Ok, that does it. No one gets to post any more on this board until we all go through a remedial geometry class.Cal88 said:golden sloth said:Just because you speak Russian doesn't mean you want to be a part of Russia. Plenty of people in California speak Spanish, very few want to join Mexico, Spain or another spanish speaking country. I was on a date with an Argentinean woman last weekend, she was telling me about growing up in Sao Paulo and Buenos Aires, in both places, if you want a professional job (doctor, lawyer, etc.) you learned English. But again, knowing English doesn't mean you want to join the US or UK. I point that out because one of the high concentration of Russian speaking people appeared to be Kyiv, which obviously rather strongly displayed they did not want to be a part of Russia recently. After centuries of domination by Russia, it would make sense that speaking Russian became common place, but again. that does not mean they want to be apart of Russia.Cal88 said:golden sloth said:Cal88 said:
There was an ongoing war between Donbass separatists and the central Ukrainian government that has been raging since 2014, with 14,000 dead (most of which were Donbass civilians). The frontlines in that war had been stable up to this winter, but the Ukrainian government was preparing to mount a major offensive with up to 100,000 troops massing on that frontline. This is what precipitated the timing of the Russian invasion.
Using an election map to show the country's divisions is not a good argument. Just because someone lost an election, doesn't mean you want to leave the country, or the country is doomed to be split apart. Someone can just as easily show a map of other countries and make the same claims.
Bold part above - that is probably true of Kiev, but certainly not of Crimea, or of the Donetxk or Luhansk oblasts.
You're also missing out the main aspect of the language divide as it relates to Ukraine after 2014, the fact that the use of the Russian language was officially restricted nationwide. How do you think Quebecers, who voted to stay in Canada twice, would feel if the use of French were banned in schools, universities, local TVs and government?!?
Zelensky run on an inclusive platform and vowed to protect language rights in the east and south, he turned 190 degrees after his election, because he is closely allied to the far right. His oligarch protector, Kolomoisky, who has launched Zelensky's political career and built up his Mr Smith Goes to Washington persona is also the major funder of several neo-nazi militias like the Azov Battalion.
Here's a Zelensky's pre-election pro-Russian minority pitch:Wow what a change https://t.co/cOc3yhZJdn
— Fight for the truth (@Fightthetruth69) May 1, 2022
Cal88 said:sycasey said:golden sloth said:One other thing I noticed. Look at the first image, its totally not a good-faith piece of information. Specifically, look at the % splits:Cal88 said:
There was an ongoing war between Donbass separatists and the central Ukrainian government that has been raging since 2014, with 14,000 dead (most of which were Donbass civilians). The frontlines in that war had been stable up to this winter, but the Ukrainian government was preparing to mount a major offensive with up to 100,000 troops massing on that frontline. This is what precipitated the timing of the Russian invasion....
- Over 75%
- 25 - 75%
- 5 - 25%
- Under 5%
The big blob of red you see that takes up maybe 40 - 50% of Ukraine falls in that Red zone, yet when you look at what that color represents, its 25 - 75%. That is literally half of the potential outcomes. Per the image, those zones could be 30% Russian and 70% Ukrainian, yet the way the image is set up implies that the red zones are majority Russian.
Cal88? Presenting biased and misrepresented graphics? No!
If you had a modicum of understanding on the subject, or a somewhat reasonable argument to refute the clear graphic evidence provided by the maps I've presented, which are of independent academic nature, you might have done better than resorting to a dumb personal attack.
Unit2Sucks said:
None of that has anything to do with why Putin invaded Ukraine. Hard for me to imagine you being so naive as to believe their half hearted propaganda. There are more anti semites in the Russian military than in Ukraine and as demonstrates upthread, the Russian disinformation machine is producing laughably bad examples of pretend Ukrainian anti semitic content. It's comical and no reasonably attentive person would fall for it.
What's remarkable about you is that you genuinely seem to adopt a wholehearted world view that is entirely consistent with Putin which requires elaborate and meticulous research replete with graphs, foreign sources, etc and ignore all obvious evidence to the contrary. You believe Putin's propaganda more than the average Russian. It's really enjoyable to have you show up and make these quite ridiculous arguments when the truth is staring everyone in the face. As with all of your other elaborate fanciful notions, you will be proven laughably wrong here as well and people who are paying attention will continue to remind everyone else why you have no credibility.
