Some dissension in the Ukrainian ranks.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/17/europe/zelensky-fires-top-officials-intl/index.html

Unit2Sucks said:

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oski003 said:

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Some dissension in the Ukrainian ranks.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/17/europe/zelensky-fires-top-officials-intl/index.html

---

Zelensky is accusing two of his top officials of treason for collaborating with Russians. I don't know if I would call that dissension.

Somewhat ironically, one of them is the prosecutor general, which is the same role that Biden was sent to Ukraine to convince them to sack a few years ago. I guess Ukraine just can't find a non-corrupt prosecutor.

Of course we don't know whether Zelensky is telling the truth about these officials, but I imagine in time we will find out more.

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Since you can't bash the source, you misstate the article and reimagine what dissension means. Thank you for the morning laugh.

oski003 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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oski003 said:

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Some dissension in the Ukrainian ranks.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/17/europe/zelensky-fires-top-officials-intl/index.html

---

Zelensky is accusing two of his top officials of treason for collaborating with Russians. I don't know if I would call that dissension.

Somewhat ironically, one of them is the prosecutor general, which is the same role that Biden was sent to Ukraine to convince them to sack a few years ago. I guess Ukraine just can't find a non-corrupt prosecutor.

Of course we don't know whether Zelensky is telling the truth about these officials, but I imagine in time we will find out more.

---

Since you can't bash the source, you misstate the article and reimagine what dissension means. Thank you for the morning laugh.

---

How have I misstated the article? Also please explain what you think "dissension" means? I don't think it encompasses having traitors working against your interests or corruption.

I think you've misunderstood a pretty straight forward article but perhaps that's by design.

Unit2Sucks said:

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oski003 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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oski003 said:

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Some dissension in the Ukrainian ranks.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/17/europe/zelensky-fires-top-officials-intl/index.html

---

Zelensky is accusing two of his top officials of treason for collaborating with Russians. I don't know if I would call that dissension.

Somewhat ironically, one of them is the prosecutor general, which is the same role that Biden was sent to Ukraine to convince them to sack a few years ago. I guess Ukraine just can't find a non-corrupt prosecutor.

Of course we don't know whether Zelensky is telling the truth about these officials, but I imagine in time we will find out more.

---

Since you can't bash the source, you misstate the article and reimagine what dissension means. Thank you for the morning laugh.

---

How have I misstated the article? Also please explain what you think "dissension" means? I don't think it encompasses having traitors working against your interests or corruption.

I think you've misunderstood a pretty straight forward article but perhaps that's by design.

---

Man, you are really doubling down on trashing logic to defend the side you feel is morally right. Not the first time.

difference in sentiment or opinion; disagreement.

"For a long enough time, we have been waiting for more concrete and sufficiently radical results from the leaders of these two departments, to clean these two departments of collaborators and state traitors," the deputy head of the Office of the President of Ukraine, Andrii Smyrnov, told Ukrainian television on Monday.

"However, in the sixth month of the war, we continue to find ... packs of these people, in each of these departments," Smyrnov said."

oski003 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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oski003 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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oski003 said:

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Some dissension in the Ukrainian ranks.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/17/europe/zelensky-fires-top-officials-intl/index.html

---

Zelensky is accusing two of his top officials of treason for collaborating with Russians. I don't know if I would call that dissension.

Somewhat ironically, one of them is the prosecutor general, which is the same role that Biden was sent to Ukraine to convince them to sack a few years ago. I guess Ukraine just can't find a non-corrupt prosecutor.

Of course we don't know whether Zelensky is telling the truth about these officials, but I imagine in time we will find out more.

---

Since you can't bash the source, you misstate the article and reimagine what dissension means. Thank you for the morning laugh.

---

How have I misstated the article? Also please explain what you think "dissension" means? I don't think it encompasses having traitors working against your interests or corruption.

I think you've misunderstood a pretty straight forward article but perhaps that's by design.

---

Man, you are really doubling down on trashing logic to defend the side you feel is morally right. Not the first time.

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This is just word salad. I'm just reacting to an article that you shared and mischaracterized. I don't know what side of the Russian invasion and war crime spree you are on, but that doesn't seem particularly relevant to this conversation.

oski003 said:

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difference in sentiment or opinion; disagreement.

"For a long enough time, we have been waiting for more concrete and sufficiently radical results from the leaders of these two departments, to clean these two departments of collaborators and state traitors," the deputy head of the Office of the President of Ukraine, Andrii Smyrnov, told Ukrainian television on Monday.

