TheSouseFamily said:

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I'm certainly not gonna bemoan Giants fans for taking pride in winning 3 WS titles in 5 years. That's an impressive accomplishment by any standard and a nice feather in the cap. Any reasonable, honest Dodger fan would be envious of that. So too, any reasonable, honest Giants fan would be envious of the Dodgers winning the division 5 years in a row, having the current title of National League Champions and beating the pants off the Giants by 40 games this year. There's also the small matter of what things look like going forward and the early 2018 power rankings released today reflect a positive future for the Dodgers and a rather gray one for Frisco.

We Dodger fans are happy about being able to celebrate our past, our present AND our future, knowing that our rivals can't do the same. Sure, we're envious of those titles and congratulate you for them, even as they recede further and further in the rear view mirror. Hopefully at some point, your biggest source of jubilation will once again be something YOU do, not just seeing the Dodgers lose a game 7 of the World Series to someone else. It's way more fun anyway when both teams are good.

---

This Giants fan is not envious of LA's five division championships at all. In fact, the Giants won a World Series during one of those years. Why should Giants fans be envious? Division titles mean nothing in this era of the wild card.

Quite frankly, both franchises have much to be proud of. For example, the Giants have won more games than any team in the history of the big leagues and the Dodgers broke the color line. Not too shabby......

I am not jealous of LA's success. I just root against them because they are my team's principal rival. Think of it this way... I always root against Stanford for the same reason. However, I am hardly jealous of their success when they do well. I just hope Cal does better.

71Bear said:

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TheSouseFamily said:

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I'm certainly not gonna bemoan Giants fans for taking pride in winning 3 WS titles in 5 years. That's an impressive accomplishment by any standard and a nice feather in the cap. Any reasonable, honest Dodger fan would be envious of that. So too, any reasonable, honest Giants fan would be envious of the Dodgers winning the division 5 years in a row, having the current title of National League Champions and beating the pants off the Giants by 40 games this year. There's also the small matter of what things look like going forward and the early 2018 power rankings released today reflect a positive future for the Dodgers and a rather gray one for Frisco.

We Dodger fans are happy about being able to celebrate our past, our present AND our future, knowing that our rivals can't do the same. Sure, we're envious of those titles and congratulate you for them, even as they recede further and further in the rear view mirror. Hopefully at some point, your biggest source of jubilation will once again be something YOU do, not just seeing the Dodgers lose a game 7 of the World Series to someone else. It's way more fun anyway when both teams are good.

---

This Giants fan is not envious of LA's five division championships at all. In fact, the Giants won a World Series during one of those years. Why should Giants fans be envious? Division titles mean nothing in this era of the wild card.

Quite frankly, both franchises have much to be proud of. For example, the Giants have won more games than any team in the history of the big leagues and the Dodgers broke the color line. Not too shabby......

I am not jealous of LA's success. I just root against them because they are my team's principal rival. Think of it this way... I always root against Stanford for the same reason. However, I am hardly jealous of their success when they do well. I just hope Cal does better.

---

Not buying it in the slightest. I'm sure you'd turn your nose up at Cal winning a PAC-12 title simply because we didn't win the national championship too, right?

Cal8285 said:

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71Bear said:

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Cal8285 said:

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Looperbear said:

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Sucks that the franchise that condones racism prevailed over the franchise that did more than any other to defeat racism.

---

Well, a "franchise" doesn't really get to claim its past actions as its own when the people responsible for those actions were forced out long ago in a nasty coup, and there have been so many changings of the guard that it is irrelevant.

If the Dodgers hadn't lost the claim to what "they" did to intergrate baseball when Branch Rickey was forced out, then they lost it when the took the biggest crap in the history of sports on the fans who supported them through a lot of decades of being crappy, the occasional heartbreak, and most importantly, the integration of baseball. O'Malley even suckered Stoneham into leaving lucrative New York for San Francisco, which would never be the financial windfall that LA is, but all that aside, the O'Malleys deserved no credit for helping defeat racism in baseball, and neither does the current organization.

I won't blame current ownership for some of the many racist decisions made since the franchise moved to LA, those decisions were made by previous owners, but neither should the current franchise get much credit for what they have absolutely nothing to do with.

---

"which would never be the financial windfall that LA is"...

Forbes most recent ranking of sports franchise values...

LA is valued at 2.75 billion
SF is valued at 2.65 billion

Both are in the Top 20 of all franchises in all sports in the world.

Both play in stadiums that were built and are owned by the franchise and both are completely paid off.

I would suggest that the franchises have both been incredibly successful from a financial point of view.

---

The Forbes numbers don't really reflect the difference in the kind of windfall LA was versus SF. Forbes does funny things with TV numbers. Forbes doesn't include any real estate values in their valuation. Additionally, in the last sale, McCourt didn't sell all of what O'Malley got in coming to LA, notably the parking lots, so part of the financial windfall of moving to LA has been split up and is no longer part of the Dodgers, but if we're assessing the financial windfall of moving to LA versus SF, that needs to be taken into account.

The quality of management also affects the Forbes numbers a lot, and Giants management over the last 20 years versus the quality of Dodger management over the last 20 years has affected the numbers. The number one reason why the Mets are as low as they are is incompetent management. A New York team with competent management will be more valuable than a San Francisco team. All else equal, the Giants would have been financially better off in New York. The Dodgers got such a good deal to move, they almost certainly benefited financially by abandoning their loyal fans and moving.

Local TV money still favors the Dodgers over the Giants by a lot, although the current deal screwed things up pretty good so far. In terms of how many local fans will show up for games, the Dodgers have a big advantage. Because the Giants have a better park in a better location, they get more tourist attendance, which helps offset the fact that the locals will not attend in the same numbers, and the difference in how many locals will show up is reduced because the Giants have the better park that is more easily accessed by public transit. Another advantage is the Dodgers own their land, the Giants do not. The Giants may own the stadium, they may have a long term land lease, but they don't own the land.

