The Official Russian Invasion of Ukraine Thread

873,910 Views | 9916 Replies | Last: 1 day ago by bear2034
sycasey
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MinotStateBeav said:

sycasey said:

MinotStateBeav said:

sycasey said:

golden sloth said:

Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

golden sloth said:

Unit2Sucks said:

sycasey said:

golden sloth said:

So it was the Americans that convinced the Russians they had to De-Nazify Ukraine. It all makes no sense now!

Did the Americans force Russia to illegally annex Crimea? What about invade Georgia? Or put down the Chechen rebellion?

The important thing to remember is that Russia has always been forced into every bad thing they appear to have done. They're basically wild animals, just reacting to stimuli. They can't make any decisions for themselves.

At least this appears to be the argument, when you lay it all out.
What we are seeing across the Putinverse is a sloppy desperation matched by Putin's descent into the Howard Hughes phase of his life. As Putin falls further and further into his Hitler-in-a-bunker paranoia, Russian disinformation has become even more and more detached from reality. For example, Putin no longer travels by air and only by armored train.

After years of being lied to about the strength of his command-less military, he is unwilling to accept reality so his handlers are forced to paint a pretty picture for him and we are seeing that mirrored across the various disinformation channels that they employ. I have no doubt that they continue to lie about the disproportionate casualties they have taken because they cannot tell him the truth.

We've also seen a shifting narrative play itself out repeatedly during this war. They would have us believe that Russia has purposefully accomplished nothing to date in this war but is about to crack the big one because of some new thing. They've been saying this from basically day one and it hasn't come true yet. The reality is that Russia is trying to win this war but has been unable to for a multitude of reasons. They didn't decide in some sophisticated war room to trot out an incompetent and unprepared military force for 400+ days in order to set the table for some new thing. They promised a big winter offensive but now pretend that there never was a winter offensive and that they were just preparing for UFA's spring offensive. If you go back and look at what the Russian propagandists (now with blue checks!) have been saying about the war the last few months, it's hilarious. They told us Bakhmut was turning in favor of Russia in last fall and then earlier in winter and then again in February (without admitting that it meant that things weren't in Russia's favor before then). And then again in March. And now here we are in April but this time it's real. No seriously! We were told by Ritter Mcgregor that Bakhmut fell a few weeks ago. And so on and so forth.

It's all pointless and unconvincing but they are still delusional enough to think it works. But, here in the real world, Russia is further from winning this war than they were 1 year ago and they have no path to a lasting victory as enemy occupiers.

Well said.

Having been born in the early 80's most of my life and all of my critically thinking life occurred after the cold war ended (I vaguely remember seeing the images of the berlin wall and the coup attempt in moscow, though I didnt understand their impact then). The last 30 years has been mostly voided of great power conflict and until recent years the authoritarian regime of Russia aided by the much stronger authoritarian regime of China began to challenge US authority and the pre-eminence of democracy as the government of choice.

Therefore, I am only seeing the true strength of democracy as a form of government in practice now. Yes, its messy and it looks like the US is tearing apart, but the visibility of the issues is its the greatest strength. All the reasons you cited about Putin and the Russian war effort are prevalent in authoritarian regimes and ultimately cause it's own failure. In a democracy short-comings are exposed and addressed this allowing for change and improvement.

In Democracies, the flexibility and ability to adapt is a feature, not a bug.

Cal alum Eric Li, a Chinese citizen on this subject, said that you can change parties in the US, but you can't change policies, whereas in China you can't change parties but the policies adapt and change, providing economic success to their people.





The US is failing in a number of key sectors, like providing affordable education, healthcare, building infrastructure, addressing urban issues (crime, poverty, broken families etc), maintaining its large middle class and weening itself from the MIC. And on top of that, we have had a loss in liberties that are presumably enshrined into the Constitution.

China has done all these things better over the last two decades. That's why today they are seen as the model for the developing world.


That is wrong.

China's housing market is in shambles and is aided by a shrinking population. Their healthcare system completely failed the covid pandemic to the pointt they stopped collecting data. The best and brightest still go abroad for schooling.

But the cherry on top is when you stated that China is preserving the liberties of their citizens better than the USA?

The uighars, the Hong Kong protests, and everyone locked in their house for months on end disagree.

Notice how Cal88 always sticks up for authoritarian countries over liberal democracies.
Who cares...go after the argument, not the person. If you're just going to attack the poster, why even argue on here?

Okay. His arguments are usually bad and when they are it's always in one direction. I'm just pointing that out.

Also, who cares about supporting authoritarians over democratic leaders? Not sure how to answer that.
Signed,
Current Year University

I don't know what this means.
Eastern Oregon Bear
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sycasey said:

MinotStateBeav said:

sycasey said:

MinotStateBeav said:

sycasey said:

golden sloth said:

Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

golden sloth said:

Unit2Sucks said:

sycasey said:

golden sloth said:

So it was the Americans that convinced the Russians they had to De-Nazify Ukraine. It all makes no sense now!

Did the Americans force Russia to illegally annex Crimea? What about invade Georgia? Or put down the Chechen rebellion?

The important thing to remember is that Russia has always been forced into every bad thing they appear to have done. They're basically wild animals, just reacting to stimuli. They can't make any decisions for themselves.

