Warning: Spoiler alert in GOT thread

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sycasey
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ducky23 said:

By the last season, nearly every character was largely seen as either entirely good or entirely bad. For instance, I think if they had more time, dany's arc would have been more interesting if there was more grey (like legitimate reasons for doing the things she did) rather than painting her as a complete lunatic monster. Think about how much better Jon killing dany would have been if she were slightly more gray. No one cares if Jon kills dany cause no one has any sympathy for her anymore. And the decision to kill her is strictly a good/bad decision.
I think this is oversimplifying more than the show itself actually did (IMO Dany's death is played as a tragic moment).

That said, I will not disagree that the show could have used more time to build up the moral conflicts in these characters. The whole Jon-Dany storyline needed more room to breathe. I just don't think it's an example of moral black-white storytelling.
sycasey
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golden sloth said:

Also, does anyone kind of think Bran is not so moral or just. Once he became the Three-Eyed Raven, he is apathetic and dispassionate, often times it is hard to tell if he cares about people at all. Also, he presumably was able to see the entire final season before they played out, and yet he allowed everyone to be sacrificed at Winterfell prior to Arya killing the Night King. He did nothing to stop the slaughter of King's Landing. He basically used Cersei's plan of letting everyone else destroy each other and the innocent, while he hangs back knowing one day he'll be King. Then, he doesn't care to even run the kingdom as he'd rather warg around than actually solve problems. I'd predict several kingdoms try to break away and declare their independence much like Sansa and the North within five years.
I think Bran isn't particularly moral, but his dispassionate nature allows for more stability than Westeros has seen in a long while. That's basically why everyone grudgingly accepted him on the throne.
GBear4Life
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Questions about plausibility of plot/characters:

What were Sam, Arya, Brienne and Bran doing at the rather odd meeting discussing terms? They are Lords of nothing. (And the inclusion of Sam and Edmere injecting their 2 cents and then getting clowned were awkward and unnecessary)

At this very meeting, an imp tied up in chains as a prisoner is leading a decision regarding who should be King (wow, what a bunch of spineless Lords). He chooses Bran and they all heed his suggestion. Then, instead of getting a sentence, he -- a Lannister -- is demanded to be the King's Hand rather than punished (mind you, Jon, a nobleman with kinship to the Lords present, is not given same treatment). The unsullied is content with this. This all was ridiculous, IMO.

The Unsullied, spending years following their Queen in battle to Westeros, see their Queen killed and are easily convinced to sail away to other lands. OK, bro.

Ary and Sansa, going to great lengths to fight and seek revenge for family for 8 seasons, decide to accept banishing Jon to the Night's Watch despite Bran now being King who just pardoned Tyrion - a f'ing Lannister. Furthermore, Arya and her great love of Jon and her Stark family, decides to abandon her family on a voyage to NOWHERE. Sansa and Bran love Jon, are so grateful for all he's done,and who now have tremendous power, but then justify his sentence as a necessary compromise. Warden of the North, heir to the Iron Trone that helped saved Westeros, will again be forced to live like a peasant in blue-balls Hell despite killing on his family's/hand direction and his family now being the King/Queen of Westeros/North. ROFL.

Dany finds herself with no guards in sight at the Iron Throne. Jon goes from a Dany sycophant to someone willing to kill her in a span of 6 minutes because of a conversation with Tyrion. Then Drogon for no apparent reason sets the iron throne ablaze.

Jon says goodbye to his "family" at the docks and it never occurs to them "hey, you don't have to do this, we're the King and Queen of Westeros and the North!" Hard to invoke a sincere emotional response form viewers over a goodbye that is ridiculously implausible.

Brienne mysteriously has access to adulterate Jaime's Wikipedia page.

Martin did say a big thing for him was showing evil/honor were ambiguous. Fair enough. The issue is characters were pawns in plot service, creating twists for the sake of twists itself. It's one thing to not have the endings you had in mind for these characters that you had in mind. The bigger thing was forcing characters and plots to an ending.



ducky23
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sycasey said:



That said, I will not disagree that the show could have used more time to build up the moral conflicts in these characters. The whole Jon-Dany storyline needed more room to breathe. I just don't think it's an example of moral black-white storytelling.


In my opinion, a morally ambiguous question was whether Ned should have gone to Cersei immediately after finding out the truth. Do you do the honorable thing and try to protect Cersei and her children's lives? Or do you act in the best interest of the greater good (and leave nothing to chance).

They were trying to draw parallels between Ned's decision and Jon's, but I'll argue jon's decision was much more black and white. In true D&d fashion, they explicitly state the question, duty or love? But that's not morally ambiguous. Only a selfish person would choose love in that situation. Whereas in Ned's situation, a "good person" could choose either. Like Sansa would've gone directly to the king while Jon probably would've gone to Cersei.
Sebastabear
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GBear4Life said:

Questions about plausibility of plot/characters:

What were Sam, Arya, Brienne and Bran doing at the rather odd meeting discussing terms? They are Lords of nothing. (And the inclusion of Sam and Edmere injecting their 2 cents and then getting clowned were awkward and unnecessary)

At this very meeting, an imp tied up in chains as a prisoner is leading a decision regarding who should be King (wow, what a bunch of spineless Lords). He chooses Bran and they all heed his suggestion. Then, instead of getting a sentence, he -- a Lannister -- is demanded to be the King's Hand rather than punished (mind you, Jon, a nobleman with kinship to the Lords present, is not given same treatment). The unsullied is content with this. This all was ridiculous, IMO.

