sycasey said:

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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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Cal88 said:

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tequila4kapp said:

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Cal88 said:

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golden sloth said:

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oski003 said:

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sycasey said:

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oski003 said:

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With that being said, I am not saying that Russia's invasion in Ukraine is justified because they are fighting Nazis. I am saying that Ukraine is an ethnically diverse country and the entire country did not revolt in the Maidan Revolution. It was driven from the West.

---

It was driven by people in Ukraine who would much rather be part of the West than remain within Russia's sphere of influence. No doubt the West encouraged it, but it was mostly coming from within Ukraine.

---

That's fair.

---

I think it is also worth noting that the countries most supportive of Ukraine (the former Soviet bloc countries like Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc.) are all united in fear of Russia. The USA is a far greater power than both Mexico and Canada, but they do not fear the US the same way the former Soviet bloc fears Russia. With exception to Belarus, why do they all choose to turn away from Russia? Is it because they know what life under Russian domination is and they choose the alternative? Why don't they trust Russia?

---

You're conflating Russia with the Soviet Union, which a lot of people in EE also do. Countries like Poland and Ukraine would be better off adopting the old Finnish model of neutrality/independence and maintaining economic relationships with both the EU and Russia, especially Ukraine, which has a large industrial infrastructure that was already set up to supply the Russian market, and was the hub for Russian natural gas. This, along with its soviet era nuclear energy, could have positioned Ukraine as the lowest cost manufacturer in Europe, leader in both labor and energy costs on the continent.

Instead Ukraine has never moved past the post-communist neoliberal oligarch corruption stage. That's the reason it went from the richest, most advanced and industrialized state in the USSR to the poorest, most corrupt country in Europe, with a GDP per capita 3 times lower than Russia's. Its industrial infrastructure has been left to rot, and its huge resources have been sold off to western multinationals by local oligarchs. These multinationals benefit from Ukraine staying in a 3rd world-like economic climate, not unlike many countries in the third world that are being exploited, buying assets for pennies on the dollar.

Quote:

---

Ukraine opens up for Monsanto, land grabs and GMOs

[url=https://theecologist.org/profile/joyce-nelson][/url]Joyce Nelson
11th September 2014

Dying for GMOs? One of 35 members of the neo-nazi Aidar Battalion killed in an ambush by rebels in East Ukraine, 6 September 2014. Photo: Colonel Cassad.

Hidden from mainstream media exposure, the World Bank and IMF loan has opened up Ukraine to major corporate inroads, writes Joyce Nelson. Loan conditions are forcing the deeply indebted country to open up to GMO crops, and lift the ban on private sector land ownership. US corporations are jubilant at the 'goldmine' that awaits them.

---

https://theecologist.org/2014/sep/11/ukraine-opens-monsanto-land-grabs-and-gmos

https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/sites/oaklandinstitute.org/files/Brief_CorporateTakeovero***raine_0.pdf

---

Perhaps your Ukraine economic question is answered in the same post. The most advanced Russian/USSR partner is poorest European country.

You also appear to miss the part where Russia's neighbors choose to keep Russia at arms length either politically or economically precisely because Russia isn't trustworthy, as demonstrated most recently by their actions in Ukraine.

---

Ukraine's economic problems are not a Soviet problem, they're a Ukrainian corruption problem, that country being the most corrupt in Europe, much more so than other former Soviet or eastern block countries.

Kazakhstan, former soviet state, has a higher GDP than Ukraine, with less than half the population. Belarus which is an authoritarian country and also a former Soviet state is also significantly richer than Ukraine.

Ukraine's GDP per capita is below that of El Salvador,, Guatemala and Jamaica, just above that of Egypt and Namibia. Here's a country that started out with one of the best power grids in Europe including some of the largest nuclear powerplants, lots of heavy industry, steel, metals, shipyards and advanced tech like rocket factories and aerospace industry (Antonov, Motorsich etc), and now its economy registers below that of El Salvador...

Ukraine is a very rich country that has been sucked dry of all of its resources and its industry has been left to rot, and that was before any fighting started. Russia was in the same boat in the 1990s, but has since then turned the corner with Putin reigning in his oligarchs and making large infrastructure investments, as well as reforms like the nationalization of all oil and gas and other sectors, payment of national debt (vs Ukraine being subjugated to crippling IMF loan sharking and stripping of its national assets and resources).

Russia today has a large national fund and has accumulated large gold and currency reserves (though about a third are being seized by the EU and US). Ukrainian leaders like Zelensky or Poroshenko have been more interested in their billion dollar fortunes than in reigning in their national debt.

Russia is set to pass Germany as the world's 5th largest economy PPP later this decade. It has turned from a wheat importer in the 1990s to the world's largest wheat exporter, becoming the global market leader, position it used to have early in the 20th century before the Bolshevik Revolution destroyed its farms and economy.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-16/russia-is-exporting-more-wheat-than-any-country-in-25-years

Quote:

---

"When you look at the last two decades, Russia has shown such impressive growth," Stefan Vogel, global sector strategist for grain and oilseeds at Rabobank, told World Grain. "You look at the acreage changes; they've gone up 30% to 50% for many of the grain crops such as wheat and sunflower seed. Production has grown three times more than it was. Wheat production nowadays is 150% above where it was 20 years ago. It's been impressive to see how much this country was able to scale up production."

The first year of the 21st century, Russia exported a modest 696,000 tonnes of wheat. Ten years later, having made tremendous inroads into Asian, Middle East and African markets, Russia increased that total to 18.5 million tonnes. ...In 2012, Russian President Vladimir Putin boldly stated that Russia would double its grain exports by 2020. By 2018, Russia more than doubled that total when it exported a jaw-dropping 41.4 million tonnes of wheat, which still stands as a record

---

https://www.world-grain.com/articles/16273-the-fall-and-rise-of-russian-wheat

Russia made large investments into its infrastructure, ports, railroads, highways and airports. Its airports today are more modern than those in the US. It's also building up its domestic passenger jet industry with homegrown modern engines, set to enter the global market and compete with Boeing and Airbus.

Russia is going to corner other markets like it cornered the wheat market due to the fact that they have the lowest energy costs in the world today, they are going to be able to export their oil and gas indirectly through the production of energy-intensive products like metals (steel, aluminum etc), cement, paper etc., which they are able to produce domestically from raw material extraction to the final product.

Moscow and St Petersburg are first-world cities, modern large metropoles that are cleaner and safer than Paris or London.

Ukraine is the largest and wealthiest country in Europe by far in terms of its natural resources, agricultural potential, energy grid, heavy industries and tech (aerospace). Other than software/IT outsourcing, a small sector that has done relatively well, its economy has been driven into the ground by its corrupt leaders/oligarchs, while most eastern European and former soviet republics (including Russia) have done far better.

---

Even if Ukraine is an economic boogeyman squandering it's natural resources and business potential, it's still not a justification for Russia's invasion of the Ukraine.

---

I asked Cal88 this question earlier in the thread: how does any of this justify Russia invading Ukraine? He didn't answer directly, though given that he's spent most of his time telling us how bad Ukraine is and how great Russia is, I think I know what his opinion is.

---

I've answered this question many times before across this thread, here is a synthesis once again:

-Ukraine has been mistreating its Russian minority, not just taping them to poles in a weird and barbaric nationalist humiation ritual, but outright bombing them in the Donbass since 2014, killing 11,000 civilians. They're still wasting the trickle of American HIMARS and French Cesar munitions to bomb the center Donetsk, city without military value.

They've also barbarically repressed Russophones who protested against the Maidan Coup, for instance burning alive and clubbing to death over 60 unarmed protestors in Odessa in May 2014.




-Ukraine has been beset with a toxic brand of nationalism that recycled WW2 era banderism and views Russians as subhuman archenemies. They have the capacity and will to manufacture nuclear bombs, along with the technology and raw materials, as well as the technology to produce ballistic missiles. In other words, a hostile government that wants to acquire WMDs and is crazy enough to use them, right at Russia's borders.

As to the timing of the Russian invasion, Ukraine massed a large number of troops in the Donbass in January and was about to overrun the rebel armies of Donetsk and Luhansk, with Crimea being the next target.

Ukraine has violated numerous times the Minsk II Agreements, and in fact both Poroshenko (who had signed the deal as president of Ukraine) and Merkel both recently admitted that Minsk II was just a ploy to gain time and have NATO rearm Ukraine to the gills before they push into the Donbass and retake Crimea.

Those are the main reasons Russia invaded Ukraine.

sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

golden sloth said:

---

oski003 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

oski003 said:

---

With that being said, I am not saying that Russia's invasion in Ukraine is justified because they are fighting Nazis. I am saying that Ukraine is an ethnically diverse country and the entire country did not revolt in the Maidan Revolution. It was driven from the West.

---

It was driven by people in Ukraine who would much rather be part of the West than remain within Russia's sphere of influence. No doubt the West encouraged it, but it was mostly coming from within Ukraine.

---

That's fair.

---

I think it is also worth noting that the countries most supportive of Ukraine (the former Soviet bloc countries like Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc.) are all united in fear of Russia. The USA is a far greater power than both Mexico and Canada, but they do not fear the US the same way the former Soviet bloc fears Russia. With exception to Belarus, why do they all choose to turn away from Russia? Is it because they know what life under Russian domination is and they choose the alternative? Why don't they trust Russia?

---

You're conflating Russia with the Soviet Union, which a lot of people in EE also do. Countries like Poland and Ukraine would be better off adopting the old Finnish model of neutrality/independence and maintaining economic relationships with both the EU and Russia, especially Ukraine, which has a large industrial infrastructure that was already set up to supply the Russian market, and was the hub for Russian natural gas. This, along with its soviet era nuclear energy, could have positioned Ukraine as the lowest cost manufacturer in Europe, leader in both labor and energy costs on the continent.

Instead Ukraine has never moved past the post-communist neoliberal oligarch corruption stage. That's the reason it went from the richest, most advanced and industrialized state in the USSR to the poorest, most corrupt country in Europe, with a GDP per capita 3 times lower than Russia's. Its industrial infrastructure has been left to rot, and its huge resources have been sold off to western multinationals by local oligarchs. These multinationals benefit from Ukraine staying in a 3rd world-like economic climate, not unlike many countries in the third world that are being exploited, buying assets for pennies on the dollar.

Quote:

---

Ukraine opens up for Monsanto, land grabs and GMOs

[url=https://theecologist.org/profile/joyce-nelson][/url]Joyce Nelson
11th September 2014

Dying for GMOs? One of 35 members of the neo-nazi Aidar Battalion killed in an ambush by rebels in East Ukraine, 6 September 2014. Photo: Colonel Cassad.

Hidden from mainstream media exposure, the World Bank and IMF loan has opened up Ukraine to major corporate inroads, writes Joyce Nelson. Loan conditions are forcing the deeply indebted country to open up to GMO crops, and lift the ban on private sector land ownership. US corporations are jubilant at the 'goldmine' that awaits them.

---

https://theecologist.org/2014/sep/11/ukraine-opens-monsanto-land-grabs-and-gmos

https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/sites/oaklandinstitute.org/files/Brief_CorporateTakeovero***raine_0.pdf

---

Perhaps your Ukraine economic question is answered in the same post. The most advanced Russian/USSR partner is poorest European country.

You also appear to miss the part where Russia's neighbors choose to keep Russia at arms length either politically or economically precisely because Russia isn't trustworthy, as demonstrated most recently by their actions in Ukraine.

---

Ukraine's economic problems are not a Soviet problem, they're a Ukrainian corruption problem, that country being the most corrupt in Europe, much more so than other former Soviet or eastern block countries.

