Praise the lord and pass the ammunition. Was Counzo an ordained baptiste minister?
Go Bears!
I'd like to remind you that in 1955, Pete Newell's first year at Cal, his Cal team had only one conference win, finishing 1-11 in the conference and 9-16 over all. It would be Newell's worst year at Cal, and the worst year he ever had in a 14 year career as a head coach in D1 at USF, Michigan State, and Cal. Even though Cal had 9 wins overall that season, compared to 8 wins for Wyking Jones' 2018 Cal team, I'd say Newell's season was worse than Jones's season last year, for the simple fact that Jones had very little talent on the roster, comparatively. In 1955, previous 2nd-team All-American Bob McKeen started at center, and future 1st team All-American Larry Friend started at forward. Cal had no players last season of that caliber, no All-Americans, no All-Conference players.UCBerkGrad said:
I really hope the Chancellor and/or the AD have reached out to Kidd to gauge interest in coming to Cal to be our coach. If he is receptive they should immediately fire WJ and bring JKidd back home.
helltopay1 said:
Dear Mr. Cohen: My assertion doesn't have one ounce of poetry. it is the synthesis of 81 years of playing and observing sports. when we were in the second grade, everyone could tell who were the athletes and who were thge stiffs. Spoiler alert: The athletes in the second grade were still athletes later in life and the stiffs were still stiffs . My assertion still stands. 5 % nurture. ( the mean, medium and the mode not withstanding)
concordtom said:I disagree with this exact characterization of nature vs nurture, particularly when it comes to character.helltopay1 said:
Dear Mr. cohen: 'skills can be learned over a long period of time." I was a not a math major, but sustained success is roughly 95% nature and 5% nurture. ( nature includes pure athletic skills but also personality & character which are also largely acquired through DNA. Good coaching and a good support system make up the 5% nurture.
Ever see siblings who were very different from one another? Same genes, roughly.
There's more than goes into it than we understand!
I couldn't agree more.helltopay1 said:
Dear Bear Prof: At my tender age, it's becoming harder and harder for me to suffer fools gladly.
Dear helltopay1: If you had read my post a bit more slowly and then gone back and read YOUR post to which I was responding, at some point it might have dawned on you that Mr. Laird's first name is Patrick, not Scott, and that I was being sarcastic (in a loving, fraternal way, of course) and you wouldn't have made insinuations about my reading comprehension that actually reflected on yours. Again, my Cal brother, note that it is with love that I gently chide you. Go Bears!helltopay1 said:
Dear Big C: I am continuously amazed and chagrined by the tendency of many posters who insist on reading things in posts which are simply not there. Read the post carefully. At no time did I suggest or even attempt to suggest anything derogatory about our sterling running back. i am pleased as punch that young Mr. Laird will be sporting the blue & Gold this year, or, for that matter, any other year. what I said was obvious. laird was underrated coming out of an area which was not heavily scouted, and, I implied that he probably would have gotten hopelessly lost on the depth charts if he had gone to schools which usually recruit 4 and 5 star running backs out of high school. In the Pac 12 alone, please see Washington, Oregon, USC, UCLA, Stanford, and to a slightly lesser degree all the other schools in the Pac 12. Read posts for what they actually say and not for what you think they say. Man, oh man, recent educational standards as they relate to reading comprehension , logic and informed analysis have deteriorated to levels which would have been unrecognizable in my day. Or, as Freud would say, " sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." Translation : Stop looking for things which are not there. Thank you.
LOL....yes, let's not disrupt the momentum of the program. Worst season I've witnessed in 40 years from a coach that was part of the previous regime who put us in this position.helltopay1 said:
Dear Berkeley: you only gauge interest publicly when you are convinced that the current HC simply cannot function effectively either in the present or near future. Cal has not reached that point. Please fast-forward two years or so into the future. Reaching out now totally undermines staff and player confidence. In addition, it would totally destroy recruiting efforts as long as the uncertainty exists. There is a time and place for everything. Jumping ship before taking on water is usually not a good idea.
I think that administration believed CM was a hire character person when he was hired.oskidunker said:
Praise the lord and pass the ammunition. Was Counzo an ordained baptiste minister?
The way I look at it is that nature (genes, nutrition in utero and as an infant and young child) sets the range of possibility. Then nurture and inborn personality traits take over and determine how far the individual will go toward reaching their potential. If Einstein was confined to a white room with no stimulation or Marshawn Lynch was forced to sit on a couch and eat pizza all day as a child and teenager, neither would have reached their potential.Bearprof said:concordtom said:I disagree with this exact characterization of nature vs nurture, particularly when it comes to character.helltopay1 said:
Dear Mr. cohen: 'skills can be learned over a long period of time." I was a not a math major, but sustained success is roughly 95% nature and 5% nurture. ( nature includes pure athletic skills but also personality & character which are also largely acquired through DNA. Good coaching and a good support system make up the 5% nurture.
Ever see siblings who were very different from one another? Same genes, roughly.
There's more than goes into it than we understand!
Siblings share 50% of their genes on average, so not really the same genes, roughly. Still I believe nurture is more impressive than some on this board do.
