets. Much of those continents have temperate weather year round that are suitable for growing food year round. And your premise here is that none of them got it right. They all had bad diets. That is what you are going with? Actually that is what you are going with world wide. That in the history of mankind, no one has ever put together your diet. Indians (from India) eat almost entirely plant based, but, oh, yes. They eat spices. Every disease that has traversed the world would have been wiped out if only we had better diets.

5. Why were Native Americans not subject to pandemics before contact with Europeans? See humans living with domesticated livestock is a petri dish for the development of diseases. Very few cultures outside of Europe were reliant on livestock prior to contact because most animals that were easily domesticated were in Europe and West Asia. Quite simply, Europeans got the diseases first. They had built up their immune systems. What happened to Native Americans also happened to Africans. They had no immunity to the large numbers of diseases Europeans had in their population so it ran roughshod through them.

6. It is well known that Native Americans were enslaved, especially by the Spanish and treated poorly. No, it is not possible that a tiny drop in the gene pool from a few Spaniards raping some people caused genetic weakness in two continents worth of millions and millions of people. That is ridiculous. And in any case, the impact of diseases was pretty much immediate from contact, even with Columbus.

7. Almost no hunter gatherer cultures had a largely meat, fish, and/or dairy based diet.

8. Meat doesn't acidify the body. Too much meat acidifies the body. Americans eat too much meat.

9. Evolution works to adapt the body to the diet it has available to it. You feed a dog all plants and it will get sick. Evolution is a slow process. It isn't that slow. For instance, adult humans by and large are not designed to eat dairy. But adult humans that come from dairy consuming cultures (Europeans) have adapted to consume dairy. Their bodies break down dairy in a way that other populations don't. That is over about 10K years. The human body is not adapted for the diet you are proposing. For literally 3 million years, humans and their ancestors have eaten a largely plant based diet supplemented with meat. Get naturally occurring fat and sugar wherever you can, and largely eat grains, nuts, roots and vegetables. Here is the thing. Our brains started growing. Brains require tons and tons of energy. They are a huge calorie suck. You cannot grow them without lots of calories. Gorilla's eat largely leaves. Chimps have a more varied diet and will occasionally grab a monkey. Our ancestors couldn't do that. They needed a source of easily digestible food to support their brains. So literally 4-6 million years ago they started scavenging meat, because basically they had to. Our brains got bigger and bigger. We needed more calories that were easy to digest. So well over a million years ago, homo erectus, with a much bigger brain than its predecessors, learned how to cook its food. Cooking food essentially prepares it for easy digestion. We could not have evolved as we did, specifically the brain that we did, without supplementing our food with meat and by cooking both meat and plants. You eat a diet of raw fruits and vegetables in nature you die and the human species with you. Our bodies are not evolved to eat the diet you are proposing. You have to go back 4-6 million years to find an ancestor that had a diet that was raw plant based. You have to go back infinity to find an ancestor that lived on raw fruit because I'm pretty sure we don't have any in our lineage. It makes no sense that the human body would run most efficiently on a diet that it has never had. The diet you are championing is counter to the diet humans evolved to process.


Quote:

In any case, there is no evidence that a peaceful co-existence between Europeans and Natives in America with both eating a plant based diet would have resulted in the Natives being wiped out by disease.
This is like saying (for Harry Potter fans) that I have no evidence that the resurrection stone doesn't exist unless I test every stone on earth to see if it brings back the dead. I have no evidence that feeding the Native Americans Froot Loops and Twinkies wouldn't have stopped the disease by your reasoning. Only I do. Never in the history of the world have communicable diseases been stopped by diet. Over and over they have been stopped by vaccines or herd immunity. We know how viruses spread. Diet is not a key vector in the spread. Your experts are not experts. They tell a good story. (and mostly make a lot of cash) Largely they take truth - eating healthy makes you healthier and boosts your immune system - add a bunch of stuff that sounds good to people who don't understand the mechanisms, and then make even bigger claims. You will not find a double blind study that supports their theories. You will not find a longitudinal study that supports their theories.

Do I think you actively don't care about your fellow man? No. That isn't enough. I'm sorry. You can be magnanimous that well we both believe what we believe and we both have experts. I won't be. Because we don't. There is no both siderism here. You don't have real experts. There is no scientific evidence to back up your claims. I'm happy to agree to disagree, but this is not an opinion thing. When it comes to vaccines I am right and you are wrong. And your wrong kills people whether you want to believe it or not. You cannot cure cancer with green juice. You cure it with cancer treatment. You cannot stop viruses with diet. They stop with herd immunity. That is brought on by vaccines or death. There is so much evidence for that fact that I should not have to have this discussion.

I respect your diet a lot. I think you are probably one of the healthiest people here. I think a lot of your reasoning is off, but for the most part it is infinitely better than most diets people in America eat. But there are limitation to what diet can do. Diet is not a replacement for vaccines.
BearlyCareAnymore
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Quote:

We will never get to the point in this society where vaccines will be a universally agreed upon avenue of remedy for this or any other pandemic.
Of course not because there are always a few crackpots. However, we have gotten to the point where we have had vaccines as an agreed upon remedy for things like small pox and polio. And the important part of fighting those diseases is making sure it is understood that crackpots are crackpots so they stay at 5% of the population instead of 20%. Because crackpots kill people.


Quote:

Like it or not, there is legitimate research on both sides of the issue

That is absolutely false.



BearlyCareAnymore
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heartofthebear said:

OaktownBear said:

heartofthebear said:

sycasey said:

I don't see this as an either/or. You can eat right and exercise and ALSO take the damn vaccine.

Unless you're a front-line health care worker then you're probably only getting it after it's already been tested on a bunch of people.
Correct, it's not an either/or.
We all have to make our own cost/benefit analyses for these things.
And we have to assess risks.

Not all of the above have the same risks.


Except if I fail to eat right, my cost benefit analysis doesn't lead to infants getting measles.

Sorry but have a care about your fellow man and get the vaccine.
Got it.
I don't assess risks the same way.
And I don't think I care about my fellow man any less than you do, although I'm sure you have formed that opinion of me.
Just curious. How do you explain newborns who have nothing but breast milk getting viruses? How do you explain infants who have nothing but breast milk with a little fruit and vegetables? Their bodies haven't been corrupted by all these spices and meats and such. If anything, breast milk is shown to boost the immune system. Why do they get the viruses?
BearsWiin
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OaktownBear said:

heartofthebear said:

OaktownBear said:

heartofthebear said:

sycasey said:

I don't see this as an either/or. You can eat right and exercise and ALSO take the damn vaccine.

Unless you're a front-line health care worker then you're probably only getting it after it's already been tested on a bunch of people.
Correct, it's not an either/or.
We all have to make our own cost/benefit analyses for these things.
And we have to assess risks.

Not all of the above have the same risks.


Except if I fail to eat right, my cost benefit analysis doesn't lead to infants getting measles.

Sorry but have a care about your fellow man and get the vaccine.
Got it.
I don't assess risks the same way.
And I don't think I care about my fellow man any less than you do, although I'm sure you have formed that opinion of me.
Just curious. How do you explain newborns who have nothing but breast milk getting viruses? How do you explain infants who have nothing but breast milk with a little fruit and vegetables? Their bodies haven't been corrupted by all these spices and meats and such. If anything, breast milk is shown to boost the immune system. Why do they get the viruses?
Mom's clogged lymph is expressed through the breastmilk, duh

Having a conversation with hotb is like a Martian talking to a fungo, exhibit 89376b

sycasey
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heartofthebear said:

concordtom said:

heartofthebear said:

concordtom said:

heartofthebear said:

concordtom said:

You don't believe in Covid vaccines as a solution here, or you don't believe in vaccines in general?

Polio, small pox? Hello?

What's the difference?
I don't believe in vaccinating a protein. I don't know about the others but I have no wholesale bias against vaccines and I have taken some. There are others I have not taken without negative consequences. The flu shot I have taken and not taken with similar results either way.

