No...he turns into a freaky bird and it only gets nuder and nuder from there.

God, I'm exhausted. It took me 4 hours to watch that episode (had other things going on), which made it worse because I had to stay off the internet for 7 hours until finishing (except BI -- I knew you guys wouldn't spoil it for me!)

I think this season would've been better off being the standard 10 episodes. Let it breathe! (One writer was speculating that they did 7 episodes to save money, as the actors are paid per episode. So the money could go to effects. But can't HBO just throw them a lot of money?)

New York Times TV critic...

The theon storyline has jumped the shark

okaydo;842865441 said:

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Damn just watched the Cal vs. Nevada game and didn't expect the loss...did Tedford end up surviving the season?

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No jokes needed I was serious. Hmph

SRBear;842865444 said:

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No...he turns into a freaky bird and it only gets nuder and nuder from there.

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Alrighty

tommie317;842865465 said:

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The theon storyline has jumped the shark

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The Ironborn will stand with anyone who wins a fight even if he's castrated

I can see a reason for Sansa/Arya to play it the way they did. Littlefinger is slippery. If he gets wind that the Starks have turned against him, he'll be gone. They wanted to make him believe that he was in control, to trick him into a public scene he can't escape from or talk his way out of.

The Cersei criticisms are tough because there's a lot supposedly happening off-screen that we don't get to see. But I can think of a number of ways she would have planned that out with Euron, either before or after the meeting with Dany.

sycasey;842865471 said:

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I can see a reason for Sansa/Arya to play it the way they did. Littlefinger is slippery. If he gets wind that the Starks have turned against him, he'll be gone. They wanted to make him believe that he was in control, to trick him into a public scene he can't escape from or talk his way out of.

The Cersei criticisms are tough because there's a lot supposedly happening off-screen that we don't get to see. But I can think of a number of ways she would have planned that out with Euron, either before or after the meeting with Dany.

---

Exactly

Pretty good Jon Snow mashup....

[video=youtube;v8hZtdzLM18][/video]

SRBear;842865444 said:

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No...he turns into a freaky bird and it only gets nuder and nuder from there.

---

If you see any comely female in GOT that makes you think, "Gee, I wonder how she looks in her birthday suit?", your curiosity is almost certain to assuaged. SRBear wasn't joking about the freaky bird thing either, but it a few seasons to get there.

Anyone hearing about the disturbing rumors on what's going to happen to ALL the Starks and all seeing Branden letting it happen?

tommie317;842865465 said:

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The theon storyline has jumped the shark

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The problem with the Theon storyline is that most people don't care about Yara or Theon at this point. I get that Theon has probably paid more than anyone else for what he did to the Starks, but his redemption story is not that compelling.

And I am already tired of Euron. What was the whole point of tricking everyone about him going off in fear, when he didn't even need to be there in the first place other than to aggravate Theon and let him know that Yara is alive. Otherwise, no trickery would have been required if he didn't show up at all.

Having said all that, this was one of the best episodes of the season. The scenes between Pod and Tyrion, Tyrion and Bronn, and the Hound and Brienne were great. Even Tyrion versus Cersei was great, although I still don't get why the show is making him out to be a big moron, constantly outsmarted by Cersei. All that dialogue reaffirmed what makes this such a great show. In a world of dragons, white zombies, kingdoms, etc., the darkness of basic humanity and the chaos it creates was reflective of any history and reality.

Glad Littlefinger story was resolved. He was adding nothing to the story, and the sister conflict (in the presence of someone who should know all things - except, as shown by Sam right after TER says he sees all, he doesn't know everything) was getting annoying.

burritos;842865479 said:

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Anyone hearing about the disturbing rumors on what's going to happen to ALL the Starks and all seeing Branden letting it happen?

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Rumor? Based on what? Has the script already been finalized? If not, I guess I am not understanding the legitimacy of any rumor.

sycasey;842865471 said:

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I can see a reason for Sansa/Arya to play it the way they did. Littlefinger is slippery. If he gets wind that the Starks have turned against him, he'll be gone. They wanted to make him believe that he was in control, to trick him into a public scene he can't escape from or talk his way out of.

