Vaccine Redux - Vax up and go to Class

117,154 Views | 2422 Replies | Last: 12 hrs ago by oski003
going4roses
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I hate it here
Unit2Sucks
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oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Some interesting points. Mrna zealots, please try to focus on countering the message and not the messenger.

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/aug/5/biden-teams-misguided-and-deadly-covid-19-vaccine-/
Ridiculous article and you know it. The authors argue that we should accept that every single person will ultimately get COVID and that the vaccines won't stop that from occurring at this point because the virus is too widespread. I don't disagree with that: through very effective messaging and misinformation, one side of our society ensured that we would be in this position. The consistent opposition to all public health measures has prevented us from coming anywhere close to eradicating the virus and has resulted in the loss of over 600k lives so far, with tens of thousands still to come. The vaccines haven't caused any excess deaths.

What I disagree with is their complete misrepresentation of the risks associated with COVID. If you accept that you will either get the vaccine or COCID (and possibly both!), then you need to evaluate the risks of COVID with the risks of the vaccine and no credible person has said that the vaccine is riskier to any individual than COVID. Yet, Malone and Navarro state the following: "For much of the rest of the population, there's nothing to fear but fear of the virus itself."

If anyone is worried about any side effects from the mRNA vaccines, they should be absolutely terrified of COVID because it's much worse.

Bonus points that they continue to advocate for HCQ and Ivermectin despite the fact that there has been more evidence of fraud in promoting those drugs than there has been in their effectiveness in fighting COVID, particularly as a propyhlactic. The Ivermectin research in particular is garbage - the flagship study was pretty much a cut and paste affair from other work, with execrable methodologies, and has since been withdrawn. There is no way Robert Malone would ever take Ivermectin and you can bet your bottom dollar that Lindsay Graham is on monoclonal antibodies and dexamethasone and hasn't come anywhere close to HCQ or Ivermectin, nor has any other prominent Republican, pillow retailer, Fox News host or any other prominent person when dealing with COVID. The best therapeutic for COVID for most people has been dexamethasone (a cheap and readily available steroid) but for whatever reason you have a number of hucksters fixated on these other unproven and potentially dangerous medications.



Your arguments here and elsewhere run on the premise that covid has the same side effects as the vaccines but worse. If this is true, why does JnJ cause different side effects than Moderna and Pfizer?


False. COVID causes damage to a variety of different organs and causes a variety of different conditions so it's not just about severity and rates. Blood clots are far more common with COVID than AZ and J&J vaccines. Myocarditis is far more common with COVID then mRNA vaccines. The concerns with the vaccines are far more limited than the concerns with COVID itself. The problem is that anti-vaxxers have convinced vaccine hesitant people to pay attention to the relatively rare and less severe problems potentially associated with vaccines and to ignore the more common and more severe conditions associated with COVID.

Literally killing people with misinformation.


What is more dangerous to a healthy 12 year old boy?

The mere existence of covid in his community which he may have already been lightly exposed to, fought it off, and not even realized?

or

Being injected with 100 ug mRNA spike protein vaccine?

One must consider that many healthy people can fight off the virus without symptoms. Young healthy people, such as athletes, are getting myocarditis. I don't believe the same people that get myocarditis from injected mRNA spike protein vaccines are necessarily the same people that would get sick from the virus.
Myocarditis can occur even in asymptomatic COVID infections and we know that it's far more common forllowing COVID infections than the mRNA vaccines. So you are dissembling here but the answer is that at the population level COVID is more dangerous than the vaccines. It's more dangerous for healthy people, for unhealthy people, for people susceptible to myocarditis and other heart problems, and to those who aren't. You just don't want to acknowledge reality.

The NYT reported on this 2 days ago as well.

Quote:

Heart problems following vaccination in the U.S. are uncommon and short-lived, researchers reported.

For every one million Americans immunized with a coronavirus vaccine, about 60 develop temporary heart problems, according to a study published on Wednesday in the journal JAMA.

The complications were all short-lived, the researchers found. And these heart problems are far more common among patients who develop Covid-19, outside experts noted.
...
"We see that these adverse events are leading to very short and unremarkable hospital stays," said Dr. Jeremy Faust, an emergency medicine physician at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston who was not involved in the study. "The same can't be said of hospitalizations for Covid-19 in this or any age group so far."

"When people are hospitalized for Covid, the consequences are far more severe," added Dr. Faust, who has compared rates of myocarditis following vaccination to those among Covid-19 patients.

There was a study released last May showing how common myocarditis was among Big-10 athletes when tested for it, so this is nothing new. Fortunately, in the vast majority of cases people fully recover from myocarditis, whether it's post-COVID or post-vaccine. And it appears that following vaccination, cases that do occur tend to be milder. This is something that people should pay attention to but people like you are blowing it way out of proportion because it's one of the few tangible things you can point to in order to wage your war against vaccines.




Before I read the nyt article, which I will, I just want to clarify that I am not waging a war against vaccines. I am not sure why you would think that way. I am "waging a war" against lack of covid 19 vaccine choice and stifling of covid 19 vaccine development in the U.S. I think BP is trying to develop their own safer vaccines while holding back other techs.
You are waging a war of misinformation. You may think your agenda is what you just stated, but you are using textbook anti-vax methods to encourage hesitancy. You report on every negative piece of information you can find, even if you know it's garbage. Those vaccines have already saved hundreds of thousands of lives in this country from the real threat - COVID.

You clearly have no objectivity here, as evidenced by your irrational position on big pharma. I call it irrational because you support other vaccines that big pharma was trying to create (like Merck and Sanofi/GSK) and you lump Moderna in with big pharma (which it clearly was not at the start of this process).

Time to recognize that you have turned into a run of the mill anti-vaxxer.
oski003
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Some interesting points. Mrna zealots, please try to focus on countering the message and not the messenger.

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/aug/5/biden-teams-misguided-and-deadly-covid-19-vaccine-/
Ridiculous article and you know it. The authors argue that we should accept that every single person will ultimately get COVID and that the vaccines won't stop that from occurring at this point because the virus is too widespread. I don't disagree with that: through very effective messaging and misinformation, one side of our society ensured that we would be in this position. The consistent opposition to all public health measures has prevented us from coming anywhere close to eradicating the virus and has resulted in the loss of over 600k lives so far, with tens of thousands still to come. The vaccines haven't caused any excess deaths.

What I disagree with is their complete misrepresentation of the risks associated with COVID. If you accept that you will either get the vaccine or COCID (and possibly both!), then you need to evaluate the risks of COVID with the risks of the vaccine and no credible person has said that the vaccine is riskier to any individual than COVID. Yet, Malone and Navarro state the following: "For much of the rest of the population, there's nothing to fear but fear of the virus itself."

If anyone is worried about any side effects from the mRNA vaccines, they should be absolutely terrified of COVID because it's much worse.

Bonus points that they continue to advocate for HCQ and Ivermectin despite the fact that there has been more evidence of fraud in promoting those drugs than there has been in their effectiveness in fighting COVID, particularly as a propyhlactic. The Ivermectin research in particular is garbage - the flagship study was pretty much a cut and paste affair from other work, with execrable methodologies, and has since been withdrawn. There is no way Robert Malone would ever take Ivermectin and you can bet your bottom dollar that Lindsay Graham is on monoclonal antibodies and dexamethasone and hasn't come anywhere close to HCQ or Ivermectin, nor has any other prominent Republican, pillow retailer, Fox News host or any other prominent person when dealing with COVID. The best therapeutic for COVID for most people has been dexamethasone (a cheap and readily available steroid) but for whatever reason you have a number of hucksters fixated on these other unproven and potentially dangerous medications.



Your arguments here and elsewhere run on the premise that covid has the same side effects as the vaccines but worse. If this is true, why does JnJ cause different side effects than Moderna and Pfizer?


False. COVID causes damage to a variety of different organs and causes a variety of different conditions so it's not just about severity and rates. Blood clots are far more common with COVID than AZ and J&J vaccines. Myocarditis is far more common with COVID then mRNA vaccines. The concerns with the vaccines are far more limited than the concerns with COVID itself. The problem is that anti-vaxxers have convinced vaccine hesitant people to pay attention to the relatively rare and less severe problems potentially associated with vaccines and to ignore the more common and more severe conditions associated with COVID.

Literally killing people with misinformation.


What is more dangerous to a healthy 12 year old boy?

The mere existence of covid in his community which he may have already been lightly exposed to, fought it off, and not even realized?

or

Being injected with 100 ug mRNA spike protein vaccine?

One must consider that many healthy people can fight off the virus without symptoms. Young healthy people, such as athletes, are getting myocarditis. I don't believe the same people that get myocarditis from injected mRNA spike protein vaccines are necessarily the same people that would get sick from the virus.
Myocarditis can occur even in asymptomatic COVID infections and we know that it's far more common forllowing COVID infections than the mRNA vaccines. So you are dissembling here but the answer is that at the population level COVID is more dangerous than the vaccines. It's more dangerous for healthy people, for unhealthy people, for people susceptible to myocarditis and other heart problems, and to those who aren't. You just don't want to acknowledge reality.

The NYT reported on this 2 days ago as well.

Quote:

Heart problems following vaccination in the U.S. are uncommon and short-lived, researchers reported.

For every one million Americans immunized with a coronavirus vaccine, about 60 develop temporary heart problems, according to a study published on Wednesday in the journal JAMA.

The complications were all short-lived, the researchers found. And these heart problems are far more common among patients who develop Covid-19, outside experts noted.
...
"We see that these adverse events are leading to very short and unremarkable hospital stays," said Dr. Jeremy Faust, an emergency medicine physician at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston who was not involved in the study. "The same can't be said of hospitalizations for Covid-19 in this or any age group so far."

"When people are hospitalized for Covid, the consequences are far more severe," added Dr. Faust, who has compared rates of myocarditis following vaccination to those among Covid-19 patients.

There was a study released last May showing how common myocarditis was among Big-10 athletes when tested for it, so this is nothing new. Fortunately, in the vast majority of cases people fully recover from myocarditis, whether it's post-COVID or post-vaccine. And it appears that following vaccination, cases that do occur tend to be milder. This is something that people should pay attention to but people like you are blowing it way out of proportion because it's one of the few tangible things you can point to in order to wage your war against vaccines.




Before I read the nyt article, which I will, I just want to clarify that I am not waging a war against vaccines. I am not sure why you would think that way. I am "waging a war" against lack of covid 19 vaccine choice and stifling of covid 19 vaccine development in the U.S. I think BP is trying to develop their own safer vaccines while holding back other techs.
You are waging a war of misinformation. You may think your agenda is what you just stated, but you are using textbook anti-vax methods to encourage hesitancy. You report on every negative piece of information you can find, even if you know it's garbage. Those vaccines have already saved hundreds of thousands of lives in this country from the real threat - COVID.

You clearly have no objectivity here, as evidenced by your irrational position on big pharma. I call it irrational because you support other vaccines that big pharma was trying to create (like Merck and Sanofi/GSK) and you lump Moderna in with big pharma (which it clearly was not at the start of this process).

