The Official Russian Invasion of Ukraine Thread

1,709,237 Views | 12719 Replies | Last: 1 day ago by Cal88
bear2034
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Cal88 said:

Very entertaining debate with Piers Morgan featuring nearly all sides of the debate, it's almost like a capsule of this thread:



The cast is similar to what you find on this thread, you could almost substitute our dearly departed U2Sucks for bleeding heart neoliberal Jake Broe, Minot or 003 for podcaster Dave Smith, ML or Zipper for Andrew Wilson, Sy for Fu.kuyama, Socaltownie for Ben Hodges and maybe Bearister and his British tabloid afflictions for Piers Morgan


Somehow, Piers Morgan ended up having one of the more entertaining political shows on Youtube. I was thinking the same thing you were when I watched this show a couple of weeks ago except bearister can't be Piers Morgan. Even though Piers is a liberal, he's also a long time friend of the Donald. : ).
socaltownie
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For the strange Russian apologists on this thread here is a commentator on Russian state TV suggesting that nuking London would be fine.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/2004313/Vladimir-putin-ukraine-war-nuke-london-threat-Solovyov
movielover
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China seeking to put troops into the Russia - Ukraine War ala North Korea.
movielover
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movielover
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movielover
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Dangerous talk, says Russia must be pacified.





movielover
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tequila4kapp
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movielover said:


These are most stupid people on the face of the earth.

Without US support either Ukraine won't exist 12 months from now or we'll be in WW3 (minus the US, hopefully).

Ukraine needs to make peace now - because their future without the US is predictably bleak - and get as many security guarantees as it can manage during the process. That is it. The alternative is to hope a) they can last 3.75 years and b) Vance doesn't win in 2028.
Big C
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movielover said:

Dangerous talk, says Russia must be pacified.







Do you have it in for Macron because he got to give Trump a little knee rub and you didn't? Please be honest...
Cal88
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He's nuts! Total disgrace him and his "wife".
bearister
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Zippergate said:

bearister said:

"Well, the Soviets never did move on on Finland."

Is that because they feared American reaction to that as opposed to now having a POTUS that advocates policies that "coincides with their vision," as Kremlin spokesperson Dimitri Peskov said on Monday?
What does that say about Obama II and Obama III, the regimes that failed to prevent the Russians from taking territory?


It appears, at the time, there was no will in the Ukraine to resist and Obama wasn't going to put our troops on the ground.

Why Ukrainian forces gave up Crimea without a fight - and NATO is alert | Reuters


https://www.reuters.com/article/world/why-ukrainian-forces-gave-up-crimea-without-a-fight-and-nato-is-alert-idUSKBN1A90FW/

….and Putin and Russia hated Obama which I view as a better option than their view that Trump shares their vision.

*I would never put our boys on the ground to die saving Eastern Europe. But if any country wants to resist, I would arm the sh@it out of them like Russia armed North Vietnam during the Vietnam War. We lost 58,000 soldiers and 300,000 wounded and a lot of that is courtesy of Russian and Chinese arms.
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sycasey
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tequila4kapp said:

movielover said:


These are most stupid people on the face of the earth.

Without US support either Ukraine won't exist 12 months from now or we'll be in WW3 (minus the US, hopefully).

Ukraine needs to make peace now - because their future without the US is predictably bleak - and get as many security guarantees as it can manage during the process. That is it. The alternative is to hope a) they can last 3.75 years and b) Vance doesn't win in 2028.

Sorry, I thought you all wanted the US out of there and for Europe to start handling its own business? That's what this is.
Zippergate
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So it's more important for our leader to be hated than for him/her to be effective at diplomacy. Hmmm, that didn't seem to deter Putin, quite the opposite in fact.
Despite all your blathering, the scoreboard remains the same.

Russian invasions while president:

Obama I, II, III 2
Trump 0

Shall we make a scoreboard for casualties?
But I am assuming that you actually want peace. That's looking more and more like a faulty assumption. Apologies.
tequila4kapp
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sycasey said:

tequila4kapp said:

movielover said:


These are most stupid people on the face of the earth.

Without US support either Ukraine won't exist 12 months from now or we'll be in WW3 (minus the US, hopefully).

