The Official Russian Invasion of Ukraine Thread

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bearister
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Ukraine war: what we know on day 12 of the Russian invasion


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/07/ukraine-war-russia-what-we-know-so-far-day-12-russian-invasion?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


Russia's war in Ukraine: complete guide in maps, video and pictures


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/07/russia-war-ukraine-complete-guide-maps-video-and-pictures?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
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Eastern Oregon Bear
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Anarchistbear said:

Big C said:

Anarchistbear said:

US veterans join fight in Ukraine. This may not end well.

" A lot of veterans, we have a calling to serve, and we trained our whole career for this kind of war," he said. "Sitting by and doing nothing? I had to do that when Afghanistan fell apart, and it weighed heavily on me. I had to act."

All across the United States, small groups of military veterans are gathering, planning and getting passports in order. After years of serving in smoldering occupations, trying to spread democracy in places that had only a tepid interest in it, many are hungry for what they see as a righteous fight to defend freedom against an autocratic aggressor with a conventional and target-rich army. "

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/05/us/american-veterans-volunteer-ukraine-russia.html



It's tough when neither the prospect of driving for Amazon nor working in their warehouse appeals to you and law enforcement isn't hiring... plus they've really fortified the barriers around the Capitol. What the heck else is there to do?!?


MUGA
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Unit2Sucks
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I'll start by saying I'm very skeptical of the video linked below. But if it's true, doesn't exactly speak well for Russia's chances of successfully holding Ukraine under military occupation. If it's fake, just another great social media operation by Ukraine.


sycasey
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Unit2Sucks said:

I'll start by saying I'm very skeptical of the video linked below. But if it's true, doesn't exactly speak well for Russia's chances of successfully holding Ukraine under military occupation. If it's fake, just another great social media operation by Ukraine.



Regardless of whether or not this video is real, the facts on the ground would also seem to support the idea that the Russian troops are not particularly motivated to win this war. The invasion is constantly getting bogged down.
Sebastabear
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Anarchistbear said:

Sebastabear said:

Anarchistbear said:

US veterans join fight in Ukraine. This may not end well.

" A lot of veterans, we have a calling to serve, and we trained our whole career for this kind of war," he said. "Sitting by and doing nothing? I had to do that when Afghanistan fell apart, and it weighed heavily on me. I had to act."

All across the United States, small groups of military veterans are gathering, planning and getting passports in order. After years of serving in smoldering occupations, trying to spread democracy in places that had only a tepid interest in it, many are hungry for what they see as a righteous fight to defend freedom against an autocratic aggressor with a conventional and target-rich army. "

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/05/us/american-veterans-volunteer-ukraine-russia.html


I think everyone with any kind of military inclination who was born too late to fight in WWII has a kind of longing to serve in a "good war". And I will fully stipulate that war is a horrible evil to be avoided at all costs. But the world hasn't seen anything quite like what Putin is doing in a very long time and there's really no room for a reasonable "both sides" debate here. He invaded a peaceful neighboring country and killed thousands (and counting) and displaced millions of innocents under some thinly veiled fantasy that really boils down to his personal desire to recreate Czarist Russia in the 21st century. His black KGB soul should burn in hell for this and I sincerely hope it does.

But until he meets his Maker and this madness ends, for generations of Americans shaped by the moral and ethical ambiguity (and I'm using that term to be polite) of Vietnam and the invasion of Iraq this is a chance to fight the "good fight." And I fully understand why someone would want to help. Tough to watch this on TV and not want to grab an AK yourself. Every time I see some confused toddler being thrown onto a train or a moving car to escape Putin's shelling I want to scream.



There are lots of ways to help. Poles and Berliners are opening their homes and wallets. But why should Americans fight in a war their own country has committed not to engage in? Forget about you ( or me) we're too old. But if your son and daughter started arranging passport and gear what would you say to them? " Go fight the "good war." ?
Understood. And I'm not saying I agree with this. Just that I understand the motivation and how outraged people are. But what makes America the greatest military power the world has ever seen is our group training, our logistics and superior technology so just parachuting a bunch of random dudes into a war is definitely not going to be like dropping "America" into the war.

It's hard to watch but I think we should all help in the best way we can and that probably doesn't mean a reenactment of the Spanish Civil War (with all due respect to Hemingway, that really wasn't a good idea and didn't have a good outcome even if the individuals were fighting on the "right" side). Personally I'm going all in on the humanitarian aid.
Anarchistbear
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Sebastabear said:

Anarchistbear said:

Sebastabear said:

Anarchistbear said:

US veterans join fight in Ukraine. This may not end well.

