Sexism's OK, guys, just not "overt sexism." Got it.
BearGreg said:
Always good to have more discussion about Men's basketball. And Shocky has always been welcome here so long as he abides by the same code of conduct everyone else does. That means no personal attacks, no overt sexism, and not sharing unsubstantiated rumors that can be harmful to former, current Cal players, coaches and administrators.
We will from time to time add some additional perspective to make sure folks have a more complete view of things. A couple things I will say on that front:
- Theo is a great former Cal Bear and has a tremendous career in front of him as a coach. However, he was not perfect when he came into Cal. First off he was not someone Wyking choose to have on his staff, the hire was foisted on him. Secondly, Theo struggled being the low assistant on the totem pole and pushed back on some of the duties that entailed. That said, Wyking, as he did elsewhere in the program, made a mess of the situation.
- Wyking is a good human being. A stand up guy with good intentions. He was over his head and was put in a position to fail by Mike Williams. From Paris Austin to Matt Bradley, the vast majority of the players who played for Coach Jones felt emotionally close to Wyking and trusted and liked him a lot as a human being. He was also not a fan of the Monster Thread and had some feedback about it from former players and former players families that was not positive. When we purchased Bear Insider, I had more critical mail about the Monster Thread then any other topic. At the same time, it was very popular. As with all things in life, people are not perfect nor is any message board thread.
- Cuonzo Martin left Cal for a lot of different reasons, not the least of which was the substantial salary increase he got at Missouri and the more lenient academic requirements for recruits. Based on many conversations with Coach Martin, thhe issue with his son not being admitted to Cal was not among the top 5 reasons he didn't stay.
- Our policies about editing and deleting posts here as well as banning users are well understood by this community and since the sites traffic has increased by almost 20% since we took over, apparently we've done okay with this approach. Our feelings are not hurt by being called "censors" though it's not exactly in good taste.
- The younger Abdur-Rahim never had serious interest in Cal, when coming out of HS and now has a transfer. He wanted to stay on the East Coast.
- Ashwin Puri was not soley focused on Musselman, though it is true they had a prior relationship and that he supported his candidacy. I agree with Shocky that he would not have been a good fit here thought he's clearly an exceptional coach. To criticize Ashwin is to miss the Elephant in the room which is Mike Williams and his agenda as the AD when Martin left. Ashwin's efforts were akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
- The notion or implication that Mark Fox was dirty at any time in his career including at Georgia is flat out wrong and misguided.
It's always a good reminder that we can use the word AND in life. Wyking Jones was a bad hire who failed miserably at Cal AND he is a very solid human being who was well liked and respected by almost everyone around him. Mark Fox is currently struggling at Cal and our program lacks fan interest and enthusiasm AND he would never cheat to win. Theo Robertson was a Cal great, a young and talented coach AND he was put in a terrible situation by Mike Williams which both he and Wyking Jones did not handle well.
More important than all of the above is that Cal basketball is now in year four of a truly sad situation. Fan support is abysmal, the program is in dire need of a practice facility at a time when donor interest is not high. Mark Fox is our coach and hopefully he will add two strong transfers this Spring/Summer and we will see a strong year in 2021-22. If not, it will be time to discuss a change in leadership and ideally a coach who is a strong natural recruiter and who makes energizing Cal's fan and donor base a top priority.
Shocky1 said:
you posted on another thread that you would bet seven figures that mark fox has never been involved or aware of any scheme to pay a player, if i arrange a zoom call for us with jaylen brown to explain the details of his $200k georgia offer, will you accept that as conclusive proof and write me a check for $1,000,000?
betting is fun (when one side knows the odds & the other is clueless)#
Shocky1 said:
and finally given all of the other false information disseminated by the censor, its kinda hard to believe that your biz has grown 20% when there are only 29 active posters on the basketball board and both basketball/football attendance has been declining in recent years due to lack of fan interest, perhaps your getting your numbers from the iraqi war minister or something
Shocky1 said:
does your narrative that wyking jones is a "good human being" influenced at all by the documented use of a stripper mom & her underage daughter for prostitution with basketball recruits during his time in louisville & that still to this day jones considers rick pitino a "mentor"?
"A strong national recruiter".....BearGreg said:
Always good to have more discussion about Men's basketball. And Shocky has always been welcome here so long as he abides by the same code of conduct everyone else does. That means no personal attacks, no overt sexism, and not sharing unsubstantiated rumors that can be harmful to former, current Cal players, coaches and administrators.
We will from time to time add some additional perspective to make sure folks have a more complete view of things. A couple things I will say on that front:
- Theo is a great former Cal Bear and has a tremendous career in front of him as a coach. However, he was not perfect when he came into Cal. First off he was not someone Wyking choose to have on his staff, the hire was foisted on him. Secondly, Theo struggled being the low assistant on the totem pole and pushed back on some of the duties that entailed. That said, Wyking, as he did elsewhere in the program, made a mess of the situation.
- Wyking is a good human being. A stand up guy with good intentions. He was over his head and was put in a position to fail by Mike Williams. From Paris Austin to Matt Bradley, the vast majority of the players who played for Coach Jones felt emotionally close to Wyking and trusted and liked him a lot as a human being. He was also not a fan of the Monster Thread and had some feedback about it from former players and former players families that was not positive. When we purchased Bear Insider, I had more critical mail about the Monster Thread then any other topic. At the same time, it was very popular. As with all things in life, people are not perfect nor is any message board thread.
- Cuonzo Martin left Cal for a lot of different reasons, not the least of which was the substantial salary increase he got at Missouri and the more lenient academic requirements for recruits. Based on many conversations with Coach Martin, thhe issue with his son not being admitted to Cal was not among the top 5 reasons he didn't stay.
- Our policies about editing and deleting posts here as well as banning users are well understood by this community and since the sites traffic has increased by almost 20% since we took over, apparently we've done okay with this approach. Our feelings are not hurt by being called "censors" though it's not exactly in good taste.
- The younger Abdur-Rahim never had serious interest in Cal, when coming out of HS and now has a transfer. He wanted to stay on the East Coast.