Ukraine needs to make peace now - because their future without the US is predictably bleak - and get as many security guarantees as it can manage during the process. That is it. The alternative is to hope a) they can last 3.75 years and b) Vance doesn't win in 2028.
Sorry, I thought you all wanted the US out of there and for Europe to start handling its own business? That's what this is.
There are a lot of posts in here so it may not be obvious that I was responding specifically to the statement that peace in Ukraine is more dangerous than war.

If that statement reflects a larger and more equitable distribution of responsibilities within the NATO alliance, great. But it is still an incredibly stupid statement and does not bode well for EU centric NATO success that it could have a member willing to utter it.
bearister
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Zippergate said:

So it's more important for our leader to be hated than for him/her to be effective at diplomacy. Hmmm, that didn't seem to deter Putin, quite the opposite in fact.
Despite all your blathering, the scoreboard remains the same.

Russian invasions while president:

Obama I, II, III 2
Trump 0

Shall we make a scoreboard for casualties?
But I am assuming that you actually want peace. That's looking more and more like a faulty assumption. Apologies.


"Despite all your blathering…."

I liked you better when your bullsh@it was contained on the Anti Vax thread. Now you have mission creeped and spread your disinformation on all the threads.

Most of what you post indicates you trust Trump, Vance, Putin, Musk and RFK Jr. All 5 of them share the same characteristics:

No morals. No ethics. No honor.

Good luck with your North Stars there. That is a group which will not end up on the right side of history….unless they write it, naturally.

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Zippergate
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See, the thing about elections in America is you only have two choices. It's quite easy to bash Trump, but then you're left with the alternative. Your party at one time stood for mostly moral things but now? If there is any morality, it is buried under a mountain of endless wars, censorship, weaponized justice, unchecked immigration, human trafficking, racial preferences, government-sponsored mutilation of gender-confused minors and most of all, an explosion of government spending on who knows what because there is no accountability. Your north star has navigated this country off a cliff and it's probably too late to save.
bearister
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….and now we have a country as good as Trump's and Musk's word and a nation that no country will share intelligence with.

Yogi's mentor saw it with great clarity during Trump I, and it has only gotten worse:

"Meanwhile the pessimism of Trump's revolution is intentional, impassioned, ascendant. They placed a huge bet on America's worst instincts, and won. And the first order of business will be to wipe out a national idea in which they never believed. Welcome to the end of the dream.

In the modern Republican Party, making sense is a secondary consideration. Years of relentless propaganda combined with extreme frustration over the disastrous Bush years and two terms of a Kenyan Muslim terrorist president have cast the party's right wing into a swirling suckhole of paranoia and conspiratorial craziness. There is nothing you can do to go too far, a fact proved, if not exactly understood, by the madman, Trump.

In the elaborate con that is American electoral politics, the Republican voter has long been the easiest mark in the game, the biggest dope in the room. Everyone inside the Beltway knows this. The Republican voters themselves are the only ones who never saw it.

Much of America loves its Mad King, whose works are regularly on display. Russians under Ivan the Terrible used to watch dogs being hurled over the Kremlin walls when the tsar's mood was bad. Americans have grown used to late-night insults tweeted at nuclear powers from the White House bedroom.

Trump has already staked a claim to a role in history usually reserved for hereditary monarchs at the end of a line of inbreeding. Historians will list him somewhere between Vlad the Impaler and France's Charles VI, who thought his buttocks were made of glass.

In the elaborate con that is American electoral politics, the Republican voter has long been the easiest mark in the game, the biggest dope in the room.

….. All you have to do to secure a Republican vote is show lots of pictures of gay people kissing or black kids with their pants pulled down or Mexican babies at an emergency room.

….. That's literally all it's taken to secure decades of Republican votes, a few patriotic words and a little over-the-pants rubbing.

But then he [Trump]ran into the total stupidity of America that embraced every dumb thing about him, and that chemically interacted with his narcissistic personality and it turned into this unstoppable force."

-Matt Taibbi

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sycasey
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Zippergate said:

See, the thing about elections in America is you only have two choices. It's quite easy to bash Trump, but then you're left with the alternative. Your party at one time stood for mostly moral things but now? If there is any morality, it is buried under a mountain of endless wars, censorship, weaponized justice, unchecked immigration, human trafficking, racial preferences, government-sponsored mutilation of gender-confused minors and most of all, an explosion of government spending on who knows what because there is no accountability. Your north star has navigated this country off a cliff and it's probably too late to save.

