All-Time Cal Basketball Team

Jclay09
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I'll only included players I watched. My list:

PG - Jason Kidd
SG - Ed Gray
SF - Lamond Murray
PF - Shareef Abdur-Rahim
C - Yogi Stewart
g - Jerome Randle
f - Joe Shipp
pf - Leon “The Show” Powe
sg - Randy Duck
pg - Jorge Gutierrez
f/c - Harper Kamp
sf - Theo Robertson

Also considered: Lampley (wavered on him vs Shipp. Very close.), Crabbe, Rabb, Ubaka, Mathews, Christopher, Weathers, Midgley, Tamir, Cobbs, Grigsby, Anderson, Carlisle

Not a lot of shotblocking but a ton of shooting, rebounding, and playmaking.
caltagjohnson
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UrsaMajor;842835938 said:

I don't know about that; did you see Imhoff play?


Picking players at random is interesting. If you want to pick an all time Cal team, that would be 1959-1960. Pete Newell's NCAA championship team. I graduated in 1960 and never missed a home game. I have never seen a Cal team that played with such precision. It was like a symphony. Basketball style, Hands down, Newelll was the all time best college coach.
joe amos yaks
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caltagjohnson;842865915 said:

Picking players at random is interesting. If you want to pick an all time Cal team, that would be 1959-1960. Pete Newell's NCAA championship team. I graduated in 1960 and never missed a home game. I have never seen a Cal team that played with such precision. It was like a symphony. Basketball style, Hands down, Newelll was the all time best college coach.


I was in HS (El Cerrito) in 1960, but saw Coach Newell's teams (1954-60) and I agree about their precision play and their conditioning regimen. I, too, think Coach Newell is the all time greatest.

Though it pains me to say it, the passing and ball movement of Coach Wooden's uCLA teams that followed was also very impressive and fun to watch, especially with G Goodrich and G Hazzard in the backcourt.
SFCityBear
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caltagjohnson;842865915 said:

Picking players at random is interesting. If you want to pick an all time Cal team, that would be 1959-1960. Pete Newell's NCAA championship team. I graduated in 1960 and never missed a home game. I have never seen a Cal team that played with such precision. It was like a symphony. Basketball style, Hands down, Newelll was the all time best college coach.


A tiny correction, but I think when you chose the Cal NCAA championship team as the best Cal team ever, you meant 1958-59. Cal's 1959-60 team was ranked #1 for much of the season, but lost to Ohio State in the NCAA Final. At the time, many thought that was Cal's best team ever, until they got rolled by Ohio State, maybe the most talented team in NCAA history.

I think you hit the nail on the head by stating that picking players at random is interesting, and then picking your all-time Cal team as an actual team that actually won something like an NCAA title.

Basketball has traditionally been played by coaches who comb neighborhoods for the best recruits and then try to mold them into a team to the best of their ability. The great players have great egos, and are used to being the center of attention, and often coaches let them play, and if they are good enough, one of them can carry a team. Get two of them playing together, and that can carry a team a long way into the NCAA tournament.

Fans may not know this, but in 1955, some local sportswriters and fans were upset at Cal hiring Pete Newell. Today, fans forget or don't know about the lumps that Cal and Newell took in his first few seasons at Cal, as Cal won some games, but could seldom beat teams with superior talented players. Cal under Newell never beat USF. He lost badly to the NCAA champs with Russell, KC Jones, and Jerry Mullen in his first season, and USF was even better in 1956, with Russell, Jones, Mike Farmer, Carl Boldt, and Hal Perry. Newell embarrassed himself by having Cal hold the ball for several minutes trying to draw Russell away from the basket, and Cal lost. In 1957, USF beat Cal with Art Day, Gene Brown, and Farmer, and again in 1958 with Freddie LaCour, Day, Brown, and Farmer.

Stanford with All-Americans Ron Tomsic and George Selleck beat Cal FOUR TIMES in 1955, and twice more in 1956. Santa Clara, with the great Kenny Sears defeated Cal in 1955. UCLA, with the great Willie Naulls, plus Morrie Taft, Don Bragg, and John Moore beat Cal four times in 1955, and with Naulls and Taft beat Cal twice in 1956. With Walt Torrence, Dick Banton, and Ben Rogers, they beat Cal in 1957, until Newell finally beat Wooden in the rematch in 1957. Newell would never lose to Wooden again, winning the next 8 straight.

In 1957, Cal would lose to Kansas and the great Wilt Chamberlain by 10 points at Harmon, and lose by 6 to Kansas and Wilt in Kansas in 1958. That same year Cal would lose to the great Elgin Baylor and Seattle in the Regional final. In 1959, Cal would lose at Harmon to #3 Kansas State with the great Bob Boozer. These guys were unstoppable for almost any opponent, but Newell and Cal almost did beat their teams.

What Newell brought to the game of basketball was being able to form a team of less talented recruits, and by teaching them techniques, strategy, and tactics, they could compete with the team which had better material. Gradually, over time his teams learned to compete with the great teams and stop or slow down the great players. By late season in 1959 through to 1960, teams with great stars like Oscar Robertson and Jerry West were unable to beat Cal.

He taught the importance of teamwork. When you get the stars like Cal had the last couple of seasons, it was sad to see them have so little success working together. When you have an inside guy like Rabb, and some outside guys like Brown and Wallace, they have to look for each other, either to get open or to play off one another. Rabb can't do anything unless you give him the ball, and if he is doubled, that frees one of the other 4 players for a shot. Rabb needed to be coached to get open, and Brown and Wallace needed to be coached to get the ball to him.

I wish the decision makers in the athletic department would spend at least as much time evaluating possible coaches as they do evaluating recruits. With the exception of Mike Montgomery, Cal hasn't hired a good basketball coach since Newell. They are rare, it is true, but we could have done better. Wyking Jones is another gamble, an inexperienced coach coming from a staff led by a coach who could not coach. Let us hope that Wyking Jones brings us more of Pitino than Martin. If he brings half of what Newell did for Cal, I'll be real happy.
joe amos yaks
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>"...in 1958. That same year Cal would lose to the great Elgin Baylor and Seattle in the Regional final. In 1959, Cal would lose at Harmon to #3 Kansas State with the great Bob Boozer..."<

I saw both of those games...KStu (Bob Boozer) at Harmon and Su (Elgin Baylor) in the regionals on TV.