- Ashwin Puri was not soley focused on Musselman, though it is true they had a prior relationship and that he supported his candidacy. I agree with Shocky that he would not have been a good fit here thought he's clearly an exceptional coach. To criticize Ashwin is to miss the Elephant in the room which is Mike Williams and his agenda as the AD when Martin left. Ashwin's efforts were akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
- The notion or implication that Mark Fox was dirty at any time in his career including at Georgia is flat out wrong and misguided.
It's always a good reminder that we can use the word AND in life. Wyking Jones was a bad hire who failed miserably at Cal AND he is a very solid human being who was well liked and respected by almost everyone around him. Mark Fox is currently struggling at Cal and our program lacks fan interest and enthusiasm AND he would never cheat to win. Theo Robertson was a Cal great, a young and talented coach AND he was put in a terrible situation by Mike Williams which both he and Wyking Jones did not handle well.
More important than all of the above is that Cal basketball is now in year four of a truly sad situation. Fan support is abysmal, the program is in dire need of a practice facility at a time when donor interest is not high. Mark Fox is our coach and hopefully he will add two strong transfers this Spring/Summer and we will see a strong year in 2021-22. If not, it will be time to discuss a change in leadership and ideally a coach who is a strong natural recruiter and who makes energizing Cal's fan and donor base a top priority.
socaltownie said:"A strong national recruiter".....BearGreg said:
Always good to have more discussion about Men's basketball. And Shocky has always been welcome here so long as he abides by the same code of conduct everyone else does. That means no personal attacks, no overt sexism, and not sharing unsubstantiated rumors that can be harmful to former, current Cal players, coaches and administrators.
We will from time to time add some additional perspective to make sure folks have a more complete view of things. A couple things I will say on that front:
- Theo is a great former Cal Bear and has a tremendous career in front of him as a coach. However, he was not perfect when he came into Cal. First off he was not someone Wyking choose to have on his staff, the hire was foisted on him. Secondly, Theo struggled being the low assistant on the totem pole and pushed back on some of the duties that entailed. That said, Wyking, as he did elsewhere in the program, made a mess of the situation.
- Wyking is a good human being. A stand up guy with good intentions. He was over his head and was put in a position to fail by Mike Williams. From Paris Austin to Matt Bradley, the vast majority of the players who played for Coach Jones felt emotionally close to Wyking and trusted and liked him a lot as a human being. He was also not a fan of the Monster Thread and had some feedback about it from former players and former players families that was not positive. When we purchased Bear Insider, I had more critical mail about the Monster Thread then any other topic. At the same time, it was very popular. As with all things in life, people are not perfect nor is any message board thread.
- Cuonzo Martin left Cal for a lot of different reasons, not the least of which was the substantial salary increase he got at Missouri and the more lenient academic requirements for recruits. Based on many conversations with Coach Martin, thhe issue with his son not being admitted to Cal was not among the top 5 reasons he didn't stay.
- Our policies about editing and deleting posts here as well as banning users are well understood by this community and since the sites traffic has increased by almost 20% since we took over, apparently we've done okay with this approach. Our feelings are not hurt by being called "censors" though it's not exactly in good taste.
- The younger Abdur-Rahim never had serious interest in Cal, when coming out of HS and now has a transfer. He wanted to stay on the East Coast.
- Ashwin Puri was not soley focused on Musselman, though it is true they had a prior relationship and that he supported his candidacy. I agree with Shocky that he would not have been a good fit here thought he's clearly an exceptional coach. To criticize Ashwin is to miss the Elephant in the room which is Mike Williams and his agenda as the AD when Martin left. Ashwin's efforts were akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
- The notion or implication that Mark Fox was dirty at any time in his career including at Georgia is flat out wrong and misguided.
It's always a good reminder that we can use the word AND in life. Wyking Jones was a bad hire who failed miserably at Cal AND he is a very solid human being who was well liked and respected by almost everyone around him. Mark Fox is currently struggling at Cal and our program lacks fan interest and enthusiasm AND he would never cheat to win. Theo Robertson was a Cal great, a young and talented coach AND he was put in a terrible situation by Mike Williams which both he and Wyking Jones did not handle well.
More important than all of the above is that Cal basketball is now in year four of a truly sad situation. Fan support is abysmal, the program is in dire need of a practice facility at a time when donor interest is not high. Mark Fox is our coach and hopefully he will add two strong transfers this Spring/Summer and we will see a strong year in 2021-22. If not, it will be time to discuss a change in leadership and ideally a coach who is a strong natural recruiter and who makes energizing Cal's fan and donor base a top priority.
I just think that flies in the face of every data point we have about Cal in the last 30 years. We need a guy who recruits strong ON THE WEST COAST and in particular SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA (cause that is where the population center is and which produces, on a per capita basis, most of the hoop talent.
Seriously - when was the last time a Cal recruit from OUTSIDE California had a dramatic impact on the trajectory of either football or basketball? MAYBE SAR. MAYBE (if you really try hard) Jalen Brown. Now lets compare that with Crabbe, Kidd, Money, Rodgers, Roth, etc. etc. etc.
We are, when it comes to SPORTS, a STATE SCHOOL. That means hiring a guy who kills it in california - who has deep and decades(?) long roots to the AAU programs and leaders in this state. Who knows the high school coaching ranks well.
It stars with knowing who we are and then leveraging that. We have NO national footprint, in the minds of elite athletes. We do, however, have mind share in this state.
Just to make sure I follow:Shocky1 said:
it is absolutely fake news to say wyking jones is a good human being, perhaps you feel that way because he worked with you to censor cal's monster class to move the trajectory of the cal basketball program to one that you both could agree upon
All I can do is relay my view after many conversations with Ashwin during and after the process. Your take is different than mine. C'est la vieShocky1 said:
ashwin puri has directly told me during his time now with the oakland a's that in retrospect he made a mistake in singularly focusing on eric musselman, do you have the ability to read his inner mind beyond even his own thoughts & words?
