calumnus said:

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I was less happy that we did not learn more about what the Night King wanted, and now it seems like the battle with Cersei will be anticlimactic. The Night King and his zombie army was scary. Cersei is not scary. She isn't even that evil.

I was also not happy that the living split their forces, sending the Dothraki out into the night (if you are going to attack the White Walkers, why not attack them in the day?). Defend the castle, then maybe attack with the Dothraki from the flank? Why be so stupid? The Unsullied were just thrown to the wolves.

I would have rather the Night King overrun the North with key main characters escaping, then the Night King advancing on Kings Landing, destroying the Lannister army, with Arya only taking out the Night King at the end.

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There isn't even a Night King in the books (there's an unnamed God of darkness whom the Others apparently serve). Given that he used to be a man before the Children transformed him, but he wants to destroy men, I don't think he has particular complex motivations. The bottom line is that his character isn't well thought out and his whole purpose in the story was to be a Deus Ex Machina solution for the good guys.

As for military strategy, it must be said again that Jon is the all time worst military strategist.

Oh, look: They wrote an article about ducky:

Yogi Bear said:

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As for military strategy, it must be said again that Jon is the all time worst military strategist.

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This is absolutely correct. And not only is he a poor military leader, he simply has colossally poor judgment. Like going for a dragon joy ride on the eve of the big war with no prior training or safety equipment. Was he war planning or pumping up his trioops? No, he was flirting around with Dany like it was a one-on-one date on the Bachelor at great danger to himself personally and to the Cause in general.

And how about his horribly conceived idea to go north of the wall to capture a wight....to show Cersei? Not only did he go himself but he took every main character with him on an implausibly dangerous journey with a low likelihood of success. Failure would have - and almost did - wipe out their entire leadership group. It's absurd to begin with and to do it all for Cersei? Please. Sure enough, he had to bailed out by Dany to continue his pattern of getting bailed out by the women in his life, just like The Battle of the B*stards (thank you, Sansa!) and the Battle of Winterfell (thank you, Arya) in which he played essentially no meaningful role besides brooding.

Get this clown out of there and let a real king (or more likely, a queen) rule the north and the seven kingdoms. I give him credit for his 18,000-0 record in hand-to-hand combat but he should stick to fighting and leave the leadership and thinking to others.

okaydo said:

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Oh, look: They wrote an article about ducky:

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Oh brother. I know you're just writing tongue in cheek, but still. So now no one is allowed to be critical of GOT? Do the writers and directors need their own safe space?

I think people who loved the episode should realize that there were legitimate flaws. That shouldn't lessen your enjoyment of the show. but also, don't just complain that people are being critical of a show you love without actually contemplating whether the critic might actually have a point.

I am on record saying I thought the dark/fog was a ballsy decision
I'm fine with the whole arya thing and every other complaint alleged in that article
the only problem i had was that some of the writing, I believe, was poor and catered to the lowest denominator. And I believe the show would have been infinitely better with just a few writing changes. just because i'm critical of some of the writing doesn't mean that i'm looking to nitpick everything.

Look, in my view, a show is either good or bad. I don't see movies/shows thru the lens of a fanboy. I don't have particular attachments to characters, nor do i need things to be true to the source material or any crap like that. to me, something is either good or bad (knowing full well my definition could very well be extremely different from the next person - which is fine, that's what makes debating these things fun). I think the red wedding was the best TV scene ever. I think the last scene in the sopranos was incredibly technical and detailed. The last season of the Wire was bad (and not just because it was the last season and it was impossible to end satisfactorily) it was simply not as good as the other seasons, period. I think the leftovers is the best show to be on TV. I think West wing is a close second. and contrary to popular opinion, I thought the last season was good even though Sorkin was long gone.

I try to call it as I see it. I really don't like to nit pick, I really don't. There are plenty of shows that I absolutely LOVE. plenty. (I've probably seen every episode of the West Wing more than 15+ times). but the last episode of GOT was not one of them. and that's just my opinion. no one needs to agree.