But flip back 60 years, and the Dodgers deal was absurdly more valuable than the Giants. There is a reason why SF came VERY close to losing the Giants twice, once coming within minutes of losing them to Toronto (not 2 seconds like Verlander almost not going to Houston, but less than half an hour). They didn't get land for a stadium, they had a much smaller area to draw from, and a much smaller TV market. Obviously the screw up of the location of the ballpark was a big deal, and hurt the Giants for their first 40 years, but even without that, the Dodgers deal was tons better.

Some factors have changed to help SF, like that 42 years after the move, the Giants got a better stadium in a better location than Dodgers Stadium, and the Silicon Valley boom resulted in a lot more corporate money paying for sponsorships and high end tickets.

Still, the Giants will never be able to be the top payroll team in MLB like the Dodgers can be, because SF will never be the financial windfall for the Giants that LA was for the Dodgers (and one reason why the Forbes value difference is smaller is because LA spends more of the money they get).

---

You failed to mention the Mission Rock project and how that will impact the Giants bottom line. The financial windfall that project will produce will dwarf the TV contracts of both clubs. LA has nothing in comparison.

TheSouseFamily said:

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71Bear said:

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TheSouseFamily said:

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I'm certainly not gonna bemoan Giants fans for taking pride in winning 3 WS titles in 5 years. That's an impressive accomplishment by any standard and a nice feather in the cap. Any reasonable, honest Dodger fan would be envious of that. So too, any reasonable, honest Giants fan would be envious of the Dodgers winning the division 5 years in a row, having the current title of National League Champions and beating the pants off the Giants by 40 games this year. There's also the small matter of what things look like going forward and the early 2018 power rankings released today reflect a positive future for the Dodgers and a rather gray one for Frisco.

We Dodger fans are happy about being able to celebrate our past, our present AND our future, knowing that our rivals can't do the same. Sure, we're envious of those titles and congratulate you for them, even as they recede further and further in the rear view mirror. Hopefully at some point, your biggest source of jubilation will once again be something YOU do, not just seeing the Dodgers lose a game 7 of the World Series to someone else. It's way more fun anyway when both teams are good.

---

This Giants fan is not envious of LA's five division championships at all. In fact, the Giants won a World Series during one of those years. Why should Giants fans be envious? Division titles mean nothing in this era of the wild card.

Quite frankly, both franchises have much to be proud of. For example, the Giants have won more games than any team in the history of the big leagues and the Dodgers broke the color line. Not too shabby......

I am not jealous of LA's success. I just root against them because they are my team's principal rival. Think of it this way... I always root against Stanford for the same reason. However, I am hardly jealous of their success when they do well. I just hope Cal does better.

---

Not buying it in the slightest. I'm sure you'd turn your nose up at Cal winning a PAC-12 title simply because we didn't win the national championship too, right?

---

That's more akin to a National League pennant. I'll say it's impressive for the Dodgers to finally get over that hump this year, yes (had also been a 29-year drought until now).

But division titles? Meh. You have to beat four other teams to get that. Not a huge deal, unless you haven't gotten one in a long time.

TheSouseFamily said:

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71Bear said:

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TheSouseFamily said:

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I'm certainly not gonna bemoan Giants fans for taking pride in winning 3 WS titles in 5 years. That's an impressive accomplishment by any standard and a nice feather in the cap. Any reasonable, honest Dodger fan would be envious of that. So too, any reasonable, honest Giants fan would be envious of the Dodgers winning the division 5 years in a row, having the current title of National League Champions and beating the pants off the Giants by 40 games this year. There's also the small matter of what things look like going forward and the early 2018 power rankings released today reflect a positive future for the Dodgers and a rather gray one for Frisco.

We Dodger fans are happy about being able to celebrate our past, our present AND our future, knowing that our rivals can't do the same. Sure, we're envious of those titles and congratulate you for them, even as they recede further and further in the rear view mirror. Hopefully at some point, your biggest source of jubilation will once again be something YOU do, not just seeing the Dodgers lose a game 7 of the World Series to someone else. It's way more fun anyway when both teams are good.

---

This Giants fan is not envious of LA's five division championships at all. In fact, the Giants won a World Series during one of those years. Why should Giants fans be envious? Division titles mean nothing in this era of the wild card.

Quite frankly, both franchises have much to be proud of. For example, the Giants have won more games than any team in the history of the big leagues and the Dodgers broke the color line. Not too shabby......

I am not jealous of LA's success. I just root against them because they are my team's principal rival. Think of it this way... I always root against Stanford for the same reason. However, I am hardly jealous of their success when they do well. I just hope Cal does better.

---

Not buying it in the slightest. I'm sure you'd turn your nose up at Cal winning a PAC-12 title simply because we didn't win the national championship too, right?

---

Apples and oranges... Winning a conference championship in college football is not the same as it once was (because the CFP system allows non conference winners to win the national title) but it still carries weight. In the big leagues, it is all about making the playoffs regardless how you get there (much like the NFL).

A good example...

The Braves won 13 divisional titles in a row and one World Series. What will they be remembered for - yep, only winning one World Series championship during that 13 year run.

sycasey said:

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TheSouseFamily said:

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71Bear said:

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TheSouseFamily said:

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I'm certainly not gonna bemoan Giants fans for taking pride in winning 3 WS titles in 5 years. That's an impressive accomplishment by any standard and a nice feather in the cap. Any reasonable, honest Dodger fan would be envious of that. So too, any reasonable, honest Giants fan would be envious of the Dodgers winning the division 5 years in a row, having the current title of National League Champions and beating the pants off the Giants by 40 games this year. There's also the small matter of what things look like going forward and the early 2018 power rankings released today reflect a positive future for the Dodgers and a rather gray one for Frisco.

We Dodger fans are happy about being able to celebrate our past, our present AND our future, knowing that our rivals can't do the same. Sure, we're envious of those titles and congratulate you for them, even as they recede further and further in the rear view mirror. Hopefully at some point, your biggest source of jubilation will once again be something YOU do, not just seeing the Dodgers lose a game 7 of the World Series to someone else. It's way more fun anyway when both teams are good.

