The Official Russian Invasion of Ukraine Thread

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Cal88
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In reply to golden sloth • 12:01p, 12/12/22
golden sloth said:
Cal88 said:
oski003 said:
Cal88 said:
movielover said:
Haven't been able to keep up with our proxy war news.

Is Ukraine still bleeding men? Are combatants now chiefly Ukrainian and Poles?

Is Russia bringing 200,000 new troops?

Are we really low on ammo and other military equipment?

Ukraine has been bleeding men at a very high rate, 700-1,000 men/day in a desperate bid o hold on to Bakhmut, the regional hub in the Donbass, and site of their main fortress in the area. If it falls, the remainder of the Donbass becomes vulnerable.

https://www.ft.com/content/dcdd09bf-440a-4648-9664-6084b11dddd4

Poland has had a large contingent in the war, and may have already lost around 4,000 men, some of the political repercussions from this are going to be felt domestically.

Russia is taking its time, grdually injecting the first half of the 350,000 new troops. These troops are not conscripts, they're reservists who have already served in the military, along with 70,000 volunteers.

This is the kind of somewhat static type of warfare they favor where their heavy artillery advantage makes a big difference. They might keep the slow grind going through winter and the spring mud season. Their main goal is to push Ukrainian losses past their breaking point, and at this rate, they're halfway there.

The main result of NATO's help has been to raise that breaking point, virtually eliminating the prospect for a diplomatic settlement. It doesn't change the final result, and herein lies the tragedy of this war.

At this point Russia has less and less incentive to work out a settlement, as they no longer trust their counterparts, especially with the recent open declarations by both Merkel and former Ukr. prez Poroshenko, who stated that Minsk II was just a temporary truce meant to give Ukraine and NATO time to arm themselves and reconquer the Donbass and Crimea, as opposed to the permanent peace settlement it was meant to be. As a result of this, Russia is going to go all the way, demanding a surrender on its own terms, much less favorable than what Ukraine could have asked for today or earlier this year.

The US/NATO have ordered 100,000 shells from South Korea a month ago, about 2-3 weeks' worth of ammo for Ukraine. Their inventories are running very low on shells and anti-tank weaponry, as well as tanks, FSU planes, the arsenals of Poland, Bulgaria, Slovakia etc have been depleted, with high material and personnel losses having been incurred in the Kherson offensive. Russia has destroyed over 100% of Ukraine's original arsenal, most of its smaller current arsenal is made up of donations/purchases from its neighbors.

With this in mind, the Russians are probably going to keep grinding away, conducting a slow and steady artillery war where they have a huge advantage in fire volume and have a correspondingly favorable body count. They can further ratchet up their grip on the situation through taking out Ukrainian infrastructure.

Why are these 350,000 trained reservists now entering the war? Why didn't they enter the war months ago? Why enter the untrained when you had trained reservists?

Part of it is that the Russians expected to have a short war with a decapitation operation, or an early settlement after their show of force. They've managed to capture nearly a quarter of Ukraine with those 200,000 conscripts. They would have gotten that result, a Minsk III type agreement, had it not been for the intervention of NATO.

As well Putin is very risk-averse, going with a larger force has political risks, and most of all, he wanted to hold off the bulk of his forces for fear of NATO jumping in on several fronts (Georgia, Kaliningrad, Baltics, the Pacific etc) with the bulk of his army bogged down in Ukraine.

Since February, there is a greater political acceptance of the war at home, due to the reports of Ukrainian atrocities like the sadistic execution of Russian POWs and the open displays of nazi ideology. And even more so because Russia was able to sustain the economic embargo and sanctions, winning the diplomatic and economic wars. The BRICS are emerging as an economic and political force in the world, and the Russians have managed to win over important global players like India, Turkey and Saudi Arabia, along with China.


I'll just correct a few statements:

1. Russia failed in their rush on Kyiv not because of NATO who was pleading for Zelensky to flee the country, but because Ukraine was able to prevent Russia from holding the airport outside Kyiv and Russia didnt have a logistical capability to support the war that deep into enemy territory. Russia also failed in acknowledging Russia would be greeted as an enemy not a savior.

2. The embargo is working as Russia is struggling to manufacture new weapons to sustain the war effort, all the men in the world dont matter if they dont have a weapon to use.

3. Russia is not winning the diplomatic war. Turkey is still very much a NATO ally. India is just taking advantage of the cheap oil, they do not support Russia or Russia's war. China has not helped Russia at all and has made Russia puppet Chinese talking points as russia is desperate.

1. Agree about the military failure in Kiev, though that show of force, along with their strong advances particularly in the south would have precipitated a diplomatic settlement in March, if it wasn't for the intervention of NATO, particularly Boris Johnson. This led to a hardening of Ukrainian govt position, with the purging of moderates within its ranks, like the assassination of one moderate member of their Istanbul peace talks delegation, liquidated gangster-style.

https://7news.com.au/news/ukraine/competing-claims-emerge-after-ukraine-official-denis-kireev-accused-of-treason-shot-dead-in-street-c-5958770

Ukraine's internal KGB-like security apparatus, the 30,000-strong SBU, has maintained an iron grip on the country, intimidating and liquidating moderate local politicians who don't fully support the war.

2. Russia military-industrial complex is operating at full capacity, they've been preparing for this and hoarding a lot of ammunition. They're producing drones and missiles at a high rate, and ammunition on a large industrial scale, as reported by British think tank RUSI. It's NATO that is being depleted, they are now sourcing Soviet-era equipment in places like Morocco as the inventory of EE members are being depleted. There are no large-scale production facilities in Europe or the US capable of matching that of Russia. That was the gist of this article:

https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/return-industrial-warfare

3. India is not only buying Russian oil, which it is reexporting to western markets like Rotterdam, but it is also setting up new trade routes with Russia through Iran:


India & Russia plan to open new trade route via Iran despite threat of US sanctions

Turkey has also become a hub for Russian exports and grey market imports. It is at odds with the US due to the US support of Kurds in Syria, which Turkey views as an existential threat. Turkey accused the US of being indirectly responsible for the recent bombing in Istanbul's busy Istiklal street.

https://thehill.com/policy/international/3734308-turkey-alleges-us-complicity-in-deadly-istanbul-bombing-rejects-condolence-statement/

3. China has been covertly helping Russia, supplying them with chips for their MIC. Several Russian military transport Antonovs have been spotted shuttling back and forth.

https://kyivindependent.com/news-feed/media-russian-transport-aircraft-visit-china-en-masse-fuel-speculation-on-military-supplies
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movielover
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In reply to sycasey • 12:44p, 12/12/22
sycasey said:
dimitrig said:
dajo9 said:
Cal88, I know you are French. Any chance your family sided with the Vichy government? I see a lot of similarities.


I can't imagine why Ukrainians are mad at Russians and Russian sympathizers. Makes no sense!

You see, Russia had to invade because of these things that happened after they invaded. It's just common sense!


I guess you think we had no stance during the Cuban Missle Crisis?
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movielover
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In reply to Unit2Sucks • 1:11p, 12/12/22
Weakness and poor decision making by Biden and Blinken in Afghanistan surely emboldened Putin, who looks with disdain on the collapse of the old USSR. Newly discovered oil and NG reserves don't hurt.

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sycasey
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In reply to movielover • 1:31p, 12/12/22
movielover said:
sycasey said:
dimitrig said:
dajo9 said:
Cal88, I know you are French. Any chance your family sided with the Vichy government? I see a lot of similarities.


I can't imagine why Ukrainians are mad at Russians and Russian sympathizers. Makes no sense!

You see, Russia had to invade because of these things that happened after they invaded. It's just common sense!


I guess you think we had no stance during the Cuban Missle Crisis?
You're going to have to explain how this relates to the thing I wrote.
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sycasey
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In reply to Cal88 • 1:32p, 12/12/22
Cal88 said:

Note as well that the Kieve regimes have started banning opposition media well before this year, so the war excuse is not valid.
Was this before or after Russia invaded and annexed Crimea?
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Unit2Sucks
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In reply to movielover • 2:01p, 12/12/22
movielover said:
Weakness and poor decision making by Biden and Blinken in Afghanistan surely emboldened Putin, who looks with disdain on the collapse of the old USSR. Newly discovered oil and NG reserves don't hurt.

How'd that turn out for Putin?

It's amazing how people can construct an alternate reality to inhabit, populated almost entirely by spoonfed disingenuous talking points. We are better off as a country without being in a forever war in Afghanistan. When Trump said it, you nodded your head vociferously. When Trump made the worst foreign policy deal in US history - the Doha Agreement - you loved it, even though he released 5,000 Taliban criminals and essentially gave control of the country back to the Taliban. When Biden carried out the exit that was required by the agreement Trump made, you somehow decided that we should remain in Afghanistan.