At least this appears to be the argument, when you lay it all out.
What we are seeing across the Putinverse is a sloppy desperation matched by Putin's descent into the Howard Hughes phase of his life. As Putin falls further and further into his Hitler-in-a-bunker paranoia, Russian disinformation has become even more and more detached from reality. For example, Putin no longer travels by air and only by armored train.

After years of being lied to about the strength of his command-less military, he is unwilling to accept reality so his handlers are forced to paint a pretty picture for him and we are seeing that mirrored across the various disinformation channels that they employ. I have no doubt that they continue to lie about the disproportionate casualties they have taken because they cannot tell him the truth.

We've also seen a shifting narrative play itself out repeatedly during this war. They would have us believe that Russia has purposefully accomplished nothing to date in this war but is about to crack the big one because of some new thing. They've been saying this from basically day one and it hasn't come true yet. The reality is that Russia is trying to win this war but has been unable to for a multitude of reasons. They didn't decide in some sophisticated war room to trot out an incompetent and unprepared military force for 400+ days in order to set the table for some new thing. They promised a big winter offensive but now pretend that there never was a winter offensive and that they were just preparing for UFA's spring offensive. If you go back and look at what the Russian propagandists (now with blue checks!) have been saying about the war the last few months, it's hilarious. They told us Bakhmut was turning in favor of Russia in last fall and then earlier in winter and then again in February (without admitting that it meant that things weren't in Russia's favor before then). And then again in March. And now here we are in April but this time it's real. No seriously! We were told by Ritter Mcgregor that Bakhmut fell a few weeks ago. And so on and so forth.

It's all pointless and unconvincing but they are still delusional enough to think it works. But, here in the real world, Russia is further from winning this war than they were 1 year ago and they have no path to a lasting victory as enemy occupiers.

Well said.

Having been born in the early 80's most of my life and all of my critically thinking life occurred after the cold war ended (I vaguely remember seeing the images of the berlin wall and the coup attempt in moscow, though I didnt understand their impact then). The last 30 years has been mostly voided of great power conflict and until recent years the authoritarian regime of Russia aided by the much stronger authoritarian regime of China began to challenge US authority and the pre-eminence of democracy as the government of choice.

Therefore, I am only seeing the true strength of democracy as a form of government in practice now. Yes, its messy and it looks like the US is tearing apart, but the visibility of the issues is its the greatest strength. All the reasons you cited about Putin and the Russian war effort are prevalent in authoritarian regimes and ultimately cause it's own failure. In a democracy short-comings are exposed and addressed this allowing for change and improvement.

In Democracies, the flexibility and ability to adapt is a feature, not a bug.

Cal alum Eric Li, a Chinese citizen on this subject, said that you can change parties in the US, but you can't change policies, whereas in China you can't change parties but the policies adapt and change, providing economic success to their people.





The US is failing in a number of key sectors, like providing affordable education, healthcare, building infrastructure, addressing urban issues (crime, poverty, broken families etc), maintaining its large middle class and weening itself from the MIC. And on top of that, we have had a loss in liberties that are presumably enshrined into the Constitution.

China has done all these things better over the last two decades. That's why today they are seen as the model for the developing world.


That is wrong.

China's housing market is in shambles and is aided by a shrinking population. Their healthcare system completely failed the covid pandemic to the pointt they stopped collecting data. The best and brightest still go abroad for schooling.

But the cherry on top is when you stated that China is preserving the liberties of their citizens better than the USA?

The uighars, the Hong Kong protests, and everyone locked in their house for months on end disagree.

Notice how Cal88 always sticks up for authoritarian countries over liberal democracies.
Who cares...go after the argument, not the person. If you're just going to attack the poster, why even argue on here?

Okay. His arguments are usually bad and when they are it's always in one direction. I'm just pointing that out.

Also, who cares about supporting authoritarians over democratic leaders? Not sure how to answer that.
Signed,
Current Year University

I don't know what this means.
I've noticed a bunch of posts from Minot lately that just seem to be a few words randomly thrown together with no apparent meaning or relevance to the subject. I'm wondering if he's OK.
Cal88
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Eastern Oregon Bear said:

sycasey said:

MinotStateBeav said:

sycasey said:

MinotStateBeav said:

sycasey said:

golden sloth said:

Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

golden sloth said:

Unit2Sucks said:

sycasey said:

golden sloth said:

So it was the Americans that convinced the Russians they had to De-Nazify Ukraine. It all makes no sense now!

Did the Americans force Russia to illegally annex Crimea? What about invade Georgia? Or put down the Chechen rebellion?

The important thing to remember is that Russia has always been forced into every bad thing they appear to have done. They're basically wild animals, just reacting to stimuli. They can't make any decisions for themselves.

At least this appears to be the argument, when you lay it all out.
What we are seeing across the Putinverse is a sloppy desperation matched by Putin's descent into the Howard Hughes phase of his life. As Putin falls further and further into his Hitler-in-a-bunker paranoia, Russian disinformation has become even more and more detached from reality. For example, Putin no longer travels by air and only by armored train.

