MoragaBear;842862725 said:

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In contrast, this is BY FAR my favorite season, though I loved the last two episodes of season 6.

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I agree, I like they are shutting down extraneous plot lines, throwing in some surprises, and efficiently moving the plot along, all w/o resulting to gimmicks. The one exception for me is that dumb opening of the last episode where Jamie and Braun reappearing far away from the battle scene like nothing happened. But otherwise excellent scenes, all meaningful.

It is shocking to me that Tyrion, knowing it was Jaime charging Dany, wouldn't be interested in finding/rescuing his brother who he truly cares about...tho, after seeing what happened to the Tarleys he's probably glad because no way would Jaime be bending a knee.

SRBear;842862834 said:

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It is shocking to me that Tyrion, knowing it was Jaime charging Dany, wouldn't be interested in finding/rescuing his brother who he truly cares about...tho, after seeing what happened to the Tarleys he's probably glad because no way would Jaime be bending a knee.

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Logistically, that would seem difficult. You're in the middle of the battle. Your queen is down with her dragon, just fended off your brother who tried to take her out. You, as a midget try to gather the troops to locate your presumably incinerated brother in all this ruckus? Regardless of motive, making this happen under the circumstances sounds less plausible than the existence of dragons.

Tyrion WAS looking for Jaime but was trying to be less than obvious. When it was time for the survivors to meet Dany, he ran out of time to search. I think that his inability to find anything connected with Jaime means he probably suspects that he's still alive (or totally incinerated - as Dany may believe).

From Tyrion's perspective, he should have been able to see Bron's rescue of Jaime into the water...From Dany's perspective, she probably assumed incineration.

So how. Any episodes remaining this season?
I heard it's a much shorter season

thx for the info MB.
while it's not good to stretch things out, I wonder why they would have fewer episodes, yet longer shows
seems like a long wait between seasons, and then over in a flash

MoragaBear;842863094 said:

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It's only 7 episodes this season instead of 10. There are 2 left, though I think both are supposed to be somewhat longer episodes.

Next season's final season will be only 6 but I've heard many or all may be as much as twice as long as the regular episodes.

Then comes whatever spinoff they decide on. I'm betting on Robert's Rebellion era, going back @20 years from season 1.

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just watched the GOT Looney and Bequeath video and the first thing said in the video was that there were only two games left (answering my question!)

i don't recall any show with such a wide following, and the basketball and football players are no exception

One more episode to go

Fire and Fury.

Loved Dany's North of the Wall designer outfit

MoragaBear;842863241 said:

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I'm seriously stressed out after that episode.

Way to much tension...

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That's just your sense of credulity being strained by a giant patch of thin ice saving our raiding party long enough for someone to sprint back to the Wall, have a maester that no one's ever seen send a warp speed travelling raven to Dragonstone so that the three warp speed travelling dragons can show up in the nick of time to save this mission of idiocy, only to lose one dragon to the incredible javelin throwing Night King. And then yet another Deus Ex Machina when Uncle Benjen magically shows up to provide a horse so Jon can get back to the wall after climbing out of the ice water near a whole bunch of undead soldiers that for some reason don't attack him.

And that's before even accounting for this hard-to-believe tiff between Arya and Sansa and Sansa sending Brienne off to King's Landing for no good reason other than to make sure Sansa has no bodyguard.

BearNecessities;842863243 said:

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That's just your sense of credulity being strained by a giant patch of thin ice saving our raiding party long enough for someone to sprint back to the Wall, have a maester that no one's ever seen send a warp speed travelling raven to Dragonstone so that the three warp speed travelling dragons can show up in the nick of time to save this mission of idiocy, only to lose one dragon to the incredible javelin throwing Night King. And then yet another Dues Ex Machine when Uncle Benjen magically shows up to provide a horse so Jon can get back to the wall after climbing out of the ice water near a whole bunch of undead soldiers that for some reason don't attack him.

And that's before even accounting for this hard-to-believe tiff between Arya and Sansa and Sansa sending Brienne off to King's Landing for no good reason other than to make sure Sansa has no bodyguard.

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...fine, but when is the Viking ginger Wilding dude and Brienne going to have a cataclysmic coupling?

BearNecessities;842863243 said:

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That's just your sense of credulity being strained by a giant patch of thin ice saving our raiding party long enough for someone to sprint back to the Wall, have a maester that no one's ever seen send a warp speed travelling raven to Dragonstone so that the three warp speed travelling dragons can show up in the nick of time to save this mission of idiocy, only to lose one dragon to the incredible javelin throwing Night King. And then yet another Deus Ex Machina when Uncle Benjen magically shows up to provide a horse so Jon can get back to the wall after climbing out of the ice water near a whole bunch of undead soldiers that for some reason don't attack him.

