dajo9 said:

---

Lots of MAD talk on this thread. NATO is not under attack. America is not under attack. I'm glad the poli Sci folks at the State Department and President Biden understand this.

---

At the end of the day, Ukraine is the Poster Child for what happens when you give up your Nukes.

dajo9 said:

---

Lots of MAD talk on this thread. NATO is not under attack. America is not under attack. I'm glad the poli Sci folks at the State Department and President Biden understand this.

---

Those PoliSci "wonks" in the State Department didnt do **** when Obama was in office. No sanctions after the invasion of Georgia. No sanctions after the invasion of Crimea. And that "crossing the line" with nerve gas threat by Obama had nothing behind it. Zero.

Thats a pretty dismal track record.
And here we are.

dajo9 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

Lots of MAD talk on this thread. NATO is not under attack. America is not under attack. I'm glad the poli Sci folks at the State Department and President Biden understand this.

---

At the end of the day, Ukraine is the Poster Child for what happens when you give up your Nukes.

---

Never give up your nukes

---

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-lesson-of-budapest-hold-on-to-your-nukes-ukraine-russia-invasion-nuclear-weapons-proliferation-11646257487

Unit2Sucks said:

---

Big C said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

Big C said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

Big C said:

---

Sebastabear said:

---

I just want to know if this invasion is over yet. Because first I heard it was never going to happen, then I heard that Putin would stop in the Eastern provinces and of course these same folks now tell me that he'll be done once he takes Ukraine. And it's really all our fault this is happening, because we allowed Ukraine to apply for NATO membership 14 years ago. The fact that those plans were shelved a couple of decades past is irrelevant.

Bottom line sometimes a cigar is a cigar and the sometimes the "fault" lies with the autocratic nut sitting at the end of the 90 foot table who is willing to kills tens of thousands and displace millions to recreate Czarist Russia. It's not Milton Friedman and it's not Ronald Reagan and it's not the Easter Bunny. Not sure we need to really work too hard to figure this one out.

---

Sebastabear, just in case you might've been referencing anything that I posted in the last week or so, please let me be clear on the following...

This is Putin's fault, 100%. He is to blame for this.

It is not the United States' fault or NATO's fault. We are not to blame. That said, maybe NATO could've done some things differently 15-30 years ago, that would've led to us being in a better situation today than we are currently in. That is speculation, but we can speculate without it looking like it somehow detracts from our resolve.

It's like if my daughter went out wearing a "provocative" outfit and a bad guy did something to her. The bad guy would be 100% at fault; my daughter 0%. Still, I would advise her to probably not be dressing like that next time.


Now we're all in quite the pickle: Putin seems mad -- in multiple senses of the word -- and doesn't seem like he's going to back down, lest he lose face. Rather, he will probably keep doubling down. What's the end game? I shudder to think:

The best thing right now that seems reasonably possible would be if people in his own country decide to take him out. Surely he is not the only person in Russia who has significant power and influence.

Another possibility would be if he is rational enough to realize he totally screwed up and accepts some sort of settlement that seems like it allows him to save face.

A third, worse possibility is a protracted fruitless Russian occupation of Ukraine, lasting until Putin is deposed.

Everything else seems worse, unless . . . anybody got any great ideas?

---

How long before you realize we could have just avoided all of this unpleasantness by losing the Cold War?

---

Eons. By the way, what do you see as the end game in all this?

Or, if you want to trade superficial, one-liner mischaracterizations, when historians praised Lincoln for saying, " ... with malice toward none, with charity for all .. ", was your response, "How long before you realize we could have just avoided all of this unpleasantness by losing the Civil War?"

---

I am not sure I understand the analogy. If you are talking about the unpleasantness of the SEC, than sure.

As for the present situation, I don't blame the US or the west for what happened. I blame Putin and his corrupt regime. My hope is that the end game is that we continue to see the Russian people unite against Putin and that after he is deposed a genuine democracy arises out of the ashes and that Russia becomes a real country and not a corrupt terrorist state. It's closer now than ever to happening.

