Martins departure has much more to do with Williams and Dierks and the dysfunction around them, then it has to do with Marting (IMHO). Did he leave the program in great shape - NO. But I see that as evidence that his decision to move on was not a long process that started when he arrived. There are also another $7 million reasons that I don't begrudge Martins departure.

Like HD, I enjoyed the program when he was coaching - I just wish his staff had focused a little more on efficient offense and recruiting to Cal's brand.

Finally, I admittedly suffer from the human condition that tends to focus more fondly as time marches on. (It makes me smile more that way).

BeachedBear said:

---

Martins departure has much more to do with Williams and Dierks and the dysfunction around them, then it has to do with Marting (IMHO). Did he leave the program in great shape - NO. But I see that as evidence that his decision to move on was not a long process that started when he arrived. There are also another $7 million reasons that I don't begrudge Martins departure.

Like HD, I enjoyed the program when he was coaching - I just wish his staff had focused a little more on efficient offense and recruiting to Cal's brand.

Finally, I admittedly suffer from the human condition that tends to focus more fondly as time marches on. (It makes me smile more that way).

---

You can't ignore the money thrown at him by Missouri. Nobody at Cal, the admin, boosters or fans here, wanted to come close to matching it.

I thought he actually recruited to our brand very well. I also think everyone agrees about his offense. Jaylen Brown as a player and person, at Cal and in the NBA, is a great example of both points.

Think the factors were: 1) we chose him over Monty's recommended successor, a guy who would have likely been loyal and coached at Cal a long time, 2) he wasn't Monty and a lot of people really loved Monty 3) left us before he got anything really rolling 4) his successor was a coach he hired and the guy bombed 5) we had to blame someone and the guy who is gone is the easiest scapegoat.

Personally, I thought Williams' biggest mistake, the one a financial guy like him should never make, was giving Jones a guaranteed contract. Taking a chance on a lower assistant is not horrible, but realize you have the leverage and have a contract very favorable to Cal either way.

calumnus said:

---

BeachedBear said:

---

Martins departure has much more to do with Williams and Dierks and the dysfunction around them, then it has to do with Marting (IMHO). Did he leave the program in great shape - NO. But I see that as evidence that his decision to move on was not a long process that started when he arrived. There are also another $7 million reasons that I don't begrudge Martins departure.

Like HD, I enjoyed the program when he was coaching - I just wish his staff had focused a little more on efficient offense and recruiting to Cal's brand.

Finally, I admittedly suffer from the human condition that tends to focus more fondly as time marches on. (It makes me smile more that way).

---

You can't ignore the money thrown at him by Missouri. Nobody at Cal, the admin, boosters or fans here, wanted to come close to matching it.

I thought he actually recruited to our brand very well. I also think everyone agrees about his offense. Jaylen Brown as a player and person, at Cal and in the NBA, is a great example of both points.

Think the factors were: 1) we chose him over Monty's recommended successor, a guy who would have likely been loyal and coached at Cal a long time, 2) he wasn't Monty and a lot of people really loved Monty 3) left us before he got anything really rolling 4) his successor was a coach he hired and the guy bombed 5) we had to blame someone and the guy who is gone is the easiest scapegoat.

Personally, I thought Williams' biggest mistake, the one a financial guy like him should never make, was giving Jones a guaranteed contract. Taking a chance on a lower assistant is not horrible, but realize you have the leverage and have a contract very favorable to Cal either way.

---

Agree with your factors Calumnus, but want to break them down a bit, since there's nothing else to do....

1) While I agree that many feel this way, I personally have not seen the evidence that TD was a slam dunk hire. But that's just me.
2). This one nails it. Cuonzo was almost the anti-Monty in many ways.
3). Yep
4). Yep Yep
5). Unfortunately, this one is very true, but not very effective at correcting past mistakes.

I liked Martin and thought he was a great leader of men. But man, his offenses were tough to watch and his recruiting was trending really poorly at the end. I didn't like the way he left, but I wasn't sad to see him go. Unfortunately, we had no idea that Mike Williams would screw up so badly by hiring Wyking.

He left the cupboard empty. That was the worst part. The second worst part was his staff which translated to an offense that completely under utilized the talent we had for a very short while. Missed opportunities and misfires all around.

calumnus said:

---

BeachedBear said:

---

Martins departure has much more to do with Williams and Dierks and the dysfunction around them, then it has to do with Marting (IMHO). Did he leave the program in great shape - NO. But I see that as evidence that his decision to move on was not a long process that started when he arrived. There are also another $7 million reasons that I don't begrudge Martins departure.

Like HD, I enjoyed the program when he was coaching - I just wish his staff had focused a little more on efficient offense and recruiting to Cal's brand.

Finally, I admittedly suffer from the human condition that tends to focus more fondly as time marches on. (It makes me smile more that way).

---

You can't ignore the money thrown at him by Missouri. Nobody at Cal, the admin, boosters or fans here, wanted to come close to matching it.

I thought he actually recruited to our brand very well. I also think everyone agrees about his offense. Jaylen Brown as a player and person, at Cal and in the NBA, is a great example of both points.

Think the factors were: 1) we chose him over Monty's recommended successor, a guy who would have likely been loyal and coached at Cal a long time, 2) he wasn't Monty and a lot of people really loved Monty 3) left us before he got anything really rolling 4) his successor was a coach he hired and the guy bombed 5) we had to blame someone and the guy who is gone is the easiest scapegoat.

Personally, I thought Williams' biggest mistake, the one a financial guy like him should never make, was giving Jones a guaranteed contract. Taking a chance on a lower assistant is not horrible, but realize you have the leverage and have a contract very favorable to Cal either way.

---

Calumnus, I agree with much of what you wrote (as usual) except two things:

No way we or anybody else would've hired Travis DeCuire (especially then before he was a HC) when they could get Cuonzo Martin. Martin turned out not to be the savior we had hoped, but virtually everybody was delighted when he first came aboard.

I disagree that he recruited well "to our brand", or otherwise. Rabb and Brown were great gets, to be sure. Ivan was the local high school all-American and Jaylen was a recruiting coup and a guy we'll always be proud to say came to Cal, but it takes more than two guys over three years to be a successful recruiter. Martin needed to back those two up with a several additional 4-star-type guys who would fit in at Cal, but he did not succeed in that regard.