The trouble with many of these debates is that it relies on the beliefs each of us holds as to which science is more "scientific" and which authorities are trustworthy. One persons sacred cow is another persons personal betrayer. There is no standard that is honorable and agreed upon when it comes to truth, science or knowledge. So I don't rely and outsiders so much as I rely on direct personal experience.

I can say quite honestly that I have repeatedly created and eliminated disease like symptoms in my body just by altering my diet one way and then back again.

Full disclosure. I am a food addict. I indulge outside of my preferred diet on a semi-regular basis. The impact is so consistent that it is predictable. I now which symptoms I am going to have before I have them based on what I have eaten.

The food, meat, dairy, coffee, wheat, sugar and additive industries are so powerful that they have infiltrated the health industry quite significantly. So, yes I do take vaccines on occasion and no I don't trust the medical basis for much of the disease model promoted by the AMA, the FDA and the biomedical industry.

One piece of evidence for this corruption is that certain health practices, like nutritional therapies, are much more widely and successfully practiced at a fraction of the cost in other countries. Meanwhile the status of Americans in the world health picture has steadily plummeted while folks pay more. I wonder why? The answer is not an accident. The answer is about profit.


So, what is your preferred diet for healthy living? Vegan?
vegan isn't necessarily any better. It depends on the type. It depends on how you combine food. It depends on how you hydrate. Since nobody is perfect, it depends on how often or the degree of "cheating". It depends on sugar, salt and oil intake and what types. But I would suggest, if you really want to detoxify and have a strong immune system, go on a raw food, primarily fruit diet, with no additives, including any sugars or seasonings. You can combine this diet with certain herbs/teas although I would not take supplements. You can do occasional fasting, either dry or water only for 1 or two days (I would not do a dry fast more than 1 day). You don't have to do this diet all of the time. Just do it when needed. Right now, because of covid, it is needed.

By detoxifying, you will support the lymph to start working properly and that will support the immune system to strengthen the cellular level battle that helps to keep the virus from penetrating the cell wall and incubating there.
The problem for many folks is that the cells do not recognize the virus as invasive because the body is already dealing with many other toxins and cannot distinguish it. So it lets the virus in. A more detoxified body won't have that issue.

That is my understanding anyway, but then again, I'm down in the rabbit hole, so what do I know. LOL--the thing is, lots of top notch scientists and health professionals are down there with me. So, good luck fighting that battle.
Debating or discussing diets is so much healthier than discussing Trump's lies. Thank you.

Question: when you say that the food we eat toxifies us, what foods are you referring to?

So, I haven't heard the "primarily fruits" as much as I've heard "primarily vegetables, secondarily fruit". I've cut meat and dairy products, and eggs for 5 years. Rarely I'll have fish if the menu is no good or just decide to treat myself. Essenstyn, Ornish, China Study. And I like Fuhrman's ANDI scores as a quick reference reminder. Try to score as high as possible each meal. It jars you into "god, that's like poison - why would I eat that?"

ANDI stands for "Aggregate Nutrient Density Index." An ANDI score shows the nutrient density of a food on a scale from 1 to 1000 based on nutrient content. A value of 1000 being the most nutritious per calorie, and 1 being the least.






PS: I agree with you on HYDRATION!
You are working off the same knowledge tree as I am! Try reading Dr. Robert Morse's book "The Miracle Detox Sourcebook". It's all about alkalizing with fruit. Essentially Melons and Berries are the most alkaline but grapes are good too.

Oh my bad, you did cite one guy. "Doctor" Morse is a quack who fakes his credentials and gives laughably bad advice to cancer patients.



sycasey
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BearsWiin said:

OaktownBear said:

heartofthebear said:

OaktownBear said:

heartofthebear said:

sycasey said:

I don't see this as an either/or. You can eat right and exercise and ALSO take the damn vaccine.

Unless you're a front-line health care worker then you're probably only getting it after it's already been tested on a bunch of people.
Correct, it's not an either/or.
We all have to make our own cost/benefit analyses for these things.
And we have to assess risks.

Not all of the above have the same risks.


Except if I fail to eat right, my cost benefit analysis doesn't lead to infants getting measles.

Sorry but have a care about your fellow man and get the vaccine.
Got it.
I don't assess risks the same way.
And I don't think I care about my fellow man any less than you do, although I'm sure you have formed that opinion of me.
Just curious. How do you explain newborns who have nothing but breast milk getting viruses? How do you explain infants who have nothing but breast milk with a little fruit and vegetables? Their bodies haven't been corrupted by all these spices and meats and such. If anything, breast milk is shown to boost the immune system. Why do they get the viruses?
Mom's clogged lymph is expressed through the breastmilk, duh

Having a conversation with hotb is like a Martian talking to a fungo, exhibit 89376b



Oh by the way, HOTB's favorite guru has some advice about this too. He tells mothers to stop breastfeeding their babies as soon as possible or to make their own baby formula, because their breast milk could be "acidic."



This really makes me angry. It's truly dangerous advice given to mothers when they are at their most emotionally vulnerable (caring for a newborn). This advice will literally kill babies. F*** this quack.
concordtom
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bearister said:

heartofthebear said:

You are working off the same knowledge tree as I am! Try reading Dr. Robert Morse's book "The Miracle Detox Sourcebook". It's all about alkalizing with fruit. Essentially Melons and Berries are the most alkaline but grapes are good too.


From the film The Road to Wellville:

"Oh, no, no, I can't eat fifteen gallons of yoghurt."
-William Lightbody

"Oh, it's not going in that end, Mr. Lightbody."
-Dr. John Harvey Kellogg

"My own stools, Sir, are gigantic and have no more odor than a hot biscuit."
-Dr. John Harvey Kellogg


"The enemas take some getting used to, but, in time, you'll learn to look forward to them like an old friend with a cold nose."
- Endymion Hart-Jones





I found some old letters of my great grandmother's written in 1970 and she talks about getting regular enemas. I was like, HUH???!?!!!
She was born about 1890 in Waseca MN.
bearister
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All 4 of my grandparents were born in the late 1880's.
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Kaworu
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concordtom said:

bearister said:

heartofthebear said:

You are working off the same knowledge tree as I am! Try reading Dr. Robert Morse's book "The Miracle Detox Sourcebook". It's all about alkalizing with fruit. Essentially Melons and Berries are the most alkaline but grapes are good too.


From the film The Road to Wellville:

"Oh, no, no, I can't eat fifteen gallons of yoghurt."
-William Lightbody

"Oh, it's not going in that end, Mr. Lightbody."
-Dr. John Harvey Kellogg

"My own stools, Sir, are gigantic and have no more odor than a hot biscuit."
-Dr. John Harvey Kellogg


"The enemas take some getting used to, but, in time, you'll learn to look forward to them like an old friend with a cold nose."
- Endymion Hart-Jones





I found some old letters of my great grandmother's written in 1970 and she talks about getting regular enemas. I was like, HUH???!?!!!
She was born about 1890 in Waseca MN.
Oaktownbear still does enemas, but that stick is still up his ass
heartofthebear
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OaktownBear said:

heartofthebear said:

OaktownBear said:

Anarchistbear said:

I wonder if all those native Americans wiped out by imported European pathogens had dietary problems.


Exactly
Actually they did have dietary problems.
Many peoples living tribally without benefit of agriculture and without availability of fresh produce in the winter had to rely on hunting. Meat acidifies the body to a great extent and introduces microbes that invite disease. The reason why there were not so many major pandemics back then is that migration and population was limited.

These days, we have the capability of controlling our diet, which is a great luxury compared to our long history. We should take advantage of it.

I have a great respect for the native Americans but diet is not one of them. And many today are suffering from diabetes.

It is under-reported that early Europeans in the America's prior to the pilgrims were pretty brutal, enslaving the natives to help them acquire gold. Columbus' motivation for coming to America was gold. He was in terrible debt and the queen sponsored his trip for the purposes of getting gold.

