sonofabear51 said:

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And Bradley now has 4 fouls

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sonofabear51 said:

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Oh my, this is getting out of hand. Cal will be lucky if they score 60 tonight

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NathanAllen said:

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IssyBear said:

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To beat their zone, you need to pass to a player on the free throw line, who can pass or shoot from that spot. We repeatedly got good passes to that player, and they were all "good" shooters, yet no one could make the shot. That, added to the array of ticky-tack fouls being called, added to our lack of energy, resulted in the half time score.

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Or dribble penetration, which no one besides Bradley has shown consistent interest in doing so far this year.

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IssyBear said:

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Fun fact: Dimitrios Klonaras currently has a season field goal percentage of 62.5. He is 5 for 8 for the year and was 2 for 3 tonight.

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hoop97 said:

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I think Fox is a good coach and this year is a disappointment. It shows this team lacks leadership and how valuable Paris Austin was last year.

It's not reasonable to win a lot when 2 starters at beginning of the year are grad transfers and very average. No chemistry.

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Quote:

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What the heck happened to Celestine on that loose ball on the baseline?? It seemed like he just stopped and stared at the loose ball (and then was immediately pulled for nearly the entire rest of the game).

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stu said:

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Quote:

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What the heck happened to Celestine on that loose ball on the baseline?? It seemed like he just stopped and stared at the loose ball (and then was immediately pulled for nearly the entire rest of the game).

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I think he drove too far with defenders all around, picked up his dribble, left his feet, and had no shot or pass so he let go of the ball rather than travel.

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drizzlybear said:

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That was probably the game I was most looking forward to all season and it turned out to be the worst game of the season. Ugh.

Nathan, I have tried hard to have patience with Hyder, but ... Not only is it not getting better, it seems to get worse each game. The poor shots, missed shots, and turnovers are obvious enough, but his lack of awareness/positioning on "defending" that 2-on-2 transition basket (dunk) in H1 looked like someone who doesn't understand the game.

It's confusing to me why Brown was DNP-CD for H2, especially when it's hard to imagine worse play than Hyder's performance tonight.

Hyder certainly wasn't the only one who played poorly; almost everyone else did as well. GA was MIA and got called for multiple bad screens. I know the refs seemed tough for Cal tonight, but for a guy who gets a lot of credit (including from me) for being fundamentally sound, you can't be giving possessions away on bad screens 20+ feet from the basket.

What the heck happened to Celestine on that loose ball on the baseline?? It seemed like he just stopped and stared at the loose ball (and then was immediately pulled for nearly the entire rest of the game).

Certainly it's hard to judge from just one game, but I liked WSU's personnel better than ours (and they were missing their best player).

The only thing more annoying than annoying referees is when you're losing so badly anyway that it doesn't even matter if the officiating was any good. You can't use it as an excuse; it just adds to the misery.

Tonight was a stinker. It happens to every team. It can't happen repeatedly. Looking for the Bears to bounce back Saturday.

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calumnus said:

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drizzlybear said:

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That was probably the game I was most looking forward to all season and it turned out to be the worst game of the season. Ugh.

Nathan, I have tried hard to have patience with Hyder, but ... Not only is it not getting better, it seems to get worse each game. The poor shots, missed shots, and turnovers are obvious enough, but his lack of awareness/positioning on "defending" that 2-on-2 transition basket (dunk) in H1 looked like someone who doesn't understand the game.

It's confusing to me why Brown was DNP-CD for H2, especially when it's hard to imagine worse play than Hyder's performance tonight.

Hyder certainly wasn't the only one who played poorly; almost everyone else did as well. GA was MIA and got called for multiple bad screens. I know the refs seemed tough for Cal tonight, but for a guy who gets a lot of credit (including from me) for being fundamentally sound, you can't be giving possessions away on bad screens 20+ feet from the basket.

What the heck happened to Celestine on that loose ball on the baseline?? It seemed like he just stopped and stared at the loose ball (and then was immediately pulled for nearly the entire rest of the game).

Certainly it's hard to judge from just one game, but I liked WSU's personnel better than ours (and they were missing their best player).