To be clear, unlike some, I have no problem with Cuonzo Martin, not even with the way he left. He could've used more support when he was here.

CALiforniALUM said:

---

He left the cupboard empty. That was the worst part. The second worst part was his staff which translated to an offense that completely under utilized the talent we had for a very short while. Missed opportunities and misfires all around.

---

Why was is Martin's staff being blamed for the performance of his offense?

Martin was never a long term guy for Cal. It always felt like he had 1 foot out the door.

Looking back, and perhaps it's unfair to say this, but Monty should have hung on for a couple of more seasons and left Cal on a higher note than an NIT bid, which would have given Travis DeCuire a better shot at the job. In some way, I feel like Dirks wanted to "swing for the fences" and land a bigger name than TD.

tsubamoto2001 said:

---

Martin was never a long term guy for Cal. It always felt like he had 1 foot out the door.

Looking back, and perhaps it's unfair to say this, but Monty should have hung on for a couple of more seasons and left Cal on a higher note than an NIT bid, which would have given Travis DeCuire a better shot at the job. In some way, I feel like Dirks wanted to "swing for the fences" and land a bigger name than TD.

---

Monty could have easily renegotiated his contract to finish it out with Travis as the defacto head coach and heir apparent with Monty as his mentor/advisor. No way Williams says no to that.

Big C said:

---

calumnus said:

---

BeachedBear said:

---

Martins departure has much more to do with Williams and Dierks and the dysfunction around them, then it has to do with Marting (IMHO). Did he leave the program in great shape - NO. But I see that as evidence that his decision to move on was not a long process that started when he arrived. There are also another $7 million reasons that I don't begrudge Martins departure.

Like HD, I enjoyed the program when he was coaching - I just wish his staff had focused a little more on efficient offense and recruiting to Cal's brand.

Finally, I admittedly suffer from the human condition that tends to focus more fondly as time marches on. (It makes me smile more that way).

---

You can't ignore the money thrown at him by Missouri. Nobody at Cal, the admin, boosters or fans here, wanted to come close to matching it.

I thought he actually recruited to our brand very well. I also think everyone agrees about his offense. Jaylen Brown as a player and person, at Cal and in the NBA, is a great example of both points.

Think the factors were: 1) we chose him over Monty's recommended successor, a guy who would have likely been loyal and coached at Cal a long time, 2) he wasn't Monty and a lot of people really loved Monty 3) left us before he got anything really rolling 4) his successor was a coach he hired and the guy bombed 5) we had to blame someone and the guy who is gone is the easiest scapegoat.

Personally, I thought Williams' biggest mistake, the one a financial guy like him should never make, was giving Jones a guaranteed contract. Taking a chance on a lower assistant is not horrible, but realize you have the leverage and have a contract very favorable to Cal either way.

---

Calumnus, I agree with much of what you wrote (as usual) except two things:

No way we or anybody else would've hired Travis DeCuire (especially then before he was a HC) when they could get Cuonzo Martin. Martin turned out not to be the savior we had hoped, but virtually everybody was delighted when he first came aboard.

I disagree that he recruited well "to our brand", or otherwise. Rabb and Brown were great gets, to be sure. Ivan was the local high school all-American and Jaylen was a recruiting coup and a guy we'll always be proud to say came to Cal, but it takes more than two guys over three years to be a successful recruiter. Martin needed to back those two up with a several additional 4-star-type guys who would fit in at Cal, but he did not succeed in that regard.

To be clear, unlike some, I have no problem with Cuonzo Martin, not even with the way he left. He could've used more support when he was here.

---

I was thrilled when we got Cuonzo. I was not speaking for myself, I was "assessing the room" and attempting to explain why I thought so many people were so extremely negative towards Cuonzo.

To Brown and Rabb you need to add Lee, who was always an ideal Cal student-athlete, just a great human being, and never really fit in at Kentucky.

I think if he had stayed Cuinzo would have continued to recruit at a high level and the article shows he was figuring out out brand (Jaylen helped), but we will won't know and it doesn't matter anyway.

calumnus said:

---

Big C said:

---

calumnus said:

---

BeachedBear said:

---

Martins departure has much more to do with Williams and Dierks and the dysfunction around them, then it has to do with Marting (IMHO). Did he leave the program in great shape - NO. But I see that as evidence that his decision to move on was not a long process that started when he arrived. There are also another $7 million reasons that I don't begrudge Martins departure.

Like HD, I enjoyed the program when he was coaching - I just wish his staff had focused a little more on efficient offense and recruiting to Cal's brand.

Finally, I admittedly suffer from the human condition that tends to focus more fondly as time marches on. (It makes me smile more that way).

---

You can't ignore the money thrown at him by Missouri. Nobody at Cal, the admin, boosters or fans here, wanted to come close to matching it.

I thought he actually recruited to our brand very well. I also think everyone agrees about his offense. Jaylen Brown as a player and person, at Cal and in the NBA, is a great example of both points.

Think the factors were: 1) we chose him over Monty's recommended successor, a guy who would have likely been loyal and coached at Cal a long time, 2) he wasn't Monty and a lot of people really loved Monty 3) left us before he got anything really rolling 4) his successor was a coach he hired and the guy bombed 5) we had to blame someone and the guy who is gone is the easiest scapegoat.

Personally, I thought Williams' biggest mistake, the one a financial guy like him should never make, was giving Jones a guaranteed contract. Taking a chance on a lower assistant is not horrible, but realize you have the leverage and have a contract very favorable to Cal either way.

---

Calumnus, I agree with much of what you wrote (as usual) except two things:

No way we or anybody else would've hired Travis DeCuire (especially then before he was a HC) when they could get Cuonzo Martin. Martin turned out not to be the savior we had hoped, but virtually everybody was delighted when he first came aboard.

I disagree that he recruited well "to our brand", or otherwise. Rabb and Brown were great gets, to be sure. Ivan was the local high school all-American and Jaylen was a recruiting coup and a guy we'll always be proud to say came to Cal, but it takes more than two guys over three years to be a successful recruiter. Martin needed to back those two up with a several additional 4-star-type guys who would fit in at Cal, but he did not succeed in that regard.

