Russia targeting civilians again.

31 missiles launched into Kyiv today.

Maternity ward hit in Vilniansk.

Russia launches more strikes at Ukrainian civilians and energy grid (yahoo.com)

Russia is in free fall. Has no friends and economy is rapidly approaching the cliff. Even state propaganda has lost faith, but some Putin apologists are holding to their ridiculous positions.

Nikol Pashinyan refused to sign a declaration following the Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) summit.

In fact, it means that the CSTO has collapsed completely.

Putin dropped his pen, Lukashenko is shocked. pic.twitter.com/lqPwusW4Gi

— Anton Gerashchenko (@Gerashchenko_en) November 24, 2022

🇷🇺 - Sanctions against Russia are very much working [updated with latest data]
• Real GDP, retail trade and vehicle manufacturing are all dropping off a cliff
• Russia is heading towards ~4% recession in 2022 and in 2023, complicating financing of war in Ukraine pic.twitter.com/Tdm3bMkU4z

— Agathe Demarais (@AgatheDemarais) November 24, 2022

Unit2Sucks said:

---

Russia is in free fall. Has no friends and economy is rapidly approaching the cliff. Even state propaganda has lost faith, but some Putin apologists are holding to their ridiculous positions.

Nikol Pashinyan refused to sign a declaration following the Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) summit.

In fact, it means that the CSTO has collapsed completely.

Putin dropped his pen, Lukashenko is shocked. pic.twitter.com/lqPwusW4Gi

— Anton Gerashchenko (@Gerashchenko_en) November 24, 2022

🇷🇺 - Sanctions against Russia are very much working [updated with latest data]
• Real GDP, retail trade and vehicle manufacturing are all dropping off a cliff
• Russia is heading towards ~4% recession in 2022 and in 2023, complicating financing of war in Ukraine pic.twitter.com/Tdm3bMkU4z

— Agathe Demarais (@AgatheDemarais) November 24, 2022

---

Regardless of what happens in Ukraine with the additional deployment of russian troops, Russia has already lost the war.

Their international position has been weakened as evidenced by Armenia no longer trusting Russia to be their security guarantor per the CSTA. No one believes Russia can project power anymore as all their military force is being directed to Ukraine or has been spent.

On the economic front, its does not matter how much money Russia has if they cant use that money to acquire or produce the weapons and materials they need to wage war. Russia's economy has proven it is unable to produce the necessary defense materials.

Further Russia's perceived adversaries have gotten stronger as sweden and Finland joined NATO, and america reconfirmed their commitment to the alliance. Russia has become China's puppet on the international stage, reiterating Chinese positions as they are dependent upon their income and markets for any sense of normalcy.

Point being Russia's position before the war will be stronger than their position after, regardless of what happens in Ukraine. Therefore, they have already lost.

golden sloth said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

Russia is in free fall. Has no friends and economy is rapidly approaching the cliff. Even state propaganda has lost faith, but some Putin apologists are holding to their ridiculous positions.

Nikol Pashinyan refused to sign a declaration following the Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) summit.

In fact, it means that the CSTO has collapsed completely.

Putin dropped his pen, Lukashenko is shocked. pic.twitter.com/lqPwusW4Gi

— Anton Gerashchenko (@Gerashchenko_en) November 24, 2022

🇷🇺 - Sanctions against Russia are very much working [updated with latest data]
• Real GDP, retail trade and vehicle manufacturing are all dropping off a cliff
• Russia is heading towards ~4% recession in 2022 and in 2023, complicating financing of war in Ukraine pic.twitter.com/Tdm3bMkU4z

— Agathe Demarais (@AgatheDemarais) November 24, 2022

---

Regardless of what happens in Ukraine with the additional deployment of russian troops, Russia has already lost the war.

Their international position has been weakened as evidenced by Armenia no longer trusting Russia to be their security guarantor per the CSTA. No one believes Russia can project power anymore as all their military force is being directed to Ukraine or has been spent.

On the economic front, its does not matter how much money Russia has if they cant use that money to acquire or produce the weapons and materials they need to wage war. Russia's economy has proven it is unable to produce the necessary defense materials.

Further Russia's perceived adversaries have gotten stronger as sweden and Finland joined NATO, and america reconfirmed their commitment to the alliance. Russia has become China's puppet on the international stage, reiterating Chinese positions as they are dependent upon their income and markets for any sense of normalcy.

Point being Russia's position before the war will be stronger than their position after, regardless of what happens in Ukraine. Therefore, they have already lost.

---

Yep. And something for China to think about as well. Attacking a weaker neighbor isn't all it's cracked up to be - if the global coalitionof democracies remains committed.

The traditional Russian way of fighting wars is to just throw waves of people into the meat grinder, and this seems no different. But fighting an offensive war is very different from a defensive one.

Russia has also fared pretty well on the other two fronts, economic and diplomatic fronts.

Its currency has been stable at the 60/$ since May, it has virtually no debt, and deep reserves, even accounting for the quarter trillion $ confiscated by the US and EU, which only constitute about a third of Russian reserves. Russia`s auto and civil aviation industries will rebound after being nationalized, with China plugging the gaps for parts they can no longer get.

On the diplomatic front, Russia is being cut off by the West, along with Japan and mabe S. Korea. The rest of the world, constituting about 85% of the global population and a small majority of the world economy (as well as the bulk of global economic growth) is still with Russia. The BRICS are expanding, with Iran and Argentina set to join and other important global players like Saudi Arabia and Indonesia also expressing interest in joining. Indonesia has stated its desire to continue having commercial and diplomatic relations with Russia, as did India.

Russia is also prying Turkey off the western alliance, a hugely strategic country, far more important and relevant than Sweden or Finland, as the anchor of western Asia, the Black Sea and the east Mediterranean. This was the result of a long diplomatic campaign, Russia has bent over backwards to accommodate Erdogan`s whims, and has been helped by US neocons being hostile to him, and the US arming of Kurds in Syria and Iraq, whom the Turks have accused of being behind the recent terrorist bombing of Istiklal st. in Instanbul.

