TheSouseFamily said:

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Tormund Giantsbane looks like a fun guy to toss a few back with. Especially if served in a horn.

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Tormund: We have to celebrate the victory [by pounding a horn of ale]!

Jon: Vomiting is not celebrating

Tormund: Yes it is

Savage

calumnus said:

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bearister said:

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That bad boy went down faster than a Boeing 737 MAX.

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Second shot right in the neck? In the neck, in the neck? At that height and distance? With no recoil?

Again, circle around and attack the ships from behind.

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elementary stuff like this is beyond the attention of the writers and producers at this point. They have a series to wrap up, I guess.

They're swaying the odds back in Cersei's favor after it being stacked against her for seasons....which means Cersei won't be able to hold off the attack after all.

calumnus said:

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bearister said:

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That bad boy went down faster than a Boeing 737 MAX.

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Second shot right in the neck? In the neck, in the neck? At that height and distance? With no recoil?

Again, circle around and attack the ships from behind.

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It's head moved back, and to the right....and it came from the area of the Grassy Knoll near the peasant with the open umbrella.

They'd spin it and the sails would virtually obstruct their entire view.

How far can a dragon's flame travel after being expelled vs the range of the steel bolt? These are questions Attila the Hun, Napoleon and General Patton would ask. General Custer, not so much.

I still have a hard time taking Euron seriously. As a fan of the Danish political drama Borgen in which Euron plays a troubled political consultant, it's a challenge to imagine him as a tough guy worthy of Cersei taking seriously no matter how awful they make his teeth look.

Euron has a very punchable face.

He is the type of character we have all encountered that is equally despised by both men and women

Bronn must have bought some of that invisible magic, as he miraculously traveled all the way to Winterfell and entered the castle to an unarmed room of just Jamie and Tyrion. And upon leaving, both of them just sat there and stared at each other. It never occurred to them to get off their ass and alert the castle or pick up a weapon lmao.

Jamie is irredeemable, his record is beyond repair.

But all it takes is Brienne, who has no history or equity with Dany, to vouch for a Stark and Targaryan Killer (and wannabe child killer) with one hand, and an enemy beheading turns into a guest of honor

GBear4Life said:

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Euron has a very punchable face.

He is the type of character we have all encountered that is equally despised by both men and women

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GBear4Life said:

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They'd spin it and the sails would virtually obstruct their entire view.

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Exactly. And if they fired them they would destroy their sails, masts and rigging.

Cersei kills Bronn
Cersei kills Jamie
Cersei kills Euron

GBear4Life said:

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Jamie is irredeemable, his record is beyond repair.

But all it takes is Brienne, who has no history or equity with Dany, to vouch for a Stark and Targaryan Killer (and wannabe child killer) with one hand, and an enemy beheading turns into a guest of honor

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To be fair, Jamie's time at Winterfell was nothing but exemplary. He might not have been helpful (because all the warriors were essentially pawns until Arya killed the white walker [I also admit that was not the original strategy]), but Jamie fought for the living well.

golden sloth said:

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To be fair, Jamie's time at Winterfell was nothing but exemplary. He might not have been helpful (because all the warriors were essentially pawns until Arya killed the white walker [I also admit that was not the original strategy]), but Jamie fought for the living well.

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I agree but he should have never been privy to that opportunity. Should have been killed by the Starks when captured, and certainly by Dany on behalf of the North when he arrives at Winterfell in Season 8.

If the euron-born fleet was hiding behind high, coastal mountainous plot devices rendering them somehow invisible from sky and ocean, they would still have to move from behind said mountains, and fully expose & position themselves to take high-precision shots with barely tested new weaponry towards flying objects in the distance while navigating on fast moving, shaking ships through treacherous coastal waves, all of which takes time and luck. They achieved this while going completely undetected by every member of the rival ships and kellysue & her dragons. Lesson learned: underestimating kraken skill-and-sorcery carries the iron-price.

Had they failed to surprise the northern forces, kellysue would have responded with typical indignant overconfidence, and charged her dragons straight at the euron-fleet as she had charged her lightly mounted khalasar. The result would have been similar, except that the euronites could then take their first volley of uncontested shots at a closer distance, end both dragons, and capture the wet usurper for a humiliating, public, barefooted, naked, bitter procession through Flea Bottom + execution. The Lioness crushes the Serpent's head via mountain-sized armored boots. Cue music. End credits.

Separated at birth?

Cmon guys. There has to be one brave hero on BI who is willing to defend the writing on season 8

ducky23 said:

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Cmon guys. There has to be one brave hero on BI who is willing to defend the writing on season 8

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I think I already did? IMO the show is still very entertaining and the issues most people are citing are a natural consequence of them needing to end the story at a certain time. No opportunity for the leisurely pace they once had.

ducky23 said:

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Cmon guys. There has to be one brave hero on BI who is willing to defend the writing on season 8

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The Battle of Winterfell was a great episode, I felt.

