So, back to my point. Your assertion that a "few" Giants used HGH is untrue. Only one guy did so...oski003 said:
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/8271981/melky-cabrera-san-francisco-giants-suspended-50-games
I guess Cabrera was using other steroids, not HGH!
Hey Dodgers Fans
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From Pantone 294, the massive fan organization that you can hear (loudly) at every road game. But, at the risk of getting pwn'd again by sycasey, I'd stipulate that I'm sure there are some members who disagree with the official position.
It's like saying "everyone thought Paul Blart: Mall Cop 2 sucked". When, of course, there are probably a few people who enjoyed it.
It's like saying "everyone thought Paul Blart: Mall Cop 2 sucked". When, of course, there are probably a few people who enjoyed it.
71Bear said:So, back to my point. Your assertion that a "few" Giants used HGH is untrue. Only one guy did so...oski003 said:
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/8271981/melky-cabrera-san-francisco-giants-suspended-50-games
I guess Cabrera was using other steroids, not HGH!
Edited to "HGH or Steroids." Thank you for your hard work; it gave me a chuckle.
But this wasn't unwritten. The commissioner sent a memo explicitly saying use of electronics was forbidden for stealing signed, etc.Beardog26 said:
I agree with that, there should be a fairly large punishment heaped on the Astros (and probably also the Red Sox). However, the LA City Council is crazy to petition for the 2017 and 2018 WS titles to be retroactively awarded to the Dodgers. They didn't earn such titles, and shouldn't be given them.
Same as Reggie Bush having his Heisman trophy subsequently taken away. Doesn't mean the second place finisher should be retroactively awarded the trophy for that year.
The whole mess stinks. They have so-called "unwritten rules" not to steal a base, or swing on 3-0 counts, when up by however many runs, or to avoid bat-flips after home runs, but hey, let's use modern technology to steal the other team's signs and communicate that to teammates during in-game at-bats. Gives baseball a black eye, IMO.
Dodger fan here. I am pissed about this. Astros got a slap on the wrist. They should have been stripped of the title. Dodgers should not be given the WS title. That's silly, IMO.
I wasn't trying to conflate the two. I freely acknowledge the distinction you have made, and was only pointing out the hypocrisy of all of baseball's sanctimonious "unwritten rules" when many of the players, managers and such seem given to violating some of the most written-in-stone rules.
Like you, I think it is silly to even consider retroactively granting the-runner up a World Series title. Like someone else in this thread mentioned, it could just as easily be given to the American League teams the Astros (2017) and Red Sox (2018) beat in the playoffs. I think we're on the same page.
Like you, I think it is silly to even consider retroactively granting the-runner up a World Series title. Like someone else in this thread mentioned, it could just as easily be given to the American League teams the Astros (2017) and Red Sox (2018) beat in the playoffs. I think we're on the same page.
For those of you following the sign stealing scandal, this guy (Astros fan) had a lot of time on his hands and went to work reviewing old film from 2017 onward and counted every trash can bang for, I believe, an off speed pitch. More than a thousand of them. He also broke them down for individual players. Very interesting.
okaydo said:
Hmm. Not sure what the Red Sox are thinking here. I guess they figure he won't stay. However, they don't get much back in return. Verdugo is a nice, young player for cheap but I would have hoped for more than that. As for the Dodgers, do they plan to win every game 10-8? It was their pitching that did them in and now they have lost Ryu and Maeda. They get back Price but... meh.
They improved their bullpen. Gonsolin and May are good young pitchers. Smith and Lux are everyday players. Dodgers Now have arguably the best outfield in baseball. And Price has a good record in the playoffs.
Good day to be a Dodger fan.
Good day to be a Dodger fan.
Preliminary congratulations to the Dodgers on their 2020 championship.
Salary dump...dimitrig said:okaydo said:
Hmm. Not sure what the Red Sox are thinking here. I guess they figure he won't stay. However, they don't get much back in return. Verdugo is a nice, young player for cheap but I would have hoped for more than that. As for the Dodgers, do they plan to win every game 10-8? It was their pitching that did them in and now they have lost Ryu and Maeda. They get back Price but... meh.
The Sox needed to get under the Competitive Balance limit. They figured that Betts would leave as a free agent after the 2020 season and Price was a financial millstone. OTOH, LA swims in cash so they figured, why not, what have we got to lose, it's only money.