" A lot of veterans, we have a calling to serve, and we trained our whole career for this kind of war," he said. "Sitting by and doing nothing? I had to do that when Afghanistan fell apart, and it weighed heavily on me. I had to act."

All across the United States, small groups of military veterans are gathering, planning and getting passports in order. After years of serving in smoldering occupations, trying to spread democracy in places that had only a tepid interest in it, many are hungry for what they see as a righteous fight to defend freedom against an autocratic aggressor with a conventional and target-rich army. "

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/05/us/american-veterans-volunteer-ukraine-russia.html


I think everyone with any kind of military inclination who was born too late to fight in WWII has a kind of longing to serve in a "good war". And I will fully stipulate that war is a horrible evil to be avoided at all costs. But the world hasn't seen anything quite like what Putin is doing in a very long time and there's really no room for a reasonable "both sides" debate here. He invaded a peaceful neighboring country and killed thousands (and counting) and displaced millions of innocents under some thinly veiled fantasy that really boils down to his personal desire to recreate Czarist Russia in the 21st century. His black KGB soul should burn in hell for this and I sincerely hope it does.

But until he meets his Maker and this madness ends, for generations of Americans shaped by the moral and ethical ambiguity (and I'm using that term to be polite) of Vietnam and the invasion of Iraq this is a chance to fight the "good fight." And I fully understand why someone would want to help. Tough to watch this on TV and not want to grab an AK yourself. Every time I see some confused toddler being thrown onto a train or a moving car to escape Putin's shelling I want to scream.



There are lots of ways to help. Poles and Berliners are opening their homes and wallets. But why should Americans fight in a war their own country has committed not to engage in? Forget about you ( or me) we're too old. But if your son and daughter started arranging passport and gear what would you say to them? " Go fight the "good war." ?
Understood. And I'm not saying I agree with this. Just that I understand the motivation and how outraged people are. But what makes America the greatest military power the world has ever seen is our group training, our logistics and superior technology so just parachuting a bunch of random dudes into a war is definitely not going to be like dropping "America" into the war.

It's hard to watch but I think we should all help in the best way we can and that probably doesn't mean a reenactment of the Spanish Civil War (with all due respect to Hemingway, that really wasn't a good idea and didn't have a good outcome even if the individuals were fighting on the "right" side). Personally I'm going all in on the humanitarian aid.


Spain gave us Hitler and Stalin. Aiding the mujahadeen in Afghanistan gave us Bin Laden. The dealings of great nations in the end have little to do with moral superiority and more to do with the chaos of war and hegemony.

Agree of course on the humanitarian aid
going4roses
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DiabloWags said:

going4roses said:

Cognitive dissonance much ?

Every single one of my posts ? Right Joe Magee

How much are you willing to wager on your statement? Put up or STFU




Wager???

You're the guy who has told me that my "reparations" OWED for being a 4th generation Californian and Cal alum from the Class of '82 .... is EVERYTHING.

Good luck with lashing out 24/7.
Being filled with hate wont get you anywhere.






"We can't change what we refuse to acknowledge "
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Is everything racist / about race ?
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One more for you
"What an odd BLESSING it is to be COMPLETELY IGNORANT of what's ACTUALLY HAPPENING IN THE WORLD " !!!

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DiabloWags
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Yawn.
dajo9
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Unit2Sucks said:

I'll start by saying I'm very skeptical of the video linked below. But if it's true, doesn't exactly speak well for Russia's chances of successfully holding Ukraine under military occupation. If it's fake, just another great social media operation by Ukraine.



It is a violation of the Geneva conventions to broadcast POW's. We might say to ourselves, it is ok in this instance. But then we have nothing to say when our enemies broadcast American POW's in the future.
Unit2Sucks
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dajo9 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

I'll start by saying I'm very skeptical of the video linked below. But if it's true, doesn't exactly speak well for Russia's chances of successfully holding Ukraine under military occupation. If it's fake, just another great social media operation by Ukraine.



It is a violation of the Geneva conventions to broadcast POW's. We might say to ourselves, it is ok in this instance. But then we have nothing to say when our enemies broadcast American POW's in the future.
Is it a violation of the Geneva convention if the broadcast is fake?
cbbass1
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dajo9 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

I'll start by saying I'm very skeptical of the video linked below. But if it's true, doesn't exactly speak well for Russia's chances of successfully holding Ukraine under military occupation. If it's fake, just another great social media operation by Ukraine.