"However, in the sixth month of the war, we continue to find ... packs of these people, in each of these departments," Smyrnov said."

---

Again, you seem to have trouble understanding the article you posted or you are engaging in bad faith. Zelensky is quite clearly accusing people of collaborating with Russia. That's not dissension, it's treason. Dissension would be people disagreeing with the best way to proceed in defending themselves against Russia's unilateral invasion, not people selling munitions to Russia.

Some treason in the Ukrainian ranks.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/17/europe/zelensky-fires-top-officials-intl/index.html

Please excuse my post where I used the word dissension instead of treason. I don't want to mischaracterize anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My take on the story was that these were Russian plants. It can get a little complicated when so many people who have lived in Ukraine over the past several decades have plenty of roots in, and ties to, Russia/USSR.

Another opportunity for Cal88 and 003 to propagandize Russia. They are so great to gold star families!

You couldn't make this up

Last night Russian state TV ran a report on the unexpected 'benefits' of having your son killed in Ukraine

You can buy a Lada with the compensation given to you by the state! pic.twitter.com/itzuSiSMhC

— Francis Scarr (@francis_scarr) July 18, 2022

Apparently Russian politicians are now blaming their military failure on Ukraine having mutant soldiers created with American biolabs. On the one hand, Cal88 loves a good conspiracy theory that demonizes the US but on the other hand he wants to shake the Russians for not realizing how great they are at war. I mean special military operation. I mean opposing fascism.

Quote:

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Nearly five months into its senseless war against Ukraine, Russia has concocted a wild new explanation for why the Kremlin's plans for a quick takeover fell apart so spectacularlybecause Ukrainian troops were turned into superhuman killing machines during "secret experiments" in American-run biolabs, of course.

Never mind the myriad reports of Russian troops refusing to fight by the thousands, sabotaging their own shoddy equipment and even deliberately wounding themselves to abandon the war, Russian lawmakers claim the real setback for Moscow was "drugged up" Ukrainian soldiers.

That claim was made Monday by two Russian lawmakers heading up a commission to investigate "biolaboratories" in Ukraine, Kommersant reported.

Konstantin Kosachev, the deputy speaker of Russia's Federation Council, and Irina Yarovaya, deputy chair of the State Duma, touted what they described as bombshell findings from the "investigation."

Testing of Ukrainian POWs' blood, they claimed, uncovered "a range of diseases" that suggest they were secretly experimented on "for military purposes."

"And we see: the cruelty and barbarity with which the military personnel of Ukraine behave, the crimes that they commit against the civilian population, those monstrous crimes that they commit against prisoners of war, confirm that this system for the control and creation of a cruel murder machine was implemented under the management of the United States," Yarovaya was quoted telling reporters.

"And those performance enhancing drugs that they are still given in order to completely neutralize the last traces of human consciousness and turn them into the most cruel and deadly monsters also confirm this," she claimed.

Bizarrely, she also claimed that the presence of Hepatitis A antibodies in Ukrainian prisoners' blood was proof of an American biolabs conspiracy, since a former health minister for Ukraine was a dual Ukrainian-American citizen who had worked to acquire drugs for the treatment of hepatitis in the country.

"It is quite possible that this was about testing these drugs on military personnel," Yarovaya said.

The claims appeared to be a new take on the biolabs conspiracy theory that Russia's Defense Ministry has routinely rolled out to try and justify the war.

While the conspiracy theory dates all the way back to the Soviet Union, it has been amplified more frequently by Kremlin figures after the Feb. 24 invasion, as Moscow's initial claim that it invaded Ukraine in order to "de-Nazify" a country led by a Jewish president failed to gain much traction beyond its own domestic propaganda.

The latest iteration appears to be aimed at explaining away Russia's military setbacks by way of mutant Ukrainian troops.

---

I'm a bit dumbfounded by the gap between what's portrayed in the literature that you've posted above (which reads more like creative writing than serious news), and what's really happening on the ground in Ukraine. Ukrainian troops are getting levelled, and have been dying at a rate of 500-600/day the last two months.

The grim reality of this conflict is that it has become an artillery duel, in which one side is using about 20 times as many shells as the other. What do you think the outcome will be given this basic fact?Which side do you think is going to be demoralized in that kind of battle? I have provided you with serious western sources above that corroborate this basic assessment.

The Russian army is a ground juggernaut that has been hitting its stride for the last couple of months. The Ukrainian army has put up a heroic resistance early on, but they are simply facing a stronger, deeper opponent who is waging this war on its own terms. The Ukrainians are already very thin at the front, with battalions being replenished by poorly equipped men with minimal training and most of all, little in terms of firepower volume on their side, and virtually no air support. This is not a good situation.

