The Official Russian Invasion of Ukraine Thread

941,919 Views | 10279 Replies | Last: 8 hrs ago by Eastern Oregon Bear
Cal88
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bearister said:

What 'Putin Wing' Ex-Colonel Douglas Macgregor Has Said About Ukraine War


https://www.newsweek.com/what-putin-wing-ex-colonel-douglas-macgregor-has-said-about-ukraine-war-1689802

Statements made by the General prior to 3/20/22:

"If they don't surrender in the next 24 hours, I suspect Russia will ultimately annihilate them."

"The first five days Russian forces I think frankly were too gentle."

"The war is really over for the Ukrainians...they have been grounded to bits."


On the Russians being too gentle, they didn't use the American model of shock and awe, bombing Baghdad to bits on day 1, or carpet-bombing rebel cities like Fallujah, Mosul or Raqqa. The ratio of civilians to military killed in the Ukraine war has been quite low, less than 10%, vs maybe 80%-90% in the American-led wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. That is MacGregor's frame of reference here.

On the war being over for Ukraine, the outcome is pretty much settled already. It is only a question of how many more tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands more Ukrainian soldiers will have to be sacrificed for Ukraine to come to the negotiating table.
Cal88
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8 Ukrainian soldiers manage to end their war:



bearister
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Yes, the Russians are fighting with handcuffs on like the U.S. did when Russia was on the other side of conflicts.

As I said, I will continue to include Al Jazeera as one of my sources in my attempt to find the truth of how the respective sides are doing.

I do find it odd, however, that an American general would appear on RT for an interview (and be paid as well, I presume). I would be interested to know the names of other American generals that have granted interviews to RT. RT is not one of the sources I turn to in my quest to discern the truth.

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Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Cal88
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^ So you only trust the generals paid by Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, like Lloyd Austin or Petraeus?

I doubt MacGregor got paid by RT.
bearister
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I'm pretty sure those polarized positions are not my only choices. I research everyone's background before I decide what weight to give their words.

What is your opinion of Michael Flynn's credibility?

I would say MacGregor has a few head scratching items in his back story. Is everything he says wrong? No…..but that is too low a bar for me.
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
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Cal88
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I haven't heard from Flynn in ages, I don't watch Fox, so I'm not sure about him.

MacGregor has been the subject of smears because he doesn't toe the official line, he's anti-war, Newsweek smears him with the "Putin wing" label, and mischaracterizes his quotes, which have actually been correct by and large, including his predictions that the economic sanctions on Russia have been ineffective.

Newsweek and other MSM outlets don't have anywhere near the same type of scrutiny towards other media generals like Petraeus, who predicted one month ago that Ukraine's counteroffensive would smash through Russian lines somehow, because they now have NATO weapons and training.
Unit2Sucks
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LOL if anyone is still pretending the antisemitic MacDoofus has any credibility. He has been a basis for Russian propaganda since before the war and has had some of the worst takes imaginable.

I guess to be fair he has competition from that pedophile that the shills like to listen to.



In the real world, this war continues to be a disaster for Putin and Russia. There is no world in which Russia ends the war stronger than it started.

The only benefit will be that it has less competition from Ukraine in competitive markets, but many of those markets will be hostile to Russia for years.



On top of that, they pretend like this whole thing was to prevent NATO from being at Russia's doorstep, but make no mistake, this war ends with Russia surrounded by NATO. It wasn't long ago (June?) that Putin and his shills were crowing about support from Erdogan and Turkey (with respect to the Wagner uprising) as if it signaled some support for this criminal invasion. It turns out that the EU and the West have far more to offer Erdogan and he is going to be providing significant support for Ukraine in its defense efforts. Just another L for Putin that won't go acknowledged by the untrustworthy people who pretend that they know what's going on.



Do y'all remember how the usual suspects used to brag about the strength of the Russian ruble? Yep, it's down 30% over the past year and Russia has admitted that it's a result of the cost of this stupid war. Sanctions no doubt play a part as well.