To be clear, unlike some, I have no problem with Cuonzo Martin, not even with the way he left. He could've used more support when he was here.

---

I was thrilled when we got Cuonzo. I was not speaking for myself, I was "assessing the room" and attempting to explain why I thought so many people were so extremely negative towards Cuonzo.

To Brown and Rabb you need to add Lee, who was always an ideal Cal student-athlete, just a great human being, and never really fit in at Kentucky.

I think if he had stayed Cuinzo would have continued to recruit at a high level and the article shows he was figuring out out brand (Jaylen helped), but we will won't know and it doesn't matter anyway.

---

If Martin was doing such a wonderful job recruiting at a high level the cupboard wouldn't have been bare by the time he left. He also spent a lot of time recruiting players that ultimately ended up not being able to get into Cal which shows he was pretty much tone-deaf to the brand.

CALiforniALUM said:

---

He left the cupboard empty. That was the worst part. The second worst part was his staff which translated to an offense that completely under utilized the talent we had for a very short while. Missed opportunities and misfires all around.

---

+1

calumnus said:

---

Big C said:

---

calumnus said:

---

BeachedBear said:

---

Martins departure has much more to do with Williams and Dierks and the dysfunction around them, then it has to do with Marting (IMHO). Did he leave the program in great shape - NO. But I see that as evidence that his decision to move on was not a long process that started when he arrived. There are also another $7 million reasons that I don't begrudge Martins departure.

Like HD, I enjoyed the program when he was coaching - I just wish his staff had focused a little more on efficient offense and recruiting to Cal's brand.

Finally, I admittedly suffer from the human condition that tends to focus more fondly as time marches on. (It makes me smile more that way).

---

You can't ignore the money thrown at him by Missouri. Nobody at Cal, the admin, boosters or fans here, wanted to come close to matching it.

I thought he actually recruited to our brand very well. I also think everyone agrees about his offense. Jaylen Brown as a player and person, at Cal and in the NBA, is a great example of both points.

Think the factors were: 1) we chose him over Monty's recommended successor, a guy who would have likely been loyal and coached at Cal a long time, 2) he wasn't Monty and a lot of people really loved Monty 3) left us before he got anything really rolling 4) his successor was a coach he hired and the guy bombed 5) we had to blame someone and the guy who is gone is the easiest scapegoat.

Personally, I thought Williams' biggest mistake, the one a financial guy like him should never make, was giving Jones a guaranteed contract. Taking a chance on a lower assistant is not horrible, but realize you have the leverage and have a contract very favorable to Cal either way.

---

Calumnus, I agree with much of what you wrote (as usual) except two things:

No way we or anybody else would've hired Travis DeCuire (especially then before he was a HC) when they could get Cuonzo Martin. Martin turned out not to be the savior we had hoped, but virtually everybody was delighted when he first came aboard.

I disagree that he recruited well "to our brand", or otherwise. Rabb and Brown were great gets, to be sure. Ivan was the local high school all-American and Jaylen was a recruiting coup and a guy we'll always be proud to say came to Cal, but it takes more than two guys over three years to be a successful recruiter. Martin needed to back those two up with a several additional 4-star-type guys who would fit in at Cal, but he did not succeed in that regard.

To be clear, unlike some, I have no problem with Cuonzo Martin, not even with the way he left. He could've used more support when he was here.

---

I was thrilled when we got Cuonzo. I was not speaking for myself, I was "assessing the room" and attempting to explain why I thought so many people were so extremely negative towards Cuonzo.

To Brown and Rabb you need to add Lee, who was always an ideal Cal student-athlete, just a great human being, and never really fit in at Kentucky.

I think if he had stayed Cuinzo would have continued to recruit at a high level and the article shows he was figuring out out brand (Jaylen helped), but we will won't know and it doesn't matter anyway.

---

I know that there are a good number of Cuonzo Martin supporters on the board, so I don't want to offend, but what was it about Cuonzo Martin's recruiting that you and others might consider it to have been a high level? Was it just the signing of Rabb, Brown and Lee, all very highly rated recruits, who played a total of 4 seasons between them for Cal, and only one team had the distinction of having two of them on the same team in the same season? If Martin's plan was to recruit one-and-dones in the hopes of attracting more of them, it was not successful, as he signed no more of them in his final two recruiting classes, and Baker the highest rated later recruit, de-committed when Martin left.

I also know that nearly everyone here agrees that Montgomery was not a good recruiter during his time at Cal. How does Martin's overall recruiting compare to Montgmery's, understanding that Montgomery had 6 seasons at Cal to Martin's 3 seasons?

Here is how I'd rank the recruits for each coach:

Good players, who had 3 or 4 good years for Cal:

Montgomery: Gutierrez, Crabbe, Cobbs, Wallace, Kravish, Bird, Mathews
Martin: None

Good players, who played 1 or 2 good years for Cal:

Montgomery: Sanders-Frison, Rooks
Martin: Rabb, Brown, Lee, Sueing, Anticevich, Mullins, Moore

Players who were fair, average, or adequate

Montgomery: Thurman, Powers, Kreklow, Moute a Bidias
Martin: Okoroh, Tarwater, Baker (at Kentucky and Arizona)

Players who were misses:

Montgomery: Seeley, Smith, Bak Bak, Behrens
Martin: Harris-Dyson

Players who were Bad Misses:

Montgomery: Franklin, Murray, Rossi, Johnson, Rodriquez
Martin: Chauca, Domingo, Coleman, Davis

I would note that Montgomery's recruits suffered more from injuries than did Martin's. MSF, Behrens, Kreklow, and Bird seemed to often be hampered by injuries, and Rossi was never able to play much at all. Wallace suffered a key injury before the NCAA. For Martin, his injured recruits were only JHD and Baker.

Martin's recruiting may look "high level" based on the signing of highly ranked Rabb, Brown, and Lee, but when I look at the rest, it was not that much better than Montgomery's was it?

