OT - Selling My Equities

103,325 Views | 675 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by rkt88edmo
GivemTheAxe
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jyamada;842782074 said:

Didn't more jobs disappear with Bush than Obama?


I cannot understand the logic behind this particular argument from an intellectual level. Do you really not understand the impact of the Great Recession on the economy, stocks, tax revenues and JOBS.
Do you really not understand that such a major economic crash would take major government spending to pull out as it did from 1929 to 1942.
And do you forget that after the first stimulus package passed by the Democratic Congress. The Republican Party resisted and blocked all stimulus and job creation efforts by President Obama.

But then again many supporters of the newly elected President live in a fact-free world where there is no evolution, no Global Climate Change, where trickle down economics actually work, where Social Security and Medicare are bad for the people. And unrestricted capitalism is good for the public. And where a country can finance two wars and still cut taxes.
HoopDreams
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good post

cedarbear;842781756 said:

OK, I know more about this than I do about football and basketball...

Trying to time the market, especially in something like a 401K where your time horizon is decades long, is a fool's errand. Markets can go up for much longer than what might appear rational to you. If the market goes up 20% from here and you've switched to cash, what are you going to do? Stick to your guns, you say? What if it goes up another 20% once again after that? At some point, you'll probably admit defeat and jump back in....which might be exactly when the market tanks.

Say you do get it right and the market falls right after you get out. On the downside, people tend to get more bearish at precisely the wrong moment: when there's tons of bad news and stocks have gotten killed. At times like that, staying in cash seems like such a sensible thing to do. But market rebounds are inevitably sudden, sharp--and usually happen when you're still on the sidelines, trying to be sensible by holding cash because the news is so bad.

Even if you get lucky in one cycle, I guarantee you're not going to be able to get it right every time. You'll end up leaving a lot of money on the table because you missed out on market rallies that happened when you thought stocks were too expensive to own. Save yourself the trading commissions--and the stress.

Warren Buffett has it exactly right: buy stock in excellent companies that don't have a ton of debt, do generate a lot of cash, are in businesses where they have a sustainable competitive advantage, and whose stocks are not trading at stupid valuations. And then hold them for many years. If that's too much trouble, buy an S&P 500 index fund and hold it forever. In aggregate, the US economy and US companies will be innovative and adaptable; betting on them over the long, long term is the right thing to do. You can diversify by doing the same thing with a Russell 2000 index fund, since small-caps will likely outperform large-caps over the long-term.
OdontoBear66
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GivemTheAxe;842782237 said:

I cannot understand the logic behind this particular argument from an intellectual level. Do you really not understand the impact of the Great Recession on the economy, stocks, tax revenues and JOBS.
Do you really not understand that such a major economic crash would take major government spending to pull out as it did from 1929 to 1942.
And do you forget that after the first stimulus package passed by the Democratic Congress. The Republican Party resisted and blocked all stimulus and job creation efforts by President Obama.

But then again many supporters of the newly elected President live in a fact-free world where there is no evolution, no Global Climate Change, where trickle down economics actually work, where Social Security and Medicare are bad for the people. And unrestricted capitalism is good for the public. And where a country can finance two wars and still cut taxes.


You are one of the last to chime in, but go back and read the last few pages of this thread. Almost all posters who generally speaking align with your thinking make assumptions about the posters with whom they disagree and they attach "idiocy" to those positions. It is done over and over, so makes it difficult to really retort as you get dragged down in the mud with false assumptions. So let me make some brief responses to what you assume and then I will let it go, for I certainly am not here to try to change anyone's mind and am fully aware that will not happen.