The only thing more annoying than annoying referees is when you're losing so badly anyway that it doesn't even matter if the officiating was any good. You can't use it as an excuse; it just adds to the misery.

Tonight was a stinker. It happens to every team. It can't happen repeatedly. Looking for the Bears to bounce back Saturday.

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UW is the worst team in the conference, just what the doctor ordered.

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KoreAmBear said:

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calumnus said:

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drizzlybear said:

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That was probably the game I was most looking forward to all season and it turned out to be the worst game of the season. Ugh.

Nathan, I have tried hard to have patience with Hyder, but ... Not only is it not getting better, it seems to get worse each game. The poor shots, missed shots, and turnovers are obvious enough, but his lack of awareness/positioning on "defending" that 2-on-2 transition basket (dunk) in H1 looked like someone who doesn't understand the game.

It's confusing to me why Brown was DNP-CD for H2, especially when it's hard to imagine worse play than Hyder's performance tonight.

Hyder certainly wasn't the only one who played poorly; almost everyone else did as well. GA was MIA and got called for multiple bad screens. I know the refs seemed tough for Cal tonight, but for a guy who gets a lot of credit (including from me) for being fundamentally sound, you can't be giving possessions away on bad screens 20+ feet from the basket.

What the heck happened to Celestine on that loose ball on the baseline?? It seemed like he just stopped and stared at the loose ball (and then was immediately pulled for nearly the entire rest of the game).

Certainly it's hard to judge from just one game, but I liked WSU's personnel better than ours (and they were missing their best player).

The only thing more annoying than annoying referees is when you're losing so badly anyway that it doesn't even matter if the officiating was any good. You can't use it as an excuse; it just adds to the misery.

Tonight was a stinker. It happens to every team. It can't happen repeatedly. Looking for the Bears to bounce back Saturday.

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UW is the worst team in the conference, just what the doctor ordered.

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Speaking of doctor, it will help to have a healthy Matt on Saturday. But yes certainly a winnable game.

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calumnus said:

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KoreAmBear said:

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calumnus said:

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drizzlybear said:

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That was probably the game I was most looking forward to all season and it turned out to be the worst game of the season. Ugh.

Nathan, I have tried hard to have patience with Hyder, but ... Not only is it not getting better, it seems to get worse each game. The poor shots, missed shots, and turnovers are obvious enough, but his lack of awareness/positioning on "defending" that 2-on-2 transition basket (dunk) in H1 looked like someone who doesn't understand the game.

It's confusing to me why Brown was DNP-CD for H2, especially when it's hard to imagine worse play than Hyder's performance tonight.

Hyder certainly wasn't the only one who played poorly; almost everyone else did as well. GA was MIA and got called for multiple bad screens. I know the refs seemed tough for Cal tonight, but for a guy who gets a lot of credit (including from me) for being fundamentally sound, you can't be giving possessions away on bad screens 20+ feet from the basket.

What the heck happened to Celestine on that loose ball on the baseline?? It seemed like he just stopped and stared at the loose ball (and then was immediately pulled for nearly the entire rest of the game).

Certainly it's hard to judge from just one game, but I liked WSU's personnel better than ours (and they were missing their best player).

The only thing more annoying than annoying referees is when you're losing so badly anyway that it doesn't even matter if the officiating was any good. You can't use it as an excuse; it just adds to the misery.

Tonight was a stinker. It happens to every team. It can't happen repeatedly. Looking for the Bears to bounce back Saturday.

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UW is the worst team in the conference, just what the doctor ordered.

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Speaking of doctor, it will help to have a healthy Matt on Saturday. But yes certainly a winnable game.

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Matt played well (as always). I wonder why he didn't start? Just because he missed practice with illness?

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stu said:

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Bear8995 said:

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They have taken 3 more shots and 8 more free throws.

They have 20 rebounds. We have 8.

They are shooting 59%.We are shooting 42%.

We have 7 TOs and they have 5.

Every statistic is in their favor, and not by a little.

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Not exactly. Both teams have played 20 minutes.

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calumnus said:

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drizzlybear said:

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That was probably the game I was most looking forward to all season and it turned out to be the worst game of the season. Ugh.

