monster ajay mitchell

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eastcoastcal
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In reply to ducky23 • 4:55p, 3/19/23
ducky23 said:
There also seems to be this certainty that JP is going to automatically start bringing in recruits. What actual evidence do we have for that? His classes at SB seemed pretty whatever. Yes, he recruited well at AZ, but Arizona recruits itself.

Yes I get that he has all of these "west coast ties" and "AAU" ties but when it comes down to it, I feel like recruiting is much more about if the coach can connect to the prospect.

And if chapman wants to call me racist, fine, but just from an outsiders perspective, it seems like having a young charismatic black man as a coach is more advantageous than having some white dude.

Maybe I'm just naive on how recruiting actually works.
Just my 2 cents but I think that his classes at UCSB have been solid- I mean realistically a team in the Big West is not going to be landing 4 and 5 star prospects. He also has shown a willingness to raid the transfer portal (important!) and clearly has the NIL thing down as per the reports of his rapport with our donors. People have reported that Andre Kelly has liked playing for him

I think he'd be a good hire
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BearGoggles
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In reply to stu • 4:56p, 3/19/23
stu said:
ducky23 said:
Methinks shocky cares more about next year than the next 10 years
What's best for next year could also be best for the next 10 years. Or almost the best for the next 10 years. I wouldn't hire a coach based only on a particular player coming along but I don't see a convincing argument that any other candidate has significantly better upside than JP.

This is a reasonable point. But I think its fair to say that any focus on next year is myopic. Maybe JP brings a player with him. Or maybe Cal gets an even better player in the portal.

Bottom line - this is a multiyear rebuild. I'm more interested in long term results/trajectory/ceiling than what happens next year. If JP is the best of both worlds, then I'm fine with that. But Cal should fully vet all leading candidates and in particular, hear what their plan is and how they will build their staff.
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Shocky1
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5:14p, 3/19/23
https://instagr.am/p/Bz8pEmuIcce
beargoggles, there is zero chance that there is an uncommitted point guard in the transfer portal that is even remotely half as effective as ajay mitchell & without a facilitator/distributor this team is gonna struggle to break 50 points in most games, another 3-29 season is a legit 2023/2024 outcome

glad to hear ur not myopic like the monster, if u change ur mind shocky gotta 15% off groupon for u at america's best

but if u believe in unicorns that's cool, the monster believes in curvy brunette yoga females that got decent gpas from academically mediocre schools like asu with flat stomachs & tight azzs n that luv them mutts like me & ajay



the university of california, berkeley=#1 ranked public university in the world (including belgium)
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Shocky1
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2:43a, 3/20/23


reigniting the magic of cal basketball & inclusively selling out haas like it wuz during cal's monster class is gonna require an assistant coaching staff that recruits like their hair is on fire & knows how to navigate berkeley admissions & sell the value of the cal degree to moms

joe's former players include teammates jerome randle https://www.basketballnews.com/stories/international-basketball-feature-jerome-randle-qa-retirement-basketball-africa-league-bal-us-monastir-unlmted-brand-california-cal-u-golden-bears-post-career-goals

and also former bears sharpshooter/modesto christian state championship game head coach richard midgley who has worked the last 4 years as a scout in the nba for the brooklyn nets...as more than half the team this season got uncorrected broken down crooked azz shooting mechanics, midgley would be invaluable as a likable & passionate player development coach

plus sir richard got a curvy brunette yoga female that is smarter than him (she's a haas biz ad grad)



the university of california, berkeley=#1 ranked public university in the world (including chicago & england)
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Shocky1
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9:18a, 3/20/23

wifey, appreciate the clarification re: your motives

as a point of clarification on my end i've been to 1 cal basketball game in the last 6 years but still stay in touch with the players & coaches that shared with me their dreams during cal's monster class...loyal bears like oskidunker who actually still got season tixs are way bigger fans than me these days

and now i gotta lotta interests that have replaced cal basketball fandom, this could be the last chapter in my love letter to cal basketball...with my ocd tendencies (attending 150+ home/road games in a row, playing the last 17 top 100 world golf course lists) ima either all in or all out

so my motives are simply whatever is best for the program

all of the criteria you cited are 100% important for the next leader, the only additional criteria that i would add to this list is an energy level unknown to planet earth & an ability to move forward despite looming adversity/obstacles

joe pasternack meets & exceeds all the stated criteria, he is right choice for both the short run (if any of the other coaches are hired the bears got a 95% probability of losing 20+ games next season without a facilitator/distributor at point guard like ajay mitchell) & the long run (he got the major donor connections/relationships to get the practice facility built)...he is the much needed player's coach kinda like coach martin

it is the skittish psyche that causes the mostly uninformed fanbase to think there is some unnamed mysterious coach that can lead the program to becoming nationally ranked again with mcdonald all americans on the floor & that sorry azz thinking is a contributing factor why dennis gates got passed over

wifey, when i say joe & lindsay want the cal job, this is not speculation on my end
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Cal8285
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In reply to Shocky1 • 2:43p, 3/20/23
Shocky1 said:

eric musselman would be a terrible fit in berkeley & he knows it

yanni hufnagel tole me that after a close nevada loss due to missed fts he assembled the assistant coaches in the postgame locker room & wuz screaming at them that they better get those piece of **** players to the practice facility the next morning at 7:00 am for a couple of hours of free throw shooting, if a player didn't show up he would be cut or benched

yanni said he politely pointed out that multiple guys had mandatory classes & musselman said "i don't give a **** what they got going on, they'd better be there in the morning" before stormin' out

yeah the muscleman would be one of the worst coaches possible at the #1 ranked public university in the world
IMO, it doesn't really matter whether he is at the #1 ranked public university in the world, Arkansas, an NBA team, or anywhere else, Musselman is one of the worst coaches possible. Sure, maybe a worse fit at Cal, but still bad anywhere he goes.