Please flag it - ThanksCoffeeBear said:
If y'all really don't tolerate personal attacks, I would hope you'd enforce that policy with regards to the poster on the WJ thread that was so inappropriate with comments about Shocky's kid. Way wrong, imho
What Jabri told Josh Gershon is very different from what we heard from him and his family and those close to him in his recruitment. That's not surprising as "I can imagine . . ." is very different from "what I really want".Shocky1 said:
reread the 1st link in my post above re: rahim, "jabri told josh gershon that...i've always pictured myself moving back to california"...are you saying you got inside information that goes beyond the recruits own words?
and now your selling the narrative that it's not the staff's fault (which is a common theme with you), it's because he wanted to stay on the east coast (in what world is atlanta truly on the east coast?)
reality is that mark fox did not build a trusting relationship with the family during his georgia days & now shareef (who mentored jaylen) and brown are not gonna send jabri to cal despite everybody in the family's love & respect for berkeley academics
So far as I understand it and I'm happy to have you or others share information to the contrary, Jones was in no way involved with that scandal. The investigation reports that I read that led to Pitino's ouster never mentioned Wyking once while other assistants were named.Shocky1 said:
does your narrative that wyking jones is a "good human being" influenced at all by the documented use of a stripper mom & her underage daughter for prostitution with basketball recruits during his time in louisville & that still to this day jones considers rick pitino a "mentor"?
I said "natural" recruiter, not "national" recruiter.socaltownie said:"A strong national recruiter".....BearGreg said:
Always good to have more discussion about Men's basketball. And Shocky has always been welcome here so long as he abides by the same code of conduct everyone else does. That means no personal attacks, no overt sexism, and not sharing unsubstantiated rumors that can be harmful to former, current Cal players, coaches and administrators.
We will from time to time add some additional perspective to make sure folks have a more complete view of things. A couple things I will say on that front:
- Theo is a great former Cal Bear and has a tremendous career in front of him as a coach. However, he was not perfect when he came into Cal. First off he was not someone Wyking choose to have on his staff, the hire was foisted on him. Secondly, Theo struggled being the low assistant on the totem pole and pushed back on some of the duties that entailed. That said, Wyking, as he did elsewhere in the program, made a mess of the situation.
- Wyking is a good human being. A stand up guy with good intentions. He was over his head and was put in a position to fail by Mike Williams. From Paris Austin to Matt Bradley, the vast majority of the players who played for Coach Jones felt emotionally close to Wyking and trusted and liked him a lot as a human being. He was also not a fan of the Monster Thread and had some feedback about it from former players and former players families that was not positive. When we purchased Bear Insider, I had more critical mail about the Monster Thread then any other topic. At the same time, it was very popular. As with all things in life, people are not perfect nor is any message board thread.
- Cuonzo Martin left Cal for a lot of different reasons, not the least of which was the substantial salary increase he got at Missouri and the more lenient academic requirements for recruits. Based on many conversations with Coach Martin, thhe issue with his son not being admitted to Cal was not among the top 5 reasons he didn't stay.
- Our policies about editing and deleting posts here as well as banning users are well understood by this community and since the sites traffic has increased by almost 20% since we took over, apparently we've done okay with this approach. Our feelings are not hurt by being called "censors" though it's not exactly in good taste.
- The younger Abdur-Rahim never had serious interest in Cal, when coming out of HS and now has a transfer. He wanted to stay on the East Coast.
- Ashwin Puri was not soley focused on Musselman, though it is true they had a prior relationship and that he supported his candidacy. I agree with Shocky that he would not have been a good fit here thought he's clearly an exceptional coach. To criticize Ashwin is to miss the Elephant in the room which is Mike Williams and his agenda as the AD when Martin left. Ashwin's efforts were akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
- The notion or implication that Mark Fox was dirty at any time in his career including at Georgia is flat out wrong and misguided.
It's always a good reminder that we can use the word AND in life. Wyking Jones was a bad hire who failed miserably at Cal AND he is a very solid human being who was well liked and respected by almost everyone around him. Mark Fox is currently struggling at Cal and our program lacks fan interest and enthusiasm AND he would never cheat to win. Theo Robertson was a Cal great, a young and talented coach AND he was put in a terrible situation by Mike Williams which both he and Wyking Jones did not handle well.
More important than all of the above is that Cal basketball is now in year four of a truly sad situation. Fan support is abysmal, the program is in dire need of a practice facility at a time when donor interest is not high. Mark Fox is our coach and hopefully he will add two strong transfers this Spring/Summer and we will see a strong year in 2021-22. If not, it will be time to discuss a change in leadership and ideally a coach who is a strong natural recruiter and who makes energizing Cal's fan and donor base a top priority.
I just think that flies in the face of every data point we have about Cal in the last 30 years. We need a guy who recruits strong ON THE WEST COAST and in particular SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA (cause that is where the population center is and which produces, on a per capita basis, most of the hoop talent.
Seriously - when was the last time a Cal recruit from OUTSIDE California had a dramatic impact on the trajectory of either football or basketball? MAYBE SAR. MAYBE (if you really try hard) Jalen Brown. Now lets compare that with Crabbe, Kidd, Money, Rodgers, Roth, etc. etc. etc.
We are, when it comes to SPORTS, a STATE SCHOOL. That means hiring a guy who kills it in california - who has deep and decades(?) long roots to the AAU programs and leaders in this state. Who knows the high school coaching ranks well.
It stars with knowing who we are and then leveraging that. We have NO national footprint, in the minds of elite athletes. We do, however, have mind share in this state.
BearGreg said:I said "natural" recruiter, not "national" recruiter.socaltownie said:"A strong national recruiter".....BearGreg said:
Always good to have more discussion about Men's basketball. And Shocky has always been welcome here so long as he abides by the same code of conduct everyone else does. That means no personal attacks, no overt sexism, and not sharing unsubstantiated rumors that can be harmful to former, current Cal players, coaches and administrators.
We will from time to time add some additional perspective to make sure folks have a more complete view of things. A couple things I will say on that front:
- Theo is a great former Cal Bear and has a tremendous career in front of him as a coach. However, he was not perfect when he came into Cal. First off he was not someone Wyking choose to have on his staff, the hire was foisted on him. Secondly, Theo struggled being the low assistant on the totem pole and pushed back on some of the duties that entailed. That said, Wyking, as he did elsewhere in the program, made a mess of the situation.