Four days later, D.B. Weiss and David Benioff were on Kimmel, and the comments accompanying this YouTube video are 100% negative (and pro-Jon Snow). (Also, a lot of the comments were like "no, they're not Game of Thrones' creators -- George R.R. Martin is, which is not true. They created the show, as the opening credits say. They're responsible for the show's success. Martin, of course, deserves some credit. But there are so many ways the show could've gone wrong in Season 1 in the casting of mostly inexperienced unknowns, the selection of composer, the changes to characters, the choices of what to emphasize, etc. In fact, things did go wrong, which is why it took 4-5 years to get to screen.)




Having said that, this week's episode was pretty awful....New York Times TV critic James Poniewozik sums it up pretty well below. But, yeah, I gotta agree with ducky....damnit!

sycasey said:

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ducky23 said:

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Cmon guys. There has to be one brave hero on BI who is willing to defend the writing on season 8

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I think I already did? IMO the show is still very entertaining and the issues most people are citing are a natural consequence of them needing to end the story at a certain time. No opportunity for the leisurely pace they once had.

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So game of thrones decided, on their own, to make only six episodes. And they can then use that decision to excuse bad writing?

The question is not whether the show is still entertaining. I believe that even a really awful writer could still make something entertaining with the incredible material/story/characters the writer has to work with.

The question is whether the writing is at the same standard as seasons 1-4. The question is whether game of thrones maxed out on its potential.

I think even the most ardent defenders of game of thrones will admit the writing for this season could have been better.

I thought these were two insightful pieces published today. (I don't know if I mentioned this before, but Lili Loofbourow is a Cal grad/lecturer.)

ducky23 said:

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The question is not whether the show is still entertaining. I believe that even a really awful writer could still make something entertaining

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I don't. There are a LOT of examples of great source material that didn't result in anything nearly as entertaining as GoT.

I agree the writing is not as strong as it used to be. I think there are reasons for that (no more source material to adapt and a compressed timeline). I think the show still easily outclasses most of what else is on TV.

GBear4Life said:

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Setting up Dany to be betrayed by her advisors as a 'mad queen'. Pleeeez.

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If that happens, the "bitter" would be her death while the "sweet" could be that she is the one who sacrificially requests Jon do the deed when she's in a brief moment of sane lucidity as she temporarily realizes she is actually becoming her mad father and so must be killed before she can no longer be stopped. She gives up her life ambitions and her life itself to save her people from herself. In other words, a violent madness could be a real, inescapable, organic part of her (not just the usual political demonizations by operatives favoring another candidate) and that madness could soon be seen in her untempered use of her last dragon and of the unsullieds on many innocents.

Grrm will probably do a much better job than TV D&D have done (or not done) in several tastefully subtle foreshadowings of the madness of King Aerys II within his daughter. Without setting up this scenario, a sudden inherited madness for the sake of "surprise" and supposedly sophisticated "subverted expectations" feels cheap, unwarranted/unjustified, unsatisfying.

Nevertheless, if the writing of such a scene is done right (I know, don't hold my breath), then it could provide the material for E. Clarke to truly shine. Imagine navigating successfully between (1) insane, bloodthirsty, vengeful, tyrannical, destructive wrath (the phrase "burn them all" may even come out of her mouth) and, (2) brief instances of sane remorse, terrifying realization of one's own madness, and finally deciding on making the ultimate sacrifice for the good of others.

ducky23 said:

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Cmon guys. There has to be one brave hero on BI who is willing to defend the writing on season 8

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Moragabear is your huckleberry

sycasey said:

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ducky23 said:

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The question is not whether the show is still entertaining. I believe that even a really awful writer could still make something entertaining

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I don't. There are a LOT of examples of great source material that didn't result in anything nearly as entertaining as GoT.

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I'm not talking about adapting something from the source material. That's incredibly difficult.

I'm just talking about season 8, not season 1.

When writing for season 8, all the world building has already been done, the characters have already been pretty fleshed out, and you have a legion of fans that have already completely bought in. What I'm saying, at that point, its not hard to make something entertaining. Hell I was entertained by the 3rd matrix movie, godfather 3 and back to the future 3. But a lot of that entertainment value was built on the backs of the previous movies.

ducky23 said:

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sycasey said:

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ducky23 said:

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The question is not whether the show is still entertaining. I believe that even a really awful writer could still make something entertaining

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I don't. There are a LOT of examples of great source material that didn't result in anything nearly as entertaining as GoT.

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I'm not talking about adapting something from the source material. That's incredibly difficult.

I'm just talking about season 8, not season 1.