Jason was sooo adept at seeing how a play would develop that Ryan Jamison (Jamo) would often be surprised by passes to him from Jason that would have led to an easy layup (or dunk). Unfortunately, many of these hit him in the face, since he wasn't expecting such a good pass. Finally, Jamo learned to almost always keep his hands up and ready to receive a pass.UrsaMajor said:Good point, SFCity. As you said, a great point guard can see all 9 other players, but a Jason Kidd level point guard goes one step further: he knows where all 9 other players are and where they are going without seeing them. I recall a presser of his where he explained how he was able to make a no look pass to Murray who was trailing him on a break without seeing Lamond--something to the effect that since he saw where two defenders were, he knew that Lamond had to be trailing on his right about 10 feet behind him.SFCityBear said:I don't think players can be coached up to play the way Jason Kidd played, unless you start at a very young age. Court vision, intuition, leadership, aggression, along with unselfishness are possessed by the extraordinarily gifted, and most of those talents usually appears at a young age, perhaps 10 years old or younger. A great point guard can see all nine other players at once, and act accordingly, utilizing his teammates to break down the defenders and create easy shots for his team. Some of those talents can be improved upon by coaching perhaps, but most of them the player is born with. There have been great point guards, but Jason may have been one of a kind. All just my opinion.oskidunker said:
Do you think Kidd would attract high level to turn the program around by coaching them up to the way he played? Or do you think the gpa requirement would be a stumbling block?
For demonstration purposes, I recommend taking one of the ancestry DNA tests for yourself and your child and either one of your siblings or one of their siblings. Although the ancestry genes are only a very minuscule selection of genes, it reinforces Ursa's point as well as GoCal80's combinatorial impact.UrsaMajor said:
Correction, BearProf: siblings share 25% of their genes on average (children share 50% on average with each parent).
I remember when I was a sophomore in high school, a new kid from West Covina transferred to our school. He played point guard, and later made All-City for us. In our first scrimmage, I got open, but I thought he didn't see me, and didn't pay enough attention to him, and all of a sudden he hit me with a pass, and I never saw it coming until the last second, and I lost the ball. He pulled me aside and said, "If I'm looking at you, I'm probably not going to pass you the ball. But if I'm not looking at you, be alert, because I'm probably going to pass you the ball."BeachedBear said:Jason was sooo adept at seeing how a play would develop that Ryan Jamison (Jamo) would often be surprised by passes to him from Jason that would have led to an easy layup (or dunk). Unfortunately, many of these hit him in the face, since he wasn't expecting such a good pass. Finally, Jamo learned to almost always keep his hands up and ready to receive a pass.UrsaMajor said:Good point, SFCity. As you said, a great point guard can see all 9 other players, but a Jason Kidd level point guard goes one step further: he knows where all 9 other players are and where they are going without seeing them. I recall a presser of his where he explained how he was able to make a no look pass to Murray who was trailing him on a break without seeing Lamond--something to the effect that since he saw where two defenders were, he knew that Lamond had to be trailing on his right about 10 feet behind him.SFCityBear said:I don't think players can be coached up to play the way Jason Kidd played, unless you start at a very young age. Court vision, intuition, leadership, aggression, along with unselfishness are possessed by the extraordinarily gifted, and most of those talents usually appears at a young age, perhaps 10 years old or younger. A great point guard can see all nine other players at once, and act accordingly, utilizing his teammates to break down the defenders and create easy shots for his team. Some of those talents can be improved upon by coaching perhaps, but most of them the player is born with. There have been great point guards, but Jason may have been one of a kind. All just my opinion.oskidunker said:
Do you think Kidd would attract high level to turn the program around by coaching them up to the way he played? Or do you think the gpa requirement would be a stumbling block?
Funny story. Quote heard from a guy who sat next to Ryan Jamison's HS coach or Father (can't recall) at a game when this development finally sunk in. . . "I've been trying to teach Ryan to do that for years. Kidd did it with just a few face passes".
Anyone who actually wants this job will make that a priority. Look at what Dykes did while he was here on the academic side. Surely his mediocre APR results at LaTech or his stints at Texas Tech and Arizona didn't sell his academic cred. Academic excellence at Cal flops or succeeds when the administration makes it a priority and a requirement. As it relates to the HC, it mostly matters in that he either is willing to stick around and put up with it, or he isn't. In this case, I would imagine Kidd would stick around given he wants to coach in the Bay and we're Cal.GoCal80 said:
Kidd will never coach at Cal. Anyone who thinks that this is a possibility does not understand the premium that the administration puts on hiring coaches who have unambiguously clean character histories and high promise for promoting academic excellence.