And then you have to factor in the disastrous human capital consequences for a country already struggling demographically. This war has only accelerated the brain drain and try as it might to kidnap Ukrainian children, in addition to being a heinous and reprehensible war crime, that isn't a long term solution.

Quote:

According to one estimate, more than 1.3 million Russians under age 35 left the Russian workforce just last year alone, though that number could include other factors such as workers taking jobs not officially captured in statistics.

Especially among those who have fled the country are educated workers with in-demand skills like engineering or computer programming. This massive loss of talent looks to be one of the biggest economic consequences of Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

"I don't think Russian authorities will admit it, but we've seen a massive brain drain," says Prokopenko.

Even before the invasion, Russia was experiencing a labor shortage: Businesses and factories complained that they couldn't find the workers they needed.

"Now it's a full-blown demographic crisis," says Oleg Itskhoki, an economist at the University of California, Los Angeles

Oh and a bonus reminder of just how dumb and poorly run Russia's military is - they are still suffering from senior officers being too dumb not to broadcast their real-time location. I guess they were relying on Elno to protect them by disallowing sharing of this info on twitter lol.




Cal88
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MacGregor is such an antisemite that he's almost singlehandedly reshaped Israel's armored division strategy after their debacle in the Lebanon war. He's actually a staunch supporter of Israel.

About NATO, observers like MacGregor and others you are not familiar with from within Europe foresee the tensions and diverging agendas having an effect in the near future, with rising economic and social instability. The fact is, leaders like Macron, Sunak, Scholtz et al do not represent their people, there has been a growing Ukraine war fatigue within many key western European nations. The cracks are going to start appearing as the economic situation deteriorate across Europe.

IIRC, Russia has actually had a budget surplus in 2022. Here's a country with virtually no debt, a budget surplus in times of war, no unemployment, a booming manufacturing sector. That is the big picture, any country in Europe would KILL for those kinds of economic "troubles"...

https://www.reuters.com/markets/europe/russias-factory-activity-expands-13th-month-running-may-2023-06-01/

The Ruble has been fluctuating along with the oil prices, which actually insures that the oil revenues in Rubles do not fluctuate as much, which would result in a balanced budget. By and large, even sources like the WSJ and FT have recognized that the Russian economy has been well run.

Erdogan is doing his thing again, playing both sides, SOP for him. He is not however going to go through with economic sanctions on Russia, Turkey has been one of the main hubs for the Russian trade, and a big destination for Russian tourists and investors.

Russia's demography is actually better than that of most European countries. And of course Ukraine's has completely collapsed, going from a country of 46M in 2010 to little more than a third of that today. At this rate Ukraine is going to end up with less than 10M people, should Russia take over all the russophone regions in the south and east (Kharkov, Odessa, Dnipro etc).

But mainly, this:
Quote:

In the real world, this war continues to be a disaster for Putin and Russia. There is no world in which Russia ends the war stronger than it started.

On what planet is Russia losing this war on the battlefield today? I mean I know our sources diverge but this is ridiculous.

This has been the worst month for Ukraine since the early phases of the war. The counteroffensive has been a complete failure from start to finish, even Zaluzhny (who had a lot of reservations about the tactics used) acknowledged as much. Ukraine has lost over 25,000 soldiers in this offensive, and a good chunk of the material donated by NATO that it has painstakingly hoarded over this year.

Column after column of Bradleys and Leopards have been crushed by the combined Russian air and ground defenses, in a Ka-52s, Lancets, Kornet ATGMs turkey shoot. Things have been so bad that the Brits actually forbade Ukraine from using their Challenger tanks in the offensive (which is a godsend considering they use highly toxic Uranium shells). I guess Milley and co. knew the spiel, that's why they've avoided altogether sending Abramses.
movielover
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What happens when countries join BRICS, and ask the USA for their gold - which we are storing for them?
Big C
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More talk at the NATO summit today of Ukraine eventually joining NATO? All I can hope is that it is "tough talk" in order to use that as a bargaining chip, to get some sort of peace settlement...