Maybe at some places you can get some winning in the short term out of him, but winning isn't everything. The Yanni story rings true only because it is consistent with the personality reported by people with the Warriors, the Kings, and others with the Nevada Wolfpack.

The best thing about Musselman is that his personality doesn't fit with anybody, and since in 2019, JK cared so much about how much the coach's personality fit with JK, JK was able to properly reject Musselman, even if for the wrong reason -- because Musselman would have been a terrible fit for JK. I'm sure JK was clueless that Musselman would have been terrible for the Cal basketball program. People like to refer to the DUI as having been a problem for Cal, but the DUI was at best 1%, the personality was at least 99% of the problem.

The only thing upsetting to me about Musselman to Arkansas is that he didn't go to Arkansas right away after the season ended, because if he had, Mark Fox probably would have taken the Nevada job before the Cal job came open.

The biggest problem for Cal is that it has an AD who doesn't have the slightest clue about what makes for a good basketball coach, much less a good basketball coach for Cal. I just cross my fingers that this time around, he is listening to people who do have a clue. Otherwise, we're screwed.
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BearGoggles
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In reply to Shocky1 • 3:02p, 3/20/23
Shocky1 said:
https://instagr.am/p/Bz8pEmuIcce
beargoggles, there is zero chance that there is an uncommitted point guard in the transfer portal that is even remotely half as effective as ajay mitchell & without a facilitator/distributor this team is gonna struggle to break 50 points in most games, another 3-29 season is a legit 2023/2024 outcome

glad to hear ur not myopic like the monster, if u change ur mind shocky gotta 15% off groupon for u at america's best

but if u believe in unicorns that's cool, the monster believes in curvy brunette yoga females that got decent gpas from academically mediocre schools like asu with flat stomachs & tight azzs n that luv them mutts like me & ajay



the university of california, berkeley=#1 ranked public university in the world (including belgium)

You choose not to understand my point. Whether there's as good an uncommitted player as Mitchell in the portal is a secondary consideration to me (as is next year's record). If JP is the right guy, then Cal should hire him regardless of whether Mitchell is coming with him. If someone else is the best guy, then hire that person even if it means not getting Mitchell (or whoever). With the best/right coach, Cal will attract better players because an essential part of being the best choice is recruiting ability (which Fox lacked).



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calumnus
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In reply to Cal8285 • 3:29p, 3/20/23
Cal8285 said:
Shocky1 said:

eric musselman would be a terrible fit in berkeley & he knows it

yanni hufnagel tole me that after a close nevada loss due to missed fts he assembled the assistant coaches in the postgame locker room & wuz screaming at them that they better get those piece of **** players to the practice facility the next morning at 7:00 am for a couple of hours of free throw shooting, if a player didn't show up he would be cut or benched

yanni said he politely pointed out that multiple guys had mandatory classes & musselman said "i don't give a **** what they got going on, they'd better be there in the morning" before stormin' out

yeah the muscleman would be one of the worst coaches possible at the #1 ranked public university in the world
IMO, it doesn't really matter whether he is at the #1 ranked public university in the world, Arkansas, an NBA team, or anywhere else, Musselman is one of the worst coaches possible. Sure, maybe a worse fit at Cal, but still bad anywhere he goes.

Maybe at some places you can get some winning in the short term out of him, but winning isn't everything. The Yanni story rings true only because it is consistent with the personality reported by people with the Warriors, the Kings, and others with the Nevada Wolfpack.

The best thing about Musselman is that his personality doesn't fit with anybody, and since in 2019, JK cared so much about how much the coach's personality fit with JK, JK was able to properly reject Musselman, even if for the wrong reason -- because Musselman would have been a terrible fit for JK. I'm sure JK was clueless that Musselman would have been terrible for the Cal basketball program. People like to refer to the DUI as having been a problem for Cal, but the DUI was at best 1%, the personality was at least 99% of the problem.

The only thing upsetting to me about Musselman to Arkansas is that he didn't go to Arkansas right away after the season ended, because if he had, Mark Fox probably would have taken the Nevada job before the Cal job came open.

The biggest problem for Cal is that it has an AD who doesn't have the slightest clue about what makes for a good basketball coach, much less a good basketball coach for Cal. I just cross my fingers that this time around, he is listening to people who do have a clue. Otherwise, we're screwed.