---

Between your thousands of posts on Bear Insider and mine, I'm sure we are both on the same page in believing that words are important and that precise wording counts for something. With that in mind, let me once again say that I agree with you that Putin is to blame for this, not the US/NATO. Worded slightly differently, Putin is at fault here, not the US/NATO.

Sheesh, sometimes I feel like I'm getting grouped into the Donald Trump/Tucker Carlson Camp here.

I agree with you on the desired end game and let's hope it is achieved before this gets even more out of hand than it
already is.

---

I'm not mad at you, just pointing out that a lot of this handwringing is unnecessary. See cbbass' commentary. He's basically saying that anyone with nukes can do anything they want and no one should even try to get in their way. I'm not an expert on foreign policy but that sure sounds like a recipe for impunity for a tyrant. Ukraine doesn't have to lay down for Putin. Moreover, it appears that millions of Russians oppose this war and are now fed up with Putin's regime. This may very well end with an improvement in the world. Of course an even worse dictator may take over Russia but I suspect that an end to sanctions in exchange for a return of comity may be the solution everyone sees. We don't really have anything against the Russian people - it's basically just Putin.

---

That's not what I'm saying.

What I am saying is that we need to be careful in our response. We shouldn't do a no-fly zone or engage with Russian forces directly, and we shouldn't be making assassination attempts.

If we ignore the last 30 years of Russia's history, and refuse to understand Putin's motivations, it'll be nearly impossible to find a relatively peaceful way out of this.

A rat is most dangerous when it's cornered.

cbbass1 said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

Big C said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

Big C said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

Big C said:

---

Sebastabear said:

---

I just want to know if this invasion is over yet. Because first I heard it was never going to happen, then I heard that Putin would stop in the Eastern provinces and of course these same folks now tell me that he'll be done once he takes Ukraine. And it's really all our fault this is happening, because we allowed Ukraine to apply for NATO membership 14 years ago. The fact that those plans were shelved a couple of decades past is irrelevant.

Bottom line sometimes a cigar is a cigar and the sometimes the "fault" lies with the autocratic nut sitting at the end of the 90 foot table who is willing to kills tens of thousands and displace millions to recreate Czarist Russia. It's not Milton Friedman and it's not Ronald Reagan and it's not the Easter Bunny. Not sure we need to really work too hard to figure this one out.

---

Sebastabear, just in case you might've been referencing anything that I posted in the last week or so, please let me be clear on the following...

This is Putin's fault, 100%. He is to blame for this.

It is not the United States' fault or NATO's fault. We are not to blame. That said, maybe NATO could've done some things differently 15-30 years ago, that would've led to us being in a better situation today than we are currently in. That is speculation, but we can speculate without it looking like it somehow detracts from our resolve.

It's like if my daughter went out wearing a "provocative" outfit and a bad guy did something to her. The bad guy would be 100% at fault; my daughter 0%. Still, I would advise her to probably not be dressing like that next time.


Now we're all in quite the pickle: Putin seems mad -- in multiple senses of the word -- and doesn't seem like he's going to back down, lest he lose face. Rather, he will probably keep doubling down. What's the end game? I shudder to think:

The best thing right now that seems reasonably possible would be if people in his own country decide to take him out. Surely he is not the only person in Russia who has significant power and influence.

Another possibility would be if he is rational enough to realize he totally screwed up and accepts some sort of settlement that seems like it allows him to save face.

A third, worse possibility is a protracted fruitless Russian occupation of Ukraine, lasting until Putin is deposed.

Everything else seems worse, unless . . . anybody got any great ideas?

---

How long before you realize we could have just avoided all of this unpleasantness by losing the Cold War?

---

Eons. By the way, what do you see as the end game in all this?

Or, if you want to trade superficial, one-liner mischaracterizations, when historians praised Lincoln for saying, " ... with malice toward none, with charity for all .. ", was your response, "How long before you realize we could have just avoided all of this unpleasantness by losing the Civil War?"

---

I am not sure I understand the analogy. If you are talking about the unpleasantness of the SEC, than sure.