- Wyking is a good human being. A stand up guy with good intentions. He was over his head and was put in a position to fail by Mike Williams. From Paris Austin to Matt Bradley, the vast majority of the players who played for Coach Jones felt emotionally close to Wyking and trusted and liked him a lot as a human being. He was also not a fan of the Monster Thread and had some feedback about it from former players and former players families that was not positive. When we purchased Bear Insider, I had more critical mail about the Monster Thread then any other topic. At the same time, it was very popular. As with all things in life, people are not perfect nor is any message board thread.
- Cuonzo Martin left Cal for a lot of different reasons, not the least of which was the substantial salary increase he got at Missouri and the more lenient academic requirements for recruits. Based on many conversations with Coach Martin, thhe issue with his son not being admitted to Cal was not among the top 5 reasons he didn't stay.
- Our policies about editing and deleting posts here as well as banning users are well understood by this community and since the sites traffic has increased by almost 20% since we took over, apparently we've done okay with this approach. Our feelings are not hurt by being called "censors" though it's not exactly in good taste.
- The younger Abdur-Rahim never had serious interest in Cal, when coming out of HS and now has a transfer. He wanted to stay on the East Coast.
- Ashwin Puri was not soley focused on Musselman, though it is true they had a prior relationship and that he supported his candidacy. I agree with Shocky that he would not have been a good fit here thought he's clearly an exceptional coach. To criticize Ashwin is to miss the Elephant in the room which is Mike Williams and his agenda as the AD when Martin left. Ashwin's efforts were akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
- The notion or implication that Mark Fox was dirty at any time in his career including at Georgia is flat out wrong and misguided.
It's always a good reminder that we can use the word AND in life. Wyking Jones was a bad hire who failed miserably at Cal AND he is a very solid human being who was well liked and respected by almost everyone around him. Mark Fox is currently struggling at Cal and our program lacks fan interest and enthusiasm AND he would never cheat to win. Theo Robertson was a Cal great, a young and talented coach AND he was put in a terrible situation by Mike Williams which both he and Wyking Jones did not handle well.
More important than all of the above is that Cal basketball is now in year four of a truly sad situation. Fan support is abysmal, the program is in dire need of a practice facility at a time when donor interest is not high. Mark Fox is our coach and hopefully he will add two strong transfers this Spring/Summer and we will see a strong year in 2021-22. If not, it will be time to discuss a change in leadership and ideally a coach who is a strong natural recruiter and who makes energizing Cal's fan and donor base a top priority.
I just think that flies in the face of every data point we have about Cal in the last 30 years. We need a guy who recruits strong ON THE WEST COAST and in particular SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA (cause that is where the population center is and which produces, on a per capita basis, most of the hoop talent.
Seriously - when was the last time a Cal recruit from OUTSIDE California had a dramatic impact on the trajectory of either football or basketball? MAYBE SAR. MAYBE (if you really try hard) Jalen Brown. Now lets compare that with Crabbe, Kidd, Money, Rodgers, Roth, etc. etc. etc.
We are, when it comes to SPORTS, a STATE SCHOOL. That means hiring a guy who kills it in california - who has deep and decades(?) long roots to the AAU programs and leaders in this state. Who knows the high school coaching ranks well.
It stars with knowing who we are and then leveraging that. We have NO national footprint, in the minds of elite athletes. We do, however, have mind share in this state.
I am going to come back on this. The idea that people can do it all leads to choices like Fox ("Hey, he can also recruit Georgia.") No. There is a real benefit (Bennet at St Mary's?) in specialization in recruiting. There are only so many days in the year, so much money in your recruiting budget, so many minutes of ass kissing of AAU coaches that one can squeeze into the day. I want someone who is able to STARTS with a deep California connection.calumnus said:socaltownie said:"A strong national recruiter".....BearGreg said:
Always good to have more discussion about Men's basketball. And Shocky has always been welcome here so long as he abides by the same code of conduct everyone else does. That means no personal attacks, no overt sexism, and not sharing unsubstantiated rumors that can be harmful to former, current Cal players, coaches and administrators.
We will from time to time add some additional perspective to make sure folks have a more complete view of things. A couple things I will say on that front:
- Theo is a great former Cal Bear and has a tremendous career in front of him as a coach. However, he was not perfect when he came into Cal. First off he was not someone Wyking choose to have on his staff, the hire was foisted on him. Secondly, Theo struggled being the low assistant on the totem pole and pushed back on some of the duties that entailed. That said, Wyking, as he did elsewhere in the program, made a mess of the situation.
- Wyking is a good human being. A stand up guy with good intentions. He was over his head and was put in a position to fail by Mike Williams. From Paris Austin to Matt Bradley, the vast majority of the players who played for Coach Jones felt emotionally close to Wyking and trusted and liked him a lot as a human being. He was also not a fan of the Monster Thread and had some feedback about it from former players and former players families that was not positive. When we purchased Bear Insider, I had more critical mail about the Monster Thread then any other topic. At the same time, it was very popular. As with all things in life, people are not perfect nor is any message board thread.
- Cuonzo Martin left Cal for a lot of different reasons, not the least of which was the substantial salary increase he got at Missouri and the more lenient academic requirements for recruits. Based on many conversations with Coach Martin, thhe issue with his son not being admitted to Cal was not among the top 5 reasons he didn't stay.
- Our policies about editing and deleting posts here as well as banning users are well understood by this community and since the sites traffic has increased by almost 20% since we took over, apparently we've done okay with this approach. Our feelings are not hurt by being called "censors" though it's not exactly in good taste.
- The younger Abdur-Rahim never had serious interest in Cal, when coming out of HS and now has a transfer. He wanted to stay on the East Coast.
- Ashwin Puri was not soley focused on Musselman, though it is true they had a prior relationship and that he supported his candidacy. I agree with Shocky that he would not have been a good fit here thought he's clearly an exceptional coach. To criticize Ashwin is to miss the Elephant in the room which is Mike Williams and his agenda as the AD when Martin left. Ashwin's efforts were akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
- The notion or implication that Mark Fox was dirty at any time in his career including at Georgia is flat out wrong and misguided.