BTW-- I also at/saw OSu (with Mel Counts and Terry Baker) first take down uSF (with Ollie Johnson and future coaches Brovelli and Belluomini and others) and then blitz ASu (with the great Jumpin' Joe Caldwell) at the 1963 Western Regionals in Provo, UT.

Coach Wooden's "loaded" uCLA team (with Hazzard and Goodrich, et al) was hammered by ASu in the (1963) Thursday game, as Asu couldn't miss and Caldwell was slammin' home dunks from all angles...reverse dunks and switching hands.

So who prevailed as the 1963 NCAA CBB champion? It was Chicago Loyola (Jerry Harkness and Johnny Egan) over uCinn (Ron Bonham) in the championship game in Louisville, KY.
caltagjohnson
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RichyBear;842836573 said:

Plus 100.

I'd go a step further. Dick Dougherty (sp), Imhoff's backup, would start ahead of many centers who started for Cal since, especially the 2 we now have. I was still in high school when these guys played, but I watch some of the games on tv. On a Friday-Saturday set of games against Stanford, Imhoff got in foul trouble in both games. Dougherty played most of the 2 games and made player of the week.


I was at the famous Cal-USF game where Cal tried to get Russell out from under the basket. Doughery was the guy who held the ball near the center line for several minutes at a time. Russell never came out. I think this game was the reason we have timing in possessions. KC Jones broke the game open.
joe amos yaks
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Dick Doughty...(sp).
SFCityBear
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joe yaks;842866117 said:

>"...in 1958. That same year Cal would lose to the great Elgin Baylor and Seattle in the Regional final. In 1959, Cal would lose at Harmon to #3 Kansas State with the great Bob Boozer..."<

I saw both of those games...KStu (Bob Boozer) at Harmon and Su (Elgin Baylor) in the regionals on TV.

BTW-- I also at/saw OSu (with Mel Counts and Terry Baker) first take down uSF (with Ollie Johnson and future coaches Brovelli and Belluomini and others) and then blitz ASu (with the great Jumpin' Joe Caldwell) at the 1963 Western Regionals in Provo, UT.

Coach Wooden's "loaded" uCLA team (with Hazzard and Goodrich, et al) was hammered by ASu in the (1963) Thursday game, as Asu couldn't miss and Caldwell was slammin' home dunks from all angles...reverse dunks and switching hands.

So who prevailed as the 1963 NCAA CBB champion? It was Chicago Loyola (Jerry Harkness and Johnny Egan) over uCinn (Ron Bonham) in the championship game in Louisville, KY.


Boy, you sure did get around in those days. And saw some incredible basketball.

All those teams except UCLA have had a long drought in high NCAA rankings since 1963. Cal, Seattle, Kansas State, Oregon State, USF, ASU, Chicago Loyola, and Cincinnati. How college basketball has changed in 50 years. When Cal played USF in a recent NCAA tournament, I had to swallow hard to make myself admit there was another USF basketball team, and it didn't play its home games in the Bay Area. University of South Florida. Yuk.

I remember a Warriors-Hawks game at Civic Auditorium where it went into double or triple overtime, and turned into a two-man affair, Jumping Joe Caldwell vs Jeff Mullins. The both scored 40 points and Mullins won it with a floater in the lane. My tax man was on the ASU team with Joe Caldwell, and had to guard him in practice. Amazing athlete. He could play in the NBA today.
joe amos yaks
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I have 4 younger sisters, one at BYu (Provo) in 1963. I was visiting. The western regionals were played in the old Smith Fieldhouse (capacity 14k). Marriott Center (capacity 24k) was built years later.

If I correctly recall Joe Caldwell was one of the top college high jumpers in 1962-64. His ASu teammate who guarded him in practice was __ Burton? (edit__Becker?)

Btw-- Heisman QB Terry Baker was a most excellent basketball player, and teamed with Mel Counts made OSu a very good team for Slats Gill.

I want to mention the great Dick Hunn. I attended my first Cal basketball game back in 1954 with a group of kids organized by Coach Hunn a former Cal Bear basketball and tennis player (class of 1944). Coach Hunn was then director of the El Cerrito Parks and Recreation Department and coached at El Cerrito HS.
kelly09
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SFCityBear;842866610 said:

Boy, you sure did get around in those days. And saw some incredible basketball.

All those teams except UCLA have had a long drought in high NCAA rankings since 1963. Cal, Seattle, Kansas State, Oregon State, USF, ASU, Chicago Loyola, and Cincinnati. How college basketball has changed in 50 years. When Cal played USF in a recent NCAA tournament, I had to swallow hard to make myself admit there was another USF basketball team, and it didn't play its home games in the Bay Area. University of South Florida. Yuk.

I remember a Warriors-Hawks game at Civic Auditorium where it went into double or triple overtime, and turned into a two-man affair, Jumping Joe Caldwell vs Jeff Mullins. The both scored 40 points and Mullins won it with a floater in the lane. My tax man was on the ASU team with Joe Caldwell, and had to guard him in practice. Amazing athlete. He could play in the NBA today.


I remember the game. Caldwell could very well play today. So could Jeff.
SFCityBear
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joe yaks said:

I have 4 younger sisters, one at BYu (Provo) in 1963. I was visiting. The western regionals were played in the old Smith Fieldhouse (capacity 14k). Marriott Center (capacity 24k) was built years later.

If I correctly recall Joe Caldwell was one of the top college high jumpers in 1962-64. His ASu teammate who guarded him in practice was __ Burton? (edit__Becker?)

Btw-- Heisman QB Terry Baker was a most excellent basketball player, and teamed with Mel Counts made OSu a very good team for Slats Gill.

I want to mention the great Dick Hunn. I attended my first Cal basketball game back in 1954 with a group of kids organized by Coach Hunn a former Cal Bear basketball and tennis player (class of 1944). Coach Hunn was then director of the El Cerrito Parks and Recreation Department and coached at El Cerrito HS.
That must have been interesting ---- growing up with 4 younger sisters.

