CalLifer said:
Cal89 said:
CalLifer said:
Cal89 said:
CalLifer said:
Cal89 said:
bearister said:
"I (vaxed) don't choose to impose upon others, respect unique situations and choices we have with our bodies, as I have consistently."
If a person is not vaxxed and moving amongst the population unmasked, and without social distancing, then it is that person who is doing the "imposing" on both his fellow man and healthcare workers at the hospital.
People are free to make "choices with their own bodies," including pouring gas on themselves and flicking da Bic….so long as they don't put any structures or other people in danger.
The problem is that the type of person who is vax resistant, often does not view it as a civic duty to keep his fellow man safe, and thus they want to hang out with the general population and not deprive themselves. In other words, they want the whole enchilada.
For those parents who don't want their kids vaxxed: that is your absolute right. Home school them and shut the f@uck up. They will learn a lot from you and grow up to be real smart like you are.
There is no conclusive evidence, none, at least as of couple weeks ago, that being vaxed prevents the spread. The vaccines are to protect oneself.
The two most careless people I know were the first in line to get vaxed, then vaxed again actually. They were shopping when most of us were were ordering groceries online. They were seen in Christmas photos with neighbors, with no masks, that type nonsense. They both got the virus at some point, not surprisingly... Idiots.
As of more than a couple weeks ago, there is evidence your statement is at least misleading (being vaccinated does make you less likely to spread the virus):
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/vaccinated-people-are-less-likely-spread-covid-new-research-finds-n1280583
So the vaccines are both to protect yourself and others.
Appreciate the follow-up. But then there is this:
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/579068-vaccinated-just-as-likely-to-spread-delta-variant-as-unvaccinated-study
The vaccine manufactures and CDC stated the intended purpose of the vaccines, as funnily described above (lollipop), was to prevent getting really sick and dying... Darn good reason!
Protecting others? Again, nothing conclusive, and if so, it would certainly be a very welcome side benefit.
Yet, this misinformation creates more division...
One interesting note. In the study that said vaccines were effective in reducing the spread:
Quote:
British scientists at the University of Oxford examined national records of nearly 150,000 contacts that were traced from roughly 100,000 initial cases. The samples included people who were fully or partially vaccinated with either the Pfizer-BioNTech or the AstraZeneca vaccines, as well as people who were unvaccinated. The researchers then looked at how the vaccines affected the spread of the virus if a person had a breakthrough infection with either the alpha variant or the highly contagious delta variant.
Both vaccines reduced transmission, although they were more effective against the alpha variant compared to the delta variant. When infected with the delta variant, a given contact was 65 percent less likely to test positive if the person from whom the exposure occurred was fully vaccinated with two doses of the Pfizer vaccine. With AstraZeneca, a given contact was 36 percent less likely to test positive if the person from whom the exposure occurred was fully vaccinated.
In the study that said they weren't:
Quote:
Researchers examined 621 symptomatic participants in the United Kingdom over a year.
Further, even the latter study acknowledges that the vaccine was effective at reducing the spread of the alpha variant. So at the time when the vaccines were first made available (when the alpha variant was still mostly dominant here), it was still true they helped others as well.
And even with this, the point is still valid that we could have reached herd immunity if basically everyone who was eligible had gotten the vaccine. Delta is still around because we have enough of the pop that is still unvaccinated, leading to breakthrough cases in the vaccinated.
Agreed, it's somewhat mixed. I can share other studies, believe me. It does seem it might help with the spread, more so in the weeks just after the jab/s. Again, nothing conclusive as of yet, as I stated.
Being a "My body, my choice" supporter, I remain true to that position here. Again, if this were bubonic plague like, I can see that position taking a backseat in such a dire scenario.
I wear a mask when around others, regardless of anyone's vax status because the evidence shows we all can be carriers.
I encourage folks to read-up on the current positions of other countries with respect to vaccines. They are quite enlightening and compelling. I had previously mentioned the Scandinavian nations, as an example.
The vaccine is doing what it was designed to do, and quite well, but only for a few months it seems. I currently have zero interest in a booster, but maybe I will at a later time, for various reasons...
I guess this (bolded part) confuses me. As of two days ago, the death toll in the US is 750K (and excess mortality probably means it is more). It is also true that without extreme measures (long but not complete lockdowns, school closures, etc) and the introduction of a vaccine in record time, the death count would have been significantly higher. 2020 was the first year since right after WWII that > 1% of the US population died. I guess this feels like it should be that level of alarm and that level of mobilization.
It's quite enlightening to look at such figures for other countries, including those that were more Draconian in their responses, to those that did next to nothing. Very enlightening. The virus, one way or another, is running its course...
Being someone who was following this virus long before most here even heard of it, I tend to think we lost people long before we were even aware or had the capability to flag them as COVID deaths. I have family and friends in Taiwan, most especially students who I taught English at hospitals decades ago, who still work in healthcare and at at very high levels. They had boots on the ground in China, and they knew something serious was happening, but being suppressed in 2019. Before retirement, one of colleagues was located in Wuhan. What she explained was horrific. Who knows how many died as a result of this virus. We also know that here in the States the opposite was true at times, that people who died in auto accidents and in other such incidents, if they were found to have COVID, it was provided as a reason for death. There were financial incentives for doing so and that impacted the numbers upward, in a multitude of ways. The CDC confirmed such. I have kids to pick-up from school, but such links exist, with CDC personnel quoted... And, not surprisingly, there were political reasons too, and there exists many accounts indicating such.
The vast, vast majority of deaths were those much later in years, and especially those with noteworthy health issues. The nursing home negligence, and that's being generous, certainly comes-to-mind, and was beyond tragic. It's very clear COVID expedited such deaths. Of course there were more deaths last year, and if not mistaken, maybe even more so this year. The virus itself though is nothing remotely Malthusian, bubonic-like.
I have just one friend not vaccinated. He's younger than me at 45, strong and fit with zero health issues. Various metrics and COVID risk calculators have him at like 0.002% and 0.04% risk of death and hospitalization, respectively. I support his decision. I'm similar to him score-wise, but chose to get vaccinated, for personal and family reasons being a deciding factor. I have never been more sick in the last few years as I was after the Moderna jabs. I guess that's a good thing though, who knows... There's the unknown.
Sig test...