Good post. I retract any irrelevant retroactive support for Musselman.
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Shocky1
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3:42p, 3/20/23
bear goggles, if ur ok with potentially another 3-29 record next season without a point guard & a decommitted 2023 class and no tangible fundraising for a practice facility because there's a mysterious "better" choice than joe pasternack not sure what to even say to u...he is the clearcut best coach both in the short run & the long run

to be honest with u i've kinda tuned out all the uniformed cal fans who didn't understand how coach martin wuz a perfect fit for cal with his relentless recruiting of mcdonald all americans, his undeniable appeal to single family moms of recruits, how he met with students in sproul plaza with a basket for open shooting & visited dorms/greek system to sell out haas, the ability to use social media such as cal's monster class to engage/energize the fan base particularly those without an affiliation to berkeley & the 100% loaded pipeline of elite talent including silent & public commits that all backed out when wyking wuz hired...we had a nationally ranked program that wuz on an upward trajectory towards a final four with continued growth by coach martin who needed cal as much as cal needed him

ima arguably the most outspoken & foremost golf course architecture ranker in the world whose input affects the final usa & world top 100 rankings for multiple publications...so i get dozens of unsolicited emails a week from various sources touting courses they feel deserve to be ranked but when someone tells me that name of an unwalkable (in my mind, poorly routed) golf course is "great" their email gets instantly deleted...that's kinda how i feel about the uninformed dumb azzs who don't understand how coach martin (who wuz not perfect) wuz the greatest recruiter in the history of cal basketball

but that's all water under the bridge just like the fact that the con artist could've made the decision to not extend fox another $1,900,000+ season & instead hired joe pasternack after last season

today's modern college basketball game is with some fun exceptions like princeton dominated by head coaches than can recruit & point guards that got the balls in their hands to facilitate/distribute to teammates to score 75+ ppg

good luck in ur quest with knowlton to find "the best/right coach", hope it's not a castle in the air (again)



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Shocky1
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In reply to calumnus • 3:54p, 3/20/23
calumnus said:

Good post. I retract any irrelevant retroactive support for Musselman.
calalumnus, the muscleman is a fun character & one of the top coaches in all of basketball, he's a brilliant motivator & gameday strategist in both the nba & skools that got a roster of 2.5 gpa dumb azzs that just wanna hoop 24/7/365...that approach would never work in berkeley

fun fact: eric's recruiting pitch includes his very attractive black wife telling prospects & their moms that she will be their "2nd mother away from home" and keep them grounded, this is 100% a successful selling strategy...there is not a single family moms in the country that wuz not interested in cuonzo's surrogate father/mentor promise to them & their son...that wuz the difference maker for jaylen brown, ivan rabb, marcus lee, jemarl baker, olivier sarr, etc. & that's why the bears were absolutely feared on the summertime aau recruiting trails

https://instagr.am/p/CiGGpE_ukx7
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Big C
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4:20p, 3/20/23

I don't feel like I can count on Ajay following Pasternack, if he gets hired at Cal (at least not with any certainty). I would like the hire just because JP seems like a good all-around candidate. If he brings a good player with him, I'm looking at that as an added bonus. If not, he will know what the roster needs and use NIL and the portal to get somebody else.
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socaltownie
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4:32p, 3/20/23
Shockster - You and I see eye to eye about Martin _EXCEPT_ when it comes to you arguing for Cal to institute a legacy admit program for his son with decidedly LESS than stellar academic credientials.

It is especially important to note that since yesterday admission decisions flowed and NUMEROUS kids at my kids HS with 4.5s and 10+ APs were denied admission or wait listed.

Love Martin. Love his love of Cal. Thought he was a GREAT fit for UCB. But his son - a non athlete - should not have been given special admissions since NO ONE other than scholarship athletes and a few very special circumstance admits get preferential treatment in the ultra competitive world of UC admission (that same HS saw numerous kids with 4.2+ and 6+ APs get waitlisted or denied at UCI. UCI for **** sake.
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Pittstop
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4:55p, 3/20/23
To be completely honest about Cuonzo, his teams were headed towards mediocrity once Jaylen, Rabb and Tyrone [and Bird] were all leaving. And his offenses were almost unwatchable, with no defined plan or cohesion. This played out at Mizzou, where he reverted to being a .500 coach despite having a reputation as a great recruiter. And no discernable admissions standards at Mizzou.
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Shocky1
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5:02p, 3/20/23
socal, joshua martin is black & got a 3.67 gpa and wuz not cleared off the wait list by berkeley admissions

quinn tedford is white & got a significantly lower gpa & got accepted by berkeley admissions (to his credit quinn earned his degree)

if you gotta head coach that can successfully recruit the best athletes on planet earth (i.e. mcdonalds all americans) & potentially compete for a final four during march madness than you make an exception for his son, the incremental value of the tens of millions of dollars in additional donations to the university is for the greater good in the trade off for one admission spot

you disagree & that's fine, life is not linear
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89Bear
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In reply to BearGoggles • 5:06p, 3/20/23
BearGoggles said:
stu said:
ducky23 said:
Methinks shocky cares more about next year than the next 10 years
What's best for next year could also be best for the next 10 years. Or almost the best for the next 10 years. I wouldn't hire a coach based only on a particular player coming along but I don't see a convincing argument that any other candidate has significantly better upside than JP.