Civil Bear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Big C said:

---

calumnus said:

---

BeachedBear said:

---

Martins departure has much more to do with Williams and Dierks and the dysfunction around them, then it has to do with Marting (IMHO). Did he leave the program in great shape - NO. But I see that as evidence that his decision to move on was not a long process that started when he arrived. There are also another $7 million reasons that I don't begrudge Martins departure.

Like HD, I enjoyed the program when he was coaching - I just wish his staff had focused a little more on efficient offense and recruiting to Cal's brand.

Finally, I admittedly suffer from the human condition that tends to focus more fondly as time marches on. (It makes me smile more that way).

---

You can't ignore the money thrown at him by Missouri. Nobody at Cal, the admin, boosters or fans here, wanted to come close to matching it.

I thought he actually recruited to our brand very well. I also think everyone agrees about his offense. Jaylen Brown as a player and person, at Cal and in the NBA, is a great example of both points.

Think the factors were: 1) we chose him over Monty's recommended successor, a guy who would have likely been loyal and coached at Cal a long time, 2) he wasn't Monty and a lot of people really loved Monty 3) left us before he got anything really rolling 4) his successor was a coach he hired and the guy bombed 5) we had to blame someone and the guy who is gone is the easiest scapegoat.

Personally, I thought Williams' biggest mistake, the one a financial guy like him should never make, was giving Jones a guaranteed contract. Taking a chance on a lower assistant is not horrible, but realize you have the leverage and have a contract very favorable to Cal either way.

---

Calumnus, I agree with much of what you wrote (as usual) except two things:

No way we or anybody else would've hired Travis DeCuire (especially then before he was a HC) when they could get Cuonzo Martin. Martin turned out not to be the savior we had hoped, but virtually everybody was delighted when he first came aboard.

I disagree that he recruited well "to our brand", or otherwise. Rabb and Brown were great gets, to be sure. Ivan was the local high school all-American and Jaylen was a recruiting coup and a guy we'll always be proud to say came to Cal, but it takes more than two guys over three years to be a successful recruiter. Martin needed to back those two up with a several additional 4-star-type guys who would fit in at Cal, but he did not succeed in that regard.

To be clear, unlike some, I have no problem with Cuonzo Martin, not even with the way he left. He could've used more support when he was here.

---

I was thrilled when we got Cuonzo. I was not speaking for myself, I was "assessing the room" and attempting to explain why I thought so many people were so extremely negative towards Cuonzo.

To Brown and Rabb you need to add Lee, who was always an ideal Cal student-athlete, just a great human being, and never really fit in at Kentucky.

I think if he had stayed Cuinzo would have continued to recruit at a high level and the article shows he was figuring out out brand (Jaylen helped), but we will won't know and it doesn't matter anyway.

---

If Martin was doing such a wonderful job recruiting at a high level the cupboard wouldn't have been bare by the time he left. He also spent a lot of time recruiting players that ultimately ended up not being able to get into Cal which shows he was pretty much tone-deaf to the brand.

---

Where coaches get in trouble is when a lot of the players they inherit in their first season all are set to graduate at the same time, and the coach has to scurry to try and recruit a lot of players at once. That happened to Braun when he was hired to replace Bozeman. I think he had 5 seniors plus Gonzalez, a junior who would leave for football. After his Sweet 16 in his first season, It took Braun several years before he made it back to the NCAA tournament. It happened again to Montgomery when he inherited 4 juniors from Braun, and they all graduated at once two years later. He then recruited Crabbe, Franklin, Murray and Rossi, which on paper looked good, but Murray was rehabbing, Rossi got injured, and Franklin already was injured, and was a head case to boot.

Martin failed to get and hold any good 3- or 4-year type players. I don't know what he concentrated on, but he landed 2 one and dones plus the one-year player, Lee, and if you are going to focus on that, you need to bring in a fairly steady stream of similar talent every year, because they are all leaving early. Even the Dukes and Kentuckys, UCLAs, and Arizonas who do bring them in fairly steadily, don't have successful teams every year.

Civil Bear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Big C said:

---

calumnus said:

---

BeachedBear said:

---

Martins departure has much more to do with Williams and Dierks and the dysfunction around them, then it has to do with Marting (IMHO). Did he leave the program in great shape - NO. But I see that as evidence that his decision to move on was not a long process that started when he arrived. There are also another $7 million reasons that I don't begrudge Martins departure.

Like HD, I enjoyed the program when he was coaching - I just wish his staff had focused a little more on efficient offense and recruiting to Cal's brand.

Finally, I admittedly suffer from the human condition that tends to focus more fondly as time marches on. (It makes me smile more that way).

---

You can't ignore the money thrown at him by Missouri. Nobody at Cal, the admin, boosters or fans here, wanted to come close to matching it.

I thought he actually recruited to our brand very well. I also think everyone agrees about his offense. Jaylen Brown as a player and person, at Cal and in the NBA, is a great example of both points.

Think the factors were: 1) we chose him over Monty's recommended successor, a guy who would have likely been loyal and coached at Cal a long time, 2) he wasn't Monty and a lot of people really loved Monty 3) left us before he got anything really rolling 4) his successor was a coach he hired and the guy bombed 5) we had to blame someone and the guy who is gone is the easiest scapegoat.

Personally, I thought Williams' biggest mistake, the one a financial guy like him should never make, was giving Jones a guaranteed contract. Taking a chance on a lower assistant is not horrible, but realize you have the leverage and have a contract very favorable to Cal either way.

---

Calumnus, I agree with much of what you wrote (as usual) except two things:

No way we or anybody else would've hired Travis DeCuire (especially then before he was a HC) when they could get Cuonzo Martin. Martin turned out not to be the savior we had hoped, but virtually everybody was delighted when he first came aboard.

I disagree that he recruited well "to our brand", or otherwise. Rabb and Brown were great gets, to be sure. Ivan was the local high school all-American and Jaylen was a recruiting coup and a guy we'll always be proud to say came to Cal, but it takes more than two guys over three years to be a successful recruiter. Martin needed to back those two up with a several additional 4-star-type guys who would fit in at Cal, but he did not succeed in that regard.

To be clear, unlike some, I have no problem with Cuonzo Martin, not even with the way he left. He could've used more support when he was here.

