Big Dog said:

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Quote:

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I hate to say this, but earlier in the season, the Bears had their chance to win the right to go to the Rose Bowl by beating UCLA themselves and failed, when Muncie dropped a wide open 4th down pass over the middle at Memorial Stadium. I was there and saw it happen.

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With all due respect, SFCity, Cal tied for the Pac8 Championship in 1975, and Cal visited the Coliseum to play UCLA that year. Cal lost to UCLA 28-14, and since they won the head-to-head, they went to the Rose Bowl. I remember the game well, since I received my first speeding ticket in Salinas as we drove down to the game.

(Joe Roth beat 'SC in Memorial that year. The '76 team had a losing record due, in part, to Joe's declining health.)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_California_Golden_Bears_football_team

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I have vivid memories of that game and weekend, all of them bad. I drove down to the UCLA game too. A guy I barely knew in the dorms overheard me discussing my plans to drive down Friday and he offered to let me stay with his family if I gave him ride down and back. Sounded great, so I took him up on it. The guy turned out to be a leech. I didn't have much in common with him and I couldn't do anything the whole weekend without him being right at my side. I didn't get down to LA often, so I was hoping to explore and he cramped my style. As bad as the game turned out, it was even worse because I developed a splitting headache right before kickoff and was miserable the whole rest of the night. Then the next day, I was in such a hurry to get back to Berkeley and be free of my traveling companion that, like you, I got a speeding ticket on I-5. I'd been doing about 80 to 85 the whole way, so I figured I'd earned it. Fortunately, I was only written up for doing 75.

no. i dont get it either.

This whole episode is very sad in so many ways. For the victim, Jabari, and their friends and families. The news that he had earlier sought treatment for anxiety issues takes me back to one of the very few beefs I have gotten into with another poster on this forum.

Recall that Jabari was a last minute scratch from the NCAA tournament game against Hawaii because of back spasms. That night, after the loss, a poster claimed that Jabari was "mentally weak," and such weakness caused him to either fake the back spasms, or to have the back spasms and/or to be unable to play through the spasms--he actually referred to the Ronnie Lott finger joint amputation episode as an example of someone who is mentally strong in the face of physical adversity. I defended Jabari and the string eventually reached the point of such craziness that the mods removed it.

Well, hmmm.....

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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...I have vivid memories of that game and weekend, all of them bad. I drove down to the UCLA game too. A guy I barely knew in the dorms overheard me discussing my plans to drive down Friday and he offered to let me stay with his family if I gave him ride down and back. Sounded great, so I took him up on it. The guy turned out to be a leech. I didn't have much in common with him and I couldn't do anything the whole weekend without him being right at my side. I didn't get down to LA often, so I was hoping to explore and he cramped my style. As bad as the game turned out, it was even worse because I developed a splitting headache right before kickoff and was miserable the whole rest of the night. Then the next day, I was in such a hurry to get back to Berkeley and be free of my traveling companion that, like you, I got a speeding ticket on I-5. I'd been doing about 80 to 85 the whole way, so I figured I'd earned it. Fortunately, I was only written up for doing 75.

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..I have a mental image of you and your traveling companion on that trip.

MSaviolives said:

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This whole episode is very sad in so many ways. For the victim, Jabari, and their friends and families. The news that he had earlier sought treatment for anxiety issues takes me back to one of the very few beefs I have gotten into with another poster on this forum.

Recall that Jabari was a last minute scratch from the NCAA tournament game against Hawaii because of back spasms. That night, after the loss, a poster claimed that Jabari was "mentally weak," and such weakness caused him to either fake the back spasms, or to have the back spasms and/or to be unable to play through the spasms--he actually referred to the Ronnie Lott finger joint amputation episode as an example of someone who is mentally strong in the face of physical adversity. I defended Jabari and the string eventually reached the point of such craziness that the mods removed it.

Well, hmmm.....

---

I don't understand your point. Jabari is mentally weak, in that he appears to have a legitimate mental illness...

Calling someone "mentally weak" is a throwback to these horrible days:



NOT GOOD!

Chapman_is_Gone said:

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MSaviolives said:

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This whole episode is very sad in so many ways. For the victim, Jabari, and their friends and families. The news that he had earlier sought treatment for anxiety issues takes me back to one of the very few beefs I have gotten into with another poster on this forum.

