Did the lady with the dragons win

AlphaBear said:

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Damn!!!! 80 minute episode had me on edge the whole time.

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In that case we need more feedback about excitement levels. Was anyone firmly seated?

golden sloth said:

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I would say the Episode lived up to my lofty expectations. My one quibble is that I used my Amazon Firestick to watch and I don't know if HBOs bandwidth was put to the limit or if my TV was off but some of the scenes didn't come in clear.

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It was too dark. Couldn't see anything. Wasn't much of an episode other than the end.

People start every Game of Thrones season complaining about nothing happening in the early episodes, and then the big ones always bring it. Same here.

(I'll grant that the previous season was wobblier than usual.)

golden sloth said:

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I would say the Episode lived up to my lofty expectations. My one quibble is that I used my Amazon Firestick to watch and I don't know if HBOs bandwidth was put to the limit or if my TV was off but some of the scenes didn't come in clear.

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That was definitely for effect. That was exhausting.

Sebastabear said:

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golden sloth said:

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I would say the Episode lived up to my lofty expectations. My one quibble is that I used my Amazon Firestick to watch and I don't know if HBOs bandwidth was put to the limit or if my TV was off but some of the scenes didn't come in clear.

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That was definitely for effect. That was exhausting.

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I mean, in some cases you're not supposed to be able to see what's happening.

sycasey said:

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Sebastabear said:

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golden sloth said:

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I would say the Episode lived up to my lofty expectations. My one quibble is that I used my Amazon Firestick to watch and I don't know if HBOs bandwidth was put to the limit or if my TV was off but some of the scenes didn't come in clear.

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That was definitely for effect. That was exhausting.

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I mean, in some cases you're not supposed to be able to see what's happening.

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Yes. A lot of that was the Fog of War effect. You can't tell exactly was is happening to simulate the chaos of battle. Basically the same experience as watching the Cheez-It Bowl.

Sebastabear said:

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sycasey said:

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Sebastabear said:

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golden sloth said:

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I would say the Episode lived up to my lofty expectations. My one quibble is that I used my Amazon Firestick to watch and I don't know if HBOs bandwidth was put to the limit or if my TV was off but some of the scenes didn't come in clear.

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That was definitely for effect. That was exhausting.

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I mean, in some cases you're not supposed to be able to see what's happening.

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Yes. A lot of that was the Fog of War effect. You can't tell exactly was is happening to simulate the chaos of battle. Basically the same experience as watching the Cheez-It Bowl.

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Yep. And sometimes movies (or epic TV shows) can overuse that effect. Sometimes I thought this episode did, but I've seen worse. The major story beats weren't hard to follow.

AlphaBear said:

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Damn!!!! 80 minute episode had me on edge the whole time.

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82

Everything you expected to happen, happens.

As far as I could tell, really couldn't see much.

Actually I take that back, I was surprised by how many ppl survive.

I haven't started reading all the reviews, but this one pretty much summarized my thoughts.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/tv.avclub.com/game-of-thrones-suffers-the-fog-of-war-in-the-battle-ag-1834367999/amp

ducky23 said:

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Everything you expected to happen, happens.

As far as I could tell, really couldn't see much.

Actually I take that back, I was surprised by how many ppl survive.

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All the ones you actually care about, though I'm sure some people are broken up about the one who killed the giant. But for the most part, the people who get a lot of chapters in the book are all still in play.

Then again, who knows. Maybe some of them died in the dark and I just don't know it yet.

ducky23 said:

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Everything you expected to happen, happens.

As far as I could tell, really couldn't see much.

Actually I take that back, I was surprised by how many ppl survive.

I haven't started reading all the reviews, but this one pretty much summarized my thoughts.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/tv.avclub.com/game-of-thrones-suffers-the-fog-of-war-in-the-battle-ag-1834367999/amp

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I watched the episode late, and have just been scrolling through Twitter, and I've noticed how many people are complaining about how dark it was and they couldnt' see anything...https://slate.com/culture/2019/04/game-of-thrones-long-night-dark-cinematography-twitter-complaints.html

I'm amazed because I thought it was fine, the lighting that is. But maybe my TV was different (settings, perhaps?)

I was surprised by how many survived, too. I think it would've been helpful if they killed a significant (speaking) character (unless you think Theon is significant).

But they've got to fill all those minutes with actors, so maybe it's not that surprising.

My dream was to have everybody die and we spend the remainder of the series getting to know the army of the dead and realize they have legitimate gripes.

okaydo said:

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ducky23 said:

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Everything you expected to happen, happens.

As far as I could tell, really couldn't see much.

Actually I take that back, I was surprised by how many ppl survive.

I haven't started reading all the reviews, but this one pretty much summarized my thoughts.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/tv.avclub.com/game-of-thrones-suffers-the-fog-of-war-in-the-battle-ag-1834367999/amp

---

I watched the episode late, and have just been scrolling through Twitter, and I've noticed how many people are complaining about how dark it was and they couldnt' see anything...https://slate.com/culture/2019/04/game-of-thrones-long-night-dark-cinematography-twitter-complaints.html

I'm amazed because I thought it was fine, the lighting that is. But maybe my TV was different (settings, perhaps?)

