OT: So, who is getting their power shut off?

5,305 Views | 155 Replies | Last: 2 days ago by going4roses
GBear4Life
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Well, how will all the boujee liberal Californians fill their labor shortages without importing domestic and foreign cheap labor? They have lawns and pools that need to be maintained, and low-wage jobs to fill to profit from.

California is a pretty versatile state. They have something and someplace for almost everyone.
Sonofafurd
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MSaviolives said:

MSaviolives said:

I can't get over the fact that PG&E has given clear notice that it intended to implement these blackouts for many months, and yet suddenly yesterday--for the first time and only hours before the expected blackout--Caltrans says that it can't keep the tunnels open. So a scramble ensues, apparently resulting in PG&E bringing in generators. Is there any explanation other than that nobody at Caltrans thought of this problem until yesterday morning?
Answering my own question, apparently Caltrans didn't foresee that power in both CoCo and Alameda Counties might be shut down at the same time.




I see where Caltrans is coming from. It's a real bear for earthquakes to get permission to cross county lines.
concernedparent
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Golden One said:

concernedparent said:

Golden One said:

95bears said:

So all my friends from 2nd and 3rd world countries are giving us unsolicited advice (because Americans are panzies) on what to do in terms of ice, batteries, gasoline in our cars, heating, etc.

Rad! I am so proud to be a native Californian. We've done a great job handling our top world economy. **** Yes!!!! Go Bears!!!!

P.S. One of these people's dad's was #2 in Peru and can't believe this is happening in the U.S.

California is slowly but steadily becoming a third world country. Homelessness sky rocketing, housing out of reach for a large percentage of the population, widespread power outages, rampant use of illegal and prescription drugs, public schools among the worst in the U.S., doctor shortages, etc. As a native Californian, I hate to see how our state has deteriorated due to extremely poor political leadership for many years now.
You act like these aren't big problems all across the country. You also act like these aren't also by-products of federal policy and agglomerations of local policies.
Except for illegal drugs and prescription drug abuse, these are NOT problems all across the country. Sky rocketing housing costs, worst public schools in the U.S., widespread power outages, and crumbling freeways are primarily California problems. Homelessness also seems to be worse in California than in other states.
Seattle, Portland, Austin, New York, Boston, D.C. etc. Literally any major city with a thriving economy is increasingly unaffordable. Crumbling infrastructure and utility problems are not uniquely a CA thing either. Go anywhere that isn't a brand new subdivision and that will be evident. I haven't seen CA at the bottom of any of these education rankings. And if it is, the root causes of the problem are a lot more complicated than just poor state leadership. It's also the product of insane income disparity and local land use controls. Poor educational outcomes generally is however, a national issue, see literally every study of schools among developed countries.

CA is not perfect, in many respects it is quite problematic, but singling it for "steadily becoming a third world country" is just silly unless you're willing to say the United States on whole is too. Maybe it is in your eyes, but given your posting history I don't think that's the point you are trying to make here.
operbear
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PG&E" We will cut off power to East Bay Hills at noon Wednesday>"
Now 12:43 pm, still power. And still air. And moderate humidity, apiracy thnd
rather cool. And the weather forecasts for the last week prognosticated
this weather for yesterday, today, and the rest of the week.
So for all of those with conspiracy theories about PG&E, you are on the right
track, and I am right with you!
Operbear
sycasey
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operbear said:

PG&E" We will cut off power to East Bay Hills at noon Wednesday>"
Now 12:43 pm, still power. And still air. And moderate humidity, apiracy thnd
rather cool. And the weather forecasts for the last week prognosticated
this weather for yesterday, today, and the rest of the week.
So for all of those with conspiracy theories about PG&E, you are on the right
track, and I am right with you!
Outages delayed:

https://abc7news.com/weather/2nd-round-of-pg-e-outages-starts-in-bay-area/5604876/
MSaviolives
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Sonofafurd said:

MSaviolives said:

MSaviolives said:

I can't get over the fact that PG&E has given clear notice that it intended to implement these blackouts for many months, and yet suddenly yesterday--for the first time and only hours before the expected blackout--Caltrans says that it can't keep the tunnels open. So a scramble ensues, apparently resulting in PG&E bringing in generators. Is there any explanation other than that nobody at Caltrans thought of this problem until yesterday morning?
Answering my own question, apparently Caltrans didn't foresee that power in both CoCo and Alameda Counties might be shut down at the same time.




