The Official Russian Invasion of Ukraine Thread

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bearister
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7:38a, 2/24/22
Videos recorded by Ukrainians show cruise missiles flying overhead



https://mol.im/a/10546221
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DiabloWags
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In reply to dajo9 • 7:38a, 2/24/22
dajo9 said:
DiabloWags said:
dajo9 said:


Anybody in America that is soft on Putin is supporting the destruction of America's democratic ideals.

This would be most of the traitors at Faux News who sound like RT more and more every day.
Also people like Candace Owens.
And Tulsi Gabbard. There are plenty.

Agreed.
She's another Putin apologist.

As if taking Ukraine becoming a member of NATO "off the table" would satisfy a thug like Putin.
She's in fantasy land.



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GoOskie
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7:40a, 2/24/22
MPGA!!!
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sycasey
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In reply to dajo9 • 8:19a, 2/24/22
dajo9 said:
DiabloWags said:
dajo9 said:


Anybody in America that is soft on Putin is supporting the destruction of America's democratic ideals.

This would be most of the traitors at Faux News who sound like RT more and more every day.
Also people like Candace Owens.
And Tulsi Gabbard. There are plenty.
Also the whole ecosystem of nominally lefty "alternative media" sources: Greenwald, Taibbi, Michael Tracey, the whole Greyzone gang. All have major egg on their faces over this. So obsessed with criticizing American government and American media that they failed to see what was happening right in front of their faces. Either that or they intentionally tried to mislead, but the result is the same.

You can see the same pattern happening with our Anarchist friend. Faced with the cold reality that his predictions about Putin not invading or not advancing have been proven entirely wrong (and the reports from US intelligence entirely right), he has to pivot and find a new way to blame the US government for the situation in Ukraine. Hey, I've got another theory: maybe the country that already invaded and occupied a part of Ukraine in 2014, created a massive military build-up in the ensuing years on their borders, and is now invading and attempting to take over the entire country based on false pretenses, is actually the one to blame here. Russia is at fault. They are the imperialist bully.
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bearister
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8:38a, 2/24/22
On CNN, they said the Ukrainian army is dug into trenches. Yes, a totally outmoded form of warfare. This is an interesting read:

"A recent example of trench warfare is the War in Donbass. To consolidate and defend their territory, government and rebel forces have dug trenches and have initiated warfare reminiscent of World War I, with troops staying in and fighting from trenches for months at a time using cement mixers and excavators at their lines for digging network tunnels and deep bunkers for protection.[91] Since the Minsk peace agreements the front lines have not moved significantly and the two sides mostly fire mortars and sniper shots at each other. As a result, both sides have dug elaborate networks of trenches and deep bunkers for protection."

Trench warfare - Wikipedia


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trench_warfare

*Obviously the Russians can end that defensive effort anytime they want to if they are willing to slaughter enough Ukrainians.
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dajo9
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In reply to oski003 • 8:49a, 2/24/22
oski003 said:
I can't believe the Republicans invaded Ukraine. This is crazy. Democrats won't stand for this!
Yes, I'm talking about you being in favor of the destruction of American ideals
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dajo9
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8:51a, 2/24/22
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Anarchistbear
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In reply to sycasey • 9:27a, 2/24/22
sycasey said:
dajo9 said:
DiabloWags said:
dajo9 said:


Anybody in America that is soft on Putin is supporting the destruction of America's democratic ideals.

This would be most of the traitors at Faux News who sound like RT more and more every day.
Also people like Candace Owens.
And Tulsi Gabbard. There are plenty.
Also the whole ecosystem of nominally lefty "alternative media" sources: Greenwald, Taibbi, Michael Tracey, the whole Greyzone gang. All have major egg on their faces over this. So obsessed with criticizing American government and American media that they failed to see what was happening right in front of their faces. Either that or they intentionally tried to mislead, but the result is the same.