The Unsullied, spending years following their Queen in battle to Westeros, see their Queen killed and are easily convinced to sail away to other lands. OK, bro.

Ary and Sansa, going to great lengths to fight and seek revenge for family for 8 seasons, decide to accept banishing Jon to the Night's Watch despite Bran now being King who just pardoned Tyrion - a f'ing Lannister. Furthermore, Arya and her great love of Jon and her Stark family, decides to abandon her family on a voyage to NOWHERE. Sansa and Bran love Jon, are so grateful for all he's done,and who now have tremendous power, but then justify his sentence as a necessary compromise. Warden of the North, heir to the Iron Trone that helped saved Westeros, will again be forced to live like a peasant in blue-balls Hell despite killing on his family's/hand direction and his family now being the King/Queen of Westeros/North. ROFL.

Dany finds herself with no guards in sight at the Iron Throne. Jon goes from a Dany sycophant to someone willing to kill her in a span of 6 minutes because of a conversation with Tyrion. Then Drogon for no apparent reason sets the iron throne ablaze.

Jon says goodbye to his "family" at the docks and it never occurs to them "hey, you don't have to do this, we're the King and Queen of Westeros and the North!" Hard to invoke a sincere emotional response form viewers over a goodbye that is ridiculously implausible.

Brienne mysteriously has access to adulterate Jaime's Wikipedia page.

Martin did say a big thing for him was showing evil/honor were ambiguous. Fair enough. The issue is characters were pawns in plot service, creating twists for the sake of twists itself. It's one thing to not have the endings you had in mind for these characters that you had in mind. The bigger thing was forcing characters and plots to an ending.




I could debate all of these with you (Sam is the head of House Tarly and a great lord in his own right, Brienne is Lord Commander of the Kingsguard and is the keeper of that "Wikipedia" where the histories of every member of the Kingsguard are recorded, etc) but ultimately that seems kind of pointless. Either you enjoyed the show or you didn't. You clearly did not and I won't convince you otherwise. Personally I thought they did a great job.
GMP
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GBear4Life said:

Questions about plausibility of plot/characters:

What were Sam, Arya, Brienne and Bran doing at the rather odd meeting discussing terms? They are Lords of nothing. (And the inclusion of Sam and Edmere injecting their 2 cents and then getting clowned were awkward and unnecessary)


I disagree with a lot of what you said, but - I also couldn't figure out why the entire Stark family was there. And I did not believe the other Lords would have simply let Sansa secede from the Seven Kingdoms with merely a shrug. That makes no sense.
ducky23
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GMP said:

GBear4Life said:

Questions about plausibility of plot/characters:

What were Sam, Arya, Brienne and Bran doing at the rather odd meeting discussing terms? They are Lords of nothing. (And the inclusion of Sam and Edmere injecting their 2 cents and then getting clowned were awkward and unnecessary)


I disagree with a lot of what you said, but - I also couldn't figure out why the entire Stark family was there. And I did not believe the other Lords would have simply let Sansa secede from the Seven Kingdoms with merely a shrug. That makes no sense.
My favorite part was the exchange between dany and jon.

Jon: why the hell did you burn all those innocent children!!!

dany: Cersei was using their innocence as a weapon against me

Jon (contemplates this answer, merely shrugs): ok that makes sense, but what about tyrion!!!
NYCGOBEARS
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So Jon shanked his hot boo for Bram and banishment to the cold azz far north? I'm pissed.
okaydo
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GBear4Life said:

Questions about plausibility of plot/characters:

What were Sam, Arya, Brienne and Bran doing at the rather odd meeting discussing terms? They are Lords of nothing. (And the inclusion of Sam and Edmere injecting their 2 cents and then getting clowned were awkward and unnecessary)

At this very meeting, an imp tied up in chains as a prisoner is leading a decision regarding who should be King (wow, what a bunch of spineless Lords). He chooses Bran and they all heed his suggestion. Then, instead of getting a sentence, he -- a Lannister -- is demanded to be the King's Hand rather than punished (mind you, Jon, a nobleman with kinship to the Lords present, is not given same treatment). The unsullied is content with this. This all was ridiculous, IMO.

The Unsullied, spending years following their Queen in battle to Westeros, see their Queen killed and are easily convinced to sail away to other lands. OK, bro.

Ary and Sansa, going to great lengths to fight and seek revenge for family for 8 seasons, decide to accept banishing Jon to the Night's Watch despite Bran now being King who just pardoned Tyrion - a f'ing Lannister. Furthermore, Arya and her great love of Jon and her Stark family, decides to abandon her family on a voyage to NOWHERE. Sansa and Bran love Jon, are so grateful for all he's done,and who now have tremendous power, but then justify his sentence as a necessary compromise. Warden of the North, heir to the Iron Trone that helped saved Westeros, will again be forced to live like a peasant in blue-balls Hell despite killing on his family's/hand direction and his family now being the King/Queen of Westeros/North. ROFL.