However, one of the conditions is supposedly that the war needs to end first. Say what?!? Why in the world would Putin/Russia want to come to some sort of negotiated end to the war, if as soon as they do, that clears the path for Ukraine to join NATO?

Pretty crazy stuff. Too many players in this seem like they want the war to continue.

I'm sure what I just wrote riled up a few folks here, so hey, let me have it...
Cal88
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What this really means, in practical terms, is that they really will fight to the last Ukrainian. Because if NATO states that Ukraine will join at the end of the war, it means that the Russians will not want to end this war.

This looks like it's going to go on until there is regime change in Kiev, or they run out of men (including mercs from Poland and NATO), or weapons/ammunitions, whichever happens first. So it could go on for another year. Tragic and senselss.
BearHunter
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Meme potential is tremendous.
dimitrig
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Cal88 said:

What this really means, in practical terms, is that they really will fight to the last Ukrainian. Because if NATO states that Ukraine will join at the end of the war, it means that the Russians will not want to end this war.

This looks like it's going to go on until there is regime change in Kiev, or they run out of men (including mercs from Poland and NATO), or weapons/ammunitions, whichever happens first. So it could go on for another year. Tragic and senselss.


Another year? Won't Russia's superior military have this thing sewn up by then?

sycasey
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Such foolish thinking by NATO. Don't they know that this might mean Russia starts a war?
dimitrig
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sycasey said:

Such foolish thinking by NATO. Don't they know that this might mean Russia starts a war?


Russia is playing 4-D chess. They are thinking so far ahead of anyone else.

movielover
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dimitrig said:

Cal88 said:

What this really means, in practical terms, is that they really will fight to the last Ukrainian. Because if NATO states that Ukraine will join at the end of the war, it means that the Russians will not want to end this war.

This looks like it's going to go on until there is regime change in Kiev, or they run out of men (including mercs from Poland and NATO), or weapons/ammunitions, whichever happens first. So it could go on for another year. Tragic and senselss.


Another year? Won't Russia's superior military have this thing sewn up by then?




We'll see. McGregor suggests the longer this goes, that Russia may go all the way to the Polish border.

It will be interesting to see if Russia ramps things up, given they're fighting with shovels.
Unit2Sucks
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Big C said:


More talk at the NATO summit today of Ukraine eventually joining NATO? All I can hope is that it is "tough talk" in order to use that as a bargaining chip, to get some sort of peace settlement...

However, one of the conditions is supposedly that the war needs to end first. Say what?!? Why in the world would Putin/Russia want to come to some sort of negotiated end to the war, if as soon as they do, that clears the path for Ukraine to join NATO?

Pretty crazy stuff. Too many players in this seem like they want the war to continue.

I'm sure what I just wrote riled up a few folks here, so hey, let me have it...
C'mon Big C - you're smarter than this. NATO can't accept Ukraine during the war because article V would kick in on day 1 and NATO would essentially be importing a war. That's certainly one way to defeat Russia (since it wouldn't stand a chance against NATO's full might) but no country other than Russia wants to fight a dumb war right now.

Defeating Russia isn't the only condition for NATO accession for Ukraine, it's just the most challenging condition for them to meet. NATO did make things easier by saying that Ukraine won't need a Membership Action Plan but that doesn't mean that no conditions must be met.

sycasey said:

Such foolish thinking by NATO. Don't they know that this might mean Russia starts a war?
Russia's already losing one forever war with Ukraine, who's to say they aren't dumb enough to start another with Finland or even Sweden?



Big C
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Unit2Sucks said:

Big C said:


More talk at the NATO summit today of Ukraine eventually joining NATO? All I can hope is that it is "tough talk" in order to use that as a bargaining chip, to get some sort of peace settlement...

However, one of the conditions is supposedly that the war needs to end first. Say what?!? Why in the world would Putin/Russia want to come to some sort of negotiated end to the war, if as soon as they do, that clears the path for Ukraine to join NATO?

Pretty crazy stuff. Too many players in this seem like they want the war to continue.