It's almost as if you don't have any principles and just fall for whatever gaslighting finds its way into your bubble.
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Cal88
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In reply to sycasey • 3:11p, 12/12/22
sycasey said:
Cal88 said:

Note as well that the Kieve regimes have started banning opposition media well before this year, so the war excuse is not valid.
Was this before or after Russia invaded and annexed Crimea?

Part of the problems with the Russians' "Special Military Operation" is their overconfidence after the Crimean annexation, which they were able to do with relative ease, and without any major fight, because 18,000 of the 21,000 Ukrainian army garrison stationed there, made up almost entirely of locals, switched sides and facilitated Crimea's annexation by Russia, which as the election and many independent polls by German and American pollsters showed was supported by 80%-90% of Crimeans, due to the fact that the region is inhabited by a very large majority of ethnic Russians.

The same thing happened in the Donbass, with the majority of the Ukrainian army from there switching sides to become the Luhansk and Donetsk armies (LPR and DPR). The Kiev government learned its lesson and made sure that rebel cities like Mariupol or Odessa had military garrisons that weren't primarily drawn from locals.

Crimea had been part of Russia from 1783, when the Russian Empire annexed it a decade after defeating Ottoman forces in the Battle of Kozludzha, until 1954, when the Soviet government transferred Crimea from the Russian Soviet Socialist Republic to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic for arbitrary Soviet Socialist political reasons.

There hasn't been any armed resistance to the Russian annexation, because it was very broadly popular. If anything Crimeans were pissed at Ukraine for cutting off their water supply, a move done out of pure spite as the water from the canal supplying Crimea was just diverted off into the Black Sea. Crimea is a breadbasket with a mild climate and a thriving agriculture and wine country that ground down to a halt after Ukraine cut off their water.

Russia restored their water access, they also invested heavily into Crimea's infrastructure with a large new modern airport (Russia's busiest airport outside of Moscow and St. Petersburg), the $4 billion Kerch bridge and ports along with a tourism infrastructure, the region has been thriving with a record number of visitors.

https://www.tourism-review.com/tourism-in-crimea-reports-huge-success-news12203

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sycasey
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In reply to Cal88 • 3:23p, 12/12/22
Cal88 said:
sycasey said:
Cal88 said:

Note as well that the Kieve regimes have started banning opposition media well before this year, so the war excuse is not valid.
Was this before or after Russia invaded and annexed Crimea?

Part of the problems with the Russians' "Special Military Operation" is their overconfidence after the Crimean annexation, which they were able to do with relative ease, and without any major fight, because 18,000 of the 21,000 Ukrainian army garrison stationed there, made up almost entirely of locals, switched sides and facilitated Crimea's annexation by Russia, which as the election and many independent polls by German and American pollsters showed was supported by 80%-90% of Crimeans, due to the fact that the region is inhabited by a very large majority of ethnic Russians.

The same thing happened in the Donbass, with the majority of the Ukrainian army from there switching sides to become the Luhansk and Donetsk armies (LPR and DPR). The Kiev government learned its lesson and made sure that rebel cities like Mariupol or Odessa had military garrisons that weren't primarily drawn from locals.

Crimea had been part of Russia from 1783, when the Russian Empire annexed it a decade after defeating Ottoman forces in the Battle of Kozludzha, until 1954, when the Soviet government transferred Crimea from the Russian Soviet Socialist Republic to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic for arbitrary Soviet Socialist political reasons.

There hasn't been any armed resistance to the Russian annexation, because it was very broadly popular. If anything Crimeans were pissed at Ukraine for cutting off their water supply, a move done out of pure spite as the water from the canal supplying Crimea was just diverted off into the Black Sea. Crimea is a breadbasket with a mild climate and a thriving agriculture and wine country that ground down to a halt after Ukraine cut off their water.

Russia restored their water access, they also invested heavily into Crimea's infrastructure with a large new modern airport (Russia's busiest airport outside of Moscow and St. Petersburg), the $4 billion Kerch bridge and ports along with a tourism infrastructure, the region has been thriving with a record number of visitors.

https://www.tourism-review.com/tourism-in-crimea-reports-huge-success-news12203
So the anti-Russian measures by the Ukrainian government happened after Russia took Crimea, correct?
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Cal88
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3:30p, 12/12/22
More significantly, those anti-democratic measures happened after the Maidan Coup, which was achieved with the help of far right armed militias, overthrowing democratically-elected president Yanukovych, who was subsequently replaced by NATO-aligned/appointed oligarch billionaire Poroshenko.

Poroshenko was a typical post-Soviet oligarch who rose by muscling in on privatized state property, mainly chocolate and automobile factories. He stepped up censorship of opposition media while maintaining his own personal media empire, which included a TV station.
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sycasey
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In reply to Cal88 • 3:31p, 12/12/22
Cal88 said:
More significantly, those anti-democratic measures happened after the Maidan Coup, which was achieved with the help of far right armed militias.
Right, after Ukrainians threw out the pro-Russian government they didn't like, Russia decided to take part of their country. I remember.
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oski003
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In reply to sycasey • 3:37p, 12/12/22
sycasey said:
Cal88 said:
More significantly, those anti-democratic measures happened after the Maidan Coup, which was achieved with the help of far right armed militias.
Right, after Ukrainians threw out the pro-Russian government they didn't like, Russia decided to take part of their country. I remember.


All Ukrainians threw out the government? Did any Nazi militias help them? What about the Ukrainians that liked the government allying with Russia, instead of the West?
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sycasey
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In reply to oski003 • 3:45p, 12/12/22
oski003 said:
sycasey said:
Cal88 said:
More significantly, those anti-democratic measures happened after the Maidan Coup, which was achieved with the help of far right armed militias.
Right, after Ukrainians threw out the pro-Russian government they didn't like, Russia decided to take part of their country. I remember.


All Ukrainians threw out the government? Did any Nazi militias help them? What about the Ukrainians that liked the government allying with Russia, instead of the West?
I think the evidence on the ground indicates that a solid majority of Ukrainians do not want to be under Russian control.
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Cal88
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3:46p, 12/12/22
Quote:
All Ukrainians threw out the government? Did any Nazi militias help them? What about the Ukrainians that liked the government allying with Russia, instead of the West?

Not to mention the majority of Ukrainian voters who elected Yanukovych.
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Cal88
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In reply to sycasey • 3:53p, 12/12/22
sycasey said:
oski003 said:
sycasey said:
Cal88 said:
More significantly, those anti-democratic measures happened after the Maidan Coup, which was achieved with the help of far right armed militias.
Right, after Ukrainians threw out the pro-Russian government they didn't like, Russia decided to take part of their country. I remember.


All Ukrainians threw out the government? Did any Nazi militias help them? What about the Ukrainians that liked the government allying with Russia, instead of the West?
I think the evidence on the ground indicates that a solid majority of Ukrainians do not want to be under Russian control.

A solid majority of Ukrainians voted for a peace with Russia, including the large Russophone minority. That platform of reconciliation was what got Zelensky elected, he posed as a concerned anti-corruption Russophone, as opposed to what he really is, the near billionaire budding oligarch who will fight Russia to the last Ukrainian.
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sycasey
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In reply to Cal88 • 4:19p, 12/12/22
Cal88 said:
sycasey said:
oski003 said:
sycasey said:
Cal88 said:
More significantly, those anti-democratic measures happened after the Maidan Coup, which was achieved with the help of far right armed militias.
Right, after Ukrainians threw out the pro-Russian government they didn't like, Russia decided to take part of their country. I remember.


All Ukrainians threw out the government? Did any Nazi militias help them? What about the Ukrainians that liked the government allying with Russia, instead of the West?
I think the evidence on the ground indicates that a solid majority of Ukrainians do not want to be under Russian control.

A solid majority of Ukrainians voted for a peace with Russia, including the large Russophone minority. That platform of reconciliation was what got Zelensky elected, he posed as a concerned anti-corruption Russophone, as opposed to what he really is, the near billionaire budding oligarch who will fight Russia to the last Ukrainian.
You guys keep telling yourselves that.
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Unit2Sucks
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In reply to oski003 • 5:48p, 12/12/22
oski003 said:
sycasey said:

Right, after Ukrainians threw out the pro-Russian government they didn't like, Russia decided to take part of their country. I remember.