Dany finds herself with no guards in sight at the Iron Throne. Jon goes from a Dany sycophant to someone willing to kill her in a span of 6 minutes because of a conversation with Tyrion. Then Drogon for no apparent reason sets the iron throne ablaze.

Jon says goodbye to his "family" at the docks and it never occurs to them "hey, you don't have to do this, we're the King and Queen of Westeros and the North!" Hard to invoke a sincere emotional response form viewers over a goodbye that is ridiculously implausible.

Brienne mysteriously has access to adulterate Jaime's Wikipedia page.

Martin did say a big thing for him was showing evil/honor were ambiguous. Fair enough. The issue is characters were pawns in plot service, creating twists for the sake of twists itself. It's one thing to not have the endings you had in mind for these characters that you had in mind. The bigger thing was forcing characters and plots to an ending.





So they should start another war with the Unsullied and Dothraki just to free Jon, who probably thinks he deserves to be punished for killing the queen?

And, yeah, the people who used to follow Daenerys are going to accept that Jon is the true heir to the Iron Throne. Sure.

(I wonder why so many people think you can easily disrespect and sh*t on the Unsullied and Dothraki. I wonder why.)
dajo9
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golden sloth said:

dajo9 said:

It occurs to me that after the destruction of the last episode, maybe the Iron Throne no longer exists.


Westeros goes to an imperfect democracy, that would be a twist.


We were close to right?
American Vermin
sycasey
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okaydo said:

GBear4Life said:

Questions about plausibility of plot/characters:

What were Sam, Arya, Brienne and Bran doing at the rather odd meeting discussing terms? They are Lords of nothing. (And the inclusion of Sam and Edmere injecting their 2 cents and then getting clowned were awkward and unnecessary)

At this very meeting, an imp tied up in chains as a prisoner is leading a decision regarding who should be King (wow, what a bunch of spineless Lords). He chooses Bran and they all heed his suggestion. Then, instead of getting a sentence, he -- a Lannister -- is demanded to be the King's Hand rather than punished (mind you, Jon, a nobleman with kinship to the Lords present, is not given same treatment). The unsullied is content with this. This all was ridiculous, IMO.

The Unsullied, spending years following their Queen in battle to Westeros, see their Queen killed and are easily convinced to sail away to other lands. OK, bro.

Ary and Sansa, going to great lengths to fight and seek revenge for family for 8 seasons, decide to accept banishing Jon to the Night's Watch despite Bran now being King who just pardoned Tyrion - a f'ing Lannister. Furthermore, Arya and her great love of Jon and her Stark family, decides to abandon her family on a voyage to NOWHERE. Sansa and Bran love Jon, are so grateful for all he's done,and who now have tremendous power, but then justify his sentence as a necessary compromise. Warden of the North, heir to the Iron Trone that helped saved Westeros, will again be forced to live like a peasant in blue-balls Hell despite killing on his family's/hand direction and his family now being the King/Queen of Westeros/North. ROFL.

Dany finds herself with no guards in sight at the Iron Throne. Jon goes from a Dany sycophant to someone willing to kill her in a span of 6 minutes because of a conversation with Tyrion. Then Drogon for no apparent reason sets the iron throne ablaze.

Jon says goodbye to his "family" at the docks and it never occurs to them "hey, you don't have to do this, we're the King and Queen of Westeros and the North!" Hard to invoke a sincere emotional response form viewers over a goodbye that is ridiculously implausible.

Brienne mysteriously has access to adulterate Jaime's Wikipedia page.

Martin did say a big thing for him was showing evil/honor were ambiguous. Fair enough. The issue is characters were pawns in plot service, creating twists for the sake of twists itself. It's one thing to not have the endings you had in mind for these characters that you had in mind. The bigger thing was forcing characters and plots to an ending.





So they should start another war with the Unsullied and Dothraki just to free Jon, who probably thinks he deserves to be punished for killing the queen?

And, yeah, the people who used to follow Daenerys are going to accept that Jon is the true heir to the Iron Throne. Sure.

(I wonder why so many people think you can easily disrespect and sh*t on the Unsullied and Dothraki. I wonder why.)
Also, if people are thinking ahead, this is not really a punishment for Jon:

There are no more White Walkers (at least within the text of the show, though theoretically it's possible they could return). Jon has already formed an alliance with the Wildlings, so they aren't a threat either.

So what is there for the Night's Watch to even do anymore? Tyrion and crew basically gave him a free ticket to wander around north of the Wall wherever he wants.
sycasey
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GMP said:

GBear4Life said:

Questions about plausibility of plot/characters:

What were Sam, Arya, Brienne and Bran doing at the rather odd meeting discussing terms? They are Lords of nothing. (And the inclusion of Sam and Edmere injecting their 2 cents and then getting clowned were awkward and unnecessary)


I disagree with a lot of what you said, but - I also couldn't figure out why the entire Stark family was there. And I did not believe the other Lords would have simply let Sansa secede from the Seven Kingdoms with merely a shrug. That makes no sense.
I noticed the Vale sent a bunch of representatives too, so I guess it wasn't restricted to just one person from each region.