Finally, the western coalition against Russia is likely to unravel next year as a lot of European countries are facing an unprecedented energy and inflation crisis. Countries like Italy or France, which aren`t as ideologically invested in war with Russia are likely to break rank.

For all these reasons above, and because Ukraine is in a good situation after the Kherson gains, and above all in order to stave further losses and great hardship to its people, Ukraine should sue for peace now. I don`t think they will, and once the Russians get rolling, they won`t either, they will instead push to have the same kind of leverage they enjoyed in the first couple of months of the war.

So we`re likely to have a new wave of Ukrainian refugees, millions more abandoning cities that are completely unlivable in winter without power.

New poll signals Americans are growing tired of support for Ukraine without diplomacy as the war against Russia drags on

• A new poll suggests Americans are growing weary as the US supports Ukraine in its war against Russia.
• The poll found that a majority of Americans want the US to pursue diplomatic negotiations to end the war ASAP.
• The poll also showed that many Americans are concerned about the financial costs of the conflict.
  
  

A new poll suggests that many Americans are growing weary as the US government continues its support of Ukraine in its war with Russia and want to see diplomatic efforts to end the war if aid is to continue.
According to a poll conducted by the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft and Data for Progress, 57% of likely voters strongly or somewhat support the US pursuing diplomatic negotiations as soon as possible to end the war in Ukraine, even if it requires Ukraine making compromises with Russia. Just 32% of respondents were strongly or somewhat opposed to this.

And nearly half of the respondents (47%) said they only support the continuation of US military aid to Ukraine if the US is involved in ongoing diplomacy to end the war, while 41% said they support the continuation of US military aid to Ukraine whether the US is involved in ongoing diplomacy or not.

The Biden administration and Congress need to do more diplomatically to help end the war, according to 49% of likely voters, while 37% said they have done enough in this regard, the poll showed.

"Americans recognize what many in Washington don't: Russia's war in Ukraine is more likely to end at the negotiating table than on the battlefield. And there is a brewing skepticism of Washington's approach to this war, which has been heavy on tough talk and military aid, but light on diplomatic strategy and engagement," said Trita Parsi, executive vice president at the Quincy Institute.

https://news.yahoo.com/poll-signals-americans-growing-tired-140000496.html

Cal88 said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

Non-US, non-traditional news sources tell the story of some pretty intense fighting in eastern Ukraine with hot fronts in the north, south and middle. Some reports indicate some fairly terrible practices by Russia, such as having prisoners on the front lines, established military further back with orders to shoot deserters. Further reports indicate Russia is sending those troops into full frontal assaults of established / entrenched Ukrainian positions and suffering massive losses.

---

It`s exactly what Ukraine has been doing, that`s how they managed to push back Russians from the right bank in Kherson. In every battle Russia was facing the prospect of being outnumbered and taking large losses, they have retreated in order to limit their casualties. That`s how Ukraine managed to take large chunks of land in short periods, they were the party that was throwing the kitchen sink into the fray.

Ukrainian KIAs are much higher than Russia`s. Notice that official Ukrainian figures for those aren`t being widely published. The only recent somewhat reliable data point we have was from a recent declaration by Milley, who said that the Russians and Ukrainians both lost around 100,000 men. This should be interpreted as a wartime statement, an absolute floor for Ukrainian KIAs, and a ceiling for Russians KIA. I think the actual figures are around 50k-60k for Russia and 125k for Ukraine. As well for the Russians, the Donbass armies have borne a disproportionate percentage of their losses.

The Russian philosophy for waging mobile war is to trade land for troops, conceding territory in order to limit losses whenever they are outnumbered or outgunned. It`s a strategy that`s straight out of Mongol military doctrine, based on the steppe landscape and sheer massive size of their land. They`ve used this tactic successfully in order to defeat the largest and most powerful armies from the 19th and 20th century, Napoleon`s and Hitler`s.

Ukraine also has a very large number of MIAs, in good part because their state doesn`t have to compensate MIA widows and families at the same level as those officially widowed, and some of the that money can be siphoned off by corrupt high-level military administrators, the same circuits that resell western weaponry on the black market. A CBS documentary, which was yanked off, estimated that up to 70% of weapons shipped to Ukraine don`t make it to the front, finding their way to places like Azerbaijan, Libya or Syria.

Indications are that Russia has around 550,000 troops that are going to be split on the 3 main fronts (N, E and S) to launch a major big arrow offensive campaign mid-winter after the ground is frozen, and after a bombing campaign focused on destroying Ukrainian infrastructure and massed troops. The threat here is for Russia to cut off the Ukrainian army on the left bank of the Dniepr by bombing all bridges, they would outnumber Ukrainian troops, which would be left without reinforcements.

This is a good rundown of the ongoing campaign of attrition:

---

This is complete bollacks but I'm not going to take my time to refute such obvious garbage.

Cal88 said:

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Big C said:

---

Cal88, to get an accurate sense of Russia's general situation, I am going to take your assessment and that of the US mainstream media and draw a line right down the middle between the two. I bet that will not be far off.

---

That`s a fair assessment.

---

Cal88 admitting he has a pro Russia bias

oski003 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

Big C said:

---

Cal88, to get an accurate sense of Russia's general situation, I am going to take your assessment and that of the US mainstream media and draw a line right down the middle between the two. I bet that will not be far off.

---

That`s a fair assessment.

---

Cal88 admitting he has a pro Russia bias

---

It is a known fact that western sources are pro Nato propaganda and many non-Western sources are pro Russia propaganda. Is this news to you?

---

I didn't say anything about Western and non-Western sources.

dajo9 said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

Big C said:

---

Cal88, to get an accurate sense of Russia's general situation, I am going to take your assessment and that of the US mainstream media and draw a line right down the middle between the two. I bet that will not be far off.

---

That`s a fair assessment.