This is a good read: https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/08/02/russian-disinformation-distorted-reality-in-ukraine-americans-should-take-note-putin-mueller-elections-antisemitism/
Sebastabear said:Ok, that does it. No one gets to post any more on this board until we all go through a remedial geometry class.Cal88 said:
Bold part above - that is probably true of Kiev, but certainly not of Crimea, or of the Donetxk or Luhansk oblasts.
You're also missing out the main aspect of the language divide as it relates to Ukraine after 2014, the fact that the use of the Russian language was officially restricted nationwide. How do you think Quebecers, who voted to stay in Canada twice, would feel if the use of French were banned in schools, universities, local TVs and government?!?
Zelensky run on an inclusive platform and vowed to protect language rights in the east and south, he turned 190 degrees after his election, because he is closely allied to the far right. His oligarch protector, Kolomoisky, who has launched Zelensky's political career and built up his Mr Smith Goes to Washington persona is also the major funder of several neo-nazi militias like the Azov Battalion.
Here's a Zelensky's pre-election pro-Russian minority pitch:Wow what a change https://t.co/cOc3yhZJdn
— Fight for the truth (@Fightthetruth69) May 1, 2022
Wow. You don't say? So how do you feel about doing a full 360? Because that seems to also be a source of confusion.Cal88 said:Sebastabear said:Ok, that does it. No one gets to post any more on this board until we all go through a remedial geometry class.Cal88 said:
Bold part above - that is probably true of Kiev, but certainly not of Crimea, or of the Donetxk or Luhansk oblasts.
You're also missing out the main aspect of the language divide as it relates to Ukraine after 2014, the fact that the use of the Russian language was officially restricted nationwide. How do you think Quebecers, who voted to stay in Canada twice, would feel if the use of French were banned in schools, universities, local TVs and government?!?
Zelensky run on an inclusive platform and vowed to protect language rights in the east and south, he turned 190 degrees after his election, because he is closely allied to the far right. His oligarch protector, Kolomoisky, who has launched Zelensky's political career and built up his Mr Smith Goes to Washington persona is also the major funder of several neo-nazi militias like the Azov Battalion.
Here's a Zelensky's pre-election pro-Russian minority pitch:Wow what a change https://t.co/cOc3yhZJdn
— Fight for the truth (@Fightthetruth69) May 1, 2022
Obviously a typo, but just for your information, because you don't strike me as STEM type, turning 190 degrees means that you're cos(10deg) or 98% away from being in the complete opposite direction.
But why male models?Cal88 said:Unit2Sucks said:
None of that has anything to do with why Putin invaded Ukraine. Hard for me to imagine you being so naive as to believe their half hearted propaganda. There are more anti semites in the Russian military than in Ukraine and as demonstrates upthread, the Russian disinformation machine is producing laughably bad examples of pretend Ukrainian anti semitic content. It's comical and no reasonably attentive person would fall for it.
What's remarkable about you is that you genuinely seem to adopt a wholehearted world view that is entirely consistent with Putin which requires elaborate and meticulous research replete with graphs, foreign sources, etc and ignore all obvious evidence to the contrary. You believe Putin's propaganda more than the average Russian. It's really enjoyable to have you show up and make these quite ridiculous arguments when the truth is staring everyone in the face. As with all of your other elaborate fanciful notions, you will be proven laughably wrong here as well and people who are paying attention will continue to remind everyone else why you have no credibility.
This is a good read: https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/08/02/russian-disinformation-distorted-reality-in-ukraine-americans-should-take-note-putin-mueller-elections-antisemitism/
A Jewish MMA public figure being tortured to death is "pretend Ukrainian anti-semitic content"? And a picture of a t-shirt and Sim cartridges is your proof that there is no nazis in Ukraine, a country where many major thoroughfares in their big cities have recently been renamed after Stepan Bandera, Ukrainian leader of the biggest SS division outside of Nazi Germany, who has massacred tens of thousands of Jewish and Polish civilians in western Ukraine?!?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/kiev-renames-major-street-to-honor-russian-nazi-collaborator/
The graphs I've posted above aren't "meticulous research", they're very basic information about the ethno-linguistic makeup of Ukraine, a salient aspect of the conflict that most casual observers aren't familiar with.