It is a violation of the Geneva conventions to broadcast POW's. We might say to ourselves, it is ok in this instance. But then we have nothing to say when our enemies broadcast American POW's in the future.

Despite the circumstances, this looks genuine, and his sentiments match what many people have reported from within Russia.

Looks like Putin has taken very real foreign policy provocations from the U.S. in the expansion of NATO & the EU, but wasn't able to successfully translate the threat in his propaganda within Russia.

One thing for sure, no one in the world can hold a candle to Western propaganda. For the many in Russia who have access to CNN & other Western news, I think Putin's warnings about the U.S./NATO advance were seen as an exaggeration, and Putin "crying wolf". It's difficult to see the genuine humanitarian outpouring of concern & support for the Ukrainian people, and see the U.S. as the "bad guys." But Putin knows that these are the same people & media who supported the invasion & occupation of Iraq, and were never held to account by Americans, nor the rest of the world.

The neo-Nazi militias are still a huge problem in Ukraine, but they're not necessarily associated with the Ukrainian government, and they're strongest in the Eastern regions near Donetsk and Luhansk, where they've been attacking the pro-Russian separatists since 2014.

Where this matters -- a lot -- is Zelensky's conscription & arming of civilians throughout Ukraine. If the apartment buildings were full of unarmed civilians, it would be an easy call for the young, misled Russian soldiers. If they were ordered to fire on unarmed civilians, many would most likely refuse to follow the order, and have mercy on their fellow Slavs.

However, an apartment building full of armed combatants is a different thing altogether, especially if they're shooting and throwing Molotov cocktails. Nobody in that situation wants their last emotion on Earth to be "Dang, I got duped" before they and their fellow soldiers are riddled by bullets, or burned alive. Ask anyone who served in Vietnam.

This POW's seemingly candid talk is encouraging, and hopefully points the way to a peaceful resolution.

And hopefully, it isn't overwhelmed by the calls for U.S. military escalation & intervention, or Putin's removal. It's time for an off-ramp, not backing Putin into a corner.

The opportunists who were pushing for "regime change" all along have been revealing themselves. They shouldn't be the ones who stand in the way of a peaceful solution.

The 'wild card' is China. If the U.S. allows itself to get sucked into a protracted ground war with Russia, China will be in a position to take advantage of our (U.S.) utter dependence on it for manufacturing, and our own economic fragility.
DiabloWags
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cbbass1 said:




The 'wild card' is China. If the U.S. allows itself to get sucked into a protracted ground war with Russia, China will be in a position to take advantage of our (U.S.) utter dependence on it for manufacturing, and our own economic fragility.

Not just that.

You're forgetting marshalling all kinds of military assets away from Taiwan and over towards the Black Sea and the Ukraine.

Xi is just gonna love that.
sycasey
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IMO Putin's propaganda usually works quite well in his home country. The big problem this time is that it's running up, hard, against reality. They really thought Ukraine would fall quickly with minimal resistance. Whoops.
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Over 11,000 Russian troops have been killed since the invasion began, Ukrainian military says | The Week


https://theweek.com/russo-ukrainian-war/1010964/over-11000-russian-troops-have-been-killed-since-the-invasion-began

*If those numbers are even close to being accurate, Russia has lost more soldiers in 10 days than the U.S. lost in Iraq/Afghanistan in 20 years. Those are trench warfare/meat grinder type losses.
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Unit2Sucks
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bearister said:

Russia has lost more soldiers in 10 days than the U.S. lost in Iraq/Afghanistan in 20 years.
That's probably not even counting the soldiers they have literally lost due to shoddy logistics. Putin made the world believe for years that he had a capable military but in just 2 weeks has revealed that it was all smoke and mirrors. Other than the nukes, is anyone afraid of Putin's army?

This is the type of ish I'm talking about. Was Putin really ready for the world to find all this out?

DiabloWags
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Zelensky did a broadcast from his office.
He's not hiding.
bearister
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We are giving the Russians a dose of their own medicine in the Ukraine (like we did in Afghanistan too):

Vietnam War: The critical role of Russian weapons - Russia Beyond


https://www.rbth.com/blogs/2015/04/30/vietnam_war_the_critical_role_of_russian_weapons_42917

Operation Cyclone - Wikipedia


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone
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dimitrig
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bearister said:

Over 11,000 Russian troops have been killed since the invasion began, Ukrainian military says | The Week


https://theweek.com/russo-ukrainian-war/1010964/over-11000-russian-troops-have-been-killed-since-the-invasion-began

*If those numbers are even close to being accurate, Russia has lost more soldiers in 10 days than the U.S. lost in Iraq/Afghanistan in 20 years. Those are trench warfare/meat grinder type losses.