Recall that Jabari was a last minute scratch from the NCAA tournament game against Hawaii because of back spasms. That night, after the loss, a poster claimed that Jabari was "mentally weak," and such weakness caused him to either fake the back spasms, or to have the back spasms and/or to be unable to play through the spasms--he actually referred to the Ronnie Lott finger joint amputation episode as an example of someone who is mentally strong in the face of physical adversity. I defended Jabari and the string eventually reached the point of such craziness that the mods removed it.

Well, hmmm.....

---

I don't understand your point. Jabari is mentally weak, in that he appears to have a legitimate mental illness...

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Are you a licensed psychiatrist, and have you examined Jabari Bird? If not, then lighten up. Let him and his girlfriend have their day in court. They are entitled to that.

Chapman_is_Gone said:

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MSaviolives said:

---

This whole episode is very sad in so many ways. For the victim, Jabari, and their friends and families. The news that he had earlier sought treatment for anxiety issues takes me back to one of the very few beefs I have gotten into with another poster on this forum.

Recall that Jabari was a last minute scratch from the NCAA tournament game against Hawaii because of back spasms. That night, after the loss, a poster claimed that Jabari was "mentally weak," and such weakness caused him to either fake the back spasms, or to have the back spasms and/or to be unable to play through the spasms--he actually referred to the Ronnie Lott finger joint amputation episode as an example of someone who is mentally strong in the face of physical adversity. I defended Jabari and the string eventually reached the point of such craziness that the mods removed it.

Well, hmmm.....

---

I don't understand your point. Jabari is mentally weak, in that he appears to have a legitimate mental illness...

---

Successfully dealing with mental illness (on a higher level of intensity than the rest of us have to deal with, because none of us is entirely free of it), and overcoming it is definitely doable, actually makes people mentally strong, and in fact stronger than the rest of us who haven't had to face ourselves and our weaknesses and demons..

Good post!

mikecohen said:

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Chapman_is_Gone said:

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MSaviolives said:

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This whole episode is very sad in so many ways. For the victim, Jabari, and their friends and families. The news that he had earlier sought treatment for anxiety issues takes me back to one of the very few beefs I have gotten into with another poster on this forum.

Recall that Jabari was a last minute scratch from the NCAA tournament game against Hawaii because of back spasms. That night, after the loss, a poster claimed that Jabari was "mentally weak," and such weakness caused him to either fake the back spasms, or to have the back spasms and/or to be unable to play through the spasms--he actually referred to the Ronnie Lott finger joint amputation episode as an example of someone who is mentally strong in the face of physical adversity. I defended Jabari and the string eventually reached the point of such craziness that the mods removed it.

Well, hmmm.....

---

I don't understand your point. Jabari is mentally weak, in that he appears to have a legitimate mental illness...

---

Successfully dealing with mental illness (on a higher level of intensity than the rest of us have to deal with, because none of us is entirely free of it), and overcoming it is definitely doable, actually makes people mentally strong, and in fact stronger than the rest of us who haven't had to face ourselves and our weaknesses and demons..

---

Just depends on how you want to spin it, right? I say mentally weak, you say mentally strong. I can see it both ways, but your way definitely involves more spin. I don't spin for people, simply because they can jump high and put a round ball through a metal circle.

I do agree, though, that it does take a certain mental fortitude to be able to choke a woman to the point of her nearly blacking out, to let her recover, and then to return to the well by doing it again, and again, and again...

Chapman_is_Gone said:

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mikecohen said:

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Chapman_is_Gone said:

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MSaviolives said:

---

This whole episode is very sad in so many ways. For the victim, Jabari, and their friends and families. The news that he had earlier sought treatment for anxiety issues takes me back to one of the very few beefs I have gotten into with another poster on this forum.

Recall that Jabari was a last minute scratch from the NCAA tournament game against Hawaii because of back spasms. That night, after the loss, a poster claimed that Jabari was "mentally weak," and such weakness caused him to either fake the back spasms, or to have the back spasms and/or to be unable to play through the spasms--he actually referred to the Ronnie Lott finger joint amputation episode as an example of someone who is mentally strong in the face of physical adversity. I defended Jabari and the string eventually reached the point of such craziness that the mods removed it.

Well, hmmm.....

---

I don't understand your point. Jabari is mentally weak, in that he appears to have a legitimate mental illness...