So if you disagree with the general liberal stance it does not mean you don't believe in evolution (I do and always have), that you don't believe in climate change (I do as a general rule and want its truths to be based on strong science--the better the science, the more I agree), Social Security is bad (it is good, but is a retirement program, not a social program to be engineered over time as to its tenets---and its funds were robbed years ago or the power of compounding interest would have it so solvent now there would be no worries), Medicare is an excellent social program. And wow, I also believe in some restrictions on the environment (witness how much better the smog is in LA than it was 20 years ago, but not the BS of the coastal commission gone crazy), and yes, some restrictions on business but not stifling to attempt re distribution of wealth. Now if those stances are idiotic so be it. I think they are moderate. So paint me as you will and then you can feel that edge of superiority in thought. But don't expect me to respond when grossly false assumptions are made about who I am or what I think. Do remember we both graduated from the same school (how could that possibly be, we don't think alike---guess you went to a different Cal than I did). Haha. Well anyway, Merry Christmas--gads I like that.
dajo9
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OdontoBear66;842782245 said:

You are one of the last to chime in, but go back and read the last few pages of this thread. Almost all posters who generally speaking align with your thinking make assumptions about the posters with whom they disagree and they attach "idiocy" to those positions. It is done over and over, so makes it difficult to really retort as you get dragged down in the mud with false assumptions. So let me make some brief responses to what you assume and then I will let it go, for I certainly am not here to try to change anyone's mind and am fully aware that will not happen.

So if you disagree with the general liberal stance it does not mean you don't believe in evolution (I do and always have), that you don't believe in climate change (I do as a general rule and want its truths to be based on strong science--the better the science, the more I agree), Social Security is bad (it is good, but is a retirement program, not a social program to be engineered over time as to its tenets---and its funds were robbed years ago or the power of compounding interest would have it so solvent now there would be no worries), Medicare is an excellent social program. And wow, I also believe in some restrictions on the environment (witness how much better the smog is in LA than it was 20 years ago, but not the BS of the coastal commission gone crazy), and yes, some restrictions on business but not stifling to attempt re distribution of wealth. Now if those stances are idiotic so be it. I think they are moderate. So paint me as you will and then you can feel that edge of superiority in thought. But don't expect me to respond when grossly false assumptions are made about who I am or what I think. Do remember we both graduated from the same school (how could that possibly be, we don't think alike---guess you went to a different Cal than I did). Haha. Well anyway, Merry Christmas--gads I like that.


Odonto votes against his moderate beliefs because what could be more moderate than that?
sycasey
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dajo9;842782251 said:

Odonto votes against his moderate beliefs because what could be more moderate than that?


Hah, that's what I was thinking. If he believes in all that stuff it's weird that he voted for a candidate and party who believe in none of it.
burritos
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dajo9;842782251 said:

Odonto votes against his moderate beliefs because what could be more moderate than that?


Cause gut feeling trumps rationality.

Saying "Make America Great">teasing out the nuances and complexities of the issues and collectively trying to compromise and develop solutions which ultimately may not be total solutions in itself but are baby steps in the right direction to solve or improve on these issues. Oh and BTW, Obama hates America, white Christians, and Christmas. I know so because Fox news told me.
calumnus
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Cal89;842778654 said:

Across various accounts, about 60% long in stocks / ETFs. The other 40% - cash. I don't think I'll liquidate any further...

The average bull run is about 4 years, the longest 13. We are now at 7+ years into this one, the second longest in our history... I monitor about a dozen or so "macro" indicators to help me decide to what degree I remain long. The average bear mkt last about a year as I recall. Just checked, 14 months. With that, I have found it prudent to remain net long, never fully invested, and never fully out. My long positions generate income too, another reason to hang-on...

Having cash available is super important, because opportunities arise. Brexit was my last good shopping day. The Trump win did not afford the same type of opportunity, as many surmised, but I was ready though...

Given my use of "long", I also play the downside, only with options, sometimes even with futures. So much easier to stay long when the market is getting hammered with put options on the SPY or QQQ. I also sell calls against my long positions to generate income as well. Actually, selling calls on AAPL today, which I do every quarter. I use these like a sell limit order at a desired target sell price. Might as well get paid to sell at a price you want, even if doesn't reach that price by expiration...

I will secure some puts on the market by the end of this month or January. An insurance policy is some respects, a cost I'm willing to pay to keep me long and rest easier at night. I often can fund these downward positions from the income generated from selling calls against my long positions. When the market finally corrects, when I think it's a good time to go long (plenty of charting involved), I close the put positions and use the profits to enter long positions. Should the market present more buying opportunities (go lower still), the cash parked in the sidelines starts getting used. Of course, puts can be used again...