This is a reasonable point. But I think its fair to say that any focus on next year is myopic. Maybe JP brings a player with him. Or maybe Cal gets an even better player in the portal.

Bottom line - this is a multiyear rebuild. I'm more interested in long term results/trajectory/ceiling than what happens next year. If JP is the best of both worlds, then I'm fine with that. But Cal should fully vet all leading candidates and in particular, hear what their plan is and how they will build their staff.


For some of us older people, I want to win NEXT year!!!
Who knows who will be around for a long rebuild…
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Shocky1
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In reply to Pittstop • 5:13p, 3/20/23
Pittstop said:
To be completely honest about Cuonzo, his teams were headed towards mediocrity once Jaylen, Rabb and Tyrone [and Bird] were all leaving. And his offenses were almost unwatchable, with no defined plan or cohesion. This played out at Mizzou, where he reverted to being a .500 coach despite having a reputation as a great recruiter. And no discernable admissions standards at Mizzou.
pitts, to be completely honest that's just the uniformed fan false narrative repeated by dumb azzs like slugo, ursine, civil bear, bobo the clown, etc.

coach martin tole me that wuz the recruiting pitch to mcdonalds all americans, if you will play physical man on man intense as **** nba level d then i will let you improvise on offense like they do in the nba...the fact that a bunch of old white guys on this board don't understand the mindset of talented young blacks that got legit nba aspirations is no longer of interest to me, it is wut it is

we had public commits from mcdonalds all american marcus lee as a transfer from kentucky & elite sharpshooter jemarl baker who didn't wanna play for wyking & flipped to kentucky and a silent commit from frenchman olivier sarr who also didn't wanna play for wyking & flipped to wake forest & later transferred to kentucky plus we were the leader for mcodnalds all american jordan brown who signed with arizona...plus the #1 player in the nation would've signed with cal as part of the porter dad assistant coach deal

that's a potential final four team, got it?

but dumb azzs like to see coach martin left the "cupboard bare" when that the facts do not support that assertion

cuonzo sold academics & cal's ranking as the #1 public university in the world, branding urself as an intellectual would pay millions with future nba endorsement deals, he could not do that in missouri because it's an academically mediocre school & he failed...in retrospect he needed cal as much as cal needed him

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Cabin14
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In reply to 89Bear • 5:22p, 3/20/23
89Bear said:
BearGoggles said:
stu said:
ducky23 said:
Methinks shocky cares more about next year than the next 10 years
What's best for next year could also be best for the next 10 years. Or almost the best for the next 10 years. I wouldn't hire a coach based only on a particular player coming along but I don't see a convincing argument that any other candidate has significantly better upside than JP.

This is a reasonable point. But I think its fair to say that any focus on next year is myopic. Maybe JP brings a player with him. Or maybe Cal gets an even better player in the portal.

Bottom line - this is a multiyear rebuild. I'm more interested in long term results/trajectory/ceiling than what happens next year. If JP is the best of both worlds, then I'm fine with that. But Cal should fully vet all leading candidates and in particular, hear what their plan is and how they will build their staff.


For some of us older people, I want to win NEXT year!!!
Who knows who will be around for a long rebuild… T
This team is far from the disaster that most 3-29 teams are...even with Clayton graduating and Joel B/Kuany Kuany in the portal, the cupboard is hardly void of ballplayers with varying skillsets. Askew is not going anywhere, and though he is probably not on par with other CG's with the McDonald's AA pedigree, he's not exactly a stiff. If the new HC can hold onto some combination of Grant, Celestine, Okafor, Alajiki and the BOD kids, the cupboard is hardly empty...literally one legitimate scorer from the portal could work wonders, especially if Newell and Celestine return. Not a Tournament team, but could easily see them winning 12-15 games with just better leadership.

Granted, I am of the mind that a competent head coach could have won 10+ games this past year with this roster and the multitude of injuries just by switching up the style to take better advantage of the roster, something Mark Fox was unwilling/unable to do.
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Shocky1
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5:28p, 3/20/23
cabin, agree with many of your points & that the cupboard is not bare in berkeley...there are several very nice young players with upside & 3 years of eligibility to build around

but this team wuz not one scorer away from being good, it wuz an elite point guard that can facilitate/distribute like ajay mitchell from being a team with tournament consideration
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Cabin14
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In reply to Shocky1 • 5:37p, 3/20/23
Would love Ajay Mitchell...would be a fantastic add.

And to clarify, I'm definitely not saying 8-10 wins would have made them good...but it at least would not have been all-time bad. That said, it probably took the 3-29 to finally be rid of Fox....so there's that!
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BearGoggles
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In reply to Shocky1 • 6:33p, 3/20/23
Shocky1 said:
bear goggles, if ur ok with potentially another 3-29 record next season without a point guard & a decommitted 2023 class and no tangible fundraising for a practice facility because there's a mysterious "better" choice than joe pasternack not sure what to even say to u...he is the clearcut best coach both in the short run & the long run