Joe Caldwell: My tax man was probably a teammate of Caldwell on ASU's freshman basketball team in 1960-61. He used to talk about trying to guard Caldwell as being nearly impossible. My friend's name was Greenbach, and I think maybe getting humiliated by Caldwell might have made him quit the basketball program after a year to concentrate on baseball. He was a pitcher, became a starter, and later he was on ASU's NCAA Championship baseball team with Reggie Jackson and Sal Bando.

I think you are right about Caldwell being one of the country's top college high jumpers. I looked up some records, and Caldwell won the WAC conference high jump championship in 1963 and 1964, jumping 6'-6.5" in 1963 and 6'-8.75" in 1964. For comparison John Thomas and John Rambo finished 2nd and 3rd in the 1964 Olympics, both jumping a little over 7'-1". Caldwell graduated ASU in 1964, and John Thomas graduated Boston U in 1964. Thomas won the NCAA high jump title in 1960 and 1961, and Rambo won it in 1964, competing for Long Beach State. Roger Olsen of Cal jumped 6'-10" to win the NCAA high jump in 1962. All these men used the scissors style of jumping, long before the Fosbury Flop came into existence and all the high jump records were shattered.

In an interview, Caldwell said he "ran track for ASU", so he may have done that as well. Many people talked about his great speed. Hall of Famer Walt Frazier said Caldwell was the best defender he ever faced.

I will try and find my tax man to corroborate all this info. This is his off-season, so he may be out on a cruise ship somewhere.

Here is an old ABA film clip of Joe Caldwell in action:






joe amos yaks
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Thanks for the video of Joe Caldwell. The ABA used the multi-colored ball. It was distracting.

Yes, I have four younger sisters and four brothers (one older), and it was fun.

Coach Bobby Winkles had some great baseball teams at ASu. Add Rick Monday to that ASu roster. I saw them play a game against Mesa College.

Also, my sister's roommate's boy friend at BYu was a talented runner (sprinter) from southern California named Larry Kelly. Lad ran the 440 yds in 45+ secs and still finished 3rd in the WAC. His rivals were great runners named Ulis Williams (ASu) and Adolph Plummer (uNew Mexico), but on the coast Coach Bud Winter's Spartans Tommy Smith, John Carlos, Lee Evans, and Wayne Herman were the rising stars at SJStu.

The was 3 years after Cal's great Olympian Jack Yerman was leaving 440 runners in the cinder dust.
kelly09
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SFCityBear said:

joe yaks;842866117 said:

>"...in 1958. That same year Cal would lose to the great Elgin Baylor and Seattle in the Regional final. In 1959, Cal would lose at Harmon to #3 Kansas State with the great Bob Boozer..."<

I saw both of those games...KStu (Bob Boozer) at Harmon and Su (Elgin Baylor) in the regionals on TV.

BTW-- I also at/saw OSu (with Mel Counts and Terry Baker) first take down uSF (with Ollie Johnson and future coaches Brovelli and Belluomini and others) and then blitz ASu (with the great Jumpin' Joe Caldwell) at the 1963 Western Regionals in Provo, UT.

Coach Wooden's "loaded" uCLA team (with Hazzard and Goodrich, et al) was hammered by ASu in the (1963) Thursday game, as Asu couldn't miss and Caldwell was slammin' home dunks from all angles...reverse dunks and switching hands.

So who prevailed as the 1963 NCAA CBB champion? It was Chicago Loyola (Jerry Harkness and Johnny Egan) over uCinn (Ron Bonham) in the championship game in Louisville, KY.


Boy, you sure did get around in those days. And saw some incredible basketball.

All those teams except UCLA have had a long drought in high NCAA rankings since 1963. Cal, Seattle, Kansas State, Oregon State, USF, ASU, Chicago Loyola, and Cincinnati. How college basketball has changed in 50 years. When Cal played USF in a recent NCAA tournament, I had to swallow hard to make myself admit there was another USF basketball team, and it didn't play its home games in the Bay Area. University of South Florida. Yuk.

I remember a Warriors-Hawks game at Civic Auditorium where it went into double or triple overtime, and turned into a two-man affair, Jumping Joe Caldwell vs Jeff Mullins. The both scored 40 points and Mullins won it with a floater in the lane. My tax man was on the ASU team with Joe Caldwell, and had to guard him in practice. Amazing athlete. He could play in the NBA today.
Both Joe Yaks and SFCB bring back great memories. This whole thread has been wonderful. I'd like to throw out a name that few of you have heard about but he was great iin 1957. Don McIntosh.
joe amos yaks
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Who could forget our great "small" 6'6" center Don McIntosh (1956-58).

In 1956-58 I listened to almost every PCC game on my desk radio while studying. It was cool and he was my teacher's favorite. Every day in PE it was, "McIntosh shoots this way and McIntosh did that, and then hit the jump shot after doing . . . etc."

He averaged almost 12.0 pts and 8.0 rebounds per game and lead the 1958 Bears to the NCAA Tournament regional final. He was first team all-PCC and team MVP (1958). I think he played one season against uCLA's great Willie Naulls and one other against $uSC's John Rudometkin.

Just remembering the 1959 Pacific Coast Conference (PCC) *member schools were:
Cal
uOregon
Oregon State College
uWashington
Washington State College
Farm
uIdaho
$uSC
Ucla

*uMontana was dropped in 1950.
bearmanpg
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SFCityBear said:

joe yaks said:

I have 4 younger sisters, one at BYu (Provo) in 1963. I was visiting. The western regionals were played in the old Smith Fieldhouse (capacity 14k). Marriott Center (capacity 24k) was built years later.

If I correctly recall Joe Caldwell was one of the top college high jumpers in 1962-64. His ASu teammate who guarded him in practice was __ Burton? (edit__Becker?)

Btw-- Heisman QB Terry Baker was a most excellent basketball player, and teamed with Mel Counts made OSu a very good team for Slats Gill.

I want to mention the great Dick Hunn. I attended my first Cal basketball game back in 1954 with a group of kids organized by Coach Hunn a former Cal Bear basketball and tennis player (class of 1944). Coach Hunn was then director of the El Cerrito Parks and Recreation Department and coached at El Cerrito HS.
That must have been interesting ---- growing up with 4 younger sisters.