You can see the same pattern happening with our Anarchist friend. Faced with the cold reality that his predictions about Putin not invading or not advancing have been proven entirely wrong (and the reports from US intelligence entirely right), he has to pivot and find a new way to blame the US government for the situation in Ukraine. Hey, I've got another theory: maybe the country that already invaded and occupied a part of Ukraine in 2014, created a massive military build-up in the ensuing years on their borders, and is now invading and attempting to take over the entire country based on false pretenses, is actually the one to blame here. Russia is at fault. They are the imperialist bully.


Of course Putin is to blame. But stop with the Putin "appeasement " b$llahit. I don't believe in sending Us troops to the Ukraine, neither do you, neither does Joe Biden. Don't pretend you have another position.
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sycasey
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In reply to Anarchistbear • 9:48a, 2/24/22
Anarchistbear said:
sycasey said:
dajo9 said:
DiabloWags said:
dajo9 said:


Anybody in America that is soft on Putin is supporting the destruction of America's democratic ideals.

This would be most of the traitors at Faux News who sound like RT more and more every day.
Also people like Candace Owens.
And Tulsi Gabbard. There are plenty.
Also the whole ecosystem of nominally lefty "alternative media" sources: Greenwald, Taibbi, Michael Tracey, the whole Greyzone gang. All have major egg on their faces over this. So obsessed with criticizing American government and American media that they failed to see what was happening right in front of their faces. Either that or they intentionally tried to mislead, but the result is the same.

You can see the same pattern happening with our Anarchist friend. Faced with the cold reality that his predictions about Putin not invading or not advancing have been proven entirely wrong (and the reports from US intelligence entirely right), he has to pivot and find a new way to blame the US government for the situation in Ukraine. Hey, I've got another theory: maybe the country that already invaded and occupied a part of Ukraine in 2014, created a massive military build-up in the ensuing years on their borders, and is now invading and attempting to take over the entire country based on false pretenses, is actually the one to blame here. Russia is at fault. They are the imperialist bully.


Of course Putin is to blame. But stop with the Putin "appeasement " b$llahit. I don't believe in sending Us troops to the Ukraine, neither do you, neither does Joe Biden. Don't pretend you have another position.
No I don't think it's time to send US troops in (yet). But maybe we can dispense with the idea that Putin is a rational actor and that anything the US did would have clearly deterred him. Turns out it was an entirely rational notion that we need to be prepared for the worst with him. Not a "hoax" at all.
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Anarchistbear
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In reply to sycasey • 10:08a, 2/24/22
sycasey said:
Anarchistbear said:
sycasey said:
dajo9 said:
DiabloWags said:
dajo9 said:


Anybody in America that is soft on Putin is supporting the destruction of America's democratic ideals.

This would be most of the traitors at Faux News who sound like RT more and more every day.
Also people like Candace Owens.
And Tulsi Gabbard. There are plenty.
Also the whole ecosystem of nominally lefty "alternative media" sources: Greenwald, Taibbi, Michael Tracey, the whole Greyzone gang. All have major egg on their faces over this. So obsessed with criticizing American government and American media that they failed to see what was happening right in front of their faces. Either that or they intentionally tried to mislead, but the result is the same.

You can see the same pattern happening with our Anarchist friend. Faced with the cold reality that his predictions about Putin not invading or not advancing have been proven entirely wrong (and the reports from US intelligence entirely right), he has to pivot and find a new way to blame the US government for the situation in Ukraine. Hey, I've got another theory: maybe the country that already invaded and occupied a part of Ukraine in 2014, created a massive military build-up in the ensuing years on their borders, and is now invading and attempting to take over the entire country based on false pretenses, is actually the one to blame here. Russia is at fault. They are the imperialist bully.


Of course Putin is to blame. But stop with the Putin "appeasement " b$llahit. I don't believe in sending Us troops to the Ukraine, neither do you, neither does Joe Biden. Don't pretend you have another position.
No I don't think it's time to send US troops in (yet). But maybe we can dispense with the idea that Putin is a rational actor and that anything the US did would have clearly deterred him. Turns out it was an entirely rational notion that we need to be prepared for the worst with him. Not a "hoax" at all.