to be honest with u i've kinda tuned out all the uniformed cal fans who didn't understand how coach martin wuz a perfect fit for cal with his relentless recruiting of mcdonald all americans, his undeniable appeal to single family moms of recruits, how he met with students in sproul plaza with a basket for open shooting & visited dorms/greek system to sell out haas, the ability to use social media such as cal's monster class to engage/energize the fan base particularly those without an affiliation to berkeley & the 100% loaded pipeline of elite talent including silent & public commits that all backed out when wyking wuz hired...we had a nationally ranked program that wuz on an upward trajectory towards a final four with continued growth by coach martin who needed cal as much as cal needed him

ima arguably the most outspoken & foremost golf course architecture ranker in the world whose input affects the final usa & world top 100 rankings for multiple publications...so i get dozens of unsolicited emails a week from various sources touting courses they feel deserve to be ranked but when someone tells me that name of an unwalkable (in my mind, poorly routed) golf course is "great" their email gets instantly deleted...that's kinda how i feel about the uninformed dumb azzs who don't understand how coach martin (who wuz not perfect) wuz the greatest recruiter in the history of cal basketball

but that's all water under the bridge just like the fact that the con artist could've made the decision to not extend fox another $1,900,000+ season & instead hired joe pasternack after last season

today's modern college basketball game is with some fun exceptions like princeton dominated by head coaches than can recruit & point guards that got the balls in their hands to facilitate/distribute to teammates to score 75+ ppg

good luck in ur quest with knowlton to find "the best/right coach", hope it's not a castle in the air (again)




What does this have to do with Cuonzo? Didn't like the way he left, but I thought he had plenty of reasons to leave given his treatment at Cal. And he was for sure a great recruiter - the type of recruiter Cal needs to hire this time around. Personally, I prioritize recruiting skills over technical coaching because you can always hire a staff to assist with x's and o's (provided the coach realizes he needs some help).

And for the record, I never said I had confidence in Knowlton picking the coach. I am pinning my hopes on the donors and other Cal advisors to make sure he doesn't have too much input on the pick.

Between JP and AAR, who do you think has a higher chance of recruiting to Cal like Cuonzo did - reeling in 4 and 5 star types? That is really the long term question if Cal wants to win championships.
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BearGoggles
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In reply to 89Bear • 6:37p, 3/20/23
89Bear said:
BearGoggles said:
stu said:
ducky23 said:
Methinks shocky cares more about next year than the next 10 years
What's best for next year could also be best for the next 10 years. Or almost the best for the next 10 years. I wouldn't hire a coach based only on a particular player coming along but I don't see a convincing argument that any other candidate has significantly better upside than JP.

This is a reasonable point. But I think its fair to say that any focus on next year is myopic. Maybe JP brings a player with him. Or maybe Cal gets an even better player in the portal.

Bottom line - this is a multiyear rebuild. I'm more interested in long term results/trajectory/ceiling than what happens next year. If JP is the best of both worlds, then I'm fine with that. But Cal should fully vet all leading candidates and in particular, hear what their plan is and how they will build their staff.


For some of us older people, I want to win NEXT year!!!
Who knows who will be around for a long rebuild…
I'm certainly not young. But I'm young enough to take a long view. I'll wait a year (i.e., tolerate another subpar season) for a higher ceiling coach if need be. And I don't care who Cal hires, we'll be hard pressed to see post season play next year.

And FWIW, if you hire a dynamic coach, with the promised NIL support, players will come. Much easier to turn over a hoops program if you get the right guy. Is JP that guy? A guy like Cuonzo who can pull 4 and 5 stars? Maybe. But I'm open to the possibility AAR is actually a better hire for attracting elite players over the long run.
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socaltownie
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In reply to Shocky1 • 6:39p, 3/20/23
Quinn was a scholarship athlete. Now we can quibble that ted
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bluesaxe
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In reply to Shocky1 • 6:49p, 3/20/23
Shocky1 said:
Pittstop said:
To be completely honest about Cuonzo, his teams were headed towards mediocrity once Jaylen, Rabb and Tyrone [and Bird] were all leaving. And his offenses were almost unwatchable, with no defined plan or cohesion. This played out at Mizzou, where he reverted to being a .500 coach despite having a reputation as a great recruiter. And no discernable admissions standards at Mizzou.
pitts, to be completely honest that's just the uniformed fan false narrative repeated by dumb azzs like slugo, ursine, civil bear, bobo the clown, etc.

coach martin tole me that wuz the recruiting pitch to mcdonalds all americans, if you will play physical man on man intense as **** nba level d then i will let you improvise on offense like they do in the nba...the fact that a bunch of old white guys on this board don't understand the mindset of talented young blacks that got legit nba aspirations is no longer of interest to me, it is wut it is

we had public commits from mcdonalds all american marcus lee as a transfer from kentucky & elite sharpshooter jemarl baker who didn't wanna play for wyking & flipped to kentucky and a silent commit from frenchman olivier sarr who also didn't wanna play for wyking & flipped to wake forest & later transferred to kentucky plus we were the leader for mcodnalds all american jordan brown who signed with arizona...plus the #1 player in the nation would've signed with cal as part of the porter dad assistant coach deal

that's a potential final four team, got it?

but dumb azzs like to see coach martin left the "cupboard bare" when that the facts do not support that assertion

cuonzo sold academics & cal's ranking as the #1 public university in the world, branding urself as an intellectual would pay millions with future nba endorsement deals, he could not do that in missouri because it's an academically mediocre school & he failed...in retrospect he needed cal as much as cal needed him

I am a long-time NBA fan and I saw Cal's offense under Martin. That was not NBA style offense and your description of NBA offense is just wrong. Some of them are read and react, but it isn't just player improv and Cal was not running whatever they were doing very well. The numbers bear out what the eyes saw. He only had one team that was better than 160th in adjusted offensive efficiency, and with 4 NBA draftees on his team the best he managed was 53rd. The defense was tough and rugged and I have no quarrel regarding the good things he did that you described, but c'mon.