As for the present situation, I don't blame the US or the west for what happened. I blame Putin and his corrupt regime. My hope is that the end game is that we continue to see the Russian people unite against Putin and that after he is deposed a genuine democracy arises out of the ashes and that Russia becomes a real country and not a corrupt terrorist state. It's closer now than ever to happening.

---

Between your thousands of posts on Bear Insider and mine, I'm sure we are both on the same page in believing that words are important and that precise wording counts for something. With that in mind, let me once again say that I agree with you that Putin is to blame for this, not the US/NATO. Worded slightly differently, Putin is at fault here, not the US/NATO.

Sheesh, sometimes I feel like I'm getting grouped into the Donald Trump/Tucker Carlson Camp here.

I agree with you on the desired end game and let's hope it is achieved before this gets even more out of hand than it
already is.

---

I'm not mad at you, just pointing out that a lot of this handwringing is unnecessary. See cbbass' commentary. He's basically saying that anyone with nukes can do anything they want and no one should even try to get in their way. I'm not an expert on foreign policy but that sure sounds like a recipe for impunity for a tyrant. Ukraine doesn't have to lay down for Putin. Moreover, it appears that millions of Russians oppose this war and are now fed up with Putin's regime. This may very well end with an improvement in the world. Of course an even worse dictator may take over Russia but I suspect that an end to sanctions in exchange for a return of comity may be the solution everyone sees. We don't really have anything against the Russian people - it's basically just Putin.

---

That's not what I'm saying.

What I am saying is that we need to be careful in our response. We shouldn't do a no-fly zone or engage with Russian forces directly, and we shouldn't be making assassination attempts.

If we ignore the last 30 years of Russia's history, and refuse to understand Putin's motivations, it'll be nearly impossible to find a relatively peaceful way out of this.

A rat is most dangerous when it's cornered.

---

A cat still wins the vast majority of the time.

dajo9 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

Lots of MAD talk on this thread. NATO is not under attack. America is not under attack. I'm glad the poli Sci folks at the State Department and President Biden understand this.

---

At the end of the day, Ukraine is the Poster Child for what happens when you give up your Nukes.

---

Never give up your nukes

---

I know that's what I've been saying but sanctions are hitting me hard bro. - Kim

Ukrainian citizen takes drone footage of the war in Kherson.

cbbass1 said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

Big C said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

Big C said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

Big C said:

---

Sebastabear said:

---

I just want to know if this invasion is over yet. Because first I heard it was never going to happen, then I heard that Putin would stop in the Eastern provinces and of course these same folks now tell me that he'll be done once he takes Ukraine. And it's really all our fault this is happening, because we allowed Ukraine to apply for NATO membership 14 years ago. The fact that those plans were shelved a couple of decades past is irrelevant.

Bottom line sometimes a cigar is a cigar and the sometimes the "fault" lies with the autocratic nut sitting at the end of the 90 foot table who is willing to kills tens of thousands and displace millions to recreate Czarist Russia. It's not Milton Friedman and it's not Ronald Reagan and it's not the Easter Bunny. Not sure we need to really work too hard to figure this one out.

---

Sebastabear, just in case you might've been referencing anything that I posted in the last week or so, please let me be clear on the following...

This is Putin's fault, 100%. He is to blame for this.

It is not the United States' fault or NATO's fault. We are not to blame. That said, maybe NATO could've done some things differently 15-30 years ago, that would've led to us being in a better situation today than we are currently in. That is speculation, but we can speculate without it looking like it somehow detracts from our resolve.

It's like if my daughter went out wearing a "provocative" outfit and a bad guy did something to her. The bad guy would be 100% at fault; my daughter 0%. Still, I would advise her to probably not be dressing like that next time.


Now we're all in quite the pickle: Putin seems mad -- in multiple senses of the word -- and doesn't seem like he's going to back down, lest he lose face. Rather, he will probably keep doubling down. What's the end game? I shudder to think:

The best thing right now that seems reasonably possible would be if people in his own country decide to take him out. Surely he is not the only person in Russia who has significant power and influence.

Another possibility would be if he is rational enough to realize he totally screwed up and accepts some sort of settlement that seems like it allows him to save face.