Probably not close to true...

Russians report:

Russian Maj. Gen. Igor Konashenkov said Wednesday that 498 Russian troops had been killed and 1,597 wounded. He also gave casualty numbers for the Ukrainian military: more than 2,870 killed, around 3,700 wounded, and 572 captured.


I am not one to trust Russian facts, but this seems a lot more plausible given the relatively limited confrontations so far.








cbbass1
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bearister said:

Over 11,000 Russian troops have been killed since the invasion began, Ukrainian military says | The Week


https://theweek.com/russo-ukrainian-war/1010964/over-11000-russian-troops-have-been-killed-since-the-invasion-began

*If those numbers are even close to being accurate, Russia has lost more soldiers in 10 days than the U.S. lost in Iraq/Afghanistan in 20 years. Those are trench warfare/meat grinder type losses.
Probably not a reliable source.

Russian general reports 500 Russian troops killed.

I'd say the real number is between 500 and 11,000. Just a guess.
DiabloWags
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I've said this before and I will say it one more time....

This is what happens to a country that gives up its nuclear weapons and capability.

Ukraine will become a poster child when it comes to those seeking nuclear deproliferation.
bearister
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'I can help them': one man's journey from Portland to Ukraine's frontlines


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/mar/08/portland-to-ukraine-frontlines-russia-invasion?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
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concordtom
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McDonalds, Starbucks and coca-cola all departing Russia!
Hundreds of locations, bye bye.
concordtom
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bearister said:

Over 11,000 Russian troops have been killed since the invasion began, Ukrainian military says | The Week


https://theweek.com/russo-ukrainian-war/1010964/over-11000-russian-troops-have-been-killed-since-the-invasion-began

*If those numbers are even close to being accurate, Russia has lost more soldiers in 10 days than the U.S. lost in Iraq/Afghanistan in 20 years. Those are trench warfare/meat grinder type losses.


I just read 2-4K
Anarchistbear
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Three days after Prime Minister Naftali Bennett's meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Moscow, the details are beginning to emerge. According to people who were privy to details about the meeting, the current situation is that Russia has offered a "final" version of its offer to end the crisis, which Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky needs to accept or decline.

The proposal was deemed "difficult" but not "impossible," the sources said. It is worse than what Zelensky would have gotten before the invasion but "the gaps between the sides are not great."

Zelensky can fortify Ukraine's independence but will have to pay a heavy price, the sources said. Assumptions are that he will be forced to give up the contested Donbas region, officially recognize the pro-Russian dissidents in Ukraine, pledge that Ukraine will not join NATO, shrink his army and declare neutrality. If he declines the proposal, the outcome may be terrible: thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of Ukrainians will die and there is a high probability that his country will completely lose its independence.

https://www.jpost.com/international/article-700677
going4roses
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The "if I can't have it my way" has been allowed/coddled to consume this planets mind,body and soul.

The get money no matter costs (deaths) 'cost benefit analysis' versus the precautionary principle will be the end of this planet.
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Sebastabear
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Anarchistbear said:

Three days after Prime Minister Naftali Bennett's meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Moscow, the details are beginning to emerge. According to people who were privy to details about the meeting, the current situation is that Russia has offered a "final" version of its offer to end the crisis, which Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky needs to accept or decline.

The proposal was deemed "difficult" but not "impossible," the sources said. It is worse than what Zelensky would have gotten before the invasion but "the gaps between the sides are not great."

Zelensky can fortify Ukraine's independence but will have to pay a heavy price, the sources said. Assumptions are that he will be forced to give up the contested Donbas region, officially recognize the pro-Russian dissidents in Ukraine, pledge that Ukraine will not join NATO, shrink his army and declare neutrality. If he declines the proposal, the outcome may be terrible: thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of Ukrainians will die and there is a high probability that his country will completely lose its independence.

https://www.jpost.com/international/article-700677
I can't imagine our collective reaction if America was offered a "deal" like that. With a particularly hearty lol at the "shrink the Ukrainian army" stipulation. Yeah, because Vlad the poisoner of underwear would never ever go back on his word and attack Ukraine after it had disarmed itself. I mean there's absolutely no precedent for that . . . Well other than the fact that Russia promised to respect and protect Ukraine back in the 90s in return for giving up their nukes. Yeah other than that one can't think of another case even remotely on point . . .
Anarchistbear
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Sebastabear said:

Anarchistbear said:

Three days after Prime Minister Naftali Bennett's meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Moscow, the details are beginning to emerge. According to people who were privy to details about the meeting, the current situation is that Russia has offered a "final" version of its offer to end the crisis, which Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky needs to accept or decline.