My two cents:

1) the books will go a different direction - part creative, part to increase sales
2) there is an insane amount of detail and people will be reviewing old episodes things to pick-up on clues, etc. and get a better understanding of what really happened. The show runners have been doing a good job to tie details together.
3) Episode 3 will be considered a classic, even though it was hard to follow (and deliberately so). "The detail and haunting shots were amazing, as was the pacing. Fastest 80 minutes ever. Yes, there may be some mistakes or something that could have done better, but looked what they did do.
4) I wouldn't be surprised if someone else (e.g., Tyrion) takes over military strategy as they move toward Cersei with a much smaller army, and to see new allies like Yara Greyjoy also be military leaders. Danny, in particular, is good at listening to advise. I'm wondering if Jon doesn't realize his limitations and chose to marry Danny without asserting his rights to be King.

Great show.

ducky23 said:

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okaydo said:

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Oh, look: They wrote an article about ducky:

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Oh brother. I know you're just writing tongue in cheek, but still. So now no one is allowed to be critical of GOT? Do the writers and directors need their own safe space?

I think people who loved the episode should realize that there were legitimate flaws. That shouldn't lessen your enjoyment of the show. but also, don't just complain that people are being critical of a show you love without actually contemplating whether the critic might actually have a point.

I am on record saying I thought the dark/fog was a ballsy decision
I'm fine with the whole arya thing and every other complaint alleged in that article
the only problem i had was that some of the writing, I believe, was poor and catered to the lowest denominator. And I believe the show would have been infinitely better with just a few writing changes. just because i'm critical of some of the writing doesn't mean that i'm looking to nitpick everything.

Look, in my view, a show is either good or bad. I don't see movies/shows thru the lens of a fanboy. I don't have particular attachments to characters, nor do i need things to be true to the source material or any crap like that. to me, something is either good or bad (knowing full well my definition could very well be extremely different from the next person - which is fine, that's what makes debating these things fun). I think the red wedding was the best TV scene ever. I think the last scene in the sopranos was incredibly technical and detailed. The last season of the Wire was bad (and not just because it was the last season and it was impossible to end satisfactorily) it was simply not as good as the other seasons, period. I think the leftovers is the best show to be on TV. I think West wing is a close second. and contrary to popular opinion, I thought the last season was good even though Sorkin was long gone.

I try to call it as I see it. I really don't like to nit pick, I really don't. There are plenty of shows that I absolutely LOVE. plenty. (I've probably seen every episode of the West Wing more than 15+ times). but the last episode of GOT was not one of them. and that's just my opinion. no one needs to agree.

---

I believe Ozymandias, the 3rd to last episode of Breaking Bad, is the best television I've ever watched but I think this last episode of GOT comes close, even though I struggle with the bad military tactics employed by the living. Curious as to your take on Ozymandias.

dajo9 said:

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ducky23 said:

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okaydo said:

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Oh, look: They wrote an article about ducky:

---

Oh brother. I know you're just writing tongue in cheek, but still. So now no one is allowed to be critical of GOT? Do the writers and directors need their own safe space?

I think people who loved the episode should realize that there were legitimate flaws. That shouldn't lessen your enjoyment of the show. but also, don't just complain that people are being critical of a show you love without actually contemplating whether the critic might actually have a point.

I am on record saying I thought the dark/fog was a ballsy decision
I'm fine with the whole arya thing and every other complaint alleged in that article
the only problem i had was that some of the writing, I believe, was poor and catered to the lowest denominator. And I believe the show would have been infinitely better with just a few writing changes. just because i'm critical of some of the writing doesn't mean that i'm looking to nitpick everything.

Look, in my view, a show is either good or bad. I don't see movies/shows thru the lens of a fanboy. I don't have particular attachments to characters, nor do i need things to be true to the source material or any crap like that. to me, something is either good or bad (knowing full well my definition could very well be extremely different from the next person - which is fine, that's what makes debating these things fun). I think the red wedding was the best TV scene ever. I think the last scene in the sopranos was incredibly technical and detailed. The last season of the Wire was bad (and not just because it was the last season and it was impossible to end satisfactorily) it was simply not as good as the other seasons, period. I think the leftovers is the best show to be on TV. I think West wing is a close second. and contrary to popular opinion, I thought the last season was good even though Sorkin was long gone.

I try to call it as I see it. I really don't like to nit pick, I really don't. There are plenty of shows that I absolutely LOVE. plenty. (I've probably seen every episode of the West Wing more than 15+ times). but the last episode of GOT was not one of them. and that's just my opinion. no one needs to agree.