And that's before even accounting for this hard-to-believe tiff between Arya and Sansa and Sansa sending Brienne off to King's Landing for no good reason other than to make sure Sansa has no bodyguard.

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TV shows are not logic puzzles.

I'm sorry but it was awesome. It's a show with freaking dragons and zombies for God's sake, not The Wire. Long live GOT!

sycasey;842863255 said:

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TV shows are not logic puzzles.

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I should expand on this . . .

Internet criticism of TV and movies tends to center on "plot holes" or "illogical" things because it's the easiest thing to zero in on. But that's not really how shows/movies work on audiences. They work because they make people care about the characters in the story and/or the themes being explored, not because they are logically perfect and airtight. Raiders of the Lost Ark has logic gaps all over the place, but it doesn't matter because they made me like Indy and care about what happens to him, and then threw him into a bunch of great hair-raising action/suspense scenes. Game of Thrones has done the same thing. Viewers are stressed out and tense during these scenes because they've come to care about the people in them.

And in any event, the timing issues aren't even real plot holes, it's more of a cheat or short-cut. Notice that the show never actually SAYS how long Jon Snow and crew were sitting on that rock in the frozen lake, or how long Dany waited at the Wall for Jon to return. Could have been days or weeks. It's less about plot holes and more about an accelerated timeline. I do understand why that throws some people off, since the earlier seasons moved more slowly (probably because they were waiting for George R.R. Martin to get his ass in gear and finish the story). But it's not a problem of credulity if you are willing to meet the show halfway.

BearNecessities;842863243 said:

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That's just your sense of credulity being strained by a giant patch of thin ice saving our raiding party long enough for someone to sprint back to the Wall, have a maester that no one's ever seen send a warp speed travelling raven to Dragonstone so that the three warp speed travelling dragons can show up in the nick of time to save this mission of idiocy, only to lose one dragon to the incredible javelin throwing Night King. And then yet another Deus Ex Machina when Uncle Benjen magically shows up to provide a horse so Jon can get back to the wall after climbing out of the ice water near a whole bunch of undead soldiers that for some reason don't attack him.

And that's before even accounting for this hard-to-believe tiff between Arya and Sansa and Sansa sending Brienne off to King's Landing for no good reason other than to make sure Sansa has no bodyguard.

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Where did those awesome chains come from that they used to pull up the dragon? The logistics behind all that are mind bending. If the undead can get down to that dragon to hitch him up with chains then the ice cracking shouldn't really have slowed them down.

Why did the Night King throw his javelin at the flying dragon instead of the prone dragon with all the attackers piling on?

So, Jon Snow, who seems to survive confrontations with the Night King, even though the dead dragged him under, must survive to the end. The Night King must die and all the walking dead with him. If you kill the King all the resuscitated dead must die with him. Will the fact that Jon Snow petted the dragon in the previous episode prevent the reanimated dragon from harming Jon? I don't think so. The surviving dragons must fight their brother to the death.

By the way, why the hell did that group of seven confront and capture one of the dead in the first place?

I agree with SYCasey that time and space shouldn't matter but some of these plot points like the whole band of brothers over the wall fiasco-"Hey,guys, why don't we just do a flyover with Danerys instead"- just make me think that this is the season where all the smart men are dead and the smart women-Cersei and Danerys- are in charge.

GB54;842863305 said:

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I agree with SYCasey that time and space shouldn't matter but some of these plot points like the whole band of brothers over the wall fiasco-"Hey,guys, why don't we just do a flyover with Danerys instead"- just make me think that this is the season where all the smart men are dead and the smart women-Cersei and Danerys- are in charge.

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Yes, I think those criticisms are more fair. They have to do with character consistency and motivation, not plot logic. Though as to this question about why Dany didn't just fly the dragons in: it wasn't explicitly stated before, but she said in this episode, "You don't truly believe it until you see." I think she didn't completely believe in the White Walker story either. She was willing to send dragons on a specific rescue mission, but not necessarily on some wild goose chase.

6bear6;842863302 said:

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So, Jon Snow, who seems to survive confrontations with the Night King, even though the dead dragged him under, must survive to the end. The Night King must die and all the walking dead with him. If you kill the King all the resuscitated dead must die with him. Will the fact that Jon Snow petted the dragon in the previous episode prevent the reanimated dragon from harming Jon? I don't think so. The surviving dragons must fight their brother to the death.