Kazakhstan, former soviet state, has a higher GDP than Ukraine, with less than half the population. Belarus which is an authoritarian country and also a former Soviet state is also significantly richer than Ukraine.

Ukraine's GDP per capita is below that of El Salvador,, Guatemala and Jamaica, just above that of Egypt and Namibia. Here's a country that started out with one of the best power grids in Europe including some of the largest nuclear powerplants, lots of heavy industry, steel, metals, shipyards and advanced tech like rocket factories and aerospace industry (Antonov, Motorsich etc), and now its economy registers below that of El Salvador...

Ukraine is a very rich country that has been sucked dry of all of its resources and its industry has been left to rot, and that was before any fighting started. Russia was in the same boat in the 1990s, but has since then turned the corner with Putin reigning in his oligarchs and making large infrastructure investments, as well as reforms like the nationalization of all oil and gas and other sectors, payment of national debt (vs Ukraine being subjugated to crippling IMF loan sharking and stripping of its national assets and resources).

Russia today has a large national fund and has accumulated large gold and currency reserves (though about a third are being seized by the EU and US). Ukrainian leaders like Zelensky or Poroshenko have been more interested in their billion dollar fortunes than in reigning in their national debt.

Russia is set to pass Germany as the world's 5th largest economy PPP later this decade. It has turned from a wheat importer in the 1990s to the world's largest wheat exporter, becoming the global market leader, position it used to have early in the 20th century before the Bolshevik Revolution destroyed its farms and economy.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-16/russia-is-exporting-more-wheat-than-any-country-in-25-years

Quote:

---

"When you look at the last two decades, Russia has shown such impressive growth," Stefan Vogel, global sector strategist for grain and oilseeds at Rabobank, told World Grain. "You look at the acreage changes; they've gone up 30% to 50% for many of the grain crops such as wheat and sunflower seed. Production has grown three times more than it was. Wheat production nowadays is 150% above where it was 20 years ago. It's been impressive to see how much this country was able to scale up production."

The first year of the 21st century, Russia exported a modest 696,000 tonnes of wheat. Ten years later, having made tremendous inroads into Asian, Middle East and African markets, Russia increased that total to 18.5 million tonnes. ...In 2012, Russian President Vladimir Putin boldly stated that Russia would double its grain exports by 2020. By 2018, Russia more than doubled that total when it exported a jaw-dropping 41.4 million tonnes of wheat, which still stands as a record

---

https://www.world-grain.com/articles/16273-the-fall-and-rise-of-russian-wheat

Russia made large investments into its infrastructure, ports, railroads, highways and airports. Its airports today are more modern than those in the US. It's also building up its domestic passenger jet industry with homegrown modern engines, set to enter the global market and compete with Boeing and Airbus.

Russia is going to corner other markets like it cornered the wheat market due to the fact that they have the lowest energy costs in the world today, they are going to be able to export their oil and gas indirectly through the production of energy-intensive products like metals (steel, aluminum etc), cement, paper etc., which they are able to produce domestically from raw material extraction to the final product.

Moscow and St Petersburg are first-world cities, modern large metropoles that are cleaner and safer than Paris or London.

Ukraine is the largest and wealthiest country in Europe by far in terms of its natural resources, agricultural potential, energy grid, heavy industries and tech (aerospace). Other than software/IT outsourcing, a small sector that has done relatively well, its economy has been driven into the ground by its corrupt leaders/oligarchs, while most eastern European and former soviet republics (including Russia) have done far better.

---

Even if Ukraine is an economic boogeyman squandering it's natural resources and business potential, it's still not a justification for Russia's invasion of the Ukraine.

---

I asked Cal88 this question earlier in the thread: how does any of this justify Russia invading Ukraine? He didn't answer directly, though given that he's spent most of his time telling us how bad Ukraine is and how great Russia is, I think I know what his opinion is.

---

I've answered this question many times before across this thread, here is a synthesis once again:

-Ukraine has been mistreating its Russian minority, not just taping them to poles in a weird and barbaric nationalist humiation ritual, but outright bombing them in the Donbass since 2014. They've also barbarically repressed Russophones who protested against the Maidan Coup, for instance burning alive and beating to death over 60 unarmed protestors in Odessa in May 2014. Russia intervened on their behalf.

-Ukraine has been beset with a toxic brand of nationalism that recycled WW2 era banderism and views Russians as subhuman archenemies. They have the capacity and will to manufacture nuclear bombs, along with the technology and raw materials, as well as the technology to produce ballistic missiles. In other words, a hostile government that wants to acquire WMDs and is crazy enough to use them, right at Russia's borders.

As to the timing of the Russian invasion, Ukraine massed a large number of troops in the Donbass and was about to overrun the rebel armies of Donetsk and Luhansk, with Crimea being the next target. Ukraine violated numerous times the Minsk II Agreements, and in fact both Poroshenko (who signed the deal as president of Ukraine) and Merkel recently admitted that Minsk II was just a ploy to gain time and have NATO rearm Ukraine to the gills before they push into the Donbass and retake Crimea.

There you have it.
Ukraine is run

---

So you think Russia's invasion is justified and that they should win. Got it.

---

From their perspective, it is justified. I can't condone it, but my analytic side can process the causes and consequences that led to the destruction of Ukraine.

This war was also completely preventable, and could have been stopped early on had Ukraine agreed to these three simple terms:

-give the Donbass the kind of regional autonomy many minorities enjoy in Spain, UK, Canada etc
-recognize Crimea as Russian, as did 85%-90% of Crimeans themselves
-remain neutral, along the lines of Austria or Finland (before it was run by the 30yo disco queen). They could trade freely with the EU like Finland does, but can't have NATO bases or NATO proxy armies.

Those who opposed these terms (Boris, Volodymir, Victoria etc) have blood on their hands.

Russia is not going to stop now, we've passed the point of no return. They are going to grind their way through the country until they get something close to an unconditional surrender. They are winning, and the outcome of the war is no longer in question.

At some point sometime next year, Russia will reach Ukraine's breaking point. That number might be somewhere between a quarter million and a half million Ukrainian soldiers dead. We're somewhere around 125,000-150,000 today.

tequila4kapp said:

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Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

golden sloth said:

---

oski003 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

oski003 said:

---

With that being said, I am not saying that Russia's invasion in Ukraine is justified because they are fighting Nazis. I am saying that Ukraine is an ethnically diverse country and the entire country did not revolt in the Maidan Revolution. It was driven from the West.

---

It was driven by people in Ukraine who would much rather be part of the West than remain within Russia's sphere of influence. No doubt the West encouraged it, but it was mostly coming from within Ukraine.

---

That's fair.

---

I think it is also worth noting that the countries most supportive of Ukraine (the former Soviet bloc countries like Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc.) are all united in fear of Russia. The USA is a far greater power than both Mexico and Canada, but they do not fear the US the same way the former Soviet bloc fears Russia. With exception to Belarus, why do they all choose to turn away from Russia? Is it because they know what life under Russian domination is and they choose the alternative? Why don't they trust Russia?

---

You're conflating Russia with the Soviet Union, which a lot of people in EE also do. Countries like Poland and Ukraine would be better off adopting the old Finnish model of neutrality/independence and maintaining economic relationships with both the EU and Russia, especially Ukraine, which has a large industrial infrastructure that was already set up to supply the Russian market, and was the hub for Russian natural gas. This, along with its soviet era nuclear energy, could have positioned Ukraine as the lowest cost manufacturer in Europe, leader in both labor and energy costs on the continent.

Instead Ukraine has never moved past the post-communist neoliberal oligarch corruption stage. That's the reason it went from the richest, most advanced and industrialized state in the USSR to the poorest, most corrupt country in Europe, with a GDP per capita 3 times lower than Russia's. Its industrial infrastructure has been left to rot, and its huge resources have been sold off to western multinationals by local oligarchs. These multinationals benefit from Ukraine staying in a 3rd world-like economic climate, not unlike many countries in the third world that are being exploited, buying assets for pennies on the dollar.

Quote:

---

Ukraine opens up for Monsanto, land grabs and GMOs

[url=https://theecologist.org/profile/joyce-nelson][/url]Joyce Nelson
11th September 2014

Dying for GMOs? One of 35 members of the neo-nazi Aidar Battalion killed in an ambush by rebels in East Ukraine, 6 September 2014. Photo: Colonel Cassad.

Hidden from mainstream media exposure, the World Bank and IMF loan has opened up Ukraine to major corporate inroads, writes Joyce Nelson. Loan conditions are forcing the deeply indebted country to open up to GMO crops, and lift the ban on private sector land ownership. US corporations are jubilant at the 'goldmine' that awaits them.

---

https://theecologist.org/2014/sep/11/ukraine-opens-monsanto-land-grabs-and-gmos

https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/sites/oaklandinstitute.org/files/Brief_CorporateTakeovero***raine_0.pdf

---

Perhaps your Ukraine economic question is answered in the same post. The most advanced Russian/USSR partner is poorest European country.

You also appear to miss the part where Russia's neighbors choose to keep Russia at arms length either politically or economically precisely because Russia isn't trustworthy, as demonstrated most recently by their actions in Ukraine.

---

Ukraine's economic problems are not a Soviet problem, they're a Ukrainian corruption problem, that country being the most corrupt in Europe, much more so than other former Soviet or eastern block countries.

Kazakhstan, former soviet state, has a higher GDP than Ukraine, with less than half the population. Belarus which is an authoritarian country and also a former Soviet state is also significantly richer than Ukraine.

Ukraine's GDP per capita is below that of El Salvador,, Guatemala and Jamaica, just above that of Egypt and Namibia. Here's a country that started out with one of the best power grids in Europe including some of the largest nuclear powerplants, lots of heavy industry, steel, metals, shipyards and advanced tech like rocket factories and aerospace industry (Antonov, Motorsich etc), and now its economy registers below that of El Salvador...

Ukraine is a very rich country that has been sucked dry of all of its resources and its industry has been left to rot, and that was before any fighting started. Russia was in the same boat in the 1990s, but has since then turned the corner with Putin reigning in his oligarchs and making large infrastructure investments, as well as reforms like the nationalization of all oil and gas and other sectors, payment of national debt (vs Ukraine being subjugated to crippling IMF loan sharking and stripping of its national assets and resources).

Russia today has a large national fund and has accumulated large gold and currency reserves (though about a third are being seized by the EU and US). Ukrainian leaders like Zelensky or Poroshenko have been more interested in their billion dollar fortunes than in reigning in their national debt.

Russia is set to pass Germany as the world's 5th largest economy PPP later this decade. It has turned from a wheat importer in the 1990s to the world's largest wheat exporter, becoming the global market leader, position it used to have early in the 20th century before the Bolshevik Revolution destroyed its farms and economy.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-16/russia-is-exporting-more-wheat-than-any-country-in-25-years

Quote:

---

"When you look at the last two decades, Russia has shown such impressive growth," Stefan Vogel, global sector strategist for grain and oilseeds at Rabobank, told World Grain. "You look at the acreage changes; they've gone up 30% to 50% for many of the grain crops such as wheat and sunflower seed. Production has grown three times more than it was. Wheat production nowadays is 150% above where it was 20 years ago. It's been impressive to see how much this country was able to scale up production."

The first year of the 21st century, Russia exported a modest 696,000 tonnes of wheat. Ten years later, having made tremendous inroads into Asian, Middle East and African markets, Russia increased that total to 18.5 million tonnes. ...In 2012, Russian President Vladimir Putin boldly stated that Russia would double its grain exports by 2020. By 2018, Russia more than doubled that total when it exported a jaw-dropping 41.4 million tonnes of wheat, which still stands as a record

---

https://www.world-grain.com/articles/16273-the-fall-and-rise-of-russian-wheat

Russia made large investments into its infrastructure, ports, railroads, highways and airports. Its airports today are more modern than those in the US. It's also building up its domestic passenger jet industry with homegrown modern engines, set to enter the global market and compete with Boeing and Airbus.

