My best advice for Prigozhin: Don't buy any green bananas.

I'm not sure I would consider Patton a military genius. He copied Rommels tactics. In fact he saw the might of the USA was in our manufacturing capacity and okay'd the tank to zerg rush Germany at the time. The m4 sherman wasn't amazing stand alone tank. It was medium armored light weight made tank mold so we could kick out thousands in no time. The germans couldn't destroy more than we could make and we could ship a TON over to Europe. But Prigozhin understood that like Patton being amongst the men carried immense value that other Russian generals didn't understand, thus they were 200km behind the front lines in safety.

It was the Brits who started toying with the sherman and making changes to it on their own like adding the 17 pounder gun(it could penetrate the tiger and panther) or the various attachments to make them tractors or mine clearance vehicles.(no reason to add this here, just thought it was interesting tidbit of knowledge lol)

Except for widespread evidence that President Trump is the first president in decades to fight for the lost middle class.

Still falling for the old tax cuts for the rich gag, I see

dajo9 said:

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Still falling for the old tax cuts for the rich gag, I see

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We can agree to disagree. But the facts are numerous.

- 10 years of funding for HBCU
- prison reform / First Step Act (the genius Obama had 8 years and never accomplished either one)
- Right to Try Bill
- massive China tariffs
- 500 miles of 30' border walls
- record female, Black, Latino, Asian employment
- booming Arizona silicon manufacturing
- over a dozen steel and aluminum plants expanded / upgraded
- USMCA
- cut tens of thousands of job-killing regulations

Biden did his part for US industry though, by blowing up Nordstream. A lot of German and European manufacturers will be moving operations abroad now, including to the US...

Those record employment numbers have been bested by Biden.

-Trump tried to eliminate healthcare for millions of working Americans but Democrats stopped him.
-Trump tried to cut benefits for millions of Americans with disabilities but Democrats stopped him
-Among those regulations, Trump made it harder for workers to challenge wage theft
-Forced workers into mandatory arbitration and out of the court system
-Removed workers from labor protections by allowing them to be classified as independent contractors
-Trump supported for profit colleges ripping off students (in fact Trump owned one)

dajo9 said:

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Those record employment numbers have been bested by Biden.

-Trump tried to eliminate healthcare for millions of working Americans but Democrats stopped him.
-Trump tried to cut benefits for millions of Americans with disabilities but Democrats stopped him
-Among those regulations, Trump made it harder for workers to challenge wage theft
-Forced workers into mandatory arbitration and out of the court system
-Removed workers from labor protections by allowing them to be classified as independent contractors
-Trump supported for profit colleges ripping off students (in fact Trump owned one)

---

Those numbers have been aided by about 300,000 per year excess deaths, likely killed by the Covid vaccines, 2021 and 2022. A standard deviation of 3 is considered a once in 200-year occurrence; the 300,000 excess deaths are a standard deviation of 13. These excess deaths are primarily in working age, healthy, 30-60 year old, Fortune 5000 employed individuals... who were required to get the untested multi-shot clot shot. Medium- and long-term consequences unknown.

Disability claims also way up, and white supremacist baby boomers retiring.

Also, the Biden silicon manufacturing boom in Arizona was much bigger than Trump's

Apparently the New York Post didn't get the memo that the people who quote the NYP as their Number 1 source supporting their arguments are also Putin fanboys.

Putin is on his way out, but things could go from Vlad to worse


https://nypost.com/2023/06/24/putin-is-on-his-way-out-but-things-could-go-from-vlad-to-worse/

10% For The Big Guy said:

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Condolences to the pro-war pro-insurrection neocon Democrats on this forum

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My condolences to all of the Trumpanzees that live in DENIAL that their Mango Messiah didnt possess classified documents on a war plan on Iran, and wasnt bragging about it in a taped recording at his Bedminster, New Jersey golf club in July of 2021.

R.I.P. Kool-Aid Drinkers

DiabloWags said:

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sycasey said:

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Could have been worse, but I don't think you can say NO bloodshed. Didn't Wagner down a bunch of aircraft, presumably with pilots/crew in them?

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Yes.

A total of 6 Russian Army Helos and 1 plane on June 24th, according to a Ukrainian Air Force spokesman.

The Russian pro-Kremlin military bloggers reported on June 24 that the Wagner troops downed one Ka-52 attack helicopter, one Mi-8 transport helicopter, three Mi-8 electronic warfare helicopters, one Mi-35 attack helicopter, and one Il-18 aircraft.