After years of being lied to about the strength of his command-less military, he is unwilling to accept reality so his handlers are forced to paint a pretty picture for him and we are seeing that mirrored across the various disinformation channels that they employ. I have no doubt that they continue to lie about the disproportionate casualties they have taken because they cannot tell him the truth.

We've also seen a shifting narrative play itself out repeatedly during this war. They would have us believe that Russia has purposefully accomplished nothing to date in this war but is about to crack the big one because of some new thing. They've been saying this from basically day one and it hasn't come true yet. The reality is that Russia is trying to win this war but has been unable to for a multitude of reasons. They didn't decide in some sophisticated war room to trot out an incompetent and unprepared military force for 400+ days in order to set the table for some new thing. They promised a big winter offensive but now pretend that there never was a winter offensive and that they were just preparing for UFA's spring offensive. If you go back and look at what the Russian propagandists (now with blue checks!) have been saying about the war the last few months, it's hilarious. They told us Bakhmut was turning in favor of Russia in last fall and then earlier in winter and then again in February (without admitting that it meant that things weren't in Russia's favor before then). And then again in March. And now here we are in April but this time it's real. No seriously! We were told by Ritter Mcgregor that Bakhmut fell a few weeks ago. And so on and so forth.

It's all pointless and unconvincing but they are still delusional enough to think it works. But, here in the real world, Russia is further from winning this war than they were 1 year ago and they have no path to a lasting victory as enemy occupiers.

Well said.

Having been born in the early 80's most of my life and all of my critically thinking life occurred after the cold war ended (I vaguely remember seeing the images of the berlin wall and the coup attempt in moscow, though I didnt understand their impact then). The last 30 years has been mostly voided of great power conflict and until recent years the authoritarian regime of Russia aided by the much stronger authoritarian regime of China began to challenge US authority and the pre-eminence of democracy as the government of choice.

Therefore, I am only seeing the true strength of democracy as a form of government in practice now. Yes, its messy and it looks like the US is tearing apart, but the visibility of the issues is its the greatest strength. All the reasons you cited about Putin and the Russian war effort are prevalent in authoritarian regimes and ultimately cause it's own failure. In a democracy short-comings are exposed and addressed this allowing for change and improvement.

In Democracies, the flexibility and ability to adapt is a feature, not a bug.

Cal alum Eric Li, a Chinese citizen on this subject, said that you can change parties in the US, but you can't change policies, whereas in China you can't change parties but the policies adapt and change, providing economic success to their people.





The US is failing in a number of key sectors, like providing affordable education, healthcare, building infrastructure, addressing urban issues (crime, poverty, broken families etc), maintaining its large middle class and weening itself from the MIC. And on top of that, we have had a loss in liberties that are presumably enshrined into the Constitution.

China has done all these things better over the last two decades. That's why today they are seen as the model for the developing world.


That is wrong.

China's housing market is in shambles and is aided by a shrinking population. Their healthcare system completely failed the covid pandemic to the pointt they stopped collecting data. The best and brightest still go abroad for schooling.

But the cherry on top is when you stated that China is preserving the liberties of their citizens better than the USA?

The uighars, the Hong Kong protests, and everyone locked in their house for months on end disagree.

Notice how Cal88 always sticks up for authoritarian countries over liberal democracies.
Who cares...go after the argument, not the person. If you're just going to attack the poster, why even argue on here?

Okay. His arguments are usually bad and when they are it's always in one direction. I'm just pointing that out.

Also, who cares about supporting authoritarians over democratic leaders? Not sure how to answer that.
Signed,
Current Year University

I don't know what this means.
I've noticed a bunch of posts from Minot lately that just seem to be a few words randomly thrown together with no apparent meaning or relevance to the subject. I'm wondering if he's OK.

Watch Out For This Kind Of Troll.


Cal88
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golden sloth said:

Cal88 said:



Cal alum Eric Li, a Chinese citizen on this subject, said that you can change parties in the US, but you can't change policies, whereas in China you can't change parties but the policies adapt and change, providing economic success to their people.

The US is failing in a number of key sectors, like providing affordable education, healthcare, building infrastructure, addressing urban issues (crime, poverty, broken families etc), maintaining its large middle class and weening itself from the MIC. And on top of that, we have had a loss in liberties that are presumably enshrined into the Constitution.

China has done all these things better over the last two decades. That's why today they are seen as the model for the developing world.


That is wrong.

China's housing market is in shambles and is aided by a shrinking population. Their healthcare system completely failed the covid pandemic to the point they stopped collecting data. The best and brightest still go abroad for schooling.

China has a home ownership rate of 96%. Young couples in China can afford to buy a house, and even if they live in an expensive city like Shenzhen or Beijing, they can buy in the suburbs and have access to the city center via modern clean, efficient subsidized rail transport.

In the US, Canada, France or UK, the majority of young people cannot afford to buy a house, entire generations are being shut out from the housing market.

China has excess housing supply, because they don't have the kind of red tape and regulations that stifle property developers in Blue cities here. Them having a housing bubble is not nearly the same problem it could have here, because their economy is driven by industrial production and exports, rather than FIRE speculation.

China's universities have consistently climbed in the world rankings, the gap with US has closed in STEM, while in the social sciences US universities are no longer attractive due to exorbitant costs as well as woke curriculums.