Time to recognize that you have turned into a run of the mill anti-vaxxer.


What have I said to support Merck or Sanofi despite past statements whereas I thought they would be players here? Merck bowed out and is focusing on treatments. Sanofi failed on their first go and is being waved through, bypassing steps, because they are BP with proven manufacturing and a proven technology. I assume Sanofi's vaccine will be safer than mRNA vaccines only because the bar is so incredibly low.

You clearly don't understand my position. I think it is because you actually think my posts kill people and your emotional defense of the EUA vaccines kicks into gear. Hysterical.
Unit2Sucks
How long do you want to ignore this user?
oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Some interesting points. Mrna zealots, please try to focus on countering the message and not the messenger.

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/aug/5/biden-teams-misguided-and-deadly-covid-19-vaccine-/
Ridiculous article and you know it. The authors argue that we should accept that every single person will ultimately get COVID and that the vaccines won't stop that from occurring at this point because the virus is too widespread. I don't disagree with that: through very effective messaging and misinformation, one side of our society ensured that we would be in this position. The consistent opposition to all public health measures has prevented us from coming anywhere close to eradicating the virus and has resulted in the loss of over 600k lives so far, with tens of thousands still to come. The vaccines haven't caused any excess deaths.

What I disagree with is their complete misrepresentation of the risks associated with COVID. If you accept that you will either get the vaccine or COCID (and possibly both!), then you need to evaluate the risks of COVID with the risks of the vaccine and no credible person has said that the vaccine is riskier to any individual than COVID. Yet, Malone and Navarro state the following: "For much of the rest of the population, there's nothing to fear but fear of the virus itself."

If anyone is worried about any side effects from the mRNA vaccines, they should be absolutely terrified of COVID because it's much worse.

Bonus points that they continue to advocate for HCQ and Ivermectin despite the fact that there has been more evidence of fraud in promoting those drugs than there has been in their effectiveness in fighting COVID, particularly as a propyhlactic. The Ivermectin research in particular is garbage - the flagship study was pretty much a cut and paste affair from other work, with execrable methodologies, and has since been withdrawn. There is no way Robert Malone would ever take Ivermectin and you can bet your bottom dollar that Lindsay Graham is on monoclonal antibodies and dexamethasone and hasn't come anywhere close to HCQ or Ivermectin, nor has any other prominent Republican, pillow retailer, Fox News host or any other prominent person when dealing with COVID. The best therapeutic for COVID for most people has been dexamethasone (a cheap and readily available steroid) but for whatever reason you have a number of hucksters fixated on these other unproven and potentially dangerous medications.



Your arguments here and elsewhere run on the premise that covid has the same side effects as the vaccines but worse. If this is true, why does JnJ cause different side effects than Moderna and Pfizer?


False. COVID causes damage to a variety of different organs and causes a variety of different conditions so it's not just about severity and rates. Blood clots are far more common with COVID than AZ and J&J vaccines. Myocarditis is far more common with COVID then mRNA vaccines. The concerns with the vaccines are far more limited than the concerns with COVID itself. The problem is that anti-vaxxers have convinced vaccine hesitant people to pay attention to the relatively rare and less severe problems potentially associated with vaccines and to ignore the more common and more severe conditions associated with COVID.

Literally killing people with misinformation.


What is more dangerous to a healthy 12 year old boy?

The mere existence of covid in his community which he may have already been lightly exposed to, fought it off, and not even realized?

or

Being injected with 100 ug mRNA spike protein vaccine?

One must consider that many healthy people can fight off the virus without symptoms. Young healthy people, such as athletes, are getting myocarditis. I don't believe the same people that get myocarditis from injected mRNA spike protein vaccines are necessarily the same people that would get sick from the virus.
Myocarditis can occur even in asymptomatic COVID infections and we know that it's far more common forllowing COVID infections than the mRNA vaccines. So you are dissembling here but the answer is that at the population level COVID is more dangerous than the vaccines. It's more dangerous for healthy people, for unhealthy people, for people susceptible to myocarditis and other heart problems, and to those who aren't. You just don't want to acknowledge reality.

The NYT reported on this 2 days ago as well.

Quote:

Heart problems following vaccination in the U.S. are uncommon and short-lived, researchers reported.

For every one million Americans immunized with a coronavirus vaccine, about 60 develop temporary heart problems, according to a study published on Wednesday in the journal JAMA.

The complications were all short-lived, the researchers found. And these heart problems are far more common among patients who develop Covid-19, outside experts noted.
...
"We see that these adverse events are leading to very short and unremarkable hospital stays," said Dr. Jeremy Faust, an emergency medicine physician at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston who was not involved in the study. "The same can't be said of hospitalizations for Covid-19 in this or any age group so far."

"When people are hospitalized for Covid, the consequences are far more severe," added Dr. Faust, who has compared rates of myocarditis following vaccination to those among Covid-19 patients.

There was a study released last May showing how common myocarditis was among Big-10 athletes when tested for it, so this is nothing new. Fortunately, in the vast majority of cases people fully recover from myocarditis, whether it's post-COVID or post-vaccine. And it appears that following vaccination, cases that do occur tend to be milder. This is something that people should pay attention to but people like you are blowing it way out of proportion because it's one of the few tangible things you can point to in order to wage your war against vaccines.




Before I read the nyt article, which I will, I just want to clarify that I am not waging a war against vaccines. I am not sure why you would think that way. I am "waging a war" against lack of covid 19 vaccine choice and stifling of covid 19 vaccine development in the U.S. I think BP is trying to develop their own safer vaccines while holding back other techs.
You are waging a war of misinformation. You may think your agenda is what you just stated, but you are using textbook anti-vax methods to encourage hesitancy. You report on every negative piece of information you can find, even if you know it's garbage. Those vaccines have already saved hundreds of thousands of lives in this country from the real threat - COVID.

You clearly have no objectivity here, as evidenced by your irrational position on big pharma. I call it irrational because you support other vaccines that big pharma was trying to create (like Merck and Sanofi/GSK) and you lump Moderna in with big pharma (which it clearly was not at the start of this process).

Time to recognize that you have turned into a run of the mill anti-vaxxer.


What have I said to support Merck or Sanofi despite past statements whereas I thought they would be players here? Merck bowed out and is focusing on treatments. Sanofi failed on their first go and is being waved through, bypassing steps, because they are BP with proven manufacturing and a proven technology. I assume Sanofi's vaccine will be safer than mRNA vaccines only because the bar is so incredibly low.

You clearly don't understand my position. I think it is because you actually think my posts kill people and your emotional defense of the EUA vaccines kicks into gear. Hysterical.

LOL. Here we go again with the bar being "incredibly low". The mRNA vaccines are the safest and most effective COVID vaccines. Full stop.

As for my reaction, this has never been about me. I am just here to fight misinformation. I didn't use a concierge doctor to take a vaccine - I accepted the vaccine that was available to me. I'm thankful that we have vaccines that are massively reducing the COVID death toll and helping prevent us from having an even worse atrocity.

I'm not sure what you are even saying in your first sentence, but you had Merck and Sanofi at the top of your COVID vaccine candidate rankings. Here's what you said late last year:

Quote:

Which vaccine will be the best? I believe covid 19 is an easy target re effectiveness as long as it doesnt mutate. However, many vaccine platforms may only last 6-12 months.

Here is who and why...

1) Merck - this one wont be ready for a while and in limited quantities. it may be the only platform that will be safe, extremely effective, and long lasting. it is based on the measles vaccine. i am saying this solely on Merck's track record and the likelihood that this concept works.

2) Sanofi protein based vaccine

Proven vs the flu. known track record. likely needs a boost after a year.

3) Inovio DNA vaccine

No side effects. Held up by lack of inclusion in OWS/politics.

4) Novavax protein vaccine

Same as Sanofi but lacks the proven track record. Some side effects from Matrix M bark adjuvant.

5) Pfizer MRNA vaccine

Great on antibodies but terrible side effects. No side effects have reported to have lasted more than 3 days. Volunteers have reported otherwise but they could be anti-vaxxers.

6) Moderna mRNA vaccine.

Same as Pfizer but more than triple the dose. 100 ug vs 30 ug.

7). Tie - AZN and JnJ ... AZN has data issues, has been thoroughly dishonest, and has had two cases of transvere myelitis in their vaccine volunteer group. they also gave volunteers aspirin to mask side effects. JnJ has been completely secretive and was halted for a grade 4 side effect that has been hidden from the public.

Vaxart and Altimmune also use the adenovirus vector platform but different delivery methods. Both China and Sputnik use adenovirus as well.

oski003
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Some interesting points. Mrna zealots, please try to focus on countering the message and not the messenger.

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/aug/5/biden-teams-misguided-and-deadly-covid-19-vaccine-/
Ridiculous article and you know it. The authors argue that we should accept that every single person will ultimately get COVID and that the vaccines won't stop that from occurring at this point because the virus is too widespread. I don't disagree with that: through very effective messaging and misinformation, one side of our society ensured that we would be in this position. The consistent opposition to all public health measures has prevented us from coming anywhere close to eradicating the virus and has resulted in the loss of over 600k lives so far, with tens of thousands still to come. The vaccines haven't caused any excess deaths.

What I disagree with is their complete misrepresentation of the risks associated with COVID. If you accept that you will either get the vaccine or COCID (and possibly both!), then you need to evaluate the risks of COVID with the risks of the vaccine and no credible person has said that the vaccine is riskier to any individual than COVID. Yet, Malone and Navarro state the following: "For much of the rest of the population, there's nothing to fear but fear of the virus itself."

If anyone is worried about any side effects from the mRNA vaccines, they should be absolutely terrified of COVID because it's much worse.

Bonus points that they continue to advocate for HCQ and Ivermectin despite the fact that there has been more evidence of fraud in promoting those drugs than there has been in their effectiveness in fighting COVID, particularly as a propyhlactic. The Ivermectin research in particular is garbage - the flagship study was pretty much a cut and paste affair from other work, with execrable methodologies, and has since been withdrawn. There is no way Robert Malone would ever take Ivermectin and you can bet your bottom dollar that Lindsay Graham is on monoclonal antibodies and dexamethasone and hasn't come anywhere close to HCQ or Ivermectin, nor has any other prominent Republican, pillow retailer, Fox News host or any other prominent person when dealing with COVID. The best therapeutic for COVID for most people has been dexamethasone (a cheap and readily available steroid) but for whatever reason you have a number of hucksters fixated on these other unproven and potentially dangerous medications.



Your arguments here and elsewhere run on the premise that covid has the same side effects as the vaccines but worse. If this is true, why does JnJ cause different side effects than Moderna and Pfizer?


False. COVID causes damage to a variety of different organs and causes a variety of different conditions so it's not just about severity and rates. Blood clots are far more common with COVID than AZ and J&J vaccines. Myocarditis is far more common with COVID then mRNA vaccines. The concerns with the vaccines are far more limited than the concerns with COVID itself. The problem is that anti-vaxxers have convinced vaccine hesitant people to pay attention to the relatively rare and less severe problems potentially associated with vaccines and to ignore the more common and more severe conditions associated with COVID.