---

Cal88 admitting he has a pro Russia bias

---

My bias is driven by reality, yours, by a kind of misguided form of nationalism that is promoted in wartime. Perhaps a few years from now this will be seen as the useless war that it is, a proxy war against Russia using Ukrainians as fodder, the same way most people have changed their views on the Iraq war today.

My brother was in Ukraine last week, helped part of his extended family, including his wife`s 90yo aunt from Dnipropetrosk get out of the country. They are bracing for a very difficult winter.

Cal88 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

Big C said:

---

Cal88, to get an accurate sense of Russia's general situation, I am going to take your assessment and that of the US mainstream media and draw a line right down the middle between the two. I bet that will not be far off.

---

That`s a fair assessment.

---

Cal88 admitting he has a pro Russia bias

---

My bias is driven by reality, yours, by a kind of misguided form of nationalism that is promoted in wartime. Perhaps a few years from now this will be seen as the useless war that it is, a proxy war against Russia using Ukrainians as fodder, the same way most people have changed their views on the Iraq war today.

---

I doubt it. We started the Iraq war. Russia started this one.

The Donbass war started in 2014 with the Maidan coup. Before Vlad rolled into Ukraine in February, there were 14,000 deaths already.

This escalation was entirely preventable.

Cal88 said:

---

The Donbass war started in 2014 with the Maidan coup. Before Vlad rolled into Ukraine in February, there were 14,000 deaths already.

This escalation was entirely preventable.

---

The Donbas war started when Russia funded a bunch of separatist groups to cause trouble because they didn't like that their guy got thrown out of office.

sycasey said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

The Donbass war started in 2014 with the Maidan coup. Before Vlad rolled into Ukraine in February, there were 14,000 deaths already.

This escalation was entirely preventable.

---

The Donbas war started when Russia funded a bunch of separatist groups to cause trouble because they didn't like that their guy got thrown out of office.

---

Somehow these groups held out against the 2nd largest standing army in Europe for 8 years?!?

The only reason the Donbass rebels were able to hold out is that they represented local aspirations, and because their rebellion was very harshly repressed by the central government, causing the great majority of local conscripts to defect. That`s why since then the great majority of troops stationed in russophone cities like Mariupol or Odessa are made up of conscripts and militias from central and western Ukraine.

This is how it all started, and why it went on, described by an independent British journalist. His take is the same as that of other European independent journalists who were present in Ukraine earlier last decade:

This is how I explain the 8 year war in Donbass to my British friends. I find it a pretty good analogy. Imagine if an English nationalist gov took power in London. And announced the suppression of Scottish culture…. Like ukr did to its Russian pop in 2014. What would happen?

— Johnny miller (@johnnyjmils) November 22, 2022

thread:
"The Scots would take to the streets in protest. And then what if the English Defence League started pulling down Scottish statues with the acquiescence of the government? That's what happened in Ukraine.

And then if English nationalists killed dozens of Scottish protestors with no recriminations from the authorities, like what happened in Odessa. Scottish people/authorities would get scared/angry and rise up.

And then if the British army went north to quell the uprising, met resistance and started bombing Edinburgh and Glasgow, like what Ukraine did to Donestk and Luhansk….

Find this analogy unbelievable? That's how Donbass people felt when Ukraine started bombing them in 2014. I was here. They couldn't believe it! "Why is our own government bombing us!" It's the same disbelief Scots would feel!

After this bombing even most pro-unionists would turn against the union, Scots in the army would defect and you would have civil war. That's what happened in Donbass.

An interesting side note. Glasgow is like Donetsk. If you think that even a modern English army would easily conquer Scotland, then you haven't been to Glasgow. Fierce people!

Scots would be motivated to fight and defend their land. English wouldn't. Most English people, particularly in the north wouldn't want to go and fight their brotherly Scottish people. That's a major reason why Donbass was able to hold out for eight years.

The propagandists scream Russia, but it was extremism and ultra-nationalism, fuelled by outside forces that was the embryo of this war. "

Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

The Donbass war started in 2014 with the Maidan coup. Before Vlad rolled into Ukraine in February, there were 14,000 deaths already.

This escalation was entirely preventable.

---

The Donbas war started when Russia funded a bunch of separatist groups to cause trouble because they didn't like that their guy got thrown out of office.

---

Somehow these groups held out against the 2nd largest standing army in Europe for 8 years?!?

The only reason the Donbass rebels were able to hold out is that they represented local aspirations, and because their rebellion was very harshly repressed by the central government, causing the great majority of local conscripts to defect. That`s why since then the great majority of troops stationed in russophone cities like Mariupol or Odessa are made up of conscripts and militias from central and western Ukraine.

This is how it all started, and why it went on, described by an independent British journalist. His take is the same as that of other European independent journalists who were present in Ukraine earlier last decade:

This is how I explain the 8 year war in Donbass to my British friends. I find it a pretty good analogy. Imagine if an English nationalist gov took power in London. And announced the suppression of Scottish culture…. Like ukr did to its Russian pop in 2014. What would happen?

— Johnny miller (@johnnyjmils) November 22, 2022

thread:
"The Scots would take to the streets in protest. And then what if the English Defence League started pulling down Scottish statues with the acquiescence of the government? That's what happened in Ukraine.

And then if English nationalists killed dozens of Scottish protestors with no recriminations from the authorities, like what happened in Odessa. Scottish people/authorities would get scared/angry and rise up.

And then if the British army went north to quell the uprising, met resistance and started bombing Edinburgh and Glasgow, like what Ukraine did to Donestk and Luhansk….

Find this analogy unbelievable? That's how Donbass people felt when Ukraine started bombing them in 2014. I was here. They couldn't believe it! "Why is our own government bombing us!" It's the same disbelief Scots would feel!

After this bombing even most pro-unionists would turn against the union, Scots in the army would defect and you would have civil war. That's what happened in Donbass.