It is indeed a very sad state of affairs, because as long as there is this erroneously wishful perception of glorious Ukrainian victories and Russian military ineptitude/demoralization, the war will continue to rage on, with disastrous consequences for Ukraine.

Zelensky's bunch are going to keep this up as long as the billions and hardware keeps flowing. The firing/demoting of his childhood pal head of the SBU is a result of the mounting anger in Ukraine at the body count, as well as the US/NATO being furious at top of the line equipment being sold off to the Russians in Slav to Slav frontline deals (Caesars and M777s confirmed, HIMARS alleged).

The Russians are going to grind it out all the way to the Dniepr, taking over nearly all of the eastern bank, and they will push across the southwestern bank cutting off Odessa. This is where they are likely to be by the next mud season, which starts in mid-October.

Another 30,000-50,000 dead Ukrainian soldiers, unless someone puts forward a political solution. That initiative is likely to come from western Europe, due to the enormous economic cost that the region is going to be facing. The problem is that the worst of it is going to hit this winter/spring, by then the Russians will have done their damage.

To nobody's surprise you continue to demonize the victims of a war of unilateral aggression. You have no trouble glorifying Russia and refuse to say even one negative thing about their role in the war.

I hope there is something in it for you because if not I feel sorry for you for having been duped to believe that Russia's aggression is justified while Ukraine's defense is not.

Cal88 said:

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I'm a bit dumbfounded by the gap between what's portrayed in the literature that you've posted above (which reads more like creative writing than serious news), and what's really happening on the ground in Ukraine. Ukrainian troops are getting levelled, and have been dying at a rate of 500-600/day the last two months.

The grim reality of this conflict is that it has become an artillery duel, in which one side is using about 20 times as many shells as the other. What do you think the outcome will be given this basic fact?Which side do you think is going to be demoralized in that kind of battle? I have provided you with serious western sources above that corroborate this basic assessment.

The Russian army is a ground juggernaut that has been hitting its stride for the last couple of months. The Ukrainian army has put up a heroic resistance early on, but they are simply facing a stronger, deeper opponent who is waging this war on its own terms. The Ukrainians are already very thin at the front, with battalions being replenished by poorly equipped men with minimal training and most of all, little in terms of firepower volume on their side, and virtually no air support. This is not a good situation.

It is indeed a very sad state of affairs, because as long as there is this erroneously wishful perception of glorious Ukrainian victories and Russian military ineptitude/demoralization, the war will continue to rage on, with disastrous consequences for Ukraine.

Zelensky's bunch are going to keep this up as long as the billions and hardware keeps flowing. The firing/demoting of his childhood pal head of the SBU is a result of the mounting anger in Ukraine at the body count, as well as the US/NATO being furious at top of the line equipment being sold off to the Russians in Slav to Slav frontline deals (Caesars and M777s confirmed, HIMARS alleged).

The Russians are going to grind it out all the way to the Dniepr, taking over nearly all of the eastern bank, and they will push across the southwestern bank cutting off Odessa. This is where they are likely to be by the next mud season, which starts in mid-October.

Another 30,000-50,000 dead Ukrainian soldiers, unless someone puts forward a political solution. That initiative is likely to come from western Europe, due to the enormous economic cost that the region is going to be facing. The problem is that the worst of it is going to hit this winter/spring, by then the Russians will have done their damage.

---

Just so I understand,, should all of the Eastern European countries also just surrender to Russia preemptively now to avoid having their people killed by the Russian military? Maybe we can take Canada. Is it possible that Ukrainians would rather fight and die than allow a bully country to annex and colonize them?

calbear93 said:

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Cal88 said:

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I'm a bit dumbfounded by the gap between what's portrayed in the literature that you've posted above (which reads more like creative writing than serious news), and what's really happening on the ground in Ukraine. Ukrainian troops are getting levelled, and have been dying at a rate of 500-600/day the last two months.

The grim reality of this conflict is that it has become an artillery duel, in which one side is using about 20 times as many shells as the other. What do you think the outcome will be given this basic fact?Which side do you think is going to be demoralized in that kind of battle? I have provided you with serious western sources above that corroborate this basic assessment.

The Russian army is a ground juggernaut that has been hitting its stride for the last couple of months. The Ukrainian army has put up a heroic resistance early on, but they are simply facing a stronger, deeper opponent who is waging this war on its own terms. The Ukrainians are already very thin at the front, with battalions being replenished by poorly equipped men with minimal training and most of all, little in terms of firepower volume on their side, and virtually no air support. This is not a good situation.