Literally killing people with misinformation.


What is more dangerous to a healthy 12 year old boy?

The mere existence of covid in his community which he may have already been lightly exposed to, fought it off, and not even realized?

or

Being injected with 100 ug mRNA spike protein vaccine?

One must consider that many healthy people can fight off the virus without symptoms. Young healthy people, such as athletes, are getting myocarditis. I don't believe the same people that get myocarditis from injected mRNA spike protein vaccines are necessarily the same people that would get sick from the virus.
Myocarditis can occur even in asymptomatic COVID infections and we know that it's far more common forllowing COVID infections than the mRNA vaccines. So you are dissembling here but the answer is that at the population level COVID is more dangerous than the vaccines. It's more dangerous for healthy people, for unhealthy people, for people susceptible to myocarditis and other heart problems, and to those who aren't. You just don't want to acknowledge reality.

The NYT reported on this 2 days ago as well.

Quote:

Heart problems following vaccination in the U.S. are uncommon and short-lived, researchers reported.

For every one million Americans immunized with a coronavirus vaccine, about 60 develop temporary heart problems, according to a study published on Wednesday in the journal JAMA.

The complications were all short-lived, the researchers found. And these heart problems are far more common among patients who develop Covid-19, outside experts noted.
...
"We see that these adverse events are leading to very short and unremarkable hospital stays," said Dr. Jeremy Faust, an emergency medicine physician at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston who was not involved in the study. "The same can't be said of hospitalizations for Covid-19 in this or any age group so far."

"When people are hospitalized for Covid, the consequences are far more severe," added Dr. Faust, who has compared rates of myocarditis following vaccination to those among Covid-19 patients.

There was a study released last May showing how common myocarditis was among Big-10 athletes when tested for it, so this is nothing new. Fortunately, in the vast majority of cases people fully recover from myocarditis, whether it's post-COVID or post-vaccine. And it appears that following vaccination, cases that do occur tend to be milder. This is something that people should pay attention to but people like you are blowing it way out of proportion because it's one of the few tangible things you can point to in order to wage your war against vaccines.




Before I read the nyt article, which I will, I just want to clarify that I am not waging a war against vaccines. I am not sure why you would think that way. I am "waging a war" against lack of covid 19 vaccine choice and stifling of covid 19 vaccine development in the U.S. I think BP is trying to develop their own safer vaccines while holding back other techs.
You are waging a war of misinformation. You may think your agenda is what you just stated, but you are using textbook anti-vax methods to encourage hesitancy. You report on every negative piece of information you can find, even if you know it's garbage. Those vaccines have already saved hundreds of thousands of lives in this country from the real threat - COVID.

You clearly have no objectivity here, as evidenced by your irrational position on big pharma. I call it irrational because you support other vaccines that big pharma was trying to create (like Merck and Sanofi/GSK) and you lump Moderna in with big pharma (which it clearly was not at the start of this process).

Time to recognize that you have turned into a run of the mill anti-vaxxer.


Since I am being accused of reporting on every negative piece of information I find, I might as well actually do so for once. Normally, I wouldn't post this unverified information.

https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/some-actual-news?r=m7jq6&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email&utm_source=twitter

Covid vaccine maker Moderna received 300,000 reports of side effects after vaccinations over a three-month period following the launch of its shot, according to an internal report from a company that helps Moderna manage the reports.

That figure is far higher than the number of side effect reports about Moderna's vaccine publicly available in the federal system that tracks such adverse events.
oski003
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Some interesting points. Mrna zealots, please try to focus on countering the message and not the messenger.

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/aug/5/biden-teams-misguided-and-deadly-covid-19-vaccine-/
Ridiculous article and you know it. The authors argue that we should accept that every single person will ultimately get COVID and that the vaccines won't stop that from occurring at this point because the virus is too widespread. I don't disagree with that: through very effective messaging and misinformation, one side of our society ensured that we would be in this position. The consistent opposition to all public health measures has prevented us from coming anywhere close to eradicating the virus and has resulted in the loss of over 600k lives so far, with tens of thousands still to come. The vaccines haven't caused any excess deaths.

What I disagree with is their complete misrepresentation of the risks associated with COVID. If you accept that you will either get the vaccine or COCID (and possibly both!), then you need to evaluate the risks of COVID with the risks of the vaccine and no credible person has said that the vaccine is riskier to any individual than COVID. Yet, Malone and Navarro state the following: "For much of the rest of the population, there's nothing to fear but fear of the virus itself."

If anyone is worried about any side effects from the mRNA vaccines, they should be absolutely terrified of COVID because it's much worse.

Bonus points that they continue to advocate for HCQ and Ivermectin despite the fact that there has been more evidence of fraud in promoting those drugs than there has been in their effectiveness in fighting COVID, particularly as a propyhlactic. The Ivermectin research in particular is garbage - the flagship study was pretty much a cut and paste affair from other work, with execrable methodologies, and has since been withdrawn. There is no way Robert Malone would ever take Ivermectin and you can bet your bottom dollar that Lindsay Graham is on monoclonal antibodies and dexamethasone and hasn't come anywhere close to HCQ or Ivermectin, nor has any other prominent Republican, pillow retailer, Fox News host or any other prominent person when dealing with COVID. The best therapeutic for COVID for most people has been dexamethasone (a cheap and readily available steroid) but for whatever reason you have a number of hucksters fixated on these other unproven and potentially dangerous medications.



Your arguments here and elsewhere run on the premise that covid has the same side effects as the vaccines but worse. If this is true, why does JnJ cause different side effects than Moderna and Pfizer?


False. COVID causes damage to a variety of different organs and causes a variety of different conditions so it's not just about severity and rates. Blood clots are far more common with COVID than AZ and J&J vaccines. Myocarditis is far more common with COVID then mRNA vaccines. The concerns with the vaccines are far more limited than the concerns with COVID itself. The problem is that anti-vaxxers have convinced vaccine hesitant people to pay attention to the relatively rare and less severe problems potentially associated with vaccines and to ignore the more common and more severe conditions associated with COVID.

Literally killing people with misinformation.


What is more dangerous to a healthy 12 year old boy?

The mere existence of covid in his community which he may have already been lightly exposed to, fought it off, and not even realized?

or

Being injected with 100 ug mRNA spike protein vaccine?

One must consider that many healthy people can fight off the virus without symptoms. Young healthy people, such as athletes, are getting myocarditis. I don't believe the same people that get myocarditis from injected mRNA spike protein vaccines are necessarily the same people that would get sick from the virus.
Myocarditis can occur even in asymptomatic COVID infections and we know that it's far more common forllowing COVID infections than the mRNA vaccines. So you are dissembling here but the answer is that at the population level COVID is more dangerous than the vaccines. It's more dangerous for healthy people, for unhealthy people, for people susceptible to myocarditis and other heart problems, and to those who aren't. You just don't want to acknowledge reality.

The NYT reported on this 2 days ago as well.

Quote:

Heart problems following vaccination in the U.S. are uncommon and short-lived, researchers reported.

For every one million Americans immunized with a coronavirus vaccine, about 60 develop temporary heart problems, according to a study published on Wednesday in the journal JAMA.

The complications were all short-lived, the researchers found. And these heart problems are far more common among patients who develop Covid-19, outside experts noted.
...
"We see that these adverse events are leading to very short and unremarkable hospital stays," said Dr. Jeremy Faust, an emergency medicine physician at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston who was not involved in the study. "The same can't be said of hospitalizations for Covid-19 in this or any age group so far."

"When people are hospitalized for Covid, the consequences are far more severe," added Dr. Faust, who has compared rates of myocarditis following vaccination to those among Covid-19 patients.

There was a study released last May showing how common myocarditis was among Big-10 athletes when tested for it, so this is nothing new. Fortunately, in the vast majority of cases people fully recover from myocarditis, whether it's post-COVID or post-vaccine. And it appears that following vaccination, cases that do occur tend to be milder. This is something that people should pay attention to but people like you are blowing it way out of proportion because it's one of the few tangible things you can point to in order to wage your war against vaccines.




Before I read the nyt article, which I will, I just want to clarify that I am not waging a war against vaccines. I am not sure why you would think that way. I am "waging a war" against lack of covid 19 vaccine choice and stifling of covid 19 vaccine development in the U.S. I think BP is trying to develop their own safer vaccines while holding back other techs.
You are waging a war of misinformation. You may think your agenda is what you just stated, but you are using textbook anti-vax methods to encourage hesitancy. You report on every negative piece of information you can find, even if you know it's garbage. Those vaccines have already saved hundreds of thousands of lives in this country from the real threat - COVID.

You clearly have no objectivity here, as evidenced by your irrational position on big pharma. I call it irrational because you support other vaccines that big pharma was trying to create (like Merck and Sanofi/GSK) and you lump Moderna in with big pharma (which it clearly was not at the start of this process).

Time to recognize that you have turned into a run of the mill anti-vaxxer.


What have I said to support Merck or Sanofi despite past statements whereas I thought they would be players here? Merck bowed out and is focusing on treatments. Sanofi failed on their first go and is being waved through, bypassing steps, because they are BP with proven manufacturing and a proven technology. I assume Sanofi's vaccine will be safer than mRNA vaccines only because the bar is so incredibly low.

You clearly don't understand my position. I think it is because you actually think my posts kill people and your emotional defense of the EUA vaccines kicks into gear. Hysterical.

LOL. Here we go again with the bar being "incredibly low". The mRNA vaccines are the safest and most effective COVID vaccines. Full stop.

As for my reaction, this has never been about me. I am just here to fight misinformation. I didn't use a concierge doctor to take a vaccine - I accepted the vaccine that was available to me. I'm thankful that we have vaccines that are massively reducing the COVID death toll and helping prevent us from having an even worse atrocity.

I'm not sure what you are even saying in your first sentence, but you had Merck and Sanofi at the top of your COVID vaccine candidate rankings. Here's what you said late last year:

Quote:

Which vaccine will be the best? I believe covid 19 is an easy target re effectiveness as long as it doesnt mutate. However, many vaccine platforms may only last 6-12 months.

Here is who and why...

1) Merck - this one wont be ready for a while and in limited quantities. it may be the only platform that will be safe, extremely effective, and long lasting. it is based on the measles vaccine. i am saying this solely on Merck's track record and the likelihood that this concept works.

2) Sanofi protein based vaccine

Proven vs the flu. known track record. likely needs a boost after a year.

3) Inovio DNA vaccine

No side effects. Held up by lack of inclusion in OWS/politics.

4) Novavax protein vaccine

Same as Sanofi but lacks the proven track record. Some side effects from Matrix M bark adjuvant.

5) Pfizer MRNA vaccine

Great on antibodies but terrible side effects. No side effects have reported to have lasted more than 3 days. Volunteers have reported otherwise but they could be anti-vaxxers.