Joe Caldwell: My tax man was probably a teammate of Caldwell on ASU's freshman basketball team in 1960-61. He used to talk about trying to guard Caldwell as being nearly impossible. My friend's name was Greenbach, and I think maybe getting humiliated by Caldwell might have made him quit the basketball program after a year to concentrate on baseball. He was a pitcher, became a starter, and later he was on ASU's NCAA Championship baseball team with Reggie Jackson and Sal Bando.

I think you are right about Caldwell being one of the country's top college high jumpers. I looked up some records, and Caldwell won the WAC conference high jump championship in 1963 and 1964, jumping 6'-6.5" in 1963 and 6'-8.75" in 1964. For comparison John Thomas and John Rambo finished 2nd and 3rd in the 1964 Olympics, both jumping a little over 7'-1". Caldwell graduated ASU in 1964, and John Thomas graduated Boston U in 1964. Thomas won the NCAA high jump title in 1960 and 1961, and Rambo won it in 1964, competing for Long Beach State. Roger Olsen of Cal jumped 6'-10" to win the NCAA high jump in 1962. All these men used the scissors style of jumping, long before the Fosbury Flop came into existence and all the high jump records were shattered.

In an interview, Caldwell said he "ran track for ASU", so he may have done that as well. Many people talked about his great speed. Hall of Famer Walt Frazier said Caldwell was the best defender he ever faced.

I will try and find my tax man to corroborate all this info. This is his off-season, so he may be out on a cruise ship somewhere.

Here is an old ABA film clip of Joe Caldwell in action:



I don't know about Rambo or Olsen but John Thomas definitely didn't use the "scissors style" of high jumping....Thomas used what was called "The Western Roll" and I have no idea why they called it that other than the rolling of the body as you cleared the bar....here is a clip of Thomas to prove it.....




SFCityBear
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joe yaks said:

Who could forget our great "small" 6'6" center Don McIntosh (1956-58).

In 1956-58 I listened to almost every PCC game on my desk radio while studying. It was cool and he was my teacher's favorite. Every day in PE it was, "McIntosh shoots this way and McIntosh did that, and then hit the jump shot after doing . . . etc."

He averaged almost 12.0 pts and 8.0 rebounds per game and lead the 1958 Bears to the NCAA Tournament regional final. He was first team all-PCC and team MVP (1958). I think he played one season against uCLA's great Willie Naulls and one other against $uSC's John Rudometkin.

Just remembering the 1959 Pacific Coast Conference (PCC) *member schools were:
Cal
uOregon
Oregon State College
uWashington
Washington State College
Farm
uIdaho
$uSC
Ucla

*uMontana was dropped in 1950.
I'd add that in 1957-58, McIntosh also led the Bears in Field Goal % at 0.417, and Free Throw % at 0.787. In the Bears' overtime loss to Seattle and Elgin Baylor in the NCAA Western Regional Final (Elite 8), McIntosh led the Bears with 16 points and 10 rebounds. He also played against Doug Smart of UW, 6-9 Art Day of #6 USF, 6-9 Jack Parr and 6-8 Bob Boozer of #3 Kansas State, and 7-1 Wilt Chamberlain of #2 Kansas. He held Chamberlain below his average, as the Bears lost 58-52 in Kansas.

1959 was the last year of the PCC. It was disbanded that year due to the pay-for-play scandals at Cal, UCLA, USC, and UW. In July of 1959, those four schools formed the AAWU conference, and a month later Stanford joined, and later WSU joined. Even later Oregon and Oregon State were added to make the PAC8.






SFCityBear
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bearmanpg said:

SFCityBear said:

joe yaks said:

I
I don't know about Rambo or Olsen but John Thomas definitely didn't use the "scissors style" of high jumping....Thomas used what was called "The Western Roll" and I have no idea why they called it that other than the rolling of the body as you cleared the bar....here is a clip of Thomas to prove it.....





I don't know who posted this, but thanks. I stand corrected.
SFCityBear
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kelly09 said:


Both Joe Yaks and SFCB bring back great memories. This whole thread has been wonderful. I'd like to throw out a name that few of you have heard about but he was great iin 1957. Don McIntosh.
He was only 6'-6" tall. Imagine him trying to guard Wilt Chamberlain. And he did pretty a good job of it, too. He was the best player on the 2nd or 3rd best basketball team in Cal history, 1957-58, and he is not even in the Cal Athletic hall of Fame. What a travesty.
kelly09
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sfcb
I went to the AAU tournament at Kezar Pavilion, I sat with Al Buch and we watched a game between (I swear I think the was the name) between Joe's Barbershop and the mighty Olympic Club. Joe's had Don Mcintosh and Mike Diaz. No one else and they won. Al, who had just finishedhis freshman year at Cal went bananas. It was a Sunday afternoon. Great memories!
SFCityBear
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kelly09 said:

sfcb
I went to the AAU tournament at Kezar Pavilion, I sat with Al Buch and we watched a game between (I swear I think the was the name) between Joe's Barbershop and the mighty Olympic Club. Joe's had Don Mcintosh and Mike Diaz. No one else and they won. Al, who had just finishedhis freshman year at Cal went bananas. It was a Sunday afternoon. Great memories.
Kelly, very cool memory. A lot of AAU teams were better than NBA teams in those days, as many of the best players opted for the AAU. That way they could hold jobs and work while playing basketball, instead of trying to make it on the small NBA salaries. Olympic Club had some good teams. I think they had Tom Meschery while he was still in high school or just graduated, and they lost to the Phillips Oilers in the finals one year, as I remember. Ron Tomsic also played for them i think. Andy Wolfe, Chuck Hanger, and I think Bob Hogeboom played for Stewart Chevrolet, and Cal used to schedule them.