You guys see such a funhouse mirror version of what folks on the left actually think, it's fascinating.
movielover
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movielover
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Eastern Oregon Bear
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sycasey said:

Zippergate said:

See, the thing about elections in America is you only have two choices. It's quite easy to bash Trump, but then you're left with the alternative. Your party at one time stood for mostly moral things but now? If there is any morality, it is buried under a mountain of endless wars, censorship, weaponized justice, unchecked immigration, human trafficking, racial preferences, government-sponsored mutilation of gender-confused minors and most of all, an explosion of government spending on who knows what because there is no accountability. Your north star has navigated this country off a cliff and it's probably too late to save.

You guys see such a funhouse mirror version of what folks on the left actually think, it's fascinating.
It's easier to attack a fantasyland version of reality.
movielover
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chazzed
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Putin's beeyotch strikes again.


Exclusive-Trump plans to revoke legal status of Ukrainians who fled to US, sources say

https://www.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-trump-plans-revoke-legal-111130604.html


oski003
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chazzed said:

Putin's beeyotch strikes again.


Exclusive-Trump plans to revoke legal status of Ukrainians who fled to US, sources say

The administration is cracking down on migration, period. While I disagree with it, leftists would call him racist if he excluded Ukrainians, who are mainly white, from the crack down.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-trump-plans-revoke-legal-111130604.html



socaltownie
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Honestly some of the most frustrating parts of this thread are.....

1) No real articulation of what comes next.

I am some what sympathetic because I think that the Maga wing hasn't done that. I am actually about 66% sympathetic to the VPs argument about international institutions serving the interests of the global "elite" but that remains ill articulated and fleshed out. But while I am sympathetic I am not at all OK with it being waved off as a question mark as I think it is simply disingenuous.

That is what makes many on this thread (movielover being the biggest offender) sound like agitprop agents for Moscow. I think it demonstrably true that Russia isn't happy with the post-war global order. I think that can be explained both from a international system perspective (if you don't know that see Ken Waltz - former great proff at Berkeley) or looking at the domestic sources of foreign policy. It just seems farcical to argue that Russia is a state committed to preserving the current international order.

2) Moving the goal posts.

Again, this seems to feed the agitprop theory of who you are. There are arguments that Europe needs to shoulder more of the load. Then criticisms of Marcon when he sounds like he is trying to do that. A frustration with US Aid and then almost a gleeful nihilistic contempt when Zelensky seeks alternatives to US aid and an argument of "fat chance with that short boy." Moving the goal psts is both not civil dialogue nor is evidence that you are posting in good faith.

3) Trolling with incomplete arguments

But by far the worst, almost to the point of just leaving it (and seeing if I can somehow just remove the OT as an option) is the posting up of snippets and sound bites to make some point that takes that "evidnece" completely out of context. It asks your audience to then spend inordinates amount of time to actually find the whole clip, put it in context and realize they just wasted far more time in doing that then listening to your agitprop.
Take care of your Chicken
Eastern Oregon Bear
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socaltownie said:

Honestly some of the most frustrating parts of this thread are.....

1) No real articulation of what comes next.

I am some what sympathetic because I think that the Maga wing hasn't done that. I am actually about 66% sympathetic to the VPs argument about international institutions serving the interests of the global "elite" but that remains ill articulated and fleshed out. But while I am sympathetic I am not at all OK with it being waved off as a question mark as I think it is simply disingenuous.

That is what makes many on this thread (movielover being the biggest offender) sound like agitprop agents for Moscow. I think it demonstrably true that Russia isn't happy with the post-war global order. I think that can be explained both from a international system perspective (if you don't know that see Ken Waltz - former great proff at Berkeley) or looking at the domestic sources of foreign policy. It just seems farcical to argue that Russia is a state committed to preserving the current international order.

2) Moving the goal posts.

Again, this seems to feed the agitprop theory of who you are. There are arguments that Europe needs to shoulder more of the load. Then criticisms of Marcon when he sounds like he is trying to do that. A frustration with US Aid and then almost a gleeful nihilistic contempt when Zelensky seeks alternatives to US aid and an argument of "fat chance with that short boy." Moving the goal psts is both not civil dialogue nor is evidence that you are posting in good faith.