6) Moderna mRNA vaccine.

Same as Pfizer but more than triple the dose. 100 ug vs 30 ug.

7). Tie - AZN and JnJ ... AZN has data issues, has been thoroughly dishonest, and has had two cases of transvere myelitis in their vaccine volunteer group. they also gave volunteers aspirin to mask side effects. JnJ has been completely secretive and was halted for a grade 4 side effect that has been hidden from the public.

Vaxart and Altimmune also use the adenovirus vector platform but different delivery methods. Both China and Sputnik use adenovirus as well.




There is nothing wrong with my posts here. I simply made predictions a long time ago and gave deference to BP, especially one with a proven, safe effective vaccine record like Merck.

I put mRNA and Pfizer at the bottom because I felt their p1 side effect profile would not get them approved. I assumed they would have competition.
oski003
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Read the nyt article. Two comments.

1) JAMA says 57 per 100k. Not per 1,000,000. Is NYT wrong or am I misanalyzing the JAMA data?

2) you say the myocarditis is not serious based on the nyt data because it implies that 13 out of 19 vaccine induced myocarditis patients leave the hospital within 3 weeks. Is that the kind of bar you want to set for seriousness? Are you for real? Vaccines shouldn't harm people this way.
Unit2Sucks
How long do you want to ignore this user?
oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Some interesting points. Mrna zealots, please try to focus on countering the message and not the messenger.

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/aug/5/biden-teams-misguided-and-deadly-covid-19-vaccine-/
Ridiculous article and you know it. The authors argue that we should accept that every single person will ultimately get COVID and that the vaccines won't stop that from occurring at this point because the virus is too widespread. I don't disagree with that: through very effective messaging and misinformation, one side of our society ensured that we would be in this position. The consistent opposition to all public health measures has prevented us from coming anywhere close to eradicating the virus and has resulted in the loss of over 600k lives so far, with tens of thousands still to come. The vaccines haven't caused any excess deaths.

What I disagree with is their complete misrepresentation of the risks associated with COVID. If you accept that you will either get the vaccine or COCID (and possibly both!), then you need to evaluate the risks of COVID with the risks of the vaccine and no credible person has said that the vaccine is riskier to any individual than COVID. Yet, Malone and Navarro state the following: "For much of the rest of the population, there's nothing to fear but fear of the virus itself."

If anyone is worried about any side effects from the mRNA vaccines, they should be absolutely terrified of COVID because it's much worse.

Bonus points that they continue to advocate for HCQ and Ivermectin despite the fact that there has been more evidence of fraud in promoting those drugs than there has been in their effectiveness in fighting COVID, particularly as a propyhlactic. The Ivermectin research in particular is garbage - the flagship study was pretty much a cut and paste affair from other work, with execrable methodologies, and has since been withdrawn. There is no way Robert Malone would ever take Ivermectin and you can bet your bottom dollar that Lindsay Graham is on monoclonal antibodies and dexamethasone and hasn't come anywhere close to HCQ or Ivermectin, nor has any other prominent Republican, pillow retailer, Fox News host or any other prominent person when dealing with COVID. The best therapeutic for COVID for most people has been dexamethasone (a cheap and readily available steroid) but for whatever reason you have a number of hucksters fixated on these other unproven and potentially dangerous medications.



Your arguments here and elsewhere run on the premise that covid has the same side effects as the vaccines but worse. If this is true, why does JnJ cause different side effects than Moderna and Pfizer?


False. COVID causes damage to a variety of different organs and causes a variety of different conditions so it's not just about severity and rates. Blood clots are far more common with COVID than AZ and J&J vaccines. Myocarditis is far more common with COVID then mRNA vaccines. The concerns with the vaccines are far more limited than the concerns with COVID itself. The problem is that anti-vaxxers have convinced vaccine hesitant people to pay attention to the relatively rare and less severe problems potentially associated with vaccines and to ignore the more common and more severe conditions associated with COVID.

Literally killing people with misinformation.


What is more dangerous to a healthy 12 year old boy?

The mere existence of covid in his community which he may have already been lightly exposed to, fought it off, and not even realized?

or

Being injected with 100 ug mRNA spike protein vaccine?

One must consider that many healthy people can fight off the virus without symptoms. Young healthy people, such as athletes, are getting myocarditis. I don't believe the same people that get myocarditis from injected mRNA spike protein vaccines are necessarily the same people that would get sick from the virus.
Myocarditis can occur even in asymptomatic COVID infections and we know that it's far more common forllowing COVID infections than the mRNA vaccines. So you are dissembling here but the answer is that at the population level COVID is more dangerous than the vaccines. It's more dangerous for healthy people, for unhealthy people, for people susceptible to myocarditis and other heart problems, and to those who aren't. You just don't want to acknowledge reality.

The NYT reported on this 2 days ago as well.

Quote:

Heart problems following vaccination in the U.S. are uncommon and short-lived, researchers reported.

For every one million Americans immunized with a coronavirus vaccine, about 60 develop temporary heart problems, according to a study published on Wednesday in the journal JAMA.

The complications were all short-lived, the researchers found. And these heart problems are far more common among patients who develop Covid-19, outside experts noted.
...
"We see that these adverse events are leading to very short and unremarkable hospital stays," said Dr. Jeremy Faust, an emergency medicine physician at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston who was not involved in the study. "The same can't be said of hospitalizations for Covid-19 in this or any age group so far."

"When people are hospitalized for Covid, the consequences are far more severe," added Dr. Faust, who has compared rates of myocarditis following vaccination to those among Covid-19 patients.

There was a study released last May showing how common myocarditis was among Big-10 athletes when tested for it, so this is nothing new. Fortunately, in the vast majority of cases people fully recover from myocarditis, whether it's post-COVID or post-vaccine. And it appears that following vaccination, cases that do occur tend to be milder. This is something that people should pay attention to but people like you are blowing it way out of proportion because it's one of the few tangible things you can point to in order to wage your war against vaccines.




Before I read the nyt article, which I will, I just want to clarify that I am not waging a war against vaccines. I am not sure why you would think that way. I am "waging a war" against lack of covid 19 vaccine choice and stifling of covid 19 vaccine development in the U.S. I think BP is trying to develop their own safer vaccines while holding back other techs.
You are waging a war of misinformation. You may think your agenda is what you just stated, but you are using textbook anti-vax methods to encourage hesitancy. You report on every negative piece of information you can find, even if you know it's garbage. Those vaccines have already saved hundreds of thousands of lives in this country from the real threat - COVID.

You clearly have no objectivity here, as evidenced by your irrational position on big pharma. I call it irrational because you support other vaccines that big pharma was trying to create (like Merck and Sanofi/GSK) and you lump Moderna in with big pharma (which it clearly was not at the start of this process).

Time to recognize that you have turned into a run of the mill anti-vaxxer.


Since I am being accused of reporting on every negative piece of information I find, I might as well actually do so for once. Normally, I wouldn't post this unverified information.

https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/some-actual-news?r=m7jq6&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email&utm_source=twitter

Covid vaccine maker Moderna received 300,000 reports of side effects after vaccinations over a three-month period following the launch of its shot, according to an internal report from a company that helps Moderna manage the reports.

That figure is far higher than the number of side effect reports about Moderna's vaccine publicly available in the federal system that tracks such adverse events.
This is entirely consistent with your misinformation campaign - you know very well that an internal statement by a pharmacovigilance service provider of 300k reports of side effects are not relevant to this conversation. The fact that the misleading reference comes from the Pandemic's Wrongest Man is all the better. Like you, he is still perfectly happy to grossly misrepresent the VAERS data. You should be ashamed of misleading people by relying on a fraudster but yet you continue to do so.

Unfortunately for you, the more time passes the more evidence we have that the vaccines are safe. As described in this article, there is very little chance of long-term complications from the vaccines and we know that the short term risk is quite low because we have delivered hundreds of millions of doses in this country alone.

With each passing day your flawed campaign becomes more and more disproven and you result to even more desperate attempts to discredit the vaccines. It's only a matter of time before you start quoting that demon sperm doctor lol.
oski003
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Some interesting points. Mrna zealots, please try to focus on countering the message and not the messenger.

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/aug/5/biden-teams-misguided-and-deadly-covid-19-vaccine-/
Ridiculous article and you know it. The authors argue that we should accept that every single person will ultimately get COVID and that the vaccines won't stop that from occurring at this point because the virus is too widespread. I don't disagree with that: through very effective messaging and misinformation, one side of our society ensured that we would be in this position. The consistent opposition to all public health measures has prevented us from coming anywhere close to eradicating the virus and has resulted in the loss of over 600k lives so far, with tens of thousands still to come. The vaccines haven't caused any excess deaths.

What I disagree with is their complete misrepresentation of the risks associated with COVID. If you accept that you will either get the vaccine or COCID (and possibly both!), then you need to evaluate the risks of COVID with the risks of the vaccine and no credible person has said that the vaccine is riskier to any individual than COVID. Yet, Malone and Navarro state the following: "For much of the rest of the population, there's nothing to fear but fear of the virus itself."

If anyone is worried about any side effects from the mRNA vaccines, they should be absolutely terrified of COVID because it's much worse.

Bonus points that they continue to advocate for HCQ and Ivermectin despite the fact that there has been more evidence of fraud in promoting those drugs than there has been in their effectiveness in fighting COVID, particularly as a propyhlactic. The Ivermectin research in particular is garbage - the flagship study was pretty much a cut and paste affair from other work, with execrable methodologies, and has since been withdrawn. There is no way Robert Malone would ever take Ivermectin and you can bet your bottom dollar that Lindsay Graham is on monoclonal antibodies and dexamethasone and hasn't come anywhere close to HCQ or Ivermectin, nor has any other prominent Republican, pillow retailer, Fox News host or any other prominent person when dealing with COVID. The best therapeutic for COVID for most people has been dexamethasone (a cheap and readily available steroid) but for whatever reason you have a number of hucksters fixated on these other unproven and potentially dangerous medications.



Your arguments here and elsewhere run on the premise that covid has the same side effects as the vaccines but worse. If this is true, why does JnJ cause different side effects than Moderna and Pfizer?


False. COVID causes damage to a variety of different organs and causes a variety of different conditions so it's not just about severity and rates. Blood clots are far more common with COVID than AZ and J&J vaccines. Myocarditis is far more common with COVID then mRNA vaccines. The concerns with the vaccines are far more limited than the concerns with COVID itself. The problem is that anti-vaxxers have convinced vaccine hesitant people to pay attention to the relatively rare and less severe problems potentially associated with vaccines and to ignore the more common and more severe conditions associated with COVID.

Literally killing people with misinformation.


What is more dangerous to a healthy 12 year old boy?

The mere existence of covid in his community which he may have already been lightly exposed to, fought it off, and not even realized?

or

Being injected with 100 ug mRNA spike protein vaccine?