---

Successfully dealing with mental illness (on a higher level of intensity than the rest of us have to deal with, because none of us is entirely free of it), and overcoming it is definitely doable, actually makes people mentally strong, and in fact stronger than the rest of us who haven't had to face ourselves and our weaknesses and demons..

---

Just depends on how you want to spin it, right? I say mentally weak, you say mentally strong. I can see it both ways, but your way definitely involves more spin. I don't spin for people, simply because they can jump high and put a round ball through a metal circle.

I do agree, though, that it does take a certain mental fortitude to be able to choke a woman to the point of her nearly blacking out, to let her recover, and then to return to the well by doing it again, and again, and again...

---

No, but you will spin by embellishing and dramatizing the accuser's story, without having heard the story of the incident from the accused person, I guess because the accuser is a woman and must be believed, and you feel the need to help her case. Are you so mentally weak, you can't wait for Jabari Bird to tell his story? Guilty until proven innocent? It is thinking like this that resulted in our nation's sordid history of numerous vigilante lynchings with a rope in a rush to justice.

Bird has appeared in court, been charged with crimes, and has plead "not guilty" to those charges. Once the trial has taken place, we can learn his side of the story. If he is found guilty, you can hate him all you want. Until then, can't you reserve judgment in this case? Can't you give him the benefit of the doubt? Aren't you bigger than this, Chapman? I think you are.

SFCityBear said:

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Chapman_is_Gone said:

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mikecohen said:

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Chapman_is_Gone said:

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MSaviolives said:

---

This whole episode is very sad in so many ways. For the victim, Jabari, and their friends and families. The news that he had earlier sought treatment for anxiety issues takes me back to one of the very few beefs I have gotten into with another poster on this forum.

Recall that Jabari was a last minute scratch from the NCAA tournament game against Hawaii because of back spasms. That night, after the loss, a poster claimed that Jabari was "mentally weak," and such weakness caused him to either fake the back spasms, or to have the back spasms and/or to be unable to play through the spasms--he actually referred to the Ronnie Lott finger joint amputation episode as an example of someone who is mentally strong in the face of physical adversity. I defended Jabari and the string eventually reached the point of such craziness that the mods removed it.

Well, hmmm.....

---

I don't understand your point. Jabari is mentally weak, in that he appears to have a legitimate mental illness...

---

Successfully dealing with mental illness (on a higher level of intensity than the rest of us have to deal with, because none of us is entirely free of it), and overcoming it is definitely doable, actually makes people mentally strong, and in fact stronger than the rest of us who haven't had to face ourselves and our weaknesses and demons..

---

Just depends on how you want to spin it, right? I say mentally weak, you say mentally strong. I can see it both ways, but your way definitely involves more spin. I don't spin for people, simply because they can jump high and put a round ball through a metal circle.

I do agree, though, that it does take a certain mental fortitude to be able to choke a woman to the point of her nearly blacking out, to let her recover, and then to return to the well by doing it again, and again, and again...

---

No, but you will spin by embellishing and dramatizing the accuser's story, without having heard the story of the incident from the accused person, I guess because the accuser is a woman and must be believed, and you feel the need to help her case. Are you so mentally weak, you can't wait for Jabari Bird to tell his story? Guilty until proven innocent? It is thinking like this that resulted in our nation's sordid history of numerous vigilante lynchings with a rope in a rush to justice.

Bird has appeared in court, been charged with crimes, and has plead "not guilty" to those charges. Once the trial has taken place, we can learn his side of the story. If he is found guilty, you can hate him all you want...

---

I will tell you my hunch after reading the articles. Unless Massachusetts accepts the "involuntarily intoxication by prescribed medication" defense and unless Jabari can prove said defense, his "side of the story" isn't worth jack guano and he will be serving a significant stretch. I don't care for the inference in your post that the victim has credibility issues. She could have made the whole thing up or grossly embellished the story but that situation is very long odds and you wouldn't bet on it. My guess is her neck bruises are all the corroboration she needs. Since I had previously formed a high opinion of Jabari's character, I truly hope it was an adverse reaction to psychotropic drugs that in effect rendered him temporarily insane.

http://jaapl.org/content/43/3/321

SFCityBear said:

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Just for the record, I firmly believe that Jabari Bird should NOT be lynched.

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Chapman_is_Gone said:

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mikecohen said:

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Chapman_is_Gone said:

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MSaviolives said:

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This whole episode is very sad in so many ways. For the victim, Jabari, and their friends and families. The news that he had earlier sought treatment for anxiety issues takes me back to one of the very few beefs I have gotten into with another poster on this forum.