I don't believe Putin propaganda, but I don't believe the stuff from the Rachel Maddows, Hannitys and the other horrible fare that clogs the MSM. This is a good sample of the kind of material that keeps me informed on items like the Ukraine war:
https://consortiumnews.com/2022/04/29/ukraine-the-real-zelensky/
sycasey said:Cal88 said:sycasey said:golden sloth said:One other thing I noticed. Look at the first image, its totally not a good-faith piece of information. Specifically, look at the % splits:Cal88 said:
There was an ongoing war between Donbass separatists and the central Ukrainian government that has been raging since 2014, with 14,000 dead (most of which were Donbass civilians). The frontlines in that war had been stable up to this winter, but the Ukrainian government was preparing to mount a major offensive with up to 100,000 troops massing on that frontline. This is what precipitated the timing of the Russian invasion....
- Over 75%
- 25 - 75%
- 5 - 25%
- Under 5%
The big blob of red you see that takes up maybe 40 - 50% of Ukraine falls in that Red zone, yet when you look at what that color represents, its 25 - 75%. That is literally half of the potential outcomes. Per the image, those zones could be 30% Russian and 70% Ukrainian, yet the way the image is set up implies that the red zones are majority Russian.
Cal88? Presenting biased and misrepresented graphics? No!
If you had a modicum of understanding on the subject, or a somewhat reasonable argument to refute the clear graphic evidence provided by the maps I've presented, which are of independent academic nature, you might have done better than resorting to a dumb personal attack.
Hey bud, earlier in this thread you said you were going to "destroy" my claim that you once posted fake Time Magazine stories about global cooling. When is that happening?
I make fun of you because your arguments are pathetic. Just because people in a particular region voted for a different candidate or speak Russian doesn't mean they want to live under Putin, or have his armies invade their towns. That you would push this line of argument while Mariupol is being besieged and destroyed is ridiculous and disgusting. You are the one justifying death and destruction, not anyone else.
For that, you'll have to ask Jason Kidd.Sebastabear said:Wow. You don't say? So how do you feel about doing a full 360? Because that seems to also be a source of confusion.Cal88 said:Sebastabear said:Ok, that does it. No one gets to post any more on this board until we all go through a remedial geometry class.Cal88 said:
Bold part above - that is probably true of Kiev, but certainly not of Crimea, or of the Donetxk or Luhansk oblasts.
You're also missing out the main aspect of the language divide as it relates to Ukraine after 2014, the fact that the use of the Russian language was officially restricted nationwide. How do you think Quebecers, who voted to stay in Canada twice, would feel if the use of French were banned in schools, universities, local TVs and government?!?
Zelensky run on an inclusive platform and vowed to protect language rights in the east and south, he turned 190 degrees after his election, because he is closely allied to the far right. His oligarch protector, Kolomoisky, who has launched Zelensky's political career and built up his Mr Smith Goes to Washington persona is also the major funder of several neo-nazi militias like the Azov Battalion.
Here's a Zelensky's pre-election pro-Russian minority pitch:Wow what a change https://t.co/cOc3yhZJdn
— Fight for the truth (@Fightthetruth69) May 1, 2022
Obviously a typo, but just for your information, because you don't strike me as STEM type, turning 190 degrees means that you're cos(10deg) or 98% away from being in the complete opposite direction.
Cal88 said:sycasey said:Cal88 said:sycasey said:golden sloth said:One other thing I noticed. Look at the first image, its totally not a good-faith piece of information. Specifically, look at the % splits:Cal88 said:
There was an ongoing war between Donbass separatists and the central Ukrainian government that has been raging since 2014, with 14,000 dead (most of which were Donbass civilians). The frontlines in that war had been stable up to this winter, but the Ukrainian government was preparing to mount a major offensive with up to 100,000 troops massing on that frontline. This is what precipitated the timing of the Russian invasion....
- Over 75%
- 25 - 75%
- 5 - 25%
- Under 5%
The big blob of red you see that takes up maybe 40 - 50% of Ukraine falls in that Red zone, yet when you look at what that color represents, its 25 - 75%. That is literally half of the potential outcomes. Per the image, those zones could be 30% Russian and 70% Ukrainian, yet the way the image is set up implies that the red zones are majority Russian.