All Ukrainians threw out the government? Did any Nazi militias help them? What about the Ukrainians that liked the government allying with Russia, instead of the West?
The nazi militias BS is a complete non-sequitur. I find it ironic that a person who thinks Robert E Lee is an American hero doesn't understand why Bandera still is a popular figure in Ukraine. I'm sure plenty of GOPers would be first in line to defend statues of old Ukrainian war heroes regardless of their affiliation with nazis.

Anti-semiticism has always been a problem in Europe, including Russia, Ukraine and all surrounding areas. I think it's disgusting and pathetic but losers cling to anti-semitism like flies on sh)t. Part of my family fled to America to avoid anti-semitic persecution in czarist russia. Another part fled pogroms in Austria and Poland, Nazis everywhere and settled briefly in Galicia before eventually leaving for less anti-semitic conditions in the US.

But let's be clear, while some Kremlin apologists pay lip service to the anti-semitic situation in Ukraine, it has nothing to do with this war and is just a distraction that purveyors of kremlin disinformation use to distract people. Dealing with anti-semitism has never been a goal for Russia with respect to this "special military operation" or anywhere else. If Putin or Russia cared about anti-semitism, they would do something about it in the Russian military, where it is a huge problem or in Russia generally. There is no reason to believe that anti-semitism is a bigger problem in Ukraine than it is in Russia. Here's another tell that Putin never really cared about anti-semitism - in all the discussion of Minsk 3 or other potential offramps to the war, not a single person has ever mentioned doing anything to reduce the impact of anti-semitism in Ukraine.
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oski003
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In reply to Unit2Sucks • 7:04p, 12/12/22
Unit2Sucks said:
oski003 said:
sycasey said:

Right, after Ukrainians threw out the pro-Russian government they didn't like, Russia decided to take part of their country. I remember.


All Ukrainians threw out the government? Did any Nazi militias help them? What about the Ukrainians that liked the government allying with Russia, instead of the West?
The nazi militias BS is a complete non-sequitur. I find it ironic that a person who thinks Robert E Lee is an American hero doesn't understand why Bandera still is a popular figure in Ukraine. I'm sure plenty of GOPers would be first in line to defend statues of old Ukrainian war heroes regardless of their affiliation with nazis.

Anti-semiticism has always been a problem in Europe, including Russia, Ukraine and all surrounding areas. I think it's disgusting and pathetic but losers cling to anti-semitism like flies on sh)t. Part of my family fled to America to avoid anti-semitic persecution in czarist russia. Another part fled pogroms in Austria and Poland, Nazis everywhere and settled briefly in Galicia before eventually leaving for less anti-semitic conditions in the US.

But let's be clear, while some Kremlin apologists pay lip service to the anti-semitic situation in Ukraine, it has nothing to do with this war and is just a distraction that purveyors of kremlin disinformation use to distract people. Dealing with anti-semitism has never been a goal for Russia with respect to this "special military operation" or anywhere else. If Putin or Russia cared about anti-semitism, they would do something about it in the Russian military, where it is a huge problem or in Russia generally. There is no reason to believe that anti-semitism is a bigger problem in Ukraine than it is in Russia. Here's another tell that Putin never really cared about anti-semitism - in all the discussion of Minsk 3 or other potential offramps to the war, not a single person has ever mentioned doing anything to reduce the impact of anti-semitism in Ukraine.


Let's be clear here, once again you've inputted a bunch of things into another person's argument and argued against all the things you have made up in your head. Wonderful. The discussion was on whether or not everyone in Ukraine wanted to overthrow the government. The protestors needed Nazi militia in their coup. Even if you downplay Pravy Sektor's role in the revolution, a prominent right wing political party took seats in the government.

Yanukovych's Russification policies set off a counter-reaction and bumped up the popularity of Svoboda ("Freedom") a radical Ukrainian nationalist party that enjoys support in the west of the country, particularly in Galicia, and polled over 10% in the 2012 elections winning 38 seats in the 450-strong parliament. Led by Oleh Tyahnybok, Svoboda is now part of Ukraine's government, holding four cabinet positions, including deputy prime minister.

The party's neofascist past is clear. Founded in 1991 as an anti-Communist movement, Svoboda was previously called the Socio-National Party of Ukraine a nod to national socialism. Its symbol was Nazi too: a swastika-like Wolfsangel. Tyahnybok dumped the Hitler paraphernalia when he renamed the party Svoboda in 2004, on becoming leader. The same year, however, he was ejected from the mainstream Our Ukraine faction after referring to the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia".

With that being said, I am not saying that Russia's invasion in Ukraine is justified because they are fighting Nazis. I am saying that Ukraine is an ethnically diverse country and the entire country did not revolt in the Maidan Revolution. It was driven from the West.

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Cal88
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In reply to Unit2Sucks • 7:08p, 12/12/22
Unit2Sucks said:
oski003 said:
sycasey said:

Right, after Ukrainians threw out the pro-Russian government they didn't like, Russia decided to take part of their country. I remember.

All Ukrainians threw out the government? Did any Nazi militias help them? What about the Ukrainians that liked the government allying with Russia, instead of the West?
The nazi militias BS is a complete non-sequitur. I find it ironic that a person who thinks Robert E Lee is an American hero doesn't understand why Bandera still is a popular figure in Ukraine. I'm sure plenty of GOPers would be first in line to defend statues of old Ukrainian war heroes regardless of their affiliation with nazis.

Anti-semiticism has always been a problem in Europe, including Russia, Ukraine and all surrounding areas. I think it's disgusting and pathetic but losers cling to anti-semitism like flies on sh)t. Part of my family fled to America to avoid anti-semitic persecution in czarist russia. Another part fled pogroms in Austria and Poland, Nazis everywhere and settled briefly in Galicia before eventually leaving for less anti-semitic conditions in the US.

But let's be clear, while some Kremlin apologists pay lip service to the anti-semitic situation in Ukraine, it has nothing to do with this war and is just a distraction that purveyors of kremlin disinformation use to distract people. Dealing with anti-semitism has never been a goal for Russia with respect to this "special military operation" or anywhere else. If Putin or Russia cared about anti-semitism, they would do something about it in the Russian military, where it is a huge problem or in Russia generally. There is no reason to believe that anti-semitism is a bigger problem in Ukraine than it is in Russia. Here's another tell that Putin never really cared about anti-semitism - in all the discussion of Minsk 3 or other potential offramps to the war, not a single person has ever mentioned doing anything to reduce the impact of anti-semitism in Ukraine.

Robert E Lee didn't round up and exterminate 100,000+ Jews and Poles, and he was from the 1860s, no comparison whatsoever with Bandera. Once again, repeated slowly, this was the leader of the largest SS division in WW2, and not some Dixie general from two centuries ago. I can't believe you would try to make that kind of sleight of hand.

It's funny how some liberals will freak out over 200 losers in khakis and tiki torches in Charlottesville, while they fawn over and wax poetic over entire divisions with 100,000+ troops armed to the gills with modern weapons draped with bona fide nazi insignias and modern tanks with swastikas and balkenkeuzes on them.



The nazi problem in Ukraine is not just about antisemitism, the nazis also exterminated Slavs by the million, because these were subhuman untermensch in their racist ideology, a race of people to be cleared for "aryan lebensraum". Ukrainian nationalists today also view Russians as subhumans, and Russian culture as something that they have to eradicate from their nation. Ukraine has a constitution that states that "saving of gene pool of the Ukrainian people is the duty of the state".

They refer to Russians as "orcs", "mongols", "asiatics", "moskals", "colorados" (a kind of striped roach), terms that imply that they're further away from the aryan ideal that ukrainian nazis. This is exactly how nazi Germany saw the Slavs in general, and their main enemy, the Russians.

When that kind of hateful racism is allowed to prevail in a country like Ukraine, you get scenes like the ones I've posted above with Russian speakers taped on street poles, stripped off their pants and beaten in a public torture and humiliation ritual that has no place today in Europe. Those despicable acts are enabled by an ideology of hatred and racial superiority.



Ukrainians tying a man and a woman to a pole, beating them, encouraging children to participate in the beating and chanting the Ukrainian anthem. For no other reason than them being Russian... Those kinds of incidents against minorities don't happen if there isn't a campaign to dehumanize that class of people, like this Ukrainian nationalist smashing a Russophone woman's head into the train wagon wall:



It's that kind of attitude that the Russians will not tolerate at their doorstep, especially when the government in place that pushes this ideology, with members of parliament calling for the extermination of Russians, also aims to acquire nuclear weapons, which they have the capacity to develop and huge quantities of spent uranium raw material.