It's always a good reminder that we can use the word AND in life. Wyking Jones was a bad hire who failed miserably at Cal AND he is a very solid human being who was well liked and respected by almost everyone around him. Mark Fox is currently struggling at Cal and our program lacks fan interest and enthusiasm AND he would never cheat to win. Theo Robertson was a Cal great, a young and talented coach AND he was put in a terrible situation by Mike Williams which both he and Wyking Jones did not handle well.
More important than all of the above is that Cal basketball is now in year four of a truly sad situation. Fan support is abysmal, the program is in dire need of a practice facility at a time when donor interest is not high. Mark Fox is our coach and hopefully he will add two strong transfers this Spring/Summer and we will see a strong year in 2021-22. If not, it will be time to discuss a change in leadership and ideally a coach who is a strong natural recruiter and who makes energizing Cal's fan and donor base a top priority.
I just think that flies in the face of every data point we have about Cal in the last 30 years. We need a guy who recruits strong ON THE WEST COAST and in particular SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA (cause that is where the population center is and which produces, on a per capita basis, most of the hoop talent.
Seriously - when was the last time a Cal recruit from OUTSIDE California had a dramatic impact on the trajectory of either football or basketball? MAYBE SAR. MAYBE (if you really try hard) Jalen Brown. Now lets compare that with Crabbe, Kidd, Money, Rodgers, Roth, etc. etc. etc.
We are, when it comes to SPORTS, a STATE SCHOOL. That means hiring a guy who kills it in california - who has deep and decades(?) long roots to the AAU programs and leaders in this state. Who knows the high school coaching ranks well.
It stars with knowing who we are and then leveraging that. We have NO national footprint, in the minds of elite athletes. We do, however, have mind share in this state.
It is not either, it is all of the above. We need to get the top local talent like Kidd and Powe and national talent including SoCal attracted to our academics like Jaylen and Shareef and recruit internationally like Marks and Nowitski. Relationships with high school, JC and AAU coaches on the West Coast are paramount. That is our base.
Campanelli, Bozeman, Braun, Monty, Martin even Jones (eventually) were all competent to varying degrees at the above, so it is not a huge ask. Monty did the only competent job of coaching them up.
It isn't rocket science, even if it pays a lot better.
LOL. What happens when I try to read BI on my smart phone.BearGreg said:I said "natural" recruiter, not "national" recruiter.socaltownie said:"A strong national recruiter".....BearGreg said:
Always good to have more discussion about Men's basketball. And Shocky has always been welcome here so long as he abides by the same code of conduct everyone else does. That means no personal attacks, no overt sexism, and not sharing unsubstantiated rumors that can be harmful to former, current Cal players, coaches and administrators.
We will from time to time add some additional perspective to make sure folks have a more complete view of things. A couple things I will say on that front:
- Theo is a great former Cal Bear and has a tremendous career in front of him as a coach. However, he was not perfect when he came into Cal. First off he was not someone Wyking choose to have on his staff, the hire was foisted on him. Secondly, Theo struggled being the low assistant on the totem pole and pushed back on some of the duties that entailed. That said, Wyking, as he did elsewhere in the program, made a mess of the situation.
- Wyking is a good human being. A stand up guy with good intentions. He was over his head and was put in a position to fail by Mike Williams. From Paris Austin to Matt Bradley, the vast majority of the players who played for Coach Jones felt emotionally close to Wyking and trusted and liked him a lot as a human being. He was also not a fan of the Monster Thread and had some feedback about it from former players and former players families that was not positive. When we purchased Bear Insider, I had more critical mail about the Monster Thread then any other topic. At the same time, it was very popular. As with all things in life, people are not perfect nor is any message board thread.
- Cuonzo Martin left Cal for a lot of different reasons, not the least of which was the substantial salary increase he got at Missouri and the more lenient academic requirements for recruits. Based on many conversations with Coach Martin, thhe issue with his son not being admitted to Cal was not among the top 5 reasons he didn't stay.
- Our policies about editing and deleting posts here as well as banning users are well understood by this community and since the sites traffic has increased by almost 20% since we took over, apparently we've done okay with this approach. Our feelings are not hurt by being called "censors" though it's not exactly in good taste.
- The younger Abdur-Rahim never had serious interest in Cal, when coming out of HS and now has a transfer. He wanted to stay on the East Coast.
- Ashwin Puri was not soley focused on Musselman, though it is true they had a prior relationship and that he supported his candidacy. I agree with Shocky that he would not have been a good fit here thought he's clearly an exceptional coach. To criticize Ashwin is to miss the Elephant in the room which is Mike Williams and his agenda as the AD when Martin left. Ashwin's efforts were akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
- The notion or implication that Mark Fox was dirty at any time in his career including at Georgia is flat out wrong and misguided.
It's always a good reminder that we can use the word AND in life. Wyking Jones was a bad hire who failed miserably at Cal AND he is a very solid human being who was well liked and respected by almost everyone around him. Mark Fox is currently struggling at Cal and our program lacks fan interest and enthusiasm AND he would never cheat to win. Theo Robertson was a Cal great, a young and talented coach AND he was put in a terrible situation by Mike Williams which both he and Wyking Jones did not handle well.
More important than all of the above is that Cal basketball is now in year four of a truly sad situation. Fan support is abysmal, the program is in dire need of a practice facility at a time when donor interest is not high. Mark Fox is our coach and hopefully he will add two strong transfers this Spring/Summer and we will see a strong year in 2021-22. If not, it will be time to discuss a change in leadership and ideally a coach who is a strong natural recruiter and who makes energizing Cal's fan and donor base a top priority.
I just think that flies in the face of every data point we have about Cal in the last 30 years. We need a guy who recruits strong ON THE WEST COAST and in particular SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA (cause that is where the population center is and which produces, on a per capita basis, most of the hoop talent.