It's possible that the rape, torture and enslavement of the people's weakened them genetically and physically and made them more susceptible to disease.

In any case, there is no evidence that a peaceful co-existence between Europeans and Natives in America with both eating a plant based diet would have resulted in the Natives being wiped out by disease.

So I'm not sure what your point is exactly.
This is why I should not come on this site. It just kills any shred of faith I have in humanity. I have no idea where you have gotten any of the above. It is so completely wrong. I have a degree in Anthropology. Your view of Native Americans is plain ignorant and you cannot write that and then say you respect them.

1. Their diet today when the few that are left have been shoved onto reservations, their cultures have been destroyed and the land they have is the worst possible land bears no resemblance to what they had before. Native Americans on reservations are dirt poor, have terrible diets, and alcoholism is rampant. Their diabetes today has nothing to do with anything.

2. Native Americans were not monolithic. They were many cultures just as in Europe. But the vast majority were not hunter gatherers living "tribally" without agriculture. There were large scale cities all over North and South America. Not just the Mayans and the Aztecs and the Incans. All over. Major cities as in the same size as European cities. The image of them huddled in fields in tepees is bullshyte.

3. Native Americans were absolute masters of agriculture. Their ability to cross breed plants, fruits and vegetables into higher quality crops was light years ahead of anything in the old world. Their food quickly replaced much of the European diet because it was so much better. Have you ever seen the original corn plant? It basically looks like a blade of wheat. They created corn, tomatoes and many, many fruits and vegetables. These are not things they picked from the natural environment. They bred many, many species. They had plenty of crops and most had an overwhelmingly plant based diet. They had very few domesticated animals because the animals in North America were not suited for domestication. Outside of the bison, on the North American plains they did not rely very much on big game.

4. You have two continents worth of varied cultures with varied diets. Much of those continents have temperate weather year round that are suitable for growing food year round. And your premise here is that none of them got it right. They all had bad diets. That is what you are going with? Actually that is what you are going with world wide. That in the history of mankind, no one has ever put together your diet. Indians (from India) eat almost entirely plant based, but, oh, yes. They eat spices. Every disease that has traversed the world would have been wiped out if only we had better diets.

5. Why were Native Americans not subject to pandemics before contact with Europeans? See humans living with domesticated livestock is a petri dish for the development of diseases. Very few cultures outside of Europe were reliant on livestock prior to contact because most animals that were easily domesticated were in Europe and West Asia. Quite simply, Europeans got the diseases first. They had built up their immune systems. What happened to Native Americans also happened to Africans. They had no immunity to the large numbers of diseases Europeans had in their population so it ran roughshod through them.

6. It is well known that Native Americans were enslaved, especially by the Spanish and treated poorly. No, it is not possible that a tiny drop in the gene pool from a few Spaniards raping some people caused genetic weakness in two continents worth of millions and millions of people. That is ridiculous. And in any case, the impact of diseases was pretty much immediate from contact, even with Columbus.

7. Almost no hunter gatherer cultures had a largely meat, fish, and/or dairy based diet.

8. Meat doesn't acidify the body. Too much meat acidifies the body. Americans eat too much meat.

9. Evolution works to adapt the body to the diet it has available to it. You feed a dog all plants and it will get sick. Evolution is a slow process. It isn't that slow. For instance, adult humans by and large are not designed to eat dairy. But adult humans that come from dairy consuming cultures (Europeans) have adapted to consume dairy. Their bodies break down dairy in a way that other populations don't. That is over about 10K years. The human body is not adapted for the diet you are proposing. For literally 3 million years, humans and their ancestors have eaten a largely plant based diet supplemented with meat. Get naturally occurring fat and sugar wherever you can, and largely eat grains, nuts, roots and vegetables. Here is the thing. Our brains started growing. Brains require tons and tons of energy. They are a huge calorie suck.
You cannot grow them without lots of calories. --Calories do not provide energy by themselves. The body burns carbohydrates (sugars) to create energy. Calories have to be converted to sugars to be useful, especially for the brain. The brain can also burn fats. It cannot burn proteins for energy. Proteins require a ton of energy to break down into carbohydrates. That is why a lion has to nap for about 24 hours after eating a kill. And lions are much better adapted to eat meat than we are. Proteins are chains of amino acids. Animal proteins are proteins with already constructed chains for the welfare of the dead animal's system. Our bodies have to break that chain down and reconstruct it for whatever chain of amino acids are needed for us. The same thing is true for plant based proteins.
Gorilla's eat largely leaves.
Chimps have a more varied diet and will occasionally grab a monkey.
Our ancestors couldn't do that. They needed a source of easily digestible food to support their brains.--I don't disagree that they needed a source of easily digestible food. I think most folks, meat and non-meat eaters would agree that fruit is the most easily digestible food, and, because it is a carbohydrate and naturally occurring sugar, is most easily converted to energy.
So literally 4-6 million years ago they started scavenging meat, because basically they had to. Our brains got bigger and bigger. We needed more calories that were easy to digest. So well over a million years ago, homo erectus, with a much bigger brain than its predecessors,
learned how to cook its food.--The reasons why we started cooking food is open to debate. Cooking food kills enzymes and does not provide more energy to the body. But cooking food acidifies the body. An acid body is a warmer body. There is evidence that humans have gone through ice ages and mass extinctions and migrated away from the equatorial regions where they may have needed meat and cooked food to survive because of lack of food and the need for warmth. I am not denying that meat is needed to survive through certain crises. Right now we are in the type of crisis where the opposite is needed. I am not again stmeat or killing animals. I just feel it is unhealthy and inappropriate in this phase of our history.
Cooking food essentially prepares it for easy digestion.
We could not have evolved as we did, specifically the brain that we did, without supplementing our food with meat and by cooking both meat and plants.
See above, again we certainly needed meat and cooked food to survive at time. That does not mean we needed it to evolve. Surviving and evolving are not identical.
You eat a diet of raw fruits and vegetables in nature you die and the human species with you. Our bodies are not evolved to eat the diet you are proposing.--Sorry OTB, I just find this comment too far away from my position (180 degrees) to know where to begin. Maybe you could explain your "in nature" phrase. We are not "in nature" so much these days and, because of that, we have the opportunity to do things differently than we have historically. The whole context of our current existence is not represented in our known history. We have huge pollution and population issues, huge climate change issues and mass extinctions due to major destruction of portions of wildlife habitat. We have massive #s of displaced refugees due to the degree of destruction war is causing. Large #s of displaced and war torn people are getting cholera and other diseases due to lack of clean water.

You have to go back 4-6 million years to find an ancestor that had a diet that was raw plant based. You have to go back infinity to find an ancestor that lived on raw fruit because I'm pretty sure we don't have any in our lineage.
It makes no sense that the human body would run most efficiently on a diet that it has never had. The diet you are championing is counter to the diet humans evolved to process. --the diet is not counter to the diet humans evolved. I am not championing a no meat/protein diet in general. I am saying that, when needing to fight a virus like this, it is better to do a detox diet temporarily and that means the diet I am recommending. It is interesting that you go to history and logic. But history and logic does not communicate to cells. Biochemistry does. With all due respect, I don't think most people go to an Anthropologist for health or dietary advice not do I think they would be put off because a biochemist recommended they eat differently than the bulk of the gene pool has for the last few million years. So it doesn't make sense. Fine, studies show that everybody in the world now has things in their blood that no humans had a few centuries ago. These are toxics from plastics and other industrial and chemical contaminants that have worked their way around the globe and up through the food chain. Our bodies are dealing with a different biochemical reality than those that were trying to grow a brain or survive a winter or migrate north. And the efficiency of our bodies can be enhanced through modifications in our historical diet to match our current circumstances just as the introduction of cooked food and meat helped us survive.