Nathan, I have tried hard to have patience with Hyder, but ... Not only is it not getting better, it seems to get worse each game. The poor shots, missed shots, and turnovers are obvious enough, but his lack of awareness/positioning on "defending" that 2-on-2 transition basket (dunk) in H1 looked like someone who doesn't understand the game.

It's confusing to me why Brown was DNP-CD for H2, especially when it's hard to imagine worse play than Hyder's performance tonight.

Hyder certainly wasn't the only one who played poorly; almost everyone else did as well. GA was MIA and got called for multiple bad screens. I know the refs seemed tough for Cal tonight, but for a guy who gets a lot of credit (including from me) for being fundamentally sound, you can't be giving possessions away on bad screens 20+ feet from the basket.

What the heck happened to Celestine on that loose ball on the baseline?? It seemed like he just stopped and stared at the loose ball (and then was immediately pulled for nearly the entire rest of the game).

Certainly it's hard to judge from just one game, but I liked WSU's personnel better than ours (and they were missing their best player).

The only thing more annoying than annoying referees is when you're losing so badly anyway that it doesn't even matter if the officiating was any good. You can't use it as an excuse; it just adds to the misery.

Tonight was a stinker. It happens to every team. It can't happen repeatedly. Looking for the Bears to bounce back Saturday.

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UW is the worst team in the conference, just what the doctor ordered.

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Quote:

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As far as the comment about WSU's personnel versus Cal's, it's a very interesting point. Both teams are in a similar place with being pretty bad and then hiring a new coach two years ago. Wazzu has basically stacked the roster with younger pieces and a couple traditional transfers from other schools or JuCo while Cal has gone a bit more grad transfer-heavy ...

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NathanAllen said:

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stu said:

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From what I saw I's say WSU has filled their roster with better players. They looked longer, more athletic, and more skilled.

Reasons for that could include recruiting chops, scouting acumen, academic requirements, campus environment, more. I can't say since every player is different.

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I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you. But I do recommend making a judgment based on more than one game in which Cal lost by 31 points. (Maybe you have, just saying based on your statement, it doesn't seem like it.)

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Quote:

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Really, there is nothing special about Wazzu's classes, according to the rankings. Obviously, guys like Williams and Bonton have over-performed. And, of course, rankings aren't everything.

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NathanAllen said:

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stu said:

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Quote:

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As far as the comment about WSU's personnel versus Cal's, it's a very interesting point. Both teams are in a similar place with being pretty bad and then hiring a new coach two years ago. Wazzu has basically stacked the roster with younger pieces and a couple traditional transfers from other schools or JuCo while Cal has gone a bit more grad transfer-heavy ...

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From what I saw I's say WSU has filled their roster with better players. They looked longer, more athletic, and more skilled.

Reasons for that could include recruiting chops, scouting acumen, academic requirements, campus environment, more. I can't say since every player is different.

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I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you. But I do recommend making a judgment based on more than one game in which Cal lost by 31 points. (Maybe you have, just saying based on your statement, it doesn't seem like it.)

If you go off recruiting rankings, WSU's 2020 class was ranked fourth in the conference, but mainly because they had six commits (one four-star and five three-stars, according to 247Sports). Two players were ranked in the top-150, three in the 200 to 300 range, and one 400+. The 2019 class ranked 11th in the conference and had a whopping eight players from incoming freshmen to juco transfers to a traditional transfer. This class is really performing above its ranking as it includes Noah Williams, Isaac Bonton, and D.J. Rodman, among others. The 2018 class ranked last (12th) in the league, but the majority of WSU's rotation comes from the previous two classes.

Really, there is nothing special about Wazzu's classes, according to the rankings. Obviously, guys like Williams and Bonton have over-performed. And, of course, rankings aren't everything.

But I just want to reiterate my point that just because they looked longer, more athletic, and skilled in a lopsided win against Cal, doesn't mean they always are. Despite what we've seen them do to Cal this year, Wazzu isn't a good team. Outside of wins over Oregon and UCLA, they haven't beaten a KenPom top-100 team this season. Cal also has two wins over top-100 KenPom teams (Colorado and Utah). Keep in mind, Cal really depends on Bradley for a lot, and both times they've played Wazzu this year Bradley has been totally out with an injury or recovering from a sickness.