Cal88? Presenting biased and misrepresented graphics? No!
If you had a modicum of understanding on the subject, or a somewhat reasonable argument to refute the clear graphic evidence provided by the maps I've presented, which are of independent academic nature, you might have done better than resorting to a dumb personal attack.
Hey bud, earlier in this thread you said you were going to "destroy" my claim that you once posted fake Time Magazine stories about global cooling. When is that happening?
I make fun of you because your arguments are pathetic. Just because people in a particular region voted for a different candidate or speak Russian doesn't mean they want to live under Putin, or have his armies invade their towns. That you would push this line of argument while Mariupol is being besieged and destroyed is ridiculous and disgusting. You are the one justifying death and destruction, not anyone else.
There was plenty of death and destruction in eastern Ukraine before the Russian invasion, 14,000 deaths and 7 years of warfare. This war was precipitated by ethno-linguistic tensions which boiled over after the language laws and the Odessa Massacre, in which about 40 peaceful pro-Russian protestors were burned alive. That violence happened mostly unnoticed in western headlines and was largely forgotten.
⚡️SBU: Russia planned a terrorist attack to blame on Ukraine.
— The Kyiv Independent (@KyivIndependent) May 1, 2022
The Security Service reported that they neutralized Russia’s sabotage reconnaissance group that had been planning to shoot down a passenger plane over Russia or Belarus and blame it on Ukraine and its allies.
Quote:
In some of the harshest remarks since the start of the war in Ukraine, Israeli Foreign Minister Yair Lapid called Lavrov's statement "unforgivable and scandalous and a horrible historical error."
...
Prime Minister Naftali Bennett, who has been more measured in his criticism of Russia's invasion, also condemned Lavrov's comments.
"His words are untrue and their intentions are wrong," he said. "Using the Holocaust of the Jewish people as a political tool must cease immediately."
US Amb to OSCE Mike Carpenter says Russia's plans in the southeast of Ukraine include abductions of local officials; forced disappearances; forcing local populations to use the ruble; and a Sham referenda. "We believe that Russia will try to annex the Donetsk people’s republic." pic.twitter.com/AbSaG5JOiS
— Vivian Salama (@vmsalama) May 2, 2022
Yep, who cares about tens of thousands of deaths and millions of lifes changed forever. BearFarce has a newer, fresher and less awkward partisan beef to obsess and lie about!BearForce2 said:
Move over Ukraine, there is a new thing in town.
Eastern Oregon Bear said:Yep, who cares about tens of thousands of deaths and millions of lifes changed forever. BearFarce has a newer, fresher and less awkward partisan beef to obsess and lie about!BearForce2 said:
Move over Ukraine, there is a new thing in town.
Russia invaded another sovereign country who we have viewed as an ally that we supported with defense and trade, escalating to engaging in killing, targeting, torturing civilians, including kids and senior citizens, and using rape as a tactic. They feel free to escalate as they want in disrupting and breaking international law. Why are we so afraid of escalating? If they don't want escalation, they can just leave Ukraine. I am all for protecting our friends that do not involve putting our kids on the front line. Russia is barely fighting Ukraine. If they caused NATO to join the war, they are done. I doubt they want that. We should stop treating Russia as some unstoppable bully we need to appease.BearForce2 said:Eastern Oregon Bear said:Yep, who cares about tens of thousands of deaths and millions of lifes changed forever. BearFarce has a newer, fresher and less awkward partisan beef to obsess and lie about!BearForce2 said:
Move over Ukraine, there is a new thing in town.
US intelligence, under the direction of Joe Biden's handlers, helped Ukraine sink the Russian flagship, the Moskva, in the Black Sea .
Then they leaked the news to The New York Times and NBC News who gladly reported the news.
NBC and the Times both reported Ukraine could not have struck the ship without the help of U.S. intelligence.
It seems like the Biden admin is itching for another war.
I fail to see how the final sentence follows from the previous.BearForce2 said:Eastern Oregon Bear said:Yep, who cares about tens of thousands of deaths and millions of lifes changed forever. BearFarce has a newer, fresher and less awkward partisan beef to obsess and lie about!BearForce2 said:
Move over Ukraine, there is a new thing in town.