Russia is going to corner other markets like it cornered the wheat market due to the fact that they have the lowest energy costs in the world today, they are going to be able to export their oil and gas indirectly through the production of energy-intensive products like metals (steel, aluminum etc), cement, paper etc., which they are able to produce domestically from raw material extraction to the final product.

Moscow and St Petersburg are first-world cities, modern large metropoles that are cleaner and safer than Paris or London.

Ukraine is the largest and wealthiest country in Europe by far in terms of its natural resources, agricultural potential, energy grid, heavy industries and tech (aerospace). Other than software/IT outsourcing, a small sector that has done relatively well, its economy has been driven into the ground by its corrupt leaders/oligarchs, while most eastern European and former soviet republics (including Russia) have done far better.

---

Even if Ukraine is an economic boogeyman squandering it's natural resources and business potential, it's still not a justification for Russia's invasion of the Ukraine.

---

I asked Cal88 this question earlier in the thread: how does any of this justify Russia invading Ukraine? He didn't answer directly, though given that he's spent most of his time telling us how bad Ukraine is and how great Russia is, I think I know what his opinion is.

---

I've answered this question many times before across this thread, here is a synthesis once again:

-Ukraine has been mistreating its Russian minority, not just taping them to poles in a weird and barbaric nationalist humiation ritual, but outright bombing them in the Donbass since 2014, killing 11,000 civilians. They're still wasting the trickle of American HIMARS and French Cesar munitions to bomb the center Donetsk, city without military value.

They've also barbarically repressed Russophones who protested against the Maidan Coup, for instance burning alive and clubbing to death over 60 unarmed protestors in Odessa in May 2014.




-Ukraine has been beset with a toxic brand of nationalism that recycled WW2 era banderism and views Russians as subhuman archenemies. They have the capacity and will to manufacture nuclear bombs, along with the technology and raw materials, as well as the technology to produce ballistic missiles. In other words, a hostile government that wants to acquire WMDs and is crazy enough to use them, right at Russia's borders.

As to the timing of the Russian invasion, Ukraine massed a large number of troops in the Donbass in January and was about to overrun the rebel armies of Donetsk and Luhansk, with Crimea being the next target.

Ukraine has violated numerous times the Minsk II Agreements, and in fact both Poroshenko (who had signed the deal as president of Ukraine) and Merkel both recently admitted that Minsk II was just a ploy to gain time and have NATO rearm Ukraine to the gills before they push into the Donbass and retake Crimea.

Those are the main reasons Russia invaded Ukraine.

---

So, at some point in the future if Mexico decrees that America is depriving Mexicans certain rights and/or abusing them then Mexico has the right to arm an uprising, undermine the US government, invade the US and Texas should be an independent entity? And if the US were to militarily resist that uprising the narrative would be the US is abusing people's human rights?

---

If you want a more realistic precedent, consider the Cuban Missile Crisis. Nukes near the US border by a hostile power = automatic invasion. Back then, you had responsible leaders like Kennedy handling this, they were good enough to stave off a dangerous conflagration.

sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

---

I'm not going to condone the massacre of hundreds of thousands, only a sociopath would.

I think a key motivation about my posts is that if people understood why this war has started and escalated, it wouldn't have happened, and it might even have stopped. Probably pretty naive on my part, most people are driven by narratives, not facts.

---

No one is more driven by a narrative than you. It's just that you're driven by Russia's narrative and most of us are not.

---

The important thing here, if you take out the jingoism, is which narrative is closer to the truth. We're in a fog of war situation, and in a subject that has become emotionally charged. Facts will eventually catch up.

Cal88 said:

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tequila4kapp said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

golden sloth said:

---

oski003 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

oski003 said:

---

With that being said, I am not saying that Russia's invasion in Ukraine is justified because they are fighting Nazis. I am saying that Ukraine is an ethnically diverse country and the entire country did not revolt in the Maidan Revolution. It was driven from the West.

---

It was driven by people in Ukraine who would much rather be part of the West than remain within Russia's sphere of influence. No doubt the West encouraged it, but it was mostly coming from within Ukraine.

---

That's fair.

---

I think it is also worth noting that the countries most supportive of Ukraine (the former Soviet bloc countries like Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc.) are all united in fear of Russia. The USA is a far greater power than both Mexico and Canada, but they do not fear the US the same way the former Soviet bloc fears Russia. With exception to Belarus, why do they all choose to turn away from Russia? Is it because they know what life under Russian domination is and they choose the alternative? Why don't they trust Russia?

---

You're conflating Russia with the Soviet Union, which a lot of people in EE also do. Countries like Poland and Ukraine would be better off adopting the old Finnish model of neutrality/independence and maintaining economic relationships with both the EU and Russia, especially Ukraine, which has a large industrial infrastructure that was already set up to supply the Russian market, and was the hub for Russian natural gas. This, along with its soviet era nuclear energy, could have positioned Ukraine as the lowest cost manufacturer in Europe, leader in both labor and energy costs on the continent.

Instead Ukraine has never moved past the post-communist neoliberal oligarch corruption stage. That's the reason it went from the richest, most advanced and industrialized state in the USSR to the poorest, most corrupt country in Europe, with a GDP per capita 3 times lower than Russia's. Its industrial infrastructure has been left to rot, and its huge resources have been sold off to western multinationals by local oligarchs. These multinationals benefit from Ukraine staying in a 3rd world-like economic climate, not unlike many countries in the third world that are being exploited, buying assets for pennies on the dollar.

Quote:

---

Ukraine opens up for Monsanto, land grabs and GMOs

[url=https://theecologist.org/profile/joyce-nelson][/url]Joyce Nelson
11th September 2014

Dying for GMOs? One of 35 members of the neo-nazi Aidar Battalion killed in an ambush by rebels in East Ukraine, 6 September 2014. Photo: Colonel Cassad.

Hidden from mainstream media exposure, the World Bank and IMF loan has opened up Ukraine to major corporate inroads, writes Joyce Nelson. Loan conditions are forcing the deeply indebted country to open up to GMO crops, and lift the ban on private sector land ownership. US corporations are jubilant at the 'goldmine' that awaits them.

---

https://theecologist.org/2014/sep/11/ukraine-opens-monsanto-land-grabs-and-gmos

https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/sites/oaklandinstitute.org/files/Brief_CorporateTakeovero***raine_0.pdf

---

Perhaps your Ukraine economic question is answered in the same post. The most advanced Russian/USSR partner is poorest European country.

You also appear to miss the part where Russia's neighbors choose to keep Russia at arms length either politically or economically precisely because Russia isn't trustworthy, as demonstrated most recently by their actions in Ukraine.

---

Ukraine's economic problems are not a Soviet problem, they're a Ukrainian corruption problem, that country being the most corrupt in Europe, much more so than other former Soviet or eastern block countries.

Kazakhstan, former soviet state, has a higher GDP than Ukraine, with less than half the population. Belarus which is an authoritarian country and also a former Soviet state is also significantly richer than Ukraine.

Ukraine's GDP per capita is below that of El Salvador,, Guatemala and Jamaica, just above that of Egypt and Namibia. Here's a country that started out with one of the best power grids in Europe including some of the largest nuclear powerplants, lots of heavy industry, steel, metals, shipyards and advanced tech like rocket factories and aerospace industry (Antonov, Motorsich etc), and now its economy registers below that of El Salvador...

Ukraine is a very rich country that has been sucked dry of all of its resources and its industry has been left to rot, and that was before any fighting started. Russia was in the same boat in the 1990s, but has since then turned the corner with Putin reigning in his oligarchs and making large infrastructure investments, as well as reforms like the nationalization of all oil and gas and other sectors, payment of national debt (vs Ukraine being subjugated to crippling IMF loan sharking and stripping of its national assets and resources).

Russia today has a large national fund and has accumulated large gold and currency reserves (though about a third are being seized by the EU and US). Ukrainian leaders like Zelensky or Poroshenko have been more interested in their billion dollar fortunes than in reigning in their national debt.

Russia is set to pass Germany as the world's 5th largest economy PPP later this decade. It has turned from a wheat importer in the 1990s to the world's largest wheat exporter, becoming the global market leader, position it used to have early in the 20th century before the Bolshevik Revolution destroyed its farms and economy.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-16/russia-is-exporting-more-wheat-than-any-country-in-25-years

Quote:

---

"When you look at the last two decades, Russia has shown such impressive growth," Stefan Vogel, global sector strategist for grain and oilseeds at Rabobank, told World Grain. "You look at the acreage changes; they've gone up 30% to 50% for many of the grain crops such as wheat and sunflower seed. Production has grown three times more than it was. Wheat production nowadays is 150% above where it was 20 years ago. It's been impressive to see how much this country was able to scale up production."

The first year of the 21st century, Russia exported a modest 696,000 tonnes of wheat. Ten years later, having made tremendous inroads into Asian, Middle East and African markets, Russia increased that total to 18.5 million tonnes. ...In 2012, Russian President Vladimir Putin boldly stated that Russia would double its grain exports by 2020. By 2018, Russia more than doubled that total when it exported a jaw-dropping 41.4 million tonnes of wheat, which still stands as a record

---

https://www.world-grain.com/articles/16273-the-fall-and-rise-of-russian-wheat

Russia made large investments into its infrastructure, ports, railroads, highways and airports. Its airports today are more modern than those in the US. It's also building up its domestic passenger jet industry with homegrown modern engines, set to enter the global market and compete with Boeing and Airbus.

Russia is going to corner other markets like it cornered the wheat market due to the fact that they have the lowest energy costs in the world today, they are going to be able to export their oil and gas indirectly through the production of energy-intensive products like metals (steel, aluminum etc), cement, paper etc., which they are able to produce domestically from raw material extraction to the final product.

Moscow and St Petersburg are first-world cities, modern large metropoles that are cleaner and safer than Paris or London.

Ukraine is the largest and wealthiest country in Europe by far in terms of its natural resources, agricultural potential, energy grid, heavy industries and tech (aerospace). Other than software/IT outsourcing, a small sector that has done relatively well, its economy has been driven into the ground by its corrupt leaders/oligarchs, while most eastern European and former soviet republics (including Russia) have done far better.

---

Even if Ukraine is an economic boogeyman squandering it's natural resources and business potential, it's still not a justification for Russia's invasion of the Ukraine.

---

I asked Cal88 this question earlier in the thread: how does any of this justify Russia invading Ukraine? He didn't answer directly, though given that he's spent most of his time telling us how bad Ukraine is and how great Russia is, I think I know what his opinion is.

---

I've answered this question many times before across this thread, here is a synthesis once again:

-Ukraine has been mistreating its Russian minority, not just taping them to poles in a weird and barbaric nationalist humiation ritual, but outright bombing them in the Donbass since 2014, killing 11,000 civilians. They're still wasting the trickle of American HIMARS and French Cesar munitions to bomb the center Donetsk, city without military value.

They've also barbarically repressed Russophones who protested against the Maidan Coup, for instance burning alive and clubbing to death over 60 unarmed protestors in Odessa in May 2014.




-Ukraine has been beset with a toxic brand of nationalism that recycled WW2 era banderism and views Russians as subhuman archenemies. They have the capacity and will to manufacture nuclear bombs, along with the technology and raw materials, as well as the technology to produce ballistic missiles. In other words, a hostile government that wants to acquire WMDs and is crazy enough to use them, right at Russia's borders.