As for letting Sansa rule independently . . . as with many things, the show kind of yadda-yadda'd a lot of stuff they used to take time to explain, but I can work out a rationale:

The North has troops stationed outside the city. The Unsullied are also ready to fight and blame Jon for their problems, but the Northmen see Jon as their hero. This is a powder keg situation. Probably the rest of these people are already exhausted from Daenerys' mess and want to avoid further war. They bow to the Starks' leverage at this particular time to avoid further chaos.

The only one of these groups that was actively looking for independence was the Iron Islands (Yara agreed with Dany that she would get it for her alliance), but at that point the Greyjoys are not in a great position, given that Euron got their whole fleet destroyed. Plus Yara has made up with Theon at that point and knows Theon loved the Starks, and she may have realized at this point that Dany would never have kept her promise anyway. She goes along with it in the absence of better options.

I get the criticism though, because Season 1-5 of GoT probably would have spent multiple episodes laying all this out.
ducky23
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sycasey said:

okaydo said:

GBear4Life said:

Questions about plausibility of plot/characters:

What were Sam, Arya, Brienne and Bran doing at the rather odd meeting discussing terms? They are Lords of nothing. (And the inclusion of Sam and Edmere injecting their 2 cents and then getting clowned were awkward and unnecessary)

At this very meeting, an imp tied up in chains as a prisoner is leading a decision regarding who should be King (wow, what a bunch of spineless Lords). He chooses Bran and they all heed his suggestion. Then, instead of getting a sentence, he -- a Lannister -- is demanded to be the King's Hand rather than punished (mind you, Jon, a nobleman with kinship to the Lords present, is not given same treatment). The unsullied is content with this. This all was ridiculous, IMO.

The Unsullied, spending years following their Queen in battle to Westeros, see their Queen killed and are easily convinced to sail away to other lands. OK, bro.

Ary and Sansa, going to great lengths to fight and seek revenge for family for 8 seasons, decide to accept banishing Jon to the Night's Watch despite Bran now being King who just pardoned Tyrion - a f'ing Lannister. Furthermore, Arya and her great love of Jon and her Stark family, decides to abandon her family on a voyage to NOWHERE. Sansa and Bran love Jon, are so grateful for all he's done,and who now have tremendous power, but then justify his sentence as a necessary compromise. Warden of the North, heir to the Iron Trone that helped saved Westeros, will again be forced to live like a peasant in blue-balls Hell despite killing on his family's/hand direction and his family now being the King/Queen of Westeros/North. ROFL.

Dany finds herself with no guards in sight at the Iron Throne. Jon goes from a Dany sycophant to someone willing to kill her in a span of 6 minutes because of a conversation with Tyrion. Then Drogon for no apparent reason sets the iron throne ablaze.

Jon says goodbye to his "family" at the docks and it never occurs to them "hey, you don't have to do this, we're the King and Queen of Westeros and the North!" Hard to invoke a sincere emotional response form viewers over a goodbye that is ridiculously implausible.

Brienne mysteriously has access to adulterate Jaime's Wikipedia page.

Martin did say a big thing for him was showing evil/honor were ambiguous. Fair enough. The issue is characters were pawns in plot service, creating twists for the sake of twists itself. It's one thing to not have the endings you had in mind for these characters that you had in mind. The bigger thing was forcing characters and plots to an ending.





So they should start another war with the Unsullied and Dothraki just to free Jon, who probably thinks he deserves to be punished for killing the queen?

And, yeah, the people who used to follow Daenerys are going to accept that Jon is the true heir to the Iron Throne. Sure.

(I wonder why so many people think you can easily disrespect and sh*t on the Unsullied and Dothraki. I wonder why.)
Also, if people are thinking ahead, this is not really a punishment for Jon:

There are no more White Walkers (at least within the text of the show, though theoretically it's possible they could return). Jon has already formed an alliance with the Wildlings, so they aren't a threat either.

So what is there for the Night's Watch to even do anymore? Tyrion and crew basically gave him a free ticket to wander around north of the Wall wherever he wants.

For sure, D&D never intended it to be seen as a punishment. The Stark kids' endings were all supposed to be seen as "bitter-sweet"

- jon gets banished, but as the show has made abundantly clear, jon belongs in the "real" north anyways

- arya has to leave her family, but she gets to do her adventure stuff and fulfill her destiny

- sansa now has the heavy burden of leading, but shes also fulfilling her destiny

all a little too neat for me. but whatever, its fine. its all perfectly fine.

Again I could really care less about the end result. I care much more about how you get to the end result.
okaydo
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sycasey said:

okaydo said:

GBear4Life said:

Questions about plausibility of plot/characters:

What were Sam, Arya, Brienne and Bran doing at the rather odd meeting discussing terms? They are Lords of nothing. (And the inclusion of Sam and Edmere injecting their 2 cents and then getting clowned were awkward and unnecessary)

At this very meeting, an imp tied up in chains as a prisoner is leading a decision regarding who should be King (wow, what a bunch of spineless Lords). He chooses Bran and they all heed his suggestion. Then, instead of getting a sentence, he -- a Lannister -- is demanded to be the King's Hand rather than punished (mind you, Jon, a nobleman with kinship to the Lords present, is not given same treatment). The unsullied is content with this. This all was ridiculous, IMO.

The Unsullied, spending years following their Queen in battle to Westeros, see their Queen killed and are easily convinced to sail away to other lands. OK, bro.