I agree about their covid response, totally bonkers, no argument here. Not that our handling was much better though, or that of liberal democracies like Australia, France etc, who set up equally draconian measures restricting freedoms.





Covid: Woman in Australia jailed for six months over quarantine breach


Quote:

But the cherry on top is when you stated that China is preserving the liberties of their citizens better than the USA?

The uighars, the Hong Kong protests, and everyone locked in their house for months on end disagree.

You will not go to jail for 20 years in China for using a VPN to browse foreign news outlets, as specified under the US RESTRICT Act. Basically the gap in personal freedoms between the US and China has been closed - and then some, judging by this act alone.

You will never go to jail in China for misgendering someone, or committing a thought crime against woke dogma, unlike for instance in the UK where nearly 10,000 people have been detained for making double plus ungood posts on social media:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/arrests-for-offensive-facebook-and-twitter-posts-soar-in-london-a7064246.html

China has about 30,000 Uyghurs who fought with or are still fighting with ISIS in Syria, these people and their close contacts are what their Xinjiang reeducation camps have been built for. Conditions there are far more benign than in Guantanamo, or Abu Ghraib, Camp Bucca and the dozens of "black hole" secret prisons set up around the world where suspects are detained and tortured with no legal recourse.

Hong Kong protests have been over a long time ago, and the level of police repression and violence there was trivial compared to what peaceful protesters have been enduring for years now in France or Holland, where hundreds of people have been horribly maimed, getting shot in the face at point blank with rubber bullets. This hardly ever happened in Hong Kong, despite the protesters themselves being quite violent.


Quote:

Notice how Cal88 always sticks up for authoritarian countries over liberal democracies.

I want my liberal democracy to stay that way, we are failing on many levels, in areas where we have been the clear world leaders, and that needs to be called out and addressed.

I also don't believe in exceptionalism, because I have had the privilege of living in different countries and travelling often at an early age and speaking many languages.

If other countries like China have successfully addressed several challenges where we are failing today, such as infrastructure, industry, healthcare, education, purchasing power, we should acknowledge that rather than fall back on chauvinistic impulses.
blungld
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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

I've noticed a bunch of posts from Minot lately that just seem to be a few words randomly thrown together with no apparent meaning or relevance to the subject. I'm wondering if he's OK.
It's his RECENT posts that have you concerned and that seem randomly thrown together? Now I'm concerned about you.
oski003
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blungld said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

I've noticed a bunch of posts from Minot lately that just seem to be a few words randomly thrown together with no apparent meaning or relevance to the subject. I'm wondering if he's OK.
It's his RECENT posts that have you concerned and that seem randomly thrown together? Now I'm concerned about you.


I am concerned about Eastern Oregon Bear and blungld.
MinotStateBeav
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oski003 said:

blungld said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

I've noticed a bunch of posts from Minot lately that just seem to be a few words randomly thrown together with no apparent meaning or relevance to the subject. I'm wondering if he's OK.
It's his RECENT posts that have you concerned and that seem randomly thrown together? Now I'm concerned about you.


I am concerned about Eastern Oregon Bear and blungld.


They seem especially unhinged. Really incapable of arguing a point and instead shoot for ad hominem attacks. We sure they went to Cal? Maybe Gender Studies majors.
WalterSobchak
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MinotStateBeav said:





We sure they went to Cal?
We're sure you didn't.
Please give to Cal Legends at https://calegends.com/calegendsdonate/donate-football/ and encourage everyone you know who loves Cal sports to do it too.

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Thanks for reading my sig! Please consider copying or adapting it and using it on all of your posts too. Go Bears!
MinotStateBeav
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WalterSobchak said:

MinotStateBeav said:





We sure they went to Cal?
We're sure you didn't.


I never claimed I did though.
movielover
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Substack: Russo-Ukrainian War: Leak Biopsy
A Russian Nesting Doll of Embarrassment


By Big Serge - <snippets>

"I was originally rather agnostic about the [leaked US military] documents' authenticity, but I have come to the view that they are genuine (let's rate it a 90% likelihood of authenticity and a 10% likelihood of forgery or misinformation)...."

"An ancillary but important note at this point is the fact that, as best we can tell from these documents, Ukraine's prewar tank park is almost completely gone. Ukraine went to war with about 800 of its workhorse T-64, but the NATO combat power build notes only 43 now on hand...."

"We have known for quite some time that Ukraine is facing a critical shell shortage, but the leaked documents reveal just how acute this issue is. Ukraine's usage rate is very low right now - the report claims only 1,104 shells had been expended in the previous 24 hours - compare this to the 20,000 or so shells that the Russian army is firing on a daily basis. Even more alarming for Ukraine is the note that they have only 9,788 shells on hand...."

"One last major revelation from the leak is the greatly degraded state of Ukrainian air defense.... [the leak] "They show a conspicuous lack of alertness or long-range planning on the part of the Pentagon...."