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Propagandists don't yet have their marching orders so they are just engaging in their usual mass distraction until their discord servers fire up an official story to pretend that this insurrection was a good thing for Putin and their beloved war in Ukraine.

- Barges into Rostov
- Trash talks the entire russian MOD including Putin
- Sends a convoy towards moscow
- Downs 7 russian aircraft, killing at least 13 russian pilots
- Refuses to elaborate further
- Leaves pic.twitter.com/8oZtA4uzGI

— Churcheebs (@Churcheebs) June 24, 2023

What they fear but won't say:

Russians joke:

"All that we found out today is that if, God forbid, NATO attacks us, the most we'll be able to do is to dig out the asphalt and call Lukashenko" pic.twitter.com/aQZmORPIXS

— Anton Gerashchenko (@Gerashchenko_en) June 25, 2023

What they say because they fear the truth or consequences of truth:

"They didn't hurt anyone, they didn't break anything. No one has the slightest claim to them - neither the Rostov resudents nor the military personnel of the Southern Military District and the law enforcement. So what are their questions? There are no complaints against them." 2/

— Giorgi Revishvili (@revishvilig) June 25, 2023

patrushev is on it already.

putin always had anyone even only slightly critical of him murdered... he is not gonna forgive Prigozhin making him look weak. https://t.co/YlLgwp01sP

— Thomas C. Theiner (@noclador) June 25, 2023

Why they should be concerned about the sh(thole country they lie for:

Of course the US knew beforehand.
Since the Pentagon leaks we know that the NSA has tapped all the phones of Wagner's leadership.

Meanwhile russia's FSB was completely in the dark about Prigozhin's intentions.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ https://t.co/7hCll4o3H6

— Thomas C. Theiner (@noclador) June 25, 2023

(Read the thread - it may not show up for you here properly because Twitter has labeled this sensitive content, perhaps as part of its attempt to squirrel Noclador's content)

• 3rd Motor Rifle Division in Boguchar
• 106th Airborne Division in Tula

and no one from the two regime-protecting divisions in moscow showed up to prepare defenses against Wagner:
• 2nd Guards Motor Rifle Division
• 4th Guards Tank Division

Most of these divisions'
2/4

— Thomas C. Theiner (@noclador) June 25, 2023

And finally another reminder that all the artillery in the world is less useful in winning a military conflict if you have no functioning command and control or accuracy. It's still helpful in destroying a country which is and has always been a goal of Putin's for Ukraine.

Garbage russian gun stabilisation + crap russian optics = 80% of fired rounds miss the Ukrainian positions.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ https://t.co/5u9YSM9WcO

— Thomas C. Theiner (@noclador) June 25, 2023

^Given the insane volume the Russians have been using, an 80% miss rate looks pretty good.

The Russians have destroyed 260 Ukrainian tanks this month alone, and about 3 times as many IFVs, AFVs and other vehicles. They've destroyed over 10,000 armored vehicles since the beginning of the war, according to Macgregor,

Quote:

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Why they should be concerned about the sh(thole country they lie for

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What makes Russia a "sh(thole country" ? It was indeed in terrible shape in the 90s, but today it's doing fairly well, with their social and economic situation constantly improving. Its poverty rate, child mortality, are now lower than in the US, its alcoholism and homicide rate constantly dropping. Its big cities are now cleaner and safer than the average European big city.

Their cultural heritage is incredibly rich, and their people went through a horrendously difficult century through bolshevism, communism, got the brunt of nazi Germany's war machine, and then suffered through a horrendously difficult decade under oligarch cronyism in the 90s.

Do you just hate Russia, Russians, and Russian culture in general? Is that a prerequisite for being a good American, because I wasn't asked that before I got naturalized. Do you feel you have to put down other cultures in order to feel good about yourself? Do you need to have an evil enemy at all times to validate your feelings of moral superiority and exceptionalism?

movielover said:

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Except for widespread evidence that President Trump is the first president in decades to fight for the lost middle class.

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Even you had to laugh at that.

movielover said:

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😬😬😬 pic.twitter.com/BeJMwpTXnT

— Trollstoy (@Trollstoy88) June 25, 2023

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Putin no longer qualifies as a "peacetime leader" and it's his own fault. He's not looking so competent lately.

Why in the world do people defend this guy?

Big C said:

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Putin no longer qualifies as a "peacetime leader" and it's his own fault. He's not looking so competent lately.

Why in the world do people defend this guy?

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Variety of reasons - some are paid, some are radicalized and some are just incredibly gullible.