US intelligence, under the direction of Joe Biden's handlers, helped Ukraine sink the Russian flagship, the Moskva, in the Black Sea .
Then they leaked the news to The New York Times and NBC News who gladly reported the news.
NBC and the Times both reported Ukraine could not have struck the ship without the help of U.S. intelligence.
It seems like the Biden admin is itching for another war.
BearForce2 said:Eastern Oregon Bear said:Yep, who cares about tens of thousands of deaths and millions of lifes changed forever. BearFarce has a newer, fresher and less awkward partisan beef to obsess and lie about!BearForce2 said:
Move over Ukraine, there is a new thing in town.
US intelligence, under the direction of Joe Biden's handlers, helped Ukraine sink the Russian flagship, the Moskva, in the Black Sea .
Then they leaked the news to The New York Times and NBC News who gladly reported the news.
NBC and the Times both reported Ukraine could not have struck the ship without the help of U.S. intelligence.
It seems like the Biden admin is itching for another war.
golden sloth said:BearForce2 said:Eastern Oregon Bear said:Yep, who cares about tens of thousands of deaths and millions of lifes changed forever. BearFarce has a newer, fresher and less awkward partisan beef to obsess and lie about!BearForce2 said:
Move over Ukraine, there is a new thing in town.
US intelligence, under the direction of Joe Biden's handlers, helped Ukraine sink the Russian flagship, the Moskva, in the Black Sea .
Then they leaked the news to The New York Times and NBC News who gladly reported the news.
NBC and the Times both reported Ukraine could not have struck the ship without the help of U.S. intelligence.
It seems like the Biden admin is itching for another war.
Should the US stop providing intelligence information to the Ukranians? If we stop helping, we condemn the Ukranians to being erased from future history.
golden sloth said:BearForce2 said:Eastern Oregon Bear said:Yep, who cares about tens of thousands of deaths and millions of lifes changed forever. BearFarce has a newer, fresher and less awkward partisan beef to obsess and lie about!BearForce2 said:
Move over Ukraine, there is a new thing in town.
US intelligence, under the direction of Joe Biden's handlers, helped Ukraine sink the Russian flagship, the Moskva, in the Black Sea .
Then they leaked the news to The New York Times and NBC News who gladly reported the news.
NBC and the Times both reported Ukraine could not have struck the ship without the help of U.S. intelligence.
It seems like the Biden admin is itching for another war.
Should the US stop providing intelligence information to the Ukranians? If we stop helping, we condemn the Ukranians to being erased from future history.
What do you think the cost is? What do you think Russia would actually do to us? Beg us to use our military might to turn the tide further?BearForce2 said:golden sloth said:BearForce2 said:Eastern Oregon Bear said:Yep, who cares about tens of thousands of deaths and millions of lifes changed forever. BearFarce has a newer, fresher and less awkward partisan beef to obsess and lie about!BearForce2 said:
Move over Ukraine, there is a new thing in town.
US intelligence, under the direction of Joe Biden's handlers, helped Ukraine sink the Russian flagship, the Moskva, in the Black Sea .
Then they leaked the news to The New York Times and NBC News who gladly reported the news.
NBC and the Times both reported Ukraine could not have struck the ship without the help of U.S. intelligence.
It seems like the Biden admin is itching for another war.
Should the US stop providing intelligence information to the Ukranians? If we stop helping, we condemn the Ukranians to being erased from future history.
At what cost? It depends on the price tag.
BearForce2 said:golden sloth said:BearForce2 said:Eastern Oregon Bear said:Yep, who cares about tens of thousands of deaths and millions of lifes changed forever. BearFarce has a newer, fresher and less awkward partisan beef to obsess and lie about!BearForce2 said:
Move over Ukraine, there is a new thing in town.
US intelligence, under the direction of Joe Biden's handlers, helped Ukraine sink the Russian flagship, the Moskva, in the Black Sea .
Then they leaked the news to The New York Times and NBC News who gladly reported the news.
NBC and the Times both reported Ukraine could not have struck the ship without the help of U.S. intelligence.
It seems like the Biden admin is itching for another war.
Should the US stop providing intelligence information to the Ukranians? If we stop helping, we condemn the Ukranians to being erased from future history.
At what cost? It depends on the price tag.