One must consider that many healthy people can fight off the virus without symptoms. Young healthy people, such as athletes, are getting myocarditis. I don't believe the same people that get myocarditis from injected mRNA spike protein vaccines are necessarily the same people that would get sick from the virus.
Myocarditis can occur even in asymptomatic COVID infections and we know that it's far more common forllowing COVID infections than the mRNA vaccines. So you are dissembling here but the answer is that at the population level COVID is more dangerous than the vaccines. It's more dangerous for healthy people, for unhealthy people, for people susceptible to myocarditis and other heart problems, and to those who aren't. You just don't want to acknowledge reality.

The NYT reported on this 2 days ago as well.

Quote:

Heart problems following vaccination in the U.S. are uncommon and short-lived, researchers reported.

For every one million Americans immunized with a coronavirus vaccine, about 60 develop temporary heart problems, according to a study published on Wednesday in the journal JAMA.

The complications were all short-lived, the researchers found. And these heart problems are far more common among patients who develop Covid-19, outside experts noted.
...
"We see that these adverse events are leading to very short and unremarkable hospital stays," said Dr. Jeremy Faust, an emergency medicine physician at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston who was not involved in the study. "The same can't be said of hospitalizations for Covid-19 in this or any age group so far."

"When people are hospitalized for Covid, the consequences are far more severe," added Dr. Faust, who has compared rates of myocarditis following vaccination to those among Covid-19 patients.

There was a study released last May showing how common myocarditis was among Big-10 athletes when tested for it, so this is nothing new. Fortunately, in the vast majority of cases people fully recover from myocarditis, whether it's post-COVID or post-vaccine. And it appears that following vaccination, cases that do occur tend to be milder. This is something that people should pay attention to but people like you are blowing it way out of proportion because it's one of the few tangible things you can point to in order to wage your war against vaccines.




Before I read the nyt article, which I will, I just want to clarify that I am not waging a war against vaccines. I am not sure why you would think that way. I am "waging a war" against lack of covid 19 vaccine choice and stifling of covid 19 vaccine development in the U.S. I think BP is trying to develop their own safer vaccines while holding back other techs.
You are waging a war of misinformation. You may think your agenda is what you just stated, but you are using textbook anti-vax methods to encourage hesitancy. You report on every negative piece of information you can find, even if you know it's garbage. Those vaccines have already saved hundreds of thousands of lives in this country from the real threat - COVID.

You clearly have no objectivity here, as evidenced by your irrational position on big pharma. I call it irrational because you support other vaccines that big pharma was trying to create (like Merck and Sanofi/GSK) and you lump Moderna in with big pharma (which it clearly was not at the start of this process).

Time to recognize that you have turned into a run of the mill anti-vaxxer.


Since I am being accused of reporting on every negative piece of information I find, I might as well actually do so for once. Normally, I wouldn't post this unverified information.

https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/some-actual-news?r=m7jq6&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email&utm_source=twitter

Covid vaccine maker Moderna received 300,000 reports of side effects after vaccinations over a three-month period following the launch of its shot, according to an internal report from a company that helps Moderna manage the reports.

That figure is far higher than the number of side effect reports about Moderna's vaccine publicly available in the federal system that tracks such adverse events.
This is entirely consistent with your misinformation campaign - you know very well that an internal statement by a pharmacovigilance service provider of 300k reports of side effects are not relevant to this conversation. The fact that the misleading reference comes from the Pandemic's Wrongest Man is all the better. Like you, he is still perfectly happy to grossly misrepresent the VAERS data. You should be ashamed of misleading people by relying on a fraudster but yet you continue to do so.

Unfortunately for you, the more time passes the more evidence we have that the vaccines are safe. As described in this article, there is very little chance of long-term complications from the vaccines and we know that the short term risk is quite low because we have delivered hundreds of millions of doses in this country alone.

With each passing day your flawed campaign becomes more and more disproven and you result to even more desperate attempts to discredit the vaccines. It's only a matter of time before you start quoting that demon sperm doctor lol.



I just posted that to piss you off and demonstrate things I normally wouldn't post since you accused me of being an anti-vaxxer who posted every piece of anti-vaxx info I came across. You are making me laugh with your hysteria.
sycasey
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Some interesting points. Mrna zealots, please try to focus on countering the message and not the messenger.

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/aug/5/biden-teams-misguided-and-deadly-covid-19-vaccine-/
Ridiculous article and you know it. The authors argue that we should accept that every single person will ultimately get COVID and that the vaccines won't stop that from occurring at this point because the virus is too widespread. I don't disagree with that: through very effective messaging and misinformation, one side of our society ensured that we would be in this position. The consistent opposition to all public health measures has prevented us from coming anywhere close to eradicating the virus and has resulted in the loss of over 600k lives so far, with tens of thousands still to come. The vaccines haven't caused any excess deaths.

What I disagree with is their complete misrepresentation of the risks associated with COVID. If you accept that you will either get the vaccine or COCID (and possibly both!), then you need to evaluate the risks of COVID with the risks of the vaccine and no credible person has said that the vaccine is riskier to any individual than COVID. Yet, Malone and Navarro state the following: "For much of the rest of the population, there's nothing to fear but fear of the virus itself."

If anyone is worried about any side effects from the mRNA vaccines, they should be absolutely terrified of COVID because it's much worse.

Bonus points that they continue to advocate for HCQ and Ivermectin despite the fact that there has been more evidence of fraud in promoting those drugs than there has been in their effectiveness in fighting COVID, particularly as a propyhlactic. The Ivermectin research in particular is garbage - the flagship study was pretty much a cut and paste affair from other work, with execrable methodologies, and has since been withdrawn. There is no way Robert Malone would ever take Ivermectin and you can bet your bottom dollar that Lindsay Graham is on monoclonal antibodies and dexamethasone and hasn't come anywhere close to HCQ or Ivermectin, nor has any other prominent Republican, pillow retailer, Fox News host or any other prominent person when dealing with COVID. The best therapeutic for COVID for most people has been dexamethasone (a cheap and readily available steroid) but for whatever reason you have a number of hucksters fixated on these other unproven and potentially dangerous medications.



Your arguments here and elsewhere run on the premise that covid has the same side effects as the vaccines but worse. If this is true, why does JnJ cause different side effects than Moderna and Pfizer?


False. COVID causes damage to a variety of different organs and causes a variety of different conditions so it's not just about severity and rates. Blood clots are far more common with COVID than AZ and J&J vaccines. Myocarditis is far more common with COVID then mRNA vaccines. The concerns with the vaccines are far more limited than the concerns with COVID itself. The problem is that anti-vaxxers have convinced vaccine hesitant people to pay attention to the relatively rare and less severe problems potentially associated with vaccines and to ignore the more common and more severe conditions associated with COVID.

Literally killing people with misinformation.


What is more dangerous to a healthy 12 year old boy?

The mere existence of covid in his community which he may have already been lightly exposed to, fought it off, and not even realized?

or

Being injected with 100 ug mRNA spike protein vaccine?

One must consider that many healthy people can fight off the virus without symptoms. Young healthy people, such as athletes, are getting myocarditis. I don't believe the same people that get myocarditis from injected mRNA spike protein vaccines are necessarily the same people that would get sick from the virus.
Myocarditis can occur even in asymptomatic COVID infections and we know that it's far more common forllowing COVID infections than the mRNA vaccines. So you are dissembling here but the answer is that at the population level COVID is more dangerous than the vaccines. It's more dangerous for healthy people, for unhealthy people, for people susceptible to myocarditis and other heart problems, and to those who aren't. You just don't want to acknowledge reality.

The NYT reported on this 2 days ago as well.

Quote:

Heart problems following vaccination in the U.S. are uncommon and short-lived, researchers reported.

For every one million Americans immunized with a coronavirus vaccine, about 60 develop temporary heart problems, according to a study published on Wednesday in the journal JAMA.

The complications were all short-lived, the researchers found. And these heart problems are far more common among patients who develop Covid-19, outside experts noted.
...
"We see that these adverse events are leading to very short and unremarkable hospital stays," said Dr. Jeremy Faust, an emergency medicine physician at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston who was not involved in the study. "The same can't be said of hospitalizations for Covid-19 in this or any age group so far."

"When people are hospitalized for Covid, the consequences are far more severe," added Dr. Faust, who has compared rates of myocarditis following vaccination to those among Covid-19 patients.

There was a study released last May showing how common myocarditis was among Big-10 athletes when tested for it, so this is nothing new. Fortunately, in the vast majority of cases people fully recover from myocarditis, whether it's post-COVID or post-vaccine. And it appears that following vaccination, cases that do occur tend to be milder. This is something that people should pay attention to but people like you are blowing it way out of proportion because it's one of the few tangible things you can point to in order to wage your war against vaccines.




Before I read the nyt article, which I will, I just want to clarify that I am not waging a war against vaccines. I am not sure why you would think that way. I am "waging a war" against lack of covid 19 vaccine choice and stifling of covid 19 vaccine development in the U.S. I think BP is trying to develop their own safer vaccines while holding back other techs.
You are waging a war of misinformation. You may think your agenda is what you just stated, but you are using textbook anti-vax methods to encourage hesitancy. You report on every negative piece of information you can find, even if you know it's garbage. Those vaccines have already saved hundreds of thousands of lives in this country from the real threat - COVID.

You clearly have no objectivity here, as evidenced by your irrational position on big pharma. I call it irrational because you support other vaccines that big pharma was trying to create (like Merck and Sanofi/GSK) and you lump Moderna in with big pharma (which it clearly was not at the start of this process).

Time to recognize that you have turned into a run of the mill anti-vaxxer.


Since I am being accused of reporting on every negative piece of information I find, I might as well actually do so for once. Normally, I wouldn't post this unverified information.

https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/some-actual-news?r=m7jq6&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email&utm_source=twitter

Covid vaccine maker Moderna received 300,000 reports of side effects after vaccinations over a three-month period following the launch of its shot, according to an internal report from a company that helps Moderna manage the reports.

That figure is far higher than the number of side effect reports about Moderna's vaccine publicly available in the federal system that tracks such adverse events.
This is entirely consistent with your misinformation campaign - you know very well that an internal statement by a pharmacovigilance service provider of 300k reports of side effects are not relevant to this conversation. The fact that the misleading reference comes from the Pandemic's Wrongest Man is all the better. Like you, he is still perfectly happy to grossly misrepresent the VAERS data. You should be ashamed of misleading people by relying on a fraudster but yet you continue to do so.
I saw Alex Berenson's name and just scrolled on by. No need to click on that junk.
Zippergate
How long do you want to ignore this user?
"95% of the severe patients are vaccinated". "85-90% of the hospitalizations are in Fully vaccinated people." "We are opening more and more COVID wards." "The effectiveness of the vaccine is waning/fading out"



Those are higher percentages than the percentage of the population that has been vaxxed. This is evidence of ADE. At the very least, one can say that the Pfizer vaccine loses much of its effectiveness after six months.

dimitrig
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oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Some interesting points. Mrna zealots, please try to focus on countering the message and not the messenger.