3) Trolling with incomplete arguments

But by far the worst, almost to the point of just leaving it (and seeing if I can somehow just remove the OT as an option) is the posting up of snippets and sound bites to make some point that takes that "evidnece" completely out of context. It asks your audience to then spend inordinates amount of time to actually find the whole clip, put it in context and realize they just wasted far more time in doing that then listening to your agitprop.
Bravo!
sycasey
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tequila4kapp said:

sycasey said:

tequila4kapp said:

movielover said:


These are most stupid people on the face of the earth.

Without US support either Ukraine won't exist 12 months from now or we'll be in WW3 (minus the US, hopefully).

Ukraine needs to make peace now - because their future without the US is predictably bleak - and get as many security guarantees as it can manage during the process. That is it. The alternative is to hope a) they can last 3.75 years and b) Vance doesn't win in 2028.
Sorry, I thought you all wanted the US out of there and for Europe to start handling its own business? That's what this is.
There are a lot of posts in here so it may not be obvious that I was responding specifically to the statement that peace in Ukraine is more dangerous than war.

If that statement reflects a larger and more equitable distribution of responsibilities within the NATO alliance, great. But it is still an incredibly stupid statement and does not bode well for EU centric NATO success that it could have a member willing to utter it.
Not sure if there will be a NATO alliance anymore once Trump is done with it.
Cal88
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socaltownie said:

Honestly some of the most frustrating parts of this thread are.....

1) No real articulation of what comes next.

I am some what sympathetic because I think that the Maga wing hasn't done that. I am actually about 66% sympathetic to the VPs argument about international institutions serving the interests of the global "elite" but that remains ill articulated and fleshed out. But while I am sympathetic I am not at all OK with it being waved off as a question mark as I think it is simply disingenuous.

That is what makes many on this thread (movielover being the biggest offender) sound like agitprop agents for Moscow. I think it demonstrably true that Russia isn't happy with the post-war global order. I think that can be explained both from a international system perspective (if you don't know that see Ken Waltz - former great proff at Berkeley) or looking at the domestic sources of foreign policy. It just seems farcical to argue that Russia is a state committed to preserving the current international order.

2) Moving the goal posts.

Again, this seems to feed the agitprop theory of who you are. There are arguments that Europe needs to shoulder more of the load. Then criticisms of Marcon when he sounds like he is trying to do that. A frustration with US Aid and then almost a gleeful nihilistic contempt when Zelensky seeks alternatives to US aid and an argument of "fat chance with that short boy." Moving the goal psts is both not civil dialogue nor is evidence that you are posting in good faith.

3) Trolling with incomplete arguments

But by far the worst, almost to the point of just leaving it (and seeing if I can somehow just remove the OT as an option) is the posting up of snippets and sound bites to make some point that takes that "evidnece" completely out of context. It asks your audience to then spend inordinates amount of time to actually find the whole clip, put it in context and realize they just wasted far more time in doing that then listening to your agitprop.


What is your opinion on Mearsheimer's main take, of NATO expansion into Ukraine being a Russian hard red line, which is essentially the same as that of the diplomat community over the last couple of decades, including people like George Kennan.
tequila4kapp
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socaltownie said:

Honestly some of the most frustrating parts of this thread are.....

1) No real articulation of what comes next.

I am some what sympathetic because I think that the Maga wing hasn't done that. I am actually about 66% sympathetic to the VPs argument about international institutions serving the interests of the global "elite" but that remains ill articulated and fleshed out. But while I am sympathetic I am not at all OK with it being waved off as a question mark as I think it is simply disingenuous.

That is what makes many on this thread (movielover being the biggest offender) sound like agitprop agents for Moscow. I think it demonstrably true that Russia isn't happy with the post-war global order. I think that can be explained both from a international system perspective (if you don't know that see Ken Waltz - former great proff at Berkeley) or looking at the domestic sources of foreign policy. It just seems farcical to argue that Russia is a state committed to preserving the current international order.

2) Moving the goal posts.