Of course he is a rational actor. What might have deterred him is if the use of force to aid Ukraine wasn't taken off the table before negotiations. When your enemy chooses not to fight you are left with the deterrence of sanctions- the third set under three Presidents. Of course that doesn't mean he won't pay a price in blood and money for this disaster
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bearister
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10:25a, 2/24/22
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going4roses
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10:36a, 2/24/22
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sp4149
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10:52a, 2/24/22
Aren't we now left to just debating -
Is Ukraine the first Domino to fall, or the last?
A lot of the debate should now be whether Russia stops with regime change in Ukraine.

Two of Ukraine's neighbors are joined at the hip with the Kremlin, Belarus and Moldova.
Since Belarus troops invaded today (cagy Russia, sending Belarus troops to invade thro Chernobyl)
and Russian rockets seem to have attacked Odessa from the west (Moldova?). it's time to internationally
link them with Putin for the invasion and sanction them as well.

The result is that now most of the new NATO members have a much hotter border with Putin Territories; Putin's Iron curtain has moved hundred's of miles West today.
A bold move would be to make these Putin controlled territories suffer the same economic sanctions as Putin.

Putin's international allies are helping to protect his aggression. China's summit during the Olympics have resulted in China labeling Ukraine as the aggressor; look out Taiwan, the South China sea, Vietnam, South Korea and other countries close to China, they now have a blueprint for expansion. And Saudi Arabia is not supporting the US and NATO. At least we now know that despite years of military ties and assistance to maintain their governance by Sharia law, they are not America's friend when needed.

And then there are European neighbors of Russia who have not chosen to join NATO; like Finland. Russia has invaded before, NATO is not obligated to defend Finland. And Finland has been a bigger thorn in Russia's side long then Ukraine.

A lot of wobbly dominos out there...

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Anarchistbear
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11:05a, 2/24/22
Good post. The return of the Cold War and the unraveling of the Nixon- Kissinger detente separating Russia and China. A new world emerges that is not uni or bi-lateral
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bearister
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11:13a, 2/24/22
"Rarely in our lifetimes has the world heard more chilling and ominous words: Vladimir Putin said nations "will face consequences greater than any you have faced in history" if they interfere in his invasion of Ukraine.*

Why it matters: This is a rare overt threat of nuclear attack.

Between the lines: The world is witnessing the most consequential invasion in Europe since World War II, but with a scary twist:

Madman Putin is sitting on a massive nuclear arsenal and seems impervious to pressure, sanctions or threats.
Putin said in announcing the invasion:

To anyone who would consider interfering from the outside: If you do, you will face consequences greater than any you have faced in history. All relevant decisions have been taken. I hope you hear me." Axios

*Apparently they forgot our former Mad King:

"North Korea best not make any more threats to the United States," Mr. Trump told reporters at his golf club in Bedminster, N.J., where he is spending much of the month on a working vacation. "They will be met with fire and fury like the world has never seen."
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concordtom
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11:29a, 2/24/22
Putin did this now because he is counting on Trump to undermine Biden, the US, and the western alliance.

It was already suggested that US division makes Europe know they can't depend on US consistency.
Trump is doing his part to support Putin.

PUPPET.

How long will GOP people going to play along with the Trump/Putin alliance?????
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concordtom
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In reply to Anarchistbear • 11:30a, 2/24/22
Anarchistbear said:
Good post. The return of the Cold War and the unraveling of the Nixon- Kissinger detente separating Russia and China. A new world emerges that is not uni or bi-lateral
You're right. And it's brought to you by Trump:

"I said, 'This is genius.' Putin declares a big portion of the Ukraine. Putin declares it as independent. Oh, that's wonderful. So, Putin is now saying, 'It's independent,' a large section of Ukraine. I said, 'How smart is that?' And he's gonna go in and be a peacekeeper. That's the strongest peace force. We could use that on our southern border. That's the strongest peace force I've ever seen. There were more army tanks than I've ever seen. They're gonna keep peace all right. No, but think of it. Here's a guy who's very savvy, I know him very well. Very, very well."
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DiabloWags
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In reply to sp4149 • 11:38a, 2/24/22
sp4149 said:

A bold move would be to make these Putin controlled territories suffer the same economic sanctions as Putin.