I've come to embrace down markets, in some ways more than the up ones, because they don't last as long and can move quite bit faster than up markets.


Good post--my thinking is much the same--though my portfolio after a divorce and putting two daughters through college is not.
burritos
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So is your equity exposure still 20%. Just wondering?
tequila4kapp
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dajo9;842778620 said:

These are interesting times in the capital markets. Over the past month in my 401k / IRA I have reduced my equity exposure from 80% to 20%, making the last big move today. Here are the main reasons why:
- Market sentiment is incredibly bullish
- Margin (borrowing to buy stocks) is around the highest levels ever
- Shorts on Treasuries are at incredibly high levels
- Valuations are at higher levels than any period except the dot-com bubble
- The rising dollar will hurt US exporters
- The rising dollar is wreaking havoc in some foreign countries, particularly China
- The US consumer will be hurt by the rise in interest rates (car purchases, home purchases, credit card purchases)
- Last but most importantly, the Fed is raising rates and reducing liquidity

I'm pretty confident in the move but I'm less confident in the timing. The market could continue to rise and my move into bonds could continue to hurt me (particularly with China selling US Treasuries in order to try to stop the decrease of the yuan) for many months. But I think over the next 6 months the market will have a sharp reversal and move back into safe bonds. Now I am positioned to profit off that move - if or when it happens.

One last note - my portfolio change in my taxable, non-retirement account is less dramatic because I don't want to trigger capital gains. I'm about 50/50 there.

4 months later, how'd this move work out?
dajo9
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tequila4kapp;842816686 said:

4 months later, how'd this move work out?


When I said I was less confident in the timing that has certainly come to fruition. My accounts would be healthier today if I did not make the change in my 401k. However, I am still at 20% in my IRA (and 50% in my regular brokerage, which has helped me have overall positive results during this timeframe despite).

All the same, it is hard for me to justify buying into the market at these levels and so I sit and wait and try to be zen about it.
calbear93
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cedarbear;842781756 said:

OK, I know more about this than I do about football and basketball...

Trying to time the market, especially in something like a 401K where your time horizon is decades long, is a fool's errand. Markets can go up for much longer than what might appear rational to you. If the market goes up 20% from here and you've switched to cash, what are you going to do? Stick to your guns, you say? What if it goes up another 20% once again after that? At some point, you'll probably admit defeat and jump back in....which might be exactly when the market tanks.

Say you do get it right and the market falls right after you get out. On the downside, people tend to get more bearish at precisely the wrong moment: when there's tons of bad news and stocks have gotten killed. At times like that, staying in cash seems like such a sensible thing to do. But market rebounds are inevitably sudden, sharp--and usually happen when you're still on the sidelines, trying to be sensible by holding cash because the news is so bad.

Even if you get lucky in one cycle, I guarantee you're not going to be able to get it right every time. You'll end up leaving a lot of money on the table because you missed out on market rallies that happened when you thought stocks were too expensive to own. Save yourself the trading commissions--and the stress.

Warren Buffett has it exactly right: buy stock in excellent companies that don't have a ton of debt, do generate a lot of cash, are in businesses where they have a sustainable competitive advantage, and whose stocks are not trading at stupid valuations. And then hold them for many years. If that's too much trouble, buy an S&P 500 index fund and hold it forever. In aggregate, the US economy and US companies will be innovative and adaptable; betting on them over the long, long term is the right thing to do. You can diversify by doing the same thing with a Russell 2000 index fund, since small-caps will likely outperform large-caps over the long-term.


This is great advice. For funds, especially index funds, I think putting money in on a regular schedule and just forgetting about trying to time macroeconomic conditions is the only way to go. I invest heavily in funds with low turn-over and low fees (generally Vanguard) and have not liquidated any portion of any funds in decades through all of the ups and downs.