As to the timing of the Russian invasion, Ukraine massed a large number of troops in the Donbass in January and was about to overrun the rebel armies of Donetsk and Luhansk, with Crimea being the next target.

Ukraine has violated numerous times the Minsk II Agreements, and in fact both Poroshenko (who had signed the deal as president of Ukraine) and Merkel both recently admitted that Minsk II was just a ploy to gain time and have NATO rearm Ukraine to the gills before they push into the Donbass and retake Crimea.

Those are the main reasons Russia invaded Ukraine.

---

So, at some point in the future if Mexico decrees that America is depriving Mexicans certain rights and/or abusing them then Mexico has the right to arm an uprising, undermine the US government, invade the US and Texas should be an independent entity? And if the US were to militarily resist that uprising the narrative would be the US is abusing people's human rights?

---

If you want a more realistic precedent, consider the Cuban Missile Crisis. Nukes near the US border by a hostile power = automatic invasion. Back then, you had responsible leaders like Kennedy handling this, they were good enough to stave off a dangerous conflagration.

---

Yes, and that invasion is now widely regarded as a mistake. Same as Russia's invasion of Ukraine, only at least the US didn't devote nearly as many resources to Cuba.

sycasey said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

I'm not going to condone the massacre of hundreds of thousands, only a sociopath would.

I think a key motivation about my posts is that if people understood why this war has started and escalated, it wouldn't have happened, and it might even have stopped. Probably pretty naive on my part, most people are driven by narratives, not facts.

---

No one is more driven by a narrative than you. It's just that you're driven by Russia's narrative and most of us are not.

---

The important thing here, if you take out the jingoism, is which narrative is closer to the truth. We're in a fog of war situation, and in a subject that has become emotionally charged. Facts will eventually catch up.

---

So far, the Western media's narrative has proven to be closer to the truth than yours. First, that Russia was preparing to attack even though you guys said Putin was a rational actor and wouldn't do it. Then that Russia's attack was going poorly and their resources were running out, followed by Ukraine rapidly winning back territory, up to the current state of play.

So I'll wait for you to actually be right about something before I start trusting your narrative. I suspect I'll be waiting a while.

---

Putin is a rational actor, he tends to be very risk averse. He's a calculating lawyer/analyst/bureaucrat by nature and training. The timing of his intervention was tied with Ukraine mobilizing its troops and preparing to mount a major offensive that would have swept though the Donbass and targeted Crimea.

Russia is winning the attrition war, they have escalatory dominance, and far deeper resources. They are producing the equivalent of the entire ammunition inventory of France, the UK, Germany and Italy combined in one week.

I will provide information on the current state of the war and future prospects that I came across (some from NATO's side) later this week.

sycasey said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

golden sloth said:

---

oski003 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

oski003 said:

---

With that being said, I am not saying that Russia's invasion in Ukraine is justified because they are fighting Nazis. I am saying that Ukraine is an ethnically diverse country and the entire country did not revolt in the Maidan Revolution. It was driven from the West.

---

It was driven by people in Ukraine who would much rather be part of the West than remain within Russia's sphere of influence. No doubt the West encouraged it, but it was mostly coming from within Ukraine.

---

That's fair.

---

I think it is also worth noting that the countries most supportive of Ukraine (the former Soviet bloc countries like Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc.) are all united in fear of Russia. The USA is a far greater power than both Mexico and Canada, but they do not fear the US the same way the former Soviet bloc fears Russia. With exception to Belarus, why do they all choose to turn away from Russia? Is it because they know what life under Russian domination is and they choose the alternative? Why don't they trust Russia?

---

You're conflating Russia with the Soviet Union, which a lot of people in EE also do. Countries like Poland and Ukraine would be better off adopting the old Finnish model of neutrality/independence and maintaining economic relationships with both the EU and Russia, especially Ukraine, which has a large industrial infrastructure that was already set up to supply the Russian market, and was the hub for Russian natural gas. This, along with its soviet era nuclear energy, could have positioned Ukraine as the lowest cost manufacturer in Europe, leader in both labor and energy costs on the continent.

Instead Ukraine has never moved past the post-communist neoliberal oligarch corruption stage. That's the reason it went from the richest, most advanced and industrialized state in the USSR to the poorest, most corrupt country in Europe, with a GDP per capita 3 times lower than Russia's. Its industrial infrastructure has been left to rot, and its huge resources have been sold off to western multinationals by local oligarchs. These multinationals benefit from Ukraine staying in a 3rd world-like economic climate, not unlike many countries in the third world that are being exploited, buying assets for pennies on the dollar.

Quote:

---

Ukraine opens up for Monsanto, land grabs and GMOs

[url=https://theecologist.org/profile/joyce-nelson][/url]Joyce Nelson
11th September 2014

Dying for GMOs? One of 35 members of the neo-nazi Aidar Battalion killed in an ambush by rebels in East Ukraine, 6 September 2014. Photo: Colonel Cassad.

Hidden from mainstream media exposure, the World Bank and IMF loan has opened up Ukraine to major corporate inroads, writes Joyce Nelson. Loan conditions are forcing the deeply indebted country to open up to GMO crops, and lift the ban on private sector land ownership. US corporations are jubilant at the 'goldmine' that awaits them.

---

https://theecologist.org/2014/sep/11/ukraine-opens-monsanto-land-grabs-and-gmos

https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/sites/oaklandinstitute.org/files/Brief_CorporateTakeovero***raine_0.pdf

---

Perhaps your Ukraine economic question is answered in the same post. The most advanced Russian/USSR partner is poorest European country.

You also appear to miss the part where Russia's neighbors choose to keep Russia at arms length either politically or economically precisely because Russia isn't trustworthy, as demonstrated most recently by their actions in Ukraine.

---

Ukraine's economic problems are not a Soviet problem, they're a Ukrainian corruption problem, that country being the most corrupt in Europe, much more so than other former Soviet or eastern block countries.

Kazakhstan, former soviet state, has a higher GDP than Ukraine, with less than half the population. Belarus which is an authoritarian country and also a former Soviet state is also significantly richer than Ukraine.

Ukraine's GDP per capita is below that of El Salvador,, Guatemala and Jamaica, just above that of Egypt and Namibia. Here's a country that started out with one of the best power grids in Europe including some of the largest nuclear powerplants, lots of heavy industry, steel, metals, shipyards and advanced tech like rocket factories and aerospace industry (Antonov, Motorsich etc), and now its economy registers below that of El Salvador...

Ukraine is a very rich country that has been sucked dry of all of its resources and its industry has been left to rot, and that was before any fighting started. Russia was in the same boat in the 1990s, but has since then turned the corner with Putin reigning in his oligarchs and making large infrastructure investments, as well as reforms like the nationalization of all oil and gas and other sectors, payment of national debt (vs Ukraine being subjugated to crippling IMF loan sharking and stripping of its national assets and resources).

Russia today has a large national fund and has accumulated large gold and currency reserves (though about a third are being seized by the EU and US). Ukrainian leaders like Zelensky or Poroshenko have been more interested in their billion dollar fortunes than in reigning in their national debt.

Russia is set to pass Germany as the world's 5th largest economy PPP later this decade. It has turned from a wheat importer in the 1990s to the world's largest wheat exporter, becoming the global market leader, position it used to have early in the 20th century before the Bolshevik Revolution destroyed its farms and economy.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-16/russia-is-exporting-more-wheat-than-any-country-in-25-years

Quote:

---

"When you look at the last two decades, Russia has shown such impressive growth," Stefan Vogel, global sector strategist for grain and oilseeds at Rabobank, told World Grain. "You look at the acreage changes; they've gone up 30% to 50% for many of the grain crops such as wheat and sunflower seed. Production has grown three times more than it was. Wheat production nowadays is 150% above where it was 20 years ago. It's been impressive to see how much this country was able to scale up production."

The first year of the 21st century, Russia exported a modest 696,000 tonnes of wheat. Ten years later, having made tremendous inroads into Asian, Middle East and African markets, Russia increased that total to 18.5 million tonnes. ...In 2012, Russian President Vladimir Putin boldly stated that Russia would double its grain exports by 2020. By 2018, Russia more than doubled that total when it exported a jaw-dropping 41.4 million tonnes of wheat, which still stands as a record

---

https://www.world-grain.com/articles/16273-the-fall-and-rise-of-russian-wheat

Russia made large investments into its infrastructure, ports, railroads, highways and airports. Its airports today are more modern than those in the US. It's also building up its domestic passenger jet industry with homegrown modern engines, set to enter the global market and compete with Boeing and Airbus.

Russia is going to corner other markets like it cornered the wheat market due to the fact that they have the lowest energy costs in the world today, they are going to be able to export their oil and gas indirectly through the production of energy-intensive products like metals (steel, aluminum etc), cement, paper etc., which they are able to produce domestically from raw material extraction to the final product.

Moscow and St Petersburg are first-world cities, modern large metropoles that are cleaner and safer than Paris or London.

Ukraine is the largest and wealthiest country in Europe by far in terms of its natural resources, agricultural potential, energy grid, heavy industries and tech (aerospace). Other than software/IT outsourcing, a small sector that has done relatively well, its economy has been driven into the ground by its corrupt leaders/oligarchs, while most eastern European and former soviet republics (including Russia) have done far better.

---

Even if Ukraine is an economic boogeyman squandering it's natural resources and business potential, it's still not a justification for Russia's invasion of the Ukraine.

---

I asked Cal88 this question earlier in the thread: how does any of this justify Russia invading Ukraine? He didn't answer directly, though given that he's spent most of his time telling us how bad Ukraine is and how great Russia is, I think I know what his opinion is.

---

I've answered this question many times before across this thread, here is a synthesis once again:

-Ukraine has been mistreating its Russian minority, not just taping them to poles in a weird and barbaric nationalist humiation ritual, but outright bombing them in the Donbass since 2014, killing 11,000 civilians. They're still wasting the trickle of American HIMARS and French Cesar munitions to bomb the center Donetsk, city without military value.

They've also barbarically repressed Russophones who protested against the Maidan Coup, for instance burning alive and clubbing to death over 60 unarmed protestors in Odessa in May 2014.




-Ukraine has been beset with a toxic brand of nationalism that recycled WW2 era banderism and views Russians as subhuman archenemies. They have the capacity and will to manufacture nuclear bombs, along with the technology and raw materials, as well as the technology to produce ballistic missiles. In other words, a hostile government that wants to acquire WMDs and is crazy enough to use them, right at Russia's borders.

As to the timing of the Russian invasion, Ukraine massed a large number of troops in the Donbass in January and was about to overrun the rebel armies of Donetsk and Luhansk, with Crimea being the next target.

Ukraine has violated numerous times the Minsk II Agreements, and in fact both Poroshenko (who had signed the deal as president of Ukraine) and Merkel both recently admitted that Minsk II was just a ploy to gain time and have NATO rearm Ukraine to the gills before they push into the Donbass and retake Crimea.

Those are the main reasons Russia invaded Ukraine.

---

So, at some point in the future if Mexico decrees that America is depriving Mexicans certain rights and/or abusing them then Mexico has the right to arm an uprising, undermine the US government, invade the US and Texas should be an independent entity? And if the US were to militarily resist that uprising the narrative would be the US is abusing people's human rights?

---

If you want a more realistic precedent, consider the Cuban Missile Crisis. Nukes near the US border by a hostile power = automatic invasion. Back then, you had responsible leaders like Kennedy handling this, they were good enough to stave off a dangerous conflagration.