The issue for LA is whether this helps them win the World Series - no one cares about the regular season, it is a fait accompli that LA will win another divisional title but we knew that before the trade. The question for Dodger fans - does this trade help win a seven game NLCS series and a seven game World Series? After all, it is all about pitching in the post season........
No one cares about the regular season? Apparently you've never played baseball. Tell that to the millions of baseball fans who attend games every week. Perhaps you would care to amend that statement?71Bear said:Salary dump...dimitrig said:okaydo said:
Hmm. Not sure what the Red Sox are thinking here. I guess they figure he won't stay. However, they don't get much back in return. Verdugo is a nice, young player for cheap but I would have hoped for more than that. As for the Dodgers, do they plan to win every game 10-8? It was their pitching that did them in and now they have lost Ryu and Maeda. They get back Price but... meh.
The Sox needed to get under the Competitive Balance limit. They figured that Betts would leave as a free agent after the 2020 season and Price was a financial millstone. OTOH, LA swims in cash so they figured, why not, what have we got to lose, it's only money.
The issue for LA is whether this helps them win the World Series - no one cares about the regular season, it is a fait accompli that LA will win another divisional title but we knew that before the trade. The question for Dodger fans - does this trade help win a seven game NLCS series and a seven game World Series? After all, it is all about pitching in the post season........
"The Red Sox and Dodgers have agreed to a blockbuster deal that will send former MVP Mookie Betts and veteran (and extremely expensive) starter David Price to Los Angeles for a package that includes promising young outfielder Alex Verdugo, ESPN's Jeff Passan reports.
The trade also includes the Twins, who will send pitching prospect Brusdar Graterol to the Red Sox and, in turn, receive starter Kenta Maeda from the Dodgers.
By the numbers: Since the start of the 2016 season, Betts' 33.8 WAR (wins above replacement) is second to only Mike Trout's 35.5, and he leads all players with 98 defensive runs saved 13 more than second-place Andrelton Simmons.
Why it matters: This move instantly makes the Dodgers super contenders and puts arguably the two best players in the world in the same market. It also serves as a stark reminder that the baseball world is increasingly dictated by teams' desire to stay under the luxury tax threshold.
How it works: Each season, clubs that exceed a predetermined threshold ($206 million last year, $208 million this year) must pay a "luxury tax" on each dollar spent above that threshold, and repeat "offenders" see their tax rates increase exponentially.
As three-time offenders, Boston was looking at an aggressive tax rate, so they traded away the epitome of a franchise player to avoid paying it.
The Yankees and Dodgers have hit the reset tax button themselves in recent years, paving the way for them to sign the two best players to change teams this offseason: Gerrit Cole and now Betts.
The bottom line: The Dodgers are making a win-now gamble and hoping it leads to a World Series breakthrough, while the Red Sox the ******* Boston Red Sox just dumped the best position player they've had in 50 years to save some money.
P.S. ... Shortly after acquiring, Betts the Dodgers sent outfielder Joc Pederson to the Angels for infielder Luis Rengifo." Axios
The trade also includes the Twins, who will send pitching prospect Brusdar Graterol to the Red Sox and, in turn, receive starter Kenta Maeda from the Dodgers.
By the numbers: Since the start of the 2016 season, Betts' 33.8 WAR (wins above replacement) is second to only Mike Trout's 35.5, and he leads all players with 98 defensive runs saved 13 more than second-place Andrelton Simmons.
Why it matters: This move instantly makes the Dodgers super contenders and puts arguably the two best players in the world in the same market. It also serves as a stark reminder that the baseball world is increasingly dictated by teams' desire to stay under the luxury tax threshold.
How it works: Each season, clubs that exceed a predetermined threshold ($206 million last year, $208 million this year) must pay a "luxury tax" on each dollar spent above that threshold, and repeat "offenders" see their tax rates increase exponentially.
As three-time offenders, Boston was looking at an aggressive tax rate, so they traded away the epitome of a franchise player to avoid paying it.
The Yankees and Dodgers have hit the reset tax button themselves in recent years, paving the way for them to sign the two best players to change teams this offseason: Gerrit Cole and now Betts.
The bottom line: The Dodgers are making a win-now gamble and hoping it leads to a World Series breakthrough, while the Red Sox the ******* Boston Red Sox just dumped the best position player they've had in 50 years to save some money.