Recall that Jabari was a last minute scratch from the NCAA tournament game against Hawaii because of back spasms. That night, after the loss, a poster claimed that Jabari was "mentally weak," and such weakness caused him to either fake the back spasms, or to have the back spasms and/or to be unable to play through the spasms--he actually referred to the Ronnie Lott finger joint amputation episode as an example of someone who is mentally strong in the face of physical adversity. I defended Jabari and the string eventually reached the point of such craziness that the mods removed it.

Well, hmmm.....

---

I don't understand your point. Jabari is mentally weak, in that he appears to have a legitimate mental illness...

---

Successfully dealing with mental illness (on a higher level of intensity than the rest of us have to deal with, because none of us is entirely free of it), and overcoming it is definitely doable, actually makes people mentally strong, and in fact stronger than the rest of us who haven't had to face ourselves and our weaknesses and demons..

---

Just depends on how you want to spin it, right? I say mentally weak, you say mentally strong. I can see it both ways, but your way definitely involves more spin. I don't spin for people, simply because they can jump high and put a round ball through a metal circle.

I do agree, though, that it does take a certain mental fortitude to be able to choke a woman to the point of her nearly blacking out, to let her recover, and then to return to the well by doing it again, and again, and again...

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I think you took me wrong. Let me see if I can better communicate what I was trying to express:

Firstly, I wanted to uncouple mental weakness from mental illness.

Then, I had nothing in mind about mental illness excusing the assault(s) - although I am certainly aware of the cases of extremely aberrant behavior triggered by psychotropic drugs prescribed for various mental/emotional conditions; and I do think that, if that was the case (especially the extraordinary amount of pressure a man in Jabari's particular position is in), that, in my mind at least, would definitely constitute an excuse, especially considering the apparently minor injuries the assault actually caused, and (IIRC) and the victim's lack of enthusiasm for criminal prosecution, or maybe just saying nice things about Jabari in general.

Really, what I was trying to say was about uncoupling mental weakness from mental illness, by pointing out that overcoming the latter can make one stronger, not only stronger than one previously was but also stronger than those of us who having had to face that level of intensity in our own mental problems (of which we have some).

Importantly: In making that point, I was not saying that Jabari HAD yet overcome those demons. Clearly, based on the (I think entirely credible) allegations, he has not (and I hope that should read "not yet"); but, from all previous information about him, I do believe that he could, and that doing so would be a great good for the world (as it is in whenever anyone is able to overcome that stuff, but perhaps more so when done by someone whose progress will become widely known because of his virtues in other areas - not just athletic prowess but in the way he has gone through the world, publicly, before crashing into the problem we are discussing)

Dear Mr. Cohen: Minor injuries?????

mr. Cohen; Here's a writing tip; try to limit your use of parentheses. You seem to have fondness for them. always have your reader in mind. Sometimes your parentheses are almost two or three sentences long, and, as a result, readers can be forgiven if they become confused trying to separate your declarative thoughts from your qualifiers. Yes--sometimes drugs are a causative factor when a "mentally ill" person commits an act of violence. many mentally ill people commit acts of violence without any drugs in their systems at all. In those cases where 'drugs" are thought to play a role in causation, there are many degrees of causation.

helltopay1 said:

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mr. Cohen; Here's a writing tip; try to limit your use of parentheses. You seem to have fondness for them. always have your reader in mind. Sometimes your parentheses are almost two or three sentences long, and, as a result, readers can be forgiven if they become confused trying to separate your declarative thoughts from your qualifiers.

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I just skip everything he writes. Anyone who was a big fan of shocky's wasn't someone whose opinion I needed anyway.

Yogi Bear said:

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helltopay1 said:

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mr. Cohen; Here's a writing tip; try to limit your use of parentheses. You seem to have fondness for them. always have your reader in mind. Sometimes your parentheses are almost two or three sentences long, and, as a result, readers can be forgiven if they become confused trying to separate your declarative thoughts from your qualifiers.

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I just skip everything he writes. Anyone who was a big fan of shocky's wasn't someone whose opinion I needed anyway.

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I think Mike is a pretty insightful guy that I learn from.

helltopay1 said:

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Dear Mr. Cohen: Minor injuries?????

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Questions:

Any broken bones?

Any injuries that won't heal?