Seriously - when was the last time a Cal recruit from OUTSIDE California had a dramatic impact on the trajectory of either football or basketball? MAYBE SAR. MAYBE (if you really try hard) Jalen Brown. Now lets compare that with Crabbe, Kidd, Money, Rodgers, Roth, etc. etc. etc.
We are, when it comes to SPORTS, a STATE SCHOOL. That means hiring a guy who kills it in california - who has deep and decades(?) long roots to the AAU programs and leaders in this state. Who knows the high school coaching ranks well.
It stars with knowing who we are and then leveraging that. We have NO national footprint, in the minds of elite athletes. We do, however, have mind share in this state.
FWIW, Fox had a background as a West Coast guy from his Nevada and UW days. And then he made a conscious choice to retain Marty Wilson over David Grace (or a new hire) as his California recruiter. So far, that's led to 2K (via Napa), Bowser, Roberson and Anyanwu.socaltownie said:LOL. What happens when I try to read BI on my smart phone.BearGreg said:I said "natural" recruiter, not "national" recruiter.socaltownie said:"A strong national recruiter".....BearGreg said:
Always good to have more discussion about Men's basketball. And Shocky has always been welcome here so long as he abides by the same code of conduct everyone else does. That means no personal attacks, no overt sexism, and not sharing unsubstantiated rumors that can be harmful to former, current Cal players, coaches and administrators.
We will from time to time add some additional perspective to make sure folks have a more complete view of things. A couple things I will say on that front:
- Theo is a great former Cal Bear and has a tremendous career in front of him as a coach. However, he was not perfect when he came into Cal. First off he was not someone Wyking choose to have on his staff, the hire was foisted on him. Secondly, Theo struggled being the low assistant on the totem pole and pushed back on some of the duties that entailed. That said, Wyking, as he did elsewhere in the program, made a mess of the situation.
- Wyking is a good human being. A stand up guy with good intentions. He was over his head and was put in a position to fail by Mike Williams. From Paris Austin to Matt Bradley, the vast majority of the players who played for Coach Jones felt emotionally close to Wyking and trusted and liked him a lot as a human being. He was also not a fan of the Monster Thread and had some feedback about it from former players and former players families that was not positive. When we purchased Bear Insider, I had more critical mail about the Monster Thread then any other topic. At the same time, it was very popular. As with all things in life, people are not perfect nor is any message board thread.
- Cuonzo Martin left Cal for a lot of different reasons, not the least of which was the substantial salary increase he got at Missouri and the more lenient academic requirements for recruits. Based on many conversations with Coach Martin, thhe issue with his son not being admitted to Cal was not among the top 5 reasons he didn't stay.
- Our policies about editing and deleting posts here as well as banning users are well understood by this community and since the sites traffic has increased by almost 20% since we took over, apparently we've done okay with this approach. Our feelings are not hurt by being called "censors" though it's not exactly in good taste.
- The younger Abdur-Rahim never had serious interest in Cal, when coming out of HS and now has a transfer. He wanted to stay on the East Coast.
- Ashwin Puri was not soley focused on Musselman, though it is true they had a prior relationship and that he supported his candidacy. I agree with Shocky that he would not have been a good fit here thought he's clearly an exceptional coach. To criticize Ashwin is to miss the Elephant in the room which is Mike Williams and his agenda as the AD when Martin left. Ashwin's efforts were akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
- The notion or implication that Mark Fox was dirty at any time in his career including at Georgia is flat out wrong and misguided.
It's always a good reminder that we can use the word AND in life. Wyking Jones was a bad hire who failed miserably at Cal AND he is a very solid human being who was well liked and respected by almost everyone around him. Mark Fox is currently struggling at Cal and our program lacks fan interest and enthusiasm AND he would never cheat to win. Theo Robertson was a Cal great, a young and talented coach AND he was put in a terrible situation by Mike Williams which both he and Wyking Jones did not handle well.
More important than all of the above is that Cal basketball is now in year four of a truly sad situation. Fan support is abysmal, the program is in dire need of a practice facility at a time when donor interest is not high. Mark Fox is our coach and hopefully he will add two strong transfers this Spring/Summer and we will see a strong year in 2021-22. If not, it will be time to discuss a change in leadership and ideally a coach who is a strong natural recruiter and who makes energizing Cal's fan and donor base a top priority.
I just think that flies in the face of every data point we have about Cal in the last 30 years. We need a guy who recruits strong ON THE WEST COAST and in particular SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA (cause that is where the population center is and which produces, on a per capita basis, most of the hoop talent.
Seriously - when was the last time a Cal recruit from OUTSIDE California had a dramatic impact on the trajectory of either football or basketball? MAYBE SAR. MAYBE (if you really try hard) Jalen Brown. Now lets compare that with Crabbe, Kidd, Money, Rodgers, Roth, etc. etc. etc.
We are, when it comes to SPORTS, a STATE SCHOOL. That means hiring a guy who kills it in california - who has deep and decades(?) long roots to the AAU programs and leaders in this state. Who knows the high school coaching ranks well.
It stars with knowing who we are and then leveraging that. We have NO national footprint, in the minds of elite athletes. We do, however, have mind share in this state.
I do think, however, that the point stands. What the next hire ABSOLUTELY needs is California ties. We have tried the other approach (now three times) and it is pretty clear that if you can't recruit well in SoCal you are not recruiting well to Cal.
Heck, I wouldn't be at all surprised, if we dug a bit, that some of the out of state recruits we have gone after which had FINE academic records didn't have A-G requirements met (cause California thing) and thus required the coach/AD to go hat in hand to get a waiver.
BG, what is your take on if that is a satisfactory performance or not? Should Fox change the staff up to improve recruiting? Is it dependent on if they can get Mahaney?BearGreg said:
FWIW, Fox had a background as a West Coast guy from his Nevada and UW days. And then he made a conscious choice to retain Marty Wilson over David Grace (or a new hire) as his California recruiter. So far, that's led to 2K (via Napa), Bowser, Roberson and Anyanwu.