---

This Giants fan is not envious of LA's five division championships at all. In fact, the Giants won a World Series during one of those years. Why should Giants fans be envious? Division titles mean nothing in this era of the wild card.

Quite frankly, both franchises have much to be proud of. For example, the Giants have won more games than any team in the history of the big leagues and the Dodgers broke the color line. Not too shabby......

I am not jealous of LA's success. I just root against them because they are my team's principal rival. Think of it this way... I always root against Stanford for the same reason. However, I am hardly jealous of their success when they do well. I just hope Cal does better.

---

Not buying it in the slightest. I'm sure you'd turn your nose up at Cal winning a PAC-12 title simply because we didn't win the national championship too, right?

---

That's more akin to a National League pennant. I'll say it's impressive for the Dodgers to finally get over that hump this year, yes (had also been a 29-year drought until now).

But division titles? Meh. You have to beat four other teams to get that. Not a huge deal, unless you haven't gotten one in a long time.

---

Well, I'm certainly not gonna deny your right to come up with whatever rationalizations are necessary to comport with your desired narrative. As Cal fans, we've both been fortunate to hone that skill fairly well.

Cal8285 said:

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71Bear said:

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Cal8285 said:

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Looperbear said:

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Sucks that the franchise that condones racism prevailed over the franchise that did more than any other to defeat racism.

---

Well, a "franchise" doesn't really get to claim its past actions as its own when the people responsible for those actions were forced out long ago in a nasty coup, and there have been so many changings of the guard that it is irrelevant.

If the Dodgers hadn't lost the claim to what "they" did to intergrate baseball when Branch Rickey was forced out, then they lost it when the took the biggest crap in the history of sports on the fans who supported them through a lot of decades of being crappy, the occasional heartbreak, and most importantly, the integration of baseball. O'Malley even suckered Stoneham into leaving lucrative New York for San Francisco, which would never be the financial windfall that LA is, but all that aside, the O'Malleys deserved no credit for helping defeat racism in baseball, and neither does the current organization.

I won't blame current ownership for some of the many racist decisions made since the franchise moved to LA, those decisions were made by previous owners, but neither should the current franchise get much credit for what they have absolutely nothing to do with.

---

"which would never be the financial windfall that LA is"...

Forbes most recent ranking of sports franchise values...

LA is valued at 2.75 billion
SF is valued at 2.65 billion

Both are in the Top 20 of all franchises in all sports in the world.

Both play in stadiums that were built and are owned by the franchise and both are completely paid off.

I would suggest that the franchises have both been incredibly successful from a financial point of view.

---

The Forbes numbers don't really reflect the difference in the kind of windfall LA was versus SF. Forbes does funny things with TV numbers. Forbes doesn't include any real estate values in their valuation. Additionally, in the last sale, McCourt didn't sell all of what O'Malley got in coming to LA, notably the parking lots, so part of the financial windfall of moving to LA has been split up and is no longer part of the Dodgers, but if we're assessing the financial windfall of moving to LA versus SF, that needs to be taken into account.

The quality of management also affects the Forbes numbers a lot, and Giants management over the last 20 years versus the quality of Dodger management over the last 20 years has affected the numbers. The number one reason why the Mets are as low as they are is incompetent management. A New York team with competent management will be more valuable than a San Francisco team. All else equal, the Giants would have been financially better off in New York. The Dodgers got such a good deal to move, they almost certainly benefited financially by abandoning their loyal fans and moving.

Local TV money still favors the Dodgers over the Giants by a lot, although the current deal screwed things up pretty good so far. In terms of how many local fans will show up for games, the Dodgers have a big advantage. Because the Giants have a better park in a better location, they get more tourist attendance, which helps offset the fact that the locals will not attend in the same numbers, and the difference in how many locals will show up is reduced because the Giants have the better park that is more easily accessed by public transit. Another advantage is the Dodgers own their land, the Giants do not. The Giants may own the stadium, they may have a long term land lease, but they don't own the land.

But flip back 60 years, and the Dodgers deal was absurdly more valuable than the Giants. There is a reason why SF came VERY close to losing the Giants twice, once coming within minutes of losing them to Toronto (not 2 seconds like Verlander almost not going to Houston, but less than half an hour). They didn't get land for a stadium, they had a much smaller area to draw from, and a much smaller TV market. Obviously the screw up of the location of the ballpark was a big deal, and hurt the Giants for their first 40 years, but even without that, the Dodgers deal was tons better.

Some factors have changed to help SF, like that 42 years after the move, the Giants got a better stadium in a better location than Dodgers Stadium, and the Silicon Valley boom resulted in a lot more corporate money paying for sponsorships and high end tickets.

Still, the Giants will never be able to be the top payroll team in MLB like the Dodgers can be, because SF will never be the financial windfall for the Giants that LA was for the Dodgers (and one reason why the Forbes value difference is smaller is because LA spends more of the money they get).

---

Does the Giants Mission Bay development figure into these numbers? I doubt it. That could potentially be a huge game changer.

TheSouseFamily said:

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sycasey said:

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TheSouseFamily said:

---

71Bear said:

---

TheSouseFamily said:

---

I'm certainly not gonna bemoan Giants fans for taking pride in winning 3 WS titles in 5 years. That's an impressive accomplishment by any standard and a nice feather in the cap. Any reasonable, honest Dodger fan would be envious of that. So too, any reasonable, honest Giants fan would be envious of the Dodgers winning the division 5 years in a row, having the current title of National League Champions and beating the pants off the Giants by 40 games this year. There's also the small matter of what things look like going forward and the early 2018 power rankings released today reflect a positive future for the Dodgers and a rather gray one for Frisco.

We Dodger fans are happy about being able to celebrate our past, our present AND our future, knowing that our rivals can't do the same. Sure, we're envious of those titles and congratulate you for them, even as they recede further and further in the rear view mirror. Hopefully at some point, your biggest source of jubilation will once again be something YOU do, not just seeing the Dodgers lose a game 7 of the World Series to someone else. It's way more fun anyway when both teams are good.