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sycasey
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7:50p, 12/12/22
Cal88 is going hard on trying to prove Ukraine is evil. That's how you know Russia is losing the war.
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sycasey
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In reply to oski003 • 7:52p, 12/12/22
oski003 said:
With that being said, I am not saying that Russia's invasion in Ukraine is justified because they are fighting Nazis. I am saying that Ukraine is an ethnically diverse country and the entire country did not revolt in the Maidan Revolution. It was driven from the West.

It was driven by people in Ukraine who would much rather be part of the West than remain within Russia's sphere of influence. No doubt the West encouraged it, but it was mostly coming from within Ukraine.
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In reply to sycasey • 8:08p, 12/12/22
sycasey said:
oski003 said:
With that being said, I am not saying that Russia's invasion in Ukraine is justified because they are fighting Nazis. I am saying that Ukraine is an ethnically diverse country and the entire country did not revolt in the Maidan Revolution. It was driven from the West.

It was driven by people in Ukraine who would much rather be part of the West than remain within Russia's sphere of influence. No doubt the West encouraged it, but it was mostly coming from within Ukraine.


That's fair.
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golden sloth
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In reply to oski003 • 9:08p, 12/12/22
oski003 said:
sycasey said:
oski003 said:
With that being said, I am not saying that Russia's invasion in Ukraine is justified because they are fighting Nazis. I am saying that Ukraine is an ethnically diverse country and the entire country did not revolt in the Maidan Revolution. It was driven from the West.

It was driven by people in Ukraine who would much rather be part of the West than remain within Russia's sphere of influence. No doubt the West encouraged it, but it was mostly coming from within Ukraine.


That's fair.
I think it is also worth noting that the countries most supportive of Ukraine (the former Soviet bloc countries like Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc.) are all united in fear of Russia. The USA is a far greater power than both Mexico and Canada, but they do not fear the US the same way the former Soviet bloc fears Russia. With exception to Belarus, why do they all choose to turn away from Russia? Is it because they know what life under Russian domination is and they choose the alternative? Why don't they trust Russia?
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calpoly
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In reply to golden sloth • 9:18p, 12/12/22
golden sloth said:
oski003 said:
sycasey said:
oski003 said:
With that being said, I am not saying that Russia's invasion in Ukraine is justified because they are fighting Nazis. I am saying that Ukraine is an ethnically diverse country and the entire country did not revolt in the Maidan Revolution. It was driven from the West.

It was driven by people in Ukraine who would much rather be part of the West than remain within Russia's sphere of influence. No doubt the West encouraged it, but it was mostly coming from within Ukraine.


That's fair.
I think it is also worth noting that the countries most supportive of Ukraine (the former Soviet bloc countries like Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc.) are all united in fear of Russia. The USA is a far greater power than both Mexico and Canada, but they do not fear the US the same way the former Soviet bloc fears Russia. With exception to Belarus, why do they all choose to turn away from Russia? Is it because they know what life under Russian domination is and they choose the alternative? Why don't they trust Russia?
Are you asking Cal88 and 003 to actual think? What a novel idea!
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Unit2Sucks
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In reply to oski003 • 9:26p, 12/12/22
oski003 said:
Unit2Sucks said:
oski003 said:
sycasey said:

Right, after Ukrainians threw out the pro-Russian government they didn't like, Russia decided to take part of their country. I remember.


All Ukrainians threw out the government? Did any Nazi militias help them? What about the Ukrainians that liked the government allying with Russia, instead of the West?
The nazi militias BS is a complete non-sequitur. I find it ironic that a person who thinks Robert E Lee is an American hero doesn't understand why Bandera still is a popular figure in Ukraine. I'm sure plenty of GOPers would be first in line to defend statues of old Ukrainian war heroes regardless of their affiliation with nazis.

Anti-semiticism has always been a problem in Europe, including Russia, Ukraine and all surrounding areas. I think it's disgusting and pathetic but losers cling to anti-semitism like flies on sh)t. Part of my family fled to America to avoid anti-semitic persecution in czarist russia. Another part fled pogroms in Austria and Poland, Nazis everywhere and settled briefly in Galicia before eventually leaving for less anti-semitic conditions in the US.

But let's be clear, while some Kremlin apologists pay lip service to the anti-semitic situation in Ukraine, it has nothing to do with this war and is just a distraction that purveyors of kremlin disinformation use to distract people. Dealing with anti-semitism has never been a goal for Russia with respect to this "special military operation" or anywhere else. If Putin or Russia cared about anti-semitism, they would do something about it in the Russian military, where it is a huge problem or in Russia generally. There is no reason to believe that anti-semitism is a bigger problem in Ukraine than it is in Russia. Here's another tell that Putin never really cared about anti-semitism - in all the discussion of Minsk 3 or other potential offramps to the war, not a single person has ever mentioned doing anything to reduce the impact of anti-semitism in Ukraine.


Let's be clear here, once again you've inputted a bunch of things into another person's argument and argued against all the things you have made up in your head. Wonderful. The discussion was on whether or not everyone in Ukraine wanted to overthrow the government. The protestors needed Nazi militia in their coup. Even if you downplay Pravy Sektor's role in the revolution, a prominent right wing political party took seats in the government.

Yanukovych's Russification policies set off a counter-reaction and bumped up the popularity of Svoboda ("Freedom") a radical Ukrainian nationalist party that enjoys support in the west of the country, particularly in Galicia, and polled over 10% in the 2012 elections winning 38 seats in the 450-strong parliament. Led by Oleh Tyahnybok, Svoboda is now part of Ukraine's government, holding four cabinet positions, including deputy prime minister.

The party's neofascist past is clear. Founded in 1991 as an anti-Communist movement, Svoboda was previously called the Socio-National Party of Ukraine a nod to national socialism. Its symbol was Nazi too: a swastika-like Wolfsangel. Tyahnybok dumped the Hitler paraphernalia when he renamed the party Svoboda in 2004, on becoming leader. The same year, however, he was ejected from the mainstream Our Ukraine faction after referring to the "Muscovite-Jewish mafia".

With that being said, I am not saying that Russia's invasion in Ukraine is justified because they are fighting Nazis. I am saying that Ukraine is an ethnically diverse country and the entire country did not revolt in the Maidan Revolution. It was driven from the West.

Odd that you mention American influence in the revolution without acknowledging that Yanukovych was an errand boy for Russian oligarchs, and that Paul Manafort, funded by Oleg Deripaska, helped put him in power after the previous Russian handlers failed.


Quote:
When Manafort arrived, the candidate of this clique, Viktor Yanukovych, was facing allegations that he had tried to rig the 2004 presidential election with fraud and intimidation, and possibly by poisoning his opponent with dioxin. He lost the election anyway, despite having imported a slew of consultants from Moscow. After that humiliating defeat, Yanukovych and the oligarchs who'd supported him were desperate for a new guru.

Manafort often justified his work in Ukraine by arguing that he hoped to guide the country toward Europe and the West. But his polling data suggested that Yanukovych should accentuate cultural divisions in the country, playing to the sense of victimization felt by Russian speakers in eastern Ukraine. And sure enough, his clients railed against nato expansion. When a U.S. diplomat discovered a rabidly anti-American speech on the Party of Regions' website, Manafort told him, "But it isn't on the English version."
Yanukovych's party succeeded in the parliamentary elections beyond all expectations, and the oligarchs who'd funded it came to regard Manafort with immense respect. As a result, Manafort began spending longer spans of time in Ukraine. One of his greatest gifts as a businessman was his audacity, and his Ukrainian benefactors had amassed enormous fortunes.

Of course there is much more to the story, as I posted last month. Look up the Mariupol plan and how Putin and Russia attempted to take over Ukraine through deception before making claims about how the west drove the resolution, which was responsive to unwanted Russian interference. The people of Ukraine, like those of other soviet bloc countries, wanted nothing to do with Russia for the most part. They lived the experience and wanted to remain independent.

Obviously there are some prolific purveyors of misinformation here, which I no longer bother trying to read or address, but I do think that this micro-discussion is an attempt to be more grounded in reality. At least I hope it is.
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sycasey
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In reply to calpoly • 10:29p, 12/12/22
calpoly said:
golden sloth said:
oski003 said:
sycasey said:
oski003 said:
With that being said, I am not saying that Russia's invasion in Ukraine is justified because they are fighting Nazis. I am saying that Ukraine is an ethnically diverse country and the entire country did not revolt in the Maidan Revolution. It was driven from the West.

It was driven by people in Ukraine who would much rather be part of the West than remain within Russia's sphere of influence. No doubt the West encouraged it, but it was mostly coming from within Ukraine.