I'm sure what I just wrote riled up a few folks here, so hey, let me have it...
C'mon Big C - you're smarter than this. NATO can't accept Ukraine during the war because article V would kick in on day 1 and NATO would essentially be importing a war. That's certainly one way to defeat Russia (since it wouldn't stand a chance against NATO's full might) but no country other than Russia wants to fight a dumb war right now.

Defeating Russia isn't the only condition for NATO accession for Ukraine, it's just the most challenging condition for them to meet. NATO did make things easier by saying that Ukraine won't need a Membership Action Plan but that doesn't mean that no conditions must be met.

sycasey said:

Such foolish thinking by NATO. Don't they know that this might mean Russia starts a war?
Russia's already losing one forever war with Ukraine, who's to say they aren't dumb enough to start another with Finland or even Sweden?





Yes, I am smarter than this. I get why NATO can't have Ukraine join now. My problem is that they should STHU about ever having them join. Yeah, sure, they're going to "start another with Finland or even Sweden". The Domino Theory doesn't apply here, IMO: Putin just wants his old USSR back (not that he "deserves" it or should get it).

Eff Putin, who owns this war, but I think we could do a better job of brokering peace (unless, as I said, this latest is a bargaining chip to force Putin to the negotiating table).

As ever, I understand that most folks here disagree with me on this issue. One of my responses to that is, how are things going over there right now? Got a 20 year old? Want to send him/her over to help this noble cause? I thought not, nor should you.

Cal88
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dimitrig said:

Cal88 said:

What this really means, in practical terms, is that they really will fight to the last Ukrainian. Because if NATO states that Ukraine will join at the end of the war, it means that the Russians will not want to end this war.

This looks like it's going to go on until there is regime change in Kiev, or they run out of men (including mercs from Poland and NATO), or weapons/ammunitions, whichever happens first. So it could go on for another year. Tragic and senselss.


Another year? Won't Russia's superior military have this thing sewn up by then?


By now, you should know that this is a war of attrition. It took Russia over a year to painstakingly attrit Ukraine's anti-air capacity using long-range drone and missile attacks designed in part to soak up Ukrainian and NATO anti-air missile inventory, to the point where they can now inject their air power into the war, at least near the frontline.

For the last 6-8 months, Russia has relied on a relatively static artillery-driven approach that has resulted in a very favorable loss ratio for them. They will probably not change strategy, especially now that Ukraine is being pressured into recklessly attacking well-defended lines by its NATO backers.

Russia wants to win this war with minimal losses and minimal military engagement, they're not in a hurry to win. Time is on their side, as NATO is unable to sustain the volume of weapons and ammunition used, and the domestic pressure from economic and social strains on western governments is growing, while in Russia the war has been popular at home, especially with the daily stream of burned up columns of Bradleys and Leopards.
Cal88
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movielover said:

What happens when countries join BRICS, and ask the USA for their gold - which we are storing for them?

This has already started, shades of late 1960s, when Charles de Gaulle sent his navy to repatriate French gold from Fort Knox. That move precipitated the end of the gold standard and the pivot to the Petrodollar. It also got de Gaulle a color revolution and a couple of assassination attempts...
Cal88
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"It's horror, it's genocide"

Great war capsule by imbedded British journalist:


Lone NATO advocate for peace:


Roseanne Barr is of Ukrainian descent, many members of her family were exterminated by Banderites for being Jewish:





sycasey
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Big C said:

Got a 20 year old? Want to send him/her over to help this noble cause? I thought not, nor should you.



Why should anyone expect, at this point, that Russia's military is strong enough to require us to draft troops and send them over to fight them? Seems pretty clear from their results in Ukraine that it wouldn't require nearly that much effort.
Cal88
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sycasey said:

Big C said:

Got a 20 year old? Want to send him/her over to help this noble cause? I thought not, nor should you.



Why should anyone expect, at this point, that Russia's military is strong enough to require us to draft troops and send them over to fight them? Seems pretty clear from their results in Ukraine that it wouldn't require nearly that much effort.

So it's OK, as long as it's the Ukrainians, and soon the Poles, that are doing the dying for us?