---

Yes, and that invasion is now widely regarded as a mistake. Same as Russia's invasion of Ukraine, only at least the US didn't devote nearly as many resources to Cuba.

---

You're confusing the Bay of Pigs fiasco with the Cuban Missile Crisis.

tequila4kapp said:

---

So, at some point in the future if Mexico decrees that America is depriving Mexicans certain rights and/or abusing them then Mexico has the right to arm an uprising, undermine the US government, invade the US and Texas should be an independent entity? And if the US were to militarily resist that uprising the narrative would be the US is abusing people's human rights?

---

Nice try buddy but you've got it completely wrong. Mexico also has to claim that it's invading because of corruption (that it caused), and in order to rid the US of nazis (even though Mexico has more nazis) and woke people. Then Mexico has to claim Texas as its own, run fake referendums and after getting smoked in numerous battles pretend like it would be happy to sign a peace treaty giving it Texas and completely ignoring all of the other pretexts that it mentioned as triggers for its "special military operation." And we will never be allowed to discuss the fact that Mexico paid Paul Manafort to help its puppet, Donald Trump, win the 2016 election even though the will of the people by popular vote was for a different candidate.

Finally, Mexico has to call up a bunch of old men to serve as drone fodder and pretend that it's able to support them logistically even though it doesn't even have bandaids for medical kits and has no intention of feeding them or supporting them. We all have to pretend like there is no such thing as a Potemkin Village and that everything being done by Mexico is in good faith even when all evidence points to the contrary.

Oh and Mexico would have to promote a ridiculous conspiracy theory that our president is richer than Jerry Seinfeld even though all evidence points to the fact that he earned his income and wealth (which is less than some movie stars make on 1 movie) honestly as an entertainer and Mexico's leader is probably the wealthiest kleptocrat in the world who has stolen somewhere between multiple billions and hundreds of billions from his people.

That would be closer to the narrative that the Kremlin wants dumb people to believe.

Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

golden sloth said:

---

oski003 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

oski003 said:

---

With that being said, I am not saying that Russia's invasion in Ukraine is justified because they are fighting Nazis. I am saying that Ukraine is an ethnically diverse country and the entire country did not revolt in the Maidan Revolution. It was driven from the West.

---

It was driven by people in Ukraine who would much rather be part of the West than remain within Russia's sphere of influence. No doubt the West encouraged it, but it was mostly coming from within Ukraine.

---

That's fair.

---

I think it is also worth noting that the countries most supportive of Ukraine (the former Soviet bloc countries like Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc.) are all united in fear of Russia. The USA is a far greater power than both Mexico and Canada, but they do not fear the US the same way the former Soviet bloc fears Russia. With exception to Belarus, why do they all choose to turn away from Russia? Is it because they know what life under Russian domination is and they choose the alternative? Why don't they trust Russia?

---

You're conflating Russia with the Soviet Union, which a lot of people in EE also do. Countries like Poland and Ukraine would be better off adopting the old Finnish model of neutrality/independence and maintaining economic relationships with both the EU and Russia, especially Ukraine, which has a large industrial infrastructure that was already set up to supply the Russian market, and was the hub for Russian natural gas. This, along with its soviet era nuclear energy, could have positioned Ukraine as the lowest cost manufacturer in Europe, leader in both labor and energy costs on the continent.

Instead Ukraine has never moved past the post-communist neoliberal oligarch corruption stage. That's the reason it went from the richest, most advanced and industrialized state in the USSR to the poorest, most corrupt country in Europe, with a GDP per capita 3 times lower than Russia's. Its industrial infrastructure has been left to rot, and its huge resources have been sold off to western multinationals by local oligarchs. These multinationals benefit from Ukraine staying in a 3rd world-like economic climate, not unlike many countries in the third world that are being exploited, buying assets for pennies on the dollar.

Quote:

---

Ukraine opens up for Monsanto, land grabs and GMOs

[url=https://theecologist.org/profile/joyce-nelson][/url]Joyce Nelson
11th September 2014

Dying for GMOs? One of 35 members of the neo-nazi Aidar Battalion killed in an ambush by rebels in East Ukraine, 6 September 2014. Photo: Colonel Cassad.

Hidden from mainstream media exposure, the World Bank and IMF loan has opened up Ukraine to major corporate inroads, writes Joyce Nelson. Loan conditions are forcing the deeply indebted country to open up to GMO crops, and lift the ban on private sector land ownership. US corporations are jubilant at the 'goldmine' that awaits them.

---

https://theecologist.org/2014/sep/11/ukraine-opens-monsanto-land-grabs-and-gmos

https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/sites/oaklandinstitute.org/files/Brief_CorporateTakeovero***raine_0.pdf

---

Perhaps your Ukraine economic question is answered in the same post. The most advanced Russian/USSR partner is poorest European country.

You also appear to miss the part where Russia's neighbors choose to keep Russia at arms length either politically or economically precisely because Russia isn't trustworthy, as demonstrated most recently by their actions in Ukraine.

---

Ukraine's economic problems are not a Soviet problem, they're a Ukrainian corruption problem, that country being the most corrupt in Europe, much more so than other former Soviet or eastern block countries.

Kazakhstan, former soviet state, has a higher GDP than Ukraine, with less than half the population. Belarus which is an authoritarian country and also a former Soviet state is also significantly richer than Ukraine.

Ukraine's GDP per capita is below that of El Salvador,, Guatemala and Jamaica, just above that of Egypt and Namibia. Here's a country that started out with one of the best power grids in Europe including some of the largest nuclear powerplants, lots of heavy industry, steel, metals, shipyards and advanced tech like rocket factories and aerospace industry (Antonov, Motorsich etc), and now its economy registers below that of El Salvador...

Ukraine is a very rich country that has been sucked dry of all of its resources and its industry has been left to rot, and that was before any fighting started. Russia was in the same boat in the 1990s, but has since then turned the corner with Putin reigning in his oligarchs and making large infrastructure investments, as well as reforms like the nationalization of all oil and gas and other sectors, payment of national debt (vs Ukraine being subjugated to crippling IMF loan sharking and stripping of its national assets and resources).

Russia today has a large national fund and has accumulated large gold and currency reserves (though about a third are being seized by the EU and US). Ukrainian leaders like Zelensky or Poroshenko have been more interested in their billion dollar fortunes than in reigning in their national debt.

Russia is set to pass Germany as the world's 5th largest economy PPP later this decade. It has turned from a wheat importer in the 1990s to the world's largest wheat exporter, becoming the global market leader, position it used to have early in the 20th century before the Bolshevik Revolution destroyed its farms and economy.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-16/russia-is-exporting-more-wheat-than-any-country-in-25-years

Quote:

---

"When you look at the last two decades, Russia has shown such impressive growth," Stefan Vogel, global sector strategist for grain and oilseeds at Rabobank, told World Grain. "You look at the acreage changes; they've gone up 30% to 50% for many of the grain crops such as wheat and sunflower seed. Production has grown three times more than it was. Wheat production nowadays is 150% above where it was 20 years ago. It's been impressive to see how much this country was able to scale up production."

The first year of the 21st century, Russia exported a modest 696,000 tonnes of wheat. Ten years later, having made tremendous inroads into Asian, Middle East and African markets, Russia increased that total to 18.5 million tonnes. ...In 2012, Russian President Vladimir Putin boldly stated that Russia would double its grain exports by 2020. By 2018, Russia more than doubled that total when it exported a jaw-dropping 41.4 million tonnes of wheat, which still stands as a record

---

https://www.world-grain.com/articles/16273-the-fall-and-rise-of-russian-wheat

Russia made large investments into its infrastructure, ports, railroads, highways and airports. Its airports today are more modern than those in the US. It's also building up its domestic passenger jet industry with homegrown modern engines, set to enter the global market and compete with Boeing and Airbus.

Russia is going to corner other markets like it cornered the wheat market due to the fact that they have the lowest energy costs in the world today, they are going to be able to export their oil and gas indirectly through the production of energy-intensive products like metals (steel, aluminum etc), cement, paper etc., which they are able to produce domestically from raw material extraction to the final product.

Moscow and St Petersburg are first-world cities, modern large metropoles that are cleaner and safer than Paris or London.

Ukraine is the largest and wealthiest country in Europe by far in terms of its natural resources, agricultural potential, energy grid, heavy industries and tech (aerospace). Other than software/IT outsourcing, a small sector that has done relatively well, its economy has been driven into the ground by its corrupt leaders/oligarchs, while most eastern European and former soviet republics (including Russia) have done far better.

---

Even if Ukraine is an economic boogeyman squandering it's natural resources and business potential, it's still not a justification for Russia's invasion of the Ukraine.

---

I asked Cal88 this question earlier in the thread: how does any of this justify Russia invading Ukraine? He didn't answer directly, though given that he's spent most of his time telling us how bad Ukraine is and how great Russia is, I think I know what his opinion is.

---

I've answered this question many times before across this thread, here is a synthesis once again:

-Ukraine has been mistreating its Russian minority, not just taping them to poles in a weird and barbaric nationalist humiation ritual, but outright bombing them in the Donbass since 2014, killing 11,000 civilians. They're still wasting the trickle of American HIMARS and French Cesar munitions to bomb the center Donetsk, city without military value.

They've also barbarically repressed Russophones who protested against the Maidan Coup, for instance burning alive and clubbing to death over 60 unarmed protestors in Odessa in May 2014.




-Ukraine has been beset with a toxic brand of nationalism that recycled WW2 era banderism and views Russians as subhuman archenemies. They have the capacity and will to manufacture nuclear bombs, along with the technology and raw materials, as well as the technology to produce ballistic missiles. In other words, a hostile government that wants to acquire WMDs and is crazy enough to use them, right at Russia's borders.

As to the timing of the Russian invasion, Ukraine massed a large number of troops in the Donbass in January and was about to overrun the rebel armies of Donetsk and Luhansk, with Crimea being the next target.

Ukraine has violated numerous times the Minsk II Agreements, and in fact both Poroshenko (who had signed the deal as president of Ukraine) and Merkel both recently admitted that Minsk II was just a ploy to gain time and have NATO rearm Ukraine to the gills before they push into the Donbass and retake Crimea.

Those are the main reasons Russia invaded Ukraine.

---

So, at some point in the future if Mexico decrees that America is depriving Mexicans certain rights and/or abusing them then Mexico has the right to arm an uprising, undermine the US government, invade the US and Texas should be an independent entity? And if the US were to militarily resist that uprising the narrative would be the US is abusing people's human rights?

---

If you want a more realistic precedent, consider the Cuban Missile Crisis. Nukes near the US border by a hostile power = automatic invasion. Back then, you had responsible leaders like Kennedy handling this, they were good enough to stave off a dangerous conflagration.

---

Yes, and that invasion is now widely regarded as a mistake. Same as Russia's invasion of Ukraine, only at least the US didn't devote nearly as many resources to Cuba.

---

You're confusing the Bay of Pigs fiasco with the Cuban Missile Crisis.

---

What? Bay of Pigs was part of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Was there another US invasion of Cuba besides Bay of Pigs?

sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

Cal88 said:

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golden sloth said:

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oski003 said:

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sycasey said:

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oski003 said:

---

With that being said, I am not saying that Russia's invasion in Ukraine is justified because they are fighting Nazis. I am saying that Ukraine is an ethnically diverse country and the entire country did not revolt in the Maidan Revolution. It was driven from the West.

---

It was driven by people in Ukraine who would much rather be part of the West than remain within Russia's sphere of influence. No doubt the West encouraged it, but it was mostly coming from within Ukraine.

---

That's fair.