I spent a whole lot of hours working out with Cal center Camden Wall on the court across the street from Putnam Hall, trying to develop a floater like Al Buch had. He could hang in the air for a long time, it seemed. MIke Diaz, didn't he leave school early or something? I don't remember him playing in his senior year.
joe amos yaks
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Then there was the late but great Charles Dumas out of Compton JC (later $uSC). The first man to high jump 7' (1956). Dumas used the straddle jumping technique, not the more popular western roll.
UrsaMajor
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As a junior high school high jumper (I gave it up for swimming because I couldn't jump very high ), I remember the "western roll." I think it got that name to distinguish it from the "eastern style," which was more like a back roll, although not jumping backward like the Fosbury Flop. Now why the other was "eastern" I have no idea.
bearmanpg
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The reason I remember the western roll vs the scissors technique is the first day (and last day) that I high jumped, I had gone 5' 10" using the western roll....my buddy who had talked me into high jumping in the first place said that I might do better with the scissors method....he explained how it worked and I gave it a try....the results were a lost front tooth when I jacked my knee up to my mouth and gave myself the biggest fat lip I've ever seen...as I said....it was my last day too....
SFCityBear
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bearmanpg said:

The reason I remember the western roll vs the scissors technique is the first day (and last day) that I high jumped, I had gone 5' 10" using the western roll....my buddy who had talked me into high jumping in the first place said that I might do better with the scissors method....he explained how it worked and I gave it a try....the results were a lost front tooth when I jacked my knee up to my mouth and gave myself the biggest fat lip I've ever seen...as I said....it was my last day too....
I clearly made an error when I called the high jumping technique of John Thomas, John Rambo, Roger Olsen, and probably Joe Caldwell as being of the Scissors technique.

Here is information I culled from Wiki:

The Scissors style was first used in the 19th century, through the turn of the 20th century.

George Horine developed the Western Roll style, and with it set the world record of 6'-7" in 1912.

The Western Roll would become the dominant technique from 1912 until the 1936 Olympics, which was won by Cornelius Johnson. During the Olympic trials, Johnson, using the Western Roll and Dave Albritton, using the new Straddle technique, both set the world record at 6'-9.75". Albritton became the first Straddle jumper to hold the world record.

The Straddle technique came to dominate jumping in the mid-1950s. Walter Davis was the last Western Roll jumper to set the world record, in 1953, with a jump of 6'-11.5". Then as Joe Yaks has told us, Charles Dumas became the first jumper to clear 7 feet, at the Olympic Trials in 1956, using the Straddle technique. When Dumas made that jump, the Western Roll began to disappear.

John Thomas was the first to clear 7 feet indoors in 1958, using the Straddle style, and broke the world record 3 times. His career best was 7'-3.75", set in 1960. The video you posted showed that Thomas was clearly face down as he crossed the bar. Wiki explains the difference between Western Roll and Straddle is that in the Straddle, you roll your body and are face down when you cross the bar. So if Wiki is correct, then Thomas was using the Straddle technique.

Valeriy Brumel dominated the sport for a few years, using the Straddle, pushing the world record to 7'-5.75" in 1963.

Taking advantage of the new softer landing pits, Dick Fosbury invented the Flop technique, with which he won the 1968 Olympic Gold Medal. Dwight Stones used the Flop to set 3 world records, the last in 1976. The last to use the Straddle style was Vladimir Yaschenko, who set the world record in 1978. Since then the world record has been held by jumpers using the Flop.

In retrospect, I should have said that Thomas used the Straddle technique, and based on the period in which they jumped, the 1960s, it is likely that Rambo, Olsen, and Joe Caldwell used the Straddle technique also.

Thanks to you and others, I have educated myself on high jump styles (if Wiki is right, which is not always the case).




Calbear73
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PG - Jason Kidd, Kevin Johnson
SG - Phil Chenier, Ed Gray, Russ Critchfield
SF - Lamond Murray, Ryan Anderson
PF - Shareef Abdul Raheem, Leon Powe
C - Mark McNamara, Bob Presley, Imhoff


Point Guard - Jason Kidd is one of the best point guards to ever play in college and the NBA. Unbelievable passer, great scorer and tremendous defender. Strong and powerful, he could win games in a variety of ways.. Not the best shooter, he improved his shooting in his NBA career, but he found ways to score. He could dominate a game without scoring a lot of points. The upset of Duke in the NCAA's was one of Cal's best wins ever.

Kevin Johnson was simply one of the fastest players to ever play for the Bears. Not a great shooter, but great leader, ball handler & passer and could break down a defense with his quickness.

Shooting Guard - Phil Chenier was ahead of his time, one of the best pure shooters Cal has ever had and he could shoot equally well with either hand.Very good defender, great ball handler & passer and he had hops. John Wooden said losing him to Cal was one of the biggest recruiting losses of his career.

Ed Gray was instant offense and could score whether shooting or driving to the hoop. Also a good defender and could run the floor with anyone. Still think we would have beat North Carolina and Antawn Jamison in the NCAA's if he wasn't hurt.

Russ Critchfield would be the third shooting guard. Another great shooting who carried the team on his back in the days when we didn't have a great team. Not the tallest guard as I believe he was 6' or 6'1" but great shooter at a time when there were not a lot of great shooters. Again, it was a different time, but he could play today.

Shooting Forward - Lamond Murray was simply amazing at 6'7". The man could shoot, jump & rebound, score and could run with the best of them. He and Kidd were a dynamic duo on one of the best teams ever assembled at Cal.

Ryan Anderson was more of a power forward at Cal, but I would take him behind Murray because the man could shoot. Leterally transformed his body and game from high school to college. Amazing to watch him grow over this three years at Cal and based on his college performance, I would take him ahead of any other shooting forward Cal has had.

Power Forward - Shareef Abdur-Rahim was the best insider player in Cal history. He could score inside or out, great rebounder and one of the most athletic insider players ever at Cal. Freshman of the Year and PLayer of the Year in his only season at Cal. He could have easily gone into the NBA right out of high school and been a start. We may never see another player with his all-around skills.

Leon Powe was a powerful inside presence and scorer. He did the dirty work and carried the load while he was at Cal.

Center - Mark McNamarra played his last two seasons at Cal after transferring from St. Mary's. He was the most dominant big man ever to play at Cal. Yes, Imhoff won an NCAA championship and was a very good player for his time, but McNamarra was force inside scoring, defending and rebounding. No other center matched his all-around numbers.

Bob Presley simply had skills. One of the most athletic centers to ever play at Cal. He could score, rebound and defend. Don't feel like he ever reached his full potential, but this guy did enough in his time at Cal to make this team.