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This will be interesting. I could see it playing out like you say here. Remember, the original story is A Song of Ice and Fire. Jon represents the union of the fire (Targaryen) and ice (Stark) family houses. If there was one guy who would have the ability to control an ice dragon . . .

sycasey;842863307 said:

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Yes, I think those criticisms are more fair. They have to do with character consistency and motivation, not plot logic. Though as to this question about why Dany didn't just fly the dragons in: it wasn't explicitly stated before, but she said in this episode, "You don't truly believe it until you see." I think she didn't completely believe in the White Walker story either. She was willing to send dragons on a specific rescue mission, but not necessarily on some wild goose chase.

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Yeah but the whole escapade is a needless distraction for her plus it's based on another mind boggling premise- that capturing a white walker and presenting it to Cersei is going to change her. Why should we understand Tyrion's sister better than he does?

Tyrion lost some credibility with Dany. He wanted her to do nothing and she rejected his advice. Good thing, too. Although she lost a dragon, she would have lost Marmont, the Mountain, and Jon Snow. For my information, who was the guy who showed up on a horse with a bucket of fire in time to save Snow? Don't recall seeing that character before.

6bear6;842863314 said:

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For my information, who was the guy who showed up on a horse with a bucket of fire in time to save Snow? Don't recall seeing that character before.

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Benjen Stark (Ned Stark's brother). He rescued Bran in one of the earlier seasons too. He was a guy who started to turn into a wight but was somehow rescued (don't recall how) and lived on as an "undead" but still with his own consciousness intact.

GB54;842863311 said:

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Yeah but the whole escapade is a needless distraction for her plus it's based on another mind boggling premise- that capturing a white walker and presenting it to Cersei is going to change her. Why should we understand Tyrion's sister better than he does?

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I mean, yeah. She's probably wrong about this. But she also doesn't just want to attack King's Landing so she's hoping for another option.

6bear6;842863314 said:

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Tyrion lost some credibility with Dany. He wanted her to do nothing and she rejected his advice. Good thing, too. Although she lost a dragon, she would have lost Marmont, the Mountain, and Jon Snow. For my information, who was the guy who showed up on a horse with a bucket of fire in time to save Snow? Don't recall seeing that character before.

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The Hound ... Not the mountain (that's his brother)

Uncle Benjen saved Jon. He is the brother (now undead who still fights for the living) of Ned Stark. He was in very very early episodes and then showed up again last year to help Bran and get him to the wall. He is technically dead so he cannot cross the wall

GB54;842863305 said:

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I agree with SYCasey that time and space shouldn't matter but some of these plot points like the whole band of brothers over the wall fiasco-"Hey,guys, why don't we just do a flyover with Danerys instead"- just make me think that this is the season where all the smart men are dead and the smart women-Cersei and Danerys- are in charge.

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She didn't believe in the whole White Walker and undead thing ... Plus now some of her favorite peeps are in trouble so she didn't want to just let them die

sycasey;842863307 said:

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Yes, I think those criticisms are more fair. They have to do with character consistency and motivation, not plot logic. Though as to this question about why Dany didn't just fly the dragons in: it wasn't explicitly stated before, but she said in this episode, "You don't truly believe it until you see." I think she didn't completely believe in the White Walker story either. She was willing to send dragons on a specific rescue mission, but not necessarily on some wild goose chase.

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I love the show, but they made a mess of things the last episode. If Jon Snow and Tormund didn't experience Hardhome, I could maybe understand why they would agree to capture a wright for the weird reason of convincing Cersei. And why is Tyrion, one of my favorite characters, so crappy with his advice his season? None of his advice has worked out, and the point of sending a king beyond the wall to convince his sister that he knows is bat-**** crazy and probably would use that to set a trap anyway seems dumb beyond words. And what did Gendry say to the queen to make her run off? That they ran into some white walkers? Wasn't that the point? What did he see? Definitely not the swarms of white walkers that Jon and Tromund should have known about and that the Hound had already seen in his vision. But they send Gendry who had never even seen snow to convince everyone of the immediacy of the situation without really seeing anything? Unnecessary gap that didn't further the message or the plot. And stop with the creeping out of Arya. She used to be such a bad-ass tomboy but now is just a creepy assassin who threatens her own sister with either murder or betrayal. Don't get it. Bran needs to step up and clear some of this crap now. I love the graphics and the battles, but it wasn't the seven samurai fighting the impossible battle for honor but some key characters who just had a brain fart in agreeing to another brain fart of someone who is supposed to know things. They need to move the Arya story into something with more layers, be done with the LF crap, have some reasonable direction and wisdom in battle planning and strategy, and have some more grey area intrigue. No one seems to be playing the game or even know the rules anymore.