When writing for season 8, all the world building has already been done, the characters have already been pretty fleshed out, and you have a legion of fans that have already completely bought in. What I'm saying, at that point, its not hard to make something entertaining. Hell I was entertained by the 3rd matrix movie, godfather 3 and back to the future 3. But a lot of that entertainment value was built on the backs of the previous movies.

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My family and several other people laughed right out loud in the theater of the absurdity that was the third Matrix movie.

As for the Game of Thrones show, it has its own self-created problems which differ from the problems of the ASOIAF books. The showrunners don't appear to actually understand the purpose of some of the main characters as intended by Martin (from my point of view), while Martin suffers from the common malady of writers who fall in love with writing the middle of the story and then have no clear path to believably ending their saga (see Star Wars prequels). For some examples:

Jaime goes to Winterfell to do.......nothing
Tyrion has been an idiot for several seasons when he is clearly intended to be the smartest person in Westeros (along with Varys)
Littlefinger stays in Winterfell for a whole season doing nothing to advance his interests so that he can be around to be conveniently killed......
....by the Starks, whereby a ridiculous Arya and Sansa rivalry that bears no resemblance to the rivalry they had in their younger days makes it seem as though one is going to kill the other when everybody knows that has no chance of happening
Jon is always being bailed out by someone else in every single battle of his life and we are supposed to consider him a hero because of....what exactly? He hasn't ever done anything.

As for Danerys, everyone is always telling her not to kill all the innocents in Kings Landing, forgetting that nobody seemed to hold it against Aegon when he did the same thing to conquer some of the Seven Kingdoms. And Targaryen insantiy is not so common that we should assume Danerys is likely to suffer from it. Plenty of Targaryens have been admired and beloved. Just not Aerys.

Oh, and that whole Azor Ahai/prince that was promised? Never mind that.

ducky23 said:

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sycasey said:

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ducky23 said:

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The question is not whether the show is still entertaining. I believe that even a really awful writer could still make something entertaining

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I don't. There are a LOT of examples of great source material that didn't result in anything nearly as entertaining as GoT.

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I'm not talking about adapting something from the source material. That's incredibly difficult.

I'm just talking about season 8, not season 1.

When writing for season 8, all the world building has already been done, the characters have already been pretty fleshed out, and you have a legion of fans that have already completely bought in. What I'm saying, at that point, its not hard to make something entertaining. Hell I was entertained by the 3rd matrix movie, godfather 3 and back to the future 3. But a lot of that entertainment value was built on the backs of the previous movies.

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I was not very entertained by the third Matrix movie, so not sure I'm buying your premise here. That's a great example of creators blowing it despite having the audience in their hands thanks to previous work.

Yogi Bear said:

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As for the Game of Thrones show, it has its own self-created problems which differ from the problems of the ASOIAF books. The showrunners don't appear to actually understand the purpose of some of the main characters as intended by Martin (from my point of view), while Martin suffers from the common malady of writers who fall in love with writing the middle of the story and then have no clear path to believably ending their saga (see Star Wars prequels).

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I think these issues are linked, though.

A few things:

--This article from 2 months ago argued that George R.R. Martin is unable to finish his books that why he hasn't finished them. He's painted himself into a corner he can't get out of, and Davie Benioff and D.B. Weiss are doing the best they can. And the series ending might give the freedom to finish the books. (Or perhaps there is tension between Martin and Dave and Dan, and they aren't on speaking terms, and Martin is distancing himself from the series to emerge as the hero, even though he'll happily pick up another Emmy this fall.)


--I used to listen to the Breaking Bad podcasts, and reading interviews with creator Vince Gilligan. Basically, his whole thing is just to lavish credit on everybody else and point out when the great ideas didn't come from him. He had assembled a writers room with a few cronies, yes, but also several women, one of whom won an Emmy for writing an episode. But they would all gather, as all TV writers' rooms do, and hash out and debate where they were headed. Game of Thrones, on the other hand, is very insular. Just 4 people: Dave, Dan, Bryan Cogman (who joined the show from the start) and Dave Hill, Dave and Dan's former assistant, who writes one episode per season following George R.R. Martin's departure from the writers' staff. The problem is that it becomes insular and there's no one to really question things, and the result you get is it a lot of stuff not making sense, like the whole Brienne-Jamie thing. It has been pointed out many times that the show hasn't had a female writer since Season 3. And a female director since Season 4 (Breaking Bad's Michelle MacLaren.)


--Over the weekend, George R.R. Martin endorsed a presidential candidate. Endorsed a certain presidential candidate enthusiastically. And for some reason, I can see parallels with his endorsement and the way Season 8 is going, even though he's not involved.