This whole war has been an embarrassment for Russia. It is why they engage in terror tactics by targeting civilians because NATO trained Ukrainian solders are outsmarting the Russian military.golden sloth said:BearForce2 said:golden sloth said:BearForce2 said:Eastern Oregon Bear said:Yep, who cares about tens of thousands of deaths and millions of lifes changed forever. BearFarce has a newer, fresher and less awkward partisan beef to obsess and lie about!BearForce2 said:
Move over Ukraine, there is a new thing in town.
US intelligence, under the direction of Joe Biden's handlers, helped Ukraine sink the Russian flagship, the Moskva, in the Black Sea .
Then they leaked the news to The New York Times and NBC News who gladly reported the news.
NBC and the Times both reported Ukraine could not have struck the ship without the help of U.S. intelligence.
It seems like the Biden admin is itching for another war.
Should the US stop providing intelligence information to the Ukranians? If we stop helping, we condemn the Ukranians to being erased from future history.
At what cost? It depends on the price tag.
First, let's not act like there is an obvious right answer and an obvious wrong answer. There isnt.
Second, Russia and Russia alone determines if they use nuclear weapons or if they attack NATO. In fact, a few geopolitical analysts believe Russia had already planned on attacking NATO, they were merely planning on conquering Ukraine first. To pretend we control their actions is incorrect.
And as a side tanget:
I honestly don't know if this is more or less worrisome. When Russia got involved in Syria 60% of their precision guided missiles failed to hit their targets (anything above 20% is considered an utter failure). In fact a few hit Iran (which doesnt even border Syria). Also given one of the major issues facing the russian military is that the equipment was not maintained and therefore doesn't work. I don't know what is scarier, Russia's nuclear weapons being deployed and hitting their targets, or going completely haywire and just everything everywhere all at once.
calbear93 said:This whole war has been an embarrassment for Russia. It is why they engage in terror tactics by targeting civilians because NATO trained Ukrainian solders are outsmarting the Russian military.golden sloth said:BearForce2 said:golden sloth said:BearForce2 said:Eastern Oregon Bear said:Yep, who cares about tens of thousands of deaths and millions of lifes changed forever. BearFarce has a newer, fresher and less awkward partisan beef to obsess and lie about!BearForce2 said:
Move over Ukraine, there is a new thing in town.
US intelligence, under the direction of Joe Biden's handlers, helped Ukraine sink the Russian flagship, the Moskva, in the Black Sea .
Then they leaked the news to The New York Times and NBC News who gladly reported the news.
NBC and the Times both reported Ukraine could not have struck the ship without the help of U.S. intelligence.
It seems like the Biden admin is itching for another war.
Should the US stop providing intelligence information to the Ukranians? If we stop helping, we condemn the Ukranians to being erased from future history.
At what cost? It depends on the price tag.
First, let's not act like there is an obvious right answer and an obvious wrong answer. There isnt.
Second, Russia and Russia alone determines if they use nuclear weapons or if they attack NATO. In fact, a few geopolitical analysts believe Russia had already planned on attacking NATO, they were merely planning on conquering Ukraine first. To pretend we control their actions is incorrect.
And as a side tanget:
I honestly don't know if this is more or less worrisome. When Russia got involved in Syria 60% of their precision guided missiles failed to hit their targets (anything above 20% is considered an utter failure). In fact a few hit Iran (which doesnt even border Syria). Also given one of the major issues facing the russian military is that the equipment was not maintained and therefore doesn't work. I don't know what is scarier, Russia's nuclear weapons being deployed and hitting their targets, or going completely haywire and just everything everywhere all at once.
dimitrig said:calbear93 said:This whole war has been an embarrassment for Russia. It is why they engage in terror tactics by targeting civilians because NATO trained Ukrainian solders are outsmarting the Russian military.golden sloth said:BearForce2 said:golden sloth said:BearForce2 said:Eastern Oregon Bear said:Yep, who cares about tens of thousands of deaths and millions of lifes changed forever. BearFarce has a newer, fresher and less awkward partisan beef to obsess and lie about!BearForce2 said:
Move over Ukraine, there is a new thing in town.
US intelligence, under the direction of Joe Biden's handlers, helped Ukraine sink the Russian flagship, the Moskva, in the Black Sea .
Then they leaked the news to The New York Times and NBC News who gladly reported the news.