Ary and Sansa, going to great lengths to fight and seek revenge for family for 8 seasons, decide to accept banishing Jon to the Night's Watch despite Bran now being King who just pardoned Tyrion - a f'ing Lannister. Furthermore, Arya and her great love of Jon and her Stark family, decides to abandon her family on a voyage to NOWHERE. Sansa and Bran love Jon, are so grateful for all he's done,and who now have tremendous power, but then justify his sentence as a necessary compromise. Warden of the North, heir to the Iron Trone that helped saved Westeros, will again be forced to live like a peasant in blue-balls Hell despite killing on his family's/hand direction and his family now being the King/Queen of Westeros/North. ROFL.

Dany finds herself with no guards in sight at the Iron Throne. Jon goes from a Dany sycophant to someone willing to kill her in a span of 6 minutes because of a conversation with Tyrion. Then Drogon for no apparent reason sets the iron throne ablaze.

Jon says goodbye to his "family" at the docks and it never occurs to them "hey, you don't have to do this, we're the King and Queen of Westeros and the North!" Hard to invoke a sincere emotional response form viewers over a goodbye that is ridiculously implausible.

Brienne mysteriously has access to adulterate Jaime's Wikipedia page.

Martin did say a big thing for him was showing evil/honor were ambiguous. Fair enough. The issue is characters were pawns in plot service, creating twists for the sake of twists itself. It's one thing to not have the endings you had in mind for these characters that you had in mind. The bigger thing was forcing characters and plots to an ending.





So they should start another war with the Unsullied and Dothraki just to free Jon, who probably thinks he deserves to be punished for killing the queen?

And, yeah, the people who used to follow Daenerys are going to accept that Jon is the true heir to the Iron Throne. Sure.

(I wonder why so many people think you can easily disrespect and sh*t on the Unsullied and Dothraki. I wonder why.)
Also, if people are thinking ahead, this is not really a punishment for Jon:

There are no more White Walkers (at least within the text of the show, though theoretically it's possible they could return). Jon has already formed an alliance with the Wildlings, so they aren't a threat either.

So what is there for the Night's Watch to even do anymore? Tyrion and crew basically gave him a free ticket to wander around north of the Wall wherever he wants.

Yeah, Jon got a truly happy ending. And he's such a noble guy that I don't think he could walk around free around Winterfell or King's Landing or whatever and be known as the "queenslayer." He expected and, possibly, wanted punishment.

Re: The Night's Watch: What were they doing at the beginning of the series? Was their job to stop the Wildlings? Because they didn't believe that one dude who saw a white walker in the opening scene.
GBear4Life
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okaydo said:




Yeah, Jon got a truly happy ending. And he's such a noble guy that I don't think he could walk around free around Winterfell or King's Landing or whatever and be known as the "queenslayer." He expected and, possibly, wanted punishment.
Seriously? Jon got the SHAFT in a way that was totally implausible (not simply because it's an "unfair" ending to a beloved character). The Lords would not have done that -- the Unsullied are leaving forever (also implausible, mind you).

Jon the bas t ard going to Night's watch in season 1 was odd enough, but Season 8 Jon going North of the Wall at the hands of his family and allies was absurd given all the variables at play, IMO.
GBear4Life
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ducky23 said:



My favorite part was the exchange between dany and jon.

Jon: why the hell did you burn all those innocent children!!!

dany: Cersei was using their innocence as a weapon against me

Jon (contemplates this answer, merely shrugs): ok that makes sense, but what about tyrion!!!
They gradually made Jon an impotent fool. It's a travesty, IMO.

Once Jon killed Dany, Greyworm would have killed Tyrion and Jon instantly, not wait an indeterminate amount of time (at least mulitple days) to 'consult' with the other Lords lmao

I thought a cool, very "GoT" thing to do with Jamie and Cersei was to have them successfully escape by boat in ep 5, and in ep 6 as they are letting their guard down in an obscure, far-away land, starting to realize the possibilities of a future in peace together and how they managed to escape an impossible situation, how they're grateful and content....and then a group of Unsullied assassins ambush them turn their joy into "ashes in their mouth".
GMP
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GBear4Life said:

ducky23 said:



My favorite part was the exchange between dany and jon.

Jon: why the hell did you burn all those innocent children!!!

dany: Cersei was using their innocence as a weapon against me

Jon (contemplates this answer, merely shrugs): ok that makes sense, but what about tyrion!!!
They gradually made Jon an impotent fool. It's a travesty, IMO.

Once Jon killed Dany, Greyworm would have killed Tyrion and Jon instantly, not wait an indeterminate amount of time (at least mulitple days) to 'consult' with the other Lords lmao

I thought a cool, very "GoT" thing to do with Jamie and Cersei was to have them successfully escape by boat in ep 5, and in ep 6 as they are letting their guard down in an obscure, far-away land, starting to realize the possibilities of a future in peace together and how they managed to escape an impossible situation, how they're grateful and content....and then a group of Unsullied assassins ambush them turn their joy into "ashes in their mouth".
I thought the same thing - how did that convo go with Jon and Greyworm? And why didn't Jon flee? Or lie? I guess that would be against his character, but it's hard to imagine Greyworm would just take Jon into custody and wait for his siblings (et al.) to arrive.
KenBurnski
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It was all a dream that played out in Bran's mind during the coma he falls into after seeing a sexual revolution and suffering the consequences.
sycasey
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GMP said:

GBear4Life said:

ducky23 said:



My favorite part was the exchange between dany and jon.