I'm fairly confident that Belarus will suffer economic sanctions as well.
We've sanctioned them before in response to their response to the migrant crisis on the border with Poland and the political repression and ongoing human rights violations committed by Lukashenko.

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concordtom
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In reply to sp4149 • 11:40a, 2/24/22
sp4149 said:
Aren't we now left to just debating -
Is Ukraine the first Domino to fall, or the last?
A lot of the debate should now be whether Russia stops with regime change in Ukraine.

Two of Ukraine's neighbors are joined at the hip with the Kremlin, Belarus and Moldova.
Since Belarus troops invaded today (cagy Russia, sending Belarus troops to invade thro Chernobyl)
and Russian rockets seem to have attacked Odessa from the west (Moldova?). it's time to internationally
link them with Putin for the invasion and sanction them as well.

The result is that now most of the new NATO members have a much hotter border with Putin Territories; Putin's Iron curtain has moved hundred's of miles West today.
A bold move would be to make these Putin controlled territories suffer the same economic sanctions as Putin.

Putin's international allies are helping to protect his aggression. China's summit during the Olympics have resulted in China labeling Ukraine as the aggressor; look out Taiwan, the South China sea, Vietnam, South Korea and other countries close to China, they now have a blueprint for expansion. And Saudi Arabia is not supporting the US and NATO. At least we now know that despite years of military ties and assistance to maintain their governance by Sharia law, they are not America's friend when needed.

And then there are European neighbors of Russia who have not chosen to join NATO; like Finland. Russia has invaded before, NATO is not obligated to defend Finland. And Finland has been a bigger thorn in Russia's side long then Ukraine.

A lot of wobbly dominos out there...

This is Sudetenland all over again, no?

I'd have been satisfied if Biden had just said at the podium, "Today, an iron curtain has descended across the continent." (though admittedly two distinct historical references)

The Cold War should be back on right now. Because he ain't stopping.

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concordtom
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11:47a, 2/24/22
Moldova, then Georgia, now Ukraine: How Russia built 'bridgeheads into post-Soviet space'

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20220222-moldova-then-georgia-now-ukraine-how-russia-built-bridgeheads-into-post-soviet-space
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concordtom
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11:49a, 2/24/22
https://cepa.org/putin-is-determined-to-rebuild-the-russian-empire/

January 10, 2022
As the US and NATO allies negotiate with Russia this week, they need to accept a sobering reality:
Vladimir Putin is determined to rebuild the Russian empire.

Upon becoming President of Russia 21 years ago, Vladimir Putin declared his intention to restore Russian greatness. At the time, coming on the heels of a decade of wild-west capitalism, corruption, and breakdowns in law and order, many Russians and outside observers welcomed his words as a necessary correction that would strengthen democracy.

Two decades later, however, it is apparent that he was thinking about something else. Having described the collapse of the Soviet Union as the greatest tragedy of the 20th Century, Putin has embarked on a project to re-establish a Russian empire in Europe and Eurasia.

Several elements were central to this project and were visible (although often explained away) even during his first decade: rebuilding the Russian military, modernizing and expanding Russia's nuclear arsenal, reviving and expanding Russian intelligence services and activities, taking control of Russian media outlets, consolidating state industries, and undermining (and now openly crippling) any political opposition to his United Russia party. Russia's elections are now extensively rigged.

President Putin's speech at the 2007 Munich Security Conference took a further next step, announcing to the world Russia's rejection of the existing European security architecture. By that point, Russia had already announced it would no longer adhere to the Conventional Armed Forces in Europe (CFE) Treaty and vehemently opposed NATO plans for theater missile defense, which had previously been developed in partnership with Russia. Russia also refused to respect the principle of host-nation consent for its largely unwanted troop presence in Georgia and Moldova, and began ignoring Vienna Convention limits on troop concentrations, exercises, and transparency. It later violated the Intermediate-Range and Shorter-Range Missiles (INF) Treaty and began to deny overflights requested under the Open Skies Treaty.