NBC and the Times both reported Ukraine could not have struck the ship without the help of U.S. intelligence.
It seems like the Biden admin is itching for another war.
Should the US stop providing intelligence information to the Ukranians? If we stop helping, we condemn the Ukranians to being erased from future history.
At what cost? It depends on the price tag.
First, let's not act like there is an obvious right answer and an obvious wrong answer. There isnt.
Second, Russia and Russia alone determines if they use nuclear weapons or if they attack NATO. In fact, a few geopolitical analysts believe Russia had already planned on attacking NATO, they were merely planning on conquering Ukraine first. To pretend we control their actions is incorrect.
And as a side tanget:
I honestly don't know if this is more or less worrisome. When Russia got involved in Syria 60% of their precision guided missiles failed to hit their targets (anything above 20% is considered an utter failure). In fact a few hit Iran (which doesnt even border Syria). Also given one of the major issues facing the russian military is that the equipment was not maintained and therefore doesn't work. I don't know what is scarier, Russia's nuclear weapons being deployed and hitting their targets, or going completely haywire and just everything everywhere all at once.
It is much easier to defend than attack.
Wait what? We are officially in a proxy war with Russia? Did anyone sign up for this? pic.twitter.com/HriYAz047U
— Eli Stein (@Fight_Back_NYC) May 2, 2022
BearForce2 said:Wait what? We are officially in a proxy war with Russia? Did anyone sign up for this? pic.twitter.com/HriYAz047U
— Eli Stein (@Fight_Back_NYC) May 2, 2022
"We're not just at war to support the Ukrainians. We're fundamentally at war, although somewhat through a proxy, with Russia, and it's important that we win." Rep. Seth Moulton, D-Mass.
Wow. How shocking to learn that you might be in a proxy war with someone when you are sending billions of dollars in military aid to the country they invaded. I mean other than the President who requested the military aid, the US Congress who virtually unanimously approved it and every person on the planet with any access to the news or the internet who could possibly have guessed this meant we were in a proxy war? In other news, yes there is gambling in Casablanca.BearForce2 said:Wait what? We are officially in a proxy war with Russia? Did anyone sign up for this? pic.twitter.com/HriYAz047U
— Eli Stein (@Fight_Back_NYC) May 2, 2022
"We're not just at war to support the Ukrainians. We're fundamentally at war, although somewhat through a proxy, with Russia, and it's important that we win." Rep. Seth Moulton, D-Mass.
Unit2Sucks said:
Cal88 would have fallen for it, too.⚡️SBU: Russia planned a terrorist attack to blame on Ukraine.
— The Kyiv Independent (@KyivIndependent) May 1, 2022
The Security Service reported that they neutralized Russia’s sabotage reconnaissance group that had been planning to shoot down a passenger plane over Russia or Belarus and blame it on Ukraine and its allies.
He also will continue to pretend like Russia cares about anti-semitism and that it's the real reason they're invading a sovereign nation and committing war crimes.
Israel certainly doesn't think so.Quote:
In some of the harshest remarks since the start of the war in Ukraine, Israeli Foreign Minister Yair Lapid called Lavrov's statement "unforgivable and scandalous and a horrible historical error."
...
Prime Minister Naftali Bennett, who has been more measured in his criticism of Russia's invasion, also condemned Lavrov's comments.
"His words are untrue and their intentions are wrong," he said. "Using the Holocaust of the Jewish people as a political tool must cease immediately."
Cal88 said:Unit2Sucks said:
None of that has anything to do with why Putin invaded Ukraine. Hard for me to imagine you being so naive as to believe their half hearted propaganda. There are more anti semites in the Russian military than in Ukraine and as demonstrates upthread, the Russian disinformation machine is producing laughably bad examples of pretend Ukrainian anti semitic content. It's comical and no reasonably attentive person would fall for it.
What's remarkable about you is that you genuinely seem to adopt a wholehearted world view that is entirely consistent with Putin which requires elaborate and meticulous research replete with graphs, foreign sources, etc and ignore all obvious evidence to the contrary. You believe Putin's propaganda more than the average Russian. It's really enjoyable to have you show up and make these quite ridiculous arguments when the truth is staring everyone in the face. As with all of your other elaborate fanciful notions, you will be proven laughably wrong here as well and people who are paying attention will continue to remind everyone else why you have no credibility.