Also, none of the guys you mentioned as hot stuff recruits ended up doing all that well. Baker turned out to be mediocre at best, averaging 7.5 ppg in his career on bad shooting numbers. Sarr was serviceable, but no star. Same with Brown, who ended up in the Sun Belt Conference and never sniffed the NBA. We saw Marcus Lee - good guy, not close to a star. As much as I loved Charlie Moore, calling that group a Final Four team is a real reach. Yes, it would have been better than what we ended up with and yes Martin had the potential to recruit better, but again, c'mon. I was happy we hired Martin, not happy he left, but there's no reason to overstate your case here.
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bluesaxe
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In reply to Cabin14 • 6:55p, 3/20/23
Cabin14 said:
89Bear said:
BearGoggles said:
stu said:
ducky23 said:
Methinks shocky cares more about next year than the next 10 years
What's best for next year could also be best for the next 10 years. Or almost the best for the next 10 years. I wouldn't hire a coach based only on a particular player coming along but I don't see a convincing argument that any other candidate has significantly better upside than JP.

This is a reasonable point. But I think its fair to say that any focus on next year is myopic. Maybe JP brings a player with him. Or maybe Cal gets an even better player in the portal.

Bottom line - this is a multiyear rebuild. I'm more interested in long term results/trajectory/ceiling than what happens next year. If JP is the best of both worlds, then I'm fine with that. But Cal should fully vet all leading candidates and in particular, hear what their plan is and how they will build their staff.


For some of us older people, I want to win NEXT year!!!
Who knows who will be around for a long rebuild… T
This team is far from the disaster that most 3-29 teams are...even with Clayton graduating and Joel B/Kuany Kuany in the portal, the cupboard is hardly void of ballplayers with varying skillsets. Askew is not going anywhere, and though he is probably not on par with other CG's with the McDonald's AA pedigree, he's not exactly a stiff. If the new HC can hold onto some combination of Grant, Celestine, Okafor, Alajiki and the BOD kids, the cupboard is hardly empty...literally one legitimate scorer from the portal could work wonders, especially if Newell and Celestine return. Not a Tournament team, but could easily see them winning 12-15 games with just better leadership.

Granted, I am of the mind that a competent head coach could have won 10+ games this past year with this roster and the multitude of injuries just by switching up the style to take better advantage of the roster, something Mark Fox was unwilling/unable to do.
How many 3-29 teams even exist? There might be one guy on that list who is an average or better shooter. This is going to take more than one addition to get anywhere near competent.
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stu
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In reply to bluesaxe • 7:08p, 3/20/23
bluesaxe said:
How many 3-29 teams even exist? There might be one guy on that list who is an average or better shooter. This is going to take more than one addition to get anywhere near competent.
With all the variability in basketball it's almost impossible to finish 3-29. I think the same players with the same schedule, fewer injuries, less bad luck, and an average coach would be more likely to finish with 8 or 10 wins. With a good coach and a few key additions the record could be respectable.
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Shocky1
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7:09p, 3/20/23


bluesaxe, ur funny as **** criticisms of all the mcdonalds all americans made me smile since ur team wuz 3-29 this season...kentucky is the gold standard in recruiting, if you beat them multiple times for guys ur gonna have a pretty special program, got it?

ur commentary kinda reminds me of the dumb azz guy in this video criticizing his perfectly fabulous (ok maybe a little bit flawed) curvy brunette yoga female girlfriend, she's a mcdonalds all american in my book

we were a program during coach martin's (and coach montgomery) cal's monster class era of a 18-0 home record in front of almost 11,000 fans per game with a loud & hostile homecourt advantage that often stormed the floor after epic victories while celebrating with mcdonalds all americans the magic of cal basketball

but u saw it differently, it wuz all just a ****show to u, **** coach martin

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Shocky1
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In reply to socaltownie • 7:13p, 3/20/23
socaltownie said:
Quinn was a scholarship athlete. Now we can quibble that ted
quinn wuz a walk on & received preferential admissions which ensured donna wuz not gonna let her husband take another job for 4-5 years unless he wanted to live all by himself at the office at some truck stop town
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Cabin14
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In reply to bluesaxe • 7:24p, 3/20/23
bluesaxe said:
Cabin14 said:
89Bear said:
BearGoggles said:
stu said:
ducky23 said:
Methinks shocky cares more about next year than the next 10 years
What's best for next year could also be best for the next 10 years. Or almost the best for the next 10 years. I wouldn't hire a coach based only on a particular player coming along but I don't see a convincing argument that any other candidate has significantly better upside than JP.