An interesting side note. Glasgow is like Donetsk. If you think that even a modern English army would easily conquer Scotland, then you haven't been to Glasgow. Fierce people!

Scots would be motivated to fight and defend their land. English wouldn't. Most English people, particularly in the north wouldn't want to go and fight their brotherly Scottish people. That's a major reason why Donbass was able to hold out for eight years.

The propagandists scream Russia, but it was extremism and ultra-nationalism, fuelled by outside forces that was the embryo of this war. "

---

LOL. "Iran state-affiliated media." Great source!

They were able to hold out because the Russian government was propping them up. Pretty simple.

dajo9 said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

Big C said:

---

Cal88, to get an accurate sense of Russia's general situation, I am going to take your assessment and that of the US mainstream media and draw a line right down the middle between the two. I bet that will not be far off.

---

That`s a fair assessment.

---

Cal88 admitting he has a pro Russia bias

---

My bias is driven by reality, yours, by a kind of misguided form of nationalism that is promoted in wartime. Perhaps a few years from now this will be seen as the useless war that it is, a proxy war against Russia using Ukrainians as fodder, the same way most people have changed their views on the Iraq war today.

My brother was in Ukraine last week, helped part of his extended family, including his wife`s 90yo aunt from Dnipropetrosk get out of the country. They are bracing for a very difficult winter.

---

You just said a more accurate view than yours would be a shift towards mainstream media. That doesn't sound like reality to me.

My views about the Iraq War have never changed.

---

You support the current US occupation of 1/3 of Syria, the war in Syria is pretty much the Iraq war repackaged. We have to go in because there is a bad guy gassing his people, so we go in, carpet-bomb cities like Raqqa in order to save them, and we take the oil, burn the crops. My Lai, agent orange, repackaged as a human rights mission.

Most people especially on the Dem side today (party which has recently taken the pro-war mantle from the Reps) have a hard time imagining that the MSM reporting on Ukraine could be completely biased to the point where it essentially boils down to wartime propaganda, that's the context of my post above.

These items posted above are false, in fact most of these apply to Ukrainian govt/army:

-Russia is specifically targeting civilians, bombing maternity wards etc
-Russia has Stalin-style enforcers shooting soldiers reluctant to fight in the back
-Russia is "throwing bodies" into the front
-Russia is running out of weapons
-Russia is isolated in the world community, and its economy is collapsing
-Russia is occupying the Donbass, Crimea against the will of the local population

sycasey said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

The Donbass war started in 2014 with the Maidan coup. Before Vlad rolled into Ukraine in February, there were 14,000 deaths already.

This escalation was entirely preventable.

---

The Donbas war started when Russia funded a bunch of separatist groups to cause trouble because they didn't like that their guy got thrown out of office.

---

Somehow these groups held out against the 2nd largest standing army in Europe for 8 years?!?

The only reason the Donbass rebels were able to hold out is that they represented local aspirations, and because their rebellion was very harshly repressed by the central government, causing the great majority of local conscripts to defect. That`s why since then the great majority of troops stationed in russophone cities like Mariupol or Odessa are made up of conscripts and militias from central and western Ukraine.

This is how it all started, and why it went on, described by an independent British journalist. His take is the same as that of other European independent journalists who were present in Ukraine earlier last decade:

This is how I explain the 8 year war in Donbass to my British friends. I find it a pretty good analogy. Imagine if an English nationalist gov took power in London. And announced the suppression of Scottish culture…. Like ukr did to its Russian pop in 2014. What would happen?

— Johnny miller (@johnnyjmils) November 22, 2022

thread:
"The Scots would take to the streets in protest. And then what if the English Defence League started pulling down Scottish statues with the acquiescence of the government? That's what happened in Ukraine.

And then if English nationalists killed dozens of Scottish protestors with no recriminations from the authorities, like what happened in Odessa. Scottish people/authorities would get scared/angry and rise up.

And then if the British army went north to quell the uprising, met resistance and started bombing Edinburgh and Glasgow, like what Ukraine did to Donestk and Luhansk….

Find this analogy unbelievable? That's how Donbass people felt when Ukraine started bombing them in 2014. I was here. They couldn't believe it! "Why is our own government bombing us!" It's the same disbelief Scots would feel!

After this bombing even most pro-unionists would turn against the union, Scots in the army would defect and you would have civil war. That's what happened in Donbass.

An interesting side note. Glasgow is like Donetsk. If you think that even a modern English army would easily conquer Scotland, then you haven't been to Glasgow. Fierce people!

Scots would be motivated to fight and defend their land. English wouldn't. Most English people, particularly in the north wouldn't want to go and fight their brotherly Scottish people. That's a major reason why Donbass was able to hold out for eight years.

The propagandists scream Russia, but it was extremism and ultra-nationalism, fuelled by outside forces that was the embryo of this war. "

---

LOL. "Iran state-affiliated media." Great source!

They were able to hold out because the Russian government was propping them up. Pretty simple.

---

You're not going to hold a job at CNN, Fox, BBC or Sky if you report on what is actually went on in the Donbass. I could provide other independent sources who aren't affiliated in any way to any state-funded news agencies.

The fighting in the Donbass was done by locals, up to the Russian invasion. And even after that, the DPR and LPR contingents have made up a sizable proportion of the Russian alliance. Someone around 1/3 of Russian losses since February were from local Donbass fighters.

Russia was able to annex Crimea in 2014 with very little fighting because the Ukrainian army garrisons stationed there, 21,000 strong -almost all locals- flipped over to Russia's side. That's why the transition was done peacefully. There's been no armed resistance in Crimea against Russia since that province was annexed, because the great majority of locals supported that move, as shown by several independent polls, whose results were similar to those of the referendum.

The same thing happened in the Donbass, with the local Ukrainian garrisons flipping over, though that process was anything but peaceful, Ukraine having repressed the local rebellion throwing its full military weight.