Quote:

In any case, there is no evidence that a peaceful co-existence between Europeans and Natives in America with both eating a plant based diet would have resulted in the Natives being wiped out by disease.
This is like saying (for Harry Potter fans) that I have no evidence that the resurrection stone doesn't exist unless I test every stone on earth to see if it brings back the dead. I have no evidence that feeding the Native Americans Froot Loops and Twinkies wouldn't have stopped the disease by your reasoning. Only I do.
Never in the history of the world have communicable diseases been stopped by diet. --because, by definition a disease is something outside the body that invades and gets spread. So, what we have here is a protein that penetrates a cell and propagates and then destroys the cell. The process puts strain on the lymph system, which is responsible for eliminating dead cells in part. This initiates an auto immune response where, essentially, the immune system goes into overdrive because the lymph system cannot handle it. This is because our lymph systems are not in good shape in many cases due to diet and other factors that add toxicity to the body. The body then starts attacking itself, eventually resulting in weakening and failing organs and tissues. This is what causes hospitalization and death.

Over and over they have been stopped by vaccines or herd immunity. We know how viruses spread. Diet is not a key vector in the spread. Again you are relying on history rather than biochemistry. I am skeptical of how a vaccine is supposed to work on folks whose immune systems and/or lymph system is compromised because the vaccine relies on a working immune system to function. It may be that past vaccines worked better because more people had healthy lymph systems. I don't think that is the case now because of the habits of most Americans. We live in a society that is toxic (toxic people, toxic habits and toxic industries. As things become increasingly toxic, we need to deal with that first and foremost.

Your experts are not experts. They tell a good story. (and mostly make a lot of cash) Largely they take truth - eating healthy makes you healthier and boosts your immune system - add a bunch of stuff that sounds good to people who don't understand the mechanisms, and then make even bigger claims.

You will not find a double blind study that supports their theories. --The folks at True North health clinic in Santa Rosa have been doing studies for a long time. Because of politics and funding limitations, they have had a hard time getting published but they have some studies now published in the New England journal of medicine. Admittedly, much of their focus is on intermittent fasting. So I will have to see what they can get for you on the dietary part of it. Both True North and Dr. Morse'' clinic have healed many people from major health conditions like chronic migraines, cancer, diabetes, heart disease.

You will not find a longitudinal study that supports their theories.

Do I think you actively don't care about your fellow man? No. That isn't enough. I'm sorry. You can be magnanimous that well we both believe what we believe and we both have experts. I won't be. Because we don't. There is no both siderism here. You don't have real experts. There is no scientific evidence to back up your claims. I'm happy to agree to disagree, but this is not an opinion thing. When it comes to vaccines I am right and you are wrong.
And your wrong kills people whether you want to believe it or not. --Just be aware that this kind of comment is the same kind of thing that Trump supporters are using to justify kidnapping the Michigan governor and other desperately one sided and extreme positions. I would suggest getting help for your codependency issues because they are clearly making you feel very desperate about this situation.

You cannot cure cancer with green juice. Yes you can and we have and the doctor could not explain what happened.
You cure it with cancer treatment. You cannot stop viruses with diet. They stop with herd immunity. That is brought on by vaccines or death. There is so much evidence for that fact that I should not have to have this discussion.

I respect your diet a lot. I think you are probably one of the healthiest people here. I think a lot of your reasoning is off, but for the most part it is infinitely better than most diets people in America eat. But there are limitation to what diet can do. Diet is not a replacement for vaccines.
OTB, this is quite a lot and I'll have to get back to you when I have been able to gather together research because I think your comments deserve that kind of attention. I will say that I read your comments in full and I understand them. And I recognize that you will inevitably have more knowledge than me on Native American history and, I stand corrected by implying that Native Americans were hunter gatherers only and ate primarily meat.

To be clear, what I meant was that they did not have access to fresh produce all year round like we do and that made them have to hunt certain times of the year. If that is incorrect, that is news to me. I am speaking generally because that is how the issue was presented. The issue was presented by the monolithic comment that Native American's died because their bad diet made them susceptible to European disease. It was a sarcastic comment that you said "exactly" to. The comment referred to Native American's in general, or at least all of those who died from diseases imported from the Europeans. In that sense it was monolithic. While I am heartened to hear from you about how much the natives thrived in big cities and how widespread and varied their cultures were, I never believed them to be monolithic.

Also, I don't know what I said to make you think that I thought the Native Americans today are unhealthy because of genetics or some character flaw. I am well aware of what has happened to them on reservations and that was part of my point. They have been abused in this country in various ways for centuries. The health conditions they have now are not to be blamed on them.

So, in summery in response to the points above:
1. I agree, I never said otherwise
2. I agree and did not mean to imply monolithic
3. I learned a lot here from you so thanks
4. This paragraph is hyperbolic, misrepresents my comments and makes sweeping generalizations. It seems it reflects an emotional state on your part not really anything I can respond to. But, to respond to the part that I can, it is not weather or not Natives could eat vegan, it is whether or not they did. And, in referencing #8, on your list, what constitutes too much to create acidification needs to be defined.
5. Interesting that you admit that livestock proximity to humans has a big impact on the creation of diseases and somehow my ideas about diet and meat are not relevant to the discussion of how to address them.
6. Again, we agree. I was not suggesting that it was likely that disease happened as a result of that, I was throwing it out as a possible indirect contributing factor to the overall susceptibility of NAs.
7. What might help here is to get a chart of each NA culture and get a % breakdown of the various foods in their diet. And also get a % breakdown of the % of people killed from European diseases. Since you are the expert, I'll defer to you for that information.
8. This means nothing without specific %s. When is it too much? Well, I can tell, that can't be answered. Because it is not the meat alone that acidifies the body. Other plant based proteins do too. It is the total acidification at issue, not each specific source. There are many vegetarian sources of acidification as well.
9. Comments inserted into the quoted portion above.
heartofthebear
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concordtom said:

Bearprof said:


The side effects reflect the inflammatory response that jumpstarts the immune response. It can be seen as an indication that the vaccine is working. Let's all show a little spine.


It's a great point, and I have no problem with that.
The problem is that the vaccine is associated in some ways with trump and that stench needs to air out.
It is illogical, but in some way, a corner of my mind sees him blending a cocktail of vomit, slapping a sticker on it, and paying off the approval process doctors to say "it works".
Like, trump probably figured out a way to make money off any vaccine, and of course it's going to fund his lifestyle prostitutes in jets.
Put him in jail, have someone I trust overseeing it, and then I'll listen.
Otherwise, with trump, it's Opposite Day. Everything he says is a lie. He goes out of his way to lie about things that don't need to be lied about.
He is unhinged from reality.

When was the last time he played at h with Baron on the WH lawn, took him fishing, or even on one of the many golfing days?

Horrible father. Horrible person. Die already, please!

Then I'll get a vaccine.
I appreciate what you are saying but, honestly, I don't think Trump has much to do with the vaccine. I think that is driven by other forces. If that is your concern, I would take it.
heartofthebear
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sycasey said:

BearsWiin said:

OaktownBear said:

heartofthebear said:

OaktownBear said:

heartofthebear said:

sycasey said:

I don't see this as an either/or. You can eat right and exercise and ALSO take the damn vaccine.

Unless you're a front-line health care worker then you're probably only getting it after it's already been tested on a bunch of people.
Correct, it's not an either/or.
We all have to make our own cost/benefit analyses for these things.
And we have to assess risks.

Not all of the above have the same risks.


Except if I fail to eat right, my cost benefit analysis doesn't lead to infants getting measles.

Sorry but have a care about your fellow man and get the vaccine.
Got it.
I don't assess risks the same way.
And I don't think I care about my fellow man any less than you do, although I'm sure you have formed that opinion of me.
Just curious. How do you explain newborns who have nothing but breast milk getting viruses? How do you explain infants who have nothing but breast milk with a little fruit and vegetables? Their bodies haven't been corrupted by all these spices and meats and such. If anything, breast milk is shown to boost the immune system. Why do they get the viruses?
Mom's clogged lymph is expressed through the breastmilk, duh

Having a conversation with hotb is like a Martian talking to a fungo, exhibit 89376b



Oh by the way, HOTB's favorite guru has some advice about this too. He tells mothers to stop breastfeeding their babies as soon as possible or to make their own baby formula, because their breast milk could be "acidic."