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I believe Ozymandias, the 3rd to last episode of Breaking Bad, is the best television I've ever watched but I think this last episode of GOT comes close, even though I struggle with the bad military tactics employed by the living. Curious as to your take on Ozymandias.

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dajo9 said:

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Arya, a trained assassin, only requires a defense of her heroics because of sexism

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good lord

Jedi don't need no stinkin' air support from dragons.

TheSouseFamily said:

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Yogi Bear said:

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As for military strategy, it must be said again that Jon is the all time worst military strategist.

---

This is absolutely correct. And not only is he a poor military leader, he simply has colossally poor judgment. Like going for a dragon joy ride on the eve of the big war with no prior training or safety equipment. Was he war planning or pumping up his trioops? No, he was flirting around with Dany like it was a one-on-one date on the Bachelor at great danger to himself personally and to the Cause in general.

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LOL, you're being a bit hard on him here. Getting used to riding a dragon before planning an aerial dragon attack on the Night King is practical and necessary. The flirting with Dany was simply a cherry-on-top for a warrior is battling blue balls.

Quote:

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And how about his horribly conceived idea to go north of the wall to capture a wight....to show Cersei? Not only did he go himself but he took every main character with him on an implausibly dangerous journey with a low likelihood of success. Failure would have - and almost did - wipe out their entire leadership group. It's absurd to begin with and to do it all for Cersei? Please. Sure enough, he had to bailed out by Dany to continue his pattern of getting bailed out by the women in his life, just like The Battle of the B*stards (thank you, Sansa!) and the Battle of Winterfell (thank you, Arya) in which he played essentially no meaningful role besides brooding.

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The voyage north of the wall to get proof for Cersei was beyond Mad.

Quote:

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Get this clown out of there and let a real king (or more likely, a queen) rule the north and the seven kingdoms. I give him credit for his 18,000-0 record in hand-to-hand combat but he should stick to fighting and leave the leadership and thinking to others.

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Too hard on him again (Get this "clown" out of here lol) He's too noble for his own good that he makes bad choices. I still think he'd make a good King; he'll have help in strategy and he has all the other traits to rule that I'd argue are unmatched by any other character.

An OG death scene would have been for one of Night King's lieutenants unveil themselves as Arya disguised before running up behind the NK and killing him.

As opposed to the scene as it were shot, leaving us to believe that hundreds of white walkers were distracted on their smartphones playing doodle jump so as to not notice Arya.

Yogi Bear said:

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Oski87 said:

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sycasey said:

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okaydo said:

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sycasey said:

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ducky23 said:

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Whereas in the last episode, Melisandre spells everything out. She's basically directly telling the audience "look here, beric was brought back 6 times by the lord of light and he finally just died saving Arya. Arya is special you idiots. Oh and remember when I told Arya about the blue eyes?" Everything is laid out in the dialogue. Rather than having faith the audience could figure it out themselves, they had to make it blatantly obvious what was going on.

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Though again: they do this and still have people complaining that it didn't make sense for Arya to be the one to kill the big boss.

I get that different people have different standards for this stuff, but personally I'm at the point where I just find most of the criticism of GoT episodes exhausting. It reminds me of the Itchy & Stratchy kids focus group on The Simpsons:



"So you're saying you want a realistic, down-to-earth show that's completely off the wall and swarming with magic robots?"

If it does the obvious thing, it's too obvious. If it does the unpredictable thing, it doesn't make sense. If it does bad things to the heroes, it's too nihilistic. If the heroes win, then they're playing it too safe. The quiet, character-based setup episodes are too boring. The big action episodes don't have enough character development. And so on.

I can see SOME argument that the writing is not as strong as it was when the show had the Martin books for backbone. But at the same time, I think people are assuming a lot about the stuff they don't like being only the show's invention and not what Martin was planning. Maybe what Martin is struggling with in trying to finish his series is exactly this: how do you actually END a story that is about subverting expectations without making the whole thing feel pointless? There's no way to please everyone with that. At this point everyone has a way they THINK the story should go.

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The term Mary Sue was trending because many felt what Arya did was unearned.

Anyways, I thought this article was interesting in terms of GOT subverting expectations.