Darrel Imhoff would be on the team for winning the NCAA championship and getting to the finals twice. He played in the NBA and had a nice career. But no where near the skill of the more recent impact centers at Cal.
kelly09
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Calbear73 said:

PG - Jason Kidd, Kevin Johnson
SG - Phil Chenier, Ed Gray, Russ Critchfield
SF - Lamond Murray, Ryan Anderson
PF - Shareef Abdul Raheem, Leon Powe
C - Mark McNamara, Bob Presley, Imhoff


Point Guard - Jason Kidd is one of the best point guards to ever play in college and the NBA. Unbelievable passer, great scorer and tremendous defender. Strong and powerful, he could win games in a variety of ways.. Not the best shooter, he improved his shooting in his NBA career, but he found ways to score. He could dominate a game without scoring a lot of points. The upset of Duke in the NCAA's was one of Cal's best wins ever.

Kevin Johnson was simply one of the fastest players to ever play for the Bears. Not a great shooter, but great leader, ball handler & passer and could break down a defense with his quickness.

Shooting Guard - Phil Chenier was ahead of his time, one of the best pure shooters Cal has ever had and he could shoot equally well with either hand.Very good defender, great ball handler & passer and he had hops. John Wooden said losing him to Cal was one of the biggest recruiting losses of his career.

Ed Gray was instant offense and could score whether shooting or driving to the hoop. Also a good defender and could run the floor with anyone. Still think we would have beat North Carolina and Antawn Jamison in the NCAA's if he wasn't hurt.

Russ Critchfield would be the third shooting guard. Another great shooting who carried the team on his back in the days when we didn't have a great team. Not the tallest guard as I believe he was 6' or 6'1" but great shooter at a time when there were not a lot of great shooters. Again, it was a different time, but he could play today.

Shooting Forward - Lamond Murray was simply amazing at 6'7". The man could shoot, jump & rebound, score and could run with the best of them. He and Kidd were a dynamic duo on one of the best teams ever assembled at Cal.

Ryan Anderson was more of a power forward at Cal, but I would take him behind Murray because the man could shoot. Leterally transformed his body and game from high school to college. Amazing to watch him grow over this three years at Cal and based on his college performance, I would take him ahead of any other shooting forward Cal has had.

Power Forward - Shareef Abdur-Rahim was the best insider player in Cal history. He could score inside or out, great rebounder and one of the most athletic insider players ever at Cal. Freshman of the Year and PLayer of the Year in his only season at Cal. He could have easily gone into the NBA right out of high school and been a start. We may never see another player with his all-around skills.

Leon Powe was a powerful inside presence and scorer. He did the dirty work and carried the load while he was at Cal.

Center - Mark McNamarra played his last two seasons at Cal after transferring from St. Mary's. He was the most dominant big man ever to play at Cal. Yes, Imhoff won an NCAA championship and was a very good player for his time, but McNamarra was force inside scoring, defending and rebounding. No other center matched his all-around numbers.

Bob Presley simply had skills. One of the most athletic centers to ever play at Cal. He could score, rebound and defend. Don't feel like he ever reached his full potential, but this guy did enough in his time at Cal to make this team.

Darrel Imhoff would be on the team for winning the NCAA championship and getting to the finals twice. He played in the NBA and had a nice career. But no where near the skill of the more recent impact centers at Cal.
Darrell was a better player than McNamara. Far better than Presley.
stu
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Calbear73 said:


Center - Mark McNamarra played his last two seasons at Cal after transferring from St. Mary's. He was the most dominant big man ever to play at Cal. Yes, Imhoff won an NCAA championship and was a very good player for his time, but McNamarra was force inside scoring, defending and rebounding. No other center matched his all-around numbers.

McNamara transferred from Santa Clara. He was a master at inside positioning and averaged over 22 points (on 70% shooting) and 12 rebounds as a senior. However most of his game was within 3 feet of the hoop and he wasn't exactly fleet of foot. He also kept a pet snake.
kelly09
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caltagjohnson said:

RichyBear;842836573 said:

Plus 100.

I'd go a step further. Dick Dougherty (sp), Imhoff's backup, would start ahead of many centers who started for Cal since, especially the 2 we now have. I was still in high school when these guys played, but I watch some of the games on tv. On a Friday-Saturday set of games against Stanford, Imhoff got in foul trouble in both games. Dougherty played most of the 2 games and made player of the week.


I was at the famous Cal-USF game where Cal tried to get Russell out from under the basket. Doughery was the guy who held the ball near the center line for several minutes at a time. Russell never came out. I think this game was the reason we have timing in possessions.
It was Joe Hagler who held onto the ball.
kelly09
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SFCityBear said:

caltagjohnson;842865915 said:

Picking players at random is interesting. If you want to pick an all time Cal team, that would be 1959-1960. Pete Newell's NCAA championship team. I graduated in 1960 and never missed a home game. I have never seen a Cal team that played with such precision. It was like a symphony. Basketball style, Hands down, Newelll was the all time best college coach.


A tiny correction, but I think when you chose the Cal NCAA championship team as the best Cal team ever, you meant 1958-59. Cal's 1959-60 team was ranked #1 for much of the season, but lost to Ohio State in the NCAA Final. At the time, many thought that was Cal's best team ever, until they got rolled by Ohio State, maybe the most talented team in NCAA history.

I think you hit the nail on the head by stating that picking players at random is interesting, and then picking your all-time Cal team as an actual team that actually won something like an NCAA title.

Basketball has traditionally been played by coaches who comb neighborhoods for the best recruits and then try to mold them into a team to the best of their ability. The great players have great egos, and are used to being the center of attention, and often coaches let them play, and if they are good enough, one of them can carry a team. Get two of them playing together, and that can carry a team a long way into the NCAA tournament.

Fans may not know this, but in 1955, some local sportswriters and fans were upset at Cal hiring Pete Newell. Today, fans forget or don't know about the lumps that Cal and Newell took in his first few seasons at Cal, as Cal won some games, but could seldom beat teams with superior talented players. Cal under Newell never beat USF. He lost badly to the NCAA champs with Russell, KC Jones, and Jerry Mullen in his first season, and USF was even better in 1956, with Russell, Jones, Mike Farmer, Carl Boldt, and Hal Perry. Newell embarrassed himself by having Cal hold the ball for several minutes trying to draw Russell away from the basket, and Cal lost. In 1957, USF beat Cal with Art Day, Gene Brown, and Farmer, and again in 1958 with Freddie LaCour, Day, Brown, and Farmer.