Cal88 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

Big C said:

---

Cal88, to get an accurate sense of Russia's general situation, I am going to take your assessment and that of the US mainstream media and draw a line right down the middle between the two. I bet that will not be far off.

---

That`s a fair assessment.

---

Cal88 admitting he has a pro Russia bias

---

My bias is driven by reality, yours, by a kind of misguided form of nationalism that is promoted in wartime. Perhaps a few years from now this will be seen as the useless war that it is, a proxy war against Russia using Ukrainians as fodder, the same way most people have changed their views on the Iraq war today.

My brother was in Ukraine last week, helped part of his extended family, including his wife`s 90yo aunt from Dnipropetrosk get out of the country. They are bracing for a very difficult winter.

---

You just said a more accurate view than yours would be a shift towards mainstream media. That doesn't sound like reality to me.

My views about the Iraq War have never changed.

---

You support the current US occupation of 1/3 of Syria, the war in Syria is pretty much the Iraq war repackaged. We have to go in because there is a bad guy gassing his people, so we go in, carpet-bomb cities like Raqqa in order to save them, and we take the oil, burn the crops. My Lai, agent orange, repackaged as a human rights mission.

Most people especially on the Dem side today (party which has recently taken the pro-war mantle from the Reps) have a hard time imagining that the MSM reporting on Ukraine could be completely biased to the point where it essentially boils down to wartime propaganda, that's the context of my post above.

These items posted above are false, in fact most of these apply to Ukrainian govt/army:

-Russia is specifically targeting civilians, bombing maternity wards etc
-Russia has Stalin-style enforcers shooting soldiers reluctant to fight in the back
-Russia is "throwing bodies" into the front
-Russia is running out of weapons
-Russia is isolated in the world community, and its economy is collapsing
-Russia is occupying the Donbass, Crimea against the will of the local population

---

Please tell me more about what I support in Syria

Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

The Donbass war started in 2014 with the Maidan coup. Before Vlad rolled into Ukraine in February, there were 14,000 deaths already.

This escalation was entirely preventable.

---

The Donbas war started when Russia funded a bunch of separatist groups to cause trouble because they didn't like that their guy got thrown out of office.

---

Somehow these groups held out against the 2nd largest standing army in Europe for 8 years?!?

The only reason the Donbass rebels were able to hold out is that they represented local aspirations, and because their rebellion was very harshly repressed by the central government, causing the great majority of local conscripts to defect. That`s why since then the great majority of troops stationed in russophone cities like Mariupol or Odessa are made up of conscripts and militias from central and western Ukraine.

This is how it all started, and why it went on, described by an independent British journalist. His take is the same as that of other European independent journalists who were present in Ukraine earlier last decade:

This is how I explain the 8 year war in Donbass to my British friends. I find it a pretty good analogy. Imagine if an English nationalist gov took power in London. And announced the suppression of Scottish culture…. Like ukr did to its Russian pop in 2014. What would happen?

— Johnny miller (@johnnyjmils) November 22, 2022

thread:
"The Scots would take to the streets in protest. And then what if the English Defence League started pulling down Scottish statues with the acquiescence of the government? That's what happened in Ukraine.

And then if English nationalists killed dozens of Scottish protestors with no recriminations from the authorities, like what happened in Odessa. Scottish people/authorities would get scared/angry and rise up.

And then if the British army went north to quell the uprising, met resistance and started bombing Edinburgh and Glasgow, like what Ukraine did to Donestk and Luhansk….

Find this analogy unbelievable? That's how Donbass people felt when Ukraine started bombing them in 2014. I was here. They couldn't believe it! "Why is our own government bombing us!" It's the same disbelief Scots would feel!

After this bombing even most pro-unionists would turn against the union, Scots in the army would defect and you would have civil war. That's what happened in Donbass.

An interesting side note. Glasgow is like Donetsk. If you think that even a modern English army would easily conquer Scotland, then you haven't been to Glasgow. Fierce people!

Scots would be motivated to fight and defend their land. English wouldn't. Most English people, particularly in the north wouldn't want to go and fight their brotherly Scottish people. That's a major reason why Donbass was able to hold out for eight years.

The propagandists scream Russia, but it was extremism and ultra-nationalism, fuelled by outside forces that was the embryo of this war. "

---

LOL. "Iran state-affiliated media." Great source!

They were able to hold out because the Russian government was propping them up. Pretty simple.

---

You're not going to hold a job at CNN, Fox, BBC or Sky if you report on what is actually went on in the Donbass. I could provide other independent sources who aren't affiliated in any way to any state-funded news agencies.

---

Okay, good luck with that.

Look, I can readily admit that Western media may be biased. But the problem with you guys is that when you provide your "alternative" sources it's almost ALWAYS someone on the payroll of another authoritarian government: Russia, China, Iran, Syria, whatever. Those sources aren't any better, in fact they're worse.

Don't you ever get tired of the bootlicking?

Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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The Donbass war started in 2014 with the Maidan coup. Before Vlad rolled into Ukraine in February, there were 14,000 deaths already.

This escalation was entirely preventable.

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The Donbas war started when Russia funded a bunch of separatist groups to cause trouble because they didn't like that their guy got thrown out of office.

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Somehow these groups held out against the 2nd largest standing army in Europe for 8 years?!?

The only reason the Donbass rebels were able to hold out is that they represented local aspirations, and because their rebellion was very harshly repressed by the central government, causing the great majority of local conscripts to defect. That`s why since then the great majority of troops stationed in russophone cities like Mariupol or Odessa are made up of conscripts and militias from central and western Ukraine.

This is how it all started, and why it went on, described by an independent British journalist. His take is the same as that of other European independent journalists who were present in Ukraine earlier last decade:

This is how I explain the 8 year war in Donbass to my British friends. I find it a pretty good analogy. Imagine if an English nationalist gov took power in London. And announced the suppression of Scottish culture…. Like ukr did to its Russian pop in 2014. What would happen?