---

I was thrilled when we got Cuonzo. I was not speaking for myself, I was "assessing the room" and attempting to explain why I thought so many people were so extremely negative towards Cuonzo.

To Brown and Rabb you need to add Lee, who was always an ideal Cal student-athlete, just a great human being, and never really fit in at Kentucky.

I think if he had stayed Cuinzo would have continued to recruit at a high level and the article shows he was figuring out out brand (Jaylen helped), but we will won't know and it doesn't matter anyway.

---

If Martin was doing such a wonderful job recruiting at a high level the cupboard wouldn't have been bare by the time he left. He also spent a lot of time recruiting players that ultimately ended up not being able to get into Cal which shows he was pretty much tone-deaf to the brand.

---

When you recruit at a high level players will leave for the NBA and the roster needs constant replenishment. This is exacerbated with the new transfer rules. His top end guys left around the same time Monty's big class of 4-5 year players graduated. Who did not get through admissions? Some guys did not come when he left. He more or less left us Lee, Kingsley, Coleman and Sueing plus pretty much Bradley, Kelly, Austin, Vanover in the pipeline... right (?) all good students who fit the Cal brand well. The main issue was their youth plus Wyking's inexperience, being promoted from fourth assistant to head coach. Then Wyking's poor recruiting the next class resulting in guys getting run off. Imagine if we had landed a top class instead?

With the new college basketball transfer rules and early entry rosters change very quickly, especially when you have coaching changes and we have had 4 coaches over the last 6-7 years? You can't expect that coaches will leave and ever "leave a full cupboard" it just doesn't work like that anymore. Even a "full cupboard" will depart when there is a coaching change. The issue is Cuonzo leaving (which was almost entirely due to the money and couldn't be helped) and our swing and a miss on his replacement, which could have been. More recently it was the late firing of Wyking and the hiring of a guy who had been out of coaching (and thus recruiting) for a year. Wyking and Fox were both late arrivals in the recruiting cycle and our recruiting has suffered, as has our record, which in turn impacts our recruiting....
If I were to list reasons we found ourselves in the hole we did, the quality of Cuonzo's recruiting would be very low on the list, if at all.

However, that new dynamism in roster turnover also means new coaches can transform rosters quickly too. The challenge for Fox is building momentum to climb out of the hole we pretty much dug for ourselves.

calumnus said:

---

Civil Bear said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Big C said:

---

calumnus said:

---

BeachedBear said:

---

Martins departure has much more to do with Williams and Dierks and the dysfunction around them, then it has to do with Marting (IMHO). Did he leave the program in great shape - NO. But I see that as evidence that his decision to move on was not a long process that started when he arrived. There are also another $7 million reasons that I don't begrudge Martins departure.

Like HD, I enjoyed the program when he was coaching - I just wish his staff had focused a little more on efficient offense and recruiting to Cal's brand.

Finally, I admittedly suffer from the human condition that tends to focus more fondly as time marches on. (It makes me smile more that way).

---

You can't ignore the money thrown at him by Missouri. Nobody at Cal, the admin, boosters or fans here, wanted to come close to matching it.

I thought he actually recruited to our brand very well. I also think everyone agrees about his offense. Jaylen Brown as a player and person, at Cal and in the NBA, is a great example of both points.

Think the factors were: 1) we chose him over Monty's recommended successor, a guy who would have likely been loyal and coached at Cal a long time, 2) he wasn't Monty and a lot of people really loved Monty 3) left us before he got anything really rolling 4) his successor was a coach he hired and the guy bombed 5) we had to blame someone and the guy who is gone is the easiest scapegoat.

Personally, I thought Williams' biggest mistake, the one a financial guy like him should never make, was giving Jones a guaranteed contract. Taking a chance on a lower assistant is not horrible, but realize you have the leverage and have a contract very favorable to Cal either way.

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Calumnus, I agree with much of what you wrote (as usual) except two things:

No way we or anybody else would've hired Travis DeCuire (especially then before he was a HC) when they could get Cuonzo Martin. Martin turned out not to be the savior we had hoped, but virtually everybody was delighted when he first came aboard.

I disagree that he recruited well "to our brand", or otherwise. Rabb and Brown were great gets, to be sure. Ivan was the local high school all-American and Jaylen was a recruiting coup and a guy we'll always be proud to say came to Cal, but it takes more than two guys over three years to be a successful recruiter. Martin needed to back those two up with a several additional 4-star-type guys who would fit in at Cal, but he did not succeed in that regard.

To be clear, unlike some, I have no problem with Cuonzo Martin, not even with the way he left. He could've used more support when he was here.

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I was thrilled when we got Cuonzo. I was not speaking for myself, I was "assessing the room" and attempting to explain why I thought so many people were so extremely negative towards Cuonzo.

To Brown and Rabb you need to add Lee, who was always an ideal Cal student-athlete, just a great human being, and never really fit in at Kentucky.

I think if he had stayed Cuinzo would have continued to recruit at a high level and the article shows he was figuring out out brand (Jaylen helped), but we will won't know and it doesn't matter anyway.

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If Martin was doing such a wonderful job recruiting at a high level the cupboard wouldn't have been bare by the time he left. He also spent a lot of time recruiting players that ultimately ended up not being able to get into Cal which shows he was pretty much tone-deaf to the brand.

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When you recruit at a high level players will leave for the NBA and the roster needs constant replenishment. This is exacerbated with the new transfer rules. His top end guys left around the same time Monty's big class of 4-5 year players graduated. Who did not get through admissions? Some guys did not come when he left. He more or less left us Lee, Kingsley, Coleman and Sueing plus pretty much Bradley, Kelly, Austin, Vanover in the pipeline... right (?) all good students who fit the Cal brand well. The main issue was their youth plus Wyking's inexperience, being promoted from fourth assistant to head coach. Then Wyking's poor recruiting the next class resulting in guys getting run off. Imagine if we had landed a top class instead?