This really makes me angry. It's truly dangerous advice given to mothers when they are at their most emotionally vulnerable (caring for a newborn). This advice will literally kill babies. F*** this quack.
Go ahead and sue him then. One problem with social media is that the messenger or his "guru" is blamed. The fact is lots of professionals in the health field have been studying plant based, acid/alkaline, and other detoxing diets. If you would like, I can provide a very long bibliography with links etc. and you can poopoo all of them. Morse has healed multiple people. Some have not done as well because their symptoms got worse and they couldn't deal with that, which I understand. But detoxing will make symptoms worse for a while and sometimes too long, before you get better. Because detoxing reintroduces toxins into the blood as they get leached out from places where it is stored in the body. It can be frightening and unpleasant. So be it. It is not for everyone. And Morse tells people to back off if they have to. His diet is only designed for folks that want to detox. He is not pushing it on anybody, nor am I. But, at the same time, I don't want a vaccine pushed on me.

BTW he also acknowledges the need for western medical responses when, for instance cancer, has gone too far to remedy any other way.

FYI, I don't have a "guru". I don't sole source my information. And I don't preach anything that has not worked for me personally multiple times.
AunBear89
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Whereas you, Ralph Wiggum, have your head up yours...
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -- (maybe) Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
sycasey
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heartofthebear said:

If you would like, I can provide a very long bibliography with links etc. and you can poopoo all of them.

Please do. I just followed up on the first one you referenced and found he was a dangerous quack. This doesn't make me confident about the rest of your sources.
B.A. Bearacus
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BearsWiin
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sycasey said:

heartofthebear said:

If you would like, I can provide a very long bibliography with links etc. and you can poopoo all of them.

Please do. I just followed up on the first one you referenced and found he was a dangerous quack. This doesn't make me confident about the rest of your sources.
You can generally disqualify anybody who uses the word "detox" seriously
heartofthebear
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BearsWiin said:

sycasey said:

heartofthebear said:

If you would like, I can provide a very long bibliography with links etc. and you can poopoo all of them.

Please do. I just followed up on the first one you referenced and found he was a dangerous quack. This doesn't make me confident about the rest of your sources.
You can generally disqualify anybody who uses the word "detox" seriously
The reason?
heartofthebear
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sycasey said:

heartofthebear said:

If you would like, I can provide a very long bibliography with links etc. and you can poopoo all of them.

Please do. I just followed up on the first one you referenced and found he was a dangerous quack. This doesn't make me confident about the rest of your sources.
sycasey: I will do this. Please forgive me but I'm having a problem with a resident on my property right now and it is getting late. I also have to deal with follow up on fire damage on my property and a number of other things as we prepare to move out. I have pulled out my files from the research I've done to help remind me to get back to you. I can provide names, publications, websites and DVD documentaries. I don't think these people are going to be weighing in necessarily on vaccines. They will be weighing in on the power of diet in health and healing major diseases. I have just begun reaching out to them to see what they feel about vaccines and covid19 but that will be a longer process yet.

Most of my information comes from Robert Morse (I am referring to his book not his videos), Colin Campbell (The China Study) and True North Health Clinic in Santa Rosa in addition to my personal experience, especially since 2015.

So, if I forget for some reason, I invite you to PM me to remind me. In the meantime, I am kind of done with this thread otherwise and have posted an alternative thread on the OT board so that a different narrative can be discussed.

I am not sure why you think Morse is "dangerous" or why you use that term. Has he harmed anyone? Did he say mothers shouldn't breast feed at all or did he say they shouldn't breast feed too long. I had a friend once who was breast feeding her kids well into age 5. It was kind of weird. Bonding with the mother and breast feeding is critical early on and I don't think he would suggest otherwise. Is there any thing else that he is suggesting that is dangerous?

Speaking of dangerous, do you more people die after or during hospitalization than any other medically related cause? It's not just people who were deathly ill that went in, it's other people too. My mother went in for a broken hip and died. We had a friend, a middle aged mother die in the hospital after going in for something minor. Are hospitals full of dangerous quacks? Things happen when you are healthcare professional and it's easy to assume that it is because of the person that something bad happened. So why single out Dr. Morse? Like many professionals, he's had his successes and failures. He's admitted that hasn't been able to help everyone and that some should seek medical care. You won't find many doctors admitting that they can't help their patient and would be better served by a naturopath.

One thing I know about Morse is that he lives and breaths service. He has spent his life serving people who are sick and helping answer questions on the internet. He runs a clinic, trains students and has healed many who weren't getting any help in the normal medical field. Does that matter? To me it does.

BearsWiin
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heartofthebear said:

BearsWiin said:

sycasey said:

heartofthebear said:

If you would like, I can provide a very long bibliography with links etc. and you can poopoo all of them.

Please do. I just followed up on the first one you referenced and found he was a dangerous quack. This doesn't make me confident about the rest of your sources.
You can generally disqualify anybody who uses the word "detox" seriously
The reason?
It's a trendy meaningless catchword for something the liver and kidneys do naturally, all the time, designed to do it

You want to waste your time and money on food charlatans when all you really need to do is eat something resembling a Mediterranean diet and get regular exercise, go for it. But get the f***ing vaccine because that's a public health issue. It's not just about you, it's about everybody around you, too
sycasey
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heartofthebear said:

I am not sure why you think Morse is "dangerous" or why you use that term. Has he harmed anyone? Did he say mothers shouldn't breast feed at all or did he say they shouldn't breast feed too long. I had a friend once who was breast feeding her kids well into age 5. It was kind of weird. Bonding with the mother and breast feeding is critical early on and I don't think he would suggest otherwise. Is there any thing else that he is suggesting that is dangerous?
It's all there in the videos, man. Words out of Morse's own mouth. He tells a breastfeeding mother to stop doing it and start feeding the baby with a home-made formula. The ingredients he gives for said formula basically amount to a fruit smoothie. That is NOT adequate nutrition for an infant. Period. That is dangerous advice.

He tells a severely underweight woman who is currently still breastfeeding a child and who has recently lost TWENTY POUNDS while following Morse's diet to just keep at it. That is dangerous advice.

Hopefully these people didn't follow Morse's bad advice. We'll never know because Morse doesn't actually do any follow-up with people who had no success with his methods. But he is presenting himself as a "doctor" (he doesn't have a real doctorate) and clearly a lot of people trust him when he peddles this bulls***. That's why he's dangerous.

Given all of this, I would suggest you reconsider where you are getting your information.
heartofthebear
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sycasey said:

heartofthebear said:

I am not sure why you think Morse is "dangerous" or why you use that term. Has he harmed anyone? Did he say mothers shouldn't breast feed at all or did he say they shouldn't breast feed too long. I had a friend once who was breast feeding her kids well into age 5. It was kind of weird. Bonding with the mother and breast feeding is critical early on and I don't think he would suggest otherwise. Is there any thing else that he is suggesting that is dangerous?
It's all there in the videos, man. Words out of Morse's own mouth. He tells a breastfeeding mother to stop doing it and start feeding the baby with a home-made formula. The ingredients he gives for said formula basically amount to a fruit smoothie. That is NOT adequate nutrition for an infant. Period. That is dangerous advice.

He tells a severely underweight woman who is currently still breastfeeding a child and who has recently lost TWENTY POUNDS while following Morse's diet to just keep at it. That is dangerous advice.

Hopefully these people didn't follow Morse's bad advice. We'll never know because Morse doesn't actually do any follow-up with people who had no success with his methods. But he is presenting himself as a "doctor" (he doesn't have a real doctorate) and clearly a lot of people trust him when he peddles this bulls***. That's why he's dangerous.