---

This Giants fan is not envious of LA's five division championships at all. In fact, the Giants won a World Series during one of those years. Why should Giants fans be envious? Division titles mean nothing in this era of the wild card.

Quite frankly, both franchises have much to be proud of. For example, the Giants have won more games than any team in the history of the big leagues and the Dodgers broke the color line. Not too shabby......

I am not jealous of LA's success. I just root against them because they are my team's principal rival. Think of it this way... I always root against Stanford for the same reason. However, I am hardly jealous of their success when they do well. I just hope Cal does better.

---

Not buying it in the slightest. I'm sure you'd turn your nose up at Cal winning a PAC-12 title simply because we didn't win the national championship too, right?

---

That's more akin to a National League pennant. I'll say it's impressive for the Dodgers to finally get over that hump this year, yes (had also been a 29-year drought until now).

But division titles? Meh. You have to beat four other teams to get that. Not a huge deal, unless you haven't gotten one in a long time.

---

Well, I'm certainly not gonna deny your right to come up with whatever rationalizations are necessary to comport with your desired narrative. As Cal fans, we've both been fortunate to hone that skill fairly well.

---

FWIW, I felt this way when the Giants made the playoffs a bunch of times during the Bonds years. The first one (1997) felt great, but after that I wanted pennants and titles. Only got one pennant, no championships. They had some great teams, but the failure to pay it off was extremely frustrating.

So I'm guessing it's getting that way for the Dodgers fans now.

NYCGOBEARS said:

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Cal8285 said:

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71Bear said:

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Cal8285 said:

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Looperbear said:

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Sucks that the franchise that condones racism prevailed over the franchise that did more than any other to defeat racism.

---

Well, a "franchise" doesn't really get to claim its past actions as its own when the people responsible for those actions were forced out long ago in a nasty coup, and there have been so many changings of the guard that it is irrelevant.

If the Dodgers hadn't lost the claim to what "they" did to intergrate baseball when Branch Rickey was forced out, then they lost it when the took the biggest crap in the history of sports on the fans who supported them through a lot of decades of being crappy, the occasional heartbreak, and most importantly, the integration of baseball. O'Malley even suckered Stoneham into leaving lucrative New York for San Francisco, which would never be the financial windfall that LA is, but all that aside, the O'Malleys deserved no credit for helping defeat racism in baseball, and neither does the current organization.

I won't blame current ownership for some of the many racist decisions made since the franchise moved to LA, those decisions were made by previous owners, but neither should the current franchise get much credit for what they have absolutely nothing to do with.

---

"which would never be the financial windfall that LA is"...

Forbes most recent ranking of sports franchise values...

LA is valued at 2.75 billion
SF is valued at 2.65 billion

Both are in the Top 20 of all franchises in all sports in the world.

Both play in stadiums that were built and are owned by the franchise and both are completely paid off.

I would suggest that the franchises have both been incredibly successful from a financial point of view.

---

The Forbes numbers don't really reflect the difference in the kind of windfall LA was versus SF. Forbes does funny things with TV numbers. Forbes doesn't include any real estate values in their valuation. Additionally, in the last sale, McCourt didn't sell all of what O'Malley got in coming to LA, notably the parking lots, so part of the financial windfall of moving to LA has been split up and is no longer part of the Dodgers, but if we're assessing the financial windfall of moving to LA versus SF, that needs to be taken into account.

The quality of management also affects the Forbes numbers a lot, and Giants management over the last 20 years versus the quality of Dodger management over the last 20 years has affected the numbers. The number one reason why the Mets are as low as they are is incompetent management. A New York team with competent management will be more valuable than a San Francisco team. All else equal, the Giants would have been financially better off in New York. The Dodgers got such a good deal to move, they almost certainly benefited financially by abandoning their loyal fans and moving.

Local TV money still favors the Dodgers over the Giants by a lot, although the current deal screwed things up pretty good so far. In terms of how many local fans will show up for games, the Dodgers have a big advantage. Because the Giants have a better park in a better location, they get more tourist attendance, which helps offset the fact that the locals will not attend in the same numbers, and the difference in how many locals will show up is reduced because the Giants have the better park that is more easily accessed by public transit. Another advantage is the Dodgers own their land, the Giants do not. The Giants may own the stadium, they may have a long term land lease, but they don't own the land.

But flip back 60 years, and the Dodgers deal was absurdly more valuable than the Giants. There is a reason why SF came VERY close to losing the Giants twice, once coming within minutes of losing them to Toronto (not 2 seconds like Verlander almost not going to Houston, but less than half an hour). They didn't get land for a stadium, they had a much smaller area to draw from, and a much smaller TV market. Obviously the screw up of the location of the ballpark was a big deal, and hurt the Giants for their first 40 years, but even without that, the Dodgers deal was tons better.

Some factors have changed to help SF, like that 42 years after the move, the Giants got a better stadium in a better location than Dodgers Stadium, and the Silicon Valley boom resulted in a lot more corporate money paying for sponsorships and high end tickets.

Still, the Giants will never be able to be the top payroll team in MLB like the Dodgers can be, because SF will never be the financial windfall for the Giants that LA was for the Dodgers (and one reason why the Forbes value difference is smaller is because LA spends more of the money they get).

---

Does the Giants Mission Bay development figure into these numbers? I doubt it. That could potentially be a huge game changer.

---

I don't know. I do know that there is no organized opposition to the project (unheard of in SF) and that they have received approvals from a number of commissions. The final approval will be received in the next couple of months. In combination with the burning of the mortgage on ATT earlier this year, it will be a major game changer for them.

sycasey said:

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TheSouseFamily said:

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sycasey said:

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TheSouseFamily said:

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71Bear said:

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TheSouseFamily said:

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I'm certainly not gonna bemoan Giants fans for taking pride in winning 3 WS titles in 5 years. That's an impressive accomplishment by any standard and a nice feather in the cap. Any reasonable, honest Dodger fan would be envious of that. So too, any reasonable, honest Giants fan would be envious of the Dodgers winning the division 5 years in a row, having the current title of National League Champions and beating the pants off the Giants by 40 games this year. There's also the small matter of what things look like going forward and the early 2018 power rankings released today reflect a positive future for the Dodgers and a rather gray one for Frisco.