A third, worse possibility is a protracted fruitless Russian occupation of Ukraine, lasting until Putin is deposed.

Everything else seems worse, unless . . . anybody got any great ideas?

---

How long before you realize we could have just avoided all of this unpleasantness by losing the Cold War?

---

Eons. By the way, what do you see as the end game in all this?

Or, if you want to trade superficial, one-liner mischaracterizations, when historians praised Lincoln for saying, " ... with malice toward none, with charity for all .. ", was your response, "How long before you realize we could have just avoided all of this unpleasantness by losing the Civil War?"

---

I am not sure I understand the analogy. If you are talking about the unpleasantness of the SEC, than sure.

As for the present situation, I don't blame the US or the west for what happened. I blame Putin and his corrupt regime. My hope is that the end game is that we continue to see the Russian people unite against Putin and that after he is deposed a genuine democracy arises out of the ashes and that Russia becomes a real country and not a corrupt terrorist state. It's closer now than ever to happening.

---

Between your thousands of posts on Bear Insider and mine, I'm sure we are both on the same page in believing that words are important and that precise wording counts for something. With that in mind, let me once again say that I agree with you that Putin is to blame for this, not the US/NATO. Worded slightly differently, Putin is at fault here, not the US/NATO.

Sheesh, sometimes I feel like I'm getting grouped into the Donald Trump/Tucker Carlson Camp here.

I agree with you on the desired end game and let's hope it is achieved before this gets even more out of hand than it
already is.

---

I'm not mad at you, just pointing out that a lot of this handwringing is unnecessary. See cbbass' commentary. He's basically saying that anyone with nukes can do anything they want and no one should even try to get in their way. I'm not an expert on foreign policy but that sure sounds like a recipe for impunity for a tyrant. Ukraine doesn't have to lay down for Putin. Moreover, it appears that millions of Russians oppose this war and are now fed up with Putin's regime. This may very well end with an improvement in the world. Of course an even worse dictator may take over Russia but I suspect that an end to sanctions in exchange for a return of comity may be the solution everyone sees. We don't really have anything against the Russian people - it's basically just Putin.

---

That's not what I'm saying.

What I am saying is that we need to be careful in our response. We shouldn't do a no-fly zone or engage with Russian forces directly, and we shouldn't be making assassination attempts.

If we ignore the last 30 years of Russia's history, and refuse to understand Putin's motivations, it'll be nearly impossible to find a relatively peaceful way out of this.

A rat is most dangerous when it's cornered.

---

Apologies for misstating your position. You referred to Putin considering NATO weapons and bases in border countries to be an "existential threat" and that you were worried about his nukes. That sure seemed to me like an argument in favor of total appeasement, but as you said I misunderstood.

I don't disagree that Ukraine is doing everything they can to draw help from NATO but I don't think there is much risk of that happening now. I also think your position may be clouded by misinformation- like that video you posted earlier which is obviously counterfactual and slanted.

dajo9 said:

---

Lots of MAD talk on this thread. NATO is not under attack. America is not under attack. I'm glad the poli Sci folks at the State Department and President Biden understand this.

---

Obama's response to Russia's invasion of Crimea in March 2014, and Moscow's subsequent support of pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine was economic sanctions.

Although the measures had an impact on the Russian economy, they were seen as woefully inadequate by some Republican lawmakers in Congress. Senator John McCain of Arizona, a harsh critic of Obama's foreign policy, wanted the U.S. to send arms to Ukraine.

But Obama viewed the Ukraine conflict through another lens. As Jeffrey Goldberg, The Atlantic's editor in chief, wrote in the Obama Doctrine: "Obama's theory here is simple: Ukraine is a core Russian interest but not an American one, so Russia will always be able to maintain escalatory dominance there." Indeed, Obama told Jeff: "The fact is that Ukraine, which is a non-NATO country, is going to be vulnerable to military domination by Russia no matter what we do."

https://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2017/02/trump-obama-russia-crimea/516777/

The Two Blunders That Caused the Ukraine War

https://www.wsj.com/articles/cause-ukraine-war-robert-service-moscow-putin-lenin-stalin-history-communism-invasion-kgb-fsb-11646413200