Any injuries that prevented the victim from lifting Mr. Bird off the floor onto the bed when he was having seizures?

Any injuries that prevented the victim from leaving and going directly to the police?

I'm not trying to minimize the injuries. Really, for all I know, the answers to one or more of those questions could be yes.

I was just trying to add perspective. That is: Given the violent and repeated nature of the assault, one might assume some degree of really bad injuries; but I have not read anything to suggest that was the case.

Also, that disconnect (between the violence of the assault and the, thankfully, not so horrible injury) might suggest that, while obviously out of control, the emotion was infused with enough humanity to support a possible conclusion of lack of intent to cause harm (a difficult concession for the force of the emotion to make).

helltopay1 said:

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mr. Cohen; Here's a writing tip; try to limit your use of parentheses. You seem to have fondness for them. always have your reader in mind. Sometimes your parentheses are almost two or three sentences long, and, as a result, readers can be forgiven if they become confused trying to separate your declarative thoughts from your qualifiers. Yes--sometimes drugs are a causative factor when a "mentally ill" person commits an act of violence. many mentally ill people commit acts of violence without any drugs in their systems at all. In those cases where 'drugs" are thought to play a role in causation, there are many degrees of causation.

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No argument there. As many here have observed: There is much here that is unknown.

Chapman_is_Gone said:

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SFCityBear said:

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Just for the record, I firmly believe that Jabari Bird should NOT be lynched.

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The fact that you had to go to such lengths as to use my screen name while deleting any statement I made from the supposed quote, replacing it with some words of your own, making believe the quote came from me, no matter whether I agree with the quote or not, was devious. It only shows that you have no argument, just a personal attack on me. You have earned my contempt.

Mr. Cohen: Really. Mr. Chapman: SF City was not attacking you personally. In the immortal words of Dr. Freud: " Sometimes a cigar is only a cigar." translation: Stop reading things into things that aren't there.

mikecohen said:

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helltopay1 said:

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Dear Mr. Cohen: Minor injuries?????

---

Questions:

Any broken bones?

Any injuries that won't heal?

Any injuries that prevented the victim from lifting Mr. Bird off the floor onto the bed when he was having seizures?

Any injuries that prevented the victim from leaving and going directly to the police?

I'm not trying to minimize the injuries. Really, for all I know, the answers to one or more of those questions could be yes.

I was just trying to add perspective. That is: Given the violent and repeated nature of the assault, one might assume some degree of really bad injuries; but I have not read anything to suggest that was the case.

Also, that disconnect (between the violence of the assault and the, thankfully, not so horrible injury) might suggest that, while obviously out of control, the emotion was infused with enough humanity to support a possible conclusion of lack of intent to cause harm (a difficult concession for the force of the emotion to make).

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Maybe I'm unique in this regard, but if somebody kidnapped me and, over the course of a period of hours, tried to strangle me repeatedly, I wouldn't help them up onto a bed if they started having seizures. I would either get the heck out of there, or try and find something hard and heavy to bash their head in. Then, if they texted me later, saying they were going to commit suicide, I'd flash them that "thumbs up" emoji. Again, that's just me.

Dear Mr. Cohen: I'm reminded off thge late, great Rose Bird. She once argued from the bench that just because the assailant cut the throat of thge victim that doesn't necessarily mean that the assailant meant to cause " bodily harm." Rose had to bend over backwards to make this silly claim because "bodily harm" is a legal construct and the assailant would be facing a longer prison sentence if he were found guilty of it. My point, of course, is that if you are committed to a ideology, sometimes reason and common sense are rendered subservient to that belief system. Good old Rose is a perfect example of the late, great Ambrose Bierce who said, " The Law is whatever a Judge having jurisdiction says it is." How true----how true.

bearister said:

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SFCityBear said:

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Chapman_is_Gone said:

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mikecohen said:

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Chapman_is_Gone said:

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MSaviolives said:

---

This whole episode is very sad in so many ways. For the victim, Jabari, and their friends and families. The news that he had earlier sought treatment for anxiety issues takes me back to one of the very few beefs I have gotten into with another poster on this forum.

Recall that Jabari was a last minute scratch from the NCAA tournament game against Hawaii because of back spasms. That night, after the loss, a poster claimed that Jabari was "mentally weak," and such weakness caused him to either fake the back spasms, or to have the back spasms and/or to be unable to play through the spasms--he actually referred to the Ronnie Lott finger joint amputation episode as an example of someone who is mentally strong in the face of physical adversity. I defended Jabari and the string eventually reached the point of such craziness that the mods removed it.