— Johnny miller (@johnnyjmils) November 22, 2022

thread:
"The Scots would take to the streets in protest. And then what if the English Defence League started pulling down Scottish statues with the acquiescence of the government? That's what happened in Ukraine.

And then if English nationalists killed dozens of Scottish protestors with no recriminations from the authorities, like what happened in Odessa. Scottish people/authorities would get scared/angry and rise up.

And then if the British army went north to quell the uprising, met resistance and started bombing Edinburgh and Glasgow, like what Ukraine did to Donestk and Luhansk….

Find this analogy unbelievable? That's how Donbass people felt when Ukraine started bombing them in 2014. I was here. They couldn't believe it! "Why is our own government bombing us!" It's the same disbelief Scots would feel!

After this bombing even most pro-unionists would turn against the union, Scots in the army would defect and you would have civil war. That's what happened in Donbass.

An interesting side note. Glasgow is like Donetsk. If you think that even a modern English army would easily conquer Scotland, then you haven't been to Glasgow. Fierce people!

Scots would be motivated to fight and defend their land. English wouldn't. Most English people, particularly in the north wouldn't want to go and fight their brotherly Scottish people. That's a major reason why Donbass was able to hold out for eight years.

The propagandists scream Russia, but it was extremism and ultra-nationalism, fuelled by outside forces that was the embryo of this war. "

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LOL. "Iran state-affiliated media." Great source!

They were able to hold out because the Russian government was propping them up. Pretty simple.

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You're not going to hold a job at CNN, Fox, BBC or Sky if you report on what is actually went on in the Donbass. I could provide other independent sources who aren't affiliated in any way to any state-funded news agencies.

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Okay, good luck with that.

Look, I can readily admit that Western media may be biased. But the problem with you guys is that when you provide your "alternative" sources it's almost ALWAYS someone on the payroll of another authoritarian government: Russia, China, Iran, Syria, whatever. Those sources aren't any better, in fact they're worse.

Don't you ever get tired of the bootlicking?

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There are independent journalists like Anne-Laure Bonnel from France or Alina Lipp from Germany who not only are not on a government payroll, but also have borne a very heavy personal cost for their reporting. Lipp's parents in Germany had their bank account frozen, and were harassed by the current German equivalent of STASI. They detained Lipp and threatened her with 3 years in jail for her reporting on the Donbass showing daily bombing of civilians by the Ukrainian army.



https://thegrayzone.com/2022/07/13/video-germany-criminalizes-journalist-for-exposing-ukrainian-war-crimes/

Bonnel was fired from her job at the University of Paris she had for 15 years for her reporting of Ukrainian war crimes, was fired via email telling her that "she no longer conforms to the values of the university":.

Anne-Laure Bonnel's documentary on the Donbass from 2015 (french with english subtitles)

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Max Blumenthal and Grayzone are almost certainly taking money from those authoritarian regimes too.

https://mosaicmagazine.com/picks/israel-zionism/2019/08/max-blumenthals-progression-from-israel-hater-to-putin-shill/

Quote:

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But then something happened. We don't know exactly what it was. All we know for certain is that in December 2015, Blumenthal traveled to Moscow all expenses paid by the Kremlin to attend a gala dinner, hosted by Vladimir Putin himself, to celebrate the tenth anniversary of RT, the international TV network owned by the Russian government. When he returned to the U.S., his position on Bashar al-Assad and on U.S. intervention in Syria had turned around completely.

Only a month after the RT bash, Blumenthal founded something called "The Grayzone Project," which describes itself as "a news and politics website dedicated to original investigative journalism and analysis on war and empire." Basically, however, Grayzone is a one-stop propaganda shop, devoted largely to pushing a pro-Assad line on Syria, a pro-regime line on Venezuela, a pro-Putin line on Russia, and a pro-Hamas line on Israel.

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These are not reliable sources either, as I expected.

They're reliable enough to be actively persecuted by their governments. They have also actually travelled and lived in eastern Ukraine and the Donbass, doing actual journalism.

They`re also not on the payroll of any foreign government. You`ve asserted that my sources were all paid by foreign dictatorships, I`ve provided with examples of independent journalists who not only aren`t on the take, but are also being persecuted and finaancially stifled by NATO governments.

https://mronline.org/2022/06/23/julian-assange-alina-lipp-and-anne-laure-bonnel-when-truth-becomes-a-crime-in-the-west/

"Julian Assange, Alina Lipp and Anne-laure Bonnel are three journalists who are paying a high price for telling the truth in the West: attempts to suffocate them financially, followed by censorship, threats of imprisonment or imprisonment altogether, and even physical and psychological torture in the case of Assange. These three cases illustrate perfectly the reality of "democracy" in the West.

The case of Julian Assange, whose extradition has just been approved by the British authorities, is the most publicized and the most revealing of what can happen to a Western journalist who dares to tell the truth. And we see that the Assange case may soon no longer be an exception. Two independent journalists, the German Alina Lipp and the French Anne-Laure Bonnel, who have been outspoken about what is happening in the Donbass, are now seeing the Western censorship machine turn on them.

Alina Lipp, who spent six months in the Donbass in 2022, telling the truth about the Ukrainian army's war crimes, including in Mariupol, is now facing censorship. After a first visit in 2021, she was shocked by the war crimes committed by the Ukrainian army against the civilians of Donbass. She returned at the beginning of 2022 and stayed for six months. She openly recounts and reports on the war crimes committed by Ukrainian soldiers against the civilians of Mariupol, for example.

An inconvenient truth in Berlin. So Alina Lipp's PayPal account was blocked. Then her bank account, as well as that of her father, was closed, and the German state deducted without any justification about 1,600 euros that were still in her account. As in the Assange case, the technique of financial asphyxiation is used to silence dissident voices. Then comes censorship, with the closure of her YouTube account, where she published her reports.