---

I think it is also worth noting that the countries most supportive of Ukraine (the former Soviet bloc countries like Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc.) are all united in fear of Russia. The USA is a far greater power than both Mexico and Canada, but they do not fear the US the same way the former Soviet bloc fears Russia. With exception to Belarus, why do they all choose to turn away from Russia? Is it because they know what life under Russian domination is and they choose the alternative? Why don't they trust Russia?

---

You're conflating Russia with the Soviet Union, which a lot of people in EE also do. Countries like Poland and Ukraine would be better off adopting the old Finnish model of neutrality/independence and maintaining economic relationships with both the EU and Russia, especially Ukraine, which has a large industrial infrastructure that was already set up to supply the Russian market, and was the hub for Russian natural gas. This, along with its soviet era nuclear energy, could have positioned Ukraine as the lowest cost manufacturer in Europe, leader in both labor and energy costs on the continent.

Instead Ukraine has never moved past the post-communist neoliberal oligarch corruption stage. That's the reason it went from the richest, most advanced and industrialized state in the USSR to the poorest, most corrupt country in Europe, with a GDP per capita 3 times lower than Russia's. Its industrial infrastructure has been left to rot, and its huge resources have been sold off to western multinationals by local oligarchs. These multinationals benefit from Ukraine staying in a 3rd world-like economic climate, not unlike many countries in the third world that are being exploited, buying assets for pennies on the dollar.

Quote:

---

Ukraine opens up for Monsanto, land grabs and GMOs

[url=https://theecologist.org/profile/joyce-nelson][/url]Joyce Nelson
11th September 2014

Dying for GMOs? One of 35 members of the neo-nazi Aidar Battalion killed in an ambush by rebels in East Ukraine, 6 September 2014. Photo: Colonel Cassad.

Hidden from mainstream media exposure, the World Bank and IMF loan has opened up Ukraine to major corporate inroads, writes Joyce Nelson. Loan conditions are forcing the deeply indebted country to open up to GMO crops, and lift the ban on private sector land ownership. US corporations are jubilant at the 'goldmine' that awaits them.

---

https://theecologist.org/2014/sep/11/ukraine-opens-monsanto-land-grabs-and-gmos

https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/sites/oaklandinstitute.org/files/Brief_CorporateTakeovero***raine_0.pdf

---

Perhaps your Ukraine economic question is answered in the same post. The most advanced Russian/USSR partner is poorest European country.

You also appear to miss the part where Russia's neighbors choose to keep Russia at arms length either politically or economically precisely because Russia isn't trustworthy, as demonstrated most recently by their actions in Ukraine.

---

Ukraine's economic problems are not a Soviet problem, they're a Ukrainian corruption problem, that country being the most corrupt in Europe, much more so than other former Soviet or eastern block countries.

Kazakhstan, former soviet state, has a higher GDP than Ukraine, with less than half the population. Belarus which is an authoritarian country and also a former Soviet state is also significantly richer than Ukraine.

Ukraine's GDP per capita is below that of El Salvador,, Guatemala and Jamaica, just above that of Egypt and Namibia. Here's a country that started out with one of the best power grids in Europe including some of the largest nuclear powerplants, lots of heavy industry, steel, metals, shipyards and advanced tech like rocket factories and aerospace industry (Antonov, Motorsich etc), and now its economy registers below that of El Salvador...

Ukraine is a very rich country that has been sucked dry of all of its resources and its industry has been left to rot, and that was before any fighting started. Russia was in the same boat in the 1990s, but has since then turned the corner with Putin reigning in his oligarchs and making large infrastructure investments, as well as reforms like the nationalization of all oil and gas and other sectors, payment of national debt (vs Ukraine being subjugated to crippling IMF loan sharking and stripping of its national assets and resources).

Russia today has a large national fund and has accumulated large gold and currency reserves (though about a third are being seized by the EU and US). Ukrainian leaders like Zelensky or Poroshenko have been more interested in their billion dollar fortunes than in reigning in their national debt.

Russia is set to pass Germany as the world's 5th largest economy PPP later this decade. It has turned from a wheat importer in the 1990s to the world's largest wheat exporter, becoming the global market leader, position it used to have early in the 20th century before the Bolshevik Revolution destroyed its farms and economy.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-16/russia-is-exporting-more-wheat-than-any-country-in-25-years

Quote:

---

"When you look at the last two decades, Russia has shown such impressive growth," Stefan Vogel, global sector strategist for grain and oilseeds at Rabobank, told World Grain. "You look at the acreage changes; they've gone up 30% to 50% for many of the grain crops such as wheat and sunflower seed. Production has grown three times more than it was. Wheat production nowadays is 150% above where it was 20 years ago. It's been impressive to see how much this country was able to scale up production."

The first year of the 21st century, Russia exported a modest 696,000 tonnes of wheat. Ten years later, having made tremendous inroads into Asian, Middle East and African markets, Russia increased that total to 18.5 million tonnes. ...In 2012, Russian President Vladimir Putin boldly stated that Russia would double its grain exports by 2020. By 2018, Russia more than doubled that total when it exported a jaw-dropping 41.4 million tonnes of wheat, which still stands as a record

---

https://www.world-grain.com/articles/16273-the-fall-and-rise-of-russian-wheat

Russia made large investments into its infrastructure, ports, railroads, highways and airports. Its airports today are more modern than those in the US. It's also building up its domestic passenger jet industry with homegrown modern engines, set to enter the global market and compete with Boeing and Airbus.

Russia is going to corner other markets like it cornered the wheat market due to the fact that they have the lowest energy costs in the world today, they are going to be able to export their oil and gas indirectly through the production of energy-intensive products like metals (steel, aluminum etc), cement, paper etc., which they are able to produce domestically from raw material extraction to the final product.

Moscow and St Petersburg are first-world cities, modern large metropoles that are cleaner and safer than Paris or London.

Ukraine is the largest and wealthiest country in Europe by far in terms of its natural resources, agricultural potential, energy grid, heavy industries and tech (aerospace). Other than software/IT outsourcing, a small sector that has done relatively well, its economy has been driven into the ground by its corrupt leaders/oligarchs, while most eastern European and former soviet republics (including Russia) have done far better.

---

Even if Ukraine is an economic boogeyman squandering it's natural resources and business potential, it's still not a justification for Russia's invasion of the Ukraine.

---

I asked Cal88 this question earlier in the thread: how does any of this justify Russia invading Ukraine? He didn't answer directly, though given that he's spent most of his time telling us how bad Ukraine is and how great Russia is, I think I know what his opinion is.

---

I've answered this question many times before across this thread, here is a synthesis once again:

-Ukraine has been mistreating its Russian minority, not just taping them to poles in a weird and barbaric nationalist humiation ritual, but outright bombing them in the Donbass since 2014, killing 11,000 civilians. They're still wasting the trickle of American HIMARS and French Cesar munitions to bomb the center Donetsk, city without military value.

They've also barbarically repressed Russophones who protested against the Maidan Coup, for instance burning alive and clubbing to death over 60 unarmed protestors in Odessa in May 2014.




-Ukraine has been beset with a toxic brand of nationalism that recycled WW2 era banderism and views Russians as subhuman archenemies. They have the capacity and will to manufacture nuclear bombs, along with the technology and raw materials, as well as the technology to produce ballistic missiles. In other words, a hostile government that wants to acquire WMDs and is crazy enough to use them, right at Russia's borders.

As to the timing of the Russian invasion, Ukraine massed a large number of troops in the Donbass in January and was about to overrun the rebel armies of Donetsk and Luhansk, with Crimea being the next target.

Ukraine has violated numerous times the Minsk II Agreements, and in fact both Poroshenko (who had signed the deal as president of Ukraine) and Merkel both recently admitted that Minsk II was just a ploy to gain time and have NATO rearm Ukraine to the gills before they push into the Donbass and retake Crimea.

Those are the main reasons Russia invaded Ukraine.

---

So, at some point in the future if Mexico decrees that America is depriving Mexicans certain rights and/or abusing them then Mexico has the right to arm an uprising, undermine the US government, invade the US and Texas should be an independent entity? And if the US were to militarily resist that uprising the narrative would be the US is abusing people's human rights?

---

If you want a more realistic precedent, consider the Cuban Missile Crisis. Nukes near the US border by a hostile power = automatic invasion. Back then, you had responsible leaders like Kennedy handling this, they were good enough to stave off a dangerous conflagration.

---

Yes, and that invasion is now widely regarded as a mistake. Same as Russia's invasion of Ukraine, only at least the US didn't devote nearly as many resources to Cuba.

---

You're confusing the Bay of Pigs fiasco with the Cuban Missile Crisis.

---

What? Bay of Pigs was part of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Was there another US invasion of Cuba besides Bay of Pigs?

---

I seem to recall something about a charge up San Juan Hill by Teddy Roosevelt and his Saskatchewan Roughriders.

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

golden sloth said:

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oski003 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

oski003 said:

---

With that being said, I am not saying that Russia's invasion in Ukraine is justified because they are fighting Nazis. I am saying that Ukraine is an ethnically diverse country and the entire country did not revolt in the Maidan Revolution. It was driven from the West.

---

It was driven by people in Ukraine who would much rather be part of the West than remain within Russia's sphere of influence. No doubt the West encouraged it, but it was mostly coming from within Ukraine.

---

That's fair.

---

I think it is also worth noting that the countries most supportive of Ukraine (the former Soviet bloc countries like Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc.) are all united in fear of Russia. The USA is a far greater power than both Mexico and Canada, but they do not fear the US the same way the former Soviet bloc fears Russia. With exception to Belarus, why do they all choose to turn away from Russia? Is it because they know what life under Russian domination is and they choose the alternative? Why don't they trust Russia?

---

You're conflating Russia with the Soviet Union, which a lot of people in EE also do. Countries like Poland and Ukraine would be better off adopting the old Finnish model of neutrality/independence and maintaining economic relationships with both the EU and Russia, especially Ukraine, which has a large industrial infrastructure that was already set up to supply the Russian market, and was the hub for Russian natural gas. This, along with its soviet era nuclear energy, could have positioned Ukraine as the lowest cost manufacturer in Europe, leader in both labor and energy costs on the continent.

Instead Ukraine has never moved past the post-communist neoliberal oligarch corruption stage. That's the reason it went from the richest, most advanced and industrialized state in the USSR to the poorest, most corrupt country in Europe, with a GDP per capita 3 times lower than Russia's. Its industrial infrastructure has been left to rot, and its huge resources have been sold off to western multinationals by local oligarchs. These multinationals benefit from Ukraine staying in a 3rd world-like economic climate, not unlike many countries in the third world that are being exploited, buying assets for pennies on the dollar.

Quote:

---

Ukraine opens up for Monsanto, land grabs and GMOs

[url=https://theecologist.org/profile/joyce-nelson][/url]Joyce Nelson
11th September 2014

Dying for GMOs? One of 35 members of the neo-nazi Aidar Battalion killed in an ambush by rebels in East Ukraine, 6 September 2014. Photo: Colonel Cassad.

Hidden from mainstream media exposure, the World Bank and IMF loan has opened up Ukraine to major corporate inroads, writes Joyce Nelson. Loan conditions are forcing the deeply indebted country to open up to GMO crops, and lift the ban on private sector land ownership. US corporations are jubilant at the 'goldmine' that awaits them.

---

https://theecologist.org/2014/sep/11/ukraine-opens-monsanto-land-grabs-and-gmos

https://www.oaklandinstitute.org/sites/oaklandinstitute.org/files/Brief_CorporateTakeovero***raine_0.pdf

---

Perhaps your Ukraine economic question is answered in the same post. The most advanced Russian/USSR partner is poorest European country.