The Cersei criticisms are tough because there's a lot supposedly happening off-screen that we don't get to see. But I can think of a number of ways she would have planned that out with Euron, either before or after the meeting with Dany.

---

So, why have the freaky conversation between just the two, where Sansa discovered Arya's bag of goodies? No need for all that. And it isn't as if they didn't have all of the evidence they presented even without the conflict. However, I get it. They wanted to add drama and provide a bigger payoff for one of the true source of the conflict in the story.

calbear93;842865488 said:

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So, why have the freaky conversation between just the two, where Sansa discovered Arya's bag of goodies? No need for all that. And it isn't as if they didn't have all of the evidence they presented even without the conflict.

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They figure Littlefinger is always watching them from some dark corner (which he is). It's a performance for him as much as for the audience.

sycasey;842865489 said:

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They figure Littlefinger is always watching them from some dark corner (which he is). It's a performance for him as much as for the audience.

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But they clearly had some conversation where they discussed the plot to trap him. Clearly they didn't think he was always watching. Just seems contrived, but I don't care. This was a great episode, and the final scene was awesome. I am a bit worried about Tormund. Wish they didn't make me have to wait a whole year to find out what happened to one of my favorite characters.

calbear93;842865487 said:

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Rumor? Based on what? Has the script already been finalized? If not, I guess I am not understanding the legitimacy of any rumor.

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Based on nothing I suppose. From savvier GOT'ers than me. I don't interpret, just eat what is spoon fed to me. Want to hear it? Cause it sounds like a Martinesque move presaged with a little bit of foreshadowing hints.

burritos;842865492 said:

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Based on nothing I suppose. From savvier GOT'ers than me. I don't interpret, just eat what is spoon fed to me. Want to hear it? Cause it sounds like a Martinesque move presaged with a little bit of foreshadowing hints.

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No, I like being surprised, either pleasantly or throw the remote to the floor kind of way (like when I thought they killed off Snow).

calbear93;842865494 said:

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No, I like being surprised, either pleasantly or throw the remote to the floor kind of way (like when I thought they killed off Snow).

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C'mon. I want to spill the beans. Plus it's only a rumor.

calbear93;842865483 said:

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The problem with the Theon storyline is that most people don't care about Yara or Theon at this point. I get that Theon has probably paid more than anyone else for what he did to the Starks, but his redemption story is not that compelling.

And I am already tired of Euron. What was the whole point of tricking everyone about him going off in fear, when he didn't even need to be there in the first place other than to aggravate Theon and let him know that Yara is alive. Otherwise, no trickery would have been required if he didn't show up at all.

Having said all that, this was one of the best episodes of the season. The scenes between Pod and Tyrion, Tyrion and Bronn, and the Hound and Brienne were great. Even Tyrion versus Cersei was great, although I still don't get why the show is making him out to be a big moron, constantly outsmarted by Cersei. All that dialogue reaffirmed what makes this such a great show. In a world of dragons, white zombies, kingdoms, etc., the darkness of basic humanity and the chaos it creates was reflective of any history and reality.

Glad Littlefinger story was resolved. He was adding nothing to the story, and the sister conflict (in the presence of someone who should know all things - except, as shown by Sam right after TER says he sees all, he doesn't know everything) was getting annoying.

---

I care about Yara. It's clearly a secondary subplot, but I always liked that character and want to see what happens.

Euron is just the latest outright evil (human) character we can all hate together. They need a new one after they dispatched the previous (Joffrey, Ramsay).

The Anya/Sansa thing works because it is based on Littlefinger's observation-"The Starks are slow learners." Even as it unfolds we think, 'she can't possibly be this dumb again...yes, she can'

This guy pretty much sums up how I felt about the finale: https://www.wired.com/story/game-of-thrones-recap-season-7-episode-7/

"There should be nothing to regret, honestly. People loved the story for reasons as good as anyone ever loved anything. I loved Game of Thrones for its nuance and its scope—the way that it felt like it could contain everything from the intensely personal to the broadly political. Imagine it as a magnifying glass, an icon with a plus and a minus. No matter how far you scaled in or out, its integrity held. There was no level of magnification where its world-building or its character-building would fail you. Just forever deeper and broader, amen and amen, like it would never end.