That's fair.
I think it is also worth noting that the countries most supportive of Ukraine (the former Soviet bloc countries like Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc.) are all united in fear of Russia. The USA is a far greater power than both Mexico and Canada, but they do not fear the US the same way the former Soviet bloc fears Russia. With exception to Belarus, why do they all choose to turn away from Russia? Is it because they know what life under Russian domination is and they choose the alternative? Why don't they trust Russia?
Are you asking Cal88 and 003 to actual think? What a novel idea!

Cal88 knows what he's doing.
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6:57a, 12/13/22
So does Time Magazine hero general, Zaluzhny, he knows what he's doing when he's posing in front of busts and portraits of Bandera and another Ukrainian SS officer. At least with Bandera's bust and portrait, they had the decency to not use his likeness in full nazi regalia.



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7:00a, 12/13/22
Everyone in Ukraine "stands with Ukraine", it's just that if you're not with their nationalist program, the standing can get a bit more strenuous...

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In reply to golden sloth • 7:52a, 12/13/22
golden sloth said:
oski003 said:
sycasey said:
oski003 said:
With that being said, I am not saying that Russia's invasion in Ukraine is justified because they are fighting Nazis. I am saying that Ukraine is an ethnically diverse country and the entire country did not revolt in the Maidan Revolution. It was driven from the West.

It was driven by people in Ukraine who would much rather be part of the West than remain within Russia's sphere of influence. No doubt the West encouraged it, but it was mostly coming from within Ukraine.


That's fair.
I think it is also worth noting that the countries most supportive of Ukraine (the former Soviet bloc countries like Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc.) are all united in fear of Russia. The USA is a far greater power than both Mexico and Canada, but they do not fear the US the same way the former Soviet bloc fears Russia. With exception to Belarus, why do they all choose to turn away from Russia? Is it because they know what life under Russian domination is and they choose the alternative? Why don't they trust Russia?

You're conflating Russia with the Soviet Union, which a lot of people in EE also do. Countries like Poland and Ukraine would be better off adopting the old Finnish model of neutrality/independence and maintaining economic relationships with both the EU and Russia, especially Ukraine, which has a large industrial infrastructure that was already set up to supply the Russian market, and was the hub for Russian natural gas. This, along with its soviet era nuclear energy, could have positioned Ukraine as the lowest cost manufacturer in Europe, leader in both labor and energy costs on the continent.

Instead Ukraine has never moved past the post-communist neoliberal oligarch corruption stage. That's the reason it went from the richest, most advanced and industrialized state in the USSR to the poorest, most corrupt country in Europe, with a GDP per capita 3 times lower than Russia's. Its industrial infrastructure has been left to rot, and its huge resources have been sold off to western multinationals by local oligarchs. These multinationals benefit from Ukraine staying in a 3rd world-like economic climate, not unlike many countries in the third world that are being exploited, buying assets for pennies on the dollar.

Quote:
Ukraine opens up for Monsanto, land grabs and GMOs

[url=https://theecologist.org/profile/joyce-nelson][/url]Joyce Nelson
11th September 2014

Dying for GMOs? One of 35 members of the neo-nazi Aidar Battalion killed in an ambush by rebels in East Ukraine, 6 September 2014. Photo: Colonel Cassad.

Hidden from mainstream media exposure, the World Bank and IMF loan has opened up Ukraine to major corporate inroads, writes Joyce Nelson. Loan conditions are forcing the deeply indebted country to open up to GMO crops, and lift the ban on private sector land ownership. US corporations are jubilant at the 'goldmine' that awaits them.
https://theecologist.org/2014/sep/11/ukraine-opens-monsanto-land-grabs-and-gmos

https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/sites/oaklandinstitute.org/files/Brief_CorporateTakeovero***raine_0.pdf
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oski003
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In reply to Cal88 • 7:59a, 12/13/22
Cal88 said:
golden sloth said:
oski003 said:
sycasey said:
oski003 said:
With that being said, I am not saying that Russia's invasion in Ukraine is justified because they are fighting Nazis. I am saying that Ukraine is an ethnically diverse country and the entire country did not revolt in the Maidan Revolution. It was driven from the West.

It was driven by people in Ukraine who would much rather be part of the West than remain within Russia's sphere of influence. No doubt the West encouraged it, but it was mostly coming from within Ukraine.


That's fair.
I think it is also worth noting that the countries most supportive of Ukraine (the former Soviet bloc countries like Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc.) are all united in fear of Russia. The USA is a far greater power than both Mexico and Canada, but they do not fear the US the same way the former Soviet bloc fears Russia. With exception to Belarus, why do they all choose to turn away from Russia? Is it because they know what life under Russian domination is and they choose the alternative? Why don't they trust Russia?

You're conflating Russia with the Soviet Union, which a lot of people in EE also do. Countries like Poland and Ukraine would be better off adopting the old Finnish model of neutrality/independence and maintaining economic relationships with both the EU and Russia, especially Ukraine, which has a large industrial infrastructure that was already set up to supply the Russian market, and was the hub for Russian natural gas. This, along with its soviet era nuclear energy, could have positioned Ukraine as the lowest cost manufacturer in Europe, leader in both labor and energy costs on the continent.

Instead Ukraine has never moved past the post-communist neoliberal oligarch corruption stage. That's the reason it went from the richest, most advanced and industrialized state in the USSR to the poorest, most corrupt country in Europe, with a GDP per capita 3 times lower than Russia's. Its industrial infrastructure has been left to rot, and its huge resources have been sold off to western multinationals by local oligarchs. These multinationals benefit from Ukraine staying in a 3rd world-like economic climate, not unlike many countries in the third world that are being exploited, buying assets for pennies on the dollar.

Quote:
Ukraine opens up for Monsanto, land grabs and GMOs

[url=https://theecologist.org/profile/joyce-nelson][/url]Joyce Nelson
11th September 2014

Dying for GMOs? One of 35 members of the neo-nazi Aidar Battalion killed in an ambush by rebels in East Ukraine, 6 September 2014. Photo: Colonel Cassad.

Hidden from mainstream media exposure, the World Bank and IMF loan has opened up Ukraine to major corporate inroads, writes Joyce Nelson. Loan conditions are forcing the deeply indebted country to open up to GMO crops, and lift the ban on private sector land ownership. US corporations are jubilant at the 'goldmine' that awaits them.
https://theecologist.org/2014/sep/11/ukraine-opens-monsanto-land-grabs-and-gmos

https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/sites/oaklandinstitute.org/files/Brief_CorporateTakeovero***raine_0.pdf


Why do Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia, etc. fear Russia, yet the U.S.'s neighbors do not? That was his question, which you sidestepped. Can that question be directly addressed?
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Cal88
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In reply to oski003 • 8:20a, 12/13/22
oski003 said:
Cal88 said:
golden sloth said:
oski003 said:
sycasey said:
oski003 said:
With that being said, I am not saying that Russia's invasion in Ukraine is justified because they are fighting Nazis. I am saying that Ukraine is an ethnically diverse country and the entire country did not revolt in the Maidan Revolution. It was driven from the West.

It was driven by people in Ukraine who would much rather be part of the West than remain within Russia's sphere of influence. No doubt the West encouraged it, but it was mostly coming from within Ukraine.


That's fair.
I think it is also worth noting that the countries most supportive of Ukraine (the former Soviet bloc countries like Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc.) are all united in fear of Russia. The USA is a far greater power than both Mexico and Canada, but they do not fear the US the same way the former Soviet bloc fears Russia. With exception to Belarus, why do they all choose to turn away from Russia? Is it because they know what life under Russian domination is and they choose the alternative? Why don't they trust Russia?

You're conflating Russia with the Soviet Union, which a lot of people in EE also do. Countries like Poland and Ukraine would be better off adopting the old Finnish model of neutrality/independence and maintaining economic relationships with both the EU and Russia, especially Ukraine, which has a large industrial infrastructure that was already set up to supply the Russian market, and was the hub for Russian natural gas. This, along with its soviet era nuclear energy, could have positioned Ukraine as the lowest cost manufacturer in Europe, leader in both labor and energy costs on the continent.

Instead Ukraine has never moved past the post-communist neoliberal oligarch corruption stage. That's the reason it went from the richest, most advanced and industrialized state in the USSR to the poorest, most corrupt country in Europe, with a GDP per capita 3 times lower than Russia's. Its industrial infrastructure has been left to rot, and its huge resources have been sold off to western multinationals by local oligarchs. These multinationals benefit from Ukraine staying in a 3rd world-like economic climate, not unlike many countries in the third world that are being exploited, buying assets for pennies on the dollar.

