SadbutTrue999 said:

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BigDaddy said:

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The Pac-12 is in a precarious position, but imo not due to Oregon, Washington and Stanford landing in the B1G. I think Notre Dame's entry into the B1G has cooled a bit, which jams the rest of it up for other programs waiting in line. ACC Grant of Rights part of that, ESPN is part of it, plus the Irish have always slow played joining a league and will do so only at the last possible moment and only on their terms.

The real danger for the Pac-12 in the near term will be the Arizonas, Utah and Colorado breaking away to the Big XII when they decide they've had enough of the league where they are seen as second class citizens.

One big problem for Cal imo is that they've been forced to navigate realignment alone. They are isolated, without any significant partners. USC paired with rival UCLA. Oregon and Washington are working together.

Stanford has thrown their lot in with Notre Dame, the program they see that provides them a passport into the B1G.

As mentioned, the "four corner" schools are also allied. It even appears that Wazzu and Oregon St have partnered, hoping to find themselves a soft landing in the Mountain West if they can't get Big XII membership.

Cal has no partners here, and no real leverage with the any of the networks or the B1G.All in all, it's a pretty bad hand.

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There clearly is a 'sky-is-falling' outcome, where Stanford/UW/Oregon join ND in the Big 10. It wouldn't shock me, and it had me in a pretty rough spot the day the news broke.

But there is no clear evidence that the Big 10 is interested it growing any further. It has to move pretty fast because the Pac 12 (10) will be inking a new TV deal, and there's a chance that pushes any further change out 5-10+ years.

And there has been no indication that Stanford is discussing anything with ND. You're assuming Stanford is willing to forsake a century and a half of ties w/ the countries' leading public institution, located right next to it... in favor of a private religious school that does no research, just because they've played football annually for a decade or two. Old Blues who have been around longer than me will know better, but that does not sound like the Stanford administration I know of.

I could be wrong, but I think people vastly overestimate the Stanford / Notre Dame relationship. Notre Dame uses Stanford to reach California and get viewers to equate the two academically. Stanford gets much less out of the relationship

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It looks more and more as time goes by that ND will stand pat for at least another two years. The $$$ equation just isn't there for a move. This is as far as realignment goes for now.

Recruits who are holding off, waiting to see what happens, should make their decisions now, on the basis of what school will take the best care of them and make them happy. The League? They will find you if you are in Peoria A & T...and you are good enough. $$$? It's a guess; not that much gets in the recruit's pocket; and it could end in any number of ways. You chase riches at your peril.

fat_slice said:

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berserkeley said:

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fat_slice said:

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berserkeley said:

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fat_slice said:

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maxer said:

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fat_slice said:

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Just want to set people's expectations. Like so many years of Cal football results, we always have high hopes that get burned.

Let me just end all the anxiety for everyone ... We will not have a viable football team after this year. Things are moving at lightening speeding and Cal has No, nada, whatever language you cab say no in, seat at the table in all the realignment talk. People are overestimating the value of the northern California media market where interest in college football (let alone NFL) is subpar. What's more, we don't even have a mediocre history of success and our AD and Chancellor have no clout. Anyone disagree?

Given the above - where do you think we belong? The chickens have finally come to roost and we are getting what our admin deserves ... The end of football and any future success of all other sports on campus.

You think it can't get worse? Of course it will - the best students ...those with both the brain and athletic skills will not choose Cal and longer term this will hit our academic reputation. We are already #2 public uni in the US.

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Yes. I disagree. I think you don't know what you're talking about.

Could get Cal left out in the cold? Sure. I think it's unlikely though, for the many many reasons that I, and others have posted in many many other threads.

If assuming the absolute worst case scenario helps you manage your anxiety, that's cool, but if you invite comment you're going to get it.

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I feel like I've read every article out there including the comments/perceptions plus everything on this board and what I have seen from cal football over the 30 years I've been following. I have not seen one post, let alone an actual news article that provides a viable/sensible ray of hope.

Can you summarize your thought on the most likely outcome and why? Any deal with Big 12 was just squashed, ACC loose partnership seems not financially viable (per ESPN article), B1G is going to take Oregon, UW, and Stanford if ND comes ... What makes you think we will land even in a semi-OK spot? The media market we are in? If that is what you're banking on my personal feeling is that it is not enough. In fact if that is all that matters than any conference that is doing the poaching will just take Stanford. You don't need Cal ...