I was surprised by how many survived, too. I think it would've been helpful if they killed a significant (speaking) character (unless you think Theon is significant).

But they've got to fill all those minutes with actors, so maybe it's not that surprising.

My dream was to have everybody die and we spend the remainder of the series getting to know the army of the dead and realize they have legitimate gripes.

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*spoilers* There were a ton of problems with this episode, but yeah, you touched on one of them.

The problem is not necessarily that all of the main characters survive. The problem is that they were literally the only ones to were shown to survive. There was that one scene where it showed like 5 people still alive fighting the entire army of the dead, and all 5 were major characters. I mean, cmon man. You couldn't show even one random extra?

I guess it all comes down to why you watch GOT. If you watch it just to be entertained for an hour, then I guess it was fine.

But if you watch GOT cause it's different than the rest of the formulaic crap out there, then you have to be disappointed. To me, killing you're only major actor at the time (Sean bean) in the first season is what makes GOT. The red wedding is what makes GOt. They played this episode super safe. Nothing was surprising. (Even the Arya thing has been predicted for years). Nothing was groundbreaking. Might as well go see a marvel movie.

ducky23 said:

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okaydo said:

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ducky23 said:

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Everything you expected to happen, happens.

As far as I could tell, really couldn't see much.

Actually I take that back, I was surprised by how many ppl survive.

I haven't started reading all the reviews, but this one pretty much summarized my thoughts.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/tv.avclub.com/game-of-thrones-suffers-the-fog-of-war-in-the-battle-ag-1834367999/amp

---

I watched the episode late, and have just been scrolling through Twitter, and I've noticed how many people are complaining about how dark it was and they couldnt' see anything...https://slate.com/culture/2019/04/game-of-thrones-long-night-dark-cinematography-twitter-complaints.html

I'm amazed because I thought it was fine, the lighting that is. But maybe my TV was different (settings, perhaps?)

I was surprised by how many survived, too. I think it would've been helpful if they killed a significant (speaking) character (unless you think Theon is significant).

But they've got to fill all those minutes with actors, so maybe it's not that surprising.

My dream was to have everybody die and we spend the remainder of the series getting to know the army of the dead and realize they have legitimate gripes.

---

*spoilers* There were a ton of problems with this episode, but yeah, you touched on one of them.

The problem is not necessarily that all of the main characters survive. The problem is that they were literally the only ones to were shown to survive. There was that one scene where it showed like 5 people still alive fighting the entire army of the dead, and all 5 were major characters. I mean, cmon man. You couldn't show even one random extra?

I guess it all comes down to why you watch GOT. If you watch it just to be entertained for an hour, then I guess it was fine.

But if you watch GOT cause it's different than the rest of the formulaic crap out there, then you have to be disappointed. To me, killing you're only major actor at the time (Sean bean) in the first season is what makes GOT. The red wedding is what makes GOt. They played this episode super safe. Nothing was surprising. (Even the Arya thing has been predicted for years). Nothing was groundbreaking. Might as well go see a marvel movie.

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For the record: I liked the episode and had no problem with the cinematography.

The problem is that GoT was the show that was unafraid to kill major characters. And so that has weighed it down and weighed down the perception of the show.

I disagree on the Arya thing. It was a "we expected Jon Snow or Daenerys or somebody expected to do it, but when Arya did it, it made sense." There were a lot of people, like Ezra below, who totally forget about Arya or maybe didn't pay close atteniton.

It would've felt unsatisfying if somebody like Bran or Brienne or Sam or Melisandre (or anybody who hasn't been a key part of the show) killed the Night King. (Yeah, Bran is a key part of the show, but he was absent for a whole season!)

Arya going all Ross Bowers flying through the air for the score!

Interesting that several of the popular "theories" were all wrong: that the dead Starks in the crypt would come alive and that Bran is the Night King.

Once again, Jon Snow shows his poor war leader chops and has to get bailed out again by his younger sister, just like at the Battle of the B*stards. But hey, at least he kept his consecutive close-quarters combat win streak alive and is now approximately 12,000-0, which is awfully impressive.

They're gonna have one hell of a clean up job in Winterfell today.

lol - i guess it is technically tomorrow.

Like may things zombie I don't like how people are totally surrounded at close quarters and somehow make their way out, or how zombies at time have super speed and take people out and at others are like dumb beasts, the inconsistency and implaussibility of the combat makes me groan.

Overall enjoyed the episode still. I don't mind the filler episodes, as a book reader I'm patient enough and enjoy the background.

From the intro I thought we were going to get a ridiculously long one shot tracking scene but then it stopped suddenly and I couldn't really figure out what it was they were trying to achieve by tracking anyways, felt like poor direction.

After you view Sunday's episode, this is a good read:

6 winners and 6 losers from Game of Thrones' biggest battle yet

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/4/29/18522048/game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-3-recap-the-long-night-winners-losers

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/4/28/18522047/arya-stark-long-night-king-death

IMO, expecting a show like this to remain "surprising" all the way to the end is unreasonable. At some point you need to resolve things in a dramatically satisfying way, which means you're going to have to do stuff that people have predicted would happen. I don't see any way around that. GRRM might have done it differently, but eventually he would have done it.