With the new college basketball transfer rules and early entry rosters change very quickly, especially when you have coaching changes and we have had 4 coaches over the last 6-7 years? You can't expect that coaches will leave and ever "leave a full cupboard" it just doesn't work like that anymore. Even a "full cupboard" will depart when there is a coaching change. The issue is Cuonzo leaving (which was almost entirely due to the money and couldn't be helped) and our swing and a miss on his replacement, which could have been. More recently it was the late firing of Wyking and the hiring of a guy who had been out of coaching (and thus recruiting) for a year. Wyking and Fox were both late arrivals in the recruiting cycle and our recruiting has suffered, as has our record, which in turn impacts our recruiting....
If I were to list reasons we found ourselves in the hole we did, the quality of Cuonzo's recruiting would be very low on the list, if at all.

However, that new dynamism in roster turnover also means new coaches can transform rosters quickly too. The challenge for Fox is building momentum to climb out of the hole we pretty much dug for ourselves.

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Martin knew Brown and Rabb would be early departures (in fact he was lucky to get a second year out of Rabb), so that was Martin's doing. I'm not sure of the new recruiting rules you are referring to that were around during Martin's tenure, but if he was recruiting kids that were good fits then they wouldn't have transferred.

Tyson Jolly, Oscar Fryer, Darrius Milstead, and some other guy who's name I can't recall and got kicked off the team he ended up with, were all reported to have verbally committed or were trying to get admitted. JHD is another that ended up a bad fit academically, and then there was McCullough who committed just days before Martin bolted. [Edit: It is also probably worth noting that Martin didn't make retaining Monty's Rorie commitment a priority because he had a couple of other point guards lined up, but he eventually had to go with Plan C recruit Chuaca]. Bradley, Kelly, and Vanover were all Jones recruits.

Martin may have ultimately left for the money, but the state of the program certainly didn't make the choice very difficult for him. IMO it was 100% due to his recruiting.

Don't forget Chauca and Roman Davis as epic misses. Don Coleman wasn't too great either.

Growler91 said:

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I think we all agree we want four-year guys who develop, but you are generally not going to compete for the NCAAs without some consensus Top 100 players. What should Cal fans expect along those lines? Decent recruiters have pulled one per year on average.

For my money, Ben Braun is the Rodney Dangerfield of recruiting. He has been our best and most consistent recruiter in the last few decades. In addition to putting us in the hunt for Nowitzki and James, he gifted Monty his best team (comprised mostly of 4-year guys). In his last 11 recruiting cycles Braun pulled 12 top 100 players. And sorry, SFCityBear, DJ Seeley was a Braun recruit! Braun's consensus RSCI 100 recruits who stuck: Leon Powe (9), Jamal Sampson (23) Ayinde Ubaka (35), Brian Wethers (50), Patrick Christopher (57), DJ Seeley (71) Marquise Kately (78), Taylor Harrison (89), Devon Hardin (86), Dennis Gates (92), Donte Smith (92).

Martin averaged one a year but put us on the map for guys we just never would have had a chance at: Jaylen Brown (3), Ivan Rabb (5), Charlie Moore (58) and had us in the hunt for Swanigan. One thing a lot of fans overlook: he almost didn't get Brown and Rabb admitted and Dirks had to twist arms to make it happen.

Monty only landed three in six years: Jabari Bird (20), Gary Franklin (57), Tyrone Wallace (94). No comment on Franklin. His best recruit was clearly Crabbe who didn't make the consensus list. He had completely blown it with Rabb and Martin saved that situation.

Wyking Jones obviously just got one in Matt Bradley (73). Oh, and he's like our whole team right now. So top 100 guys matter A LOT.

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What is meant by "stuck" in "Braun's consensus RSCI 100 recruits who stuck:..."

Stuck with their commitments. Braun got commits from Top 100 prospects Julian Sensley, who never got admitted, and Justin Davis, who flipped for Furd.

Growler91 said:

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Stuck with their commitments. Braun got commits from Top 100 prospects Julian Sensley, who never got admitted, and Justin Davis, who flipped for Furd.

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Got it, thanks.

Growler91 said:

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Stuck with their commitments. Braun got commits from Top 100 prospects Julian Sensley, who never got admitted, and Justin Davis, who flipped for Furd.

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Kennedy Winston another example. He signed letter of intent but was given his release when he said his mother was ill. He ended up at Alabama and became their leading scorer.

Growler91 said:

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I think we all agree we want four-year guys who develop, but you are generally not going to compete for the NCAAs without some consensus Top 100 players. What should Cal fans expect along those lines? Decent recruiters have pulled one per year on average.

For my money, Ben Braun is the Rodney Dangerfield of recruiting. He has been our best and most consistent recruiter in the last few decades. In addition to putting us in the hunt for Nowitzki and James, he gifted Monty his best team (comprised mostly of 4-year guys). In his last 11 recruiting cycles Braun pulled 12 top 100 players. And sorry, SFCityBear, DJ Seeley was a Braun recruit! Braun's consensus RSCI 100 recruits who stuck: Leon Powe (9), Jamal Sampson (23) Ayinde Ubaka (35), Brian Wethers (50), Patrick Christopher (57), DJ Seeley (71) Marquise Kately (78), Taylor Harrison (89), Devon Hardin (86), Dennis Gates (92), Donte Smith (92).

Martin averaged one a year but put us on the map for guys we just never would have had a chance at: Jaylen Brown (3), Ivan Rabb (5), Charlie Moore (58) and had us in the hunt for Swanigan. One thing a lot of fans overlook: he almost didn't get Brown and Rabb admitted and Dirks had to twist arms to make it happen.

Monty only landed three in six years: Jabari Bird (20), Gary Franklin (57), Tyrone Wallace (94). No comment on Franklin. His best recruit was clearly Crabbe who didn't make the consensus list. He had completely blown it with Rabb and Martin saved that situation.

Wyking Jones obviously just got one in Matt Bradley (73). Oh, and he's like our whole team right now. So top 100 guys matter A LOT.

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I don't disagree that you need some top 100 ranked players. But you have to understand that only about 40% of them will ever pan out, either as individual players, or as helping their team to success, or both. And you also must understand that it is only the top say 30 players whose rankings are accurate. Those players are most likely to help your team. The drawback is that they are most likely to leave after a year, and leave a big hole for the coach to have to fill. Also, the accuracy of the rankings as a predictor of success goes down as the ranking gets higher. Players in the 90-100 ranking are far less likely to become really good players. Wallace (94) was an exception, and not the rule.