It is indeed a very sad state of affairs, because as long as there is this erroneously wishful perception of glorious Ukrainian victories and Russian military ineptitude/demoralization, the war will continue to rage on, with disastrous consequences for Ukraine.

Zelensky's bunch are going to keep this up as long as the billions and hardware keeps flowing. The firing/demoting of his childhood pal head of the SBU is a result of the mounting anger in Ukraine at the body count, as well as the US/NATO being furious at top of the line equipment being sold off to the Russians in Slav to Slav frontline deals (Caesars and M777s confirmed, HIMARS alleged).

The Russians are going to grind it out all the way to the Dniepr, taking over nearly all of the eastern bank, and they will push across the southwestern bank cutting off Odessa. This is where they are likely to be by the next mud season, which starts in mid-October.

Another 30,000-50,000 dead Ukrainian soldiers, unless someone puts forward a political solution. That initiative is likely to come from western Europe, due to the enormous economic cost that the region is going to be facing. The problem is that the worst of it is going to hit this winter/spring, by then the Russians will have done their damage.

---

Just so I understand,, should all of the Eastern European countries also just surrender to Russia preemptively now to avoid having their people killed by the Russian military? Maybe we can take Canada. Is it possible that Ukrainians would rather fight and die than allow a bully country to annex and colonize them?

---

They should be so lucky. According to Cal88 anyway.

Unit2Sucks said:

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calbear93 said:

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Cal88 said:

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I'm a bit dumbfounded by the gap between what's portrayed in the literature that you've posted above (which reads more like creative writing than serious news), and what's really happening on the ground in Ukraine. Ukrainian troops are getting levelled, and have been dying at a rate of 500-600/day the last two months.

The grim reality of this conflict is that it has become an artillery duel, in which one side is using about 20 times as many shells as the other. What do you think the outcome will be given this basic fact?Which side do you think is going to be demoralized in that kind of battle? I have provided you with serious western sources above that corroborate this basic assessment.

The Russian army is a ground juggernaut that has been hitting its stride for the last couple of months. The Ukrainian army has put up a heroic resistance early on, but they are simply facing a stronger, deeper opponent who is waging this war on its own terms. The Ukrainians are already very thin at the front, with battalions being replenished by poorly equipped men with minimal training and most of all, little in terms of firepower volume on their side, and virtually no air support. This is not a good situation.

It is indeed a very sad state of affairs, because as long as there is this erroneously wishful perception of glorious Ukrainian victories and Russian military ineptitude/demoralization, the war will continue to rage on, with disastrous consequences for Ukraine.

Zelensky's bunch are going to keep this up as long as the billions and hardware keeps flowing. The firing/demoting of his childhood pal head of the SBU is a result of the mounting anger in Ukraine at the body count, as well as the US/NATO being furious at top of the line equipment being sold off to the Russians in Slav to Slav frontline deals (Caesars and M777s confirmed, HIMARS alleged).

The Russians are going to grind it out all the way to the Dniepr, taking over nearly all of the eastern bank, and they will push across the southwestern bank cutting off Odessa. This is where they are likely to be by the next mud season, which starts in mid-October.

Another 30,000-50,000 dead Ukrainian soldiers, unless someone puts forward a political solution. That initiative is likely to come from western Europe, due to the enormous economic cost that the region is going to be facing. The problem is that the worst of it is going to hit this winter/spring, by then the Russians will have done their damage.

---

Just so I understand,, should all of the Eastern European countries also just surrender to Russia preemptively now to avoid having their people killed by the Russian military? Maybe we can take Canada. Is it possible that Ukrainians would rather fight and die than allow a bully country to annex and colonize them?

---

They should be so lucky. According to Cal88 anyway.

---

Cal88 is a pro-Russia sympathizer from Ukraine so just realize that he has that slant when you read what he writes.

There is no military solution to this conflict, at least one that is going to favor Ukraine, for serious military observers, the outcome is not much in doubt.

These are/were the political outcomes of this conflict, and their timeline:

1- Political solution before the Russian invasion, 2020-2021, aka Minsk II Agreements:
Cease fire, local demilitarization. Some autonomy for the Donbass oblasts of Donetsk and Luhansk, more decentralized government, along the lines of reforms adopted in Belgium and Canada to accommodate for cultural/linguistic minorities.