Having shored up Russia's capabilities and established a stronger military position vis--vis the West, Putin has begun to agglomerate former Soviet territories. Within the past two years, he has overseen a take-over of Belarussian security and media, a stationing of Russian peacekeeping troops in Nagorno-Karabakh, a take-over of Kazakhstan's security and media, and a massive military build-up that threatens a new invasion of Ukraine. This is on top of Russia's 2014 illegal annexation of Crimea and occupation of parts of Donbas; its 2008 occupation of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and its long-standing presence in Transnistria.

The draft treaty texts Russia presented to the United States and to NATO in December make it clear that Russia is seeking to overturn the European security architecture in place since the Helsinki Accords of 1975, and return instead to a Yalta-like division of Europe between a Western and a Russian sphere of influence. Several elements of the Helsinki "decalogue" are directly challenged by Russia's texts: the right of states to choose their own security alliances; the non-interference in the domestic affairs of other states; the commitment to refrain from the threat or use force; and acceptance that international borders cannot be altered by force.

Clearly, the US and Europe will reject these Russian demands. But that is hardly the point. December 2022 will mark the 100th anniversary of the founding of the Soviet Union on the territory of the former Russian Empire. Putin seems determined to celebrate that anniversary having established a new Russian empire, and he is backing that up with military force, regardless of the West's protests.

Coming to grips with this new reality will be the challenge for NATO leaders in the months and years ahead. To maintain freedom and security in Europe and hold out the hope that nations not currently in NATO may enjoy freedom and security as well NATO must be prepared to return to a level of military presence and vigilance not seen in decades.

The post-Cold War period is coming to an end. What comes next may not be a new Cold War, but neither will it be the period of hopeful progress in peace and security we have long sought. NATO must be ready.

Ambassador Kurt Volkeris a Distinguished Fellow at the Center for European Policy Analysis. A leading expert in US foreign and national security policy, he served as US Special Representative for Ukraine Negotiations from 2017-2019, and as US Ambassador to NATO from 2008-2009.

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oski003
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In reply to concordtom • 11:51a, 2/24/22
concordtom said:
Putin did this now because he is counting on Trump to undermine Biden, the US, and the western alliance.

It was already suggested that US division makes Europe know they can't depend on US consistency.
Trump is doing his part to support Putin.

PUPPET.

How long will GOP people going to play along with the Trump/Putin alliance?????

This board doesn't disappoint. The Russian invasion of Ukraine is Trump's fault because Putin knew Trump would go on Fox News and undermine Biden. Got it.
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concordtom
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In reply to oski003 • 11:55a, 2/24/22
oski003 said:
concordtom said:
Putin did this now because he is counting on Trump to undermine Biden, the US, and the western alliance.

It was already suggested that US division makes Europe know they can't depend on US consistency.
Trump is doing his part to support Putin.

PUPPET.

How long will GOP people going to play along with the Trump/Putin alliance?????

This board doesn't disappoint. The Russian invasion of Ukraine is Trump's fault because Putin knew Trump would go on Fox News and undermine Biden. Got it.
Putin 2024, right?
Good for you, traitor.
Or is it, "mere fool"?

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going4roses
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11:55a, 2/24/22
https://vm.tiktok.com/TTPdSAX28U/
Tell someone you love them and try to have a good day
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BearForce2
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In reply to concordtom • 11:59a, 2/24/22


Today:

Reporter: Is Putin threatening a nuclear strike?

Pres. Biden: I have no idea...
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sycasey
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In reply to oski003 • 12:05p, 2/24/22
oski003 said:
concordtom said:
Putin did this now because he is counting on Trump to undermine Biden, the US, and the western alliance.

It was already suggested that US division makes Europe know they can't depend on US consistency.
Trump is doing his part to support Putin.

PUPPET.

How long will GOP people going to play along with the Trump/Putin alliance?????

This board doesn't disappoint. The Russian invasion of Ukraine is Trump's fault because Putin knew Trump would go on Fox News and undermine Biden. Got it.
I don't think Trump was helpful, but this invasion is Putin's fault, full stop. Everything else is America-centric thinking.
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Sebastabear
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In reply to sycasey • 12:07p, 2/24/22
sycasey said:
I admit, even I didn't think the Putin appeasers would be proven wrong THIS quickly.
To be fair my prediction 2021 would finally be the year Cal challenged for the Rose Bowl only lasted for the first 15 minutes of the Nevada game so this prediction on Putin made it several hours longer than that.