I am just calling it as I see it - if you have any basis why it's unlikely we get left out, I'd love to hear it.

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You clearly have not read every article out there as several initially mentioned Cal as a Big Ten possibility. Did you see that the former head of Fox Sports estimated Cal/Stanford to be worth $30 million more than Washington/Oregon? So your prediction that Cal has zero chance of making it isn't based on any general consensus.

And your prediction that this will be the last year of major college football at Cal seems way off. The general consensus seems to have settled on the Big Ten and SEC remaining at 16 until either ND decides to join a conference and/or someone figures out how to pierce the ACC grant of rights. And that as long as the Big Ten and SEC stay at 16, the Pac12-2 will remain together. The Pac-12-2 seems to believe that the Big XII-4+2-2+4 won't get a TV deal that would make any Pac-12-2 bolt.

Now, if you're saying that under the new TV contracts, the Pac-12-2 won't be major college football because of the financial disadvantage, then sure. But that applies to the Clemsons and Florida States of the world too.

And at this point, once teams figure out how to get out of the the ACC grant of rights, no one can predict what will happen next because what happens next largely depends on which TV network picks up which ACC teams.

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I did read those articles that came out when all this broke. Everything I have read since then has almost never mentioned Cal. We've been grouped as with WSU, OSU into the MWC.

That aside, what I meant by this being the last season of major college football at Cal is that what is happening currently, while it doesn't formally take place 2+ years from now, the impact is immediate. All the recruits we are competing with UCLA, Wisconsin, Michigan etc - you think those 2023 recruits will come here now? Do you think our solid-to-star players are going to stick around after next year if we are not in B1G? Even if the PAC-12 saves itself, do you think they will stay given an offer from one of those schools? Do you think any of our promising coaches (if we have them) will stick around? Our football program goes bust after this year unless we have some clarity.

If this doesn't happen soon, we will be left out -- we have no leadership so if the B1G decides to take more teams 5 years from now... guess what? They are taking SDST because we've continued floundering for the past 5 years with below average recruits, coaches, and most of all, admin.

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So you have in fact read more than one article that gives Cal a ray of hope then. After the initial round of Cal being a possibility, the consensus has moved to the Big Ten taking no one and the Pac12-2 staying together. Of course, that could change quickly if the Big XII minus Texas and Oklahoma gets a much better deal than the Pac-12 without USC and UCLA.

As for your doom and gloom over Cal recruiting and retention, that applies to every Pac-12, Big XII, ACC team. Every team not in the Big Ten and SEC are in the same exact boat. Yes, it's possible that by the time the ACC grant of rights is pierced, the Big Ten and SEC will have so greatly distanced themselves from the rest of the pack that neither conference decides to expand.

And, no, in 5 years, the Big Ten would not take SDSU over Cal.

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If SDSU (or any other podunk U) joins the pac-12 and kicks our behinds for 5 years, I don't think it's a no brainer that they would jump us in the B1G sweepstakes.

The Oregon's, Washington's Clemson's, Florida Sts, Miami's have a lot less to worry about -- they get so much admin support they will find a why to stay competitive and worst come to worst, will join the B1G/SEC at their first opp. The doom and gloom is for all the other colleges and yes that is correct -- all these colleges are going to be royally screwed.

I'm not trying to disagree for you - I just honestly don't see a realistic way that we survive this. The only scenario I see that happening is if the ACC and pac-12 officially merge. We could then potentially be a close 3rd to SEC/B1G. The latter though actually happening seems to be a pipe dream. A loose alliance just sounds like a stop gap.

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I also don't disagree that Cal ending up in the MWC (or worse, cuts football altogether) is all too likely. The only thing I disagree with is this has been universally accepted as the only possible outcome for Cal by the broader sports media.

Everyone thinks Oregon and Washington are shoo-ins for the Big Ten, but the former president of Fox Sports said that Cal and Stanford are worth more to TV networks. And his opinion is worth more than all other opinions combined. So it isn't obvious that Cal has no chance at the Big Ten.

It also isn't obvious that the Big Ten or SEC will expand within the next 14 years or even that they will even raid the ACC once they've waited those 14 years for the right to do so. And, if they don't, I do think that the best of the rest (Pac-12, Big XII, ACC) will form a national super conference that at least keeps them in the game even if at a distance third. Separately, the three aren't even in the game. So Pac-10 then new conference is also possible.