His name was Johnny Garber. He was All-City on Lowell's 112s, and then jumped to 130s, and played his last year starting for the varsity. He was not a great shot, and he got his pleasure just from setting other people up for easy baskets. He was a really good athlete. As a soph, the Lowell tennis coach invited him to come out for the tennis team, and he said he had never played before. Now, Lowell under this coach had won the City High School tennis championship every year and won state titles as well. The coach gave Johnny a racquet, and a star was born. he climbed up the tennis ladder to become our number one, and since he was too small to play basketball after high school, he became a tennis pro, and played on the pro tennis tour for many years.helltopay1 said:
Dear SF City Bear: What was the name of the transfer from West Covina? Did he eventually play 130's or varsity?
not terribly relevant, but in the interest of keeping the record straight:helltopay1 said:
Dear SF City Bear: I, too, have tales of balls hitting you in the face or head. Cappy Lavin, of USF fame and Steve Lavins' Dad, was the playground director at my grammar school in the City. (San Francisco, of course) If he didn't feel that you were playing well or were not responding to his passes, he would hurl the ball at full speed to the back of your head, or simply, your back. Not exactly a pleasant guy. Brilliant? Of course: He taught English at Marin Catholic for many years before he retired.
I understand some of your point, but most, or nearly all players do not start in the first year that they play in high school, college or the NBA. They sit on the bench. Mike Montgomery started only six freshmen in six years at Cal, by my count. Cuonzo Martin started 3 freshmen in 3 years. In Pete Newell's day, freshmen were not permitted to play varsity, but Newell only started four sophomores in his six year career at Cal. In Newell's first season, his worst at Cal, he started two sophs, Larry Friend and Mike Diaz. In Newell's second season, his second worst season, he started one soph, Earl Robinson. In the next four years, where Cal went to two elite 8s, won one NCAA title, and one runner-up finish, the only soph who started some games, was Bill McClintock, who shared the starting forward job with senior Jack Grout, who began the 1958-59 season as the starter. And McClintock was a 24-year old sophomore.mikecohen said:There are an awful lot of examples of guys who, in the pros, advanced from acceptable to All Star quality through improving skills they didn't have when they started, and without which they (like a lot of other guys) would not have stayed in the league for very long; and the same with guys in college who started out on the bench and wound up AA. One could say that such folks are examples of people whose high character is in their DNA; but, until the science gets to the point where such a statement could be backed up empirically, I would say that it deserves no more "provable truth" credit than any other poetically felt assertion.helltopay1 said:
Dear Mr. cohen: 'skills can be learned over a long period of time." I was a not a math major, but sustained success is roughly 95% nature and 5% nurture. ( nature includes pure athletic skills but also personality & character which are also largely acquired through DNA. Good coaching and a good support system make up the 5% nurture.
Dear helltopay1,helltopay1 said:
Dear SF City Bear: I, too, have tales of balls hitting you in the face or head. Cappy Lavin, of USF fame and Steve Lavins' Dad, was the playground director at my grammar school in the City. (San Francisco, of course) If he didn't feel that you were playing well or were not responding to his passes, he would hurl the ball at full speed to the back of your head, or simply, your back. Not exactly a pleasant guy. Brilliant? Of course: He taught English at Marin Catholic for many years before he retired.
I don't disagree with this, but I think I would modify it a little bit, by trying to define "stiff". Most players, great athletes or stiffs, and all those in between can improve with coaching. If you look at Mike Montgomery's players, most of them improved a little each year and were better as seniors than they were as freshmen. Look at Ben Braun's players, some improved, but most did not, IMO.helltopay1 said:
Dear Mr. Cohen: My assertion doesn't have one ounce of poetry. it is the synthesis of 81 years of playing and observing sports. when we were in the second grade, everyone could tell who were the athletes and who were thge stiffs. Spoiler alert: The athletes in the second grade were still athletes later in life and the stiffs were still stiffs . My assertion still stands. 5 % nurture. ( the mean, medium and the mode not withstanding)
Uh, no. He would have been ready for it. My dad had played for Ben Neff 25 years before. One day at practice, so the story goes, Ben Neff got angry and called my father a name which I can not repeat here, based on BI rules. My father knocked Neff flat on the floor with one punch. The next day, my father looks at the bulletin board, and he sees that Ben has promoted him to first string, and he started for the rest of his high school career. Maybe if I had socked Neff, I'd have been promoted too, and become a better player, but alas, it never happened.joe amos yaks said:
I don't suppose you threw the ball at Coach Neff's head when he walked away?
SFCityBear said:Uh, no. He would have been ready for it. My dad had played for Ben Neff 25 years before. One day at practice, so the story goes, Ben Neff got angry and called my father a name which I can not repeat here, based on BI rules. My father knocked Neff flat on the floor with one punch. The next day, my father looks at the bulletin board, and he sees that Ben has promoted him to first string, and he started for the rest of his high school career. Maybe if I had socked Neff, I'd have been promoted too, and become a better player, but alas, it never happened.joe amos yaks said:
I don't suppose you threw the ball at Coach Neff's head when he walked away?
I did learn, however, sometimes you have to hit a mule across the forehead with a two by four, in order to get its attention.
__
I worked cattle and other livestock several summers on my uncles' UT farm and ID ranch when I was a kid. It gets their attention and causes them to focus and redirect.
You have to pick the appropriate stick. It does not always work with livestock or kids.
I nearly got trampled on a foggy slope in Spain when a couple of belled cattle got scared about my presence. A friend's border collie redirected them.
So was my dad. Years later, of course.helltopay1 said:
Dear SFCB: Pretty impressive when you consider that Neff was on the boxing team at Cal.