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/culture/2019/4/29/18522731/game-of-thrones-season-8-episode-3-battle-of-winterfell-not-that-deadly

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Ugh, "Mary Sue" is such a dumb description for Arya. They literally showed her going through YEARS OF TRAINING leading up to this moment. She didn't just get her assassin abilities in an instant. It's not a contrivance.

Anyway, I kind of liked that most of the major players survived this round, because early in the series, as well-done as it was, I had concerns that the whole thing was just a big monument to nihilism: all your heroes die, you're silly to believe in them, etc. That's a kind of limited teenage worldview, to my mind. If they want to say something about real-life history and politics then it's really more of a murky middle ground between good and bad most of the time.

But it seems like the show is finally having to acknowledge the need for positive catharsis for some of the main characters. I'm sure there will be complications from here on out and not everyone will survive the end of the series, but that balance should be there. Even GRRM himself I think said that he planned for the ending to be "bittersweet," not an all-out downer.

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Frankly I think Arya has earned most of all the ability to deliver the blow.

She is the only one who has been effective at killing the Starks Enemies - Littlefinger, Frey, the Night King, all the guys she killed along the way. She left the hound alive, but that was on purpose. The rest of the family was bumbling - Rob made plenty of leadership mistakes, got himself and his mother and army murdered, while winning the war. Sansa married two Lannisters and was dreadful early on. Bran was pushed out of windows. Jon was killed at the wall by his own troops.

At the end of the day, she has been my favorite character, and I fully expected her to come through at the end. Frankly, I think she takes the throne. She was a survivor, with a singular focus and a high level of commitment.

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Sansa married just one Lannister and one Bolton. Not really sure how they justified the second marriage when she was technically still married, but maybe there's a scroll in Oldtown about it.

Also regarding Jon, he is a terrible military leader. He's had to be bailed out of every major battle he's ever fought. Perhaps Martin will treat him a little nicer in the books.

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Two Lannisters - Geoffrey and Tyrion - Uncle and Nephew. Although "unconsummated". And a Bolton. They told Bolton that she was pure so that was OK.

GBear4Life said:

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An OG death scene would have been for one of Night King's lieutenants unveil themselves as Arya disguised before running up behind the NK and killing him.

As opposed to the scene as it were shot, leaving us to believe that hundreds of white walkers were distracted on their smartphones playing doodle jump so as to not notice Arya.

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We sure that wouldn't have just led to more complaints about, "How did Arya kill a White Walker all on her own? And make the costume fit?"

Oski87 said:

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Yogi Bear said:

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Sansa married just one Lannister and one Bolton. Not really sure how they justified the second marriage when she was technically still married, but maybe there's a scroll in Oldtown about it.

Also regarding Jon, he is a terrible military leader. He's had to be bailed out of every major battle he's ever fought. Perhaps Martin will treat him a little nicer in the books.

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Two Lannisters - Geoffrey and Tyrion - Uncle and Nephew. Although "unconsummated". And a Bolton. They told Bolton that she was pure so that was OK.

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She never married Joffrey. Margaery evicted her out of that spot.

Theory going around that Jon provided the distraction to allow Arya past the dragon at the entrance of the godswood.



See 1:26+. Otherwise, he's simply screaming a few feet from a fire-breathing dragon, not throwing a dragonglass-tipped spear or dagger or his valyrian sword at its eye, but just screaming and standing there like a buffoon. If the theory is right, Jon was sacrificing himself so Sis could do her thing and save the kingdom. He stands up and screams, "Gooooo" [inaudible], then "go, go" [barely audible]. Cut immediately to Night King, and then hair of White Walker moving as No One passes by. Arya almost blew it with her pre-strike screaming (not very stealth ninja-like), but gurl got the job done and likely was the only One who could deliver that type of final blow to that particular foe.

Prediction:

Samwell to Eggjon: "You gave up your crown to save your people. Would she do the same?"

The answer'll end up being, "yes, she would." Auntie'll sacrifice her crown and perhaps her life for the good of her followers or the future of Westeros.

Nasal Mucus Goldenbear said:

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Prediction:

Samwell to Eggjon: "You gave up your crown to save your people. Would she do the same?"