I see where Caltrans is coming from. It's a real bear for earthquakes to get permission to cross county lines.
For some context, 160,000 vehicles go through the Caldecott Tunnel on weekdays. And yet, Caltrans didn't see this coming as an issue that might need to be addressed in advance...go figure.
going4roses
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Who is paying for this ?

https://sf.curbed.com/2019/10/8/20905932/pge-bart-blackout-power-outages-transit-transportation-muni
CannonBlast
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Sonofafurd said:


I see where Caltrans is coming from. It's a real bear for earthquakes to get permission to cross county lines.
I spit my post-meal coffee on this one. well played.
Big C
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Absolutely RIDICULOUS to shut down the power for millions of people because there might POSSIBLY be a fire. This seems to be a way for PG&E to say, "See what's going to happen if we don't get this liability situation fixed up?" (and it SHOULD be fixed, btw)

East Bay here. Suppose the entire East Bay was without power for 3 days: Imagine the economic cost. Businesses closed, etc. Not to mention personal hardships. What, three million meals thrown out due to food spoilage? Starting the second day, lootings. Maybe riots, after that. And not to PREVENT a devastating fire, just to lower the possibility of one. One that may never happen anyway.

PG&E should be REALLY liable for any hardships that occur when they shut the power down on purpose.

For a small fraction of that price, they could hire a several thousand people to stand alert at the "hot spots" and keep everyone on emergency standby for 48 hrs.

Meanwhile, ZERO wind here this morning. Was in Montclair at 11 AM: An ever-so-slight breeze. Looking out my window now (1:25 PM): Same. A few leaves gently fluttering, most are still-as-a-corpse.

Craziest "public policy" decision ever.
Golden One
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sycasey said:

Golden One said:

concernedparent said:

Golden One said:

95bears said:

So all my friends from 2nd and 3rd world countries are giving us unsolicited advice (because Americans are panzies) on what to do in terms of ice, batteries, gasoline in our cars, heating, etc.

Rad! I am so proud to be a native Californian. We've done a great job handling our top world economy. **** Yes!!!! Go Bears!!!!

P.S. One of these people's dad's was #2 in Peru and can't believe this is happening in the U.S.

California is slowly but steadily becoming a third world country. Homelessness sky rocketing, housing out of reach for a large percentage of the population, widespread power outages, rampant use of illegal and prescription drugs, public schools among the worst in the U.S., doctor shortages, etc. As a native Californian, I hate to see how our state has deteriorated due to extremely poor political leadership for many years now.
You act like these aren't big problems all across the country. You also act like these aren't also by-products of federal policy and agglomerations of local policies.
Except for illegal drugs and prescription drug abuse, these are NOT problems all across the country. Sky rocketing housing costs, worst public schools in the U.S., widespread power outages, and crumbling freeways are primarily California problems. Homelessness also seems to be worse in California than in other states.
Normally I wouldn't dignify you with a response, but this is some Grade-A bulls*** that needs to be refuted.

1. California doesn't have the worst public schools. Alabama does. CA is not particularly close to the bottom, even when you remove higher education from the picture.
http://worldpopulationreview.com/states/public-school-rankings-by-state/

2. Not sure about freeways and power grids specifically, but crumbling infrastructure definitely is a problem all over the country. It is not California-specific, though certain environmental problems (like wildfires) may well be. Other states have their own issues with hurricanes, tornadoes, blizzards, etc.
https://www.businessinsider.com/asce-gives-us-infrastructure-a-d-2017-3

As for housing costs, I refer to my earlier comment: "No one wants to live there! It's too crowded!"
I'll take your advice and not dignify your BS with a response.
sycasey
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Golden One said:

sycasey said:

Golden One said:

concernedparent said:

Golden One said:

95bears said:

So all my friends from 2nd and 3rd world countries are giving us unsolicited advice (because Americans are panzies) on what to do in terms of ice, batteries, gasoline in our cars, heating, etc.

Rad! I am so proud to be a native Californian. We've done a great job handling our top world economy. **** Yes!!!! Go Bears!!!!

P.S. One of these people's dad's was #2 in Peru and can't believe this is happening in the U.S.