But here at the end, where it asks that no one look beyond an individual moment of horror or glory, beyond the theatrical grandeur of a dragon breathing fire or an army marching rudderless into a great battle, its narrative scope is failing. And so viewers descend into the great nightmare of being a writer, staring down the outline of a story and having no idea how to bridge from one choice to another, when there are no answers to give. What do you do when they turn to you and ask what it all means, and why you have been doing this for so long? You stumble and gibber and with nothing else to offer, you say: absolute goddamn nonsense."
-------------

For me, film/tv works best when you are watching with your heart and not your head. But once something in the story doesn't make sense, your brain starts to kick in and you start intellectualizing the story rather than living emotionally with the story. That's what's happened with me GoT. There are just too many things that don't add up

- Tyrion is presumably the smartest person in Westeros and no one trusts Cersei less. and he thinks that during his little pow wow that he convinces Cersei to not only stand down but to fight in the North? I mean, maybe Tyrion knows he's getting double crossed and he's playing the long game?
- This is the moment that Jaime says F it? not when Cersei blows up the Sept and essentially kills their son? or some of the other numerous atrocities done at her hand. This is the moment? This completely predictable moment?
- Theon is more overmatched than McGregor but by the magic of having no balls, he's able to win?
- Jon refuses to pledge that he won't fight, even though he's not honor bound to do so? My understanding is that by bending the knee, you are obligated to fight when called upon (and that's it). Well, its not being dis-honorable to not fight if your Queen never asks you to fight (or doesn't even want you to fight). i know Starks are supposed to be dumb, but c'mon. the fate of the world was hanging in the balance and Jon pisses it away cause of some weird sense of honor?
- Littlefinger doesn't see the girls' ruse coming a mile away?
- And this has been discussed, but what's the point of the ruse anyways? I guess Sansa (since she's a slow learner) needed some time to figure out for herself that Littlefinger was playing her. But once she figures that out, why continue with the ruse? Why not just have a public trial immediately? There was no reason to play it out and have the big "gotcha" moment except for the sake of fan service. And that, in a nutshell, is my biggest problem. When faced with fan service v. story integrity, Martin would always go with the latter.

ducky23;842865521 said:

---

This guy pretty much sums up how I felt about the finale: https://www.wired.com/story/game-of-thrones-recap-season-7-episode-7/

"There should be nothing to regret, honestly. People loved the story for reasons as good as anyone ever loved anything. I loved Game of Thrones for its nuance and its scope—the way that it felt like it could contain everything from the intensely personal to the broadly political. Imagine it as a magnifying glass, an icon with a plus and a minus. No matter how far you scaled in or out, its integrity held. There was no level of magnification where its world-building or its character-building would fail you. Just forever deeper and broader, amen and amen, like it would never end.

But here at the end, where it asks that no one look beyond an individual moment of horror or glory, beyond the theatrical grandeur of a dragon breathing fire or an army marching rudderless into a great battle, its narrative scope is failing. And so viewers descend into the great nightmare of being a writer, staring down the outline of a story and having no idea how to bridge from one choice to another, when there are no answers to give. What do you do when they turn to you and ask what it all means, and why you have been doing this for so long? You stumble and gibber and with nothing else to offer, you say: absolute goddamn nonsense."
-------------

For me, film/tv works best when you are watching with your heart and not your head. But once something in the story doesn't make sense, your brain starts to kick in and you start intellectualizing the story rather than living emotionally with the story. That's what's happened with me GoT. There are just too many things that don't add up