P.S. ... Shortly after acquiring, Betts the Dodgers sent outfielder Joc Pederson to the Angels for infielder Luis Rengifo." Axios
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough...bonsallbear said:No one cares about the regular season? Apparently you've never played baseball. Tell that to the millions of baseball fans who attend games every week. Perhaps you would care to amend that statement?71Bear said:Salary dump...dimitrig said:okaydo said:
Hmm. Not sure what the Red Sox are thinking here. I guess they figure he won't stay. However, they don't get much back in return. Verdugo is a nice, young player for cheap but I would have hoped for more than that. As for the Dodgers, do they plan to win every game 10-8? It was their pitching that did them in and now they have lost Ryu and Maeda. They get back Price but... meh.
The Sox needed to get under the Competitive Balance limit. They figured that Betts would leave as a free agent after the 2020 season and Price was a financial millstone. OTOH, LA swims in cash so they figured, why not, what have we got to lose, it's only money.
The issue for LA is whether this helps them win the World Series - no one cares about the regular season, it is a fait accompli that LA will win another divisional title but we knew that before the trade. The question for Dodger fans - does this trade help win a seven game NLCS series and a seven game World Series? After all, it is all about pitching in the post season........
After seven divisional and zero World Series titles, the Dodgers don't care about the regular season and divisional championships. They are all in on winning the World Series. That is what made this deal palatable to their leadership.
Not trying to be obtuse, but what makes you think they don't care about the regular season and divisional Championships. I believe the Yankees,Red Sox,Astros, and even the Giants care about those things as well.71Bear said:Perhaps I wasn't clear enough...bonsallbear said:No one cares about the regular season? Apparently you've never played baseball. Tell that to the millions of baseball fans who attend games every week. Perhaps you would care to amend that statement?71Bear said:Salary dump...dimitrig said:okaydo said:
Hmm. Not sure what the Red Sox are thinking here. I guess they figure he won't stay. However, they don't get much back in return. Verdugo is a nice, young player for cheap but I would have hoped for more than that. As for the Dodgers, do they plan to win every game 10-8? It was their pitching that did them in and now they have lost Ryu and Maeda. They get back Price but... meh.
The Sox needed to get under the Competitive Balance limit. They figured that Betts would leave as a free agent after the 2020 season and Price was a financial millstone. OTOH, LA swims in cash so they figured, why not, what have we got to lose, it's only money.
The issue for LA is whether this helps them win the World Series - no one cares about the regular season, it is a fait accompli that LA will win another divisional title but we knew that before the trade. The question for Dodger fans - does this trade help win a seven game NLCS series and a seven game World Series? After all, it is all about pitching in the post season........
After seven divisional and zero World Series titles, the Dodgers don't care about the regular season and divisional championships. They are all in on winning the World Series. That is what made this deal palatable to their leadership.
I think he was clear enough in the original post to which you objected -- "no one cares about the regular season, it is a fait accompli that LA will win another divisional title but we knew that before the trade."bonsallbear said:Not trying to be obtuse, but what makes you think they don't care about the regular season and divisional Championships. I believe the Yankees,Red Sox,Astros, and even the Giants care about those things as well.71Bear said:Perhaps I wasn't clear enough...bonsallbear said:No one cares about the regular season? Apparently you've never played baseball. Tell that to the millions of baseball fans who attend games every week. Perhaps you would care to amend that statement?71Bear said:Salary dump...dimitrig said:okaydo said:
Hmm. Not sure what the Red Sox are thinking here. I guess they figure he won't stay. However, they don't get much back in return. Verdugo is a nice, young player for cheap but I would have hoped for more than that. As for the Dodgers, do they plan to win every game 10-8? It was their pitching that did them in and now they have lost Ryu and Maeda. They get back Price but... meh.
The Sox needed to get under the Competitive Balance limit. They figured that Betts would leave as a free agent after the 2020 season and Price was a financial millstone. OTOH, LA swims in cash so they figured, why not, what have we got to lose, it's only money.
The issue for LA is whether this helps them win the World Series - no one cares about the regular season, it is a fait accompli that LA will win another divisional title but we knew that before the trade. The question for Dodger fans - does this trade help win a seven game NLCS series and a seven game World Series? After all, it is all about pitching in the post season........