A large number of Ukrainians don't want to die at the front, and are being forcibly conscripted.

As well, about 4,800 foreign fighters have already been killed, and NATO insiders (especially the Brits and Poles) have been calling for an escalation:

sycasey
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Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Big C said:

Got a 20 year old? Want to send him/her over to help this noble cause? I thought not, nor should you.



Why should anyone expect, at this point, that Russia's military is strong enough to require us to draft troops and send them over to fight them? Seems pretty clear from their results in Ukraine that it wouldn't require nearly that much effort.

So it's OK, as long as it's the Ukrainians, and soon the Poles, that are doing the dying for us?

A large number of Ukrainians don't want to die at the front, and are being forcibly conscripted.

As well, about 4,800 foreign fighters have already been killed, and NATO insiders (especially the Brits and Poles) have been calling for an escalation:

Russia can stop invading whenever they want. I think it's pretty clear at this point that the Ukrainians do not want to be part of Russia.
oski003
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sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Big C said:

Got a 20 year old? Want to send him/her over to help this noble cause? I thought not, nor should you.



Why should anyone expect, at this point, that Russia's military is strong enough to require us to draft troops and send them over to fight them? Seems pretty clear from their results in Ukraine that it wouldn't require nearly that much effort.

So it's OK, as long as it's the Ukrainians, and soon the Poles, that are doing the dying for us?

A large number of Ukrainians don't want to die at the front, and are being forcibly conscripted.

As well, about 4,800 foreign fighters have already been killed, and NATO insiders (especially the Brits and Poles) have been calling for an escalation:

Russia can stop invading whenever they want. I think it's pretty clear at this point that the Ukrainians do not want to be part of Russia.


Which part of Ukraine are you referring to? Does this include the Donbass? Crimea? Yes, we are all aware that Russia can unilaterally withdraw. We are also aware that peace can be achieved by NATO recognizing Crimea as Russian, recognizing Donbass as independent, and not expanding into Ukraine.
sycasey
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oski003 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Big C said:

Got a 20 year old? Want to send him/her over to help this noble cause? I thought not, nor should you.



Why should anyone expect, at this point, that Russia's military is strong enough to require us to draft troops and send them over to fight them? Seems pretty clear from their results in Ukraine that it wouldn't require nearly that much effort.

So it's OK, as long as it's the Ukrainians, and soon the Poles, that are doing the dying for us?

A large number of Ukrainians don't want to die at the front, and are being forcibly conscripted.

As well, about 4,800 foreign fighters have already been killed, and NATO insiders (especially the Brits and Poles) have been calling for an escalation:

Russia can stop invading whenever they want. I think it's pretty clear at this point that the Ukrainians do not want to be part of Russia.


Which part of Ukraine are you referring to? Does this include the Donbass? Crimea? Yes, we are all aware that Russia can unilaterally withdraw. We are also aware that peace can be achieved by NATO recognizing Crimea as Russian, recognizing Donbass as independent, and not expanding into Ukraine.

That's kind of up to the Ukrainians. Seems like they still want to fight for the Donbass, at minimum.
oski003
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sycasey said:

oski003 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Big C said:

Got a 20 year old? Want to send him/her over to help this noble cause? I thought not, nor should you.



Why should anyone expect, at this point, that Russia's military is strong enough to require us to draft troops and send them over to fight them? Seems pretty clear from their results in Ukraine that it wouldn't require nearly that much effort.

So it's OK, as long as it's the Ukrainians, and soon the Poles, that are doing the dying for us?

A large number of Ukrainians don't want to die at the front, and are being forcibly conscripted.

As well, about 4,800 foreign fighters have already been killed, and NATO insiders (especially the Brits and Poles) have been calling for an escalation:

Russia can stop invading whenever they want. I think it's pretty clear at this point that the Ukrainians do not want to be part of Russia.


Which part of Ukraine are you referring to? Does this include the Donbass? Crimea? Yes, we are all aware that Russia can unilaterally withdraw. We are also aware that peace can be achieved by NATO recognizing Crimea as Russian, recognizing Donbass as independent, and not expanding into Ukraine.