- Tyrion is presumably the smartest person in Westeros and no one trusts Cersei less. and he thinks that during his little pow wow that he convinces Cersei to not only stand down but to fight in the North? I mean, maybe Tyrion knows he's getting double crossed and he's playing the long game?
- This is the moment that Jaime says F it? not when Cersei blows up the Sept and essentially kills their son? or some of the other numerous atrocities done at her hand. This is the moment? This completely predictable moment?
- Theon is more overmatched than McGregor but by the magic of having no balls, he's able to win?
- Jon refuses to pledge that he won't fight, even though he's not honor bound to do so? My understanding is that by bending the knee, you are obligated to fight when called upon (and that's it). Well, its not being dis-honorable to not fight if your Queen never asks you to fight (or doesn't even want you to fight). i know Starks are supposed to be dumb, but c'mon. the fate of the world was hanging in the balance and Jon pisses it away cause of some weird sense of honor?
- Littlefinger doesn't see the girls' ruse coming a mile away?
- And this has been discussed, but what's the point of the ruse anyways? I guess Sansa (since she's a slow learner) needed some time to figure out for herself that Littlefinger was playing her. But once she figures that out, why continue with the ruse? Why not just have a public trial immediately? There was no reason to play it out and have the big "gotcha" moment except for the sake of fan service. And that, in a nutshell, is my biggest problem. When faced with fan service v. story integrity, Martin would always go with the latter.

---

Agree with all that you said. For those defending GoT season 7 and/or saying this is the best season yet, we clearly have different expectations. Seasons 1-6 was consistent in its storytelling and gut wrenching surprises; season 7 was Hollywood-level predictability that makes it just like another fantasy show on TV. GoT became so immensely popular because despite the fantasy aspect, it was very real and very believable. Season 7 relied way too much on deux ex-machina and fan service.

For those arguing that the casual GoT fan became too immersed in the story by reading and watching all the theories, and aren't surprised because of that reason, I'd argue that despite having the GoT books through the first six seasons (and not having read any of them), I was still surprised as a casual fan and had little to no critiques on it.

Season 7 had so many flaws that it was exposed easily to even the casual fan like me. Season 7 GoT is like Godfather 3 or Fast and Furious Tokyo Drift. It's just so different and shittier than the rest of the series.

I'm really hoping that the producers will get back to the core of Got and what made it so good: rely on the storytelling and acting, rather than aesthetics. (That's all we heard during the offseason this past year: how they're spending so much on each episode; how they're putting all these resources into special effects and CGI, etc. Sadly, they didn't put the same effort in the script writing and storytelling.)

travelingbears;842865536 said:

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Agree with all that you said. For those defending GoT season 7 and/or saying this is the best season yet, we clearly have different expectations. Seasons 1-6 was consistent in its storytelling and gut wrenching surprises; season 7 was Hollywood-level predictability that makes it just like another fantasy show on TV. GoT became so immensely popular because despite the fantasy aspect, it was very real and very believable. Season 7 relied way too much on deux ex-machina and fan service.

For those arguing that the casual GoT fan became too immersed in the story by reading and watching all the theories, and aren't surprised because of that reason, I'd argue that despite having the GoT books through the first six seasons (and not having read any of them), I was still surprised as a casual fan and had little to no critiques on it.

Season 7 had so many flaws that it was exposed easily to even the casual fan like me. Season 7 GoT is like Godfather 3 or Fast and Furious Tokyo Drift. It's just so different and shittier than the rest of the series.

I'm really hoping that the producers will get back to the core of Got and what made it so good: rely on the storytelling and acting, rather than aesthetics. (That's all we heard during the offseason this past year: how they're spending so much on each episode; how they're putting all these resources into special effects and CGI, etc. Sadly, they didn't put the same effort in the script writing and storytelling.)

---

With the number of episodes left and the amount of story still left uncovered, we are beyond that point of layers and intrigue. I am not expecting the type of nuances and human reality in the midst of dragons that made GoT so special earlier, but I would be happy with no more crap like - hey, everyone who used to be smart and political - let's send our key members beyond the wall to get a wight to convince a conniving, most murderous woman in the world to join the cause for good. Oh - and we just lost a dragon to the night king.

Otherwise, I am OK with wrapping this up with a story that doesn't insult us. This show will not go down the path of Walking Dead, and is still one of the best shows out there.

Come on, Ducky. Would your really give up having sex with your twin sister?

travelingbears;842865536 said:

---

Agree with all that you said. For those defending GoT season 7 and/or saying this is the best season yet, we clearly have different expectations. Seasons 1-6 was consistent in its storytelling and gut wrenching surprises; season 7 was Hollywood-level predictability that makes it just like another fantasy show on TV. GoT became so immensely popular because despite the fantasy aspect, it was very real and very believable. Season 7 relied way too much on deux ex-machina and fan service.