Stanford with All-Americans Ron Tomsic and George Selleck beat Cal FOUR TIMES in 1955, and twice more in 1956. Santa Clara, with the great Kenny Sears defeated Cal in 1955. UCLA, with the great Willie Naulls, plus Morrie Taft, Don Bragg, and John Moore beat Cal four times in 1955, and with Naulls and Taft beat Cal twice in 1956. With Walt Torrence, Dick Banton, and Ben Rogers, they beat Cal in 1957, until Newell finally beat Wooden in the rematch in 1957. Newell would never lose to Wooden again, winning the next 8 straight.

In 1957, Cal would lose to Kansas and the great Wilt Chamberlain by 10 points at Harmon, and lose by 6 to Kansas and Wilt in Kansas in 1958. That same year Cal would lose to the great Elgin Baylor and Seattle in the Regional final. In 1959, Cal would lose at Harmon to #3 Kansas State with the great Bob Boozer. These guys were unstoppable for almost any opponent, but Newell and Cal almost did beat their teams.

What Newell brought to the game of basketball was being able to form a team of less talented recruits, and by teaching them techniques, strategy, and tactics, they could compete with the team which had better material. Gradually, over time his teams learned to compete with the great teams and stop or slow down the great players. By late season in 1959 through to 1960, teams with great stars like Oscar Robertson and Jerry West were unable to beat Cal.

He taught the importance of teamwork. When you get the stars like Cal had the last couple of seasons, it was sad to see them have so little success working together. When you have an inside guy like Rabb, and some outside guys like Brown and Wallace, they have to look for each other, either to get open or to play off one another. Rabb can't do anything unless you give him the ball, and if he is doubled, that frees one of the other 4 players for a shot. Rabb needed to be coached to get open, and Brown and Wallace needed to be coached to get the ball to him.

I wish the decision makers in the athletic department would spend at least as much time evaluating possible coaches as they do evaluating recruits. With the exception of Mike Montgomery, Cal hasn't hired a good basketball coach since Newell. They are rare, it is true, but we could have done better. Wyking Jones is another gamble, an inexperienced coach coming from a staff led by a coach who could not coach. Let us hope that Wyking Jones brings us more of Pitino than Martin. If he brings half of what Newell did for Cal, I'll be real happy.
No youngster can imagine how great Peete Newell was.
OdontoBear66
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Imhoff was the best we have ever had. +1
SFCityBear
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Calbear73 said:

PG - Jason Kidd, Kevin Johnson
SG - Phil Chenier, Ed Gray, Russ Critchfield
SF - Lamond Murray, Ryan Anderson
PF - Shareef Abdul Raheem, Leon Powe
C - Mark McNamara, Bob Presley, Imhoff

Point Guard - Jason Kidd is one of the best point guards to ever play in college and the NBA. Unbelievable passer, great scorer and tremendous defender. Strong and powerful, he could win games in a variety of ways.. Not the best shooter, he improved his shooting in his NBA career, but he found ways to score. He could dominate a game without scoring a lot of points. The upset of Duke in the NCAA's was one of Cal's best wins ever.


I agree, except for Kidd being a "great scorer". He was a good scorer at 15 ppg. Great scorers usually score over 20 ppg. And at 0.468 FG%, he was a good shooter.

Quote:

Kevin Johnson was simply one of the fastest players to ever play for the Bears. Not a great shooter, but great leader, ball handler & passer and could break down a defense with his quickness.


KJ "not a great shooter?" KJ shot the rock at 0.477 percentage at Cal. Among the guards and forwards, Jerome Randle shot 0.454, Allen Crabbe 0.446, Russ Critchfield 0.454, Theo Robertson 0.479, Charlie Perkins 0.514, Jason Kidd 0.468, Phil Chenier 0.412, and Charlie Johnson 0.400. Only Perkins and Theo on this list shot better than KJ.

Quote:

Shooting Guard - Phil Chenier was ahead of his time, one of the best pure shooters Cal has ever had and he could shoot equally well with either hand.Very good defender, great ball handler & passer and he had hops. John Wooden said losing him to Cal was one of the biggest recruiting losses of his career.


What do you mean by "ahead of his time" and "pure shooter"? He was a very good scorer and a good all-around player, but I always felt Charlie Johnson was the slightly better player of the two. Chenier the better scorer, CJ the better rebounder, passer, and defender. Chenier once said that CJ taught him how to be a better defensive player. In the NBA, CJ was a starting guard on two NBA champion teams.

Quote:

Ed Gray was instant offense and could score whether shooting or driving to the hoop. Also a good defender and could run the floor with anyone. Still think we would have beat North Carolina and Antawn Jamison in the NCAA's if he wasn't hurt.


I think you are right on this one.

Quote:

Russ Critchfield would be the third shooting guard. Another great shooting who carried the team on his back in the days when we didn't have a great team. Not the tallest guard as I believe he was 6' or 6'1" but great shooter at a time when there were not a lot of great shooters. Again, it was a different time, but he could play today.


I wouldn't put Rusty Critchfield 3rd behind anyone I've seen at Cal. Helluva clutch shooter. Loved the low cuts and floppy socks, pre-Pete Maravich. There were a lot of good shooters around in the AAWU when Rusty played. Most teams had one or two. The problem was that UCLA had about 7 of them. Cal had Charlie Perkins who shot 0.514, better than Critchfield. USC had Bob Hewitt (0.464), Tom Marsh (.541), and Mack Calvin (0.450). Stanford had Art Harris (0.481), UW had George Irvine (0.565). But UCLA had Lucius Allen (0.462), Lynn Shackleford (0.498), Edgar Lacey (0.578), Mike Lynn (0.457), and Kenny Heitz (0.500), not to mention Mike Warren and Kareem.

Quote:

Shooting Forward - Lamond Murray was simply amazing at 6'7". The man could shoot, jump & rebound, score and could run with the best of them. He and Kidd were a dynamic duo on one of the best teams ever assembled at Cal.