Given all of this, I would suggest you reconsider where you are getting your information.
I'm confused as to why you think that a formula with fruit has less nutrition than breast milk and/or why it is dangerous to suggest it. What does breast milk have in it that the child needs to grow that isn't in fruit even more?

Here's one difference. Morse isn't forcing people to do anything they don't want to do or don't feel comfortable doing. He is making suggestions for people who are having trouble under the normal health care system.
How old was the baby?
How old is the right age for weening?
What is the appropriate weight for a mother breastfeeding?

I'm not saying your wrong, just questions.

It's interesting though, that you are clearly emotional about this and focused on it when regular medicine does far more dangerous things. Examples include:
  • Not enough testing to determine a correct diagnosis
  • Chemotherapy--most end up dying
  • Radiation treatment--most end up dying
  • prescription drugs
  • surgeries--many unnecessary and irreversible

Don't you think folks should have an alternative?
heartofthebear
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BearsWiin said:

heartofthebear said:

BearsWiin said:

sycasey said:

heartofthebear said:

If you would like, I can provide a very long bibliography with links etc. and you can poopoo all of them.

Please do. I just followed up on the first one you referenced and found he was a dangerous quack. This doesn't make me confident about the rest of your sources.
You can generally disqualify anybody who uses the word "detox" seriously
The reason?
It's a trendy meaningless catchword for something the liver and kidneys do naturally, all the time, designed to do it

You want to waste your time and money on food charlatans when all you really need to do is eat something resembling a Mediterranean diet and get regular exercise, go for it. But get the f***ing vaccine because that's a public health issue. It's not just about you, it's about everybody around you, too
The liver and kidneys do it naturally if they are fully operational. Based on SAD, a great degree of alcohol and drug use and toxins in the environment, I would suggest to you that most people do not have fully working kidneys and liver. Of course the regular medical field is not going to really diagnose that because their standards for "normal" are based on national averages and the nation is pretty sick.

Please don't tell me how to spend my time and money. I'm sure everyone makes their own choices about that and each of us has had successes and failures when trusting people. Many have had failures after trusting the medical system, which is highly impacted and influenced by major industries like meat, dairy and pharmaceuticals. It is only recently that western medicine has even tried to focus on preventive medicine practices. It still largely ignores the lymph system which kidneys, livers and other organs/glands depend on for proper functioning.

As far as the vaccine goes, I am done discussing that out of context.
I started another thread where I have provided context, which includes issues of when and who should be taking the vaccine right away.
I never said I would not take the vaccine at all. I said I would not take it right away.
heartofthebear
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sycasey said:

heartofthebear said:

I am not sure why you think Morse is "dangerous" or why you use that term. Has he harmed anyone? Did he say mothers shouldn't breast feed at all or did he say they shouldn't breast feed too long. I had a friend once who was breast feeding her kids well into age 5. It was kind of weird. Bonding with the mother and breast feeding is critical early on and I don't think he would suggest otherwise. Is there any thing else that he is suggesting that is dangerous?
It's all there in the videos, man. Words out of Morse's own mouth. He tells a breastfeeding mother to stop doing it and start feeding the baby with a home-made formula. The ingredients he gives for said formula basically amount to a fruit smoothie. That is NOT adequate nutrition for an infant. Period. That is dangerous advice.

He tells a severely underweight woman who is currently still breastfeeding a child and who has recently lost TWENTY POUNDS while following Morse's diet to just keep at it. That is dangerous advice.

Hopefully these people didn't follow Morse's bad advice. We'll never know because Morse doesn't actually do any follow-up with people who had no success with his methods. But he is presenting himself as a "doctor" (he doesn't have a real doctorate) and clearly a lot of people trust him when he peddles this bulls***. That's why he's dangerous. Most people know he's a naturopath. And I'm sure his website lists him as such. Is he claiming he is an MD anywhere on his videos or literature? LOL, Dr. is a term many use without being an MD.

Given all of this, I would suggest you reconsider where you are getting your information.
sycasey
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heartofthebear said:

sycasey said:

heartofthebear said:

I am not sure why you think Morse is "dangerous" or why you use that term. Has he harmed anyone? Did he say mothers shouldn't breast feed at all or did he say they shouldn't breast feed too long. I had a friend once who was breast feeding her kids well into age 5. It was kind of weird. Bonding with the mother and breast feeding is critical early on and I don't think he would suggest otherwise. Is there any thing else that he is suggesting that is dangerous?
It's all there in the videos, man. Words out of Morse's own mouth. He tells a breastfeeding mother to stop doing it and start feeding the baby with a home-made formula. The ingredients he gives for said formula basically amount to a fruit smoothie. That is NOT adequate nutrition for an infant. Period. That is dangerous advice.

He tells a severely underweight woman who is currently still breastfeeding a child and who has recently lost TWENTY POUNDS while following Morse's diet to just keep at it. That is dangerous advice.

Hopefully these people didn't follow Morse's bad advice. We'll never know because Morse doesn't actually do any follow-up with people who had no success with his methods. But he is presenting himself as a "doctor" (he doesn't have a real doctorate) and clearly a lot of people trust him when he peddles this bulls***. That's why he's dangerous.

Given all of this, I would suggest you reconsider where you are getting your information.
I'm confused as to why you think that a formula with fruit has less nutrition than breast milk and/or why it is dangerous to suggest it. What does breast milk have in it that the child needs to grow that isn't in fruit even more?
Is this a serious question? You need protein, fats, iron, etc. Babies especially need those things because they are growing so fast. Fruit doesn't have any of that.

Honestly, I'm not sure I should even continue this conversation with you if you're going to ask questions like that.
BearsWiin
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heartofthebear said:

BearsWiin said:

heartofthebear said:

BearsWiin said:

sycasey said:

heartofthebear said:

If you would like, I can provide a very long bibliography with links etc. and you can poopoo all of them.

Please do. I just followed up on the first one you referenced and found he was a dangerous quack. This doesn't make me confident about the rest of your sources.
You can generally disqualify anybody who uses the word "detox" seriously
The reason?
It's a trendy meaningless catchword for something the liver and kidneys do naturally, all the time, designed to do it

You want to waste your time and money on food charlatans when all you really need to do is eat something resembling a Mediterranean diet and get regular exercise, go for it. But get the f***ing vaccine because that's a public health issue. It's not just about you, it's about everybody around you, too
The liver and kidneys do it naturally if they are fully operational. Based on SAD, a great degree of alcohol and drug use and toxins in the environment, I would suggest to you that most people do not have fully working kidneys and liver. Of course the regular medical field is not going to really diagnose that because their standards for "normal" are based on national averages and the nation is pretty sick.

Please don't tell me how to spend my time and money. I'm sure everyone makes their own choices about that and each of us has had successes and failures when trusting people. Many have had failures after trusting the medical system, which is highly impacted and influenced by major industries like meat, dairy and pharmaceuticals. It is only recently that western medicine has even tried to focus on preventive medicine practices. It still largely ignores the lymph system which kidneys, livers and other organs/glands depend on for proper functioning.

As far as the vaccine goes, I am done discussing that out of context.
I started another thread where I have provided context, which includes issues of when and who should be taking the vaccine right away.
I never said I would not take the vaccine at all. I said I would not take it right away.

I haven't done that. I'm mocking your long-winded and militant embrace of charlatanism caused by your lack of understanding of the scientific method, which you clearly display in just about every post you've made here

Smoothies for everybody!

fin
sycasey
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heartofthebear said:

It's interesting though, that you are clearly emotional about this and focused on it when regular medicine does far more dangerous things. Examples include:
  • Not enough testing to determine a correct diagnosis
  • Chemotherapy--most end up dying
  • Radiation treatment--most end up dying
  • prescription drugs
  • surgeries--many unnecessary and irreversible

Don't you think folks should have an alternative?
People who have chemo end up dying because they HAVE CANCER. That doesn't mean other cancer treatments are better.