"Rather than becoming a cheap way to drain the Russian military, NATO finds itself drawing down its own stocks to prop up the hemorrhaging Ukrainian state, with no clear endgame in sight. The proxy has become a parasite....

https://bigserge.substack.com/p/russo-ukrainian-war-leak-biopsy
movielover
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movielover
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Cal88
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movielover said:

Substack: Russo-Ukrainian War: Leak Biopsy
A Russian Nesting Doll of Embarrassment


By Big Serge - <snippets>

"I was originally rather agnostic about the [leaked US military] documents' authenticity, but I have come to the view that they are genuine (let's rate it a 90% likelihood of authenticity and a 10% likelihood of forgery or misinformation)...."

"An ancillary but important note at this point is the fact that, as best we can tell from these documents, Ukraine's prewar tank park is almost completely gone. Ukraine went to war with about 800 of its workhorse T-64, but the NATO combat power build notes only 43 now on hand...."

"We have known for quite some time that Ukraine is facing a critical shell shortage, but the leaked documents reveal just how acute this issue is. Ukraine's usage rate is very low right now - the report claims only 1,104 shells had been expended in the previous 24 hours - compare this to the 20,000 or so shells that the Russian army is firing on a daily basis. Even more alarming for Ukraine is the note that they have only 9,788 shells on hand...."

"One last major revelation from the leak is the greatly degraded state of Ukrainian air defense.... [the leak] "They show a conspicuous lack of alertness or long-range planning on the part of the Pentagon...."

"Rather than becoming a cheap way to drain the Russian military, NATO finds itself drawing down its own stocks to prop up the hemorrhaging Ukrainian state, with no clear endgame in sight. The proxy has become a parasite....

https://bigserge.substack.com/p/russo-ukrainian-war-leak-biopsy


Ukraine's war effort has been running on shells from supplies scoured by the US from around the world, they've tapped Israel, Pakistan, South Korea and possibly Morocco and Sudan. The latter countries were secret purchases. US and South Korea have a small production capacity that is covering their bare minimum requirements.

The other most acute shortage for Ukraine is their AA missiles, the documents stated that they would run out of BUK short/mid-range missiles in April, and of long-range S-300 by May. One of the main goals of the Russian long-range powerplant strikes has been to exhaust Ukrainian air defense capacity, and that was a successful strategy.

Western mid/long-range AA systems are not on the same level as Russia's, as NATO has relied on air superiority and its massive air force size advantage, and the few systems on hand, such as the Norwegian NASAMS and the very good short-range German Geppard tracked flak units have already been transferred to or used up by Ukraine. Ukraine's defense minister Resnikov flew to Greece to beg them for their S-300 missiles and launchers, to no avail, as Greece depends on these to keep Turkey at bay in their islands near Asia Minor, which the Turks claim.

Russia has been conducting a war of attrition with Ukraine, depleting their much smaller ammunition reserves and NATO's smaller production capacity. NATO should have completely overhauled its production system from day 1, they only started addressing this problem one year into the conflict, which means they can't provide for Ukraine's needs till mid or late 2024 at the earliest.

As a result of Ukraine's S-300 shortage, Russia has been stepping up its air campaign, now starting to use extensively its new precision-guided gliding 500kg and 1,500kg bombs, which it has in very large quantities. They have been taking out fuel and ammunition depots behind the frontlines, launching these gliding bombs from high altitude from 40km out. These launches are made by Su-34/35 fighter-bombers in conjunction with Mig-31s armed with HARM anti-radar systems that would take out any AA systems left in Ukraine's inventory used to target the Sukhois, or the gliding bombs themselves.

Ukraine is therefore in a conundrum, forced to start its Spring offensive as soon as possible because the Russians are depleting their resources with these weapons, yet Ukraine might not have all the equipment they need to conduct that offensive. As well, any deeper Ukrainian penetration into the Russian lines would be subject to aerial bombings, so they have to marshal their remaining AA systems as part of this offensive. So the Russians are probably tracking these AA systems very carefully, they will know where Ukraine wants to focus its attack by the positions of these few dozen remaining BUKs and S-300s, which have been high-priority Russian targets since day 1 of the war.
Cal88
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oski003
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I figured the Ukrainian proxy war intel documents were found in Hunter Biden's garage, but the source may indeed be somewhere else...

https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/11/politics/investigations-pentagon-leaked-documents-justice-department/index.html
movielover
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Confirmation.
movielover
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The BBC has confirmed that UK and US special forces are working inside Ukraine.
movielover
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Unit2Sucks
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Putin is prosecuting a historian for opposing the war. He is expected to receive 25 years in prison for giving a speech in Arizona denouncing the war. He has previously been poisoned twice by Putin but I guess they opted for a show trial this time.

Remember - the only reason that Russia isn't "the most corrupt country in Europe" is because Russia isn't in Europe. As corrupt as Ukraine has been, Russia has been and will continue to be far worse. There is no anti-corruption effort in Russia and never will be as long as Putin, the steward of corruption, remains in charge.

Here's the critic's address to the court:

Quote:

Ahead of a verdict expected next week, outspoken Kremlin critic Vladimir Kara-Murza, who has been put on trial for treason in Moscow for his outspoken anti-war comments, gave the following address to the court on Monday.

I was sure that after two decades in Russian politics, with all that I have seen and experienced, nothing could still surprise me. I have to admit that I was wrong. I've been surprised by the fact that my trial in 2023 surpassed even the "trials" of Soviet dissidents in the 1960s and 70s in its secrecy and disdain for legal norms, and that's without even mentioning the harshness of the sentence requested by the prosecution or the use of terms such as "enemy of the state." My trial had less in common with the 1970s it was a return to the 1930s. As a historian, I find this something worthy of reflection.