For those arguing that the casual GoT fan became too immersed in the story by reading and watching all the theories, and aren't surprised because of that reason, I'd argue that despite having the GoT books through the first six seasons (and not having read any of them), I was still surprised as a casual fan and had little to no critiques on it.

Season 7 had so many flaws that it was exposed easily to even the casual fan like me. Season 7 GoT is like Godfather 3 or Fast and Furious Tokyo Drift. It's just so different and shittier than the rest of the series.

I'm really hoping that the producers will get back to the core of Got and what made it so good: rely on the storytelling and acting, rather than aesthetics. (That's all we heard during the offseason this past year: how they're spending so much on each episode; how they're putting all these resources into special effects and CGI, etc. Sadly, they didn't put the same effort in the script writing and storytelling.)

---

thats not going to happen. the next season is the white walker war. be prepared for heavy CGI.

gobears725;842865558 said:

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thats not going to happen. the next season is the white walker war. be prepared for heavy CGI.

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That sucks, as one writer wrote this morning, the Night King and his army are underwhelming because they're all CGI. I mean, the dude who plays the Night King isn't even a household name among Game of Thrones fans.

calbear93;842865540 said:

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With the number of episodes left and the amount of story still left uncovered, we are beyond that point of layers and intrigue. I am not expecting the type of nuances and human reality in the midst of dragons that made GoT so special earlier, but I would be happy with no more crap like - hey, everyone who used to be smart and political - let's send our key members beyond the wall to get a wight to convince a conniving, most murderous woman in the world to join the cause for good. Oh - and we just lost a dragon to the night king.

Otherwise, I am OK with wrapping this up with a story that doesn't insult us. This show will not go down the path of Walking Dead, and is still one of the best shows out there.

---

Honestly, I don't think it was realistic to expect that the story would continue so heavily on the "anti-fanservice" bent it was in the earlier seasons. At some point, you have to reach a reasonably satisfying conclusion, and that means also adhering to some typical story conventions. Martin's books might do some things differently (the escapade beyond the wall might have had some better motivation behind it), but I suspect they will wind up in about the same place.

[video=youtube;uoP-5LS3D1s][/video]

He's not wrong

okaydo;842865463 said:

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New York Times TV critic...

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tommie317;842865465 said:

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The theon storyline has jumped the shark

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The Theon story was never interesting to begin with. Unless he does something incredibly redeeming, there's not really any reason for him to be in the story at all.

calbear93;842865488 said:

---

So, why have the freaky conversation between just the two, where Sansa discovered Arya's bag of goodies? No need for all that. And it isn't as if they didn't have all of the evidence they presented even without the conflict. However, I get it. They wanted to add drama and provide a bigger payoff for one of the true source of the conflict in the story.

---

The reason for all that was to "fool" the audience, even though the audience wasn't fooled. To try and create some explanation for why have all these private conversations because "Littlefinger is always watching"? Ridiculous. If he's always watching, why doesn't he see the offscreen conversation where Bran reveals all the stuff that Sansa and Arya didn't know about? Because it was all done to have a gotcha moment. I would much have rather have Littlefinger work on some new intrigue (although with Daenerys in Westeros, he's run out of people to manipulate) that failed rather than this BS thing where he tries to have Sansa kill Arya (To what end? How does that advance Littlefinger's goals?), which is really just him hanging out in Winterfell long enough to get killed. It was a weak resolution of a weak subplot.

The Cersei "doublecross" is the same thing. It's unnecessary. She could've just refused to help and that would've been the end of it. Instead there's this elaborate ruse of Euron running back to the Iron Islands and Cersei sending her army to help fight the Night King when it's going to be immediately obvious that she reneged. It doesn't gain her anything. And then to start talking to Jaime like he's an imbecile and she's some sort of genius (which she isn't) makes no sense, other than to provide a reason for him to leave. Fortunately, the books had already started laying the groundwork for Jaime growing apart from Cersei.

In addition, the big reveal with Jon creates even more conflicts with the books as there has already been a son of Rheagar named Aegon Targaryen who is already with the Golden Company that Cersei wants to hire to defend her kingdom. They could have named him any number of things that wouldn't have conflicted with other family members, but they decided to name him Aegon anyway.