Jon: why the hell did you burn all those innocent children!!!

dany: Cersei was using their innocence as a weapon against me

Jon (contemplates this answer, merely shrugs): ok that makes sense, but what about tyrion!!!
They gradually made Jon an impotent fool. It's a travesty, IMO.

Once Jon killed Dany, Greyworm would have killed Tyrion and Jon instantly, not wait an indeterminate amount of time (at least mulitple days) to 'consult' with the other Lords lmao

I thought a cool, very "GoT" thing to do with Jamie and Cersei was to have them successfully escape by boat in ep 5, and in ep 6 as they are letting their guard down in an obscure, far-away land, starting to realize the possibilities of a future in peace together and how they managed to escape an impossible situation, how they're grateful and content....and then a group of Unsullied assassins ambush them turn their joy into "ashes in their mouth".
I thought the same thing - how did that convo go with Jon and Greyworm? And why didn't Jon flee? Or lie? I guess that would be against his character, but it's hard to imagine Greyworm would just take Jon into custody and wait for his siblings (et al.) to arrive.

Greyworm is a soldier who follows orders, and after Dany was killed there was not anyone clearly in charge. Once someone was named as the new king he ordered no execution.

Like much of what else happened, this was all very fast, but plausible IMO.
Sebastabear
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Episode drew in 13.6 million viewers (19.3 million with early streaming and replays). Those figures are bonkers for a paid subscription cable show.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-series-finale-sets-all-time-hbo-ratings-record-1212269
okaydo
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GBear4Life said:

ducky23 said:



My favorite part was the exchange between dany and jon.

Jon: why the hell did you burn all those innocent children!!!

dany: Cersei was using their innocence as a weapon against me

Jon (contemplates this answer, merely shrugs): ok that makes sense, but what about tyrion!!!
They gradually made Jon an impotent fool. It's a travesty, IMO.

Once Jon killed Dany, Greyworm would have killed Tyrion and Jon instantly, not wait an indeterminate amount of time (at least mulitple days) to 'consult' with the other Lords lmao

I thought a cool, very "GoT" thing to do with Jamie and Cersei was to have them successfully escape by boat in ep 5, and in ep 6 as they are letting their guard down in an obscure, far-away land, starting to realize the possibilities of a future in peace together and how they managed to escape an impossible situation, how they're grateful and content....and then a group of Unsullied assassins ambush them turn their joy into "ashes in their mouth".

Again, see my post this morning about Jon Snow. He's either considered a hero or an impotent fool by fans. The ending allowed him to be a hero AND impotent fool. But in the end, he got the ending he probably wanted.
GBear4Life
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okaydo said:




But in the end, he got the ending he probably wanted.
So you think he marches off to the night's watch on his own volition after killing Dany? Interesting theory.
socalBear23
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I thought the show ended pretty well. Couple of things I wish would have happened. Jon killing the night king. Arya killing Cersei. And holy hell how does Tyrian survive? An unclear command from one of the Lords and boom, grey worm cuts his head off. Everyone else, even Jon had a good ending to their perspective arcs.

sycasey
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GBear4Life said:

okaydo said:




But in the end, he got the ending he probably wanted.
So you think he marches off to the night's watch on his own volition after killing Dany? Interesting theory.
I think the implication is that he always liked living beyond the Wall (in the "True North" as Tormund put it) and this gives him an opportunity to do that.
MSaviolives
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GBear4Life said:

ducky23 said:



My favorite part was the exchange between dany and jon.

Jon: why the hell did you burn all those innocent children!!!

dany: Cersei was using their innocence as a weapon against me

Jon (contemplates this answer, merely shrugs): ok that makes sense, but what about tyrion!!!
They gradually made Jon an impotent fool. It's a travesty, IMO.

Once Jon killed Dany, Greyworm would have killed Tyrion and Jon instantly, not wait an indeterminate amount of time (at least mulitple days) to 'consult' with the other Lords lmao

I thought a cool, very "GoT" thing to do with Jamie and Cersei was to have them successfully escape by boat in ep 5, and in ep 6 as they are letting their guard down in an obscure, far-away land, starting to realize the possibilities of a future in peace together and how they managed to escape an impossible situation, how they're grateful and content....and then a group of Unsullied assassins ambush them turn their joy into "ashes in their mouth".
OneKeg
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Overall, I felt many of the final outcomes in the TV show are ones that a great story could reach. But ever since it went beyond the actual written book source material (and sometimes even before that) the TV show has been a great spectacle but a mediocre/hollow story at best. More on the level of a standard decent-budget action movie. And that's ok. The actors were still good and some of the scenes were still breathtaking. On balance, I'm glad I watched it.

Many of these things could have been outcomes that a great story reaches with better plot development:

- Dany/Mad Queen. There are Dany fans everywhere upset that their beloved queen ended up being a monster, which is funny because she absolutely could. There were signs and hints of it. Maybe there was enough setup with her feeling grief and betrayal to explain her hearing the bells and then angrily thinking "F this." Making a beeline for the Red Keep to burn down Cersei. Maybe accidentally igniting a bunch of Cersei's wildfire caches in the process and inadvertently burning down the whole city as collateral damage. And then getting blamed for it of course. But the show had not laid enough groundwork for her just methodically napalming all the civilians in King's Landing, actually not even going for Cersei until the very end. She could have gotten to that further point of crazy to nuke/"liberate" everything, but they didn't lay enough groundwork.