But as long as the Pac-10 sticks together, which looks likely at this point, Cal will be a major conference team. And I'm not sure that the Big Ten / SEC bottom feeders will have a recruiting advantage over the top halves of the Pac-12-2, Big XII, ACC type. But I get your point that Cal won't be a upper team in the Pac-12-2. I think NIL is the bigger threat to Cal football and recruiting.

BigDaddy said:

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berserkeley said:

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So you have in fact read more than one article that gives Cal a ray of hope then. After the initial round of Cal being a possibility, the consensus has moved to the Big Ten taking no one and the Pac12-2 staying together. Of course, that could change quickly if the Big XII minus Texas and Oklahoma gets a much better deal than the Pac-12 without USC and UCLA.

As for your doom and gloom over Cal recruiting and retention, that applies to every Pac-12, Big XII, ACC team. Every team not in the Big Ten and SEC are in the same exact boat. Yes, it's possible that by the time the ACC grant of rights is pierced, the Big Ten and SEC will have so greatly distanced themselves from the rest of the pack that neither conference decides to expand.

And, no, in 5 years, the Big Ten would not take SDSU over Cal.

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The Pac-12-2 is in a very precarious position, because it is a very real possibility that the "Four Corners" schools... some combination or all of ASU, UofA, Utah and Colorado... bolt for the Big XII.

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If the Pac-12-2 TV deal is really bad, then, yes, that's certainly possible. But why anyone would think the Big XII would get a better TV deal (especially since they have more mouths to feed, smaller TV markets, and smaller national brands) is beyond me. The former Big XII commissioner said the Big XII lost half its media value with Texas and Oklahoma's departure. I don't think adding BYU, Houston, Cincy, and UCF recouped that and then some.

SadbutTrue999 said:

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BigDaddy said:

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The Pac-12 is in a precarious position, but imo not due to Oregon, Washington and Stanford landing in the B1G. I think Notre Dame's entry into the B1G has cooled a bit, which jams the rest of it up for other programs waiting in line. ACC Grant of Rights part of that, ESPN is part of it, plus the Irish have always slow played joining a league and will do so only at the last possible moment and only on their terms.

The real danger for the Pac-12 in the near term will be the Arizonas, Utah and Colorado breaking away to the Big XII when they decide they've had enough of the league where they are seen as second class citizens.

One big problem for Cal imo is that they've been forced to navigate realignment alone. They are isolated, without any significant partners. USC paired with rival UCLA. Oregon and Washington are working together.

Stanford has thrown their lot in with Notre Dame, the program they see that provides them a passport into the B1G.

As mentioned, the "four corner" schools are also allied. It even appears that Wazzu and Oregon St have partnered, hoping to find themselves a soft landing in the Mountain West if they can't get Big XII membership.

Cal has no partners here, and no real leverage with the any of the networks or the B1G.All in all, it's a pretty bad hand.

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There clearly is a 'sky-is-falling' outcome, where Stanford/UW/Oregon join ND in the Big 10. It wouldn't shock me, and it had me in a pretty rough spot the day the news broke.

But there is no clear evidence that the Big 10 is interested it growing any further. It has to move pretty fast because the Pac 12 (10) will be inking a new TV deal, and there's a chance that pushes any further change out 5-10+ years.

And there has been no indication that Stanford is discussing anything with ND. You're assuming Stanford is willing to forsake a century and a half of ties w/ the countries' leading public institution, located right next to it... in favor of a private religious school that does no research, just because they've played football annually for a decade or two. Old Blues who have been around longer than me will know better, but that does not sound like the Stanford administration I know of.

I could be wrong, but I think people vastly overestimate the Stanford / Notre Dame relationship. Notre Dame uses Stanford to reach California and get viewers to equate the two academically. Stanford gets much less out of the relationship

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Plus, isn't Notre Dame still pissed at the Stanfurd Band? (If they're not, they should be!)

philly1121 said:

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SadbutTrue999 said:

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BigDaddy said:

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The Pac-12 is in a precarious position, but imo not due to Oregon, Washington and Stanford landing in the B1G. I think Notre Dame's entry into the B1G has cooled a bit, which jams the rest of it up for other programs waiting in line. ACC Grant of Rights part of that, ESPN is part of it, plus the Irish have always slow played joining a league and will do so only at the last possible moment and only on their terms.