I was comparing Martin to Montgomery, which is a little unfair to Martin, because Montgomery had 6 years at Cal, while Martin had only 3 years. Comparing Braun with Montgomery is a little unfair because he had 12 years to Montgomery's 6, and 12 years to Martin's 3.

A few corrections: Braun got 11 top 100 recruits in 12 years, not 12 recruits, according to your list. If you add transfers Omar Wilkes (55) and Boykin (60) that would make 13. I left Seeley in your list, but I could make the argument that it took some persuasion by Montgomery to get Seeley to keep his commitment. I wish Braun had kept him. Seeley was a talented player, who sulked on the bench at Cal, because he wasn't playing, and when he did play, he gave about 50% effort. I wish Braun had kept him and taken him to Rice, instead of having him take up a scholarship on our roster. Montgomery also traveled to Oregon to get Braun commit Garrett Sim to keep his commitment, but he failed. Another correction was that Allen Crabbe was not unranked as you said, he was ranked #71 in the RSCI Composite consenus rankings for 2010. And a minor correction would be Patrick Christopher was ranked #47, not #57. And since you say Seeley was a Braun recruit, well, then by that logic, isn't Bradley a Martin recruit, and not a Wyking recruit? I know Sueing, Anticevich, and Baker were Martin recruits, and I thought Bradley was as well.

Braun was an OK recruiter, not great, IMO, but one thing he was even better at was judging ranked or unranked talent, either recruits or transfers, and he brought in so many good ones: Ryan Anderson, Amit Tamir, Midgley, Randle, Theo, Willkes (55) Boykin (60), Lampley, Mike Gill, Carl Boyd, Joe Shipp. Elson, Carlisle, Kilgore, Benson, McGuire, Kamp, Paris, and more. I think many of Braun's unranked players were better than most of his ranked recruits.

One thing I would say happened on Braun's watch was that the seeds of Cal's empty cupboard were laid when Braun turned over a roster where most of the starters were all juniors to Montgomery in 2008. In 2010, the all graduated and Montgomery's cupboard was pretty bare, He needed to get a lot of recruits fast, and while he got Crabbe, Seeley quit the team, and so did Franklin after the pre-PAC12 season, and Solomon took a long time to develop. If Braun had not been fired, he would have faced the empty cupboard as well, and maybe should have known better, because it had happened to him when he took over from Bozeman, who left him with a roster loaded with seniors, and even though they had a good run in the NCAA, it would take a few years before Braun could recruit enough players to get back to the NCAA again.

If you want to compare Braun vs Montgomery, how about doing it over their first 6 years at Cal:

Braun recruits: Gates #92, Smith #96, Wethers #50, and Sampson #23
Other good players: Lampley, Gill, Carlisle, Kilgore, Elson, Hughes, Boyd, Shipp, Van der Laan, Legans, Tamir

Montgomery recruits: Crabbe #71, Franklin #57, Wallace #94, Bird #20
Other good players: Jorge, Sanders-Frison, Solomon, Thurman, Cobbs, Kravish, Mathews

So I'd say that over their first 6 seasons at Cal, Montgomery did a little bit better in the quality of his ranked recruits, but Braun did a better in the quality and quantity of his unranked players. Just my opinion.

"I was comparing Martin to Montgomery, which is a little unfair to Martin, because Montgomery had 6 years at Cal, while Martin had only 3 years. "

Time is not Martin's friend. He looks good early and then gyroscopes back to his true mediocre as time goes on.

SFCityBear said:

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And since you say Seeley was a Braun recruit, well, then by that logic, isn't Bradley a Martin recruit, and not a Wyking recruit? I know Sueing, Anticevich, and Baker were Martin recruits, and I thought Bradley was as well.

Braun was an OK recruiter, not great, IMO, but one thing he was even better at was judging ranked or unranked talent, either recruits or transfers, and he brought in so many good ones: Ryan Anderson, Amit Tamir, Midgley, Randle, Theo, Willkes (55) Boykin (60), Lampley, Mike Gill, Carl Boyd, Joe Shipp. Elson, Carlisle, Kilgore, Benson, McGuire, Kamp, Paris, and more. I think many of Braun's unranked players were better than most of his ranked recruits.

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Seeley committed while Braun was the coach. Badley was a year after Suing, Anticecich, and Baker, and was a Jones recruit.

I'm not sure if your composite rankings included the final Rival rankings (which was the service everyone seemed to be paying attention to at the time, but Anderson, Randle, and Midgley all ended up making their top 100 list on the final iteration.

Civil Bear said:

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SFCityBear said:

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And since you say Seeley was a Braun recruit, well, then by that logic, isn't Bradley a Martin recruit, and not a Wyking recruit? I know Sueing, Anticevich, and Baker were Martin recruits, and I thought Bradley was as well.

Braun was an OK recruiter, not great, IMO, but one thing he was even better at was judging ranked or unranked talent, either recruits or transfers, and he brought in so many good ones: Ryan Anderson, Amit Tamir, Midgley, Randle, Theo, Willkes (55) Boykin (60), Lampley, Mike Gill, Carl Boyd, Joe Shipp. Elson, Carlisle, Kilgore, Benson, McGuire, Kamp, Paris, and more. I think many of Braun's unranked players were better than most of his ranked recruits.

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Seeley committed while Braun was the coach.

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Braun not only recruited DJ Seeley. He pitched the family on sticking with it after he was fired. Most people would not do that.
https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2008/03/29/braun-firing-surprises-top-recruit/

Civil Bear said:

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SFCityBear said:

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And since you say Seeley was a Braun recruit, well, then by that logic, isn't Bradley a Martin recruit, and not a Wyking recruit? I know Sueing, Anticevich, and Baker were Martin recruits, and I thought Bradley was as well.