We Dodger fans are happy about being able to celebrate our past, our present AND our future, knowing that our rivals can't do the same. Sure, we're envious of those titles and congratulate you for them, even as they recede further and further in the rear view mirror. Hopefully at some point, your biggest source of jubilation will once again be something YOU do, not just seeing the Dodgers lose a game 7 of the World Series to someone else. It's way more fun anyway when both teams are good.

---

This Giants fan is not envious of LA's five division championships at all. In fact, the Giants won a World Series during one of those years. Why should Giants fans be envious? Division titles mean nothing in this era of the wild card.

Quite frankly, both franchises have much to be proud of. For example, the Giants have won more games than any team in the history of the big leagues and the Dodgers broke the color line. Not too shabby......

I am not jealous of LA's success. I just root against them because they are my team's principal rival. Think of it this way... I always root against Stanford for the same reason. However, I am hardly jealous of their success when they do well. I just hope Cal does better.

---

Not buying it in the slightest. I'm sure you'd turn your nose up at Cal winning a PAC-12 title simply because we didn't win the national championship too, right?

---

That's more akin to a National League pennant. I'll say it's impressive for the Dodgers to finally get over that hump this year, yes (had also been a 29-year drought until now).

But division titles? Meh. You have to beat four other teams to get that. Not a huge deal, unless you haven't gotten one in a long time.

---

Well, I'm certainly not gonna deny your right to come up with whatever rationalizations are necessary to comport with your desired narrative. As Cal fans, we've both been fortunate to hone that skill fairly well.

---

FWIW, I felt this way when the Giants made the playoffs a bunch of times during the Bonds years. The first one (1997) felt great, but after that I wanted pennants and titles. Only got one pennant, no championships. They had some great teams, but the failure to pay it off was extremely frustrating.

So I'm guessing it's getting that way for the Dodgers fans now.

---

That's an interesting point. I'm sure for some Dodger fans, the 1988 thing matters, but not for me. We all have our own fan algorithms, weighting various factors differently but I've never been bothered by the "X years since the last Y" issue. It could have been 2 years ago, 29 years ago or 50 and it wouldn't matter much to me. I'm the same way with Cal. I want to go to a Rose Bowl for many reasons but going for the first time in however many years would rank far down the list. But I suspect that for many of us, that matters more. My personal fan algorithm weighs the present much more heavily, then the future. The past gets barely a consideration. Very useful as a Cal fan, incidentally.

TheSouseFamily said:

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That's an interesting point. I'm sure for some Dodger fans, the 1988 thing matters, but not for me. We all have our own fan algorithms, weighting various factors differently but I've never been bothered by the "X years since the last Y" issue. It could have been 2 years ago, 29 years ago or 50 and it wouldn't matter much to me. I'm the same way with Cal. I want to go to a Rose Bowl for many reasons but going for the first time in however many years would rank far down the list. But I suspect that for many of us, that matters more. My personal fan algorithm weighs the present much more heavily, then the future. The past gets barely a consideration. Very useful as a Cal fan, incidentally.

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I don't know, most of the time the present isn't great for Cal fans either.

TheSouseFamily said:

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I'm certainly not gonna bemoan Giants fans for taking pride in winning 3 WS titles in 5 years. That's an impressive accomplishment by any standard and a nice feather in the cap. Any reasonable, honest Dodger fan would be envious of that. So too, any reasonable, honest Giants fan would be envious of the Dodgers winning the division 5 years in a row, having the current title of National League Champions and beating the pants off the Giants by 40 games this year. There's also the small matter of what things look like going forward and the early 2018 power rankings released today reflect a positive future for the Dodgers and a rather gray one for Frisco.

We Dodger fans are happy about being able to celebrate our past, our present AND our future, knowing that our rivals can't do the same. Sure, we're envious of those titles and congratulate you for them, even as they recede further and further in the rear view mirror. Hopefully at some point, your biggest source of jubilation will once again be something YOU do, not just seeing the Dodgers lose a game 7 of the World Series to someone else. It's way more fun anyway when both teams are good.

---

LMAO. 1 World Series Championship is worth about 10,000 division titles.

LethalFang said:

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TheSouseFamily said:

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I'm certainly not gonna bemoan Giants fans for taking pride in winning 3 WS titles in 5 years. That's an impressive accomplishment by any standard and a nice feather in the cap. Any reasonable, honest Dodger fan would be envious of that. So too, any reasonable, honest Giants fan would be envious of the Dodgers winning the division 5 years in a row, having the current title of National League Champions and beating the pants off the Giants by 40 games this year. There's also the small matter of what things look like going forward and the early 2018 power rankings released today reflect a positive future for the Dodgers and a rather gray one for Frisco.

We Dodger fans are happy about being able to celebrate our past, our present AND our future, knowing that our rivals can't do the same. Sure, we're envious of those titles and congratulate you for them, even as they recede further and further in the rear view mirror. Hopefully at some point, your biggest source of jubilation will once again be something YOU do, not just seeing the Dodgers lose a game 7 of the World Series to someone else. It's way more fun anyway when both teams are good.

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LMAO. 1 World Series Championship is worth about 10,000 division titles.

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Oh. Well then good! Glad the Dodgers have more of those then.

I have a feeling that if the Dodgers had been the ones with 3 world championships this decade and the Giants the ones with the division wins (and 1 pennant in 2017) - in that reverse scenario, many Dodger fans would be playing up their 3 championships and scoffing at the Giants' division wins. Maybe TSF wouldn't, but I'm pretty sure most would since that is along the lines of how I noticed most Dodger fans acting before the Giants won their 2010 championship. The most important topic when it came to the Giants was the lack of recent championships to Dodger fans until 2010. After that, it suddenly wasn't.