I think improvements to people's diets could possibly help with preventing cancer in the first place, so in that sense I'm not against those who advocate for more plant-based diets and away from processed foods, etc. But charlatans like Morse will also suggest his dietary methods as a TREATMENT for someone who already has cancer, and that is dangerously bad advice. If you have cancer, listen to the real doctors.
concordtom
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bearister said:

All 4 of my grandparents were born in the late 1880's.
Woah - that's some old parentage.
All 4 of my grandparents were born between 1916 and 1919!
Me, 1968.
That's like 50 years, so avg age of parents is 25.

You about '55 if I recall.
That's like 68 yrs or avg 34 avg. Eh, not too bad for the times.

I have a half-sister whose parents combined age was 109. My mom was 44 and my step-dad 65!

I stand corrected.

Question: What about your great grandparents? Where were they and what were they doing during the civil war? I always find that period of history interesting.
My wife had a ggg grandfather who wrote a book about his years in the Union Cavalry. Good stuff to read first hand account, knowing they aren't just some stranger talking, but family - makes it all the more real that they lived through these things. Our lives are so very different today. My, what a different a few generations makes. I wonder what several gens into the future will be like - blow our minds, no doubt!
heartofthebear
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BearsWiin said:

heartofthebear said:

BearsWiin said:

heartofthebear said:

BearsWiin said:

sycasey said:

heartofthebear said:

If you would like, I can provide a very long bibliography with links etc. and you can poopoo all of them.

Please do. I just followed up on the first one you referenced and found he was a dangerous quack. This doesn't make me confident about the rest of your sources.
You can generally disqualify anybody who uses the word "detox" seriously
The reason?
It's a trendy meaningless catchword for something the liver and kidneys do naturally, all the time, designed to do it

You want to waste your time and money on food charlatans when all you really need to do is eat something resembling a Mediterranean diet and get regular exercise, go for it. But get the f***ing vaccine because that's a public health issue. It's not just about you, it's about everybody around you, too
The liver and kidneys do it naturally if they are fully operational. Based on SAD, a great degree of alcohol and drug use and toxins in the environment, I would suggest to you that most people do not have fully working kidneys and liver. Of course the regular medical field is not going to really diagnose that because their standards for "normal" are based on national averages and the nation is pretty sick.

Please don't tell me how to spend my time and money. I'm sure everyone makes their own choices about that and each of us has had successes and failures when trusting people. Many have had failures after trusting the medical system, which is highly impacted and influenced by major industries like meat, dairy and pharmaceuticals. It is only recently that western medicine has even tried to focus on preventive medicine practices. It still largely ignores the lymph system which kidneys, livers and other organs/glands depend on for proper functioning.

As far as the vaccine goes, I am done discussing that out of context.
I started another thread where I have provided context, which includes issues of when and who should be taking the vaccine right away.
I never said I would not take the vaccine at all. I said I would not take it right away.

I haven't done that. I'm mocking your long-winded and militant embrace of charlatanism caused by your lack of understanding of the scientific method, which you clearly display in just about every post you've made here

Smoothies for everybody!

fin
I'm sorry, that is a character attack and a defamation statement. Either be respectful or don't say anything at all. I have been respectful, nowhere have a been militant and nowhere have I shown a disrespect for science. I have a degree, I have done research and I have read scientific studies. Usually, when I read studies, I find that the finding do not meet the standard based on the "science" used. So I guess my standards for science are somewhat higher than many scientists. Really good science is hard to find because usually you need a 30 year longitudinal study when it comes to people. Funding for that is rare and usually the only ones doing it are major industries with a conflict of interest. I remember when one "study" showed a link between broccoli and cancer and everybody started thinking Broccoli caused cancer.

So, the additional problem is that most studies are correlative, which is pretty useless in most cases but yet is used to make a hell of a lot of decisions and policy.

But what do I know, I'm way down the rabbit hole with the charlatans wasting my money and time and militantly forcing people to eat grapes. LOL
concordtom
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heartofthebear said:

concordtom said:

Bearprof said:


The side effects reflect the inflammatory response that jumpstarts the immune response. It can be seen as an indication that the vaccine is working. Let's all show a little spine.


It's a great point, and I have no problem with that.
The problem is that the vaccine is associated in some ways with trump and that stench needs to air out.
It is illogical, but in some way, a corner of my mind sees him blending a cocktail of vomit, slapping a sticker on it, and paying off the approval process doctors to say "it works".
Like, trump probably figured out a way to make money off any vaccine, and of course it's going to fund his lifestyle prostitutes in jets.
Put him in jail, have someone I trust overseeing it, and then I'll listen.
Otherwise, with trump, it's Opposite Day. Everything he says is a lie. He goes out of his way to lie about things that don't need to be lied about.
He is unhinged from reality.

When was the last time he played at h with Baron on the WH lawn, took him fishing, or even on one of the many golfing days?

Horrible father. Horrible person. Die already, please!

Then I'll get a vaccine.
I appreciate what you are saying but, honestly, I don't think Trump has much to do with the vaccine. I think that is driven by other forces. If that is your concern, I would take it.
I'm sure that by the time my age/rank in line comes up, I will have learned much differently. Millions will have already taken the various vaccines, there will be lots of reporting on it. Biden will be President, and the discourse about it all will be extremely different.

Trump was seemingly plotting to release ANYTHING he could announce as a "vaccine" just before the election. That did not happen. In fact, if anything, it seems that the pharmas WAITED until AFTER the election to make any announcements - coincidence?

What I'm saying is, I'm sure my opinion will change in the next 3 months. I would not, could not, give Trump ANY glory for saving my life. He'll be gone. Lucky me.
concordtom
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sycasey said:

heartofthebear said:

I am not sure why you think Morse is "dangerous" or why you use that term. Has he harmed anyone? Did he say mothers shouldn't breast feed at all or did he say they shouldn't breast feed too long. I had a friend once who was breast feeding her kids well into age 5. It was kind of weird. Bonding with the mother and breast feeding is critical early on and I don't think he would suggest otherwise. Is there any thing else that he is suggesting that is dangerous?
It's all there in the videos, man. Words out of Morse's own mouth. He tells a breastfeeding mother to stop doing it and start feeding the baby with a home-made formula. The ingredients he gives for said formula basically amount to a fruit smoothie. That is NOT adequate nutrition for an infant. Period. That is dangerous advice.

My wife breast fed all 5 of our children for a year, (and me 2 or 3 times, too).
BearlyCareAnymore
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heartofthebear said:

sycasey said:

heartofthebear said:

I am not sure why you think Morse is "dangerous" or why you use that term. Has he harmed anyone? Did he say mothers shouldn't breast feed at all or did he say they shouldn't breast feed too long. I had a friend once who was breast feeding her kids well into age 5. It was kind of weird. Bonding with the mother and breast feeding is critical early on and I don't think he would suggest otherwise. Is there any thing else that he is suggesting that is dangerous?
It's all there in the videos, man. Words out of Morse's own mouth. He tells a breastfeeding mother to stop doing it and start feeding the baby with a home-made formula. The ingredients he gives for said formula basically amount to a fruit smoothie. That is NOT adequate nutrition for an infant. Period. That is dangerous advice.

He tells a severely underweight woman who is currently still breastfeeding a child and who has recently lost TWENTY POUNDS while following Morse's diet to just keep at it. That is dangerous advice.

Hopefully these people didn't follow Morse's bad advice. We'll never know because Morse doesn't actually do any follow-up with people who had no success with his methods. But he is presenting himself as a "doctor" (he doesn't have a real doctorate) and clearly a lot of people trust him when he peddles this bulls***. That's why he's dangerous.

Given all of this, I would suggest you reconsider where you are getting your information.
I'm confused as to why you think that a formula with fruit has less nutrition than breast milk and/or why it is dangerous to suggest it. What does breast milk have in it that the child needs to grow that isn't in fruit even more?