DiabloWags said:

---

The Two Blunders That Caused the Ukraine War

https://www.wsj.com/articles/cause-ukraine-war-robert-service-moscow-putin-lenin-stalin-history-communism-invasion-kgb-fsb-11646413200

---

Someday you will have to realize you still believe some of the same right wing propaganda that gave us Trump

dajo9 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

The Two Blunders That Caused the Ukraine War

https://www.wsj.com/articles/cause-ukraine-war-robert-service-moscow-putin-lenin-stalin-history-communism-invasion-kgb-fsb-11646413200

---

Someday you will have to realize you still believe some of the same right wing propaganda that gave us Trump

---

Based on what I've read and watched on the subject, Ukraine not being a russian puppet state similar to Belarus and Russia's declining demographics is what precipitated the war. Therefore, any discussion about NATO expansion being the reason for the invasion is irrelevant. Putin wants to expand to the old Soviet borders, which are more defensible, and do so before the baby bust of the late 90's fully takes hold.

dajo9 said:

---

Someday you will have to realize you still believe some of the same right wing propaganda that gave us Trump

---

Someday you will have to realize that repeatedly voting for Liberals is a failed strategy.
And that it lead to Trump getting elected to the White House.

Get mad if you want to but Trevor Noah is absolutely 100% correct. pic.twitter.com/NY78Y7OFZd

— ᒪᗩᑎᑕᗴ 🏳️‍🌈 (@LanceUSA70) March 4, 2022

going4roses said:

---

Get mad if you want to but Trevor Noah is absolutely 100% correct. pic.twitter.com/NY78Y7OFZd

— ᒪᗩᑎᑕᗴ 🏳️‍🌈 (@LanceUSA70) March 4, 2022

---

Since every single one of your posts has to do with RACE, I'm not really surprised that it never dawned on you that the reporters were speaking about the rate of literacy in their comparison to countries in sub-Saharan Africa.

South Sudan: 27%
Afghanistan: 28.1%
Niger: 28.7%
Burkina: 28.7%
Mali: 33.3%
Chad: 35.4%
Somalia: 37.8%
Ethiopia: 39%
Guinea: 41%

Ukraine: 99.97%


25 Most Illiterate Countries - WorldAtlas

Cognitive dissonance much ?

Every single one of my posts ? Right Joe Magee

How much are you willing to wager on your statement? Put up or STFU

going4roses said:

---

Get mad if you want to but Trevor Noah is absolutely 100% correct. pic.twitter.com/NY78Y7OFZd

— ᒪᗩᑎᑕᗴ 🏳️‍🌈 (@LanceUSA70) March 4, 2022

---

Yeah, it's pretty hard to spin those comments any way but a bad one.

going4roses said:

---

Cognitive dissonance much ?

Every single one of my posts ? Right Joe Magee

How much are you willing to wager on your statement? Put up or STFU

---

Wager???

You're the guy who has told me that my "reparations" OWED for being a 4th generation Californian and Cal alum from the Class of '82 .... is EVERYTHING.

Good luck with lashing out 24/7.
Being filled with hate wont get you anywhere.

Russian forces are 'decimated' says top UK general



https://mol.im/a/10583981

Russian soldiers' angry mothers accuse Kremlin of 'using' their sons



https://mol.im/a/10584499

Putin's 'lover' hiding out in 'very private and very secure' chalet



https://mol.im/a/10583735

Anarchistbear said:

---

US veterans join fight in Ukraine. This may not end well.

" A lot of veterans, we have a calling to serve, and we trained our whole career for this kind of war," he said. "Sitting by and doing nothing? I had to do that when Afghanistan fell apart, and it weighed heavily on me. I had to act."