--I remember when Jon Snow was called "Stupid Jon Snow." Now, he has many, many people thinking he's the leader Kings Landing needed. I see so many real-life parallels with how he's viewed by his fanbase -- dismissing his flaws entirely -- and real life. I wonder if that was intended, or not. It also parallels how certain people's overcoming a lot of adversity, even if it's self-caused, are celebrated over certain other people who triumph over adversity.

okaydo said:

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A few things:

--This article from 2 months ago argued that George R.R. Martin is unable to finish his books that why he hasn't finished them. He's painted himself into a corner he can't get out of, and Davie Benioff and D.B. Weiss are doing the best they can.

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He did, but Benioff/Weiss fixed a lot of that by eliminating storylines that nobody cared about. Dorne? Gone. Other Targaryens? Gone. Extra Greyjoys? Gone.

Since they could have theoretically taken as many seasons as they wanted to finish the story, there was no corner they were painted into once they dealt with all of Martin's mistakes. I think they're more interested in writing completely new material that's not beholden to anything Martin's written and so they're winding this up as fast as they can so they can get on to the other shows they want. That said, winding it up quickly doesn't mean that they had to make Tyrion incompetent or Jon wholly unremarkable (the only thing he's ever done of note is rescue his commanding officer from a wight - everything else someone else had to bail him out), or Danyerus power-mad when she hasn't shown any proclivity towards that in any part of the story, or Jamie utterly irrelevant to the point that they seem to have forgotten his is a story of redemption, but they've given him nothing to redeem himself with other than perhaps killing his sister - in which case why is Arya going to King's Landing since the only two people there on her list are Cersei and the Mountain and other characters seem to have been given those tasks.

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Or perhaps there is tension between Martin and Dave and Dan, and they aren't on speaking terms, and Martin is distancing himself from the series to emerge as the hero, even though he'll happily pick up another Emmy this fall.)

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Martin is already not the hero. The series has become more important that the books and if someday the Winds of Winter ever comes out, it'll largely be with a collective "Whatever, we already found out how this story ends."

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--I used to listen to the Breaking Bad podcasts, and reading interviews with creator Vince Gilligan. Basically, his whole thing is just to lavish credit on everybody else and point out when the great ideas didn't come from him. He had assembled a writers room with a few cronies, yes, but also several women, one of whom won an Emmy for writing an episode. But they would all gather, as all TV writers' rooms do, and hash out and debate where they were headed. Game of Thrones, on the other hand, is very insular. Just 4 people: Dave, Dan, Bryan Cogman (who joined the show from the start) and Dave Hill, Dave and Dan's former assistant, who writes one episode per season following George R.R. Martin's departure from the writers' staff. The problem is that it becomes insular and there's no one to really question things, and the result you get is it a lot of stuff not making sense, like the whole Brienne-Jamie thing. It has been pointed out many times that the show hasn't had a female writer since Season 3. And a female director since Season 4 (Breaking Bad's Michelle MacLaren.)

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Which is how you end up with stupidity like Sansa saying she'd still be a stupid little bird if she hadn't been raped and abused. Any woman would have shot down the stupidity of that line immediately.

Gilligan is a good reference. That's a guy who understands how to pace things and end a story in a way that makes sense given what the characters have been established to be.

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-Over the weekend, George R.R. Martin endorsed a presidential candidate. Endorsed a certain presidential candidate enthusiastically. And for some reason, I can see parallels with his endorsement and the way Season 8 is going, even though he's not involved.

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Not knowing who he endorsed, I'm utterly unsurprised by his pick.

By the way, if being reluctant is the best quality in a king, why did Robert suck so much? He didn't want to be king. Competence figures in there too and when you get right down to it, Jon has none of the wisdom of his uncle, the reluctant head of house. There is nothing about him that makes him a good king other than that he's not hungry for the office. What Jon wants is to be free. He doesn't want to be Warden of the North and he doesn't want to be King of the Seven Kingdoms. He doesn't even really want to be Rheagar's son other than that it means he's not a *******.

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--I remember when Jon Snow was called "Stupid Jon Snow." Now, he has many, many people thinking he's the leader Kings Landing needed. I see so many real-life parallels with how he's viewed by his fanbase -- dismissing his flaws entirely -- and real life. I wonder if that was intended, or not. It also parallels how certain people's overcoming a lot of adversity, even if it's self-caused, are celebrated over certain other people who triumph over adversity.

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I don't think he's stupid, but what the Night's Watch really needed was Tywin, not Jon. Jon only looks good compared to the corrupt and inept people who hunger for the offices that he doesn't even want.

What the hell happened to the Los Angeles Times?

MoragaBear said:

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Nobody's raining on my parade unless they kill everyone and some turd sits on the throne.

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Well, if you've read the leaks about how the show ends and with all the character arcs for the final 3 episodes, be prepared to do some "raining" on the parade.