After seven divisional and zero World Series titles, the Dodgers don't care about the regular season and divisional championships. They are all in on winning the World Series. That is what made this deal palatable to their leadership.
Yep, they DON'T care about the regular season, because the division title is a fait accompli. If it weren't a done deal in their minds, YES, they would care, but BECAUSE they believe a division title is guaranteed, they don't care about it when making a deal, they only care about how it affects post-season. Is that clear enough?
Taken in total, the trades arebearister said:
"The Red Sox and Dodgers have agreed to a blockbuster deal that will send former MVP Mookie Betts and veteran (and extremely expensive) starter David Price to Los Angeles for a package that includes promising young outfielder Alex Verdugo, ESPN's Jeff Passan reports.
The trade also includes the Twins, who will send pitching prospect Brusdar Graterol to the Red Sox and, in turn, receive starter Kenta Maeda from the Dodgers.
By the numbers: Since the start of the 2016 season, Betts' 33.8 WAR (wins above replacement) is second to only Mike Trout's 35.5, and he leads all players with 98 defensive runs saved 13 more than second-place Andrelton Simmons.
Why it matters: This move instantly makes the Dodgers super contenders and puts arguably the two best players in the world in the same market. It also serves as a stark reminder that the baseball world is increasingly dictated by teams' desire to stay under the luxury tax threshold.
How it works: Each season, clubs that exceed a predetermined threshold ($206 million last year, $208 million this year) must pay a "luxury tax" on each dollar spent above that threshold, and repeat "offenders" see their tax rates increase exponentially.
As three-time offenders, Boston was looking at an aggressive tax rate, so they traded away the epitome of a franchise player to avoid paying it.
The Yankees and Dodgers have hit the reset tax button themselves in recent years, paving the way for them to sign the two best players to change teams this offseason: Gerrit Cole and now Betts.
The bottom line: The Dodgers are making a win-now gamble and hoping it leads to a World Series breakthrough, while the Red Sox the ******* Boston Red Sox just dumped the best position player they've had in 50 years to save some money.
P.S. ... Shortly after acquiring, Betts the Dodgers sent outfielder Joc Pederson to the Angels for infielder Luis Rengifo." Axios
IN - Betts, Price, Angels rookie 2b/ss and a prospect
OUT - Verdugo, Maeda, Pederson (37 HRs), Stripling, an OF prospect
Even accounting for how great Betts is I'm not sure they are actually better after the trade than they were before the trade.
Is it your presumption that ownership,management does not care about the game,the fans,and the product they put on the field? A divisional Championship is a step below the WS. Is it not to be proud of? Would the Giants be proud of that? If that is your point of view,then it is clear. I have played baseball and coached it for many years and I find pride in all titles big or small. Is that clear to you? I believe all dodger fans from ownership to fans care.Cal8285 said:I think he was clear enough in the original post to which you objected -- "no one cares about the regular season, it is a fait accompli that LA will win another divisional title but we knew that before the trade."bonsallbear said:Not trying to be obtuse, but what makes you think they don't care about the regular season and divisional Championships. I believe the Yankees,Red Sox,Astros, and even the Giants care about those things as well.71Bear said:Perhaps I wasn't clear enough...bonsallbear said:No one cares about the regular season? Apparently you've never played baseball. Tell that to the millions of baseball fans who attend games every week. Perhaps you would care to amend that statement?71Bear said:Salary dump...dimitrig said:okaydo said:
Hmm. Not sure what the Red Sox are thinking here. I guess they figure he won't stay. However, they don't get much back in return. Verdugo is a nice, young player for cheap but I would have hoped for more than that. As for the Dodgers, do they plan to win every game 10-8? It was their pitching that did them in and now they have lost Ryu and Maeda. They get back Price but... meh.
The Sox needed to get under the Competitive Balance limit. They figured that Betts would leave as a free agent after the 2020 season and Price was a financial millstone. OTOH, LA swims in cash so they figured, why not, what have we got to lose, it's only money.
The issue for LA is whether this helps them win the World Series - no one cares about the regular season, it is a fait accompli that LA will win another divisional title but we knew that before the trade. The question for Dodger fans - does this trade help win a seven game NLCS series and a seven game World Series? After all, it is all about pitching in the post season........
After seven divisional and zero World Series titles, the Dodgers don't care about the regular season and divisional championships. They are all in on winning the World Series. That is what made this deal palatable to their leadership.