California is slowly but steadily becoming a third world country. Homelessness sky rocketing, housing out of reach for a large percentage of the population, widespread power outages, rampant use of illegal and prescription drugs, public schools among the worst in the U.S., doctor shortages, etc. As a native Californian, I hate to see how our state has deteriorated due to extremely poor political leadership for many years now.
You act like these aren't big problems all across the country. You also act like these aren't also by-products of federal policy and agglomerations of local policies.
Except for illegal drugs and prescription drug abuse, these are NOT problems all across the country. Sky rocketing housing costs, worst public schools in the U.S., widespread power outages, and crumbling freeways are primarily California problems. Homelessness also seems to be worse in California than in other states.
Normally I wouldn't dignify you with a response, but this is some Grade-A bulls*** that needs to be refuted.

1. California doesn't have the worst public schools. Alabama does. CA is not particularly close to the bottom, even when you remove higher education from the picture.
http://worldpopulationreview.com/states/public-school-rankings-by-state/

2. Not sure about freeways and power grids specifically, but crumbling infrastructure definitely is a problem all over the country. It is not California-specific, though certain environmental problems (like wildfires) may well be. Other states have their own issues with hurricanes, tornadoes, blizzards, etc.
https://www.businessinsider.com/asce-gives-us-infrastructure-a-d-2017-3

As for housing costs, I refer to my earlier comment: "No one wants to live there! It's too crowded!"
I'll take your advice and not dignify your BS with a response.

Apology accepted.
bearister
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Big C said:

Absolutely RIDICULOUS to shut down the power for millions of people because there might POSSIBLY be a fire. This seems to be a way for PG&E to say, "See what's going to happen if we don't get this liability situation fixed up?" (and it SHOULD be fixed, btw)

East Bay here. Suppose the entire East Bay was without power for 3 days: Imagine the economic cost. Businesses closed, etc. Not to mention personal hardships. What, three million meals thrown out due to food spoilage? Starting the second day, lootings. Maybe riots, after that. And not to PREVENT a devastating fire, just to lower the possibility of one. One that may never happen anyway.

PG&E should be REALLY liable for any hardships that occur when they shut the power down on purpose.

For a small fraction of that price, they could hire a several thousand people to stand alert at the "hot spots" and keep everyone on emergency standby for 48 hrs.

Meanwhile, ZERO wind here this morning. Was in Montclair at 11 AM: An ever-so-slight breeze. Looking out my window now (1:25 PM): Same. A few leaves gently fluttering, most are still-as-a-corpse.

Craziest "public policy" decision ever.



Reposted:
" On January 13, 2012, an independent audit from the State of California issued a report stating that PG&E had illegally diverted over $100 million from a fund used for safety operations, and instead used it for executive compensation and bonuses." Naider, Eric (January 13, 2012). "PG&E diverted safety money for profit, bonuses". San Francisco Chronicle.

Ladies and Gentleman of the jury, I REST MY CASE.


PG&E Executives Don't Deserve Bonuses - Beyond Chron

http://beyondchron.org/pge-executives-dont-deserve-bonuses/
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
sycasey
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sycasey
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bearister
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PG&E is less than one-third done with its 2019 tree-trimming work - SFChronicle.com


https://www.sfchronicle.com/business/article/PG-E-is-less-than-one-third-done-with-its-2019-14483596.php


Has PG&E ever lagged behind when it came to disbursing millions in bonuses to its executives?
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
bearister
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sycasey said:




PG&E barricade manned by Academi contractors.

Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Cal84
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Things are definitely messed up in this country. The politicians are a**holes. The business people are crooks. And if you've traveled widely across the world you realize...

...the USA is still somewhat better than average.

Twenty years ago that gap was larger, but the rest of the world is catching up. Slowly. Good for them. I think.
sycasey
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I'm just wondering when this severe wind is supposed to arrive. I can't find any online forecasts saying that the East Bay will receive winds in excess of 20 mph.
LunchTime
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MSaviolives said:

MSaviolives said:

I can't get over the fact that PG&E has given clear notice that it intended to implement these blackouts for many months, and yet suddenly yesterday--for the first time and only hours before the expected blackout--Caltrans says that it can't keep the tunnels open. So a scramble ensues, apparently resulting in PG&E bringing in generators. Is there any explanation other than that nobody at Caltrans thought of this problem until yesterday morning?
Answering my own question, apparently Caltrans didn't foresee that power in both CoCo and Alameda Counties might be shut down at the same time.


Everyone knows that disasters respect political boundaries.