You also appear to miss the part where Russia's neighbors choose to keep Russia at arms length either politically or economically precisely because Russia isn't trustworthy, as demonstrated most recently by their actions in Ukraine.

---

Ukraine's economic problems are not a Soviet problem, they're a Ukrainian corruption problem, that country being the most corrupt in Europe, much more so than other former Soviet or eastern block countries.

Kazakhstan, former soviet state, has a higher GDP than Ukraine, with less than half the population. Belarus which is an authoritarian country and also a former Soviet state is also significantly richer than Ukraine.

Ukraine's GDP per capita is below that of El Salvador,, Guatemala and Jamaica, just above that of Egypt and Namibia. Here's a country that started out with one of the best power grids in Europe including some of the largest nuclear powerplants, lots of heavy industry, steel, metals, shipyards and advanced tech like rocket factories and aerospace industry (Antonov, Motorsich etc), and now its economy registers below that of El Salvador...

Ukraine is a very rich country that has been sucked dry of all of its resources and its industry has been left to rot, and that was before any fighting started. Russia was in the same boat in the 1990s, but has since then turned the corner with Putin reigning in his oligarchs and making large infrastructure investments, as well as reforms like the nationalization of all oil and gas and other sectors, payment of national debt (vs Ukraine being subjugated to crippling IMF loan sharking and stripping of its national assets and resources).

Russia today has a large national fund and has accumulated large gold and currency reserves (though about a third are being seized by the EU and US). Ukrainian leaders like Zelensky or Poroshenko have been more interested in their billion dollar fortunes than in reigning in their national debt.

Russia is set to pass Germany as the world's 5th largest economy PPP later this decade. It has turned from a wheat importer in the 1990s to the world's largest wheat exporter, becoming the global market leader, position it used to have early in the 20th century before the Bolshevik Revolution destroyed its farms and economy.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-16/russia-is-exporting-more-wheat-than-any-country-in-25-years

Quote:

---

"When you look at the last two decades, Russia has shown such impressive growth," Stefan Vogel, global sector strategist for grain and oilseeds at Rabobank, told World Grain. "You look at the acreage changes; they've gone up 30% to 50% for many of the grain crops such as wheat and sunflower seed. Production has grown three times more than it was. Wheat production nowadays is 150% above where it was 20 years ago. It's been impressive to see how much this country was able to scale up production."

The first year of the 21st century, Russia exported a modest 696,000 tonnes of wheat. Ten years later, having made tremendous inroads into Asian, Middle East and African markets, Russia increased that total to 18.5 million tonnes. ...In 2012, Russian President Vladimir Putin boldly stated that Russia would double its grain exports by 2020. By 2018, Russia more than doubled that total when it exported a jaw-dropping 41.4 million tonnes of wheat, which still stands as a record

---

https://www.world-grain.com/articles/16273-the-fall-and-rise-of-russian-wheat

Russia made large investments into its infrastructure, ports, railroads, highways and airports. Its airports today are more modern than those in the US. It's also building up its domestic passenger jet industry with homegrown modern engines, set to enter the global market and compete with Boeing and Airbus.

Russia is going to corner other markets like it cornered the wheat market due to the fact that they have the lowest energy costs in the world today, they are going to be able to export their oil and gas indirectly through the production of energy-intensive products like metals (steel, aluminum etc), cement, paper etc., which they are able to produce domestically from raw material extraction to the final product.

Moscow and St Petersburg are first-world cities, modern large metropoles that are cleaner and safer than Paris or London.

Ukraine is the largest and wealthiest country in Europe by far in terms of its natural resources, agricultural potential, energy grid, heavy industries and tech (aerospace). Other than software/IT outsourcing, a small sector that has done relatively well, its economy has been driven into the ground by its corrupt leaders/oligarchs, while most eastern European and former soviet republics (including Russia) have done far better.

---

Even if Ukraine is an economic boogeyman squandering it's natural resources and business potential, it's still not a justification for Russia's invasion of the Ukraine.

---

I asked Cal88 this question earlier in the thread: how does any of this justify Russia invading Ukraine? He didn't answer directly, though given that he's spent most of his time telling us how bad Ukraine is and how great Russia is, I think I know what his opinion is.

---

I've answered this question many times before across this thread, here is a synthesis once again:

-Ukraine has been mistreating its Russian minority, not just taping them to poles in a weird and barbaric nationalist humiation ritual, but outright bombing them in the Donbass since 2014, killing 11,000 civilians. They're still wasting the trickle of American HIMARS and French Cesar munitions to bomb the center Donetsk, city without military value.

They've also barbarically repressed Russophones who protested against the Maidan Coup, for instance burning alive and clubbing to death over 60 unarmed protestors in Odessa in May 2014.




-Ukraine has been beset with a toxic brand of nationalism that recycled WW2 era banderism and views Russians as subhuman archenemies. They have the capacity and will to manufacture nuclear bombs, along with the technology and raw materials, as well as the technology to produce ballistic missiles. In other words, a hostile government that wants to acquire WMDs and is crazy enough to use them, right at Russia's borders.

As to the timing of the Russian invasion, Ukraine massed a large number of troops in the Donbass in January and was about to overrun the rebel armies of Donetsk and Luhansk, with Crimea being the next target.

Ukraine has violated numerous times the Minsk II Agreements, and in fact both Poroshenko (who had signed the deal as president of Ukraine) and Merkel both recently admitted that Minsk II was just a ploy to gain time and have NATO rearm Ukraine to the gills before they push into the Donbass and retake Crimea.

Those are the main reasons Russia invaded Ukraine.

---

So, at some point in the future if Mexico decrees that America is depriving Mexicans certain rights and/or abusing them then Mexico has the right to arm an uprising, undermine the US government, invade the US and Texas should be an independent entity? And if the US were to militarily resist that uprising the narrative would be the US is abusing people's human rights?

---

If you want a more realistic precedent, consider the Cuban Missile Crisis. Nukes near the US border by a hostile power = automatic invasion. Back then, you had responsible leaders like Kennedy handling this, they were good enough to stave off a dangerous conflagration.

---

Yes, and that invasion is now widely regarded as a mistake. Same as Russia's invasion of Ukraine, only at least the US didn't devote nearly as many resources to Cuba.

---

You're confusing the Bay of Pigs fiasco with the Cuban Missile Crisis.

---

What? Bay of Pigs was part of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Was there another US invasion of Cuba besides Bay of Pigs?

---

I seem to recall something about a charge up San Juan Hill by Teddy Roosevelt and his Saskatchewan Roughriders.

---

Did he do that because of the nukes?

More evidence of war crimes against children by the Russia military. Disgusting if true.

Quote:

---

Ukrainian authorities discovered a room that Russians used to detain and torture children during the occupation of Kherson, Dmytro Lubinets, the Human Rights Commissioner of the Verkhovna Rada, said on Dec. 14.

According to testimonies from locals, other torture victims in the facility knew that Ukrainian children had been kept there by Russian security services, who had called the room "the children's cell."

The children were given little water and almost no food, Lubinets said. According to locals' testimonies, the children were subhect to psychological abuse at the hands of their Russian captors, who told them that their parents had abandoned them and that they would never return home.

One 14-year-old boy was arrested and later tortured just for taking a picture of broken Russian equipment, Lubinets said.

"We recorded the torture of children for the first time," said Lubinets. "I thought that the bottom could not be broken after Bucha, Irpin... but we really reached the bottom in Kherson."

Dozens of torture chambers have been discovered across the liberated areas in Kherson, Kharkiv, and Donetsk oblasts. Local prosecutors say they have found four locations so far in Kherson where Ukrainians were tortured.

While an estimated third of Ukrainian children have fled their homes due to Russia's war, there are still many remaining in Russian-occupied territories or areas where heavy fighting continues. They get kidnapped, forcibly deported, wounded, and killed.

One 16-year-old Ukrainian interviewed by the Kyiv Independent in August who underwent Russian captivity in occupied Melitopol said he was forced to follow orders, such as cleaning the "torture room" awash with victims' blood.

Russia's daily shellings and missile strikes have indiscriminately killed civilians of all ages, including infants.

Prosecutors say that at least 443 children have been killed and more than 855 wounded since Feb. 24. But the real figures are expected to be higher since they don't include the number of victims in Mariupol and Volnovakha, the once-besieged cities in eastern Donetsk Oblast that were heavily bombarded and are now under Russian occupation.

---

Areas in US Most Likely to Be Struck in a Nuclear Attack by Russia


https://www.businessinsider.com/likely-us-nuclear-targets-2017-5

bearister said:

---

Areas in US Most Likely to Be Struck in a Nuclear Attack by Russia


https://www.businessinsider.com/likely-us-nuclear-targets-2017-5

---

I'm going to Disneyland!

Looks like Dr Strangelove is in charge of the WSJ editorial, these people are certifiably nuts:

"The U.S. Should Show It Can Win a Nuclear War"

• Opinion
• Commentary

The U.S. Should Show It Can Win a Nuclear War
Washington might study Cold War-era practices that had a major effect on Soviet policy making.
By Seth Cropsey
April 27, 2022 1:08 pm ET


https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-us-show-it-can-win-a-nuclear-war-russia-putin-ukraine-nato-sarmat-missile-testing-warning-11651067733

`Seth Cropsey is the son of Joseph Cropsey and father of Gabriel,[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth_Cropsey#cite_note-1][1][/url] noted Straussian political philosopher and professor at the University of Chicago. Graduated from Harvard-St. George School, Chicago, IL and St. John's College and received his M.A. from Boston College. From 1977 to 1980, he was a reporter for Fortune magazine. In 1981, Cropsey was speechwriter and assistant to Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger. Between 1982 and 1984, Cropsey was Director of Policy at the Voice of America. He was Deputy Undersecretary of the Navy during both the Ronald Reagan and George H. W. Bush Presidential administrations, and in 1991, was the principal Assistant Secretary of Defense for Special Operations/Low Intensity Conflict & Interdependent Capabilities.
Between 1994 and 1998, Cropsey was Director of the Heritage Foundation's Asia Studies Center and Professor of the George C. Marshall European Center for Security Studies in Garmisch-Partenkirchen, Germany.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth_Cropsey#cite_note-2][2][/url] From 1999 to 2001 he was a visiting fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth_Cropsey#cite_note-3][3][/url]
He worked as a Director of Governmental Affairs at the lobbying law firm of Greenberg Traurig in 2002, and was a registered lobbyist with that firm.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth_Cropsey#cite_note-4][4][/url]
Crospey was a signatory of the Letter to President Bush on the War on Terrorism.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth_Cropsey#cite_note-5][5][/url] On December 9, 2002, Cropsey joined the George W. Bush Administration as the director of the International Broadcasting Bureau.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth_Cropsey#cite_note-6][6][/url] His works have been published in Commentary, Foreign Affairs, Policy Review, The National Interest, National Review, and The Wall Street Journal and the inaugural Joint Force Quarterly. He is the author of Mayday: The Decline of American Naval Supremacy.`

Unit2Sucks said:

---

More evidence of war crimes against children by the Russia military. Disgusting if true.

Quote:

---

Ukrainian authorities discovered a room that Russians used to detain and torture children during the occupation of Kherson, Dmytro Lubinets, the Human Rights Commissioner of the Verkhovna Rada, said on Dec. 14.

According to testimonies from locals, other torture victims in the facility knew that Ukrainian children had been kept there by Russian security services, who had called the room "the children's cell."

The children were given little water and almost no food, Lubinets said. According to locals' testimonies, the children were subhect to psychological abuse at the hands of their Russian captors, who told them that their parents had abandoned them and that they would never return home.