And as in the case of Julian Assange, the law soon came to threaten Alina Lipp. A criminal case was opened against the journalist for supporting crimes. Because she dared to say that what Ukraine is doing in Donbass is genocide, that she understands why Russia intervened, why it launched its special military operation, and that the people she knows in Donetsk are happy that Moscow is intervening. Just because of that, for giving her opinion and telling the truth, Alina Lipp faces up to three years in prison!

Anne-Laure Bonnel has also been directly and personally attacked by several French media outlets who have simply denigrated her, even defamed her. And as in the case of Julian Assange, or Alina Lipp, the authorities are using financial suffocation to try to silence her... As in the case of Alina Lipp, Anne-Laure Bonnel's bank account was temporarily blocked by her bank, Socit Gnrale, and her contract with the Sorbonne University was not renewed."

sycasey said:

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Max Blumenthal and Grayzone are almost certainly taking money from those authoritarian regimes too.

https://mosaicmagazine.com/picks/israel-zionism/2019/08/max-blumenthals-progression-from-israel-hater-to-putin-shill/

Quote:

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But then something happened. We don't know exactly what it was. All we know for certain is that in December 2015, Blumenthal traveled to Moscow all expenses paid by the Kremlin to attend a gala dinner, hosted by Vladimir Putin himself, to celebrate the tenth anniversary of RT, the international TV network owned by the Russian government. When he returned to the U.S., his position on Bashar al-Assad and on U.S. intervention in Syria had turned around completely.

Only a month after the RT bash, Blumenthal founded something called "The Grayzone Project," which describes itself as "a news and politics website dedicated to original investigative journalism and analysis on war and empire." Basically, however, Grayzone is a one-stop propaganda shop, devoted largely to pushing a pro-Assad line on Syria, a pro-regime line on Venezuela, a pro-Putin line on Russia, and a pro-Hamas line on Israel.

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These are not reliable sources either, as I expected.

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Of course Mosaic Magazine, the kind of zionist outlet for whom anybody who is slightly to the left of Nethanyahu is a rabid genocidal antisemite. You`re using the same smear tactics on Max Blumenthal that they are, there is no proof that he is funded by Russia or any other foreign government, as if this could happen without the knowledge of US intelligence agencies..

Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Max Blumenthal and Grayzone are almost certainly taking money from those authoritarian regimes too.

https://mosaicmagazine.com/picks/israel-zionism/2019/08/max-blumenthals-progression-from-israel-hater-to-putin-shill/

Quote:

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But then something happened. We don't know exactly what it was. All we know for certain is that in December 2015, Blumenthal traveled to Moscow all expenses paid by the Kremlin to attend a gala dinner, hosted by Vladimir Putin himself, to celebrate the tenth anniversary of RT, the international TV network owned by the Russian government. When he returned to the U.S., his position on Bashar al-Assad and on U.S. intervention in Syria had turned around completely.

Only a month after the RT bash, Blumenthal founded something called "The Grayzone Project," which describes itself as "a news and politics website dedicated to original investigative journalism and analysis on war and empire." Basically, however, Grayzone is a one-stop propaganda shop, devoted largely to pushing a pro-Assad line on Syria, a pro-regime line on Venezuela, a pro-Putin line on Russia, and a pro-Hamas line on Israel.

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These are not reliable sources either, as I expected.

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Of course Mosaic Magazine, the kind of zionist outlet for whom anybody who is slightly to the left of Nethanyahu is a rabid genocidal antisemite. You`re using the same smear tactics on Max Blumenthal that they are, there is no proof that he is funded by Russia or any other foreign government, as if this could happen without the knowledge of US intelligence agencies..

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Here's a further account of Blumenthal being directly paid by RT:

https://prospect.org/politics/my-adventures-with-rt-putin-russia/

Quote:

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In December 2015, I was invited by a man named David McCormack, whose title was "Account Director, Ogilvy Media Influence for Ogilvy Public Relations," to go to Moscow in order to attend a conference celebrating RT's tenth anniversary. This was the occasion at which RT famously paid Michael Flynn $45,000 to speak. I had never paid attention to RT before, and while I knew that Flynn had occupied important roles in the U.S. national-security bureaucracy, I was not yet up to speed on his role with Trump, whom I still had trouble taking seriously. I do, however, recall being shocked at how crazy Flynn sounded, especially on the topic of Hillary Clinton. Frequent RT guest and Flynn's fellow conspiracy theorist Max Blumenthal was also a paid speaker, as was the British cheerleader for Hamas and Saddam Hussein George Galloway. Julian Assange appeared by video. Green Party presidential candidate and 2016 election spoiler Jill Stein, who appears in the famous photo at dinner with Flynn and Putin, spoke as well. The word "****show" repeatedly came to mind.

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By all means, continue dying on this hill.

sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Max Blumenthal and Grayzone are almost certainly taking money from those authoritarian regimes too.

https://mosaicmagazine.com/picks/israel-zionism/2019/08/max-blumenthals-progression-from-israel-hater-to-putin-shill/

Quote:

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But then something happened. We don't know exactly what it was. All we know for certain is that in December 2015, Blumenthal traveled to Moscow all expenses paid by the Kremlin to attend a gala dinner, hosted by Vladimir Putin himself, to celebrate the tenth anniversary of RT, the international TV network owned by the Russian government. When he returned to the U.S., his position on Bashar al-Assad and on U.S. intervention in Syria had turned around completely.

Only a month after the RT bash, Blumenthal founded something called "The Grayzone Project," which describes itself as "a news and politics website dedicated to original investigative journalism and analysis on war and empire." Basically, however, Grayzone is a one-stop propaganda shop, devoted largely to pushing a pro-Assad line on Syria, a pro-regime line on Venezuela, a pro-Putin line on Russia, and a pro-Hamas line on Israel.

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These are not reliable sources either, as I expected.

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Of course Mosaic Magazine, the kind of zionist outlet for whom anybody who is slightly to the left of Nethanyahu is a rabid genocidal antisemite. You`re using the same smear tactics on Max Blumenthal that they are, there is no proof that he is funded by Russia or any other foreign government, as if this could happen without the knowledge of US intelligence agencies..