Result: body count stops at 14,000 who died between 2014 and 2021. Ukraine still the largest country in Europe, potentially on the way up with a peace dividend.

Borders:

Ukraine concedes Crimea, but retains some authority over the eastern side of Donbass.

2- Last minute settlement in February 22. Those were the conditions put forth by Russia, and relayed by German Chancellor Scholtz:
-Ukraine concedes Crimea
-Ukraine stays neutral, out of NATO (Austrian/Finnish model)
-Donbass gets autonomy, similar to Iraqi Kurdistan.

War averted. Borders are the same as above.

3- Current political settlement, Summer 22. Essentially what Kissinger, Mearsheimer or Chomsky have been advocating.

-Ukraine stays neutral, NATO out (same as above)
-Ukraine concedes Crimea, and land bridge to Crimea, losing Mariupol and most of the two Donbass oblasts.



The Russians would take this deal. Sucks for Ukraine, but if they take that L, they retain 80%+ of their territory, hold on to Odessa, and their coastline up to Kherson, as well as the second largest city of Kharkov. And the body count stops, with the Ukrainian cities and infrastructure still in decent shape. Ukraine has some breathing room and a good future, with funds to rebuild.

4- NATO/Zelensky reject potential deal above, because aggression shouldn't be rewarded, and NATO wonderweapons and Ukrainian spirit will win the day. War goes on - and becomes more and more one-sided.

Russia plows on, takes over all of "Novorossyia", annexes region encompassing roughly 40%+ of Ukraine, (and over 2/3 of its GDP) taking the entire coastline, Kharkov, Zaporizhia and possibly Dnipro. They will not take more territory as the remainder of the country is much more hostile to them and would not be "digestible".

Another 50,000-100,000 dead, several cities destroyed, and we end up with this map by the Summer of 23, or possibly earlier:



This is the sober, realistic assessment.

A pragmatic leader with his country's best interests and the lives of his citizens in mind would have taken the first or second option and called it a day.

Those are the choices that smaller countries adjacent to major world powers have to live with. Taiwan cannot declare independence, they will be crushed and annexed within a year or two by China, no ifs, ands or buts. Mexico cannot set up Chinese military bases in Monterey or Baja, the US would go to war over it.

This is how the world is today, and how it's always been, save for the aberration of the post-Soviet era in the last three decades, where the US was the undisputied global hegemon. That's the clear and sober message that analysts like Mearsheimer have tried in vain to convey.

How much does Putin pay Cal88 to call Russia a major world power?

It's a ****hole petro state kleptocracy with nukes. Without nukes, it would pose no threat to the real world powers. There are three kinds of people in Russia. Those who benefit from the fascist oligarchy, those who are brainwashed to believe Putin's propaganda and those who would flee if given the opportunity. This war and the toll on poor Russians is converting people into the latter category and will serve to further destabilize Russia, which will cause Putin (or his successor depending on when he succumbs to his health problems) to crack down even further on the populace through even more extreme fascism.

I have no doubt we will continue to see Cal88 ignore any criticism of Putin or Russia because he believes in the fairy tales they use to brainwash useful idiots.

calbear93 said:

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Cal88 said:

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I'm a bit dumbfounded by the gap between what's portrayed in the literature that you've posted above (which reads more like creative writing than serious news), and what's really happening on the ground in Ukraine. Ukrainian troops are getting levelled, and have been dying at a rate of 500-600/day the last two months.

The grim reality of this conflict is that it has become an artillery duel, in which one side is using about 20 times as many shells as the other. What do you think the outcome will be given this basic fact?Which side do you think is going to be demoralized in that kind of battle? I have provided you with serious western sources above that corroborate this basic assessment.

The Russian army is a ground juggernaut that has been hitting its stride for the last couple of months. The Ukrainian army has put up a heroic resistance early on, but they are simply facing a stronger, deeper opponent who is waging this war on its own terms. The Ukrainians are already very thin at the front, with battalions being replenished by poorly equipped men with minimal training and most of all, little in terms of firepower volume on their side, and virtually no air support. This is not a good situation.

It is indeed a very sad state of affairs, because as long as there is this erroneously wishful perception of glorious Ukrainian victories and Russian military ineptitude/demoralization, the war will continue to rage on, with disastrous consequences for Ukraine.

Zelensky's bunch are going to keep this up as long as the billions and hardware keeps flowing. The firing/demoting of his childhood pal head of the SBU is a result of the mounting anger in Ukraine at the body count, as well as the US/NATO being furious at top of the line equipment being sold off to the Russians in Slav to Slav frontline deals (Caesars and M777s confirmed, HIMARS alleged).