What shakes in Oakland, stays in Oakland.
wifeisafurd
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sp4149 said:

wifeisafurd said:

Going a different direction. In SoCal, the trend among people with means is to cut the cord from SCE. It has nothing to do with cuts in service due to fires - that is a NorCal thing. It is that SCE costs a lot for connections for a new house and also causes significant construction delays which in large houses means a lot of additional costs. So owners go solar with back-up batteries and have found this reliable and cost-effective. About half the major remodels/new houses in the area we live in OC have gone the way. With black-outs in NorCal, wondering why people are not going that way (or maybe they are)? My guess is that in the long run as technology improves and becomes cheaper, power companies in warm areas will go under or be expensive alternatives just for the poor. Might add the environment does a lot better with this approach.


As the country trends to daytime renewables, the price for darktime energy (those 4-9 peak time commercials) will skyrocket. Battery backup technology is a generation (developmental) away from being effective for middle class households. Right now solar installation companies are warranteeing solar panels for 25 years and batteries for no more than ten years. Solar power battery disclosures indicate a 10% annual reduction in storage capacity. Basically after five years you may be at half original storage and after ten years you have a dead battery. When batteries have the same long term performance expectations as solar panels, they may allow you to go off grid completely.

However the infrastructure will have to remain in place for at least a generation and it's maintenance will have to be paid for by ALL. Most likely this will be by creation of special districts to own, operate and manage the electrical infrastructure. Just like your taxes pay for roads if you do not drive, schools if you don't have children, fire protection if you don't start fires, the maintenance of the electrical distribution grid will have to be paid by a tax assessment, not in utility rates, Take a look at your utility bill, subtract out the cost of the purchased utility (electrical), the remainder is the cost of maintenance of the utility system. Going off the grid means that someone else subsidizes your cost of street lights, traffic lights, drainage pumps, etc... within their utitilty bill. Sooner or later ratepayers are going to demand that the infrastructure costs for services that benefit the entire community, must be paid by everyone in the community.

Whither the future? Do we continue to allow the off-the-grid types to benefit from services they don't reimburse?
Maybe we designate properties as do not assist; no fire or police, medical, or emergency response; let them burn, slide, flood, to protect adjacent areas that want protection. Afterwards the local government can neutralize the property as a public nuisance without reimbursement to the property owners. The Grump's proposal for infrastructure was 'privatize'; not working now, little hope for the future. Radical changes needed.
Where to begin:

A $75K battery on a several million dollar house, which in the Bay Area is not much house, just doesn't make that much difference, especially when your connection costs and dealing with the utility during construction will cost more. One problem with urban California is trying to determine what is middle class?

A $75K add on for "middle class" in most states is not cost-effective, where housing costs in the hundred of thousands of dollars in sales price and you are not soaked by the utility company.

The technology is changing and I agree that by the next generation batteries are going to be available for most homes, and likely will be included in new homes in warm weather areas. Also the investor owned utilities will be stuck with poor customers, and probably will use their political power to have the state subsidize their rapidly outdated investment in power grids, with the costs, as usual, passed on to taxpayers. OTOH, good old liberal California may take the approach that it has on cars, and instead subsidize lower income folks to buy batteries, leaving those big bad utility companies to change their business model, probably through bankruptcy reorgs, while the government invests in solar and solar batteries (and passes the cost on to taxpayers). Certainly, an argument can be made this is the most green approach.

The comment on current battery length is a little more nuanced than presented. The typical battery is warrantied for 5,000 cycles or 10 years at 70 percent of its original capacity. This means they manufacture is guarantying that at the end of the warranty, the battery will have lost no more than 30 percent of its original ability to store energy. I think you will find the conventional thinking is that today's batteries will last around 15 years before it is optimal to replace them; of course, that will vary in each situation and we are talking about projections. (As an example, you can go on line and look at the EnergySage warranty and discussion).


The interesting thing is the change in technology, as everyone is now developing and manufacturing solar battery products, from automotive companies to tech startups. The auto makers may not offer the most revolutionary technology, but probably have a more long lasting product.. By contrast, the tech compaines have new high-performing technology (they can even integrate with the utility's feed to have consistent level of energy always, thereby protecting equipment from spikes, brown-outs, etc. but less of a track record on long-term functionality. But the pace of improvement in batteries is accelerating because of all the different companies entering the field. And the reason for entering the field is everyone thinks the way the world is going solar and towards cutting the cord from utilities.