One 14-year-old boy was arrested and later tortured just for taking a picture of broken Russian equipment, Lubinets said.

"We recorded the torture of children for the first time," said Lubinets. "I thought that the bottom could not be broken after Bucha, Irpin... but we really reached the bottom in Kherson."

Dozens of torture chambers have been discovered across the liberated areas in Kherson, Kharkiv, and Donetsk oblasts. Local prosecutors say they have found four locations so far in Kherson where Ukrainians were tortured.

While an estimated third of Ukrainian children have fled their homes due to Russia's war, there are still many remaining in Russian-occupied territories or areas where heavy fighting continues. They get kidnapped, forcibly deported, wounded, and killed.

One 16-year-old Ukrainian interviewed by the Kyiv Independent in August who underwent Russian captivity in occupied Melitopol said he was forced to follow orders, such as cleaning the "torture room" awash with victims' blood.

Russia's daily shellings and missile strikes have indiscriminately killed civilians of all ages, including infants.

Prosecutors say that at least 443 children have been killed and more than 855 wounded since Feb. 24. But the real figures are expected to be higher since they don't include the number of victims in Mariupol and Volnovakha, the once-besieged cities in eastern Donetsk Oblast that were heavily bombarded and are now under Russian occupation.

---

---

The theme of child abuse is a favorite among professional Ukraine propagandists, the head of Ukrainian propaganda was famous for her group's creative license on this subject. Eventually, like in the case of The Ghost of Kiev, the Snake Island Thirteen and other fabrications in this war, truth caught up with her, and the Ukrainian government had to fire her.

"The racist occupiers must bear the strictest responsibility!" said Ukrainian Parliament Commissioner for Human Rights, Lyudmila Denisova, of Russian soldiers. https://t.co/ObN7cDbEJv

— Newsweek (@Newsweek) April 8, 2022

Western Media Run Blatant Atrocity Propaganda For The Ukrainian Government

"The latest story making the rounds is a completely unevidenced claim made by a Ukrainian government official that Russians are going around raping Ukrainian babies to death."https://t.co/tuYauL2Hol

— Caitlin Johnstone (@caitoz) May 21, 2022

"Ukrainian official behind Western media reports of Russian atrocities fired by Ukrainian parliament"

Quote:

---

UKRAINE'S sacked former human rights chief Lyudmila Denisova has admitted promoting fake news to persuade Western countries to send more arms and aid.

Ms Denisova said she lied to the Italian parliament in order to change their minds about sending weapons to Ukraine.

---

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/w/ukrainian-former-human-rights-chief-admits-promoting-fake-news-to-convince-west-to-send-more-arms

This story along the same lines of Russian mass rapes was circulated in the media, spread by a UN source:

Russian soldiers are supplied with Viagra to rape Ukrainian women and 'dehumanize' them, claims UN official
https://www.businessinsider.com/russian-soldiers-supplied-with-viagra-to-rape-ukrainians-un-official-2022-10

The culture of over-the-top anti-Russian propaganda permeates the entire Ukrainian government, official media sources and related NGOs, most of the independent Ukrainian media having been completely purged by the Zelensky government, a good sample of that is this blatant lie by Mrs Zelensky herself:

https://t.co/Ge0ZpZm8EE

— AZ 🛰🌏🌍🌎 (@AZgeopolitics) November 28, 2022

Russians look at Ukrainians as their wayward cousins, there is no official propaganda that dehumanizes them. The majority of Ukrainians have relatives in Russia. In the eastern and southern provinces, it is more like 3/4 and up.

Ukrainian central government on the other hand have build up a nationalist ideal based on race. This is even enshrined in their constitution, "saving of gene pool of the Ukrainian people is the duty of the state." They draw their ideology from the OUN (Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists) and UPA, which views Ukrainian nationalism in racial terms, with other nationalities/ethnicities or cultures are undesirable occupiers/enemies - Poles, Jews, Russians, Gypsies. Russians are viewed as a backwards, racially impure, asiatic parasites.

That's the lens through which the Donbass population has been viewed by the Kiev government, with right-wing parliamentarians openly calling for their extermination, and the president himself stating that "their children will grow up in bomb shelters and basements" with their cities being bombed without interruption since 2014, when the war he describes here started.

Cal88 said:

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Looks like Dr Strangelove is in charge of the WSJ editorial, these people are certifiably nuts:

"The U.S. Should Show It Can Win a Nuclear War"

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Wow. That IS nuts.
The article I posted above says nothing about nukes.

Ukrainian MP Kira Rudik before and after getting her hands on foreign billions.
I wonder what she spent her first payout on.👍 pic.twitter.com/a6oHqtDCdF

— Cockroach (@Rodoflondon) December 11, 2022

Sounds like the proxy war is a good thing for us?

Unit2Sucks said:

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oski003 said:

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Sounds like the proxy war is a good thing for us?

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It would be better for all concerned if Russia withdrew and made reparations for all of the harm they've caused Ukraine. Until such time as they withdrew, supporting Ukraine is more in our interest than any other marginal military spend.

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It is obvious that Russia is not going to withdraw and make reparations unless they are actually defeated. Considering reality, what is the realistic move that is better for all concerned? Continuing to fight them via proxy war until they are defeated? It certainly could be the best move... that is what you are championing, correct?

oski003 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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oski003 said:

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Sounds like the proxy war is a good thing for us?

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It would be better for all concerned if Russia withdrew and made reparations for all of the harm they've caused Ukraine. Until such time as they withdrew, supporting Ukraine is more in our interest than any other marginal military spend.

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It is obvious that Russia is not going to withdraw and make reparations unless they are actually defeated. Considering reality, what is the realistic move that is better for all concerned? Continuing to fight them via proxy war until they are defeated? It certainly could be the best move... that is what you are championing, correct?

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This is a logical fallacy. You think reality is that Russia is going to win unless defeated and so we shouldn't try to defeat them. You're assuming the Kremlin's narrative.

Let's flip it. Putin should "realistically" accept that he can't win this war unless he's prepared to defeat Ukraine with unlimited NATO support, which to date has been an abject failure for Russia. The best time to stop the war for Russia was before it started. The second best time was yesterday. The next best time is today, tomorrow or the day after. Because Putin can't win this war, he should get out as soon as possible.

What we know is that with every passing day, Putin and Russia's military continues to prove that it has nowhere near the capabilities that the world thought they had and that continuing to wage war against Ukraine is not in Russia's long-term interests.

I'm for supporting Ukraine (together with the worldwide coalition) so long as they are asking for support. Russia is a pariah on the world stage with no friends outside of perhaps Iran. This war has done more to disabuse the world of the notion that NATO is weak, that Russia is capable of building a coalition to wage a world war or anything else. War sucks, but this war has proven that WWIII is not a risk we need to worry about right now. After seeing what a disaster this has been for Russia, does anyone think China or India wants to hold hands and destroy their economies in order to join in the misery?

Unit2Sucks said:

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oski003 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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oski003 said:

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Sounds like the proxy war is a good thing for us?

---

It would be better for all concerned if Russia withdrew and made reparations for all of the harm they've caused Ukraine. Until such time as they withdrew, supporting Ukraine is more in our interest than any other marginal military spend.

---

It is obvious that Russia is not going to withdraw and make reparations unless they are actually defeated. Considering reality, what is the realistic move that is better for all concerned? Continuing to fight them via proxy war until they are defeated? It certainly could be the best move... that is what you are championing, correct?

---

This is a logical fallacy. You think reality is that Russia is going to win unless defeated and so we shouldn't try to defeat them. You're assuming the Kremlin's narrative.

Let's flip it. Putin should "realistically" accept that he can't win this war unless he's prepared to defeat Ukraine with unlimited NATO support, which to date has been an abject failure for Russia. The best time to stop the war for Russia was before it started. The second best time was yesterday. The next best time is today, tomorrow or the day after. Because Putin can't win this war, he should get out as soon as possible.

What we know is that with every passing day, Putin and Russia's military continues to prove that it has nowhere near the capabilities that the world thought they had and that continuing to wage war against Ukraine is not in Russia's long-term interests.

I'm for supporting Ukraine (together with the worldwide coalition) so long as they are asking for support. Russia is a pariah on the world stage with no friends outside of perhaps Iran. This war has done more to disabuse the world of the notion that NATO is weak, that Russia is capable of building a coalition to wage a world war or anything else. War sucks, but this war has proven that WWIII is not a risk we need to worry about right now. After seeing what a disaster this has been for Russia, does anyone think China or India wants to hold hands and destroy their economies in order to join in the misery?

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I am not assuming anything. Yes, Putin should "realistically" accept that he can't win this war unless he's prepared to defeat Ukraine with NATO support.

Unit2Sucks said:

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oski003 said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

---

oski003 said:

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

oski003 said:

---

Sounds like the proxy war is a good thing for us?

---

It would be better for all concerned if Russia withdrew and made reparations for all of the harm they've caused Ukraine. Until such time as they withdrew, supporting Ukraine is more in our interest than any other marginal military spend.

---

It is obvious that Russia is not going to withdraw and make reparations unless they are actually defeated. Considering reality, what is the realistic move that is better for all concerned? Continuing to fight them via proxy war until they are defeated? It certainly could be the best move... that is what you are championing, correct?

---

This is a logical fallacy. You think reality is that Russia is going to win unless defeated and so we shouldn't try to defeat them. You're assuming the Kremlin's narrative.

Let's flip it. Putin should "realistically" accept that he can't win this war unless he's prepared to defeat Ukraine with unlimited NATO support, which to date has been an abject failure for Russia. The best time to stop the war for Russia was before it started. The second best time was yesterday. The next best time is today, tomorrow or the day after. Because Putin can't win this war, he should get out as soon as possible.

What we know is that with every passing day, Putin and Russia's military continues to prove that it has nowhere near the capabilities that the world thought they had and that continuing to wage war against Ukraine is not in Russia's long-term interests.

I'm for supporting Ukraine (together with the worldwide coalition) so long as they are asking for support. Russia is a pariah on the world stage with no friends outside of perhaps Iran. This war has done more to disabuse the world of the notion that NATO is weak, that Russia is capable of building a coalition to wage a world war or anything else. War sucks, but this war has proven that WWIII is not a risk we need to worry about right now. After seeing what a disaster this has been for Russia, does anyone think China or India wants to hold hands and destroy their economies in order to join in the misery?

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I am not assuming anything. Yes, Putin should "realistically" accept that he can't win this war unless he's prepared to defeat Ukraine with NATO support.

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By any reasonable inference, Russia has already been defeated. In the 10 months since they've invaded they've achieved no strategic goals and they have suffered massive looses to their troops, their equipment and their economy. Any other leader would have accepted this is an unwinnable war and moved on. But Putin doesn't care about any of that.

They have somewhere in the neighborhood of 200k casualties (roughly equal to their original force), they've lost half of their tanks (and the remaining ones are even worse than the ones they lost), they can't equip and support their troops - most of whom now are untrained and uninterested, they're the number one weapon supplier to Ukraine due to their incredibly high desertion rate combined with numerous messy retreats and they are increasingly forced to rely on Iranian support.

Instead, Russia is going to fight until the Russian people make them stop.

And speaking of Iran, I can't help but think that Iran wouldn't be lifting a finger for Russia if we still had the JCPOA in effect. Because Trump killed it, Iran has very little reason to play nice with us and it's entirely possible that Putin has agreed to provide nukes to them in exchange for military support. But at least the GOP can buy Trump NFTs lol.

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Oleksandr Syrsky says you are heading for defeat.

https://www.economist.com/syrsky-interview