The answer'll end up being, "yes, she would." Auntie'll sacrifice her crown and perhaps her life for the good of her followers or the future of Westeros.

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I can see this happening. This would be preferable to her dying in vain. Ultimately, in a cliched way I just want to see the main protagonists live: Jon, Arya, Sansa, Dany, Tyrion, Bran, Sam and at least one dragon.

Most 'experts' seem to be sure the showrunners won't allow both Jon and Dany to survive.

And what's with the shot of the WW turning it's head towards the camera at 1:38 right before we see Arya dunk on the NK?

GBear4Life said:

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And what's with the shot of the WW turning it's head towards the camera at 1:38 right before we see Arya dunk on the NK?

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He's turning his head to the breeze that goes by, which presumably is Arya.

GBear4Life said:

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And what's with the shot of the WW turning it's head towards the camera at 1:38 right before we see Arya dunk on the NK?

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That would be Arya whooshing past him.

That's the natural conclusion I reached too, sure.

I guess the hundreds of WWs needed to get back to doodle jump.

ARYA FACTS:

• Arya Stark sleeps with a night torch on. Not because she is afraid of the night, but The Night fears Arya Stark.
• Arya Stark alone has fuller chest hair than Chuck Norris.
• In Westeros a common saying is the only certainties in life are Death and Arya Stark. But that is being redundant.
• Arya Stark's new direwolf pup knew instinctively to pick up his own poop because Arya Stark will take 5HIT from no one.
• Catelyn Stark had no need for food and water for nine entire months. Fetus Arya fed her mother and 500 Northern families through her umbilical cord.
• Accused by Freys of being unladylike, Lady Arya took on pie-making.
• Before Arya left for Essos Kindergarten, she looked up at her father and said, "Ned, you're the man of the house now."
• Having been with Arya Stark, Gendry Waters Baratheon became the Three-Legged Raven, First of His Name.

Arya's tears cure cancer, but the problem is that she never cries.

MoragaBear said:

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Anyone expecting a peaceful and serene episode 4...

Don't.

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Spoilers.

Another gut punch. And to say it, yes Cersei is a monster. The only difference between the show and the books is that in the books she's largely stupid and in the show she's smart but in both she's awful. People saying they want her to defeat Danny and Jon are just doing so because they find both characters annoying and because it makes them appear "edgy". But I defy someone to name one redeeming thing Cersei has done in 10 years (and no, not shooting your brother when you have the chance definitely does not count as redeeming).

https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-reviews/game-of-thrones-review-last-starks-sepinwall-831527/

okaydo said:

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https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-reviews/game-of-thrones-review-last-starks-sepinwall-831527/

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Really good summary. Wonder who Sansa is thinking in the better leader? You think it must be Jon, but is it? Add why does everyone think Cersie will fail? It is apparent that Jamie is going down to slay his sister, Aria to kill everyone on her list, and the Hound to kill the Mountain. But why does anyone think Jon or Danny are better at military strategy than worldly Euron and Harry Strickland (head of the golden company's troops), and can defeat Cersei who seems well positioned in her fortress?

A well-informed post and ensuing discussion on elements of SURPRISE in satisfying fiction-writing:

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/bld2j5/spoilers_extended_how_surprise_does_and_doesnt/

That bad boy went down faster than a Boeing 737 MAX.

producers and writers have been throwing in the towel since they parted from the source material a few years ago.

Season 8 has been entertaining (as usual) but poor. Especially if the leaked ending come to fruition, which it did for episode 4.

Setting up Dany to be betrayed by her advisors as a 'mad queen'. Pleeeez.

IMO the "what" of what's happening isn't bad. This kind of conflict (Team Jon vs. Team Dany) I think makes plenty of sense.

The difference is that they are now delivering as much plot within one episode that GRRM used to take at least half a book to get through. So stuff that was once meticulously explained now gets elided with a lot of yadda yadda. I'm not sure there's a perfect solution here, other than having the show continue for 10 more seasons.

Tormund Giantsbane looks like a fun guy to toss a few back with. Especially if served in a horn.

bearister said:

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That bad boy went down faster than a Boeing 737 MAX.

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Second shot right in the neck? In the neck, in the neck? At that height and distance? With no recoil?

Again, circle around and attack the ships from behind.