Again, this seems to feed the agitprop theory of who you are. There are arguments that Europe needs to shoulder more of the load. Then criticisms of Marcon when he sounds like he is trying to do that. A frustration with US Aid and then almost a gleeful nihilistic contempt when Zelensky seeks alternatives to US aid and an argument of "fat chance with that short boy." Moving the goal psts is both not civil dialogue nor is evidence that you are posting in good faith.

3) Trolling with incomplete arguments

But by far the worst, almost to the point of just leaving it (and seeing if I can somehow just remove the OT as an option) is the posting up of snippets and sound bites to make some point that takes that "evidnece" completely out of context. It asks your audience to then spend inordinates amount of time to actually find the whole clip, put it in context and realize they just wasted far more time in doing that then listening to your agitprop.
3. Agree

2. It is good that UK and France are trying. They themselves say "none of our troops on the ground without US support." They are not getting substantive cooperation so far from others; nobody else has agreed to send peace keeping troops. Germany flat out says "not without the US." About 25% of NATO member still are not at 2% GDP on miliary spending...more than a decade after making that commitment and in the face of a major war. It demonstrates the underlying America First-ers point: the EU isn't a real ally but instead just benefit from US protection.

1. I think this is the million dollar question for the Status Quo crowd. What is the end game for continuing to arm Ukraine? When does it end? What's the objective? They don't seem to have an answer, they just want to keep on doing the same thing because Putin/Russia are evil (and I do trend toward agreeing with that sentiment). That isn't good enough. It is expensive and will almost certainly result in Ukraine being fully defeated/absorbed back into Russia or NATO troops fighting Russia. Those are absolutely unacceptable outcomes.
Zippergate
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Honestly, I can't make heads or tails of this. Which side are you referring to?

You don't like the messenger or the message. Fine. If you have a better solution to the problem than offered by Trump/Vance, then by all means share it? Does your side even have a plan? Explain why three years into the war we can't have an accounting of what has been spent or what our spending has achieved.

The neocons absolutely love the status quo; Russia is "weakened" and all their cronies are getting rich. The Europeans seem to love the status quo if this poll is any indication; they can be "virtuous" at someone else's expense. The American and Ukrainian people? Not so much.

socaltownie
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Cal88 said:




What is your opinion on Mearsheimer's main take, of NATO expansion into Ukraine being a Russian hard red line, which is essentially the same as that of the diplomat community over the last couple of decades, including people like George Kennan.

I am very much of two minds on this.

1) I think he is right about that the eastward expansion of NATO and article 5 protections are a problem for Russia. I tend to believe that Russian foreign policy has always been driven by historical and deep seeded paranoia about Western intentions. That actually is pretty consistent with Kennan's FA piece that helped lay the intellectual ground work for containment.

2) But "offensive realism" (see his 2001 Book) really waves a magic wand to explain the transition period between when a state gains nuclear capability to when it has a second strike capability.

In my mind from a US perspective that is, by far, the most dangerous period because there are strong incentives (if one agreed to his realist perspective) to preemptively strike. In turn, countries have every reason to operate on a hair trigger if they lack a second strike capability. Such a world is, for US interests, by far the most dangerous and worrisome.

3) And then these neo-realists tend to wave their magic wand in another way - they refuse to acknowledge that smaller/medium sized states have options.

4) Because I believe that small and medium states have agency (and because it really scares me to think of a world with numerous states having nukes but not second strike capability) I think avoiding that world should be a primary interest in US foreign policy. To me that means I really don't CARE about the origins of the war as much as I care about what US disengagement means. And I am actually a lot less concerned about Ukraine than Poland, Germany and Turkey because I believe in a world where US commitments to Europe and lessened all three of those states will decide to they need their own independent nuclear capabilities.

Ultimately that is my main problem with the offensive realist school - not that they are wrong (I think they are actually very right about the anarchy international affairs and the importance of the security dilemma) but that they assume that regional hegemons in the current world order are paramount. Nukes are relatively cheap and obtainable as Pakistan, India and North Korea of all states have shown. A world in which regional hegemons actually act like regional hegemons is one that will spur on proliferation and that keeps me up at night.