Even so, I think Arya being the one to deliver the final blow to the Night King WAS something of a surprise. Most people expected it would be Jon, because of the prophecy stuff surrounding him. I also wouldn't call this "unearned," since as this episode did a good job of calling back, there was ALSO some prophecy stuff surrounding her (just not as foregrounded), and we DID spend a lot of time watching her become a master assassin. I'm not even bothered by questions like, "How did she slip by the rest of the Night King's army?" They showed us a long sequence of her being quiet and stealthy and slipping past everyone's notice, as per her training. That's how she did it.

I'm also not very moved by complaints like: "Not enough people died." For one thing, don't be mad that your own predictions about this episode's body count were wrong (which kind of invalidates your own claims about wanting "unpredictability" anyway), and for another: this is actually only the halfway point of the season. I would reserve judgment until the whole thing is done. Maybe the point is that the "Game of Thrones" doesn't end just because you killed the monster and defeated his army.

TheSouseFamily said:

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Interesting that several of the popular "theories" were all wrong: that the dead Starks in the crypt would come alive and that Bran is the Night King.

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Well, the crypt part did happen.

The one complaint I kind of agree with is that we didn't learn anything new about the Night King or what he wanted. I thought we'd get more of his history before they bumped him off.

Though I suppose there is still time for more discoveries to happen.

sycasey said:

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IMO, expecting a show like this to remain "surprising" all the way to the end is unreasonable. At some point you need to resolve things in a dramatically satisfying way, which means you're going to have to do stuff that people have predicted would happen. I don't see any way around that. GRRM might have done it differently, but eventually he would have done it.

Even so, I think Arya being the one to deliver the final blow to the Night King WAS something of a surprise. Most people expected it would be Jon, because of the prophecy stuff surrounding him. I also wouldn't call this "unearned," since as this episode did a good job of calling back, there was ALSO some prophecy stuff surrounding her (just not as foregrounded), and we DID spend a lot of time watching her become a master assassin. I'm not even bothered by questions like, "How did she slip by the rest of the Night King's army?" They showed us a long sequence of her being quiet and stealthy and slipping past everyone's notice, as per her training. That's how she did it.

I'm also not very moved by complaints like: "Not enough people died." For one thing, don't be mad that your own predictions about this episode's body count were wrong (which kind of invalidates your own claims about wanting "unpredictability" anyway), and for another: this is actually only the halfway point of the season. I would reserve judgment until the whole thing is done. Maybe the point is that the "Game of Thrones" doesn't end just because you killed the monster and defeated his army.

---

Yeah....there aren't many surprises. The Arya thing was a surprise, a great surprise. (Even though we should've seeen it coming since GRRM's whole thing is subverting expectations.)

Maisie Williams is roughly the same age as nearly every QB in the AFC East*, yet she and Arya are treated like a little girl. There was some outrage last week when she had sex, some of it because people never assumed the actress and the character would ever grow up -- even though the actress is 1 year younger than Sophie Turner, who filmed her GOT sex (rape) scene like 5 years ago. Maybe it's because Arya is short.

(*Maisie Williams-Born in 1997. Sam Darnold and Josh Rosen-Born in 1997. Josh Allen-Born in 1996.)

The same thing with Arya killing The Night King. It made absolute sense. But many (including me) didn't really think of her in that way even though she's literally been preparing for this the whole series. We underestimated her. And much of the audience still views her as a child.

sycasey said:

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TheSouseFamily said:

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Interesting that several of the popular "theories" were all wrong: that the dead Starks in the crypt would come alive and that Bran is the Night King.

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Well, the crypt part did happen.

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I thought that was a bit confusing. Clearly, the dead was coming through the walls but it wasn't clear to me if they were crypt bodies coming to life or wights breaching the walls from outside. If they were in fact dead Starks from the crypts, I would have expected to see Ned or some of the dead Starks we already know (which seemed to be what many were speculating about).

TheSouseFamily said:

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sycasey said:

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TheSouseFamily said:

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Interesting that several of the popular "theories" were all wrong: that the dead Starks in the crypt would come alive and that Bran is the Night King.

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Well, the crypt part did happen.

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I thought that was a bit confusing. Clearly, the dead was coming through the walls but it wasn't clear to me if they were crypt bodies coming to life or wights breaching the walls from outside. If they were in fact dead Starks from the crypts, I would have expected to see Ned or some of the dead Starks we already know (which seemed to be what many were speculating about).

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Oh yeah, they didn't go that far. But I'm pretty sure those were the dead bodies in the crypt being reanimated.

okaydo said:

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sycasey said:

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IMO, expecting a show like this to remain "surprising" all the way to the end is unreasonable. At some point you need to resolve things in a dramatically satisfying way, which means you're going to have to do stuff that people have predicted would happen. I don't see any way around that. GRRM might have done it differently, but eventually he would have done it.