Now, I'm not defending Cal's performance last night. It was by far the worst of the season. With a sick Bradley or not, it was bad. They made a team with an adjusted offensive efficiency ranked in the 200s in KenPom look like the 2017 Warriors and Noah Williams look like Steph Curry. I just wouldn't come to too strong of a conclusion based on the sample size of one or two games.

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NathanAllen said:

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OdontoBear66 said:

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NathanAllen said:

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stu said:

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Quote:

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As far as the comment about WSU's personnel versus Cal's, it's a very interesting point. Both teams are in a similar place with being pretty bad and then hiring a new coach two years ago. Wazzu has basically stacked the roster with younger pieces and a couple traditional transfers from other schools or JuCo while Cal has gone a bit more grad transfer-heavy ...

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From what I saw I's say WSU has filled their roster with better players. They looked longer, more athletic, and more skilled.

Reasons for that could include recruiting chops, scouting acumen, academic requirements, campus environment, more. I can't say since every player is different.

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I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you. But I do recommend making a judgment based on more than one game in which Cal lost by 31 points. (Maybe you have, just saying based on your statement, it doesn't seem like it.)

If you go off recruiting rankings, WSU's 2020 class was ranked fourth in the conference, but mainly because they had six commits (one four-star and five three-stars, according to 247Sports). Two players were ranked in the top-150, three in the 200 to 300 range, and one 400+. The 2019 class ranked 11th in the conference and had a whopping eight players from incoming freshmen to juco transfers to a traditional transfer. This class is really performing above its ranking as it includes Noah Williams, Isaac Bonton, and D.J. Rodman, among others. The 2018 class ranked last (12th) in the league, but the majority of WSU's rotation comes from the previous two classes.

Really, there is nothing special about Wazzu's classes, according to the rankings. Obviously, guys like Williams and Bonton have over-performed. And, of course, rankings aren't everything.

But I just want to reiterate my point that just because they looked longer, more athletic, and skilled in a lopsided win against Cal, doesn't mean they always are. Despite what we've seen them do to Cal this year, Wazzu isn't a good team. Outside of wins over Oregon and UCLA, they haven't beaten a KenPom top-100 team this season. Cal also has two wins over top-100 KenPom teams (Colorado and Utah). Keep in mind, Cal really depends on Bradley for a lot, and both times they've played Wazzu this year Bradley has been totally out with an injury or recovering from a sickness.

Now, I'm not defending Cal's performance last night. It was by far the worst of the season. With a sick Bradley or not, it was bad. They made a team with an adjusted offensive efficiency ranked in the 200s in KenPom look like the 2017 Warriors and Noah Williams look like Steph Curry. I just wouldn't come to too strong of a conclusion based on the sample size of one or two games.

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Yes, I know on a website it is your role to maintain and generate interest, but for the day to day fan that game was one where you best just turned it off and did an occasional score check rather than get upset. I was really feeling good about what Fox was doing with the team, and yes to calm the crowd we can cite the difficulty of playing in the Palouse, but "making judgment based on more than one game"??? We have played some very exciting games getting the unexpected wins with Utah and Colorado, but then we have stunk up the joint like last night by a so-so team without its best player. This team is 3-14 in conference and slipping below UW. I have followed every game to the end for Cal in my roughly 70 years as a fan, but BB of late has just made me move to better use of my time. It is not good except in spurts.

And believe me I know most of the reasons starting with Cuonzo (what he didn't leave on the table as he exited for his $21M) until current. This is not good currently Nathan, by almost any measure. And as I say that I will not point the finger at Fox. He just does not have enough Pac 12 talent to play a season.

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I'm not sure what to tell you. It's going to take a while for Cal to get out of the hole it fell into. And Cal has some disadvantages when it comes to upgrading the roster (recent poor performance, no practice facility, admissions standards, etc.).

Again, I'm not defending Cal's performance last night. I'm just trying to offer some perspective. As you said, you were feeling good about what Fox was doing with the team. It's not going to be a linear path back to where many fans think this program should be.

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