The proposal was deemed "difficult" but not "impossible," the sources said. It is worse than what Zelensky would have gotten before the invasion but "the gaps between the sides are not great."

Zelensky can fortify Ukraine's independence but will have to pay a heavy price, the sources said. Assumptions are that he will be forced to give up the contested Donbas region, officially recognize the pro-Russian dissidents in Ukraine, pledge that Ukraine will not join NATO, shrink his army and declare neutrality. If he declines the proposal, the outcome may be terrible: thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of Ukrainians will die and there is a high probability that his country will completely lose its independence.

https://www.jpost.com/international/article-700677
I can't imagine our collective reaction if America was offered a "deal" like that. With a particularly hearty lol at the "shrink the Ukrainian army" stipulation. Yeah, because Vlad the poisoner of underwear would never ever go back on his word and attack Ukraine after it had disarmed itself. I mean there's absolutely no precedent for that . . . Well other than the fact that Russia promised to respect and protect Ukraine back in the 90s in return for giving up their nukes. Yeah other than that one can't think of another case even remotely on point . . .


We aren't being invaded by a superior army, we don't have a million people leaving our country, nor do we face the prospect of having our culture and country destroyed. I'm not saying Zelensky should take the deal but he has to balance fighting this war on his own with saving his country and people for another day. For a country that has always been a human graveyard it's not an idle decision.
AunBear89
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Wow - you have all the answers. Because you are an edgy anarchist. You put your iced tea glass on Anarchy coasters. . .
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -- (maybe) Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
Anarchistbear
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AunBear89 said:

Wow - you have all the answers. Because you are an edgy anarchist. You put your iced tea glass on Anarchy coasters. . .



My Little AunBear. What have I told you about interrupting the grown ups! . Do you want another spanking?
AunBear89
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If you are so eager to spank someone, maybe you should try a different web site?

Did you get your Anarchy socks yet?
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -- (maybe) Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
Anarchistbear
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AunBear89 said:

If you are so eager to spank someone, maybe you should try a different web site?

Did you get your Anarchy socks yet?



My Little Aun Bear. I am sure there are many sites you could direct me to where you and your lads do your frolicking and slather each other with your signature Roquefort dressing..
Sebastabear
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Anarchistbear said:

Sebastabear said:

Anarchistbear said:

Three days after Prime Minister Naftali Bennett's meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Moscow, the details are beginning to emerge. According to people who were privy to details about the meeting, the current situation is that Russia has offered a "final" version of its offer to end the crisis, which Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky needs to accept or decline.

The proposal was deemed "difficult" but not "impossible," the sources said. It is worse than what Zelensky would have gotten before the invasion but "the gaps between the sides are not great."

Zelensky can fortify Ukraine's independence but will have to pay a heavy price, the sources said. Assumptions are that he will be forced to give up the contested Donbas region, officially recognize the pro-Russian dissidents in Ukraine, pledge that Ukraine will not join NATO, shrink his army and declare neutrality. If he declines the proposal, the outcome may be terrible: thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of Ukrainians will die and there is a high probability that his country will completely lose its independence.

https://www.jpost.com/international/article-700677
I can't imagine our collective reaction if America was offered a "deal" like that. With a particularly hearty lol at the "shrink the Ukrainian army" stipulation. Yeah, because Vlad the poisoner of underwear would never ever go back on his word and attack Ukraine after it had disarmed itself. I mean there's absolutely no precedent for that . . . Well other than the fact that Russia promised to respect and protect Ukraine back in the 90s in return for giving up their nukes. Yeah other than that one can't think of another case even remotely on point . . .


We aren't being invaded by a superior army, we don't have a million people leaving our country, nor do we face the prospect of having our culture and country destroyed. I'm not saying Zelensky should take the deal but he has to balance fighting this war on his own with saving his country and people for another day. For a country that has always been a human graveyard it's not an idle decision.


I think minimizing loss of human life and suffering always has to be the goal. And if for one second I thought Putin would respect this deal and keep the peace I could see where Zelensky would be tempted. But I don't believe ian impartial observer could arrive at the conclusion that this would last longer than the amount of time it took Vlad to fully disarm the Ukrainian people and then grind them under the boot. Ultimately I'm afraid they would wind up in the exact same place except without the eyes of the world watching and without the entire free world's support.