Yep, they DON'T care about the regular season, because the division title is a fait accompli. If it weren't a done deal in their minds, YES, they would care, but BECAUSE they believe a division title is guaranteed, they don't care about it when making a deal, they only care about how it affects post-season. Is that clear enough?
Souse,TheSouseFamily said:
For those of you following the sign stealing scandal, this guy (Astros fan) had a lot of time on his hands and went to work reviewing old film from 2017 onward and counted every trash can bang for, I believe, an off speed pitch. More than a thousand of them. He also broke them down for individual players. Very interesting.
I believe to better understand Astro Fan's data, folks should note that the trash cans were only banged when a pitch other than a fastball was coming.
So, no bang meant look for heat. Therefore, the actual number of "tipped" pitches is far greater than 1,100. In 2017 55% of pitches were fastballs, so potentially 5,610 (.55X8,200)+1,100) pitches were tipped.
Hitting a 98 mph ball is damn difficult, but for an MLB hitter, especially the caliber of the Houston guys, knowing it's not an off-speed pitch is a huge advantage.
Plus they lost Ryu and Hill to free agency. So far the Dodgers seem weaker than last season.tequila4kapp said:Taken in total, the trades arebearister said:
"The Red Sox and Dodgers have agreed to a blockbuster deal that will send former MVP Mookie Betts and veteran (and extremely expensive) starter David Price to Los Angeles for a package that includes promising young outfielder Alex Verdugo, ESPN's Jeff Passan reports.
The trade also includes the Twins, who will send pitching prospect Brusdar Graterol to the Red Sox and, in turn, receive starter Kenta Maeda from the Dodgers.
By the numbers: Since the start of the 2016 season, Betts' 33.8 WAR (wins above replacement) is second to only Mike Trout's 35.5, and he leads all players with 98 defensive runs saved 13 more than second-place Andrelton Simmons.
Why it matters: This move instantly makes the Dodgers super contenders and puts arguably the two best players in the world in the same market. It also serves as a stark reminder that the baseball world is increasingly dictated by teams' desire to stay under the luxury tax threshold.
How it works: Each season, clubs that exceed a predetermined threshold ($206 million last year, $208 million this year) must pay a "luxury tax" on each dollar spent above that threshold, and repeat "offenders" see their tax rates increase exponentially.
As three-time offenders, Boston was looking at an aggressive tax rate, so they traded away the epitome of a franchise player to avoid paying it.
The Yankees and Dodgers have hit the reset tax button themselves in recent years, paving the way for them to sign the two best players to change teams this offseason: Gerrit Cole and now Betts.
The bottom line: The Dodgers are making a win-now gamble and hoping it leads to a World Series breakthrough, while the Red Sox the ******* Boston Red Sox just dumped the best position player they've had in 50 years to save some money.
P.S. ... Shortly after acquiring, Betts the Dodgers sent outfielder Joc Pederson to the Angels for infielder Luis Rengifo." Axios
IN - Betts, Price, Angels rookie 2b/ss and a prospect
OUT - Verdugo, Maeda, Pederson (37 HRs), Stripling, an OF prospect
Even accounting for how great Betts is I'm not sure they are actually better after the trade than they were before the trade.
Betts is a "top 5 MLB player" and the Dodgers gave up zero in terms of their top prospects. Even if they only get Mookie for one year, that's an OK scenario for the all-in 2020 Dodgers.tequila4kapp said:
Even accounting for how great Betts is I'm not sure they are actually better after the trade than they were before the trade.
The key to the trade may well be how David Price works out. The former 2012 Cy Young winner played a major role in Boston's 2018 World Series championship over the Dodgers, winning games two and game five (the clincher). Price may not be the pitcher he was in 2012, but why not 2018? In the NL, as long as they do not have the designated hitter, Price will really be facing 6-7 primary batting threats versus 9 in the AL. And moving away from the AL East where he has spent most of his career, should be a godsend in terms of hitter recognition.
So in my mind, the Dodgers are an improved squad with Mookie, but if Price returns to form, he could be a difference maker in October.