6bear6;842863302 said:

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So, Jon Snow, who seems to survive confrontations with the Night King, even though the dead dragged him under, must survive to the end. The Night King must die and all the walking dead with him. If you kill the King all the resuscitated dead must die with him. Will the fact that Jon Snow petted the dragon in the previous episode prevent the reanimated dragon from harming Jon? I don't think so. The surviving dragons must fight their brother to the death.

By the way, why the hell did that group of seven confront and capture one of the dead in the first place?

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Different dragons. Jon petted Drogon; vICEerion was killed and reanimated.

The further we and the showrunners get from the source material that bound and guided them for the first 5 seasons, the more the storytelling strays from Martin's style - the style that made this saga fresh and different. Forget the questions about where the chains came from, or why the Night King didn't just use those javelins on the Magnificent Seven (and their red-tunic security force) during the time it took the ice to refreeze, or why the living didn't keep breaking the ice with that cool GendryHammer to keep it from refreezing, or why dead wildlings can't use missile weapons when we know live Ygritte was awesome with a bow yada yada. The big problem is with the lazy storytelling, the JUST IN THE NICK OF TIME! bull$#!t (dragon rescue, Uncle Benjen for both Bran and Jon, Bronn saving Jaime from dragonfire, even Brienne saving Sansa and the Knights of the Vale arriving at the BoB last season) and campy dialogue that fans want to hear but Martin never would have written. The show and showrunners are in wrap-up mode now, glitzy and safe.

GB54;842863311 said:

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Yeah but the whole escapade is a needless distraction for her plus it's based on another mind boggling premise- that capturing a white walker and presenting it to Cersei is going to change her. Why should we understand Tyrion's sister better than he does?

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That's exactly what I was thinking. As if she wouldn't use the WW as she did with the High Sparrow (which backfired) or some wildfire to blow up her enemies and scorch the Earth. The evil queen will all of a sudden say - yes, I will give up my throne and bend the knee so that the rest of the world will fight death. Is she the only one with a brain?

Agree with other critics who posted before me. I can live with the timeline (not a fan of it but can live with it), but the issues I do have with the last episode are:
- why would the entire dead army march on after Drogon flew off, and then the entire army go backwards to retrieve the ice dragon?
- forget asking where the chains come from; how did they get under the icy water to even put the chains on the dragon? The earlier scenes clearly showed that the dead army either die or at least rendered useless once they fall into the icy water; did they summon the aquaman-white-walker to do this?
- how the heck did Benjen get through the entire army unscathed to rescue Jon?

I agree with others that the producers, without GRRM's source material, have caused the show to become more predictable and the writing has become lazy storytelling in this season. I'm still a huge fan of the show, but feel season 7 is a major drop-off compared to the earlier seasons.

Side note: did you notice Jon Snow's sword being awakened when Jon was climbing out of the ice water? If you didn't notice, go back and check it out. Pretty cool stuff!

Prediction: Cersei's "trap" is the dragon horn and she's going to take control of the 3rd dragon (Rhaegal?) in the season finale. This will cause all 3 sides to have one dragon each.

thanks. So many characters, so much action.

travelingbears;842863351 said:

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Agree with other critics who posted before me. I can live with the timeline (not a fan of it but can live with it), but the issues I do have with the last episode are:
- why would the entire dead army march on after Drogon flew off, and then the entire army go backwards to retrieve the ice dragon?
- forget asking where the chains come from; how did they get under the icy water to even put the chains on the dragon? The earlier scenes clearly showed that the dead army either die or at least rendered useless once they fall into the icy water; did they summon the aquaman-white-walker to do this?
- how the heck did Benjen get through the entire army unscathed to rescue Jon?

I agree with others that the producers, without GRRM's source material, have caused the show to become more predictable and the writing has become lazy storytelling in this season. I'm still a huge fan of the show, but feel season 7 is a major drop-off compared to the earlier seasons.

Side note: did you notice Jon Snow's sword being awakened when Jon was climbing out of the ice water? If you didn't notice, go back and check it out. Pretty cool stuff!

Prediction: Cersei's "trap" is the dragon horn and she's going to take control of the 3rd dragon (Rhaegal?) in the season finale. This will cause all 3 sides to have one dragon each.

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If Dany brings a dragon to a negotiation after having lost one already, she deserves to lose it, and Tyrion would be the worst hand in the history of Westeros. And I think dragon horn ship has sailed already. If she didn't use it at the last battle (instead opting to use the stupid crossbow), she's not going to use it now when, with all of the soldiers present, she might as start the mass destruction right there and then.