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/aug/5/biden-teams-misguided-and-deadly-covid-19-vaccine-/
Ridiculous article and you know it. The authors argue that we should accept that every single person will ultimately get COVID and that the vaccines won't stop that from occurring at this point because the virus is too widespread. I don't disagree with that: through very effective messaging and misinformation, one side of our society ensured that we would be in this position. The consistent opposition to all public health measures has prevented us from coming anywhere close to eradicating the virus and has resulted in the loss of over 600k lives so far, with tens of thousands still to come. The vaccines haven't caused any excess deaths.

What I disagree with is their complete misrepresentation of the risks associated with COVID. If you accept that you will either get the vaccine or COCID (and possibly both!), then you need to evaluate the risks of COVID with the risks of the vaccine and no credible person has said that the vaccine is riskier to any individual than COVID. Yet, Malone and Navarro state the following: "For much of the rest of the population, there's nothing to fear but fear of the virus itself."

If anyone is worried about any side effects from the mRNA vaccines, they should be absolutely terrified of COVID because it's much worse.

Bonus points that they continue to advocate for HCQ and Ivermectin despite the fact that there has been more evidence of fraud in promoting those drugs than there has been in their effectiveness in fighting COVID, particularly as a propyhlactic. The Ivermectin research in particular is garbage - the flagship study was pretty much a cut and paste affair from other work, with execrable methodologies, and has since been withdrawn. There is no way Robert Malone would ever take Ivermectin and you can bet your bottom dollar that Lindsay Graham is on monoclonal antibodies and dexamethasone and hasn't come anywhere close to HCQ or Ivermectin, nor has any other prominent Republican, pillow retailer, Fox News host or any other prominent person when dealing with COVID. The best therapeutic for COVID for most people has been dexamethasone (a cheap and readily available steroid) but for whatever reason you have a number of hucksters fixated on these other unproven and potentially dangerous medications.



Your arguments here and elsewhere run on the premise that covid has the same side effects as the vaccines but worse. If this is true, why does JnJ cause different side effects than Moderna and Pfizer?


False. COVID causes damage to a variety of different organs and causes a variety of different conditions so it's not just about severity and rates. Blood clots are far more common with COVID than AZ and J&J vaccines. Myocarditis is far more common with COVID then mRNA vaccines. The concerns with the vaccines are far more limited than the concerns with COVID itself. The problem is that anti-vaxxers have convinced vaccine hesitant people to pay attention to the relatively rare and less severe problems potentially associated with vaccines and to ignore the more common and more severe conditions associated with COVID.

Literally killing people with misinformation.


What is more dangerous to a healthy 12 year old boy?

The mere existence of covid in his community which he may have already been lightly exposed to, fought it off, and not even realized?

or

Being injected with 100 ug mRNA spike protein vaccine?

One must consider that many healthy people can fight off the virus without symptoms. Young healthy people, such as athletes, are getting myocarditis. I don't believe the same people that get myocarditis from injected mRNA spike protein vaccines are necessarily the same people that would get sick from the virus.
Myocarditis can occur even in asymptomatic COVID infections and we know that it's far more common forllowing COVID infections than the mRNA vaccines. So you are dissembling here but the answer is that at the population level COVID is more dangerous than the vaccines. It's more dangerous for healthy people, for unhealthy people, for people susceptible to myocarditis and other heart problems, and to those who aren't. You just don't want to acknowledge reality.

The NYT reported on this 2 days ago as well.

Quote:

Heart problems following vaccination in the U.S. are uncommon and short-lived, researchers reported.

For every one million Americans immunized with a coronavirus vaccine, about 60 develop temporary heart problems, according to a study published on Wednesday in the journal JAMA.

The complications were all short-lived, the researchers found. And these heart problems are far more common among patients who develop Covid-19, outside experts noted.
...
"We see that these adverse events are leading to very short and unremarkable hospital stays," said Dr. Jeremy Faust, an emergency medicine physician at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston who was not involved in the study. "The same can't be said of hospitalizations for Covid-19 in this or any age group so far."

"When people are hospitalized for Covid, the consequences are far more severe," added Dr. Faust, who has compared rates of myocarditis following vaccination to those among Covid-19 patients.

There was a study released last May showing how common myocarditis was among Big-10 athletes when tested for it, so this is nothing new. Fortunately, in the vast majority of cases people fully recover from myocarditis, whether it's post-COVID or post-vaccine. And it appears that following vaccination, cases that do occur tend to be milder. This is something that people should pay attention to but people like you are blowing it way out of proportion because it's one of the few tangible things you can point to in order to wage your war against vaccines.




Before I read the nyt article, which I will, I just want to clarify that I am not waging a war against vaccines. I am not sure why you would think that way. I am "waging a war" against lack of covid 19 vaccine choice and stifling of covid 19 vaccine development in the U.S. I think BP is trying to develop their own safer vaccines while holding back other techs.
You are waging a war of misinformation. You may think your agenda is what you just stated, but you are using textbook anti-vax methods to encourage hesitancy. You report on every negative piece of information you can find, even if you know it's garbage. Those vaccines have already saved hundreds of thousands of lives in this country from the real threat - COVID.

You clearly have no objectivity here, as evidenced by your irrational position on big pharma. I call it irrational because you support other vaccines that big pharma was trying to create (like Merck and Sanofi/GSK) and you lump Moderna in with big pharma (which it clearly was not at the start of this process).

Time to recognize that you have turned into a run of the mill anti-vaxxer.


Since I am being accused of reporting on every negative piece of information I find, I might as well actually do so for once. Normally, I wouldn't post this unverified information.

https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/some-actual-news?r=m7jq6&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email&utm_source=twitter

Covid vaccine maker Moderna received 300,000 reports of side effects after vaccinations over a three-month period following the launch of its shot, according to an internal report from a company that helps Moderna manage the reports.

That figure is far higher than the number of side effect reports about Moderna's vaccine publicly available in the federal system that tracks such adverse events.

My 64 year old neighbor (a physician) got the Pfizer vaccine in March. In early July he suddenly collapsed and died at home from an aneurysm.

Did it have anything to do with the vaccine? Probably not, but how would one prove it?

"But even the largest clinical trials are not designed to detect extremely rare side effects, which might occur in fewer than one case per 10,000 vaccinations. Because hundreds of millions of people are now being vaccinated against COVID-19, it makes sense that even very rare events such as severe allergic reactions or blood clots will start to appear in safety reports, Bastian says. The challenge now is to work out which of these events are actually linked to the vaccine."

(Source: Why is it so hard to investigate the rare side effects of COVID vaccines?)









Unit2Sucks
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dimitrig said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Some interesting points. Mrna zealots, please try to focus on countering the message and not the messenger.

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/aug/5/biden-teams-misguided-and-deadly-covid-19-vaccine-/
Ridiculous article and you know it. The authors argue that we should accept that every single person will ultimately get COVID and that the vaccines won't stop that from occurring at this point because the virus is too widespread. I don't disagree with that: through very effective messaging and misinformation, one side of our society ensured that we would be in this position. The consistent opposition to all public health measures has prevented us from coming anywhere close to eradicating the virus and has resulted in the loss of over 600k lives so far, with tens of thousands still to come. The vaccines haven't caused any excess deaths.

What I disagree with is their complete misrepresentation of the risks associated with COVID. If you accept that you will either get the vaccine or COCID (and possibly both!), then you need to evaluate the risks of COVID with the risks of the vaccine and no credible person has said that the vaccine is riskier to any individual than COVID. Yet, Malone and Navarro state the following: "For much of the rest of the population, there's nothing to fear but fear of the virus itself."

If anyone is worried about any side effects from the mRNA vaccines, they should be absolutely terrified of COVID because it's much worse.

Bonus points that they continue to advocate for HCQ and Ivermectin despite the fact that there has been more evidence of fraud in promoting those drugs than there has been in their effectiveness in fighting COVID, particularly as a propyhlactic. The Ivermectin research in particular is garbage - the flagship study was pretty much a cut and paste affair from other work, with execrable methodologies, and has since been withdrawn. There is no way Robert Malone would ever take Ivermectin and you can bet your bottom dollar that Lindsay Graham is on monoclonal antibodies and dexamethasone and hasn't come anywhere close to HCQ or Ivermectin, nor has any other prominent Republican, pillow retailer, Fox News host or any other prominent person when dealing with COVID. The best therapeutic for COVID for most people has been dexamethasone (a cheap and readily available steroid) but for whatever reason you have a number of hucksters fixated on these other unproven and potentially dangerous medications.



Your arguments here and elsewhere run on the premise that covid has the same side effects as the vaccines but worse. If this is true, why does JnJ cause different side effects than Moderna and Pfizer?


False. COVID causes damage to a variety of different organs and causes a variety of different conditions so it's not just about severity and rates. Blood clots are far more common with COVID than AZ and J&J vaccines. Myocarditis is far more common with COVID then mRNA vaccines. The concerns with the vaccines are far more limited than the concerns with COVID itself. The problem is that anti-vaxxers have convinced vaccine hesitant people to pay attention to the relatively rare and less severe problems potentially associated with vaccines and to ignore the more common and more severe conditions associated with COVID.

Literally killing people with misinformation.


What is more dangerous to a healthy 12 year old boy?

The mere existence of covid in his community which he may have already been lightly exposed to, fought it off, and not even realized?

or

Being injected with 100 ug mRNA spike protein vaccine?

One must consider that many healthy people can fight off the virus without symptoms. Young healthy people, such as athletes, are getting myocarditis. I don't believe the same people that get myocarditis from injected mRNA spike protein vaccines are necessarily the same people that would get sick from the virus.
Myocarditis can occur even in asymptomatic COVID infections and we know that it's far more common forllowing COVID infections than the mRNA vaccines. So you are dissembling here but the answer is that at the population level COVID is more dangerous than the vaccines. It's more dangerous for healthy people, for unhealthy people, for people susceptible to myocarditis and other heart problems, and to those who aren't. You just don't want to acknowledge reality.

The NYT reported on this 2 days ago as well.

Quote:

Heart problems following vaccination in the U.S. are uncommon and short-lived, researchers reported.

For every one million Americans immunized with a coronavirus vaccine, about 60 develop temporary heart problems, according to a study published on Wednesday in the journal JAMA.

The complications were all short-lived, the researchers found. And these heart problems are far more common among patients who develop Covid-19, outside experts noted.
...
"We see that these adverse events are leading to very short and unremarkable hospital stays," said Dr. Jeremy Faust, an emergency medicine physician at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston who was not involved in the study. "The same can't be said of hospitalizations for Covid-19 in this or any age group so far."

"When people are hospitalized for Covid, the consequences are far more severe," added Dr. Faust, who has compared rates of myocarditis following vaccination to those among Covid-19 patients.

There was a study released last May showing how common myocarditis was among Big-10 athletes when tested for it, so this is nothing new. Fortunately, in the vast majority of cases people fully recover from myocarditis, whether it's post-COVID or post-vaccine. And it appears that following vaccination, cases that do occur tend to be milder. This is something that people should pay attention to but people like you are blowing it way out of proportion because it's one of the few tangible things you can point to in order to wage your war against vaccines.