The Russians are going to grind it out all the way to the Dniepr, taking over nearly all of the eastern bank, and they will push across the southwestern bank cutting off Odessa. This is where they are likely to be by the next mud season, which starts in mid-October.

Another 30,000-50,000 dead Ukrainian soldiers, unless someone puts forward a political solution. That initiative is likely to come from western Europe, due to the enormous economic cost that the region is going to be facing. The problem is that the worst of it is going to hit this winter/spring, by then the Russians will have done their damage.

---

Just so I understand,, should all of the Eastern European countries also just surrender to Russia preemptively now to avoid having their people killed by the Russian military? Maybe we can take Canada. Is it possible that Ukrainians would rather fight and die than allow a bully country to annex and colonize them?

---

Most Ukrainians do not want to fight, they are stuck in the middle of this bloody debacle, their troops are getting slaughtered literally by the thousand every week, their 100km deep Maginot-like network of layered fortifications in the Donbass, which they have spent 8 years building, is being systematically dismantled, they are getting down to the last layer of Slovyansk-Kramatorsk.

Most Ukrainians as well would not have fought has there not been this level of military investment from NATO. They would have simply applied Minsk II, and the carnage would have been limited to the 14,000 who died between 2014 and 2021. Instead they were promised western wonderweapons which were going to turn the war into a Russian tank Javelin safari.

When that didn't work, we brought in the smart artillery, from the US, France, UK, Italy, Norway, Holland. Too little too late there as well. Next we brought in the HIMARS and LMRS (which Ukraine had plenty of at the start of the war but lost most of them since). All these escalations could do, as well as the next ones (F15s and F16s), is to raise the cost for Russia (and needless to say for Ukraine too).

This war should have been avoided, and would have been avoided had there not been a political vacuum within Europe (Merkel's retirement, Macron's incompetence, Johnson's petulance). No adults on the continent.

The ~80,000-strong better soldiers trained and equipped by NATO over the last 7-8 years have already been reduced by half, Ukraine has been recently sending more conscripts with bare basic training to the meat grinder. Many of the soldiers who were eager to duke it out with the Russians a few months ago are already gone. Most of the Ukrainians dying at the frontline don't even see the Russians, nearly 3/4 are getting killed by artillery fire.

At what point do you tap out?!?

The ugly side of this story is that Ukraine is being used as a pawn in the Great Chessboard of Eurasian geopolitics. This is the sober reality here, the world of big league geopolitics is a cynical one, with a veneer of Wilsonian idealism that is skilfully fed by the media to build up consent for this war.

calbear93 said:

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Cal88 said:

---

I'm a bit dumbfounded by the gap between what's portrayed in the literature that you've posted above (which reads more like creative writing than serious news), and what's really happening on the ground in Ukraine. Ukrainian troops are getting levelled, and have been dying at a rate of 500-600/day the last two months.

The grim reality of this conflict is that it has become an artillery duel, in which one side is using about 20 times as many shells as the other. What do you think the outcome will be given this basic fact?Which side do you think is going to be demoralized in that kind of battle? I have provided you with serious western sources above that corroborate this basic assessment.

The Russian army is a ground juggernaut that has been hitting its stride for the last couple of months. The Ukrainian army has put up a heroic resistance early on, but they are simply facing a stronger, deeper opponent who is waging this war on its own terms. The Ukrainians are already very thin at the front, with battalions being replenished by poorly equipped men with minimal training and most of all, little in terms of firepower volume on their side, and virtually no air support. This is not a good situation.

It is indeed a very sad state of affairs, because as long as there is this erroneously wishful perception of glorious Ukrainian victories and Russian military ineptitude/demoralization, the war will continue to rage on, with disastrous consequences for Ukraine.

Zelensky's bunch are going to keep this up as long as the billions and hardware keeps flowing. The firing/demoting of his childhood pal head of the SBU is a result of the mounting anger in Ukraine at the body count, as well as the US/NATO being furious at top of the line equipment being sold off to the Russians in Slav to Slav frontline deals (Caesars and M777s confirmed, HIMARS alleged).

The Russians are going to grind it out all the way to the Dniepr, taking over nearly all of the eastern bank, and they will push across the southwestern bank cutting off Odessa. This is where they are likely to be by the next mud season, which starts in mid-October.

Another 30,000-50,000 dead Ukrainian soldiers, unless someone puts forward a political solution. That initiative is likely to come from western Europe, due to the enormous economic cost that the region is going to be facing. The problem is that the worst of it is going to hit this winter/spring, by then the Russians will have done their damage.