Here's one difference. Morse isn't forcing people to do anything they don't want to do or don't feel comfortable doing. He is making suggestions for people who are having trouble under the normal health care system.
How old was the baby?
How old is the right age for weening?
What is the appropriate weight for a mother breastfeeding?

I'm not saying your wrong, just questions.

It's interesting though, that you are clearly emotional about this and focused on it when regular medicine does far more dangerous things. Examples include:
  • Not enough testing to determine a correct diagnosis
  • Chemotherapy--most end up dying
  • Radiation treatment--most end up dying
  • prescription drugs
  • surgeries--many unnecessary and irreversible

Don't you think folks should have an alternative?

Folks should have alternatives. I believe in alternative medicines as a supplement to standard medicine, especially in areas where standard medicine does not do a great job. I don't believe in peddling con men. "Dr" Robert Morse is a con man. I do not see how you could see him as selfless after 30 seconds. He has a website where you can join his "private herbal club". He sells scads of merchandise. He had cybermonday deals. He's selling stuff.

I will just say this to everybody who might actually take what hotb is saying on vaccines seriously. He is getting his information from a person who sells cancer remedies and tells cancer patients that they should not engage in medical cancer treatment. He isn't supplementing. He is telling them to stop cancer treatment and buy his products. That is all you need to know.

Now, back to you hotb

Breastfeeding - The "natural" weaning time for a child is 3-5 years. Many cultures still do this. It is not the common social practice in our culture to the point that it is often not socially acceptable beyond 12-18 months. Breastmilk was designed for babies. It is designed to give the baby the exact nutrition it needs even to the detriment of the mother at times. Mother's actually take on much of the toxin screening. The breastmilk contains antibodies to build the immune system. There are lots of scientific studies showing the benefits of breastfeeding. Certainly, moving a child to a fruit based diet is horrible. It does not give them the nutrition they need. Point to a study that shows those children thrive. Not the anecdotal evidence you are so fond of.

Regarding cancer - It is absolutely untrue that "most end up dying". That is what people like Robert Morse tell you. Everyone of them is selling you something.

Side bar - Don't give me the "doctors want you to be sick so they can charge you for expensive treatment routine" So, I am a Kaiser member. After my insurance payment, I pay Kaiser very little for any treatment I get. If I had cancer and Kaiser could cure it by telling me to drink fruit juice, they would. They have zero incentive to give me expensive cancer treatment. They pay for it. I don't.

Back to "most end up dying" Yes. If you try and google the effectiveness of cancer treatments, you will get a slew of charlatans telling you that 98% of these people die. It is really hard to sift through to someone with actual statistics. And then, the statistics are complicated because they differ widely depending on the cancer, the stage, etc. But the statistics are there and what you are saying is completely untrue. And you will not find any statistics to back up increased survival rates for cancer patients who drink juice. Your constant anecdotal claims are things that no one that believes in science would actually say.

Of course Dr. Morse isn't forcing anyone to do anything. He is preying on those who are scared and desperate to sell them shyte. One look at his cheesy website makes that clear. (By the way. If you are looking for stocking stuffers - you can get Dr. Morse's Herbal Health Club Gift cards. Denominations range from $25 to $500.) Or you can just directly by the tinctures, salves, herbs, glycerins, capsules, glandulars, etc. that he sells on his website.

And, by the way, in true conman fashion, when a practitioner of Naturopathy, as "Dr" Morse is, actually leaves the field because they either figure out it is a con game or they knew all along and get a conscience, and they try to speak about the con, the attack lawyers come out to shut them up.

I would say that Dr. Morse is a medical Trump, but that would not be fair. Trump is nowhere near as sleazy

People should be emotional about these things. Cancer patients have a terrible thing to go through. Taking advantage of them to sell product is disgraceful. Doing it knowing you are giving them a much lower chance at survival (and believe me, he knows) is beyond. This is not about two "experts" with differing opinions. This is not about competing scientific theories. This is about science vs. a conman who uses pseudoscientific babble with no evidence to argue that scientifically proven treatments are ineffective and that what is effective is what he happens to be selling.

These guys ALWAYS go after 2 things. Cancer and vaccines. Cancer because people are scared or desperately looking for hope. And for some of them the chemotherapy is deeply hard and someone promising an easier solution than going through that is very alluring. Vaccines because you can always gin up fear in parents of young babies that something is going to harm their child.

So, yes, we are emotional. The suffering caused by people like this is immeasurable and in some cases it puts the health of us all at risk. So no, there is no room for debate on this. Stuff like this cannot be given the oxygen to spread.

I'm sorry you have been taken in by this. I hope you remain healthy. I hope if you ever get cancer, you get proper treatment and do well. I cannot pretend that your opinion on this should be give equal weight. It is as bad as bearlyamazing posting Russian propaganda.




BearlyCareAnymore
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concordtom said:

heartofthebear said:

concordtom said:

Bearprof said:


The side effects reflect the inflammatory response that jumpstarts the immune response. It can be seen as an indication that the vaccine is working. Let's all show a little spine.


It's a great point, and I have no problem with that.
The problem is that the vaccine is associated in some ways with trump and that stench needs to air out.
It is illogical, but in some way, a corner of my mind sees him blending a cocktail of vomit, slapping a sticker on it, and paying off the approval process doctors to say "it works".
Like, trump probably figured out a way to make money off any vaccine, and of course it's going to fund his lifestyle prostitutes in jets.
Put him in jail, have someone I trust overseeing it, and then I'll listen.
Otherwise, with trump, it's Opposite Day. Everything he says is a lie. He goes out of his way to lie about things that don't need to be lied about.
He is unhinged from reality.

When was the last time he played at h with Baron on the WH lawn, took him fishing, or even on one of the many golfing days?

Horrible father. Horrible person. Die already, please!

Then I'll get a vaccine.
I appreciate what you are saying but, honestly, I don't think Trump has much to do with the vaccine. I think that is driven by other forces. If that is your concern, I would take it.
I'm sure that by the time my age/rank in line comes up, I will have learned much differently. Millions will have already taken the various vaccines, there will be lots of reporting on it. Biden will be President, and the discourse about it all will be extremely different.

Trump was seemingly plotting to release ANYTHING he could announce as a "vaccine" just before the election. That did not happen. In fact, if anything, it seems that the pharmas WAITED until AFTER the election to make any announcements - coincidence?

What I'm saying is, I'm sure my opinion will change in the next 3 months. I would not, could not, give Trump ANY glory for saving my life. He'll be gone. Lucky me.
If Trump personally invented a vaccine that worked, I'd be glad to take it.

Trump had nothing to do with the vaccines. These companies knew they would make a ton of money if they invented a vaccine. If they could get countries to invest in R&D, more better, but they were doing it anyway.

The only thing Trump would have anything to do with is pushing the FDA to approve what was already done.
BearlyCareAnymore
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sycasey said:

heartofthebear said:

It's interesting though, that you are clearly emotional about this and focused on it when regular medicine does far more dangerous things. Examples include:
  • Not enough testing to determine a correct diagnosis
  • Chemotherapy--most end up dying
  • Radiation treatment--most end up dying
  • prescription drugs
  • surgeries--many unnecessary and irreversible

Don't you think folks should have an alternative?
People who have chemo end up dying because they HAVE CANCER. That doesn't mean other cancer treatments are better.

I think improvements to people's diets could possibly help with preventing cancer in the first place, so in that sense I'm not against those who advocate for more plant-based diets and away from processed foods, etc. But charlatans like Morse will also suggest his dietary methods as a TREATMENT for someone who already has cancer, and that is dangerously bad advice. If you have cancer, listen to the real doctors.
Just to be clear, he is not only suggesting dietary methods. He is selling products. It is not dangerously bad advice. It is a dangerous con. Hotb is likely giving dangerously bad advice. Morse is knowingly taking advantage of desperate people to bilk them of their money.

 
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