You are probably right. My personal favorite would be Larry Friend, then Murray. But other shooting forwards like Allen Crabbe, Jackie Ridgle, and Dan Wolthers were also fine scoring forwards at Cal.

Quote:

Ryan Anderson was more of a power forward at Cal, but I would take him behind Murray because the man could shoot. Leterally transformed his body and game from high school to college. Amazing to watch him grow over this three years at Cal and based on his college performance, I would take him ahead of any other shooting forward Cal has had.


Anderson WAS a power forward at Cal, and is a power forward in the NBA, though more of a stretch 4. Why not leave him at power forward on your Cal All-Time team, and name some other shooting forwards, perhaps, as your backups to Murray?

Quote:

Power Forward - Shareef Abdur-Rahim was the best insider player in Cal history. He could score inside or out, great rebounder and one of the most athletic insider players ever at Cal. Freshman of the Year and PLayer of the Year in his only season at Cal. He could have easily gone into the NBA right out of high school and been a start. We may never see another player with his all-around skills.


I'm in the minority, but I did not enjoy watching Cal when Shareef got the ball. The rest of the team cleared out one side of the court for Shareef, and went to the opposite side, so he could back his man down, back and forth, until he got close enough to score. Shareef's teammates made him better, and I prefer players who make their teammates better. 8 rebounds per game is a good rebounder, not a great one. He had only offensive skills from close in to mid range. He hardly ever passed the ball, and his defense never impressed me. He had all the inside scoring skills, but did not show great all-around skills, IMO.

Quote:

Leon Powe was a powerful inside presence and scorer. He did the dirty work and carried the load while he was at Cal.


Good description. He was a better rebounder than Shareef. When the ball went in to him, it didn't matter whether he had one, two, or three defenders, he would try and score. He seldom passed, was a fine rebounder and adequate defensively.

None of the big three, Anderson, Shareef, or Powe was much of a team player, looking to make their teammates better. They were all outstanding athletes. My personal favorite PF to watch was not quite of that caliber, but more of a team player, John Coughran. Al Grigsby was no slouch, either. And Bryan Hendrick was a very good PF, who could play center as well.

Quote:

Center - Mark McNamarra played his last two seasons at Cal after transferring from St. Mary's. He was the most dominant big man ever to play at Cal. Yes, Imhoff won an NCAA championship and was a very good player for his time, but McNamarra was force inside scoring, defending and rebounding. No other center matched his all-around numbers.


Total disagreement here. McNamara was dominant all right, all inside 3 feet, as Stu pointed out. He had no offense or defense outside 3 feet. Imhoff had a nice jumper to 12 feet, and a fine hook shot. He was not the scorer that McNamara was, unless it was in the clutch, where he was as good as anyone. They were equal in rebounding, with Imhoff the much better passer, and setting screens, running plays, etc. Imhoff's defense was way better than McNamara, either defending a center or blocking shots. Imhoff was the best center in the country for two seasons, and was a consensus first team All-American. He had much better numbers and career than McNamara in the NBA. And McNamara dropped a lot of passes, is my recollection. Cal's entire team, including Imhoff, made only 6 turnovers a game in 1960. McNamara made 2.5 TOs on his own.

I would pick Ansley Truitt as the second best center to play in the last 60 years at Cal. He was more athletic than Imhoff, was not quite the scorer McNamara was, but he did it with a variety of jumpers, hooks and layups. He was a better rebounder than either Imhoff or McNamara, and was a team player as well as a fine defender. The best all-around center to play at Cal, IMO.

Dick Doughty, Imhoff's backup was nearly as good as Imhoff any time he got the chance. Leonard Taylor scored nearly 20 ppg his last two years, and was a good center for 4 seasons. Beside Imhoff, Doughty and Truitt, several other centers were better than McNamara on defense: Bob Presley, Jamal Sampson, Yogi Stewart, Francisco Elson, Devon Hardin and Richard Solomon.

Quote:

Bob Presley simply had skills. One of the most athletic centers to ever play at Cal. He could score, rebound and defend. Don't feel like he ever reached his full potential, but this guy did enough in his time at Cal to make this team.


Presley had few skills. He had great anticipation for rebounds and shot blocks, but had few offensive skills, other than he could out leap anyone. He was OK as a defender except when he played the stronger centers. I wouldn't put him on an all-time team, because he and some of his teammates did all they could to disrupt the Cal team, threatening to boycott the team unless they were given more opportunities. They joined the Black football players in a boycott, and ended up forcing the resignation of Rene Herrerias and Pete Newell, which wrecked the Cal basketball program for years to come.

Quote:

Darrel Imhoff would be on the team for winning the NCAA championship and getting to the finals twice. He played in the NBA and had a nice career. But no where near the skill of the more recent impact centers at Cal.


"Recent impact centers?" Who would they be? Richard Solomon? Devon Hardin? Don't make me laugh. We haven't had an impact center since Mark McNamara, and he does not compare to Imhoff. Let me put it this way: On Cal's 1959 team, you could replace Imhoff with McNamara (or any other Cal center, except for maybe Truitt) and Cal would not have won that NCAA title in 1959. You can take that to the bank.
concordtom
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Excellent discussion, both of you guys!
So, who is you starting 5, and 5 backups, SFCity?
joe amos yaks
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I think Leonard Taylor would have moved to the top of the list if he hadn't had the chronic issues with his back.

I saw Bob Presley play many times. Those were interesting times. I was at the BSU's "egg throwing incident" game,

When Presley played well everybody was fine, but there were times when he was accused of not trying hard enough. I felt the accusations were unfair and driven by racism.

This team was a great group of kids playing in a difficult period in our great Country's history.

It is also a time when the "Westwood Whizzer" yammered about how he could win a NC with this group of Cal players.
barabbas
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Wes Unseld was at most 6'7" and he's in the Hall of Fame
barabbas
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UrsaMajor said:

I an see Yogi over Imhoff only because he had a far better NBA career (personally, I'd take Imhoff)

Don't agree at all!!! Imhoff played 12 years and made the 1967 all star team. Yogi played about 8 and was never close to being an all star.
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