However, for individual companies, I try to focus on maybe 5-10 companies where I read closely the MD&A to focus on trends and reasons for YoY comparisons, calculate their free cash flow margins and conversions, see industry trends, see management turnover, organic revenue growth, operating margin growth, profit margin expansion, and how they allocate their capital and what their trend is on return on invested capital (do I trust them to invest the capital better than I would if they paid more dividend). I would say that I look at those at least every quarter with their earnings release and 10-Q/10-K filings, mainly because it is fun to take part in my investments. But I try not to get attached and am ready to reduce investments if necessary on a quarterly basis. Even the great companies can face an innovation issue, new market trends, etc. I wouldn't want to keep holding them for many years unless they continue to have what made me want to invest in the first place. I wouldn't speculate based on market timing, but I think it is fun to try to understand where the company is going relative to the industry and market, and pull out or put more in depending on quarterly assessment. Graham once stated that (to paraphrase), in the short run, the market is a voting machine, but in the long run, it is a scale. I think, however, over time, the contents of the scale can change.
burritos
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dajo9;842782189 said:

How about if Putin had worked with a Democrat to win the election.

Honestly, Obama was such a good President conservatives have the luxury of being outraged over things like "Happy Holidays". That's the tell.

Western socialistic democracies seems to placate their populace with seemingly sensible safety nets. If we can't elect a communist in Bernie Sanders, having a president be a puppet to a communist nation might be a different way to eventually steer towards wealth redistribution?
calbear93
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burritos;842817130 said:

Western socialistic democracies seems to placate their populace with seemingly sensible safety nets. If we can't elect a communist in Bernie Sanders, having a president be a puppet to a communist nation might be a different way to eventually steer towards wealth redistribution?


Is Russia a communist country? Maybe slightly leaning more toward socialist with government ownership of certain critical assets, but I think they are closer to capitalism than socialism. If anything, they are moving away from being a democratic country and more of a dictatorship, but I honestly don't think there is, or has been, a true communist economic system or a true democratic form of government. The tension between US and Russia isn't based on some battle of economic philosophy. It is a question of who is going to be the world's big man on campus and whether Russia should be with the popular kids. They feel like we are shutting them out and are being hypocritical, we are repulsed by some of their tactics, and they are annoyed with NATO and the fact that our armed forces are right on their door steps (just like we would be if Canada or Mexico invited Russian army to our border). Having said all that, for the sake of appearances, there has to be an independent prosecutor investigating potential ties.
burritos
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calbear93;842817139 said:

Is Russia a communist country? Maybe slightly leaning more toward socialist with government ownership of certain critical assets, but I think they are closer to capitalism than socialism. If anything, they are moving away from being a democratic country and more of a dictatorship, but I honestly don't think there is, or has been, a true communist economic system or a true democratic form of government. The tension between US and Russia isn't based on some battle of economic philosophy. It is a question of who is going to be the world's big man on campus and whether Russia should be with the popular kids. They feel like we are shutting them out and are being hypocritical, we are repulsed by some of their tactics, and they are annoyed with NATO and the fact that our armed forces are right on their door steps (just like we would be if Canada or Mexico invited Russian army to our border). Having said all that, for the sake of appearances, there has to be an independent prosecutor investigating potential ties.


I was being tongue in cheek. Russia is a mixture of 1/2 oil depot 1/2 armament depot sprinkled with mafia fiefdoms that employ former soldiers from the afghan/chechnya theaters. All of this gloriousness is under the auspices of a KGB trained strongman trying to make Russia great again.
GB54
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burritos;842817186 said:

I was being tongue in cheek. Russia is a mixture of 1/2 oil depot 1/2 armament depot sprinkled with mafia fiefdoms that employ former soldiers from the afghan/chechnya theaters. All of this gloriousness is under the auspices of a KGB trained strongman trying to make Russia great again.


Kleptocracy
burritos
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GB54;842817228 said:

Kleptocracy


That's the eventual endgame for all societies.
GB54
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burritos;842817234 said:

That's the eventual endgame for all societies.


Rule by thieves? That's a cynical view
82gradDLSdad
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GB54;842817239 said:

Rule by thieves? That's a cynical view


Ashes to ashes. Isn't this how societies start? Can't just go out and rent land.
YamhillBear
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GB54;842817239 said:

Rule by thieves? That's a cynical view


That's what America chose in the last election.
tequila4kapp
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YamhillBear;842820553 said:

That's what America chose in the last election.