You still don't understand, even if you are trying not to be obtuse. The only reason the Dodgers "don't care" about the division is that it is a foregone conclusion. Sure, at some level, there is pride in winning a division championship, but the pride is quite minimal at some point.bonsallbear said:Is it your presumption that ownership,management does not care about the game,the fans,and the product they put on the field? A divisional Championship is a step below the WS. Is it not to be proud of? Would the Giants be proud of that? If that is your point of view,then it is clear. I have played baseball and coached it for many years and I find pride in all titles big or small. Is that clear to you? I believe all dodger fans from ownership to fans care.Cal8285 said:I think he was clear enough in the original post to which you objected -- "no one cares about the regular season, it is a fait accompli that LA will win another divisional title but we knew that before the trade."bonsallbear said:Not trying to be obtuse, but what makes you think they don't care about the regular season and divisional Championships. I believe the Yankees,Red Sox,Astros, and even the Giants care about those things as well.71Bear said:Perhaps I wasn't clear enough...bonsallbear said:No one cares about the regular season? Apparently you've never played baseball. Tell that to the millions of baseball fans who attend games every week. Perhaps you would care to amend that statement?71Bear said:Salary dump...dimitrig said:okaydo said:
Hmm. Not sure what the Red Sox are thinking here. I guess they figure he won't stay. However, they don't get much back in return. Verdugo is a nice, young player for cheap but I would have hoped for more than that. As for the Dodgers, do they plan to win every game 10-8? It was their pitching that did them in and now they have lost Ryu and Maeda. They get back Price but... meh.
The Sox needed to get under the Competitive Balance limit. They figured that Betts would leave as a free agent after the 2020 season and Price was a financial millstone. OTOH, LA swims in cash so they figured, why not, what have we got to lose, it's only money.
The issue for LA is whether this helps them win the World Series - no one cares about the regular season, it is a fait accompli that LA will win another divisional title but we knew that before the trade. The question for Dodger fans - does this trade help win a seven game NLCS series and a seven game World Series? After all, it is all about pitching in the post season........
After seven divisional and zero World Series titles, the Dodgers don't care about the regular season and divisional championships. They are all in on winning the World Series. That is what made this deal palatable to their leadership.
Yep, they DON'T care about the regular season, because the division title is a fait accompli. If it weren't a done deal in their minds, YES, they would care, but BECAUSE they believe a division title is guaranteed, they don't care about it when making a deal, they only care about how it affects post-season. Is that clear enough?
As far as the Dodgers are concerned right now, it will happen in 2020. Period. End of story. Do you dispute that?
Thus, in their decision making in the trade, they cared about one thing. Winning the World Series. They DID NOT CARE about the division, because they ALREADY WERE CERTAIN THEY WOULD WIN IT. What part of that do you not understand? What part of that suggests there is no pride at all in winning a division championship?
You played baseball and coached it for many years and find pride in all titles, big and small. But how often did you win a title year after year after year after year after year after year after year, and then fail to win it all? Braves fans have VERY fixed feelings about the 14 consecutive division titles, because it resulted in only ONE World Series title. Hey, at least they won ONE, but they overall still have a feeling of disappointment about FOURTEEN CONSECUTIVE DIVISION TITLES (in fact, the fans stopped showing up for the NLDS, because they just didn't care anymore). How do those Buffalo Bills fans feel about the 4 Super Bowls in a row? How are Niners fans feeling right now about going from 4-12 to NFC Champs (as a Niners fan, I can tell you, not real good, we should feel better, but it isn't real good). How did Chiefs fans feel last year after their division title and loss in the AFC Championship game? Like they had been hit in the head with a brick AGAIN for the 49th year in a row.
When you fail repeatedly to win it all in spite of winning lesser titles, it gets tired, and in truth, it becomes a lot harder to have pride in that lesser title that it feels you can win, and should win, as easy as falling off a log. Peter Magowan got rid of Dusty Baker in part because, in spite of winning the pennant, Dusty blew the big one. Gee, why wasn't Peter more proud of Dusty winning the pennant? Even if you think the Giants would be proud of the pennant, at that point, uh, not as much as they should have been.
Yeah, the Dodgers are so sure they will win the division that, yes, they don't really care about it. If they fail, it will be DISASTER. If they win, it will be what they are supposed to do in 2020, what they surely will do in 2020. OK, they can be kind of be proud of what they already know they will do. But they cannot make a single move with an eye towards the division, because they already know they will win it. They make moves with an eye towards winning the World Series, period, and when they make moves, that is the ONLY thing they care about.