- Jon. If they had set all that up, I could see Jon getting convinced to kill Dany. And I could see Jon getting to a situation plot-wise where he accepted being sent (back) to the Wall as punishment. It kind of fits. Hell, it even slightly makes sense as a twist of the Azor Azhai prophecy. But only if you tell a story that gets there in a somewhat believable way. I don't see Arya or Sansa remaining quiet with John being sent to the Wall, knowing what they know about his being the "rightful" heir. Not without conflict. And I don't see Grey Worm or the magically-regenerating Dothraki accepting a foreign (Westerosi) punishment that would seem like an overly-lenient send-off for Jon who had killed their leader/goddess. Why would they even believe that he would actually go through with the exile and not return once convenient after they were gone? Again - it's a believable outcome eventually, but not without complicated conflict and resolution.

- Tyrion. And yeah, why the F would anyone listen to anything Tyrion had to say at this point. I mean they could and should because he's worth listening to probably in this situation. But you'd need the plot to justify why the actual characters would not just tell him to F off.

- Arya. Sure Arya might sail away west in a good story. There have been Starks in the past that did that and other characters in GRRM's backstory (Elissa Farman). in the books, if you pay attention to Arya's time in Braavos when she is "interning" for the Faceless Men as a spy working for a fishmonger's family, it's one of her happiest times, hanging out with all the sailors and dockworkers and ladies of the evening. I could see that being her way of riding off into the sunset. But the show did nothing to set it up - it came out of nowhere.

Lots more such situations. Again, the final outcomes might be ok, and in fact, are likely similar to the final bittersweet/imperfect outcomes in the books if somehow GRRM ever finishes them. Just not a true-to-character/true-to-world-building great story to support those outcomes except in a simple regular movie sense where we can gloss over tons of things.

And much of the audience may end up being happy with that. And I guess so am I, since the show is what the show is. The show-runners ultimately were great at the spectacle and shock aspects, but mostly just mediocre at the storytelling once the story passed the books by. Kind of like the cool sets you see if you go to Universal Studios. Nice to look at, visually cool if you let your mind accept them, just nothing behind them if you poke your finger through or walk around to the other side.
-------------------------------
Aside on the Brienne accessing Jaime's "Wikipedia" - that's the "White Book" of the Kingsguard (the 7 knights selected to guard the King or Queen for life ever since Westeros had a single monarch starting with the Targaryens). It's kept by the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard in the tower of the Kingsguard (White Sword Tower). Every Lord Commander keeps all the accomplishments, honors, failures and other circumstances of every knight that ever served in the Kingsguard. Of course most show-watchers barely know what the Kingsguard is. By the end Cersei seemed to have only 1 Kingsguard, not 7 (undead Gregor Clegane).

At the start of book 1/season 1, the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard is Ser Barristan Selmy (Barristan the Bold) who in the books is old but a complete badass and still alive (albeit about to ride into a 3-front battle). Of course in the series, Ser Barristan gets killed by a bunch of Katy Perry backup singers in gold masks in Mereen. Ser Barristan had been relieved of duty and dismissed from the Kingsguard by Joffrey (one mistake among many by the boy king) and replaced by Jaime Lannister in book/season 1. When Jaime gets to Kings Landing in book 3/season 4, there is an important scene/chapter where he writes in the book for the first time and comes clean about himself to some extent (partial redemption for him). So the implication in the show is that Brienne is now not just the only female knight, but that Bran has made her Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. So she opens the White Book to finish Jaime's story. And to start her own chapter.
-------------------------------

Damn, is it football season yet? Go Bears!
GBear4Life
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sycasey said:


I think the implication is that he always liked living beyond the Wall (in the "True North" as Tormund put it) and this gives him an opportunity to do that.
What indication do we have that he ever liked "living beyond the Wall".

You mean when he was pretending to want to be a Wildling to avoid death, only in short order make his way back south of the Wall and ditching his Wildling brothers? Was it the time he spent fending off white walkers that he loved so much?

The only fond memory he has north of the Wall is getting laid in a magically warm pool in the middle of polar ice.

Even accepting your premise, why would Season 8 Jon, after getting laid by Grade A talent in Dany, discovering his true identity, and becoming the most beloved man in Westeros -- in the North, his home -- would welcome such a fate? No woman, no title, no property, no nothing. Just back to living like a homeless person, pis sing and shi tting in holes in the ground.

I suppose, given what they've done to his character, he is capable of doing, thinking, and feeling just about anything at any given time for no rhyme or reason.
ducky23
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OneKeg said:

Kind of like the cool sets you see if you go to Universal Studios. Nice to look at, visually cool if you let your mind accept them, just nothing behind them if you poke your finger through or walk around to the other side.

that's a nice way of putting it.

i know this isn't exactly what you were talking about, but compare universal studios to disneyland (i worked at disneyland long ago so I'm biased)

at first glance, to your average person, when you look at universal and look at disneyland, its more or less the same. but disneyland has so much more depth, there is so much detail hidden in disneyland that no one even notices. and there's a back story to every little detail. and its those little details that makes a world of difference. universal is just a pretty facade.