Well, hmmm.....

---

I don't understand your point. Jabari is mentally weak, in that he appears to have a legitimate mental illness...

---

Successfully dealing with mental illness (on a higher level of intensity than the rest of us have to deal with, because none of us is entirely free of it), and overcoming it is definitely doable, actually makes people mentally strong, and in fact stronger than the rest of us who haven't had to face ourselves and our weaknesses and demons..

---

Just depends on how you want to spin it, right? I say mentally weak, you say mentally strong. I can see it both ways, but your way definitely involves more spin. I don't spin for people, simply because they can jump high and put a round ball through a metal circle.

I do agree, though, that it does take a certain mental fortitude to be able to choke a woman to the point of her nearly blacking out, to let her recover, and then to return to the well by doing it again, and again, and again...

---

No, but you will spin by embellishing and dramatizing the accuser's story, without having heard the story of the incident from the accused person, I guess because the accuser is a woman and must be believed, and you feel the need to help her case. Are you so mentally weak, you can't wait for Jabari Bird to tell his story? Guilty until proven innocent? It is thinking like this that resulted in our nation's sordid history of numerous vigilante lynchings with a rope in a rush to justice.

Bird has appeared in court, been charged with crimes, and has plead "not guilty" to those charges. Once the trial has taken place, we can learn his side of the story. If he is found guilty, you can hate him all you want...

---

I will tell you my hunch after reading the articles. Unless Massachusetts accepts the "involuntarily intoxication by prescribed medication" defense and unless Jabari can prove said defense, his "side of the story" isn't worth jack guano and he will be serving a significant stretch. I don't care for the inference in your post that the victim has credibility issues. She could have made the whole thing up or grossly embellished the story but that situation is very long odds and you wouldn't bet on it. My guess is her neck bruises are all the corroboration she needs. Since I had previously formed a high opinion of Jabari's character, I truly hope it was an adverse reaction to psychotropic drugs that in effect rendered him temporarily insane.

http://jaapl.org/content/43/3/321

---

My posts here are to ask that we not rush to judgment and try this case in public, on line, in a blog about Cal sports. With all due respect to you, if you chose to infer that the young lady has credibility issues from what I wrote, I assure you it was not intentional. I do not believe or disbelieve either side here, and I wish to hear more from the trial and the verdict. I am not smart enough to guess about any of this, and I wasn't in the room when the incident happened.

I will say that many women lie, and many men lie, especially when it comes to domestic abuse. In this case, we have two opposing statements from the participants, one with some detail, and the other a denial with no detail. One of them is not telling the truth, maybe both. People have been known to inflict injuries on themselves and accuse their spouse of abuse. It has happened. I had a case related to that in my own family, a relative who showed me some bad bruises on her face, and told me that her son beats her. I confronted him, and he denied it. The next day she showed me much more severe bruises, saying he had beaten her again, because I had confronted him with it. Mother and son separated for good, as the son moved 3000 miles away, and we never found out whether mother or son was telling the truth, and the case was never reported to authorities. Any bruises in Bird's case need to be examined by a physician experienced in forensic evidence, including any of Bird's DNA residue. Bird's hands and fingers need to be examined to find any trace of her DNA on them. Hopefully it has been done, or it is not too late to do it.

Assault cases brought by women against men are all big news now, as women clamor for justice, clamor to be believed in the absence of evidence or an eye witness, and it has become intensely political. It makes news, sells newspapers and gets internet hits. We cannot allow society to reach a hysteria reminiscent of the French Revolution, where all anyone had to say was the famous words, "J'accuse," and the accused had his head chopped off with a guillotine. Many in our society are trying to push us to always believing the woman and never the man so we can settle these tricky cases where there is no witness or evidence. What will happen in the more rare cases where a woman is accused of assaulting a man? Will we continue then to believe only the woman or continue to believe only the accuser? Our legal system is not perfect, but it is the best we have got at the moment.

As to embellishing her story, I didn't say she had done that, nor did I intend that you infer it. Chapman did the embellishing. I just don't want to engage in speculation. There is too much I don't know to make up my mind in this case.

In any event, SFCB, you are still my basketball analyst guru.