My understanding is recruiting isn't Marty's thing. Based on my limited view of him, he doesn't have the personality for it. His rep is he is a hardliner no-nonsense type (similar to Fox)BearGreg said:FWIW, Fox had a background as a West Coast guy from his Nevada and UW days. And then he made a conscious choice to retain Marty Wilson over David Grace (or a new hire) as his California recruiter. So far, that's led to 2K (via Napa), Bowser, Roberson and Anyanwu.socaltownie said:LOL. What happens when I try to read BI on my smart phone.BearGreg said:I said "natural" recruiter, not "national" recruiter.socaltownie said:"A strong national recruiter".....BearGreg said:
Always good to have more discussion about Men's basketball. And Shocky has always been welcome here so long as he abides by the same code of conduct everyone else does. That means no personal attacks, no overt sexism, and not sharing unsubstantiated rumors that can be harmful to former, current Cal players, coaches and administrators.
We will from time to time add some additional perspective to make sure folks have a more complete view of things. A couple things I will say on that front:
- Theo is a great former Cal Bear and has a tremendous career in front of him as a coach. However, he was not perfect when he came into Cal. First off he was not someone Wyking choose to have on his staff, the hire was foisted on him. Secondly, Theo struggled being the low assistant on the totem pole and pushed back on some of the duties that entailed. That said, Wyking, as he did elsewhere in the program, made a mess of the situation.
- Wyking is a good human being. A stand up guy with good intentions. He was over his head and was put in a position to fail by Mike Williams. From Paris Austin to Matt Bradley, the vast majority of the players who played for Coach Jones felt emotionally close to Wyking and trusted and liked him a lot as a human being. He was also not a fan of the Monster Thread and had some feedback about it from former players and former players families that was not positive. When we purchased Bear Insider, I had more critical mail about the Monster Thread then any other topic. At the same time, it was very popular. As with all things in life, people are not perfect nor is any message board thread.
- Cuonzo Martin left Cal for a lot of different reasons, not the least of which was the substantial salary increase he got at Missouri and the more lenient academic requirements for recruits. Based on many conversations with Coach Martin, thhe issue with his son not being admitted to Cal was not among the top 5 reasons he didn't stay.
- Our policies about editing and deleting posts here as well as banning users are well understood by this community and since the sites traffic has increased by almost 20% since we took over, apparently we've done okay with this approach. Our feelings are not hurt by being called "censors" though it's not exactly in good taste.
- The younger Abdur-Rahim never had serious interest in Cal, when coming out of HS and now has a transfer. He wanted to stay on the East Coast.
- Ashwin Puri was not soley focused on Musselman, though it is true they had a prior relationship and that he supported his candidacy. I agree with Shocky that he would not have been a good fit here thought he's clearly an exceptional coach. To criticize Ashwin is to miss the Elephant in the room which is Mike Williams and his agenda as the AD when Martin left. Ashwin's efforts were akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
- The notion or implication that Mark Fox was dirty at any time in his career including at Georgia is flat out wrong and misguided.
It's always a good reminder that we can use the word AND in life. Wyking Jones was a bad hire who failed miserably at Cal AND he is a very solid human being who was well liked and respected by almost everyone around him. Mark Fox is currently struggling at Cal and our program lacks fan interest and enthusiasm AND he would never cheat to win. Theo Robertson was a Cal great, a young and talented coach AND he was put in a terrible situation by Mike Williams which both he and Wyking Jones did not handle well.
More important than all of the above is that Cal basketball is now in year four of a truly sad situation. Fan support is abysmal, the program is in dire need of a practice facility at a time when donor interest is not high. Mark Fox is our coach and hopefully he will add two strong transfers this Spring/Summer and we will see a strong year in 2021-22. If not, it will be time to discuss a change in leadership and ideally a coach who is a strong natural recruiter and who makes energizing Cal's fan and donor base a top priority.
I just think that flies in the face of every data point we have about Cal in the last 30 years. We need a guy who recruits strong ON THE WEST COAST and in particular SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA (cause that is where the population center is and which produces, on a per capita basis, most of the hoop talent.
Seriously - when was the last time a Cal recruit from OUTSIDE California had a dramatic impact on the trajectory of either football or basketball? MAYBE SAR. MAYBE (if you really try hard) Jalen Brown. Now lets compare that with Crabbe, Kidd, Money, Rodgers, Roth, etc. etc. etc.
We are, when it comes to SPORTS, a STATE SCHOOL. That means hiring a guy who kills it in california - who has deep and decades(?) long roots to the AAU programs and leaders in this state. Who knows the high school coaching ranks well.
It stars with knowing who we are and then leveraging that. We have NO national footprint, in the minds of elite athletes. We do, however, have mind share in this state.
I do think, however, that the point stands. What the next hire ABSOLUTELY needs is California ties. We have tried the other approach (now three times) and it is pretty clear that if you can't recruit well in SoCal you are not recruiting well to Cal.
Heck, I wouldn't be at all surprised, if we dug a bit, that some of the out of state recruits we have gone after which had FINE academic records didn't have A-G requirements met (cause California thing) and thus required the coach/AD to go hat in hand to get a waiver.
HoopDreams said:My understanding is recruiting isn't Marty's thing. Based on my limited view of him, he doesn't have the personality for it. His rep is he is a hardliner no-nonsense type (similar to Fox)BearGreg said:FWIW, Fox had a background as a West Coast guy from his Nevada and UW days. And then he made a conscious choice to retain Marty Wilson over David Grace (or a new hire) as his California recruiter. So far, that's led to 2K (via Napa), Bowser, Roberson and Anyanwu.socaltownie said:LOL. What happens when I try to read BI on my smart phone.BearGreg said:I said "natural" recruiter, not "national" recruiter.socaltownie said:"A strong national recruiter".....BearGreg said:
Always good to have more discussion about Men's basketball. And Shocky has always been welcome here so long as he abides by the same code of conduct everyone else does. That means no personal attacks, no overt sexism, and not sharing unsubstantiated rumors that can be harmful to former, current Cal players, coaches and administrators.