---

Just so I understand,, should all of the Eastern European countries also just surrender to Russia preemptively now to avoid having their people killed by the Russian military?

---

He won't say it outright, but it's pretty clear that is what he thinks.

sycasey said:

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calbear93 said:

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Cal88 said:

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I'm a bit dumbfounded by the gap between what's portrayed in the literature that you've posted above (which reads more like creative writing than serious news), and what's really happening on the ground in Ukraine. Ukrainian troops are getting levelled, and have been dying at a rate of 500-600/day the last two months.

The grim reality of this conflict is that it has become an artillery duel, in which one side is using about 20 times as many shells as the other. What do you think the outcome will be given this basic fact?Which side do you think is going to be demoralized in that kind of battle? I have provided you with serious western sources above that corroborate this basic assessment.

The Russian army is a ground juggernaut that has been hitting its stride for the last couple of months. The Ukrainian army has put up a heroic resistance early on, but they are simply facing a stronger, deeper opponent who is waging this war on its own terms. The Ukrainians are already very thin at the front, with battalions being replenished by poorly equipped men with minimal training and most of all, little in terms of firepower volume on their side, and virtually no air support. This is not a good situation.

It is indeed a very sad state of affairs, because as long as there is this erroneously wishful perception of glorious Ukrainian victories and Russian military ineptitude/demoralization, the war will continue to rage on, with disastrous consequences for Ukraine.

Zelensky's bunch are going to keep this up as long as the billions and hardware keeps flowing. The firing/demoting of his childhood pal head of the SBU is a result of the mounting anger in Ukraine at the body count, as well as the US/NATO being furious at top of the line equipment being sold off to the Russians in Slav to Slav frontline deals (Caesars and M777s confirmed, HIMARS alleged).

The Russians are going to grind it out all the way to the Dniepr, taking over nearly all of the eastern bank, and they will push across the southwestern bank cutting off Odessa. This is where they are likely to be by the next mud season, which starts in mid-October.

Another 30,000-50,000 dead Ukrainian soldiers, unless someone puts forward a political solution. That initiative is likely to come from western Europe, due to the enormous economic cost that the region is going to be facing. The problem is that the worst of it is going to hit this winter/spring, by then the Russians will have done their damage.

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Just so I understand,, should all of the Eastern European countries also just surrender to Russia preemptively now to avoid having their people killed by the Russian military?

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He won't say it outright, but it's pretty clear that is what he thinks.

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Like Mearsheimer, Cal88 thinks he believes in "offensive realism", which would means he ignores right and wrong in state action. Except he demonizes Ukraine and still manages to defend and glorify Russia. He likes to talk about this unprovoked war being like Nebraska and Oklahoma but in reality if this were football he would blame the defense for the team he doesn't like if they make any attempt to prevent their opponent from scoring.

Unit2Sucks said:

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sycasey said:

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calbear93 said:

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Cal88 said:

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I'm a bit dumbfounded by the gap between what's portrayed in the literature that you've posted above (which reads more like creative writing than serious news), and what's really happening on the ground in Ukraine. Ukrainian troops are getting levelled, and have been dying at a rate of 500-600/day the last two months.

The grim reality of this conflict is that it has become an artillery duel, in which one side is using about 20 times as many shells as the other. What do you think the outcome will be given this basic fact?Which side do you think is going to be demoralized in that kind of battle? I have provided you with serious western sources above that corroborate this basic assessment.

The Russian army is a ground juggernaut that has been hitting its stride for the last couple of months. The Ukrainian army has put up a heroic resistance early on, but they are simply facing a stronger, deeper opponent who is waging this war on its own terms. The Ukrainians are already very thin at the front, with battalions being replenished by poorly equipped men with minimal training and most of all, little in terms of firepower volume on their side, and virtually no air support. This is not a good situation.

It is indeed a very sad state of affairs, because as long as there is this erroneously wishful perception of glorious Ukrainian victories and Russian military ineptitude/demoralization, the war will continue to rage on, with disastrous consequences for Ukraine.

Zelensky's bunch are going to keep this up as long as the billions and hardware keeps flowing. The firing/demoting of his childhood pal head of the SBU is a result of the mounting anger in Ukraine at the body count, as well as the US/NATO being furious at top of the line equipment being sold off to the Russians in Slav to Slav frontline deals (Caesars and M777s confirmed, HIMARS alleged).