Even so, I think Arya being the one to deliver the final blow to the Night King WAS something of a surprise. Most people expected it would be Jon, because of the prophecy stuff surrounding him. I also wouldn't call this "unearned," since as this episode did a good job of calling back, there was ALSO some prophecy stuff surrounding her (just not as foregrounded), and we DID spend a lot of time watching her become a master assassin. I'm not even bothered by questions like, "How did she slip by the rest of the Night King's army?" They showed us a long sequence of her being quiet and stealthy and slipping past everyone's notice, as per her training. That's how she did it.

I'm also not very moved by complaints like: "Not enough people died." For one thing, don't be mad that your own predictions about this episode's body count were wrong (which kind of invalidates your own claims about wanting "unpredictability" anyway), and for another: this is actually only the halfway point of the season. I would reserve judgment until the whole thing is done. Maybe the point is that the "Game of Thrones" doesn't end just because you killed the monster and defeated his army.

---

Yeah....there aren't many surprises. The Arya thing was a surprise, a great surprise. (Even though we should've seeen it coming since GRRM's whole thing is subverting expectations.)

Maisie Williams is roughly the same age as nearly every QB in the AFC East*, yet she and Arya are treated like a little girl. There was some outrage last week when she had sex, some of it because people never assumed the actress and the character would ever grow up -- even though the actress is 1 year younger than Sophie Turner, who filmed her GOT sex (rape) scene like 5 years ago. Maybe it's because Arya is short.

(*Maisie Williams-Born in 1997. Sam Darnold and Josh Rosen-Born in 1997. Josh Allen-Born in 1996.)

The same thing with Arya killing The Night King. It made absolute sense. But many (including me) didn't really think of her in that way even though she's literally been preparing for this the whole series. We underestimated her. And much of the audience still views her as a child.

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She just has a baby face and is short, which makes people think she's still a child. Logically, there's no way she could be after 8 seasons.

It does work very well thematically, though. That's the whole point: Arya was underestimated because she was small and was not leading an army. The Night King was worried about Jon and the dragons, not about her.

sycasey said:

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IMO, expecting a show like this to remain "surprising" all the way to the end is unreasonable. At some point you need to resolve things in a dramatically satisfying way, which means you're going to have to do stuff that people have predicted would happen. I don't see any way around that. GRRM might have done it differently, but eventually he would have done it.

Even so, I think Arya being the one to deliver the final blow to the Night King WAS something of a surprise. Most people expected it would be Jon, because of the prophecy stuff surrounding him. I also wouldn't call this "unearned," since as this episode did a good job of calling back, there was ALSO some prophecy stuff surrounding her (just not as foregrounded), and we DID spend a lot of time watching her become a master assassin. I'm not even bothered by questions like, "How did she slip by the rest of the Night King's army?" They showed us a long sequence of her being quiet and stealthy and slipping past everyone's notice, as per her training. That's how she did it.

---

I'm glad you brought this up, because how they wrote the whole Arya thing is a perfect example of how the ending should've been surprising, but thru poor writing, the ending wasn't surprising at all.

First they have a scene in the very beginning where melisandre and Arya stare at each other for a long time. Ok it makes sense why Arya stares at Melisandre. You could say it's because Arya recognizes her from before, she's the one who kidnapped her blacksmith boyfriend, blah blah blah. But why is Melisandre staring at Arya so intently? Right there, it's pretty clear Melisandre thinks Arya is special. And everyone knows all Melisandre's character does the entire series is look for the one to fulfill her prophecy. So I'm sure I wasn't the only one who was thinking, hmmm maybe Arya is the one to kill the night king.

But then, the later scene where Beric dies, the writers do everything in their power to write in big bold letters, Arya is the one. First she says beric can finally die cause he did what the lord of light wanted (sacrifice himself to save Arya). Then Melisandre says the whole brown eyes, BLUE eyes, green eyes thing. And then off Arya goes. Gee, wonder where she's going.

Then they show a whole bunch of battle scenes with other people, except Arya. And during that whole time you're thinking, ok when is Arya going to come in and save the day. So when it happens it's not a surprise.

Now imagine if they had cut the scene with Arya and Melisandre staring at each other. And let's say they had cut the dialogue between Melisandre and Arya when beric dies. I think even without Melisandre directly saying it, most viewers would figure out that the reason he was brought back to life 6 times was to save Arya. Good writing is not always about explaining everything to the viewer. It's about allowing the viewer to figure it out themselves.

Same with the eyes dialogue. If you edit out that whole part, think about how much better and more surprising the ending is. Plus once people have seen the episode, they can go back and say, "oh yeah, Melisandre said that whole thing about the eyes back in season 3 or whatever. Wow, it all makes sense now." But the writers robbed us of figuring that out ourselves as well. And they definitely robbed us of the surprise of Arya coming in from out of nowhere to kill the night king.

Compare that to the red wedding. There was some foreshadowing of the red wedding, but all pretty obscure. The clearest foreshadowing was the playing of the rains of castamere. But even with that, you didn't have some character say "oh that's weird, why are they playing rains of castamere, isn't that a Lannister song?" Nope. None of that. The audience is left to figure out the significance themselves.