Big C
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A several million dollar house in the Bay Area is "not much house"? Maybe in Atherton. (Of course, how many IS several, anyway? I say four, minimum, because 3-4 is "a few", which is less than several.)

Meanwhile, it's 5:45 in the East Bay and there is only a very slight breeze blowing.
going4roses
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This is Bull ****
sycasey
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So now it looks like the high winds haven't arrived, and PG&E's decision on when to cut power to the East Bay is one big shrug.

https://www.sfgate.com/california-wildfires/article/PGE-update-Power-may-come-back-on-for-those-up-14505372.php
Big C
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8:12 PM, several miles from CMS: There is a birch tree next to my house... you know, little, tiny, fragile leaves that blow in the wind. There is NO wind right now. A calm autumn evening!

I believe this was contrived bs from PG&E, to get sympathy for their plight. Their plight (being held liable for all the fires) is legitimate. Manufacturing this supposed shut-down was not. Coulda been worse: They coulda gone through with it everywhere. Instead, they did it "just enough".
GBear4Life
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man, what a disaster.
wifeisafurd
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Big C said:

A several million dollar house in the Bay Area is "not much house"? Maybe in Atherton. (Of course, how many IS several, anyway? I say four, minimum, because 3-4 is "a few", which is less than several.)

Meanwhile, it's 5:45 in the East Bay and there is only a very slight breeze blowing.
Thinking $2 to 3 milloin in cost. Lot fo areas that doesn't buy much in the Bay Area.
NVBear78
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I'm in the Napa Valley and my power is still out. Had a slight breeze at 4 PM today but no other wind.

Couldn't believe they pulled the plug at Midnight last night-humidity was 70 percent and it was cool and calm. The forecast last night was for no wind and no decrease in humidity until noon today. And as we saw that never happened.

Don't understand the reasoning at all in shutting down last night???
sycasey
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PG&E's attempt to avoid trouble is just going to get them in more trouble.
Blueblood
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I think that my power isgoingto get shut down....which means no more posting form me for awaile. That's too badbecause I was goi
going4roses
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https://www.arcgis.com/apps/Cascade/index.html?appid=cb0658a472664835aa4defffc6d6868b


Interesting enough I'm using ArcGIS for both my policy and data analysis courses. One of which was canceled because of the power issues.
going4roses
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Those responsible ain't worth a squirt of piss

https://www.kqed.org/news/11737336/judge-pge-paid-out-stock-dividends-instead-of-trimming-trees
Big Dog
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from the above referenced article:

Quote:

The judge postponed any decision on a plan to require the utility to de-energize power lines during high winds, explaining that he wants to see what the California Public Utilities Commission which regulates PG&E decides on the issue.

Bingo!

All commissioners of the PUC are appointed by Governors (six-year terms). Don't understand why the press has not called Gavin Newsom ("I'm outraged over the blackouts...") to task over this. The buck stops with Newsom and his predecessors.

For that matter, the federal judge is doing a little grandstanding as PG&E's budget is approved by the PUC, so any profits (aka dividends) paid out are also approved by the State.

https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/commissioners/




sycasey
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Looks like the high winds finally did arrive just before 11pm last night and power was shut off for some people. A grass fire started and was contained near Moraga.

https://www.sfgate.com/weather/article/PGE-power-shutoff-phase-two-Bay-Area-14506358.php

https://www.ktvu.com/news/evacuations-ordered-in-wildfire-near-st-marys-college

I guess it's good that the late arriving winds mean the outage will be shorter than expected, so that's good. The general confusion about what is happening through every step of the process, not so good.
burritos
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How much would it cost to have a fleet of jetliners with fire ******ant at the ready, and some flying in the air during high risk times to snuff out fires? It can't be more expensive than rebuilding entire cities every other year can it? Aren't they retiring a bunch of passenger planes with the new planes all the time? Any chance to retask this retiring fleet for such a purpose?
sp4149
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Down in La Quinta today
Winds in the mountains forecast up to 70mph
Humidity extremely low up to 5%
Imperial Irrigation (local electric company) no outages forecast

Because of the extreme fire danger outdoor burning is not recommended

For fifty years we had an orchard and could only burn prunings on burn days.

If we had weather conditions of high winds and extremely low humidity in
Contra Costa it would have been a no burn day,

No wonder SoCal had wildfires.
I'll check to see if they sacrifice the weather reporter later in the day if a wildfire breaks out.
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