This is a reasonable point. But I think its fair to say that any focus on next year is myopic. Maybe JP brings a player with him. Or maybe Cal gets an even better player in the portal.

Bottom line - this is a multiyear rebuild. I'm more interested in long term results/trajectory/ceiling than what happens next year. If JP is the best of both worlds, then I'm fine with that. But Cal should fully vet all leading candidates and in particular, hear what their plan is and how they will build their staff.


For some of us older people, I want to win NEXT year!!!
Who knows who will be around for a long rebuild… T
This team is far from the disaster that most 3-29 teams are...even with Clayton graduating and Joel B/Kuany Kuany in the portal, the cupboard is hardly void of ballplayers with varying skillsets. Askew is not going anywhere, and though he is probably not on par with other CG's with the McDonald's AA pedigree, he's not exactly a stiff. If the new HC can hold onto some combination of Grant, Celestine, Okafor, Alajiki and the BOD kids, the cupboard is hardly empty...literally one legitimate scorer from the portal could work wonders, especially if Newell and Celestine return. Not a Tournament team, but could easily see them winning 12-15 games with just better leadership.

Granted, I am of the mind that a competent head coach could have won 10+ games this past year with this roster and the multitude of injuries just by switching up the style to take better advantage of the roster, something Mark Fox was unwilling/unable to do.
How many 3-29 teams even exist? There might be one guy on that list who is an average or better shooter. This is going to take more than one addition to get anywhere near competent.
Well, that's definitely a fair point on the 3-29, but I do disagree with you.

Again, I am not saying this team was ever going to be anything close to a .500 team, and though the injury excuse was pretty weak and grew tiresome, missing Jalen Celestine did really hurt…he is an above average shooter, and that absence was felt. Askew, Grant Newell and Alajiki are all average shooters that really suffered from Mark Fox's putrid offense that failed to create open looks consistently.

Say whomever is the HC next year actually knows something about coaching an efficient offense (which Fox did not) and adds a scoring PG that can shoot and facilitate (which Joel was not) to a rotation that includes a nucleus of Celestine, Askew, Newell, Alajiki, along with incoming recruit Rodney Brown, who can shoot? 12-19 next year is very doable.

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Pittstop
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In reply to Shocky1 • 7:26p, 3/20/23
Hey Shockster, I actually liked the way Cuonzo presented, and represented to the media and the public. And I noticed how his players coalesced around him as a leader of men. But I offered my opinion strictly based on what I WATCHED for every game Cal played while he was the HC. The offense was unwatchable (except sometimes when Bird would catch fire - he was fun to watch). And Marcus Lee truly sucked during his time at Cal, and Jemarl Baker MIGHT have been good if he'd come to Cal, but his eventual college career didn't provide any great confirmation of that. Nor did Olivier Sarr's. Nor did Cuonzo's results at Mizzou, where there are no admissions hoops to jump through. I don't know what to tell you, Shockster. I LIKE the MAN. I LIKE him as a leader of men. But I just didn't see what you seem to have seen in Cuonzo as a "coach". Yes, he took Cal to the Tournament as the highest seed Cal had earned in YEARS. But with the massive amount of talent that was on that team, I still felt like they played below their actual potential. They were (or should have been) much better than they showed. But that was just my feeling.
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eastcoastcal
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7:44p, 3/20/23
All of this is neither here nor there-- the point is Cuonzo showed quite recently that you can get top recruits to Cal, but you have to be a relentless worker and someone who understands how to sell Cal. Fox did not understand this at all obviously, but Pasternack very well might, especially if he surrounds himself with guys that have been mentioned here:
Lou richie, jerome, theo, richard midgley, lamond, etc. Pasternack has the connections with the programs, a track record of winning as a HC, and with the right staff full of Cal guys who can a) coach shooting b) be life mentors to these kids and c) sell cal to recruits and their families, we will be golden

The other thing I hope to see is a willingness to promote the program and be "the face" of Cal hoops- invite students to come to games, go to the dorms and frats, encourage bay area basketball fans who have been priced out of Warriors games to attend; make Haas ENEMY TERRITORY for opposing teams- they should feel 40 minutes of hell from playing in our arena

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Shocky1
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7:54p, 3/20/23
https://instagr.am/p/BNSb5TFBc3c
bluesaxe, ok my fun is over (and this thread is probably getting closer to the end) so here's a more nuanced real world insider view of mcdonalds all americans, let's take jemarl baker, ok?

u wrote "Baker turned out to be mediocre at best"

coach martin hired the best s&c coach i've ever met (my clients include a nba organization which allows me access to other nba teams's personnel) i've ever met, he got guys ready for the league with nba bodies with toned muscle that incorporated yoga (at my urging) as part of the developmental process...and the fact that shocky thought his wife wuz pretty amazing wuz not a surprise to nobody (fallon would coach taylor on how to put together outfits without going designer label crazy)

nicodemus tole me that getting jermarl baker's very skinny frame (kinda like current commit sharpshooter rodney brown who will likely decommit if joe pasternack don't end up in berkeley) nba ready wuz gonna be a major priority...jemarl wuz arguably the top perimeter shooter in high school in his class & never got his body right at kentucky which resulted in debilitating injuries & ur right his career flamed out but that don't mean he couldn't have been an all american for the bears with coach martin & nicodemus christopher shaping his body, got it?