Putin has taken advantage of Russia during a very opportune time post-collapse of the Soviet Union and the early frenetic period of the "democracy" and used it to amass almost unchecked power and wealth (some suggest he's managed to sequester almost $200B in wealth from the backs of the Russian people).

But his grip on power is loosening and this disastrous war isn't the boost to his power that he hoped for.

Here's a great thread from a prominent Russian (who also happens to have become a phenomenally successful founder and executive after fleeing with his family to the US in the 90's).

My thoughts on the implications of Prigozhin's mutiny this weekend: 🧵

First, what have we learned from this?

— Dmitri Alperovitch (@DAlperovitch) June 25, 2023

Rather than link to each tweet, here's the full unroll.

And just to reiterate, lots of questions remain. Of course, the fools who think that this augurs well for Putin and Russia's future and the future of their war haven't begun to consider this because they await their marching orders, either directly or indirectly through the tools of wartime propaganda (not all of whom are named as transparently as Trollstoy).

Within the general fog of war, we are very much still deeply within the fog of the Prigozhin Putsch. The dude was the most prominent military person in Russia and he claimed quite loudly that the entire predicate for the war in Ukraine was a fraud on the people of Russia and that it was the product of vast corruption. He also claimed that the MOD attacked his troops (all of whom are Russians and fighting for Russia) and then he shot down 7 Russian aircraft killing at least a dozen pilots. This is wild stuff and to think that this was just wrapped up in a bow by a 15 minute call with Lukashenko is to stretch credulity quite too far.

Who will pay Prigozhin now?

Prigozhin's private army existed thanks to Putin's dirty money.

For the money from selling oil, gas, timber, metals, gold and other resources of Russia to the West and to the East.

Yesterday, Russian media reported that during searches in the…

— Anton Gerashchenko (@Gerashchenko_en) June 25, 2023

To belabor the point, here's a great article spelling out what happened and why it is in fact not good for Putin.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/06/25/mutiny-bodes-ill-for-putin-00103571

Quote:

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Coups are a tricky thing for an authoritarian. Address the nation too quickly and you are deemed panicked. Wait longer and you come over as indecisive. Putin waited 24 hours. It is now clear why: Once you call it "treason" and threaten the mutineers with "tough" and "imminent" punishment, you'd better follow through. Putin likely hesitated because he doubted that his forces would follow those kinds of orders and he could look impotent as a result.

He was right. Regular troops appear to have melted away before the advancing Wagner forces. There was no resistance even in Rostov-on-Don, the headquarters of the Southern Military District. Apart from a few helicopter gunships, shot down by Wagner, no one attacked the "muzykanty," or "musicians," as the Wagnerites like to call themselves. Where were the bomber and jet fighter pilots, who could have pummeled the advancing columns from on high as they marched from the Ukrainian border to Rostov-on-Don?

Even more significant in the long run was the reaction of the people. Coups and revolutions are decided not by how many storm the palaces but by how many come to defend them. Indifference helps the plotters. The last line in Pushkin's tragedy Boris Godunov encapsulates a key condition of a successful rebellion: "Narod bezmolvstvuet." The people are silent.

In fact, things turned out even more dire than that for Putin. The residents of Rostov were worse than silent. Instead of deploring the Wagner takeover, they appeared in videos welcoming Prigozhin's "musicians." Instead of waving portraits of Putin and Russian flags, they brought the insurgents water and candy.

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Big C said:

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Putin no longer qualifies as a "peacetime leader" and it's his own fault. He's not looking so competent lately.

Why in the world do people defend this guy?

---

According to many expert geopoliticians like Mearsheimer, NATO created the conditions which made the Ukraine war inevitable. The US, Germany and France scuttled the Minsk Agreements, which provided a peaceful resolution to the Donbass civil war.

Other geopolitical experts who have shaped modern US foreign policy advocated using Ukraine to weaken and eventually dismantle Russia as a nation-state, including Zbignew Brzezinski, the Rand Foundation and the recently formed NATO-backed Helsinki Commission.

Then you have the neocons and the Wolfowitz Doctrine, which advocates suppressing any foreign power that could rise to superpower potential in order to preserve the US status as the sole global hegemon. That is the political doctrine that has been ruling US foreign policy since Dubya took over, even through the Obama and now Biden tenure.

These neocons, led by people like Nuland, Bolton, Pompeo et al have set up the clash with Russia, using Ukraine as a proxy.

That, in a nutshell, is the answer to why there is a major war in Ukraine.

Cal88 said:

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Big C said:

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Putin no longer qualifies as a "peacetime leader" and it's his own fault. He's not looking so competent lately.

Why in the world do people defend this guy?