Before I read the nyt article, which I will, I just want to clarify that I am not waging a war against vaccines. I am not sure why you would think that way. I am "waging a war" against lack of covid 19 vaccine choice and stifling of covid 19 vaccine development in the U.S. I think BP is trying to develop their own safer vaccines while holding back other techs.
You are waging a war of misinformation. You may think your agenda is what you just stated, but you are using textbook anti-vax methods to encourage hesitancy. You report on every negative piece of information you can find, even if you know it's garbage. Those vaccines have already saved hundreds of thousands of lives in this country from the real threat - COVID.

You clearly have no objectivity here, as evidenced by your irrational position on big pharma. I call it irrational because you support other vaccines that big pharma was trying to create (like Merck and Sanofi/GSK) and you lump Moderna in with big pharma (which it clearly was not at the start of this process).

Time to recognize that you have turned into a run of the mill anti-vaxxer.


Since I am being accused of reporting on every negative piece of information I find, I might as well actually do so for once. Normally, I wouldn't post this unverified information.

https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/some-actual-news?r=m7jq6&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email&utm_source=twitter

Covid vaccine maker Moderna received 300,000 reports of side effects after vaccinations over a three-month period following the launch of its shot, according to an internal report from a company that helps Moderna manage the reports.

That figure is far higher than the number of side effect reports about Moderna's vaccine publicly available in the federal system that tracks such adverse events.

My 64 year old neighbor (a physician) got the Pfizer vaccine in March. In early July he suddenly collapsed and died at home from an aneurysm.

Did it have anything to do with the vaccine? Probably not, but how would one prove it?

"But even the largest clinical trials are not designed to detect extremely rare side effects, which might occur in fewer than one case per 10,000 vaccinations. Because hundreds of millions of people are now being vaccinated against COVID-19, it makes sense that even very rare events such as severe allergic reactions or blood clots will start to appear in safety reports, Bastian says. The challenge now is to work out which of these events are actually linked to the vaccine."

(Source: Why is it so hard to investigate the rare side effects of COVID vaccines?)




I have a similar story about a young person but it was a few months after a mild COVID case. That's why excess deaths are a good measure of the death toll of the pandemic. Sorry to hear about your neighbor, 64 is too young to die.
Zippergate
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I know, I know, some scientists are more equal than others.
bearister
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Republicans treated Covid like a bioweapon. Then it turned against them


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/07/republicans-treated-covid-like-bioweapon-turned-against-them?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
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Unit2Sucks
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Maybe we can use this thread to point out the needless deaths of anti-vaxxers.







When will we run out of these stories?
bearister
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But at least they died doing what they loved: Taking science advice from tRump and Laura Ingraham.
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oski003
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I am hearing about a lot of cases of young healthy people falling seriously ill to covid, in numbers proportionally larger than the first wave. I believe it would be wise to get my young children whatever vaccine the doctors recommend, which will likely be Pfizer at the rate the trials are going, despite the concerns I have previously posted.
bearister
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"The risk level was raised after the seven-day moving average for new hospital admissions increased more than 600% in the past month, while patients in intensive-care units jumped 570%. Covid patients on ventilators surged to 102 as of Saturday from just eight on July 4, the health department said. More may follow as cases in the Austin area increased 10 times.

He also singled out Texas, along with Florida, as the two states that are "are accounting for a very disproportionately high proportion -- something like 40% of the infections."

Texas, with a population of about 29 million, has 439 ICU beds available -- and 6,991 ventilators. The Houston area, with a population of 6.7 million, has just 41 ICU beds remaining. The greater Dallas area, which has more than 8 million people, has 110 ICU beds available."





U.S. City With 2.4 Million Population Has Just Six ICU Beds Left


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-08/austin-with-just-six-icu-beds-left-warns-of-dire-covid-state
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Unit2Sucks
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oski003 said:

I am hearing about a lot of cases of young healthy people falling seriously ill to covid, in numbers proportionally larger than the first wave. I believe it would be wise to get my young children whatever vaccine the doctors recommend, which will likely be Pfizer at the rate the trials are going, despite the concerns I have previously posted.


Still a few months before you have any decisions to make. If we had better vaccine uptake from adults we might never have been in this situation oh never mind.
okaydo
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bearister
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Pediatric COVID hospitalizations soar - Axios


https://www.axios.com/pediatric-covid-hospitalizations-soar-52f8151d-8a2e-4bde-a671-f815a7dfd3ab.html


Greene suspended from Twitter for a WEEK saying vaccines are 'failing'



https://mol.im/a/9880035

*Read the comments to the story. There is only one takeaway: The Deplorables are too stupid to live.
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sycasey
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bearister said:

Pediatric COVID hospitalizations soar - Axios


https://www.axios.com/pediatric-covid-hospitalizations-soar-52f8151d-8a2e-4bde-a671-f815a7dfd3ab.html
Thread:

oski003
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oski003 said:

Read the nyt article. Two comments.

1) JAMA says 57 per 100k. Not per 1,000,000. Is NYT wrong or am I misanalyzing the JAMA data?

2) you say the myocarditis is not serious based on the nyt data because it implies that 13 out of 19 vaccine induced myocarditis patients leave the hospital within 3 weeks. Is that the kind of bar you want to set for seriousness? Are you for real? Vaccines shouldn't harm people this way.


Just curious since I posted this last week. Does anyone know why the NYT said 57/1 million while the JAMA study appeared to say 57/100k. Please either correct my interpretation of the JAMA study or correct the article misreading the statistics and arguing based on such.
Unit2Sucks
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oski003 said:

oski003 said:

Read the nyt article. Two comments.

1) JAMA says 57 per 100k. Not per 1,000,000. Is NYT wrong or am I misanalyzing the JAMA data?

2) you say the myocarditis is not serious based on the nyt data because it implies that 13 out of 19 vaccine induced myocarditis patients leave the hospital within 3 weeks. Is that the kind of bar you want to set for seriousness? Are you for real? Vaccines shouldn't harm people this way.


Just curious since I posted this last week. Does anyone know why the NYT said 57/1 million while the JAMA study appeared to say 57/100k. Please either correct my interpretation of the JAMA study or correct the article misreading the statistics and arguing based on such.


Can you show me where the study shows 57/100k? It's a 2 million subject study and there were 20 cases of myocarditis and 37 cases of pericarditis.

As for your other point, I agree it would be ideal if there were no adverse events associated with any vaccines. But as serious adverse events go, even if you assume all of these cases are caused by the vaccine, the vast majority of these cases resolve fully very quickly (within days, not weeks). There is no reason to believe that anyone is at a higher risk of myocarditis from the vaccine than they are from COVID itself and it appears that COVID isn't going away anytime soon.

Team anti-vaxxer isn't exactly helping in that regard and people like you spreading misinformation online are making it more likely that kids will need to be vaccinated to protect themselves from a virus that the adults failed to control.
oski003
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Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

oski003 said:

Read the nyt article. Two comments.

1) JAMA says 57 per 100k. Not per 1,000,000. Is NYT wrong or am I misanalyzing the JAMA data?

2) you say the myocarditis is not serious based on the nyt data because it implies that 13 out of 19 vaccine induced myocarditis patients leave the hospital within 3 weeks. Is that the kind of bar you want to set for seriousness? Are you for real? Vaccines shouldn't harm people this way.


Just curious since I posted this last week. Does anyone know why the NYT said 57/1 million while the JAMA study appeared to say 57/100k. Please either correct my interpretation of the JAMA study or correct the article misreading the statistics and arguing based on such.


Can you show me where the study shows 57/100k? It's a 2 million subject study and there were 20 cases of myocarditis and 37 cases of pericarditis.

As for your other point, I agree it would be ideal if there were no adverse events associated with any vaccines. But as serious adverse events go, even if you assume all of these cases are caused by the vaccine, the vast majority of these cases resolve fully very quickly (within days, not weeks). There is no reason to believe that anyone is at a higher risk of myocarditis from the vaccine than they are from COVID itself and it appears that COVID isn't going away anytime soon.

Team anti-vaxxer isn't exactly helping in that regard and people like you spreading misinformation online are making it more likely that kids will need to be vaccinated to protect themselves from a virus that the adults failed to control.


Team zealot isn't helping either. Look at the study as it is posted above and has been for days. Will copy and paste from it anyway on next post.
smh
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Quote:

PHOENIX (3TV/CBS 5) -- Four-year old Joriah Winn was pretty excited about his first day of school.

Now, he's cooped up at home with Covid-19, according to his parents Jamie and Adam Winn. "I have not touched my son, hugged my son, kissed my son," said Jamie. "I have not even been within 15 feet of my son since Friday."

Mom and dad said Joriah's first day at school was last Monday at Pride Pre-School, located inside Mountain Pointe High School in Ahwatukee. Everything seemed to go alright, then the school sent out an email stating that someone, who recently tested positive for Covid-19, had been inside the classroom. Four days later, Joriah tested positive for Covid-19, as well..

.. Joriah was wearing a mask in class, but his parents claim most of the other kids were not.
https://ktvz.com/cnn-regional/2021/08/10/4-year-old-tests-positive-for-covid-after-first-day-of-pre-school/
oski003
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Read it again. Nyt correct. Now, I will push back on the person misreading the JAMA study. This is the place I discuss this stuff. I don't tweet etc...
Unit2Sucks
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oski003 said:

Read it again. Nyt correct. Now, I will push back on the person misreading the JAMA study. This is the place I discuss this stuff. I don't tweet etc...


Not sure I follow. Didn't you just admit that you misread the study?

EDIT: I should have also addressed this more specifically:

You said:
Quote:

you say the myocarditis is not serious based on the nyt data because it implies that 13 out of 19 vaccine induced myocarditis patients leave the hospital within 3 weeks.
The JAMA paper says this:

Quote:

Nineteen patients (95%; 95% CI, 76%-99%) were admitted to the hospital. All were discharged after a median of 2 days (IQR, 2-3 days). There were no readmissions or deaths. Two patients received a second vaccination after onset of myocarditis; neither had worsening of symptoms. At last available follow-up (median, 23.5 days [IQR, 4.8-41.3 days] after symptom onset), 13 patients (65%; 95% CI, 43%-82%) had symptom resolution and 7 (35%; 95% CI, 18%-57%) were improving.
So the median hospital time was 2 days. No one died and only 7 out of 2 million vaccinated individuals in the study showed any symptoms of myocarditis after 3 weeks. I don't want to minimize the fact that 19 out of 2 million had to spend a few nights in the hospital, but EVEN IF if were the case that 100% of these cases were directly resulting from mRNA and wouldn't happen with COVID, it's a very small risk. The way you stated the facts is extremely misleading and meant to cause alarm. Similar to whoever decided to print 57 out of 100k when the myocarditis number is actually 1 out of 100k (or 3 out of 100k when you include pericarditis). Right now more than 1,400 children are hospitalized with COVID - a novel virus with unknown long-term implications. Why are people like you perfectly comfortable rolling the dice with that, but not with the small chance that someone will develop myocarditis that will resolve quickly? The answer is obvious - this isn't about health and safety but about a crusade.


oski003
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Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Read it again. Nyt correct. Now, I will push back on the person misreading the JAMA study. This is the place I discuss this stuff. I don't tweet etc...