But in that reverse scenario where the Dodgers had the recent championships and the Giants the recent division wins, maybe Giants fans would be the ones propping themselves up on their division wins and acting like they are in any way comparable to 3 recent world championships. Who knows. Sports fan psychology is funny.

I don't have a horse in the race. I do know that it was a great series, despite the final game.

TheSouseFamily said:

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LethalFang said:

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TheSouseFamily said:

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I'm certainly not gonna bemoan Giants fans for taking pride in winning 3 WS titles in 5 years. That's an impressive accomplishment by any standard and a nice feather in the cap. Any reasonable, honest Dodger fan would be envious of that. So too, any reasonable, honest Giants fan would be envious of the Dodgers winning the division 5 years in a row, having the current title of National League Champions and beating the pants off the Giants by 40 games this year. There's also the small matter of what things look like going forward and the early 2018 power rankings released today reflect a positive future for the Dodgers and a rather gray one for Frisco.

We Dodger fans are happy about being able to celebrate our past, our present AND our future, knowing that our rivals can't do the same. Sure, we're envious of those titles and congratulate you for them, even as they recede further and further in the rear view mirror. Hopefully at some point, your biggest source of jubilation will once again be something YOU do, not just seeing the Dodgers lose a game 7 of the World Series to someone else. It's way more fun anyway when both teams are good.

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LMAO. 1 World Series Championship is worth about 10,000 division titles.

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Oh. Well then good! Glad the Dodgers have more of those then.

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How old are you? I realize you say you don't live in the past, but I find this to be an interesting discussion. I know many don't agree with this, but I don't count titles I don't remember. Cal's teams in the 20s and 30s winning the national title mean nothing to me, other than an interesting footnote, because I was not alive and cannot remember them. It's more or less irrelevant to my fandom.

I was born in 1982, and I have vague memories of the Dodgers win in 1988. So, in my lifetime, the Giants have three titles and the Dodgers have one. For me, that is all that's relevant. If you're older, by my logic, you could add one more (1981) and up to four more (50s and 60s) depending how old you are. What doesn't make sense to me is it appears you are cutting things off at the move West, and wouldn't count 1955 for Brooklyn, and thereby cut off five more Giants titles. If you're going to count titles you can't remember, where they played shouldn't matter. It's the same franchise. Either way, as I said, I don't have memories of those wins so they don't mean much to me. But if you're going to count titles you can't remember, the Giants have 8 titles, the Dodgers 6. Or, for me, the Giants lead 3 to 1.

Dodgers fans don't have the inferiority complex of giants fans. My dad roots for California teams. I root against the giants but don't care all that much about their success or failure. Bay area folks have this weird hatred and pseudo jealousy of L. A.

OneKeg said:

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I have a feeling that if the Dodgers had been the ones with 3 world championships this decade and the Giants the ones with the division wins (and 1 pennant in 2017) - in that reverse scenario, many Dodger fans would be playing up their 3 championships and scoffing at the Giants' division wins. Maybe TSF wouldn't, but I'm pretty sure most would since that is along the lines of how I noticed most Dodger fans acting before the Giants won their 2010 championship. The most important topic when it came to the Giants was the lack of recent championships to Dodger fans until 2010. After that, it suddenly wasn't.

But in that reverse scenario where the Dodgers had the recent championships and the Giants the recent division wins, maybe Giants fans would be the ones propping themselves up on their division wins and acting like they are in any way comparable to 3 recent world championships. Who knows. Sports fan psychology is funny.

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This is basically correct. Before 2010 I never heard the end of it from Dodger fans (and A's fans, if you want to know the truth) about how the Giants had never won a championship in S.F.

Now that the Giants have definitively put an end to that argument, we hear about the Dodgers' recent domination in the division and the Giants having had one awful season in 2017. That's the rivalry for you.

EDIT: Oh, and I also see that oski003 has also provided the usual Dodger fan corollary argument, which is that L.A. fans don't really care about the rivalry and it's all just an inferiority complex coming from S.F. fans. Thanks for that, oski003.

oski003 said:

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Dodgers fans don't have the inferiority complex of giants fans. My dad roots for California teams. I root against the giants but don't care all that much about their success or failure. Bay area folks have this weird hatred and pseudo jealousy of L. A.

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I hate it when people try to diminish the rivalry to fit their agenda. Stop. Dodgers fans hate the Giants just as much as the other way around. Period.

haha thats' funny because he made a post on a Cal board to tell us how much he doesn't care about the Giants.

oski003 said:

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Dodgers fans don't have the inferiority complex of giants fans. My dad roots for California teams. I root against the giants but don't care all that much about their success or failure. Bay area folks have this weird hatred and pseudo jealousy of L. A.

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Noblesse oblige horse**** belongs on the Furd board

hey, they steal our H2O but we get in return cheerleaders, surf punks, Charles Bukowski, call it a wash

sycasey said:

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OneKeg said:

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I have a feeling that if the Dodgers had been the ones with 3 world championships this decade and the Giants the ones with the division wins (and 1 pennant in 2017) - in that reverse scenario, many Dodger fans would be playing up their 3 championships and scoffing at the Giants' division wins. Maybe TSF wouldn't, but I'm pretty sure most would since that is along the lines of how I noticed most Dodger fans acting before the Giants won their 2010 championship. The most important topic when it came to the Giants was the lack of recent championships to Dodger fans until 2010. After that, it suddenly wasn't.

But in that reverse scenario where the Dodgers had the recent championships and the Giants the recent division wins, maybe Giants fans would be the ones propping themselves up on their division wins and acting like they are in any way comparable to 3 recent world championships. Who knows. Sports fan psychology is funny.

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This is basically correct. Before 2010 I never heard the end of it from Dodger fans (and A's fans, if you want to know the truth) about how the Giants had never won a championship in S.F.