The Russians are going to grind it out all the way to the Dniepr, taking over nearly all of the eastern bank, and they will push across the southwestern bank cutting off Odessa. This is where they are likely to be by the next mud season, which starts in mid-October.

Another 30,000-50,000 dead Ukrainian soldiers, unless someone puts forward a political solution. That initiative is likely to come from western Europe, due to the enormous economic cost that the region is going to be facing. The problem is that the worst of it is going to hit this winter/spring, by then the Russians will have done their damage.

---

Just so I understand,, should all of the Eastern European countries also just surrender to Russia preemptively now to avoid having their people killed by the Russian military?

---

He won't say it outright, but it's pretty clear that is what he thinks.

---

Like Mearsheimer, Cal88 thinks he believes in "offensive realism", which would means he ignores right and wrong in state action. Except he demonizes Ukraine and still manages to defend and glorify Russia. He likes to talk about this unprovoked war being like Nebraska and Oklahoma but in reality if this were football he would blame the defense for the team he doesn't like if they make any attempt to prevent their opponent from scoring.

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It's like victim shaming. One doesn't have to be a perfect person in order not to be deserving of being victimized of a heinous crime, and Russia attacking a sovereign and peaceful country and targeting civilians to break the will of the leaders is a heinous crime. The answer to that isn't appeasement and, as we see even now, they will not be satisfied with appeasement anyway.

Since the start of the war with Russia, the Biden administration has mostly ignored Ukraine's corruption history. Now, questions have resurfaced about its suitability as a recipient of massive infusions of aid. https://t.co/M7PAvJsXdI

— NPR (@NPR) July 21, 2022

Russian agents with the help of Cal88 have taken over NPR. "It's a delicate issue for the Biden administration".

BearForce2 said:

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Countries are calling for greater tracking of arms to Ukraine to stop weapons sales to Europe’s black market https://t.co/beUKFKxAkO

— Financial Times (@FinancialTimes) July 13, 2022

Zelensky's OLIGARCHS have been *reselling* the arms we've been supplying him on the black market. And Europol, the EU's FBI, has known about this since April!

Our government knew about this and we're still sending money over.

https://www.ft.com/content/bce78c78-b899-4dd2-b3a0-69d789b8aee8

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U.S. "Defense" Contractors: "The more, the merrier!"

What could go wrong? (:-o

Just to reiterate the point that Russia is the obvious and clear bad guy in the conflict, and that they cannot be trusted with regards to any cease fire or peace deal they would sign. This also reiterates the point that russia is full of **** and the invasion is not about denazification, ethnic russian minorities, or bio labs, and that this is a war of conquest and colonization with the end goal of eradicating Ukraine as a people, country and culture.

Russia targets Ukrainian grain exports a day after they sign a deal to allow peaceful grain exports.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-pledges-more-military-aid-ukraine-peace-seems-far-off-2022-07-22/

Russia is running out of precision guided munitions and has resorted to using some of its most advanced surface to air missiles against ground targets and they are performing poorly, because Russian. Makes them more vulnerable to counter attacks and can't really be replaced under current sanctions. They are also quite expensive and Ukraine has destroyed quite a lot of their launchers (~$120M each).

I'm sure Cal88 will find a way to pretend that this is a positive for his mother russia and a testament to their military might, but even thebulgarianmilitary.com (one of his favorite authentic sources on the Russian war) has talked about this.

There is an easy answer for all this - Russia could simply cease this stupid war at any time. But Cal88 will remind us that the victims of unprovoked aggression can at any time stop resisting and allow the aggressor to have its way. He's probably preparing a lengthy post with numerous made up charts and graphics explaining why every other country in Russia's "sphere of influence" should allow Russia to run roughshod over it.

BearForce2 said:

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The walls are closing in on Russia just like they are for Trump.

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Wow - rooting for the worst and most criminal president (IQ45) AND for a deranged totalitarian who invaded his neighbor (IQ45's lover boy Putin). You really know how to pick the wrong side of history. I'm guessing you were a fan of Betamax and Zune? How much did you invest in Theranos?

AunBear89 said:

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BearForce2 said:

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The walls are closing in on Russia just like they are for Trump.

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Wow - rooting for the worst and most criminal president (IQ45) AND for a deranged totalitarian who invaded his neighbor (IQ45's lover boy Putin). You really know how to pick the wrong side of history. I'm guessing you were a fan of Betamax and Zune? How much did you invest in Theranos?

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Is BF2 rooting for Putin? Are you so simple that you view refutal of pro-Ukrainian info to be cheering for Putin?