The real danger for the Pac-12 in the near term will be the Arizonas, Utah and Colorado breaking away to the Big XII when they decide they've had enough of the league where they are seen as second class citizens.

One big problem for Cal imo is that they've been forced to navigate realignment alone. They are isolated, without any significant partners. USC paired with rival UCLA. Oregon and Washington are working together.

Stanford has thrown their lot in with Notre Dame, the program they see that provides them a passport into the B1G.

As mentioned, the "four corner" schools are also allied. It even appears that Wazzu and Oregon St have partnered, hoping to find themselves a soft landing in the Mountain West if they can't get Big XII membership.

Cal has no partners here, and no real leverage with the any of the networks or the B1G.All in all, it's a pretty bad hand.

---

There clearly is a 'sky-is-falling' outcome, where Stanford/UW/Oregon join ND in the Big 10. It wouldn't shock me, and it had me in a pretty rough spot the day the news broke.

But there is no clear evidence that the Big 10 is interested it growing any further. It has to move pretty fast because the Pac 12 (10) will be inking a new TV deal, and there's a chance that pushes any further change out 5-10+ years.

And there has been no indication that Stanford is discussing anything with ND. You're assuming Stanford is willing to forsake a century and a half of ties w/ the countries' leading public institution, located right next to it... in favor of a private religious school that does no research, just because they've played football annually for a decade or two. Old Blues who have been around longer than me will know better, but that does not sound like the Stanford administration I know of.

I could be wrong, but I think people vastly overestimate the Stanford / Notre Dame relationship. Notre Dame uses Stanford to reach California and get viewers to equate the two academically. Stanford gets much less out of the relationship

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I think you make some solid points but, when its about money and tv deals, then there really is no such thing as tradition anymore, right? Schools would be willing to forsake a century old rivalry if, in exchange, they were to increase their income by $10-20 million annually? Cal who?

While the Stanford-Notre Dame relationship may be overestimated, Notre Dame does not need to play Stanford to gain entry into the Bay Area media market. I think Notre Dame is the only single school that has a TV deal with NBC and broadcasts their games nationally every weekend. They don't need any school to help their reach. They already have it. Stanford gets more out of the relationship because they need Notre Dame more than ND needs them.

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That's true for the media market. (btw: NBC only televises ND's home games.) That said, ND loves its sojourns to the Coast for recruiting purposes. Their annual trip out is a chance to meet the local Catholic High school athletes and their parents, with a recognition to mom/dad that if they send their kid to Indiana to school, they will always have one game on the Coast each year.

Big Dog said:

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philly1121 said:

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SadbutTrue999 said:

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BigDaddy said:

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The Pac-12 is in a precarious position, but imo not due to Oregon, Washington and Stanford landing in the B1G. I think Notre Dame's entry into the B1G has cooled a bit, which jams the rest of it up for other programs waiting in line. ACC Grant of Rights part of that, ESPN is part of it, plus the Irish have always slow played joining a league and will do so only at the last possible moment and only on their terms.

The real danger for the Pac-12 in the near term will be the Arizonas, Utah and Colorado breaking away to the Big XII when they decide they've had enough of the league where they are seen as second class citizens.

One big problem for Cal imo is that they've been forced to navigate realignment alone. They are isolated, without any significant partners. USC paired with rival UCLA. Oregon and Washington are working together.

Stanford has thrown their lot in with Notre Dame, the program they see that provides them a passport into the B1G.

As mentioned, the "four corner" schools are also allied. It even appears that Wazzu and Oregon St have partnered, hoping to find themselves a soft landing in the Mountain West if they can't get Big XII membership.

Cal has no partners here, and no real leverage with the any of the networks or the B1G.All in all, it's a pretty bad hand.

---

There clearly is a 'sky-is-falling' outcome, where Stanford/UW/Oregon join ND in the Big 10. It wouldn't shock me, and it had me in a pretty rough spot the day the news broke.

But there is no clear evidence that the Big 10 is interested it growing any further. It has to move pretty fast because the Pac 12 (10) will be inking a new TV deal, and there's a chance that pushes any further change out 5-10+ years.