Braun was an OK recruiter, not great, IMO, but one thing he was even better at was judging ranked or unranked talent, either recruits or transfers, and he brought in so many good ones: Ryan Anderson, Amit Tamir, Midgley, Randle, Theo, Willkes (55) Boykin (60), Lampley, Mike Gill, Carl Boyd, Joe Shipp. Elson, Carlisle, Kilgore, Benson, McGuire, Kamp, Paris, and more. I think many of Braun's unranked players were better than most of his ranked recruits.

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Seeley committed while Braun was the coach. Badley was a year after Suing, Anticecich, and Baker, and was a Jones recruit.

I'm not sure if your composite rankings included the final Rival rankings (which was the service everyone seemed to be paying attention to at the time, but Anderson, Randle, and Midgley all ended up making their top 100 list on the final iteration.

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Growler91 said Seeley committed while Braun was the coach, and I agreed with him, except that I read in this forum that Montgomery said that he had met with both Seeley and Sim to confirm their commitment to Cal, and Seeley agreed to honor his commitment and Sim opted to switch to Oregon. I could be wrong, but that is what I remembered.

The final RSCI composite rankings for 2006 did include Rivals rankings, and RSCI composite lists Christopher as #47, and Harrison as #89, but Anderson and Randle are not on the list. The Rivals top 150 for 2006 show Christopher at #44, and Ryan Anderson at #98, but don't show Harrison or Randle on their list. It could be that RSCI compiled their list before Rivals released their final list, and so missed Anderson. Most of the players ranked on the RSCI composite list were ranked by 5 or 6 ranking services, and no one who made the list was ranked by less than 3 services. If Anderson was only ranked by Rivals alone, perhaps that is why he did not appear on the list.

The RSCI composite for 2002 which I found did not have Rivals as one of their experts which was included in the composite rankings. I found the Rivals rankings for 2002, and Midgley was not listed as ranked there either. It might not have been the final ranking list.

IIRC, Sim bailed before meeting with Monty. I seem to remember some flak about letting him out of his LOI without first hearing Monty out.. The irony? Monty used the open scholly to get Jorge and Jorge went undefeated against Sim and the Ducks for 4 years.

When comparing recruiting from Braun thru Jones, it really isn't close to an apples to apples comparison for SOOOO many reasons . . .

• Time spans - the longer a coach's tenure - the more their results at Cal impact recruiting. First two recruiting cycles are a chaotic jumble.
• The coach - some focus more on recruiting than other aspects, also style of play, personality, etc. Also much has to do with the staff, not just the head coach. Much more complicated than the grocery store portrayal of recruiting that more than a few BIers seem to believe (I'll take one 4-star, 3 stars, one 7 foot project and an occasional 5-star, please).
• The Bears - perception of Cal (and its sports programs) changes significantly over time in the minds of recruits and parents - always has, always will.
• Recruiting environment - the field of competing schools, options, desires changes very dramatically every few years (if not every season). Comparing recruiting in 2020 to 2010 or even 2015 is foolhardy. Comparing it to 2000 is Ludacris. Comparisons to anything earlier are simply insane.

Of course you can look at relative recruiting performances of coaches over the last 20 years, which happens to be the span the recruiting services have been putting out pretty comprehensive rankings. This is just silly.

Growler91 said:

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Of course you can look at relative recruiting performances of coaches over the last 20 years, which happens to be the span the recruiting services have been putting out pretty comprehensive rankings. This is just silly.

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FWIW, my middle name is silly and I think you missed my point, completely.

But go ahead. Try and convince me that Monty's recruitment of Ivan Rabb and Martin's recruitment of Ivan Rabb are completely explained by the recruiting services and their rankings. Then use that same logic to explain Braun's recruitments of Julian Sensley, Leon Powe and DJ Seeley.

BTW - I agree with you about Braun and gave your post a blue star.

Regards,

BeachedSillyBear

BeachedBear said:

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Growler91 said:

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Of course you can look at relative recruiting performances of coaches over the last 20 years, which happens to be the span the recruiting services have been putting out pretty comprehensive rankings. This is just silly.

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FWIW, my middle name is silly and I think you missed my point, completely.

But go ahead. Try and convince me that Monty's recruitment of Ivan Rabb and Martin's recruitment of Ivan Rabb are completely explained by the recruiting services and their rankings. Then use that same logic to explain Braun's recruitments of Julian Sensley, Leon Powe and DJ Seeley.

BTW - I agree with you about Braun and gave your post a blue star.

Regards,

BeachedSillyBear

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This post gets a star. My middle name is jackass. Monty didn't think he could get Ivan in so focused on the Euro. Martin didn't understand who he could get in to Cal and got a lot of help from the administration to make Rabb happen. He also failed to get some other guys in and recruited a lot of bad fits. If Fox could recruit at Braun level, we will be all right. Go Bears.

Growler91 said:

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BeachedBear said:

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Growler91 said:

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Of course you can look at relative recruiting performances of coaches over the last 20 years, which happens to be the span the recruiting services have been putting out pretty comprehensive rankings. This is just silly.

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FWIW, my middle name is silly and I think you missed my point, completely.

But go ahead. Try and convince me that Monty's recruitment of Ivan Rabb and Martin's recruitment of Ivan Rabb are completely explained by the recruiting services and their rankings. Then use that same logic to explain Braun's recruitments of Julian Sensley, Leon Powe and DJ Seeley.

BTW - I agree with you about Braun and gave your post a blue star.

Regards,

BeachedSillyBear

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This post gets a star. My middle name is jackass. Monty didn't think he could get Ivan in so focused on the Euro. Martin didn't understand who he could get in to Cal and got a lot of help from the administration to make Rabb happen. He also failed to get some other guys in and recruited a lot of bad fits. If Fox could recruit at Braun level, we will be all right. Go Bears.

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Monty was such a good coach, that his disdain for how recruiting had changed during his career, leaves a bad taste. To Rabb's mom (and probably Ivan too), I can appreciate how Martin seemed the anti-Monty. If we take away Rabb,then Brown probably doesn't come to Cal. Take away those two and Martin was not a good recruiter while at Cal, even though he probably had one of the most recruiting-heavy staffs of all of them. Conversely, if Monty gets Rabb (even without Brown), Monty instantly jumps to the top of the recruiting list and all the bad taste is forgotten.