GOT looks pretty but they forgot the details that made the first few seasons amazing
wifeisafurd
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okaydo said:

wifeisafurd said:

BulaBear3cubs said:

Left obviously wide open for another series spinoff or sequel in the future...kinda disappointed in the ending.
Supposedly (Steven King tweet), Ayra has a spin-off and there is a prequel. The show runners for GOT will not be involved with either. They are moving on to a new show named "Confederate."
Confederate is basically dead, but not officially. Too controversial. And they're working on a Star Wars.
Yes, that is the latest. They moved on to Star Wars.
okaydo
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I find the David Benioff and D.B. Weiss rise fascinating. Weiss had about 0 experience working in TV and movies. Benioff had written a few movies, including Spike Lee's The 25th Hour

But HBO had confidence in them, even after their disastrous pilot.

I thought a lot about their rise when Apple was introducing Apple TV+, and they were rolling out big names. It was all about big shiny names -- Steven Spielberg! J.J. Abrams! Reese Witherspoon. But while they've all been successful, the success of Game of Thrones came from nobodies.

I mean, say what you want about how terrible the final seasons have been, but they are responsible for making it a hit series, especially with the people they hired. Yes, George R.R. Martin wrote the novels, but they were considered unadaptable. And in others' hands, they might be totally different.

Anyways, I was thinking of them while reading a recent profile of the third wheel, Bryan Cogman, in Vanity Fair.

It offers good insight in their working process, and strengths and weakensses.

I'll post the article below:

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/05/bryan-cogman-game-of-thrones#~o




Quote:

More than 10 years ago, Weiss and Benioff had finally convinced both HBO and Martin that they were the right pick to turn Game of Thrones into what they called "The Sopranos meets Middle-earth." But they had a problem: neither of them knew the first thing about TV. Luckily, Benioff knew someone who didhis nanny's husband.

Once just another Juilliard-trained actor struggling to make it in Hollywood, Cogman first caught Benioff's eye with a script about, well, struggling actors trying to make it in Hollywood. Fed up with jobs that include a telemarketing gig in the Valley selling toner cartridgesa job that theater nerd Cogman describes as "like Glengarry Glen Ross, but worse"and with watching former classmates like Lee Pace and Anthony Mackie smile down at him from 14-foot billboards, the then 28-year-old Cogman was attempting to re-write his way out of a familiar story of Hollywood despair.

Benioff, best known at the time for well-received novels such as the one he adapted into the 2002 Spike Lee movie 25th Hour, liked what he saw but didn't have a job for Cogman yet. So he called in a favor to his childhood friend NBC Entertainment co-chairman Ben Silverman and landed Cogman a job as the executive's assistant (there were two others) and driver. Cogman nearly wrecked Silverman's car on his second night behind the wheel.

"You're a terrible driver," Cogman recalls Silverman saying, "but I like hanging out with you." Perhaps in an attempt to protect the paint on his other cars, Silverman eventually got his driver a writers'-assistant job, fetching coffee and the like, on an NBC show: My Own Worst Enemy,which ended after just two months, in December 2008.

However short-lived, the show was an education for Cogman in the basics of breaking a story for television. When Weiss and Benioff snapped up Cogman as their own assistant, they set up shop in a dingy suite of now demolished offices on the former Pickford-Fairbanks Studios lot and asked the guy who thought he was just there to fetch lunches where they should start.

"I got my marker and David sat in his chair and Dan sat in his," Cogman remembers. Without any other staff hired, the three of them went to work figuring out how to introduce TV audiences to the scheming Lannisters, the honorable Starks, the looming Wall, Daenerys Targaryen and her three baby dragons. "None of us knew really what we were doing. No one was really bothering us or telling us we were doing it wrong. We cooked up Season One, the three of us in that room in the winter and early spring of 2009."


okaydo
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okaydo
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May 13.

GBear4Life
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So the show runners admit they had no idea what they were doing...they had the luxury of adapting source material...and when that material ran out, gradually taking the show into the dumps (based on deteriorating character development and behaviors, story arcs and plot holes, not personal preference). Season 8 is what happens when you charge closing the big sale to the guy who's already given his two weeks notice. D&D were offered 10 episodes, 10+ seasons and a blank check. There's nothing wrong with enjoying critically panned television. Remember Seinfeld after Larry David left? It was terrible, but I still loved it.
okaydo
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GBear4Life said:

So the show runners admit they had no idea what they were doing...they had the luxury of adapting source material...and when that material ran out, gradually taking the show into the dumps (based on deteriorating character development and behaviors, story arcs and plot holes, not personal preference). Season 8 is what happens when you charge closing the big sale to the guy who's already given his two weeks notice. D&D were offered 10 episodes, 10+ seasons and a blank check. There's nothing wrong with enjoying critically panned television. Remember Seinfeld after Larry David left? It was terrible, but I still loved it.

A timeline:

October 2017: Emilia Clarke received the final season scripts, including the series finale. (source)

February 2018: Benioff and Weiss are announced as Star Wars directors. (source)


okaydo
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