At one point during my testimony, the presiding judge reminded me that "remorse for the deed committed" could be considered an extenuating circumstance. Though there's little amusing about my present predicament, I couldn't help but smile. Criminals are expected to show remorse for their actions, but I'm in prison for my political views. For speaking out against the war in Ukraine. For fighting Putin's dictatorship for years. For enabling the adoption of personal sanctions against human rights violators under the "Magnitsky Act."

Not only do I not repent of any of this, I'm proud of it. I'm proud of the fact that Boris Nemtsov brought me into politics and I hope he isn't ashamed of me. I stand by every word I've ever uttered and by every word this court accuses me of saying. I only blame myself for one thing: for failing to convince enough of my compatriots and politicians in democratic countries of the danger that the current Kremlin regime poses to Russia and to the world. Today it is obvious to everyone, but at a terrible price the price of war.

In their closing statements, defendants usually ask the court to acquit them. For a person who did not commit a crime, the only fair verdict would be an acquittal. But I ask nothing of this court. I know its verdict. I knew it a year ago when I saw people in black uniforms and black masks running after my car in the rearview mirror. This is the price of not remaining silent in Russia today.

But I also know that the day will come when the darkness over our country will dissipate. When black will be called black and white will be called white. When it will officially be recognized that two times two is four, when the war will be called a war and the usurper a usurper, and when those who began it rather than those who tried to prevent it will be seen as criminals.

As inevitably as spring follows even the harshest winter, that day will come. And when it does, our society will open its eyes and be horrified to discover the terrible crimes that have been committed in its name. From this realization, the long, difficult, but vital path toward recovery, Russia's restoration, and its return to the community of civilized nations will begin.

Even today, even in the darkness around us, even sitting in this cage, I love my country and I believe in our people. I believe that we can walk this path.
Fortunately the Russia cheerleaders in this thread are at no such risk because they would never dare criticize Putin or the Russian military effort lol.
Cal88
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^ Thankfully, I'm not at risk of a 25-year sentence in Russia, I'm only at risk of a 20-year sentence in the US for misusing a VPN.
movielover
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So Nazified Ukraine isn't corrupt?

Isn't that why so many DC grifters get "consulting" jobs there?
dajo9
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Cal88 said:

^ Thankfully, I'm not at risk of a 25-year sentence in Russia, I'm only at risk of a 20-year sentence in the US for misusing a VPN.
Enlighten us. What are you doing that you fear will result in a prison sentence for you? As I've said. I use a VPN. I have no such worries.
oski003
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dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

^ Thankfully, I'm not at risk of a 25-year sentence in Russia, I'm only at risk of a 20-year sentence in the US for misusing a VPN.
Enlighten us. What are you doing that you fear will result in a prison sentence for you? As I've said. I use a VPN. I have no such worries.


He refers to this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wwltv.com/amp/article/news/verify/technology-verify/would-restrict-act-make-it-illegal-use-vpn-access-restricted-sites-apps-tiktok-fact-check/536-acbcbd32-2611-412b-be2a-bbd758b70ee3

Btw, I salute you patriots for basically ignoring the intelligence leak that validated much of what ML and Cal88 had said. Beautiful transition to Russia jailing a dissident. The war hawks give praise. To the last Ukranian.
dajo9
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oski003 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

^ Thankfully, I'm not at risk of a 25-year sentence in Russia, I'm only at risk of a 20-year sentence in the US for misusing a VPN.
Enlighten us. What are you doing that you fear will result in a prison sentence for you? As I've said. I use a VPN. I have no such worries.


He refers to this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wwltv.com/amp/article/news/verify/technology-verify/would-restrict-act-make-it-illegal-use-vpn-access-restricted-sites-apps-tiktok-fact-check/536-acbcbd32-2611-412b-be2a-bbd758b70ee3

Btw, I salute you patriots for basically ignoring the intelligence leak that validated much of what ML and Cal88 had said. Beautiful transition to Russia jailing a dissident. The war hawks give praise. To the last Ukranian.
I know what he is referring to. I'd like to know what activity he is engaged in that will cause him to be put in prison. Is his tiktok addiction that strong that if it is banned he will be determined to use a VPN and access it - or is it something else?
oski003
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dajo9 said:

oski003 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

^ Thankfully, I'm not at risk of a 25-year sentence in Russia, I'm only at risk of a 20-year sentence in the US for misusing a VPN.
Enlighten us. What are you doing that you fear will result in a prison sentence for you? As I've said. I use a VPN. I have no such worries.