In my opinion, good writing shouldn't have to spell out everything for the audience. And it shouldn't cater to the lowest denominator. That's where GOT has changed from earlier seasons. It's kinda like the difference when sorkin left the west wing. It was the same characters and same story, but the writing was just not as intelligent.

ducky23 said:

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sycasey said:

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IMO, expecting a show like this to remain "surprising" all the way to the end is unreasonable. At some point you need to resolve things in a dramatically satisfying way, which means you're going to have to do stuff that people have predicted would happen. I don't see any way around that. GRRM might have done it differently, but eventually he would have done it.

Even so, I think Arya being the one to deliver the final blow to the Night King WAS something of a surprise. Most people expected it would be Jon, because of the prophecy stuff surrounding him. I also wouldn't call this "unearned," since as this episode did a good job of calling back, there was ALSO some prophecy stuff surrounding her (just not as foregrounded), and we DID spend a lot of time watching her become a master assassin. I'm not even bothered by questions like, "How did she slip by the rest of the Night King's army?" They showed us a long sequence of her being quiet and stealthy and slipping past everyone's notice, as per her training. That's how she did it.

---

I'm glad you brought this up, because how they wrote the whole Arya thing is a perfect example of how the ending should've been surprising, but thru poor writing, the ending wasn't surprising at all.

First they have a scene in the very beginning where melisandre and Arya stare at each other for a long time. Ok it makes sense why Arya stares at Melisandre. You could say it's because Arya recognizes her from before, she's the one who kidnapped her blacksmith boyfriend, blah blah blah. But why is Melisandre staring at Arya so intently? Right there, it's pretty clear Melisandre thinks Arya is special. And everyone knows all Melisandre's character does the entire series is look for the one to fulfill her prophecy. So I'm sure I wasn't the only one who was thinking, hmmm maybe Arya is the one to kill the night king.

But then, the later scene where Beric dies, the writers do everything in their power to write in big bold letters, Arya is the one. First she says beric can finally die cause he did what the lord of light wanted (sacrifice himself to save Arya). Then Melisandre says the whole brown eyes, BLUE eyes, green eyes thing. And then off Arya goes. Gee, wonder where she's going.

Then they show a whole bunch of battle scenes with other people, except Arya. And during that whole time you're thinking, ok when is Arya going to come in and save the day. So when it happens it's not a surprise.

Now imagine if they had cut the scene with Arya and Melisandre staring at each other. And let's say they had cut the dialogue between Melisandre and Arya when beric dies. I think even without Melisandre directly saying it, most viewers would figure out that the reason he was brought back to life 6 times was to save Arya. Good writing is not always about explaining everything to the viewer. It's about allowing the viewer to figure it out themselves.

Same with the eyes dialogue. If you edit out that whole part, think about how much better and more surprising the ending is. Plus once people have seen the episode, they can go back and say, "oh yeah, Melisandre said that whole thing about the eyes back in season 3 or whatever. Wow, it all makes sense now." But the writers robbed us of figuring that out ourselves as well. And they definitely robbed us of the surprise of Arya coming in from out of nowhere to kill the night king.

In my opinion, good writing shouldn't have to spell out everything for the audience. And it shouldn't cater to the lowest denominator. That's where GOT has changed from earlier seasons. It's kinda like the difference when sorkin left the west wing. It was the same characters and same story, but the writing was just not as intelligent.

---

And yet, you still had people complaining that the Arya kill was "unearned" and didn't make sense. The show can't win.

Personally, I did not think this ending was obvious, precisely because the show has a history of killing off major characters when you think they're about to win. More than once they have directed the audience to think that someone would be the hero and then they weren't. To me all possibilities were on the table, so I found the moment very satisfying.

sycasey said:

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ducky23 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

IMO, expecting a show like this to remain "surprising" all the way to the end is unreasonable. At some point you need to resolve things in a dramatically satisfying way, which means you're going to have to do stuff that people have predicted would happen. I don't see any way around that. GRRM might have done it differently, but eventually he would have done it.

Even so, I think Arya being the one to deliver the final blow to the Night King WAS something of a surprise. Most people expected it would be Jon, because of the prophecy stuff surrounding him. I also wouldn't call this "unearned," since as this episode did a good job of calling back, there was ALSO some prophecy stuff surrounding her (just not as foregrounded), and we DID spend a lot of time watching her become a master assassin. I'm not even bothered by questions like, "How did she slip by the rest of the Night King's army?" They showed us a long sequence of her being quiet and stealthy and slipping past everyone's notice, as per her training. That's how she did it.

---

I'm glad you brought this up, because how they wrote the whole Arya thing is a perfect example of how the ending should've been surprising, but thru poor writing, the ending wasn't surprising at all.

First they have a scene in the very beginning where melisandre and Arya stare at each other for a long time. Ok it makes sense why Arya stares at Melisandre. You could say it's because Arya recognizes her from before, she's the one who kidnapped her blacksmith boyfriend, blah blah blah. But why is Melisandre staring at Arya so intently? Right there, it's pretty clear Melisandre thinks Arya is special. And everyone knows all Melisandre's character does the entire series is look for the one to fulfill her prophecy. So I'm sure I wasn't the only one who was thinking, hmmm maybe Arya is the one to kill the night king.