I'm not so sure I'm buying this narrative that the Dodgers are going "all in" or making some kind of huge "gamble" to win it all in 2020. Sure, that's obviously an objective. But the Betts move is a move that any team would make in a similar situation. They didn't give up anything that can't be replaced by someone else on the 40 man. As far as bold moves go, I don't think it even registers. If they were truly "all in", they'd be utilizing their deep farm system and their five top 100 prospects to get additional pieces.
The Dodgers strategy, as it has been since Friedman came aboard, is a balanced one that takes into account winning now and having a strong foundation and pipeline for the future. And the Betts deal doesn't tip that balance at all.
The Dodgers strategy, as it has been since Friedman came aboard, is a balanced one that takes into account winning now and having a strong foundation and pipeline for the future. And the Betts deal doesn't tip that balance at all.
Feel better now?
Feeling less obtuse now?bonsallbear said:
Feel better now?
From a purely baseball perspective, I think you're right, it isn't going "all in" or making some kind of huge "gamble" to win it all in 2020 at the sacrifice of the future. Your analysis is completely correct. And it is a move that any team would make in a similar situation (assuming it doesn't prevent them from improving pitching), but there IS no other team in a similar situation at this point, no other team has the existing foundation and pipeline for the future to the extent the Dodgers do so that you can say they aren't giving up anything that can't be replaced, because Friedman's balanced strategy has been successful.TheSouseFamily said:
I'm not so sure I'm buying this narrative that the Dodgers are going "all in" or making some kind of huge "gamble" to win it all in 2020. Sure, that's obviously an objective. But the Betts move is a move that any team would make in a similar situation. They didn't give up anything that can't be replaced by someone else on the 40 man. As far as bold moves go, I don't think it even registers. If they were truly "all in", they'd be utilizing their deep farm system and their five top 100 prospects to get additional pieces.
The Dodgers strategy, as it has been since Friedman came aboard, is a balanced one that takes into account winning now and having a strong foundation and pipeline for the future. And the Betts deal doesn't tip that balance at all.
Given the balanced financial strategy, the deal involves giving up other pieces, like trading away Joc Pederson in order to stay under the luxury cap. A big part of the Friedman strategy is to have enough pieces to be able to make a deal like this, and while it likely won't have a BIG impact on the foundation/pipeline for post-2020, it has some minor impact on the pieces they will have to make deals post-2020. Given the Friedman strategy, Betts is likely a one year guy, and he was acquired to improve the chances of winning the World Series in 2020, but there are enough pieces around that it shouldn't matter post-2020.
The bigger narrative is an accurate one, almost all teams are conducting business in a way to stay under the luxury cap. If the Dodgers can do this deal and stay under the cap and the deal gets the Red Sox under the cap, and the deal with improve the Dodgers' 2020 World Series championship chances without any meaningful impact on the future, then absolutely, pull the trigger.
I haven't really been paying attention and I come in peace with this question: what moves have the Giants made this offseason and how are you guys feeling going into next year?
Expectations for 2020 aren't high. The optimistic Giants fans are, however, taking the over for win total on the season. Last I checked, the over-under was 69.5, so the Giants only need to go 70-92 to win that bet!KenBurnski said:
I haven't really been paying attention and I come in peace with this question: what moves have the Giants made this offseason and how are you guys feeling going into next year?
What moves have they made? Many, many tiny moves, designed to make the team more likely to exceed 69.5 wins this year (certainly not designed to win the division) without sacrificing anything for 2021 and beyond. But not many moves worth mentioning for 2020, the biggest one being the recent signing of Wilmer Flores, 2 years $6M, which isn't exactly going to cause anyone to jump for joy when it happens at the same time the Dodgers are getting Betts (although Flores is a Giants killer, so at least the team won't have to face him the next couple of years).
Consistent with the ethos of the Betts and associated transactions, i.e., keep under the luxury tax limit, the biggest salary the Giants took on for 2020 was Zac Cosart, acquired from the Angels in December with $12.67M of salary taken on, and then cut in January to make room on the 40 man roster for a right handed reliever claimed off waivers from the Angels. The Giants had the luxury cap space to do that. The Giants, however, never thought it likely they would keep Cosart, they acquired him in order to get the Angels first round 2019 draft pick (15th overall), a 21 year old SS/2B prospect who won't be MLB ready anywhere near 2020. The Angels wanted the salary savings, the Giants could afford it, so the Angels say bye-bye to the prospect and Cosart and the Giants say hello to the prospect and bye-bye to Cosart and the $12.67M he takes with him.