---

According to many expert geopoliticians like Mearsheimer, NATO created the conditions which made the Ukraine war inevitable. The US, Germany and France scuttled the Minsk Agreements, which provided a peaceful resolution to the Donbass civil war.

Other geopolitical experts who have shaped modern US foreign policy advocated using Ukraine to weaken and eventually dismantle Russia as a nation-state, including Zbignew Brzezinski, the Rand Foundation and the recently formed NATO-backed Helsinki Commission.

Then you have the neocons and the Wolfowitz Doctrine, which advocates suppressing any foreign power that could rise to superpower potential in order to preserve the US status as the sole global hegemon. That is the political doctrine that has been ruling US foreign policy since Dubya took over, even through the Obama and now Biden tenure.

These neocons, led by people like Nuland, Bolton, Pompeo et al have set up the clash with Russia, using Ukraine as a proxy.

That, in a nutshell, is the answer to why there is a major war in Ukraine.

---

As you probably know by now, I agree with you that talk of Ukraine joining NATO was an unnecessary provocation. Should've just stopped at Poland. However, it didn't make the war inevitable. just more likely.

I mean, do I have to quote sycasey here?

Senor Colonel Douglass McGregor on the alleged coup.

The Hill: RFK Jr. says Russia 'acting in good faith' in Ukraine invasion, US in part to blame for war

"Kennedy said in an interview on SiriusXM's "The Briefing with Steve Scully" that Russian President Vladimir Putin has "repeatedly said yes" to negotiations."

""In fact, he negotiated, two times he agreed to agreements," Kennedy said. "He agreed to the Minsk Accord, and then he agreed in 2022 to an agreement that would've left Ukraine completely intact."

"... "It was us who forced [Ukrainian President Volodymyr] Zelensky to sabotage that agreement. It was already signed," Kennedy claimed. "So, you know, the Russians were acting in good faith. … So, no, I think we're the ones who have not been acting in good faith."

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4063124-rfj-jr-says-russia-acting-in-good-faith-in-ukraine-invasion-us-in-part-to-blame-for-war/

Big C said:

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Cal88 said:

---

Big C said:

---

Putin no longer qualifies as a "peacetime leader" and it's his own fault. He's not looking so competent lately.

Why in the world do people defend this guy?

---

According to many expert geopoliticians like Mearsheimer, NATO created the conditions which made the Ukraine war inevitable. The US, Germany and France scuttled the Minsk Agreements, which provided a peaceful resolution to the Donbass civil war.

Other geopolitical experts who have shaped modern US foreign policy advocated using Ukraine to weaken and eventually dismantle Russia as a nation-state, including Zbignew Brzezinski, the Rand Foundation and the recently formed NATO-backed Helsinki Commission.

Then you have the neocons and the Wolfowitz Doctrine, which advocates suppressing any foreign power that could rise to superpower potential in order to preserve the US status as the sole global hegemon. That is the political doctrine that has been ruling US foreign policy since Dubya took over, even through the Obama and now Biden tenure.

These neocons, led by people like Nuland, Bolton, Pompeo et al have set up the clash with Russia, using Ukraine as a proxy.

That, in a nutshell, is the answer to why there is a major war in Ukraine.

---

As you probably know by now, I agree with you that talk of Ukraine joining NATO was an unnecessary provocation. Should've just stopped at Poland. However, it didn't make the war inevitable. just more likely.

I mean, do I have to quote sycasey here?

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Russia could have always just . . . not invaded. They would have saved themselves all this trouble.

Unit2Sucks said:

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Big C said:

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Putin no longer qualifies as a "peacetime leader" and it's his own fault. He's not looking so competent lately.

Why in the world do people defend this guy?

---

Variety of reasons - some are paid, some are radicalized and some are just incredibly gullible.

---

Weirdos on the right wing are under the impression that a fascistic strongman like Putin is the person who will reveal the rot and decadence of the West, in particular all the things conservatives don't like: gays, trans people, women in the workplace (especially the military), racial integration, etc. That notion should have been put to rest by the absolute s***show we are seeing when the supposedly "strong" Russia tries to attack a nation half its size. But I'm sure these weirdos will soldier on with their dumb arguments anyway.

Weirdos on the left wing just see everything through a prism of "America bad." Since the United States is the most powerful nation and therefore the power that must be opposed, they bend and twist every bad thing into being the fault of American foreign policy, even if it doesn't actually make sense to blame the US (like for the Ukraine invasion). These people also don't think very hard about anything.

That these two sides come together to take the side of Vladimir f***ing Putin is the dumbest possible result of Horseshoe Theory.