But then, the later scene where Beric dies, the writers do everything in their power to write in big bold letters, Arya is the one. First she says beric can finally die cause he did what the lord of light wanted (sacrifice himself to save Arya). Then Melisandre says the whole brown eyes, BLUE eyes, green eyes thing. And then off Arya goes. Gee, wonder where she's going.

Then they show a whole bunch of battle scenes with other people, except Arya. And during that whole time you're thinking, ok when is Arya going to come in and save the day. So when it happens it's not a surprise.

Now imagine if they had cut the scene with Arya and Melisandre staring at each other. And let's say they had cut the dialogue between Melisandre and Arya when beric dies. I think even without Melisandre directly saying it, most viewers would figure out that the reason he was brought back to life 6 times was to save Arya. Good writing is not always about explaining everything to the viewer. It's about allowing the viewer to figure it out themselves.

Same with the eyes dialogue. If you edit out that whole part, think about how much better and more surprising the ending is. Plus once people have seen the episode, they can go back and say, "oh yeah, Melisandre said that whole thing about the eyes back in season 3 or whatever. Wow, it all makes sense now." But the writers robbed us of figuring that out ourselves as well. And they definitely robbed us of the surprise of Arya coming in from out of nowhere to kill the night king.

In my opinion, good writing shouldn't have to spell out everything for the audience. And it shouldn't cater to the lowest denominator. That's where GOT has changed from earlier seasons. It's kinda like the difference when sorkin left the west wing. It was the same characters and same story, but the writing was just not as intelligent.

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And yet, you still had people complaining that the Arya kill was "unearned" and didn't make sense. The show can't win.

Personally, I did not think this ending was obvious, precisely because the show has a history of killing off major characters when you think they're about to win. More than once they have directed the audience to think that someone would be the hero and then they weren't. To me all possibilities were on the table, so I found the moment very satisfying.

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Exactly. If they don't build it up, it's "unearned" and comes out of nowhere. I understand that people watch a show like this very differently, but sometimes I think it helps to turn your brain off when watching. It ruins the experience, imo, if you're constantly wondering what will happen net. I wasn't consumed with where Arya was or when she was going to kill the Night King. I was enjoying the show. When she ran out of the room, I actually thought she was going to flee Winterfell, the Wights would win the battle, and Arya would lead the humans successfully against the Wights later in the season. When she flew in, I was surprised and thought it was great.

GMP said:

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sycasey said:

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ducky23 said:

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sycasey said:

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IMO, expecting a show like this to remain "surprising" all the way to the end is unreasonable. At some point you need to resolve things in a dramatically satisfying way, which means you're going to have to do stuff that people have predicted would happen. I don't see any way around that. GRRM might have done it differently, but eventually he would have done it.

Even so, I think Arya being the one to deliver the final blow to the Night King WAS something of a surprise. Most people expected it would be Jon, because of the prophecy stuff surrounding him. I also wouldn't call this "unearned," since as this episode did a good job of calling back, there was ALSO some prophecy stuff surrounding her (just not as foregrounded), and we DID spend a lot of time watching her become a master assassin. I'm not even bothered by questions like, "How did she slip by the rest of the Night King's army?" They showed us a long sequence of her being quiet and stealthy and slipping past everyone's notice, as per her training. That's how she did it.

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I'm glad you brought this up, because how they wrote the whole Arya thing is a perfect example of how the ending should've been surprising, but thru poor writing, the ending wasn't surprising at all.

First they have a scene in the very beginning where melisandre and Arya stare at each other for a long time. Ok it makes sense why Arya stares at Melisandre. You could say it's because Arya recognizes her from before, she's the one who kidnapped her blacksmith boyfriend, blah blah blah. But why is Melisandre staring at Arya so intently? Right there, it's pretty clear Melisandre thinks Arya is special. And everyone knows all Melisandre's character does the entire series is look for the one to fulfill her prophecy. So I'm sure I wasn't the only one who was thinking, hmmm maybe Arya is the one to kill the night king.

But then, the later scene where Beric dies, the writers do everything in their power to write in big bold letters, Arya is the one. First she says beric can finally die cause he did what the lord of light wanted (sacrifice himself to save Arya). Then Melisandre says the whole brown eyes, BLUE eyes, green eyes thing. And then off Arya goes. Gee, wonder where she's going.

Then they show a whole bunch of battle scenes with other people, except Arya. And during that whole time you're thinking, ok when is Arya going to come in and save the day. So when it happens it's not a surprise.

Now imagine if they had cut the scene with Arya and Melisandre staring at each other. And let's say they had cut the dialogue between Melisandre and Arya when beric dies. I think even without Melisandre directly saying it, most viewers would figure out that the reason he was brought back to life 6 times was to save Arya. Good writing is not always about explaining everything to the viewer. It's about allowing the viewer to figure it out themselves.

Same with the eyes dialogue. If you edit out that whole part, think about how much better and more surprising the ending is. Plus once people have seen the episode, they can go back and say, "oh yeah, Melisandre said that whole thing about the eyes back in season 3 or whatever. Wow, it all makes sense now." But the writers robbed us of figuring that out ourselves as well. And they definitely robbed us of the surprise of Arya coming in from out of nowhere to kill the night king.