Yeah, because we had a choice between the Devil and Saint Hillary, pure as the driven snow. What a crock.
burritos
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tequila4kapp;842820682 said:

Yeah, because we had a choice between the Devil and Saint Hillary, pure as the driven snow. What a crock.


America deserves Trump. I wholeheartedly believe this.
https://thinkprogress.org/trump-health-care-admission-dd759907622f#.mw92dkvl5

Quote:

President Trump sat down Wednesday for an interview with Fox News’ Tucker Carlson, and Carlson asked him to respond to criticisms that the Republican health care plan favors the healthy and hurts most of the voters who supported his election. Trump didn’t hesitate to agree that that is exactly what it does.
Here’s the full exchange, which speaks for itself:
CARLSON: This bill has as one of its centerpieces a tax-cut for investors that would primarily benefit people making over $250,000 a year. They’ve already done pretty well in the past ten years, as you know.
TRUMP: Yeah.
CARLSON: A Bloomberg analysis showed that counties that voted for you — middle-class and working-class counties — would do far less well under this bill —
TRUMP: Yeah. Oh, I know.
CARLSON: — than the counties that voted for Hillary, the more affluent counties.
TRUMP: I know. It’s very preliminary.
CARLSON: It seems like maybe this isn’t consistent with the last election.
TRUMP: No. A lot of things aren’t consistent. But this is going to be negotiated.


Repeal obamacare already.

Quote:

The Bloomberg analysis Carlson referenced found that taxpayers in counties that voted for Hillary Clinton in the election would receive a disproportionate share of the tax cut compared to those in counties that voted for Trump. That’s because the plan cuts an additional Medicare tax that generally only more wealthy people, like those who live in or near the cities that voted for Clinton, have to pay. There were, in fact, several hundred counties that voted for Trump in which not a single person paid the tax, so literally nobody in those counties would benefit from the tax cut.

This is going to be freaking breathtaking.
tequila4kapp
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burritos;842820704 said:

America deserves Trump. I wholeheartedly believe this.
https://thinkprogress.org/trump-health-care-admission-dd759907622f#.mw92dkvl5

Repeal obamacare already.

This is going to be freaking breathtaking.

As I have observed and commented elsewhere, speaking against the left is not necessarily the same thing as supporting Trump. In this case YamhillBear argued that America chose to be ruled by thief. I content that statement is false, if for no other reason than YB's statement relies on a false narrative that America had a thief / not thief choice. Are you are arguing that the distribution of resources is disproportionate to the point of equally thievery? Are you arguing that Hillary was not a thief? (I'd prefer not to get sidetracked into defending Trump...as opposed to disputing YB's point).
burritos
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tequila4kapp;842820750 said:

As I have observed and commented elsewhere, speaking against the left is not necessarily the same thing as supporting Trump. In this case YamhillBear argued that America chose to be ruled by thief. I content that statement is false, if for no other reason than YB's statement relies on a false narrative that America had a thief / not thief choice. Are you are arguing that the distribution of resources is disproportionate to the point of equally thievery? Are you arguing that Hillary was not a thief? (I'd prefer not to get sidetracked into defending Trump...as opposed to disputing YB's point).
I don't blame the right for selecting Trump. That's like blaming a skunk for stinking. No. I blame the Obama coalition(in the swing states) for not coming out. Too bad blue states, our purple cousins states are going to drag all of us down. Their reason for not coming out was because Hilary was such a crappy candidate(which I disagree but that can be argued ad nauseum without resolution). Fine. So now we have Trump. I didn't vote for him, but I'm not going to complain about this pu$$y grabber. I'm just going to sit back and watch, just like I did during the Bush debacle.

If you rationally tell people at the beach that a tsunami is coming and then they ignore you and then you scream the warning and the tell you to f off and die, are you supposed to feel remorse and regret when you are on high ground and you see the wave crush these same people?
sycasey
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tequila4kapp;842820750 said:

As I have observed and commented elsewhere, speaking against the left is not necessarily the same thing as supporting Trump. In this case YamhillBear argued that America chose to be ruled by thief. I content that statement is false, if for no other reason than YB's statement relies on a false narrative that America had a thief / not thief choice. Are you are arguing that the distribution of resources is disproportionate to the point of equally thievery? Are you arguing that Hillary was not a thief? (I'd prefer not to get sidetracked into defending Trump...as opposed to disputing YB's point).