Quote:
Ukraine opens up for Monsanto, land grabs and GMOs

[url=https://theecologist.org/profile/joyce-nelson][/url]Joyce Nelson
11th September 2014

Dying for GMOs? One of 35 members of the neo-nazi Aidar Battalion killed in an ambush by rebels in East Ukraine, 6 September 2014. Photo: Colonel Cassad.

Hidden from mainstream media exposure, the World Bank and IMF loan has opened up Ukraine to major corporate inroads, writes Joyce Nelson. Loan conditions are forcing the deeply indebted country to open up to GMO crops, and lift the ban on private sector land ownership. US corporations are jubilant at the 'goldmine' that awaits them.
https://theecologist.org/2014/sep/11/ukraine-opens-monsanto-land-grabs-and-gmos

https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/sites/oaklandinstitute.org/files/Brief_CorporateTakeovero***raine_0.pdf


Why do Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia, etc. fear Russia, yet the U.S.'s neighbors do not? That was his question, which you sidestepped. Can that question be directly addressed?

It boils down to Polish and Baltic nationalism, those nationalistic tendencies are easily manipulated. The Poles have a tendency to hate both the Germans and the Russians. The history of eastern Europe is strewn with national conflicts, with borders constantly shifting. People in western Europe have put aside those nationalistic tendencies, the hate today is mostly confined to soccer tournaments, whereas in EE those tendencies are still at the forefront.

There is also an inferiority complex that is shared across EE with regards to western Europe and the US, due to their material poverty under communism, and they conflate communism with Russia.

Also, you might want to check your assumption about what people in Latin America think of the US in terms of its continued interventions into their political and economic affairs, the Monroe Doctrine is alive and well.
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sycasey
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In reply to Cal88 • 9:41a, 12/13/22
Cal88 said:
The Poles have a tendency to hate both the Germans and the Russians.
Because they were invaded and ruled over by both.

Same reason Ukrainians now hate Russians.
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tequila4kapp
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In reply to Cal88 • 9:41a, 12/13/22
Cal88 said:
golden sloth said:
oski003 said:
sycasey said:
oski003 said:
With that being said, I am not saying that Russia's invasion in Ukraine is justified because they are fighting Nazis. I am saying that Ukraine is an ethnically diverse country and the entire country did not revolt in the Maidan Revolution. It was driven from the West.

It was driven by people in Ukraine who would much rather be part of the West than remain within Russia's sphere of influence. No doubt the West encouraged it, but it was mostly coming from within Ukraine.


That's fair.
I think it is also worth noting that the countries most supportive of Ukraine (the former Soviet bloc countries like Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc.) are all united in fear of Russia. The USA is a far greater power than both Mexico and Canada, but they do not fear the US the same way the former Soviet bloc fears Russia. With exception to Belarus, why do they all choose to turn away from Russia? Is it because they know what life under Russian domination is and they choose the alternative? Why don't they trust Russia?

You're conflating Russia with the Soviet Union, which a lot of people in EE also do. Countries like Poland and Ukraine would be better off adopting the old Finnish model of neutrality/independence and maintaining economic relationships with both the EU and Russia, especially Ukraine, which has a large industrial infrastructure that was already set up to supply the Russian market, and was the hub for Russian natural gas. This, along with its soviet era nuclear energy, could have positioned Ukraine as the lowest cost manufacturer in Europe, leader in both labor and energy costs on the continent.

Instead Ukraine has never moved past the post-communist neoliberal oligarch corruption stage. That's the reason it went from the richest, most advanced and industrialized state in the USSR to the poorest, most corrupt country in Europe, with a GDP per capita 3 times lower than Russia's. Its industrial infrastructure has been left to rot, and its huge resources have been sold off to western multinationals by local oligarchs. These multinationals benefit from Ukraine staying in a 3rd world-like economic climate, not unlike many countries in the third world that are being exploited, buying assets for pennies on the dollar.

Quote:
Ukraine opens up for Monsanto, land grabs and GMOs

[url=https://theecologist.org/profile/joyce-nelson][/url]Joyce Nelson
11th September 2014

Dying for GMOs? One of 35 members of the neo-nazi Aidar Battalion killed in an ambush by rebels in East Ukraine, 6 September 2014. Photo: Colonel Cassad.

Hidden from mainstream media exposure, the World Bank and IMF loan has opened up Ukraine to major corporate inroads, writes Joyce Nelson. Loan conditions are forcing the deeply indebted country to open up to GMO crops, and lift the ban on private sector land ownership. US corporations are jubilant at the 'goldmine' that awaits them.
https://theecologist.org/2014/sep/11/ukraine-opens-monsanto-land-grabs-and-gmos

https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/sites/oaklandinstitute.org/files/Brief_CorporateTakeovero***raine_0.pdf
Perhaps your Ukraine economic question is answered in the same post. The most advanced Russian/USSR partner is poorest European country.

You also appear to miss the part where Russia's neighbors choose to keep Russia at arms length either politically or economically precisely because Russia isn't trustworthy, as demonstrated most recently by their actions in Ukraine.
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Cal88
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In reply to tequila4kapp • 3:58p, 12/13/22
tequila4kapp said:
Cal88 said:
golden sloth said:
oski003 said:
sycasey said:
oski003 said:
With that being said, I am not saying that Russia's invasion in Ukraine is justified because they are fighting Nazis. I am saying that Ukraine is an ethnically diverse country and the entire country did not revolt in the Maidan Revolution. It was driven from the West.

It was driven by people in Ukraine who would much rather be part of the West than remain within Russia's sphere of influence. No doubt the West encouraged it, but it was mostly coming from within Ukraine.


That's fair.
I think it is also worth noting that the countries most supportive of Ukraine (the former Soviet bloc countries like Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc.) are all united in fear of Russia. The USA is a far greater power than both Mexico and Canada, but they do not fear the US the same way the former Soviet bloc fears Russia. With exception to Belarus, why do they all choose to turn away from Russia? Is it because they know what life under Russian domination is and they choose the alternative? Why don't they trust Russia?

You're conflating Russia with the Soviet Union, which a lot of people in EE also do. Countries like Poland and Ukraine would be better off adopting the old Finnish model of neutrality/independence and maintaining economic relationships with both the EU and Russia, especially Ukraine, which has a large industrial infrastructure that was already set up to supply the Russian market, and was the hub for Russian natural gas. This, along with its soviet era nuclear energy, could have positioned Ukraine as the lowest cost manufacturer in Europe, leader in both labor and energy costs on the continent.

Instead Ukraine has never moved past the post-communist neoliberal oligarch corruption stage. That's the reason it went from the richest, most advanced and industrialized state in the USSR to the poorest, most corrupt country in Europe, with a GDP per capita 3 times lower than Russia's. Its industrial infrastructure has been left to rot, and its huge resources have been sold off to western multinationals by local oligarchs. These multinationals benefit from Ukraine staying in a 3rd world-like economic climate, not unlike many countries in the third world that are being exploited, buying assets for pennies on the dollar.

Quote:
Ukraine opens up for Monsanto, land grabs and GMOs

[url=https://theecologist.org/profile/joyce-nelson][/url]Joyce Nelson
11th September 2014

Dying for GMOs? One of 35 members of the neo-nazi Aidar Battalion killed in an ambush by rebels in East Ukraine, 6 September 2014. Photo: Colonel Cassad.

Hidden from mainstream media exposure, the World Bank and IMF loan has opened up Ukraine to major corporate inroads, writes Joyce Nelson. Loan conditions are forcing the deeply indebted country to open up to GMO crops, and lift the ban on private sector land ownership. US corporations are jubilant at the 'goldmine' that awaits them.
https://theecologist.org/2014/sep/11/ukraine-opens-monsanto-land-grabs-and-gmos

https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/sites/oaklandinstitute.org/files/Brief_CorporateTakeovero***raine_0.pdf
Perhaps your Ukraine economic question is answered in the same post. The most advanced Russian/USSR partner is poorest European country.

You also appear to miss the part where Russia's neighbors choose to keep Russia at arms length either politically or economically precisely because Russia isn't trustworthy, as demonstrated most recently by their actions in Ukraine.

Ukraine's economic problems are not a Soviet problem, they're a Ukrainian corruption problem, that country being the most corrupt in Europe, much more so than other former Soviet or eastern block countries.

Kazakhstan, former soviet state, has a higher GDP than Ukraine, with less than half the population. Belarus which is an authoritarian country and also a former Soviet state is also significantly richer than Ukraine.

Ukraine's GDP per capita is below that of El Salvador,, Guatemala and Jamaica, just above that of Egypt and Namibia. Here's a country that started out with one of the best power grids in Europe including some of the largest nuclear powerplants, lots of heavy industry, steel, metals, shipyards and advanced tech like rocket factories and aerospace industry (Antonov, Motorsich etc), and now its economy registers below that of El Salvador...