In my opinion, good writing shouldn't have to spell out everything for the audience. And it shouldn't cater to the lowest denominator. That's where GOT has changed from earlier seasons. It's kinda like the difference when sorkin left the west wing. It was the same characters and same story, but the writing was just not as intelligent.

---

And yet, you still had people complaining that the Arya kill was "unearned" and didn't make sense. The show can't win.

Personally, I did not think this ending was obvious, precisely because the show has a history of killing off major characters when you think they're about to win. More than once they have directed the audience to think that someone would be the hero and then they weren't. To me all possibilities were on the table, so I found the moment very satisfying.

---

Exactly. If they don't build it up, it's "unearned" and comes out of nowhere. I understand that people watch a show like this very differently, but sometimes I think it helps to turn your brain off when watching. It ruins the experience, imo, if you're constantly wondering what will happen net. I wasn't consumed with where Arya was or when she was going to kill the Night King. I was enjoying the show. When she ran out of the room, I actually thought she was going to flee Winterfell, the Wights would win the battle, and Arya would lead the humans successfully against the Wights later in the season. When she flew in, I was surprised and thought it was great.

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There's a double-edged sword to a show like this becoming very popular and having fans obsess over it. On the one hand, it's great that they get all this engagement and it helps drive the show's ratings. On the other hand, people spend a lot of time obsessing over the details and start trying to "outsmart" the show. IMO, that's not a good way to watch drama. It's not good because it outsmarted you, it's good because it resolved its themes and character arcs well, reached that emotional catharsis. Dramatic stories are not logic puzzles. Sometimes the "right" ending is the predictable one.

GMP said:

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sycasey said:

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ducky23 said:

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sycasey said:

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IMO, expecting a show like this to remain "surprising" all the way to the end is unreasonable. At some point you need to resolve things in a dramatically satisfying way, which means you're going to have to do stuff that people have predicted would happen. I don't see any way around that. GRRM might have done it differently, but eventually he would have done it.

Even so, I think Arya being the one to deliver the final blow to the Night King WAS something of a surprise. Most people expected it would be Jon, because of the prophecy stuff surrounding him. I also wouldn't call this "unearned," since as this episode did a good job of calling back, there was ALSO some prophecy stuff surrounding her (just not as foregrounded), and we DID spend a lot of time watching her become a master assassin. I'm not even bothered by questions like, "How did she slip by the rest of the Night King's army?" They showed us a long sequence of her being quiet and stealthy and slipping past everyone's notice, as per her training. That's how she did it.

---

I'm glad you brought this up, because how they wrote the whole Arya thing is a perfect example of how the ending should've been surprising, but thru poor writing, the ending wasn't surprising at all.

First they have a scene in the very beginning where melisandre and Arya stare at each other for a long time. Ok it makes sense why Arya stares at Melisandre. You could say it's because Arya recognizes her from before, she's the one who kidnapped her blacksmith boyfriend, blah blah blah. But why is Melisandre staring at Arya so intently? Right there, it's pretty clear Melisandre thinks Arya is special. And everyone knows all Melisandre's character does the entire series is look for the one to fulfill her prophecy. So I'm sure I wasn't the only one who was thinking, hmmm maybe Arya is the one to kill the night king.

But then, the later scene where Beric dies, the writers do everything in their power to write in big bold letters, Arya is the one. First she says beric can finally die cause he did what the lord of light wanted (sacrifice himself to save Arya). Then Melisandre says the whole brown eyes, BLUE eyes, green eyes thing. And then off Arya goes. Gee, wonder where she's going.

Then they show a whole bunch of battle scenes with other people, except Arya. And during that whole time you're thinking, ok when is Arya going to come in and save the day. So when it happens it's not a surprise.

Now imagine if they had cut the scene with Arya and Melisandre staring at each other. And let's say they had cut the dialogue between Melisandre and Arya when beric dies. I think even without Melisandre directly saying it, most viewers would figure out that the reason he was brought back to life 6 times was to save Arya. Good writing is not always about explaining everything to the viewer. It's about allowing the viewer to figure it out themselves.

Same with the eyes dialogue. If you edit out that whole part, think about how much better and more surprising the ending is. Plus once people have seen the episode, they can go back and say, "oh yeah, Melisandre said that whole thing about the eyes back in season 3 or whatever. Wow, it all makes sense now." But the writers robbed us of figuring that out ourselves as well. And they definitely robbed us of the surprise of Arya coming in from out of nowhere to kill the night king.

In my opinion, good writing shouldn't have to spell out everything for the audience. And it shouldn't cater to the lowest denominator. That's where GOT has changed from earlier seasons. It's kinda like the difference when sorkin left the west wing. It was the same characters and same story, but the writing was just not as intelligent.

---

And yet, you still had people complaining that the Arya kill was "unearned" and didn't make sense. The show can't win.

Personally, I did not think this ending was obvious, precisely because the show has a history of killing off major characters when you think they're about to win. More than once they have directed the audience to think that someone would be the hero and then they weren't. To me all possibilities were on the table, so I found the moment very satisfying.