He refers to this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wwltv.com/amp/article/news/verify/technology-verify/would-restrict-act-make-it-illegal-use-vpn-access-restricted-sites-apps-tiktok-fact-check/536-acbcbd32-2611-412b-be2a-bbd758b70ee3

Btw, I salute you patriots for basically ignoring the intelligence leak that validated much of what ML and Cal88 had said. Beautiful transition to Russia jailing a dissident. The war hawks give praise. To the last Ukranian.
I know what he is referring to. I'd like to know what activity he is engaged in that will cause him to be put in prison. Is his tiktok addiction that strong that if it is banned he will be determined to use a VPN and access it - or is it something else?
He previously mentioned reading foreign news sources that are blocked in the US. You can start by asking about that. the UK blocks Russian media. I believe the US hides it but does not outright block it.
dajo9
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oski003 said:

dajo9 said:

oski003 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

^ Thankfully, I'm not at risk of a 25-year sentence in Russia, I'm only at risk of a 20-year sentence in the US for misusing a VPN.
Enlighten us. What are you doing that you fear will result in a prison sentence for you? As I've said. I use a VPN. I have no such worries.


He refers to this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wwltv.com/amp/article/news/verify/technology-verify/would-restrict-act-make-it-illegal-use-vpn-access-restricted-sites-apps-tiktok-fact-check/536-acbcbd32-2611-412b-be2a-bbd758b70ee3

Btw, I salute you patriots for basically ignoring the intelligence leak that validated much of what ML and Cal88 had said. Beautiful transition to Russia jailing a dissident. The war hawks give praise. To the last Ukranian.
I know what he is referring to. I'd like to know what activity he is engaged in that will cause him to be put in prison. Is his tiktok addiction that strong that if it is banned he will be determined to use a VPN and access it - or is it something else?
He previously mentioned reading foreign news sources that are blocked in the US. You can start by asking about that. the UK blocks Russian media. I believe the US hides it but does not outright block it.
Translated:

Cal88 is worried about losing access to his propaganda
sycasey
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oski003 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

^ Thankfully, I'm not at risk of a 25-year sentence in Russia, I'm only at risk of a 20-year sentence in the US for misusing a VPN.
Enlighten us. What are you doing that you fear will result in a prison sentence for you? As I've said. I use a VPN. I have no such worries.


He refers to this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wwltv.com/amp/article/news/verify/technology-verify/would-restrict-act-make-it-illegal-use-vpn-access-restricted-sites-apps-tiktok-fact-check/536-acbcbd32-2611-412b-be2a-bbd758b70ee3

Btw, I salute you patriots for basically ignoring the intelligence leak that validated much of what ML and Cal88 had said. Beautiful transition to Russia jailing a dissident. The war hawks give praise. To the last Ukranian.
Wait, he's talking about a proposed bill that is not actually law in the US and comparing it to actual prosecution currently happening in Russia?

Holy false equivalence, Batman!
oski003
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sycasey said:

oski003 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

^ Thankfully, I'm not at risk of a 25-year sentence in Russia, I'm only at risk of a 20-year sentence in the US for misusing a VPN.
Enlighten us. What are you doing that you fear will result in a prison sentence for you? As I've said. I use a VPN. I have no such worries.


He refers to this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wwltv.com/amp/article/news/verify/technology-verify/would-restrict-act-make-it-illegal-use-vpn-access-restricted-sites-apps-tiktok-fact-check/536-acbcbd32-2611-412b-be2a-bbd758b70ee3

Btw, I salute you patriots for basically ignoring the intelligence leak that validated much of what ML and Cal88 had said. Beautiful transition to Russia jailing a dissident. The war hawks give praise. To the last Ukranian.
Wait, he's talking about a proposed bill that is not actually law in the US and comparing it to actual prosecution currently happening in Russia?

Holy false equivalence, Batman!


Apparently so. I would rather be censored and ridiculed by the US government controlled press than jailed by Russia. America, **** yeah!
Cal88
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What bill is Julian Assange being in jail for?
dajo9
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Cal88 said:

What bill is Julian Assange being in jail for?


I believe it's the Espionage Act. Are you worried about prison for that crime also?
sycasey
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oski003 said:

Btw, I salute you patriots for basically ignoring the intelligence leak that validated much of what ML and Cal88 had said.

What exactly has been validated in this intelligence leak? That the US and other countries have small numbers of special-forces people in Ukraine? I already knew that. We'd been helping and training the Ukrainian military (at their request) for years since the Crimea invasion.
Cal88
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sycasey said:

oski003 said:

Btw, I salute you patriots for basically ignoring the intelligence leak that validated much of what ML and Cal88 had said.

What exactly has been validated in this intelligence leak? That the US and other countries have small numbers of special-forces people in Ukraine? I already knew that. We'd been helping and training the Ukrainian military (at their request) for years since the Crimea invasion.

Among other items, the ratio of killed in action, of over 4 to 1 in favor of Russia (though that it most likely an undercount), the alarming level of equipment and ammunition shortage for Ukraine, which validates the Russian military strategy of a war of attrition.

edit: apparently the overall KIA posted in one of these documents might be 7 to 1, which is more in line with earlier reports and sources that I've covered in this thread, like MacGregor's, who has had access to this insider info since day 1.

I think this is the most important aspect of this war, one that has been hidden from the general public, until now. It presents the real picture of this war, which is a lot closer to a one-sided bloodbath.

It also shows how badly the military brass currently handling this war have been lying to the public - shades of Vietnam and general Westmoreland (or Afghanistan for that matter, where we were always on the verge of finishing the job, right up to the hours before the Saigon rooftop-style pullout).