In the words of Maya Angelou when someone tells you who they are you should believe them the first time. Putin has shown the world demonstrably and irrevocably who he is.
sycasey
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Sebastabear said:

Anarchistbear said:

Three days after Prime Minister Naftali Bennett's meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Moscow, the details are beginning to emerge. According to people who were privy to details about the meeting, the current situation is that Russia has offered a "final" version of its offer to end the crisis, which Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky needs to accept or decline.

The proposal was deemed "difficult" but not "impossible," the sources said. It is worse than what Zelensky would have gotten before the invasion but "the gaps between the sides are not great."

Zelensky can fortify Ukraine's independence but will have to pay a heavy price, the sources said. Assumptions are that he will be forced to give up the contested Donbas region, officially recognize the pro-Russian dissidents in Ukraine, pledge that Ukraine will not join NATO, shrink his army and declare neutrality. If he declines the proposal, the outcome may be terrible: thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of Ukrainians will die and there is a high probability that his country will completely lose its independence.

https://www.jpost.com/international/article-700677
I can't imagine our collective reaction if America was offered a "deal" like that. With a particularly hearty lol at the "shrink the Ukrainian army" stipulation. Yeah, because Vlad the poisoner of underwear would never ever go back on his word and attack Ukraine after it had disarmed itself. I mean there's absolutely no precedent for that . . . Well other than the fact that Russia promised to respect and protect Ukraine back in the 90s in return for giving up their nukes. Yeah other than that one can't think of another case even remotely on point . . .

"To keep your country's freedom, please do these things that will make it easier for us to install our own puppet government and control you from abroad."
Anarchistbear
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Sebastabear said:

Anarchistbear said:

Sebastabear said:

Anarchistbear said:

Three days after Prime Minister Naftali Bennett's meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Moscow, the details are beginning to emerge. According to people who were privy to details about the meeting, the current situation is that Russia has offered a "final" version of its offer to end the crisis, which Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky needs to accept or decline.

The proposal was deemed "difficult" but not "impossible," the sources said. It is worse than what Zelensky would have gotten before the invasion but "the gaps between the sides are not great."

Zelensky can fortify Ukraine's independence but will have to pay a heavy price, the sources said. Assumptions are that he will be forced to give up the contested Donbas region, officially recognize the pro-Russian dissidents in Ukraine, pledge that Ukraine will not join NATO, shrink his army and declare neutrality. If he declines the proposal, the outcome may be terrible: thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of Ukrainians will die and there is a high probability that his country will completely lose its independence.

https://www.jpost.com/international/article-700677
I can't imagine our collective reaction if America was offered a "deal" like that. With a particularly hearty lol at the "shrink the Ukrainian army" stipulation. Yeah, because Vlad the poisoner of underwear would never ever go back on his word and attack Ukraine after it had disarmed itself. I mean there's absolutely no precedent for that . . . Well other than the fact that Russia promised to respect and protect Ukraine back in the 90s in return for giving up their nukes. Yeah other than that one can't think of another case even remotely on point . . .


We aren't being invaded by a superior army, we don't have a million people leaving our country, nor do we face the prospect of having our culture and country destroyed. I'm not saying Zelensky should take the deal but he has to balance fighting this war on his own with saving his country and people for another day. For a country that has always been a human graveyard it's not an idle decision.


I think minimizing loss of human life and suffering always has to be the goal. And if for one second I thought Putin would respect this deal and keep the peace I could see where Zelensky would be tempted. But I don't believe ian impartial observer could arrive at the conclusion that this would last longer than the amount of time it took Vlad to fully disarm the Ukrainian people and then grind them under the boot. Ultimately I'm afraid they would wind up in the exact same place except without the eyes of the world watching and without the entire free world's support.

In the words of Maya Angelou when someone tells you who they are you should believe them the first time. Putin has shown the world demonstrably and irrevocably who he is.


Yes, of course,and nobody understands Russians better than Ukranians but it's easy for us to critique it. We haven't had a million people leaving , we aren't fighting or dying. We're watching on television.

The Ukranians have showed remarkable courage but their odds aren't great on their own. At some point it becomes some kind of guerilla resistance or a settlement. Why should they sacrifice themselves if nobody else will? The fact that talks are continuing does lead me to think we may not fully appreciate their situation
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