SFCityBear said:

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bearister said:

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SFCityBear said:

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Chapman_is_Gone said:

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mikecohen said:

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Chapman_is_Gone said:

---

MSaviolives said:

---

This whole episode is very sad in so many ways. For the victim, Jabari, and their friends and families. The news that he had earlier sought treatment for anxiety issues takes me back to one of the very few beefs I have gotten into with another poster on this forum.

Recall that Jabari was a last minute scratch from the NCAA tournament game against Hawaii because of back spasms. That night, after the loss, a poster claimed that Jabari was "mentally weak," and such weakness caused him to either fake the back spasms, or to have the back spasms and/or to be unable to play through the spasms--he actually referred to the Ronnie Lott finger joint amputation episode as an example of someone who is mentally strong in the face of physical adversity. I defended Jabari and the string eventually reached the point of such craziness that the mods removed it.

Well, hmmm.....

---

I don't understand your point. Jabari is mentally weak, in that he appears to have a legitimate mental illness...

---

Successfully dealing with mental illness (on a higher level of intensity than the rest of us have to deal with, because none of us is entirely free of it), and overcoming it is definitely doable, actually makes people mentally strong, and in fact stronger than the rest of us who haven't had to face ourselves and our weaknesses and demons..

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Just depends on how you want to spin it, right? I say mentally weak, you say mentally strong. I can see it both ways, but your way definitely involves more spin. I don't spin for people, simply because they can jump high and put a round ball through a metal circle.

I do agree, though, that it does take a certain mental fortitude to be able to choke a woman to the point of her nearly blacking out, to let her recover, and then to return to the well by doing it again, and again, and again...

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No, but you will spin by embellishing and dramatizing the accuser's story, without having heard the story of the incident from the accused person, I guess because the accuser is a woman and must be believed, and you feel the need to help her case. Are you so mentally weak, you can't wait for Jabari Bird to tell his story? Guilty until proven innocent? It is thinking like this that resulted in our nation's sordid history of numerous vigilante lynchings with a rope in a rush to justice.

Bird has appeared in court, been charged with crimes, and has plead "not guilty" to those charges. Once the trial has taken place, we can learn his side of the story. If he is found guilty, you can hate him all you want...

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I will tell you my hunch after reading the articles. Unless Massachusetts accepts the "involuntarily intoxication by prescribed medication" defense and unless Jabari can prove said defense, his "side of the story" isn't worth jack guano and he will be serving a significant stretch. I don't care for the inference in your post that the victim has credibility issues. She could have made the whole thing up or grossly embellished the story but that situation is very long odds and you wouldn't bet on it. My guess is her neck bruises are all the corroboration she needs. Since I had previously formed a high opinion of Jabari's character, I truly hope it was an adverse reaction to psychotropic drugs that in effect rendered him temporarily insane.

http://jaapl.org/content/43/3/321

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My posts here are to ask that we not rush to judgment and try this case in public, on line, in a blog about Cal sports. With all due respect to you, if you chose to infer that the young lady has credibility issues from what I wrote, I assure you it was not intentional. I do not believe or disbelieve either side here, and I wish to hear more from the trial and the verdict. I am not smart enough to guess about any of this, and I wasn't in the room when the incident happened.

I will say that many women lie, and many men lie, especially when it comes to domestic abuse. In this case, we have two opposing statements from the participants, one with some detail, and the other a denial with no detail. One of them is not telling the truth, maybe both. People have been known to inflict injuries on themselves and accuse their spouse of abuse. It has happened. I had a case related to that in my own family, a relative who showed me some bad bruises on her face, and told me that her son beats her. I confronted him, and he denied it. The next day she showed me much more severe bruises, saying he had beaten her again, because I had confronted him with it. Mother and son separated for good, as the son moved 3000 miles away, and we never found out whether mother or son was telling the truth, and the case was never reported to authorities. Any bruises in Bird's case need to be examined by a physician experienced in forensic evidence, including any of Bird's DNA residue. Bird's hands and fingers need to be examined to find any trace of her DNA on them. Hopefully it has been done, or it is not too late to do it.

Assault cases brought by women against men are all big news now, as women clamor for justice, clamor to be believed in the absence of evidence or an eye witness, and it has become intensely political. It makes news, sells newspapers and gets internet hits. We cannot allow society to reach a hysteria reminiscent of the French Revolution, where all anyone had to say was the famous words, "J'accuse," and the accused had his head chopped off with a guillotine. Many in our society are trying to push us to always believing the woman and never the man so we can settle these tricky cases where there is no witness or evidence. What will happen in the more rare cases where a woman is accused of assaulting a man? Will we continue then to believe only the woman or continue to believe only the accuser? Our legal system is not perfect, but it is the best we have got at the moment.