PS. In case you wanted very much a direct answer - I think he is right that Russia acted against Ukraine because of worries it was going to join NATO. Predictable response to the security dilemma. But I am not sure I care about the historic who was wrong when. Foreign policy isn't about history - it is about going forward and thinking about what world is the safest for US interests.


Take care of your Chicken
socaltownie
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tequila4kapp said:




1. I think this is the million dollar question for the Status Quo crowd. What is the end game for continuing to arm Ukraine? When does it end? What's the objective? They don't seem to have an answer, they just want to keep on doing the same thing because Putin/Russia are evil (and I do trend toward agreeing with that sentiment). That isn't good enough. It is expensive and will almost certainly result in Ukraine being fully defeated/absorbed back into Russia or NATO troops fighting Russia. Those are absolutely unacceptable outcomes.

I think the status quo crowd would argue that Russia ends up being exhausted and the diplomatic solution is one in which Putin saves enough face to ensure there isn't a domestic crisis at home. Ukraine likely loses the most heavily Russian (and now devestated Oblasts) and article 5 projections are ultimately extended over Ukraine.

It just isn't realist for Moscow to think they are getting Belaruss #2 in a state where there have been several hundred thousand men kills _AND_ (and I think this is vitally important for the isolationists to understand) that has as a core national identity the history for Stalin's famine.Any termporary solution which puts them in the sphere of influence of Moscow will be inherently unstable - because Keiv can act and isn't without agency.

Take care of your Chicken
socaltownie
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Zippergate said:

Honestly, I can't make heads or tails of this. Which side are you referring to?

You don't like the messenger or the message. Fine. If you have a better solution to the problem than offered by Trump/Vance, then by all means share it? Does your side even have a plan? Explain why three years into the war we can't have an accounting of what has been spent or what our spending has achieved.

The neocons absolutely love the status quo; Russia is "weakened" and all their cronies are getting rich. The Europeans seem to love the status quo if this poll is any indication; they can be "virtuous" at someone else's expense. The American and Ukrainian people? Not so much.


I think the idea that the "Ukrainian" people want to be dominated by Russia and become another Belarus has been pretty much disproven in 2014 and especially is problematic today.
Take care of your Chicken
socaltownie
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Cal88 said:




What is your opinion on Mearsheimer's main take, of NATO expansion into Ukraine being a Russian hard red line, which is essentially the same as that of the diplomat community over the last couple of decades, including people like George Kennan.

Let me add one other thing in. I tend to be much more optimistic about China than the neo-realists or neo-conservatives ((call me an IPE guy at heart). China's inability (and that is a subject I am less understanding of) to develop a functioning consumer lead economy and its leaderships (history is a ***** here) deep paranoia about internal uprisings rather than external invasion I think really underplays the vested stake China has in a globalized economy. They HAVE to keep selling ***** Add in their nearly existential demographic problem of a shrinking population and that is where The Tragedy of Great power politics really starts to unravel. Yes - Anarchy matters. But that doesn't inevitably mean that the security delimma trumps all and that globalization hasn't made war vastly more costly than it has ever been.

Take care of your Chicken
sycasey
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tequila4kapp said:

1. I think this is the million dollar question for the Status Quo crowd. What is the end game for continuing to arm Ukraine? When does it end? What's the objective? They don't seem to have an answer, they just want to keep on doing the same thing because Putin/Russia are evil (and I do trend toward agreeing with that sentiment). That isn't good enough. It is expensive and will almost certainly result in Ukraine being fully defeated/absorbed back into Russia or NATO troops fighting Russia. Those are absolutely unacceptable outcomes.
I'm sure folks will want to argue against this, but: my understanding is that the aid the US was giving to Ukraine was a relatively small portion of our overall defense budget and mostly giving them older equipment we weren't really using anymore anyway. I think this kind of aid could have continued almost indefinitely with minimal skin off our nose, as long as the Ukrainians remained willing to fight (and I think they have proven that they are). So no, I don't think it would "almost certainly" result in Ukraine being absorbed into Russia. Russia isn't going to be able to hold a country where such a large majority of the population hates them.

That said, the war was likely to remain a virtual stalemate for some time so starting peace talks (with the understanding that Ukraine would lose some territory) was not necessarily a bad idea; I just think we should be doing it while on the side of freedom and democracy, and not with our government parroting all of the Russian propaganda talking points.
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