Not sure I follow. Didn't you just admit that you misread the study?

EDIT: I should have also addressed this more specifically:

You said:
Quote:

you say the myocarditis is not serious based on the nyt data because it implies that 13 out of 19 vaccine induced myocarditis patients leave the hospital within 3 weeks.
The JAMA paper says this:

Quote:

Nineteen patients (95%; 95% CI, 76%-99%) were admitted to the hospital. All were discharged after a median of 2 days (IQR, 2-3 days). There were no readmissions or deaths. Two patients received a second vaccination after onset of myocarditis; neither had worsening of symptoms. At last available follow-up (median, 23.5 days [IQR, 4.8-41.3 days] after symptom onset), 13 patients (65%; 95% CI, 43%-82%) had symptom resolution and 7 (35%; 95% CI, 18%-57%) were improving.
So the median hospital time was 2 days. No one died and only 7 out of 2 million vaccinated individuals in the study showed any symptoms of myocarditis after 3 weeks. I don't want to minimize the fact that 19 out of 2 million had to spend a few nights in the hospital, but EVEN IF if were the case that 100% of these cases were directly resulting from mRNA and wouldn't happen with COVID, it's a very small risk. The way you stated the facts is extremely misleading and meant to cause alarm. Similar to whoever decided to print 57 out of 100k when the myocarditis number is actually 1 out of 100k (or 3 out of 100k when you include pericarditis). Right now more than 1,400 children are hospitalized with COVID - a novel virus with unknown long-term implications. Why are people like you perfectly comfortable rolling the dice with that, but not with the small chance that someone will develop myocarditis that will resolve quickly? The answer is obvious - this isn't about health and safety but about a crusade.




Zealot, take some reading comprehension classes or at least learn to listen.
Unit2Sucks
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oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Read it again. Nyt correct. Now, I will push back on the person misreading the JAMA study. This is the place I discuss this stuff. I don't tweet etc...


Not sure I follow. Didn't you just admit that you misread the study?

EDIT: I should have also addressed this more specifically:

You said:
Quote:

you say the myocarditis is not serious based on the nyt data because it implies that 13 out of 19 vaccine induced myocarditis patients leave the hospital within 3 weeks.
The JAMA paper says this:

Quote:

Nineteen patients (95%; 95% CI, 76%-99%) were admitted to the hospital. All were discharged after a median of 2 days (IQR, 2-3 days). There were no readmissions or deaths. Two patients received a second vaccination after onset of myocarditis; neither had worsening of symptoms. At last available follow-up (median, 23.5 days [IQR, 4.8-41.3 days] after symptom onset), 13 patients (65%; 95% CI, 43%-82%) had symptom resolution and 7 (35%; 95% CI, 18%-57%) were improving.
So the median hospital time was 2 days. No one died and only 7 out of 2 million vaccinated individuals in the study showed any symptoms of myocarditis after 3 weeks. I don't want to minimize the fact that 19 out of 2 million had to spend a few nights in the hospital, but EVEN IF if were the case that 100% of these cases were directly resulting from mRNA and wouldn't happen with COVID, it's a very small risk. The way you stated the facts is extremely misleading and meant to cause alarm. Similar to whoever decided to print 57 out of 100k when the myocarditis number is actually 1 out of 100k (or 3 out of 100k when you include pericarditis). Right now more than 1,400 children are hospitalized with COVID - a novel virus with unknown long-term implications. Why are people like you perfectly comfortable rolling the dice with that, but not with the small chance that someone will develop myocarditis that will resolve quickly? The answer is obvious - this isn't about health and safety but about a crusade.




Zealot, take some reading comprehension classes or at least learn to listen.
Only an anti-vaxxer would call someone who advocates for public health to be a zealot.

The irony of you constantly misrepresenting facts "accidentally" in order to make the vaccines look bad directing me to take reading comprehensions classes is delicious.

Why don't you tell me specifically where I've been wrong so I can address any questions or concerns you may have.
smh
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(paywalled?) sf chronicle article today..
> COVID in California: Moderna vaccine could be twice as effective as Pfizer against delta, study finds
> Aug. 10, 2021; Updated 11:52 a.m.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/health/article/COVID-in-California-Latest-news-and-updates-16375724.php
Quote:

Of the two mRNA vaccines available in the United States, Moderna's two-dose regimen could be significantly more effective against the delta variant of the coronavirus than version produced by Pfizer/BioNTech, according to a study of more than 50,000 patients in the Mayo Clinic Health System. Researchers found the effectiveness of Moderna's vaccine against infection dropped from 86% in early 2021 to 76% in July when the delta variant became dominant. The effectiveness of the Pfizer vaccine fell from 76% to 42% over the same period, the researchers said. A Moderna booster shot may be necessary for anyone who got the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines earlier this year, Dr. Venky Soundararajan, who led the Mayo study, told Reuters.
oski003
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Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Read it again. Nyt correct. Now, I will push back on the person misreading the JAMA study. This is the place I discuss this stuff. I don't tweet etc...


Not sure I follow. Didn't you just admit that you misread the study?

EDIT: I should have also addressed this more specifically:

You said:
Quote:

you say the myocarditis is not serious based on the nyt data because it implies that 13 out of 19 vaccine induced myocarditis patients leave the hospital within 3 weeks.
The JAMA paper says this:

Quote:

Nineteen patients (95%; 95% CI, 76%-99%) were admitted to the hospital. All were discharged after a median of 2 days (IQR, 2-3 days). There were no readmissions or deaths. Two patients received a second vaccination after onset of myocarditis; neither had worsening of symptoms. At last available follow-up (median, 23.5 days [IQR, 4.8-41.3 days] after symptom onset), 13 patients (65%; 95% CI, 43%-82%) had symptom resolution and 7 (35%; 95% CI, 18%-57%) were improving.
So the median hospital time was 2 days. No one died and only 7 out of 2 million vaccinated individuals in the study showed any symptoms of myocarditis after 3 weeks. I don't want to minimize the fact that 19 out of 2 million had to spend a few nights in the hospital, but EVEN IF if were the case that 100% of these cases were directly resulting from mRNA and wouldn't happen with COVID, it's a very small risk. The way you stated the facts is extremely misleading and meant to cause alarm. Similar to whoever decided to print 57 out of 100k when the myocarditis number is actually 1 out of 100k (or 3 out of 100k when you include pericarditis). Right now more than 1,400 children are hospitalized with COVID - a novel virus with unknown long-term implications. Why are people like you perfectly comfortable rolling the dice with that, but not with the small chance that someone will develop myocarditis that will resolve quickly? The answer is obvious - this isn't about health and safety but about a crusade.




Zealot, take some reading comprehension classes or at least learn to listen.
Only an anti-vaxxer would call someone who advocates for public health to be a zealot.

The irony of you constantly misrepresenting facts "accidentally" in order to make the vaccines look bad directing me to take reading comprehensions classes is delicious.

Why don't you tell me specifically where I've been wrong so I can address any questions or concerns you may have.


You are wrong in your attitude and smug disgust of anything questioning the eua vaccines.
dimitrig
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smh said:

(paywalled?) sf chronicle article today..
> COVID in California: Moderna vaccine could be twice as effective as Pfizer against delta, study finds
> Aug. 10, 2021; Updated 11:52 a.m.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/health/article/COVID-in-California-Latest-news-and-updates-16375724.php
Quote:

Of the two mRNA vaccines available in the United States, Moderna's two-dose regimen could be significantly more effective against the delta variant of the coronavirus than version produced by Pfizer/BioNTech, according to a study of more than 50,000 patients in the Mayo Clinic Health System. Researchers found the effectiveness of Moderna's vaccine against infection dropped from 86% in early 2021 to 76% in July when the delta variant became dominant. The effectiveness of the Pfizer vaccine fell from 76% to 42% over the same period, the researchers said. A Moderna booster shot may be necessary for anyone who got the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines earlier this year, Dr. Venky Soundararajan, who led the Mayo study, told Reuters.


No one knows which vaccines we're supposed to be taking or in what order. How comforting.

Unit2Sucks
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oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

oski003 said:

Read it again. Nyt correct. Now, I will push back on the person misreading the JAMA study. This is the place I discuss this stuff. I don't tweet etc...


Not sure I follow. Didn't you just admit that you misread the study?

EDIT: I should have also addressed this more specifically:

You said:
Quote:

you say the myocarditis is not serious based on the nyt data because it implies that 13 out of 19 vaccine induced myocarditis patients leave the hospital within 3 weeks.
The JAMA paper says this:

Quote:

Nineteen patients (95%; 95% CI, 76%-99%) were admitted to the hospital. All were discharged after a median of 2 days (IQR, 2-3 days). There were no readmissions or deaths. Two patients received a second vaccination after onset of myocarditis; neither had worsening of symptoms. At last available follow-up (median, 23.5 days [IQR, 4.8-41.3 days] after symptom onset), 13 patients (65%; 95% CI, 43%-82%) had symptom resolution and 7 (35%; 95% CI, 18%-57%) were improving.
So the median hospital time was 2 days. No one died and only 7 out of 2 million vaccinated individuals in the study showed any symptoms of myocarditis after 3 weeks. I don't want to minimize the fact that 19 out of 2 million had to spend a few nights in the hospital, but EVEN IF if were the case that 100% of these cases were directly resulting from mRNA and wouldn't happen with COVID, it's a very small risk. The way you stated the facts is extremely misleading and meant to cause alarm. Similar to whoever decided to print 57 out of 100k when the myocarditis number is actually 1 out of 100k (or 3 out of 100k when you include pericarditis). Right now more than 1,400 children are hospitalized with COVID - a novel virus with unknown long-term implications. Why are people like you perfectly comfortable rolling the dice with that, but not with the small chance that someone will develop myocarditis that will resolve quickly? The answer is obvious - this isn't about health and safety but about a crusade.




Zealot, take some reading comprehension classes or at least learn to listen.
Only an anti-vaxxer would call someone who advocates for public health to be a zealot.

The irony of you constantly misrepresenting facts "accidentally" in order to make the vaccines look bad directing me to take reading comprehensions classes is delicious.

Why don't you tell me specifically where I've been wrong so I can address any questions or concerns you may have.


You are wrong in your attitude and smug disgust of anything questioning the eua vaccines.
LOL my attitude is that we should be taking reasonable steps to protect people from COVID. As for my "smug disgust" it's pretty focused on people who purposefully spread misinformation, including smart people like you who regularly misinterpret information in the light most unfavorable to vaccines.

You have become radicalized and seem to have trouble separating fact from fiction.
 
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