---

Exactly. If they don't build it up, it's "unearned" and comes out of nowhere.

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Again I'm not against building it up. I'm against doing it so obviously. Melisandre staring at Arya in the early scene and then beric dying to save Arya was enough. You don't need Melisandre spelling it out for everyone. I'm sorry, if you can't figure it out from just beric dying you're clearly not paying attention at all. Nearly every previous episode, beric says something to the effect of "gee I wonder why I'm still alive?" Then he dies while saving Arya. How clear do you want it?

The part about it being unearned is silly too. The only people who would say that are people not paying attention at all. There's plenty in previous episodes to support Arya being the one (without Melisandre spelling it out) This ain't Star Wars. Arya doesn't just pick up a lightsaber without plenty of training.

And the thing about it coming out of nowhere, I'll again come back to the red wedding (which comes out of nowhere). The only foreshadowing are some obscure references to the red wedding in previous episodes and the playing of the rains of castamere. All of which the audience had to FIGURE out themselves

It all comes down to what you expect from GOT. Is it just an hour of entertainment or do you expect more? I watch enough crap that entertains me.

ducky23 said:

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GMP said:

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Exactly. If they don't build it up, it's "unearned" and comes out of nowhere.

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Again I'm not against building it up. I'm against doing it so obviously. Melisandre staring at Arya in the early scene and then beric dying to save Arya was enough. You don't need Melisandre spelling it out for everyone. I'm sorry, if you can't figure it out from just beric dying you're clearly not paying attention at all. Nearly every previous episode, beric says something to the effect of "gee I wonder why I'm still alive?" Then he dies while saving Arya. How clear do you want it?

The part about it being unearned is silly too. The only people who would say that are people not paying attention at all. There's plenty in previous episodes to support Arya being the one (without Melisandre spelling it out) This ain't Star Wars. Arya doesn't just pick up a lightsaber without plenty of training.

And the thing about it coming out of nowhere, I'll again come back to the red wedding (which comes out of nowhere). The only foreshadowing are some obscure references to the red wedding in previous episodes and the playing of the rains of castamere. All of which the audience had to FIGURE out themselves

It all comes down to what you expect from GOT. Is it just an hour of entertainment or do you expect more? I watch enough crap that entertains me.

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I think your level of attention to the details of the story line are far greater than that of most people. For example, I had to ask if Arya and Melisandre had met before, I forgot about those two or three episodes their paths crossed 4 years ago.

I its a testament to the quality of the show that they have widened the fan base to such an extent that there will always be a subsection of that fan base is critiquing with whatever decision they make (particularly, for a fantasy drama on a subscription network).

ducky23 said:

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okaydo said:

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ducky23 said:

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Everything you expected to happen, happens.

As far as I could tell, really couldn't see much.

Actually I take that back, I was surprised by how many ppl survive.

I haven't started reading all the reviews, but this one pretty much summarized my thoughts.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/tv.avclub.com/game-of-thrones-suffers-the-fog-of-war-in-the-battle-ag-1834367999/amp

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I watched the episode late, and have just been scrolling through Twitter, and I've noticed how many people are complaining about how dark it was and they couldnt' see anything...https://slate.com/culture/2019/04/game-of-thrones-long-night-dark-cinematography-twitter-complaints.html

I'm amazed because I thought it was fine, the lighting that is. But maybe my TV was different (settings, perhaps?)

I was surprised by how many survived, too. I think it would've been helpful if they killed a significant (speaking) character (unless you think Theon is significant).

But they've got to fill all those minutes with actors, so maybe it's not that surprising.

My dream was to have everybody die and we spend the remainder of the series getting to know the army of the dead and realize they have legitimate gripes.

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*spoilers* There were a ton of problems with this episode, but yeah, you touched on one of them.

The problem is not necessarily that all of the main characters survive. The problem is that they were literally the only ones to were shown to survive. There was that one scene where it showed like 5 people still alive fighting the entire army of the dead, and all 5 were major characters. I mean, cmon man. You couldn't show even one random extra?

I guess it all comes down to why you watch GOT. If you watch it just to be entertained for an hour, then I guess it was fine.

But if you watch GOT cause it's different than the rest of the formulaic crap out there, then you have to be disappointed. To me, killing you're only major actor at the time (Sean bean) in the first season is what makes GOT. The red wedding is what makes GOt. They played this episode super safe. Nothing was surprising. (Even the Arya thing has been predicted for years). Nothing was groundbreaking. Might as well go see a marvel movie.

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Speaking of which, as someone who didn't get why people thought the Avengers was so great or why the Infinity War was so popular, Endgame is a really good film. They'll never get that many stars in one movie again.

golden sloth said:

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I think your level of attention to the details of the story line are far greater than that of most people. For example, I had to ask if Arya and Melisandre had met before, I forgot about those two or three episodes their paths crossed 4 years ago.

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Most people don't even know most of the characters' names. They can still follow the story because they recognize the actors, but that's it.

In most corners I think they're still calling Daenerys "Khaleesi," because that was her title for a while and everyone called her that in the early seasons. If you start talking about "Daenerys" or "Dany" then they won't know who that is.