Ukraine is a very rich country that has been sucked dry of all of its resources and its industry has been left to rot, and that was before any fighting started. Russia was in the same boat in the 1990s, but has since then turned the corner with Putin reigning in his oligarchs and making large infrastructure investments, as well as reforms like the nationalization of all oil and gas and other sectors, payment of national debt (vs Ukraine being subjugated to crippling IMF loan sharking and stripping of its national assets and resources).

Russia today has a large national fund and has accumulated large gold and currency reserves (though about a third are being seized by the EU and US). Ukrainian leaders like Zelensky or Poroshenko have been more interested in their billion dollar fortunes than in reigning in their national debt.

Russia is set to pass Germany as the world's 5th largest economy PPP later this decade. It has turned from a wheat importer in the 1990s to the world's largest wheat exporter, becoming the global market leader, position it used to have early in the 20th century before the Bolshevik Revolution destroyed its farms and economy.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-16/russia-is-exporting-more-wheat-than-any-country-in-25-years

Quote:
"When you look at the last two decades, Russia has shown such impressive growth," Stefan Vogel, global sector strategist for grain and oilseeds at Rabobank, told World Grain. "You look at the acreage changes; they've gone up 30% to 50% for many of the grain crops such as wheat and sunflower seed. Production has grown three times more than it was. Wheat production nowadays is 150% above where it was 20 years ago. It's been impressive to see how much this country was able to scale up production."

The first year of the 21st century, Russia exported a modest 696,000 tonnes of wheat. Ten years later, having made tremendous inroads into Asian, Middle East and African markets, Russia increased that total to 18.5 million tonnes. ...In 2012, Russian President Vladimir Putin boldly stated that Russia would double its grain exports by 2020. By 2018, Russia more than doubled that total when it exported a jaw-dropping 41.4 million tonnes of wheat, which still stands as a record
https://www.world-grain.com/articles/16273-the-fall-and-rise-of-russian-wheat

Russia made large investments into its infrastructure, ports, railroads, highways and airports. Its airports today are more modern than those in the US. It's also building up its domestic passenger jet industry with homegrown modern engines, set to enter the global market and compete with Boeing and Airbus.

Russia is going to corner other markets like it cornered the wheat market due to the fact that they have the lowest energy costs in the world today, they are going to be able to export their oil and gas indirectly through the production of energy-intensive products like metals (steel, aluminum etc), cement, paper etc., which they are able to produce domestically from raw material extraction to the final product.

Moscow and St Petersburg are first-world cities, modern large metropoles that are cleaner and safer than Paris or London.

Ukraine is the largest and wealthiest country in Europe by far in terms of its natural resources, agricultural potential, energy grid, heavy industries and tech (aerospace). Other than software/IT outsourcing, a small sector that has done relatively well, its economy has been driven into the ground by its corrupt leaders/oligarchs, while most eastern European and former soviet republics (including Russia) have done far better.
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Eastern Oregon Bear
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In reply to Cal88 • 5:00p, 12/13/22
Cal88 said:
tequila4kapp said:
Cal88 said:
golden sloth said:
oski003 said:
sycasey said:
oski003 said:
With that being said, I am not saying that Russia's invasion in Ukraine is justified because they are fighting Nazis. I am saying that Ukraine is an ethnically diverse country and the entire country did not revolt in the Maidan Revolution. It was driven from the West.

It was driven by people in Ukraine who would much rather be part of the West than remain within Russia's sphere of influence. No doubt the West encouraged it, but it was mostly coming from within Ukraine.


That's fair.
I think it is also worth noting that the countries most supportive of Ukraine (the former Soviet bloc countries like Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc.) are all united in fear of Russia. The USA is a far greater power than both Mexico and Canada, but they do not fear the US the same way the former Soviet bloc fears Russia. With exception to Belarus, why do they all choose to turn away from Russia? Is it because they know what life under Russian domination is and they choose the alternative? Why don't they trust Russia?

You're conflating Russia with the Soviet Union, which a lot of people in EE also do. Countries like Poland and Ukraine would be better off adopting the old Finnish model of neutrality/independence and maintaining economic relationships with both the EU and Russia, especially Ukraine, which has a large industrial infrastructure that was already set up to supply the Russian market, and was the hub for Russian natural gas. This, along with its soviet era nuclear energy, could have positioned Ukraine as the lowest cost manufacturer in Europe, leader in both labor and energy costs on the continent.

Instead Ukraine has never moved past the post-communist neoliberal oligarch corruption stage. That's the reason it went from the richest, most advanced and industrialized state in the USSR to the poorest, most corrupt country in Europe, with a GDP per capita 3 times lower than Russia's. Its industrial infrastructure has been left to rot, and its huge resources have been sold off to western multinationals by local oligarchs. These multinationals benefit from Ukraine staying in a 3rd world-like economic climate, not unlike many countries in the third world that are being exploited, buying assets for pennies on the dollar.

Quote:
Ukraine opens up for Monsanto, land grabs and GMOs

[url=https://theecologist.org/profile/joyce-nelson][/url]Joyce Nelson
11th September 2014

Dying for GMOs? One of 35 members of the neo-nazi Aidar Battalion killed in an ambush by rebels in East Ukraine, 6 September 2014. Photo: Colonel Cassad.

Hidden from mainstream media exposure, the World Bank and IMF loan has opened up Ukraine to major corporate inroads, writes Joyce Nelson. Loan conditions are forcing the deeply indebted country to open up to GMO crops, and lift the ban on private sector land ownership. US corporations are jubilant at the 'goldmine' that awaits them.
https://theecologist.org/2014/sep/11/ukraine-opens-monsanto-land-grabs-and-gmos

https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/sites/oaklandinstitute.org/files/Brief_CorporateTakeovero***raine_0.pdf
Perhaps your Ukraine economic question is answered in the same post. The most advanced Russian/USSR partner is poorest European country.

You also appear to miss the part where Russia's neighbors choose to keep Russia at arms length either politically or economically precisely because Russia isn't trustworthy, as demonstrated most recently by their actions in Ukraine.

Ukraine's economic problems are not a Soviet problem, they're a Ukrainian corruption problem, that country being the most corrupt in Europe, much more so than other former Soviet or eastern block countries.

Kazakhstan, former soviet state, has a higher GDP than Ukraine, with less than half the population. Belarus which is an authoritarian country and also a former Soviet state is also significantly richer than Ukraine.

Ukraine's GDP per capita is below that of El Salvador,, Guatemala and Jamaica, just above that of Egypt and Namibia. Here's a country that started out with one of the best power grids in Europe including some of the largest nuclear powerplants, lots of heavy industry, steel, metals, shipyards and advanced tech like rocket factories and aerospace industry (Antonov, Motorsich etc), and now its economy registers below that of El Salvador...

Ukraine is a very rich country that has been sucked dry of all of its resources and its industry has been left to rot, and that was before any fighting started. Russia was in the same boat in the 1990s, but has since then turned the corner with Putin reigning in his oligarchs and making large infrastructure investments, as well as reforms like the nationalization of all oil and gas and other sectors, payment of national debt (vs Ukraine being subjugated to crippling IMF loan sharking and stripping of its national assets and resources).

Russia today has a large national fund and has accumulated large gold and currency reserves (though about a third are being seized by the EU and US). Ukrainian leaders like Zelensky or Poroshenko have been more interested in their billion dollar fortunes than in reigning in their national debt.

Russia is set to pass Germany as the world's 5th largest economy PPP later this decade. It has turned from a wheat importer in the 1990s to the world's largest wheat exporter, becoming the global market leader, position it used to have early in the 20th century before the Bolshevik Revolution destroyed its farms and economy.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-16/russia-is-exporting-more-wheat-than-any-country-in-25-years

Quote:
"When you look at the last two decades, Russia has shown such impressive growth," Stefan Vogel, global sector strategist for grain and oilseeds at Rabobank, told World Grain. "You look at the acreage changes; they've gone up 30% to 50% for many of the grain crops such as wheat and sunflower seed. Production has grown three times more than it was. Wheat production nowadays is 150% above where it was 20 years ago. It's been impressive to see how much this country was able to scale up production."