I have yet to see convincing evidence that Hillary Clinton is a thief. Lots of conjecture, innuendo, and conspiracy theories, yes, but no actual evidence.
calbear93
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burritos;842820704 said:

America deserves Trump. I wholeheartedly believe this.
https://thinkprogress.org/trump-health-care-admission-dd759907622f#.mw92dkvl5



Repeal obamacare already.


This is going to be freaking breathtaking.


I will just note this observation. You voted for Hillary, going against your economic interest. I voted for Hillary, going against my economic interest, my generally fiscally conservative viewpoint, and opposition to abortion. Why couldn't these people have voted against their self-interest in favor of what they believed was best for the country? Why must they be ignorant instead of just not being obsessed with money in the same way you and I were not obsessed? Just a question.
calbear93
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sycasey;842820837 said:

I have yet to see convincing evidence that Hillary Clinton is a thief. Lots of conjecture, innuendo, and conspiracy theories, yes, but no actual evidence.


It's quite possible, is it not, that tequilla was not stating that Hillary is a thief but instead was stating that, because most people viewed both candidates as morally compromised, the choice wasn't solely a binary choice of thief/no thief. Honestly, I feel like we have huge issues to deal with, but we keep getting sidetracked with nonsense that won't change a thing. I am worried about finding affordable and feasible method of providing basic healthcare for the poor (even if we have to go a single-payer system) without creating worse consequential damages (e.g., provide financing for everyone to buy a house - what could go wrong?), worried about deficit going through the roof, worried about entitlements that we can't afford but no one having the courage to try to fix, worried about selfishness and short-sightedness, worried about bloated government that takes away the humanity of its citizens, worried about greed and covetousness, worried about self-righteousness, and worried about abortion and moral decay, but media keeps chasing its own tail. We have so many complex and conflicting issues, but we get sidetracked with who is a thief or what Trump paid in taxes (as if his taxes will really reveal some connection to Russia that our intelligence couldn't gather). When we talk about those things, more important things like what our immigration policy says about us as Americans and what our healthcare policy says about us as a human race gets diluted. We feel better because we are not a thief or we are not colluding with Russia or because we didn't tap someone's phone or because we were smart enough to vote for Trump or because we were smart enough to vote for Hillary.
tequila4kapp
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calbear93;842820839 said:

I will just note this observation. You voted for Hillary, going against your economic interest. I voted for Hillary, going against my economic interest, my generally fiscally conservative viewpoint, and opposition to abortion. Why couldn't these people have voted against their self-interest in favor of what they believed was best for the country? Why must they be ignorant instead of just not being obsessed with money in the same way you and I were not obsessed? Just a question.
It is kind of arrogant to presume people didn't vote for what they believed what was best for the country just because their view of what is best maybe differs from your own.
tequila4kapp
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calbear93;842820851 said:

It's quite possible, is it not, that tequilla was not stating that Hillary is a thief but instead was stating that, because most people viewed both candidates as morally compromised, the choice wasn't solely a binary choice of thief/no thief. Honestly, I feel like we have huge issues to deal with, but we keep getting sidetracked with nonsense that won't change a thing. I am worried about finding affordable and feasible method of providing basic healthcare for the poor (even if we have to go a single-payer system) without creating worse consequential damages (e.g., provide financing for everyone to buy a house - what could go wrong?), worried about deficit going through the roof, worried about entitlements that we can't afford but no one having the courage to try to fix, worried about selfishness and short-sightedness, worried about bloated government that takes away the humanity of its citizens, worried about greed and covetousness, worried about self-righteousness, and worried about abortion and moral decay, but media keeps chasing its own tail. We have so many complex and conflicting issues, but we get sidetracked with who is a thief or what Trump paid in taxes (as if his taxes will really reveal some connection to Russia that our intelligence couldn't gather). When we talk about those things, more important things like what our immigration policy says about us as Americans and what our healthcare policy says about us as a human race gets diluted. We feel better because we are not a thief or we are not colluding with Russia or because we didn't tap someone's phone or because we were smart enough to vote for Trump or because we were smart enough to vote for Hillary.
Thank you for saying it better than I could.
burritos
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calbear93;842820839 said:

I will just note this observation. You voted for Hillary, going against your economic interest. I voted for Hillary, going against my economic interest, my generally fiscally conservative viewpoint, and opposition to abortion. Why couldn't these people have voted against their self-interest in favor of what they believed was best for the country? Why must they be ignorant instead of just not being obsessed with money in the same way you and I were not obsessed? Just a question.

They absolutely can vote against their economic interest. And the selfish part of me thanks them for it. But when the people who voted for Trump"feel that they were left behind", to me that is an economic sentiment. When 25% of the electorate can't name the three branches of government, I strongly suspect ignorance is present in abundance. That being said, I 100% submit to the will of the electorally elected POTUS. I don't want him impeached. I don't want to see his taxes. I'm not moving to Canada. I recognize that the system just might more wisdom than I think I have. I don't think so. I put it at 60% I'm right, 40% I'm wrong. Bush fulfilled my every expectation of how crappy a president he was going to be.
burritos
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calbear93;842820851 said:

It's quite possible, is it not, that tequilla was not stating that Hillary is a thief but instead was stating that, because most people viewed both candidates as morally compromised, the choice wasn't solely a binary choice of thief/no thief. Honestly, I feel like we have huge issues to deal with, but we keep getting sidetracked with nonsense that won't change a thing. I am worried about finding affordable and feasible method of providing basic healthcare for the poor (even if we have to go a single-payer system) without creating worse consequential damages (e.g., provide financing for everyone to buy a house - what could go wrong?), worried about deficit going through the roof, worried about entitlements that we can't afford but no one having the courage to try to fix, worried about selfishness and short-sightedness, worried about bloated government that takes away the humanity of its citizens, worried about greed and covetousness, worried about self-righteousness, and worried about abortion and moral decay, but media keeps chasing its own tail. We have so many complex and conflicting issues, but we get sidetracked with who is a thief or what Trump paid in taxes (as if his taxes will really reveal some connection to Russia that our intelligence couldn't gather). When we talk about those things, more important things like what our immigration policy says about us as Americans and what our healthcare policy says about us as a human race gets diluted. We feel better because we are not a thief or we are not colluding with Russia or because we didn't tap someone's phone or because we were smart enough to vote for Trump or because we were smart enough to vote for Hillary.



Everyone around the world is pissed off(except for maybe lost tribes in the Amazon). It doesn't matter who was elected. I think we might just be in the "Unraveling". They should make a movie.
sycasey
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calbear93;842820839 said:

I will just note this observation. You voted for Hillary, going against your economic interest. I voted for Hillary, going against my economic interest, my generally fiscally conservative viewpoint, and opposition to abortion. Why couldn't these people have voted against their self-interest in favor of what they believed was best for the country? Why must they be ignorant instead of just not being obsessed with money in the same way you and I were not obsessed? Just a question.


I see it as there being a different morality involved. If you are well-off and vote against your economic interest, then by definition you are trying to help the "less fortunate" over benefiting yourselves. Now, that's not a perfect analogy, because I think a number of wealthy liberals do consider this in their best interest, just in an indirect way: they take the long view that having a stable, happy working class will ultimately make their own businesses/investments more stable. But that said, in the short term they are taking money out of their own pockets and giving it to those who have less.

When it goes the other way around, it's people who have less giving it to those who have more. The moral imperative of doing so seems much shakier to me.
calbear93
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sycasey;842820909 said:

I see it as there being a different morality involved. If you are well-off and vote against your economic interest, then by definition you are trying to help the "less fortunate" over benefiting yourselves. Now, that's not a perfect analogy, because I think a number of wealthy liberals do consider this in their best interest, just in an indirect way: they take the long view that having a stable, happy working class will ultimately make their own businesses/investments more stable. But that said, in the short term they are taking money out of their own pockets and giving it to those who have less.