so if coach martin stays in berkeley, then coach nico (who is now running a very successful training program with multiple nuggets in denver as clients) stays too & then 1st round nba draft pick joshua christopher would've been a bear at both nico & patrick's encouragement...plz spare me ur expertise in breaking down all of the flaws in joshua christopher's game who plays for the houston rockets, ok?

but of course the dumb azzs who believe "cuonzo left the cupboard" bare don't consider that jemarl baker could've reached his true upside in berkeley or that joshua christopher would've been a california golden bear before being the #24th pick in the 2021 nba draft

there's been a lot of misinformation on this board during my 6 year censorship termination, the monster has always strived to tell the truth
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Shocky1
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8:05p, 3/20/23
https://instagr.am/p/Cl2R1F6jvaG
pitts, shocky has played 15+ rounds at augusta national & can tell you a dozen plus legit architectural flaws in its design & why it's not in my current world top 10 golf course rankings but that don't mean it's still not a pretty magical golfing experience

a lot of what you say is true & also frustrated me too at times...but I trusted that over time coach martin would've made adjustments to his offensive philosophy approach, he wuz not a static stuck in the mud individual

recruits & their moms met coach martin and 100% felt his commanding presence & sincere promise for academic success & nba aspirations/development

we could've competed for a national championship in berkeley

shut up, shocky#
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calumnus
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In reply to Pittstop • 8:16p, 3/20/23
Pittstop said:
Hey Shockster, I actually liked the way Cuonzo presented, and represented to the media and the public. And I noticed how his players coalesced around him as a leader of men. But I offered my opinion strictly based on what I WATCHED for every game Cal played while he was the HC. The offense was unwatchable (except sometimes when Bird would catch fire - he was fun to watch). And Marcus Lee truly sucked during his time at Cal, and Jemarl Baker MIGHT have been good if he'd come to Cal, but his eventual college career didn't provide any great confirmation of that. Nor did Olivier Sarr's. Nor did Cuonzo's results at Mizzou, where there are no admissions hoops to jump through. I don't know what to tell you, Shockster. I LIKE the MAN. I LIKE him as a leader of men. But I just didn't see what you seem to have seen in Cuonzo as a "coach". Yes, he took Cal to the Tournament as the highest seed Cal had earned in YEARS. But with the massive amount of talent that was on that team, I still felt like they played below their actual potential. They were (or should have been) much better than they showed. But that was just my feeling.


The formula is something like:

Winning = recruiting x player development x strategy x motivation

The object is winning. I prefer winning to losing. How you get it done is mostly style points.

Schools like Kentucky lean heavily on the first factor and tend to "underperform" the talent level. Most on this board, especially of a certain age, love Hoosiers, a scrappy bunch of kids that overperform their talent level. For me, both are fun. Winning is fun.

However, if you look at Cal, we are a school where the players need to spend a lot of time studying. Yes, we also don't have a dedicated practice facility. A coach that relies primarily on player development and/or a highly drilled offense is not a good fit. If you want tgat, you should root for small schools in the snowy Midwest. Cal needs to rely on recruiting, bring in great players who can thrive in an unstructured offense, and fortunately Cal is in a top recruiting area, has international acclaim and Cal can be an incredibly attractive place for socially conscious elite athletes, especially African Americans, from across the country, it is really our comparative advantage. it just has to be sold by someone who appreciates Cal for that and can sell that. Who welcomes young men with opinions.

Cuonzo was a great fit for the above. Yes, the team underperformed, but we went undefeated at Haas and earned our highest seed in school history. We finished ranked. We had a typiCal ending, with the administration helping, but the idea of a top recruiter playing more like a three point shooting NBA team (Warriors should be the model) is where we should be thinking.

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Big C
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In reply to eastcoastcal • 9:38p, 3/20/23
eastcoastcal said:
All of this is neither here nor there-- the point is Cuonzo showed quite recently that you can get top recruits to Cal, but you have to be a relentless worker and someone who understands how to sell Cal. Fox did not understand this at all obviously, but Pasternack very well might, especially if he surrounds himself with guys that have been mentioned here:
Lou richie, jerome, theo, richard midgley, lamond, etc. Pasternack has the connections with the programs, a track record of winning as a HC, and with the right staff full of Cal guys who can a) coach shooting b) be life mentors to these kids and c) sell cal to recruits and their families, we will be golden

The other thing I hope to see is a willingness to promote the program and be "the face" of Cal hoops- invite students to come to games, go to the dorms and frats, encourage bay area basketball fans who have been priced out of Warriors games to attend; make Haas ENEMY TERRITORY for opposing teams- they should feel 40 minutes of hell from playing in our arena


ah, the wisdom of youth...
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Pittstop
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In reply to calumnus • 11:37p, 3/20/23
I mostly agree with your analysis of what is required for a coach to win at Cal, as well as the characteristics of the school and of the area that recruits should find highly attractive. Except that Mike Montgomery showed that winning could be accomplished with good coaching and sound basketball and discipline, and both offensive and defensive fundamentals, even though MM was never a gangbusters recruiter. SOME coaches can just coach.
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