And there has been no indication that Stanford is discussing anything with ND. You're assuming Stanford is willing to forsake a century and a half of ties w/ the countries' leading public institution, located right next to it... in favor of a private religious school that does no research, just because they've played football annually for a decade or two. Old Blues who have been around longer than me will know better, but that does not sound like the Stanford administration I know of.

I could be wrong, but I think people vastly overestimate the Stanford / Notre Dame relationship. Notre Dame uses Stanford to reach California and get viewers to equate the two academically. Stanford gets much less out of the relationship

---

I think you make some solid points but, when its about money and tv deals, then there really is no such thing as tradition anymore, right? Schools would be willing to forsake a century old rivalry if, in exchange, they were to increase their income by $10-20 million annually? Cal who?

While the Stanford-Notre Dame relationship may be overestimated, Notre Dame does not need to play Stanford to gain entry into the Bay Area media market. I think Notre Dame is the only single school that has a TV deal with NBC and broadcasts their games nationally every weekend. They don't need any school to help their reach. They already have it. Stanford gets more out of the relationship because they need Notre Dame more than ND needs them.

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That's true for the media market. (btw: NBC only televises ND's home games.) That said, ND loves its sojourns to the Coast for recruiting purposes. Their annual trip out is a chance to meet the local Catholic High school athletes and their parents, with a recognition to mom/dad that if they send their kid to Indiana to school, they will always have one game on the Coast each year.

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Well, look at it this way. Notre Dame gets 6-7 games at home. All are televised. For 2022, for away games they play Ohio State at Columbus (televised), Navy (always televised), Syracuse (not sure if televised), USC (always televised), and North Carolina (probably televised on ESPN). All their games are on TV or likely will be and will likely be nationally televised apart from the North Carolina game.

Notre Dame does just fine on the West Coast. The USC game alone secures their presence in SoCal. In terms of TV exposure, they don't need Stanford.

Notre Dame's road games are pretty much always selected by a major network, because they bring viewers.

philly1121 said:

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Big Dog said:

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philly1121 said:

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SadbutTrue999 said:

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BigDaddy said:

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The Pac-12 is in a precarious position, but imo not due to Oregon, Washington and Stanford landing in the B1G. I think Notre Dame's entry into the B1G has cooled a bit, which jams the rest of it up for other programs waiting in line. ACC Grant of Rights part of that, ESPN is part of it, plus the Irish have always slow played joining a league and will do so only at the last possible moment and only on their terms.

The real danger for the Pac-12 in the near term will be the Arizonas, Utah and Colorado breaking away to the Big XII when they decide they've had enough of the league where they are seen as second class citizens.

One big problem for Cal imo is that they've been forced to navigate realignment alone. They are isolated, without any significant partners. USC paired with rival UCLA. Oregon and Washington are working together.

Stanford has thrown their lot in with Notre Dame, the program they see that provides them a passport into the B1G.

As mentioned, the "four corner" schools are also allied. It even appears that Wazzu and Oregon St have partnered, hoping to find themselves a soft landing in the Mountain West if they can't get Big XII membership.

Cal has no partners here, and no real leverage with the any of the networks or the B1G.All in all, it's a pretty bad hand.

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There clearly is a 'sky-is-falling' outcome, where Stanford/UW/Oregon join ND in the Big 10. It wouldn't shock me, and it had me in a pretty rough spot the day the news broke.

But there is no clear evidence that the Big 10 is interested it growing any further. It has to move pretty fast because the Pac 12 (10) will be inking a new TV deal, and there's a chance that pushes any further change out 5-10+ years.

And there has been no indication that Stanford is discussing anything with ND. You're assuming Stanford is willing to forsake a century and a half of ties w/ the countries' leading public institution, located right next to it... in favor of a private religious school that does no research, just because they've played football annually for a decade or two. Old Blues who have been around longer than me will know better, but that does not sound like the Stanford administration I know of.

I could be wrong, but I think people vastly overestimate the Stanford / Notre Dame relationship. Notre Dame uses Stanford to reach California and get viewers to equate the two academically. Stanford gets much less out of the relationship

---

I think you make some solid points but, when its about money and tv deals, then there really is no such thing as tradition anymore, right? Schools would be willing to forsake a century old rivalry if, in exchange, they were to increase their income by $10-20 million annually? Cal who?