Ukraine does not have a military solution, we should work for a negotiated settlement between NATO, Ukraine and Russia instead of pursuing this bloodbath and pushing Ukraine to fight to the last Ukrainian. The sooner, the better,
sycasey
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Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

oski003 said:

Btw, I salute you patriots for basically ignoring the intelligence leak that validated much of what ML and Cal88 had said.

What exactly has been validated in this intelligence leak? That the US and other countries have small numbers of special-forces people in Ukraine? I already knew that. We'd been helping and training the Ukrainian military (at their request) for years since the Crimea invasion.

Among other items, the ratio of killed in action, of over 4 to 1 in favor of Russia (though that it most likely an undercount), the alarming level of equipment and ammunition shortage for Ukraine, which validates the Russian military strategy of a war of attrition.

edit: apparently the overall KIA posted in one of these documents might be 7 to 1, which is more in line with earlier reports and sources that I've covered in this thread, like MacGregor's, who has had access to this insider info since day 1.
You mean the real documents or the ones that have possibly been altered by Russian propagandists?

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/06/us/politics/ukraine-war-plan-russia.html
Quote:

The analysts warned that documents released by Russian sources could be selectively altered to present the Kremlin's disinformation.

"Whether these documents are authentic or not, people should take care with anything released by Russian sources," said Michael Kofman, the director of Russian studies at CNA, a research institute in Arlington, Va.

For example, one of the slides said 16,000 to 17,500 Russian soldiers had been killed while Ukraine had suffered as many as 71,500 troop deaths. The Pentagon and other analysts have estimated that Russia has suffered far more casualties, with closer to 200,000 killed and injured, while Ukraine has had more than 100,000 killed and injured.

Cal88
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sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

oski003 said:

Btw, I salute you patriots for basically ignoring the intelligence leak that validated much of what ML and Cal88 had said.

What exactly has been validated in this intelligence leak? That the US and other countries have small numbers of special-forces people in Ukraine? I already knew that. We'd been helping and training the Ukrainian military (at their request) for years since the Crimea invasion.

Among other items, the ratio of killed in action, of over 4 to 1 in favor of Russia (though that it most likely an undercount), the alarming level of equipment and ammunition shortage for Ukraine, which validates the Russian military strategy of a war of attrition.

edit: apparently the overall KIA posted in one of these documents might be 7 to 1, which is more in line with earlier reports and sources that I've covered in this thread, like MacGregor's, who has had access to this insider info since day 1.
You mean the real documents or the ones that have possibly been altered by Russian propagandists?

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/06/us/politics/ukraine-war-plan-russia.html
Quote:

The analysts warned that documents released by Russian sources could be selectively altered to present the Kremlin's disinformation.

"Whether these documents are authentic or not, people should take care with anything released by Russian sources," said Michael Kofman, the director of Russian studies at CNA, a research institute in Arlington, Va.

For example, one of the slides said 16,000 to 17,500 Russian soldiers had been killed while Ukraine had suffered as many as 71,500 troop deaths. The Pentagon and other analysts have estimated that Russia has suffered far more casualties, with closer to 200,000 killed and injured, while Ukraine has had more than 100,000 killed and injured.


Of course "the Pentagon and other analysts" would never lie to you.

These documents were leaked to the media by an insider, an American officer or high-level intel bureaucrat with top secret clearance, and not by "Russian sources". Hardcore ideologues like Kofman who have successfully gaslighted the public on this war know this, and are doubling down and circling their wagons here.
sycasey
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Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

oski003 said:

Btw, I salute you patriots for basically ignoring the intelligence leak that validated much of what ML and Cal88 had said.

What exactly has been validated in this intelligence leak? That the US and other countries have small numbers of special-forces people in Ukraine? I already knew that. We'd been helping and training the Ukrainian military (at their request) for years since the Crimea invasion.

Among other items, the ratio of killed in action, of over 4 to 1 in favor of Russia (though that it most likely an undercount), the alarming level of equipment and ammunition shortage for Ukraine, which validates the Russian military strategy of a war of attrition.

edit: apparently the overall KIA posted in one of these documents might be 7 to 1, which is more in line with earlier reports and sources that I've covered in this thread, like MacGregor's, who has had access to this insider info since day 1.
You mean the real documents or the ones that have possibly been altered by Russian propagandists?

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/06/us/politics/ukraine-war-plan-russia.html
Quote:

The analysts warned that documents released by Russian sources could be selectively altered to present the Kremlin's disinformation.

"Whether these documents are authentic or not, people should take care with anything released by Russian sources," said Michael Kofman, the director of Russian studies at CNA, a research institute in Arlington, Va.

For example, one of the slides said 16,000 to 17,500 Russian soldiers had been killed while Ukraine had suffered as many as 71,500 troop deaths. The Pentagon and other analysts have estimated that Russia has suffered far more casualties, with closer to 200,000 killed and injured, while Ukraine has had more than 100,000 killed and injured.


Of course "the Pentagon and other analysts" would never lie to you.
Yes, and random unverified Twitter accounts certainly never would either!

Seriously though, if Ukraine were really losing troops at a 4-to-1 or 7-to-1 rate greater than Russia, then Russia should be doing a lot better in the war by now. Heck, they should have already won. I'm extremely skeptical of these claims.
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