Zaidi is compiling a TON of pieces, if a decent handful of them pan out, or if they play guys, especially pitchers, for as long as they are hot, the Giants have a strong chance to exceed that 69.5 over-under in 2020, and by 2022 could be looking pretty good. While the Giants have no intention of tanking, they also have no intention of sacrificing anything to be better in 2020. They will sacrifice some 2020 cash, as in the case of Cosart, to be better in 2022 or 2023, but 2020? The Giants will play as many young guys as they can to see if they pan out, and hope they win enough to keep the fans from revolting as they play for the future.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
The Giants are probably targeting being competitive again in 2 or 3 years. It's all rebuild right now.KenBurnski said:
I haven't really been paying attention and I come in peace with this question: what moves have the Giants made this offseason and how are you guys feeling going into next year?
The Giants are at the beginning of a massive rebuild. They're trying to build up their farm system, but they're only in the early stages of that. Right now, they're running out a bunch of cheap replaceable parts hoping they get lucky with a few and otherwise looking several years down the road.KenBurnski said:
I haven't really been paying attention and I come in peace with this question: what moves have the Giants made this offseason and how are you guys feeling going into next year?
Dodgers are the model organization right now. Tons of talent, tons of money, and tons of prospects that they can either promote and play or trade for other pieces. They're going to need a bigger table.
Until they win the World Series, nothing you mentioned matters. Tons of stuff without the ultimate prize is nothing more than tons of stuff.Ted Bear said:The Giants are at the beginning of a massive rebuild. They're trying to build up their farm system, but they're only in the early stages of that. Right now, they're running out a bunch of cheap replaceable parts hoping they get lucky with a few and otherwise looking several years down the road.KenBurnski said:
I haven't really been paying attention and I come in peace with this question: what moves have the Giants made this offseason and how are you guys feeling going into next year?
Dodgers are the model organization right now. Tons of talent, tons of money, and tons of prospects that they can either promote and play or trade for other pieces. They're going to need a bigger table.
TheSouseFamily said:
I'm not so sure I'm buying this narrative that the Dodgers are going "all in" or making some kind of huge "gamble" to win it all in 2020. Sure, that's obviously an objective. But the Betts move is a move that any team would make in a similar situation. They didn't give up anything that can't be replaced by someone else on the 40 man. As far as bold moves go, I don't think it even registers. If they were truly "all in", they'd be utilizing their deep farm system and their five top 100 prospects to get additional pieces.
The Dodgers strategy, as it has been since Friedman came aboard, is a balanced one that takes into account winning now and having a strong foundation and pipeline for the future. And the Betts deal doesn't tip that balance at all.
Generally agree with this. It was a no brainer. I will day this, though: it's going "all in" in the sense that if they don't win this year and Betts signs elsewhere, some fans will very vocally despair about whether the Dodgers will ever win the World Series again, or at least with this regime.
More importantly, if they don't win, Betts walks, and Verdugo blossoms into a very good player (the likelihood of which increases in that park and in that division), then this deal will look very bad. I've seen him play enough to not believe he does blossom to that extent, but it's certainly on the table.
I also do not think that rotation is a strong one. After Buehler, there are a lot of question marks. The real question regarding whether the Dodgers are going all in this year, with Betts, is what they do to their rotation at the trade deadline, and what they are willing to give up in order to improve it, if the rotation is as shaky as I expect it to be.
If they get indications from Betts that he is likely to re-sign, I think they'd be less likely to throw prospects into trades to help the rotation. If I was a Dodger fan, though, my biggest concern here would be that I don't think Friedman is willing to give a player a deal like the one Betts will command, which I expect to be around 10 years for $400M.
We're baaaack! Dodgers in first place and Giants..... Well let's just say they're rebuilding.
GO DODGERS!
GO DODGERS!
Not sure why the Giants took Kapler who was run out of Philly on the first Amtrak out of town. What a disaster of a series for them.bonsallbear said:
We're baaaack! Dodgers in first place and Giants..... Well let's just say they're rebuilding.
GO DODGERS!
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