All across the United States, small groups of military veterans are gathering, planning and getting passports in order. After years of serving in smoldering occupations, trying to spread democracy in places that had only a tepid interest in it, many are hungry for what they see as a righteous fight to defend freedom against an autocratic aggressor with a conventional and target-rich army. "

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/05/us/american-veterans-volunteer-ukraine-russia.html

---

I think everyone with any kind of military inclination who was born too late to fight in WWII has a kind of longing to serve in a "good war". And I will fully stipulate that war is a horrible evil to be avoided at all costs. But the world hasn't seen anything quite like what Putin is doing in a very long time and there's really no room for a reasonable "both sides" debate here. He invaded a peaceful neighboring country and killed thousands (and counting) and displaced millions of innocents under some thinly veiled fantasy that really boils down to his personal desire to recreate Czarist Russia in the 21st century. His black KGB soul should burn in hell for this and I sincerely hope it does.

But until he meets his Maker and this madness ends, for generations of Americans shaped by the moral and ethical ambiguity (and I'm using that term to be polite) of Vietnam and the invasion of Iraq this is a chance to fight the "good fight." And I fully understand why someone would want to help. Tough to watch this on TV and not want to grab an AK yourself. Every time I see some confused toddler being thrown onto a train or a moving car to escape Putin's shelling I want to scream.

This is brutal.

Lyrics and subtitles start at 30 seconds. https://t.co/OvDi036Yev

— Beau of The Fifth Column (@BeauTFC) March 7, 2022

Sebastabear said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

US veterans join fight in Ukraine. This may not end well.

" A lot of veterans, we have a calling to serve, and we trained our whole career for this kind of war," he said. "Sitting by and doing nothing? I had to do that when Afghanistan fell apart, and it weighed heavily on me. I had to act."

All across the United States, small groups of military veterans are gathering, planning and getting passports in order. After years of serving in smoldering occupations, trying to spread democracy in places that had only a tepid interest in it, many are hungry for what they see as a righteous fight to defend freedom against an autocratic aggressor with a conventional and target-rich army. "

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/05/us/american-veterans-volunteer-ukraine-russia.html

---

I think everyone with any kind of military inclination who was born too late to fight in WWII has a kind of longing to serve in a "good war". And I will fully stipulate that war is a horrible evil to be avoided at all costs. But the world hasn't seen anything quite like what Putin is doing in a very long time and there's really no room for a reasonable "both sides" debate here. He invaded a peaceful neighboring country and killed thousands (and counting) and displaced millions of innocents under some thinly veiled fantasy that really boils down to his personal desire to recreate Czarist Russia in the 21st century. His black KGB soul should burn in hell for this and I sincerely hope it does.

But until he meets his Maker and this madness ends, for generations of Americans shaped by the moral and ethical ambiguity (and I'm using that term to be polite) of Vietnam and the invasion of Iraq this is a chance to fight the "good fight." And I fully understand why someone would want to help. Tough to watch this on TV and not want to grab an AK yourself. Every time I see some confused toddler being thrown onto a train or a moving car to escape Putin's shelling I want to scream.

---

There are lots of ways to help. Poles and Berliners are opening their homes and wallets. But why should Americans fight in a war their own country has committed not to engage in? Forget about you ( or me) we're too old. But if your son and daughter started arranging passport and gear what would you say to them? " Go fight the "good war." ?

Big C said:

---

Anarchistbear said:

---

US veterans join fight in Ukraine. This may not end well.

" A lot of veterans, we have a calling to serve, and we trained our whole career for this kind of war," he said. "Sitting by and doing nothing? I had to do that when Afghanistan fell apart, and it weighed heavily on me. I had to act."

All across the United States, small groups of military veterans are gathering, planning and getting passports in order. After years of serving in smoldering occupations, trying to spread democracy in places that had only a tepid interest in it, many are hungry for what they see as a righteous fight to defend freedom against an autocratic aggressor with a conventional and target-rich army. "

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/05/us/american-veterans-volunteer-ukraine-russia.html

---

It's tough when neither the prospect of driving for Amazon nor working in their warehouse appeals to you and law enforcement isn't hiring... plus they've really fortified the barriers around the Capitol. What the heck else is there to do?!?

---

MUGA

Ukraine war: Russian invasion grinds to a halt



https://mol.im/a/10585145

Military experts: Putin 'finished' after
'foolish' Ukraine invasion



https://mol.im/a/10585727