While the Stanford-Notre Dame relationship may be overestimated, Notre Dame does not need to play Stanford to gain entry into the Bay Area media market. I think Notre Dame is the only single school that has a TV deal with NBC and broadcasts their games nationally every weekend. They don't need any school to help their reach. They already have it. Stanford gets more out of the relationship because they need Notre Dame more than ND needs them.

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That's true for the media market. (btw: NBC only televises ND's home games.) That said, ND loves its sojourns to the Coast for recruiting purposes. Their annual trip out is a chance to meet the local Catholic High school athletes and their parents, with a recognition to mom/dad that if they send their kid to Indiana to school, they will always have one game on the Coast each year.

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Notre Dame does just fine on the West Coast. The USC game alone secures their presence in SoCal. In terms of TV exposure, they don't need Stanford.

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Notre Dame plays Stanford so they can finish each season (alternating with USC) with a November roadie in California.

philly1121 said:

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Big Dog said:

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philly1121 said:

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SadbutTrue999 said:

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BigDaddy said:

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The Pac-12 is in a precarious position, but imo not due to Oregon, Washington and Stanford landing in the B1G. I think Notre Dame's entry into the B1G has cooled a bit, which jams the rest of it up for other programs waiting in line. ACC Grant of Rights part of that, ESPN is part of it, plus the Irish have always slow played joining a league and will do so only at the last possible moment and only on their terms.

The real danger for the Pac-12 in the near term will be the Arizonas, Utah and Colorado breaking away to the Big XII when they decide they've had enough of the league where they are seen as second class citizens.

One big problem for Cal imo is that they've been forced to navigate realignment alone. They are isolated, without any significant partners. USC paired with rival UCLA. Oregon and Washington are working together.

Stanford has thrown their lot in with Notre Dame, the program they see that provides them a passport into the B1G.

As mentioned, the "four corner" schools are also allied. It even appears that Wazzu and Oregon St have partnered, hoping to find themselves a soft landing in the Mountain West if they can't get Big XII membership.

Cal has no partners here, and no real leverage with the any of the networks or the B1G.All in all, it's a pretty bad hand.

---

There clearly is a 'sky-is-falling' outcome, where Stanford/UW/Oregon join ND in the Big 10. It wouldn't shock me, and it had me in a pretty rough spot the day the news broke.

But there is no clear evidence that the Big 10 is interested it growing any further. It has to move pretty fast because the Pac 12 (10) will be inking a new TV deal, and there's a chance that pushes any further change out 5-10+ years.

And there has been no indication that Stanford is discussing anything with ND. You're assuming Stanford is willing to forsake a century and a half of ties w/ the countries' leading public institution, located right next to it... in favor of a private religious school that does no research, just because they've played football annually for a decade or two. Old Blues who have been around longer than me will know better, but that does not sound like the Stanford administration I know of.

I could be wrong, but I think people vastly overestimate the Stanford / Notre Dame relationship. Notre Dame uses Stanford to reach California and get viewers to equate the two academically. Stanford gets much less out of the relationship

---

I think you make some solid points but, when its about money and tv deals, then there really is no such thing as tradition anymore, right? Schools would be willing to forsake a century old rivalry if, in exchange, they were to increase their income by $10-20 million annually? Cal who?

While the Stanford-Notre Dame relationship may be overestimated, Notre Dame does not need to play Stanford to gain entry into the Bay Area media market. I think Notre Dame is the only single school that has a TV deal with NBC and broadcasts their games nationally every weekend. They don't need any school to help their reach. They already have it. Stanford gets more out of the relationship because they need Notre Dame more than ND needs them.

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That's true for the media market. (btw: NBC only televises ND's home games.) That said, ND loves its sojourns to the Coast for recruiting purposes. Their annual trip out is a chance to meet the local Catholic High school athletes and their parents, with a recognition to mom/dad that if they send their kid to Indiana to school, they will always have one game on the Coast each year.

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Well, look at it this way. Notre Dame gets 6-7 games at home. All are televised. For 2022, for away games they play Ohio State at Columbus (televised), Navy (always televised), Syracuse (not sure if televised), USC (always televised), and North Carolina (probably televised on ESPN). All their games are on TV or likely will be and will likely be nationally televised apart from the North Carolina game.

Notre Dame does just fine on the West Coast. The USC game alone secures their presence in SoCal. In terms of TV exposure, they don't need Stanford.

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yes, every other year. By including Stanford on teh schedule, they are in California every fall.