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Here's a further account of Blumenthal being directly paid by RT:

https://prospect.org/politics/my-adventures-with-rt-putin-russia/

Quote:

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In December 2015, I was invited by a man named David McCormack, whose title was "Account Director, Ogilvy Media Influence for Ogilvy Public Relations," to go to Moscow in order to attend a conference celebrating RT's tenth anniversary. This was the occasion at which RT famously paid Michael Flynn $45,000 to speak. I had never paid attention to RT before, and while I knew that Flynn had occupied important roles in the U.S. national-security bureaucracy, I was not yet up to speed on his role with Trump, whom I still had trouble taking seriously. I do, however, recall being shocked at how crazy Flynn sounded, especially on the topic of Hillary Clinton. Frequent RT guest and Flynn's fellow conspiracy theorist Max Blumenthal was also a paid speaker, as was the British cheerleader for Hamas and Saddam Hussein George Galloway. Julian Assange appeared by video. Green Party presidential candidate and 2016 election spoiler Jill Stein, who appears in the famous photo at dinner with Flynn and Putin, spoke as well. The word "****show" repeatedly came to mind.

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By all means, continue dying on this hill.

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You miraculously refuted all of his sources as funded by Russia because one of them was paid by RT to speak at a conference in 2015. Looks like the ultimate gotcha moment.

oski003 said:

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sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Max Blumenthal and Grayzone are almost certainly taking money from those authoritarian regimes too.

https://mosaicmagazine.com/picks/israel-zionism/2019/08/max-blumenthals-progression-from-israel-hater-to-putin-shill/

Quote:

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But then something happened. We don't know exactly what it was. All we know for certain is that in December 2015, Blumenthal traveled to Moscow all expenses paid by the Kremlin to attend a gala dinner, hosted by Vladimir Putin himself, to celebrate the tenth anniversary of RT, the international TV network owned by the Russian government. When he returned to the U.S., his position on Bashar al-Assad and on U.S. intervention in Syria had turned around completely.

Only a month after the RT bash, Blumenthal founded something called "The Grayzone Project," which describes itself as "a news and politics website dedicated to original investigative journalism and analysis on war and empire." Basically, however, Grayzone is a one-stop propaganda shop, devoted largely to pushing a pro-Assad line on Syria, a pro-regime line on Venezuela, a pro-Putin line on Russia, and a pro-Hamas line on Israel.

---

These are not reliable sources either, as I expected.

---

Of course Mosaic Magazine, the kind of zionist outlet for whom anybody who is slightly to the left of Nethanyahu is a rabid genocidal antisemite. You`re using the same smear tactics on Max Blumenthal that they are, there is no proof that he is funded by Russia or any other foreign government, as if this could happen without the knowledge of US intelligence agencies..

---

Here's a further account of Blumenthal being directly paid by RT:

https://prospect.org/politics/my-adventures-with-rt-putin-russia/

Quote:

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In December 2015, I was invited by a man named David McCormack, whose title was "Account Director, Ogilvy Media Influence for Ogilvy Public Relations," to go to Moscow in order to attend a conference celebrating RT's tenth anniversary. This was the occasion at which RT famously paid Michael Flynn $45,000 to speak. I had never paid attention to RT before, and while I knew that Flynn had occupied important roles in the U.S. national-security bureaucracy, I was not yet up to speed on his role with Trump, whom I still had trouble taking seriously. I do, however, recall being shocked at how crazy Flynn sounded, especially on the topic of Hillary Clinton. Frequent RT guest and Flynn's fellow conspiracy theorist Max Blumenthal was also a paid speaker, as was the British cheerleader for Hamas and Saddam Hussein George Galloway. Julian Assange appeared by video. Green Party presidential candidate and 2016 election spoiler Jill Stein, who appears in the famous photo at dinner with Flynn and Putin, spoke as well. The word "****show" repeatedly came to mind.

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By all means, continue dying on this hill.

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You miraculously refuted all of his sources as funded by Russia because one of them was paid by RT to speak at a conference in 2015. Looks like the ultimate gotcha moment.

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Yes, he was a paid speaker there and then miraculously changed his positions on geopolitical issues to support the same positions Putin does.

Do I have hard proof that he's on their payroll? No. But it looks pretty likely.

Cal88 said:

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They're reliable enough to be actively persecuted by their governments. They have also actually travelled and lived in eastern Ukraine and the Donbass, doing actual journalism.

They`re also not on the payroll of any foreign government. You`ve asserted that my sources were all paid by foreign dictatorships, I`ve provided with examples of independent journalists who not only aren`t on the take, but are also being persecuted and finaancially stifled by NATO governments.

https://mronline.org/2022/06/23/julian-assange-alina-lipp-and-anne-laure-bonnel-when-truth-becomes-a-crime-in-the-west/

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This article is written by Christelle Neant and originally posted to her website Donbass Insider. I'd never heard of this person and so tried to find some info about her background. This didn't take long:

https://crossover.social/disinformation-on-donbas-is-only-a-google-autocomplete-away/

Quote:

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• Christelle Neant worked as a reporter for the pro-Russian news agency DONI in 2016, then founded Donbass Insider;

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https://ukraineworld.org/articles/infowatch/amplifiers

Quote:

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The general narrative of the posts published on the Facebook page for Donbass Insider is anti-Ukrainian, anti-Western and pro-Russian. As indicated in its 'about' section, the page represents a media outlet which operates a website by the same name. The self-proclaimed news agency operates in English, Russian and French. It purports to cover issues related to Donbass, Ukraine and Russia, as well as about connected conflicts like Syria and Libya. No information about the location of the agency or its founders is available. Additionally, the website says that it only operates based on crowdfunding.

Information about the site's domain reveals that the website is registered in Moscow, Russia under the Russian domain name registrar company: JSC "RU-CENTER".

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So once again, we have a Cal88 source that's being funded by Russia. What a surprise!