As to embellishing her story, I didn't say she had done that, nor did I intend that you infer it. Chapman did the embellishing. I just don't want to engage in speculation. There is too much I don't know to make up my mind in this case.

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One of the main reasons I believe the assault actually occurred, pretty much as reported, is that Jabari has not really denied that.

As I understand his statement, it is that the public does not yet know the full story, which, along with the other reporting to the effect that (a) he had previously sought treatment for anxiety [which I believe may have involved anti-anxiety medication(s)], (b) after the victim had left, he had communicated suicidal ideology, (c) "trust" issues were involved, (d) seizures occurred, and (e) she helped him off the floor onto the couch, all suggest to me that the strong emotions which surround the complications tied up in sexual relationships, with the admixture of a particular drug reaction, may have created a psychological state in which assigning blame becomes a much more complicated proposition.

But nothing in that whole nexus suggests that the description of the physical events did not occur as reported - keeping in mind also the likelihood that Jabari is likely to have been strong enough to do a LOT more damage than has been suggested, which, to me does not suggest that nothing happened, but rather, again, that the emotions involved made the meaning of the physical events other than the unmitigated, total attack that the physical events may imply.

SFCityBear said:

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Chapman_is_Gone said:

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SFCityBear said:

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Just for the record, I firmly believe that Jabari Bird should NOT be lynched.

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The fact that you had to go to such lengths as to use my screen name while deleting any statement I made from the supposed quote, replacing it with some words of your own, making believe the quote came from me, no matter whether I agree with the quote or not, was devious. It only shows that you have no argument, just a personal attack on me. You have earned my contempt.

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Actually, what you see is a result of this message board having really poor tools in terms of quoting/editing/etc. The first pass at my post got messed up and the result made it appear that what I wrote was part of your quote...my attempt to fix the issue resulted in what is shown, with the original quote and my typing all appearing in the same greyed-out box. Life is too short to try to fix it a second time. All your other conspiracy BS is comical, though, like I have time or interest in my life to try to frame you. I'd ask for an apology if I actually cared what you think of me. Everyone can see you were the one who brought up the topic of lynching...let me give you a tip, old man: not a good idea when discussing a black man.

And I did no embellishing or dramatizing... everything I wrote came from press accounts.

helltopay1 said:

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Mr. Cohen: Really. Mr. Chapman: SF City was not attacking you personally. In the immortal words of Dr. Freud: " Sometimes a cigar is only a cigar." translation: Stop reading things into things that aren't there.

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He actually attacked me in two or three different ways. But I'm over it.

Come to think of it, I do care. Please apologize SFCityBear. Either on this board or a handwritten card.

Dear Mr. Cohen; If you are deliberately trying to confuse people I would give you an A Plus if you were one of my students. Somehow, however, I don't believe confusion is your intent. I wouldn't call it jargon either. I'm still working on how best to describe your posts. It just occurred to me that maybe your intent is to make people laugh. but that probably isn't true. As any waitress and/or waiter is fond of asking, " are you still working on that?" Yes--I'm still working on trying to decipher your posts. This may not be an easy task. After all these years, detectives still cannot decode the ciphers of the famous Zodiac. You don't suppose----no--scratch that. Too far-fetched.

Dear Mr. Hell,

You are a sensational humorist. I'm reminded of Groucho's Dick Cavett show appearances. You don't think . . . nah, too far-fetched.

KenBurnski said:

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Dear Mr. Hell,

You are a sensational humorist. I'm reminded of Groucho's Dick Cavett show appearances. You don't think . . . nah, too far-fetched.

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Bazinga!!

Dear Mr. burnski: I think your post was meant as a compliment. If so, I am grateful. It almost makes up for the daily shenanigans in Wash DC which are making me physically ill. Good thing I already drink. Otherwise, the daily news would surely cause me to stock up on liquor for thge next 50 years.

helltopay1 said:

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Mr. Cohen: Really. Mr. Chapman: SF City was not attacking you personally. In the immortal words of Dr. Freud: " Sometimes a cigar is only a cigar." translation: Stop reading things into things that aren't there.

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Unless you are Bill Clinton, in the Oval Office.