Putin is a clear and present danger to the last 50 years of relative peace in the world. Any pretense that he was playing the "long game" or would just consolidate gains should now be over. He sounds like Hitler and now his actions are matching (yeah, yeah Godwin's law and all that - but when you invade neighboring countries and start talking about how they don't "really" even exist Hitler analogies have to be on the table).

Only possible response is unified isolation and using globalism and the modern interdependency of the world economy to bring his economy and him to his knees. It won't be cheap but the cost of doing nothing is far higher. He clearly will not stop until he puts Russia at its "rightful" place at the head of a new world order. Not a world I want to live in.
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oski003
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In reply to concordtom • 12:09p, 2/24/22
concordtom said:
oski003 said:
concordtom said:
Putin did this now because he is counting on Trump to undermine Biden, the US, and the western alliance.

It was already suggested that US division makes Europe know they can't depend on US consistency.
Trump is doing his part to support Putin.

PUPPET.

How long will GOP people going to play along with the Trump/Putin alliance?????

This board doesn't disappoint. The Russian invasion of Ukraine is Trump's fault because Putin knew Trump would go on Fox News and undermine Biden. Got it.
Putin 2024, right?
Good for you, traitor.
Or is it, "mere fool"?



Find new meds.
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Anarchistbear
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12:13p, 2/24/22
What a dilemma! Trump is such a foreign policy genius that he's created a problem that only can be fixed by his re-election.
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sycasey
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In reply to Sebastabear • 12:59p, 2/24/22
Sebastabear said:
(yeah, yeah Godwin's law and all that - but when you invade neighboring countries and start talking about how they don't "really" even exist Hitler analogies have to be on the table).
He was basically invoking "blood and soil" type arguments to justify his invasion: Ukrainians were always Russian, ancestral home, etc. The Hitler comparisons are apt.
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bearister
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In reply to Anarchistbear • 1:16p, 2/24/22
Anarchistbear said:
What a dilemma! Trump is such a foreign policy genius that he's created a problem that only can be fixed by his re-election.


…at 5'11 300 lbs, he is pretty high up in the Death Pool for that aspiration.






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okaydo
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1:22p, 2/24/22




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In reply to sycasey • 1:24p, 2/24/22
sycasey said:
Sebastabear said:
(yeah, yeah Godwin's law and all that - but when you invade neighboring countries and start talking about how they don't "really" even exist Hitler analogies have to be on the table).
He was basically invoking "blood and soil" type arguments to justify his invasion: Ukrainians were always Russian, ancestral home, etc. The Hitler comparisons are apt.
Yup.

1. Our great nation was humiliated in the resolution of the last great conflict (Hitler - WWI, Putin - Cold War).

2. Our prior leaders betrayed us and brought our great nation to ruin.

3. We need an aggressive military position to protect ourselves against those degenerate foreign powers who seek to destroy us and keep us weak.

4. Our rightful and historical "blood and soil" empire was chopped up by those who humiliated us and we are just retaking what is rightfully ours.

5. There are degenerates within the empire who have made us weak and they must be rounded up and imprisoned (interestingly Hitler and Putin both made points of explicitly targeting the LBTQ community while going to great pains to show how manly and powerful they themselves are - hmmmm).

6. We only want peace and will repeatedly "show" how peaceful we are while of course planning to invade our neighbors (Hitler's Munich Accord with Chamberlain - Putin claiming he was "withdrawing troops from the border" just last week).

7. We must silence all dissent from the internal press or other politicians because they are all really just agents of our nation's foreign enemies.

8. We are a superior people with a superior history and culture and belong at the apex of a new world order, with yours truly of course the one to bring us there.

It's honestly chilling.

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kelly09
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In reply to bearister • 1:51p, 2/24/22
bearister said:
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BearForce2
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In reply to okaydo • 2:30p, 2/24/22
Biden is obviously the victim here in this tragic outcome.
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