This is a good read: https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/08/02/russian-disinformation-distorted-reality-in-ukraine-americans-should-take-note-putin-mueller-elections-antisemitism/
A Jewish MMA public figure being tortured to death is "pretend Ukrainian anti-semitic content"? And a picture of a t-shirt and Sim cartridges is your proof that there is no nazis in Ukraine, a country where many major thoroughfares in their big cities have recently been renamed after Stepan Bandera, Ukrainian leader of the biggest SS division outside of Nazi Germany, who has massacred tens of thousands of Jewish and Polish civilians in western Ukraine?!?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/kiev-renames-major-street-to-honor-russian-nazi-collaborator/
The graphs I've posted above aren't "meticulous research", they're very basic information about the ethno-linguistic makeup of Ukraine, a salient aspect of the conflict that most casual observers aren't familiar with.
I don't believe Putin propaganda, but I don't believe the stuff from the Rachel Maddows, Hannitys and the other horrible fare that clogs the MSM. This is a good sample of the kind of material that keeps me informed on items like the Ukraine war:
https://consortiumnews.com/2022/04/29/ukraine-the-real-zelensky/
The majority of #Russiagate tweets that link to news sites use mainstream media sources, but some interesting outliers turn up in the form of fringe sites at both ends of the political spectrum (ZeroHedge, Consortium News) as well as good old Russia Today. pic.twitter.com/BNp6jJeeIi
— Conspirador Norteño (@conspirator0) April 27, 2019
True about the war being an embarrassment for Russia.calbear93 said:This whole war has been an embarrassment for Russia. It is why they engage in terror tactics by targeting civilians because NATO trained Ukrainian solders are outsmarting the Russian military.golden sloth said:
First, let's not act like there is an obvious right answer and an obvious wrong answer. There isnt.
Second, Russia and Russia alone determines if they use nuclear weapons or if they attack NATO. In fact, a few geopolitical analysts believe Russia had already planned on attacking NATO, they were merely planning on conquering Ukraine first. To pretend we control their actions is incorrect.
And as a side tanget:
I honestly don't know if this is more or less worrisome. When Russia got involved in Syria 60% of their precision guided missiles failed to hit their targets (anything above 20% is considered an utter failure). In fact a few hit Iran (which doesnt even border Syria). Also given one of the major issues facing the russian military is that the equipment was not maintained and therefore doesn't work. I don't know what is scarier, Russia's nuclear weapons being deployed and hitting their targets, or going completely haywire and just everything everywhere all at once.
cbbass1 said:True about the war being an embarrassment for Russia.calbear93 said:This whole war has been an embarrassment for Russia. It is why they engage in terror tactics by targeting civilians because NATO trained Ukrainian solders are outsmarting the Russian military.golden sloth said:
First, let's not act like there is an obvious right answer and an obvious wrong answer. There isnt.
Second, Russia and Russia alone determines if they use nuclear weapons or if they attack NATO. In fact, a few geopolitical analysts believe Russia had already planned on attacking NATO, they were merely planning on conquering Ukraine first. To pretend we control their actions is incorrect.
And as a side tanget:
I honestly don't know if this is more or less worrisome. When Russia got involved in Syria 60% of their precision guided missiles failed to hit their targets (anything above 20% is considered an utter failure). In fact a few hit Iran (which doesnt even border Syria). Also given one of the major issues facing the russian military is that the equipment was not maintained and therefore doesn't work. I don't know what is scarier, Russia's nuclear weapons being deployed and hitting their targets, or going completely haywire and just everything everywhere all at once.
But I have to disagree about your "targeting civilians" comment. Zelenskyy forced all Ukrainian men 18-60 to stay & fight. When Zelenskyy gave that order, he turned Ukraine's civilians into armed combatants. In the weeks before the invasion, wasn't Azov Battalion training grannies on military rifles near Mariupol?
The Russians dropped a powerful aerial bomb on a school in the village of Belogorivka in Luhansk Region, where 90 people were hiding from shelling. 30 people have been taken out from under the rubble. Ukraine continues saving the people pic.twitter.com/VUaZZoTjfF
— Iuliia Mendel (@IuliiaMendel) May 7, 2022