Now that the Giants have definitively put an end to that argument, we hear about the Dodgers' recent domination in the division and the Giants having had one awful season in 2017. That's the rivalry for you.

EDIT: Oh, and I also see that oski003 has also provided the usual Dodger fan corollary argument, which is that L.A. fans don't really care about the rivalry and it's all just an inferiority complex coming from S.F. fans. Thanks for that, oski003.

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Actually oski003 does have a point. This thread is over 3k posts and you're gloating over a championship the Dodgers didn't win but in a season where your own team didn't make the playoffs.

Sy, your signature needs to be a picture of McKayla Maroney doing her "not impressed" face.

philly1121 said:

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sycasey said:

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OneKeg said:

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I have a feeling that if the Dodgers had been the ones with 3 world championships this decade and the Giants the ones with the division wins (and 1 pennant in 2017) - in that reverse scenario, many Dodger fans would be playing up their 3 championships and scoffing at the Giants' division wins. Maybe TSF wouldn't, but I'm pretty sure most would since that is along the lines of how I noticed most Dodger fans acting before the Giants won their 2010 championship. The most important topic when it came to the Giants was the lack of recent championships to Dodger fans until 2010. After that, it suddenly wasn't.

But in that reverse scenario where the Dodgers had the recent championships and the Giants the recent division wins, maybe Giants fans would be the ones propping themselves up on their division wins and acting like they are in any way comparable to 3 recent world championships. Who knows. Sports fan psychology is funny.

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This is basically correct. Before 2010 I never heard the end of it from Dodger fans (and A's fans, if you want to know the truth) about how the Giants had never won a championship in S.F.

Now that the Giants have definitively put an end to that argument, we hear about the Dodgers' recent domination in the division and the Giants having had one awful season in 2017. That's the rivalry for you.

EDIT: Oh, and I also see that oski003 has also provided the usual Dodger fan corollary argument, which is that L.A. fans don't really care about the rivalry and it's all just an inferiority complex coming from S.F. fans. Thanks for that, oski003.

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Actually oski003 does have a point. This thread is over 3k posts and you're gloating over a championship the Dodgers didn't win but in a season where your own team didn't make the playoffs.

Sy, your signature needs to be a picture of McKayla Maroney doing her "not impressed" face.

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However, one might suggest that it was the Dodgers fans who kept the thread alive. Had they simply ignored the initial post five years ago, it would have died and been forgotten by Christmas of that year.

Suffice to say, the rivalry is well over 100 years old and is every bit as fierce as it was back then. One of favorite baseball quotes of all time:

"Is Brooklyn still in the league?" - Bill Terry, NY Giants manager. Yes, his comment ultimately backfired on him but that is the beauty of the rivalry. It is one that fires the imagination and passion of all true baseball fans.

NYCGOBEARS said:

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oski003 said:

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Dodgers fans don't have the inferiority complex of giants fans. My dad roots for California teams. I root against the giants but don't care all that much about their success or failure. Bay area folks have this weird hatred and pseudo jealousy of L. A.

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I hate it when people try to diminish the rivalry to fit their agenda. Stop. Dodgers fans hate the Giants just as much as the other way around. Period.

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I have to be honest nyc, I could give a **** about the Lakers anymore. Heehee

OneKeg said:

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I have a feeling that if the Dodgers had been the ones with 3 world championships this decade and the Giants the ones with the division wins (and 1 pennant in 2017) - in that reverse scenario, many Dodger fans would be playing up their 3 championships and scoffing at the Giants' division wins. Maybe TSF wouldn't, but I'm pretty sure most would since that is along the lines of how I noticed most Dodger fans acting before the Giants won their 2010 championship. The most important topic when it came to the Giants was the lack of recent championships to Dodger fans until 2010. After that, it suddenly wasn't.

But in that reverse scenario where the Dodgers had the recent championships and the Giants the recent division wins, maybe Giants fans would be the ones propping themselves up on their division wins and acting like they are in any way comparable to 3 recent world championships. Who knows. Sports fan psychology is funny.

I don't have a horse in the race. I do know that it was a great series, despite the final game.

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I don't brag about Braun's NIT championship or even Tedford's Pac-10 co-championship. Division champ is slightly above participation trophy in the pecking order.

71Bear said:

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However, one might suggest that it was the Dodgers fans who kept the thread alive. Had they simply ignored the initial post five years ago, it would have died and been forgotten by Christmas of that year.

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Dodger fans were literally updating this thread every day during their long winning streaks this season. Yet apparently it's only Giants fans who care about the rivalry and have an inferiority complex. No one is buying that act.

LethalFang said:

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OneKeg said:

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I have a feeling that if the Dodgers had been the ones with 3 world championships this decade and the Giants the ones with the division wins (and 1 pennant in 2017) - in that reverse scenario, many Dodger fans would be playing up their 3 championships and scoffing at the Giants' division wins. Maybe TSF wouldn't, but I'm pretty sure most would since that is along the lines of how I noticed most Dodger fans acting before the Giants won their 2010 championship. The most important topic when it came to the Giants was the lack of recent championships to Dodger fans until 2010. After that, it suddenly wasn't.

But in that reverse scenario where the Dodgers had the recent championships and the Giants the recent division wins, maybe Giants fans would be the ones propping themselves up on their division wins and acting like they are in any way comparable to 3 recent world championships. Who knows. Sports fan psychology is funny.

I don't have a horse in the race. I do know that it was a great series, despite the final game.

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I don't brag about Braun's NIT championship or even Tedford's Pac-10 co-championship. Division champ is slightly above participation trophy in the pecking order.

I'll brag if we ever win a Pac12 championship though. It's out there...somewhere...over the rainbow...where bluebirds sing...somewhere...

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LethalFang said:

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OneKeg said:

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I have a feeling that if the Dodgers had been the ones with 3 world championships this decade and the Giants the ones with the division wins (and 1 pennant in 2017) - in that reverse scenario, many Dodger fans would be playing up their 3 championships and scoffing at the Giants' division wins. Maybe TSF wouldn't, but I'm pretty sure most would since that is along the lines of how I noticed most Dodger fans acting before the Giants won their 2010 championship. The most important topic when it came to the Giants was the lack of recent championships to Dodger fans until 2010. After that, it suddenly wasn't.