We will from time to time add some additional perspective to make sure folks have a more complete view of things. A couple things I will say on that front:
- Theo is a great former Cal Bear and has a tremendous career in front of him as a coach. However, he was not perfect when he came into Cal. First off he was not someone Wyking choose to have on his staff, the hire was foisted on him. Secondly, Theo struggled being the low assistant on the totem pole and pushed back on some of the duties that entailed. That said, Wyking, as he did elsewhere in the program, made a mess of the situation.
- Wyking is a good human being. A stand up guy with good intentions. He was over his head and was put in a position to fail by Mike Williams. From Paris Austin to Matt Bradley, the vast majority of the players who played for Coach Jones felt emotionally close to Wyking and trusted and liked him a lot as a human being. He was also not a fan of the Monster Thread and had some feedback about it from former players and former players families that was not positive. When we purchased Bear Insider, I had more critical mail about the Monster Thread then any other topic. At the same time, it was very popular. As with all things in life, people are not perfect nor is any message board thread.
- Cuonzo Martin left Cal for a lot of different reasons, not the least of which was the substantial salary increase he got at Missouri and the more lenient academic requirements for recruits. Based on many conversations with Coach Martin, thhe issue with his son not being admitted to Cal was not among the top 5 reasons he didn't stay.
- Our policies about editing and deleting posts here as well as banning users are well understood by this community and since the sites traffic has increased by almost 20% since we took over, apparently we've done okay with this approach. Our feelings are not hurt by being called "censors" though it's not exactly in good taste.
- The younger Abdur-Rahim never had serious interest in Cal, when coming out of HS and now has a transfer. He wanted to stay on the East Coast.
- Ashwin Puri was not soley focused on Musselman, though it is true they had a prior relationship and that he supported his candidacy. I agree with Shocky that he would not have been a good fit here thought he's clearly an exceptional coach. To criticize Ashwin is to miss the Elephant in the room which is Mike Williams and his agenda as the AD when Martin left. Ashwin's efforts were akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
- The notion or implication that Mark Fox was dirty at any time in his career including at Georgia is flat out wrong and misguided.
It's always a good reminder that we can use the word AND in life. Wyking Jones was a bad hire who failed miserably at Cal AND he is a very solid human being who was well liked and respected by almost everyone around him. Mark Fox is currently struggling at Cal and our program lacks fan interest and enthusiasm AND he would never cheat to win. Theo Robertson was a Cal great, a young and talented coach AND he was put in a terrible situation by Mike Williams which both he and Wyking Jones did not handle well.
More important than all of the above is that Cal basketball is now in year four of a truly sad situation. Fan support is abysmal, the program is in dire need of a practice facility at a time when donor interest is not high. Mark Fox is our coach and hopefully he will add two strong transfers this Spring/Summer and we will see a strong year in 2021-22. If not, it will be time to discuss a change in leadership and ideally a coach who is a strong natural recruiter and who makes energizing Cal's fan and donor base a top priority.
I just think that flies in the face of every data point we have about Cal in the last 30 years. We need a guy who recruits strong ON THE WEST COAST and in particular SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA (cause that is where the population center is and which produces, on a per capita basis, most of the hoop talent.
Seriously - when was the last time a Cal recruit from OUTSIDE California had a dramatic impact on the trajectory of either football or basketball? MAYBE SAR. MAYBE (if you really try hard) Jalen Brown. Now lets compare that with Crabbe, Kidd, Money, Rodgers, Roth, etc. etc. etc.
We are, when it comes to SPORTS, a STATE SCHOOL. That means hiring a guy who kills it in california - who has deep and decades(?) long roots to the AAU programs and leaders in this state. Who knows the high school coaching ranks well.
It stars with knowing who we are and then leveraging that. We have NO national footprint, in the minds of elite athletes. We do, however, have mind share in this state.
I do think, however, that the point stands. What the next hire ABSOLUTELY needs is California ties. We have tried the other approach (now three times) and it is pretty clear that if you can't recruit well in SoCal you are not recruiting well to Cal.
Heck, I wouldn't be at all surprised, if we dug a bit, that some of the out of state recruits we have gone after which had FINE academic records didn't have A-G requirements met (cause California thing) and thus required the coach/AD to go hat in hand to get a waiver.
If he was the lead recruiter to 2K, then I give him kudos for that. Kuany hasn't had a big impact yet, but I expect him to break out. Hopefully this year.
Bowser and Roberson were fairly under the radar recruits and both from Oakland's Bishop O'Dowd HS. Their coach is Cal alum Lou Ritchie. Probably the most pro Cal HS coach around. If Marty can sign Lewis I will be a believer. Until then, I have my doubts that he is what we need to recruit California.
Would love to see Fox upgrade his staff with one hire that can handle West Coast recruiting and provide more to the players off the court needs.philbert said:BG, what is your take on if that is a satisfactory performance or not? Should Fox change the staff up to improve recruiting? Is it dependent on if they can get Mahaney?BearGreg said:
FWIW, Fox had a background as a West Coast guy from his Nevada and UW days. And then he made a conscious choice to retain Marty Wilson over David Grace (or a new hire) as his California recruiter. So far, that's led to 2K (via Napa), Bowser, Roberson and Anyanwu.
What I said was that Fox's choice to retain Marty as his primary West Coast recruiter has resulted in 2K, etc. The end result for Fox is the end result. There was no intention to give Marty Wilson specific credit for those players.Shocky1 said:
more deceptively inaccurate misinformation from the censor crediting marty wilson for the recruitments of 2k, bowser, roberson & anyanwu
marty wilson is a low energy recruiter that was retained by your "good human being" wyking jones along with his pal david grace (whose dirty & sketchy sneaker deals have gotten him fired at both ucla & vanderbilt, he is now unemployed living in phx)
half of the guys you listed got nothing to do with anything that marty wilson did, the successful recruitments of marty bowser & marsalis roberson (along with young ivee's childhood friend from montera middle school paris austin) in becoming bears is 100% on cal grad/longtime cal's monster class reader/community activist/state championship bishop o'dowd basketball coach lou richie
yeah lou (who conducts mandatory saturday study sessions for his student athletes) is like shocky, they both mutts
dragons don't go to **** academic schoolz#