When it goes the other way around, it's people who have less giving it to those who have more. The moral imperative of doing so seems much shakier to me.


Maybe. I think that is a cynical and potentially an inaccurate way of viewing things. I have to say that I am often inspired by underprivileged folks who give generously from even the little they have. Anyone (whether through a mission trip or otherwise) who has gone to build homes or serve a poor community will most likely have experienced the same. Just the generosity from which less fortunate people who give and share not because they have so much but because of who they are and because their principle and morals are stronger than their materialism is truly humbling. And when I see and experience that, it moves me much deeper to fight against my materialism and faith in money than any elite talking down to me about wealth redistribution. Sycasey, one of the lessons that I truly value from my experience from Cal were the dignified connections I made with the homeless folks living below my apartment. Back when I was a smoker, I would go down and share my smokes with them. Initially, I was curious how they ended up in such difficult situation, and we would talk as two human beings made in the image of God and sharing the same human condition and not as rich/poor, student/homeless person. What I learned was that they truly value the respect and dignity, and they have the sincere belief that they will find a way back to what they long for - to be working again and being able to afford a living. And these folks who had nothing would leave food that others shared with them for me and my roommates. And even though I never ate what they left, I never rejected it because I suspected the dignity that comes with sharing something with others often outweighs material possessions. So, I don't think these people who are poor only care about getting more or that they think that doing what they believe is right is tantamount to giving to the rich. And treating them as idiots when they are like most people and long for dignity is a sure way to turn even moderates into raging far-right conservatives.
burritos
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calbear93;842820921 said:

Maybe. I think that is a cynical and potentially an inaccurate way of viewing things. I have to say that I am often inspired by underprivileged folks who give generously from even the little they have. Anyone (whether through a mission trip or otherwise) who has gone to build homes or serve a poor community will most likely have experienced the same. Just the generosity from which less fortunate people who give and share not because they have so much but because of who they are and because their principle and morals are stronger than their materialism is truly humbling. And when I see and experience that, it moves me much deeper to fight against my materialism and faith in money than any elite talking down to me about wealth redistribution. Sycasey, one of the lessons that I truly value from my experience from Cal were the dignified connections I made with the homeless folks living below my apartment. Back when I was a smoker, I would go down and share my smokes with them. Initially, I was curious how they ended up in such difficult situation, and we would talk as two human beings made in the image of God and sharing the same human condition and not as rich/poor, student/homeless person. What I learned was that they truly value the respect and dignity, and they have the sincere belief that they will find a way back to what they long for - to be working again and being able to afford a living. And these folks who had nothing would leave food that others shared with them for me and my roommates. And even though I never ate what they left, I never rejected it because I suspected the dignity that comes with sharing something with others often outweighs material possessions. So, I don't think these people who are poor only care about getting more or that they think that doing what they believe is right is tantamount to giving to the rich. And treating them as idiots when they are like most people and long for dignity is a sure way to turn even moderates into raging far-right conservatives.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129068241
Quote:

Mr. PIFF: You know, I had expected this pattern might pan out given the earlier that we've done on the effects of poverty on people's behavior toward others, but the findings that we had across experiments and across contexts in many ways speak against hundreds of years of economical thinking about how people would behave toward others when they're in need.

So I think it's really an interesting counter-intuitive pattern of results that really speaks against certain intuitions that we might have about the behavior of the wealthy or how the wealthy might act toward others.

RAZ: That's Paul Piff. He's a psychology researcher at U.C. Berkeley. His team's findings that the poor are more charitable than the rich were published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. Paul Piff, thanks so much.


Poorer people are more generous I think because they are poor. They are intimate with the condition and therefore the natural human tendency to empathize lends them to be generous to the poor.
dajo9
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I think struggling Trump voters voted for their self interest. They were promised jobs. They voted for jobs. I think Trump was lying but time will tell.
dajo9
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btw, I have an update for this thread. The market continues to go up and I built up some cash. So I sold a little more of my equities and paid off the mortgage on my rental.
 
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