The first year of the 21st century, Russia exported a modest 696,000 tonnes of wheat. Ten years later, having made tremendous inroads into Asian, Middle East and African markets, Russia increased that total to 18.5 million tonnes. ...In 2012, Russian President Vladimir Putin boldly stated that Russia would double its grain exports by 2020. By 2018, Russia more than doubled that total when it exported a jaw-dropping 41.4 million tonnes of wheat, which still stands as a record
https://www.world-grain.com/articles/16273-the-fall-and-rise-of-russian-wheat

Russia made large investments into its infrastructure, ports, railroads, highways and airports. Its airports today are more modern than those in the US. It's also building up its domestic passenger jet industry with homegrown modern engines, set to enter the global market and compete with Boeing and Airbus.

Russia is going to corner other markets like it cornered the wheat market due to the fact that they have the lowest energy costs in the world today, they are going to be able to export their oil and gas indirectly through the production of energy-intensive products like metals (steel, aluminum etc), cement, paper etc., which they are able to produce domestically from raw material extraction to the final product.

Moscow and St Petersburg are first-world cities, modern large metropoles that are cleaner and safer than Paris or London.

Ukraine is the largest and wealthiest country in Europe by far in terms of its natural resources, agricultural potential, energy grid, heavy industries and tech (aerospace). Other than software/IT outsourcing, a small sector that has done relatively well, its economy has been driven into the ground by its corrupt leaders/oligarchs, while most eastern European and former soviet republics (including Russia) have done far better.
Even if Ukraine is an economic boogeyman squandering it's natural resources and business potential, it's still not a justification for Russia's invasion of the Ukraine.
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calbear93
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In reply to Eastern Oregon Bear • 5:04p, 12/13/22
Eastern Oregon Bear said:
Cal88 said:
tequila4kapp said:
Cal88 said:
golden sloth said:
oski003 said:
sycasey said:
oski003 said:
With that being said, I am not saying that Russia's invasion in Ukraine is justified because they are fighting Nazis. I am saying that Ukraine is an ethnically diverse country and the entire country did not revolt in the Maidan Revolution. It was driven from the West.

It was driven by people in Ukraine who would much rather be part of the West than remain within Russia's sphere of influence. No doubt the West encouraged it, but it was mostly coming from within Ukraine.


That's fair.
I think it is also worth noting that the countries most supportive of Ukraine (the former Soviet bloc countries like Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc.) are all united in fear of Russia. The USA is a far greater power than both Mexico and Canada, but they do not fear the US the same way the former Soviet bloc fears Russia. With exception to Belarus, why do they all choose to turn away from Russia? Is it because they know what life under Russian domination is and they choose the alternative? Why don't they trust Russia?

You're conflating Russia with the Soviet Union, which a lot of people in EE also do. Countries like Poland and Ukraine would be better off adopting the old Finnish model of neutrality/independence and maintaining economic relationships with both the EU and Russia, especially Ukraine, which has a large industrial infrastructure that was already set up to supply the Russian market, and was the hub for Russian natural gas. This, along with its soviet era nuclear energy, could have positioned Ukraine as the lowest cost manufacturer in Europe, leader in both labor and energy costs on the continent.

Instead Ukraine has never moved past the post-communist neoliberal oligarch corruption stage. That's the reason it went from the richest, most advanced and industrialized state in the USSR to the poorest, most corrupt country in Europe, with a GDP per capita 3 times lower than Russia's. Its industrial infrastructure has been left to rot, and its huge resources have been sold off to western multinationals by local oligarchs. These multinationals benefit from Ukraine staying in a 3rd world-like economic climate, not unlike many countries in the third world that are being exploited, buying assets for pennies on the dollar.

Quote:
Ukraine opens up for Monsanto, land grabs and GMOs

[url=https://theecologist.org/profile/joyce-nelson][/url]Joyce Nelson
11th September 2014

Dying for GMOs? One of 35 members of the neo-nazi Aidar Battalion killed in an ambush by rebels in East Ukraine, 6 September 2014. Photo: Colonel Cassad.

Hidden from mainstream media exposure, the World Bank and IMF loan has opened up Ukraine to major corporate inroads, writes Joyce Nelson. Loan conditions are forcing the deeply indebted country to open up to GMO crops, and lift the ban on private sector land ownership. US corporations are jubilant at the 'goldmine' that awaits them.
https://theecologist.org/2014/sep/11/ukraine-opens-monsanto-land-grabs-and-gmos

https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/sites/oaklandinstitute.org/files/Brief_CorporateTakeovero***raine_0.pdf
Perhaps your Ukraine economic question is answered in the same post. The most advanced Russian/USSR partner is poorest European country.

You also appear to miss the part where Russia's neighbors choose to keep Russia at arms length either politically or economically precisely because Russia isn't trustworthy, as demonstrated most recently by their actions in Ukraine.

Ukraine's economic problems are not a Soviet problem, they're a Ukrainian corruption problem, that country being the most corrupt in Europe, much more so than other former Soviet or eastern block countries.

Kazakhstan, former soviet state, has a higher GDP than Ukraine, with less than half the population. Belarus which is an authoritarian country and also a former Soviet state is also significantly richer than Ukraine.

Ukraine's GDP per capita is below that of El Salvador,, Guatemala and Jamaica, just above that of Egypt and Namibia. Here's a country that started out with one of the best power grids in Europe including some of the largest nuclear powerplants, lots of heavy industry, steel, metals, shipyards and advanced tech like rocket factories and aerospace industry (Antonov, Motorsich etc), and now its economy registers below that of El Salvador...

Ukraine is a very rich country that has been sucked dry of all of its resources and its industry has been left to rot, and that was before any fighting started. Russia was in the same boat in the 1990s, but has since then turned the corner with Putin reigning in his oligarchs and making large infrastructure investments, as well as reforms like the nationalization of all oil and gas and other sectors, payment of national debt (vs Ukraine being subjugated to crippling IMF loan sharking and stripping of its national assets and resources).

Russia today has a large national fund and has accumulated large gold and currency reserves (though about a third are being seized by the EU and US). Ukrainian leaders like Zelensky or Poroshenko have been more interested in their billion dollar fortunes than in reigning in their national debt.

Russia is set to pass Germany as the world's 5th largest economy PPP later this decade. It has turned from a wheat importer in the 1990s to the world's largest wheat exporter, becoming the global market leader, position it used to have early in the 20th century before the Bolshevik Revolution destroyed its farms and economy.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-16/russia-is-exporting-more-wheat-than-any-country-in-25-years

Quote:
"When you look at the last two decades, Russia has shown such impressive growth," Stefan Vogel, global sector strategist for grain and oilseeds at Rabobank, told World Grain. "You look at the acreage changes; they've gone up 30% to 50% for many of the grain crops such as wheat and sunflower seed. Production has grown three times more than it was. Wheat production nowadays is 150% above where it was 20 years ago. It's been impressive to see how much this country was able to scale up production."

The first year of the 21st century, Russia exported a modest 696,000 tonnes of wheat. Ten years later, having made tremendous inroads into Asian, Middle East and African markets, Russia increased that total to 18.5 million tonnes. ...In 2012, Russian President Vladimir Putin boldly stated that Russia would double its grain exports by 2020. By 2018, Russia more than doubled that total when it exported a jaw-dropping 41.4 million tonnes of wheat, which still stands as a record
https://www.world-grain.com/articles/16273-the-fall-and-rise-of-russian-wheat

Russia made large investments into its infrastructure, ports, railroads, highways and airports. Its airports today are more modern than those in the US. It's also building up its domestic passenger jet industry with homegrown modern engines, set to enter the global market and compete with Boeing and Airbus.

Russia is going to corner other markets like it cornered the wheat market due to the fact that they have the lowest energy costs in the world today, they are going to be able to export their oil and gas indirectly through the production of energy-intensive products like metals (steel, aluminum etc), cement, paper etc., which they are able to produce domestically from raw material extraction to the final product.

Moscow and St Petersburg are first-world cities, modern large metropoles that are cleaner and safer than Paris or London.

Ukraine is the largest and wealthiest country in Europe by far in terms of its natural resources, agricultural potential, energy grid, heavy industries and tech (aerospace). Other than software/IT outsourcing, a small sector that has done relatively well, its economy has been driven into the ground by its corrupt leaders/oligarchs, while most eastern European and former soviet republics (including Russia) have done far better.
Even if Ukraine is an economic boogeyman squandering it's natural resources and business potential, it's still not a justification for Russia's invasion of the Ukraine.
I don't think those on the far right and those on the far left realize how much of our financial stability and well being depend on geopolitical events and that our financial future depends on deterring a country like Russia from doing this again. Our action isn't for Ukraine. Our action isn't even solely based on Russia's invasion. Our actions are to make sure anyone else, whether China or any other bad players, think twice before doing this again and causing massive financial disruption to the rest of the whole.
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