But in that reverse scenario where the Dodgers had the recent championships and the Giants the recent division wins, maybe Giants fans would be the ones propping themselves up on their division wins and acting like they are in any way comparable to 3 recent world championships. Who knows. Sports fan psychology is funny.

I don't have a horse in the race. I do know that it was a great series, despite the final game.

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I don't brag about Braun's NIT championship or even Tedford's Pac-10 co-championship. Division champ is slightly above participation trophy in the pecking order.

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Where does the "2017 Worst Record in Baseball Championship" trophy rate in your hierarchy?

LethalFang said:

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OneKeg said:

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I have a feeling that if the Dodgers had been the ones with 3 world championships this decade and the Giants the ones with the division wins (and 1 pennant in 2017) - in that reverse scenario, many Dodger fans would be playing up their 3 championships and scoffing at the Giants' division wins. Maybe TSF wouldn't, but I'm pretty sure most would since that is along the lines of how I noticed most Dodger fans acting before the Giants won their 2010 championship. The most important topic when it came to the Giants was the lack of recent championships to Dodger fans until 2010. After that, it suddenly wasn't.

But in that reverse scenario where the Dodgers had the recent championships and the Giants the recent division wins, maybe Giants fans would be the ones propping themselves up on their division wins and acting like they are in any way comparable to 3 recent world championships. Who knows. Sports fan psychology is funny.

I don't have a horse in the race. I do know that it was a great series, despite the final game.

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I don't brag about Braun's NIT championship or even Tedford's Pac-10 co-championship. Division champ is slightly above participation trophy in the pecking order.

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Kinda like a 6 win Cal team "earning" a bowl game, right? That to me IS participation trophy status.

After being the guy who chastised others for putting so much of our personal happiness and unhappiness on the line with sporting events...I had to stay out of this thread for a couple of days because I've been pretty unhappy.

As a preliminary matter, Giants fans are rightfully happy. We'd feel the same way if they choked away a WS title.

I generally agree with KAM and others in the preceding pages. We had this one and choked. Roberts made some questionable decisions and they didn't work. The bullpen was overused and bad. Darvish freaking sucked. They blew games 2 and 5. They stupidly talked **** about how they couldn't lose game 7 if they won game 6. This one hurts. I mean, Jansen blew a save in game 2 and Kershaw had the big hand in blowing TWO 3 run leads in game 5. ***?

The Astros knew Darvish and had good success against him not just in this series. For a team that is obsessed with analytics it was a bizarre decision. On the other side Hinch completely ignored his "real" bullpen and gave the ball to starting pitchers in the relief role, rode them hard and they came through.

Anarchistbear said:

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The Astros knew Darvish and had good success against him not just in this series. For a team that is obsessed with analytics it was a bizarre decision. On the other side Hinch completely ignored his "real" bullpen and gave the ball to starting pitchers in the relief role, rode them hard and they came through.

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Stanfurd>Fucla

Anarchistbear said:

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The Astros knew Darvish and had good success against him not just in this series. For a team that is obsessed with analytics it was a bizarre decision. On the other side Hinch completely ignored his "real" bullpen and gave the ball to starting pitchers in the relief role, rode them hard and they came through.

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Before the WS: Yu Darvish is 5-5 with a 3.44 ERA in 14 career starts against the Astros and he is 4-1 with a 2.16 ERA in six career starts at Minute Maid Park. He has allowed just one earned run over 14 innings since 2016 at The Juice Box.

tequila4kapp said:

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After being the guy who chastised others for putting so much of our personal happiness and unhappiness on the line with sporting events...I had to stay out of this thread for a couple of days because I've been pretty unhappy.

As a preliminary matter, Giants fans are rightfully happy. We'd feel the same way if they choked away a WS title.

I generally agree with KAM and others in the preceding pages. We had this one and choked. Roberts made some questionable decisions and they didn't work. The bullpen was overused and bad. Darvish freaking sucked. They blew games 2 and 5. They stupidly talked **** about how they couldn't lose game 7 if they won game 6. This one hurts. I mean, Jansen blew a save in game 2 and Kershaw had the big hand in blowing TWO 3 run leads in game 5. ***?

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This is honest and correct.

TheSouseFamily said:

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LethalFang said:

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OneKeg said:

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BI have a feeling that if the Dodgers had been the ones with 3 world championships this decade and the Giants the ones with the division wins (and 1 pennant in 2017) - in that reverse scenario, many Dodger fans would be playing up their 3 championships and scoffing at the Giants' division wins. Maybe TSF wouldn't, but I'm pretty sure most would since that is along the lines of how I noticed most Dodger fans acting before the Giants won their 2010 championship. The most important topic when it came to the Giants was the lack of recent championships to Dodger fans until 2010. After that, it suddenly wasn't.

But in that reverse scenario where the Dodgers had the recent championships and the Giants the recent division wins, maybe Giants fans would be the ones propping themselves up on their division wins and acting like they are in any way comparable to 3 recent world championships. Who knows. Sports fan psychology is funny.

I don't have a horse in the race. I do know that it was a great series, despite the final game.

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I don't brag about Braun's NIT championship or even Tedford's Pac-10 co-championship. Division champ is slightly above participation trophy in the pecking order.

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Where does the "2017 Worst Record in Baseball Championship" trophy rate in your hierarchy?

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Two thoughts...

1. Detroit has the first pick in the draft next year. I think that means they had the worst record.
2. More importantly, let's assume that S.F. did have the worst record. If that were the case, I suspect the trophy to which you alluded would find itself on a shelf next to the three that Houston earned earlier this decade.

World Series wins: Houston 1 LA 0. Who cares whether you finish second or last?

In essence, if I had to choose, I would prefer that the teams I root for finish first and last in consecutive years than second both years.