That's kind of up to the Ukrainians. Seems like they still want to fight for the Donbass, at minimum.


Which Ukrainians? The ones in Western Ukraine? Do the people in Crimea have a say?
Unit2Sucks
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sycasey said:

Big C said:

Got a 20 year old? Want to send him/her over to help this noble cause? I thought not, nor should you.



Why should anyone expect, at this point, that Russia's military is strong enough to require us to draft troops and send them over to fight them? Seems pretty clear from their results in Ukraine that it wouldn't require nearly that much effort.
Biden would rather Ukraine lose the war than send US troops. He was the only POTUS to have the stones to end the forever war in Afghanistan and he's not going to follow that up by sending troops to Ukraine.

As Obama noted, Ukraine is more of a core interest for Russia than it is for the US. We are happy to support them by sending (largely outdated) hardware and munitions, but we aren't sending Americans over to fight.

Nor do we need to as Sycasey points out. Ukraine has retaken more territory in the "disastrous" first month of the counter-offensive than Russia gained in the last 5 months, which the shills told us were extremely successful for Putin. This counter-offensive is unlikely to be a knock-out blow, but I expect to see more success as Ukraine folds in the battalions that it has held back. I posted about this last week but there are ~5 phases to this counter-offensive and I believe we are still in the first phase.

Long-story short, if there is a need for NATO to send troops, it will have to come from Poland and other countries in Europe who are more likely to face attack from Putin, not from the US. We have financial and other interests at stake with Ukraine, but it is not a security risk at all. Putin wants no piece of the US and would be destroyed if he came after us.

EDIT: We are likely all familiar with Putin's view on how great Russia's economy is but researchers at Yale paint a very different picture. Believe it or not, they don't think Putin is being honest.

Quote:

"Far from the prevailing narrative on how Putin funds his invasion, Putin's financial lifeline has his merciless cannibalization of Russian economic productivity," Sonnenfeld and Tian said. "He has been burning the living room furniture to fuel his battles in Ukraine, but that is now starting to backfire amidst a deafening silence and dearth of public support."

...

Those measures have contributed to the flight of millionaires and everyday workers, who have left the country to look for better opportunities, significantly hurting the nation's output and productivity. And though Putin has made a show of Russia's economic strength, his actions have only bought Russia more time, researchers warned.

"That resilience is nothing but a Potemkin faade, sustained not through genuine economic productivity but rather through shaking down the entire country for pennies to direct towards war," Sonnenfeld and Tian said. "Putin can continue to sustain his invasion of Ukraine this way, but in doing so, continues to rip off his own people. In avoiding outright economic collapse by mortgaging Russia's future, he grows more unloved by his people and is thus increasingly weakened.

...

Sonnenfeld and Tian have been critical of the state of Russia's economy, despite Putin's attempts to assure the public that Russia is doing just fine. Unpublished statistics from the Kremlin are likely to show a weaker picture of Russia's economy than the government has led on, Sonnenfeld and Tian said, who previously argued that Russia's economic figures were merely "cherry-picked" and that its economy was actually imploding.

In April, the same researchers said that Russia's economic data is "pure invention." It's no different from how Russian propaganda invents casualty numbers from Ukraine - just making stuff up to pretend like the war is going better than it is.

sycasey
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oski003 said:

sycasey said:

oski003 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Big C said:

Got a 20 year old? Want to send him/her over to help this noble cause? I thought not, nor should you.



Why should anyone expect, at this point, that Russia's military is strong enough to require us to draft troops and send them over to fight them? Seems pretty clear from their results in Ukraine that it wouldn't require nearly that much effort.

So it's OK, as long as it's the Ukrainians, and soon the Poles, that are doing the dying for us?

A large number of Ukrainians don't want to die at the front, and are being forcibly conscripted.

As well, about 4,800 foreign fighters have already been killed, and NATO insiders (especially the Brits and Poles) have been calling for an escalation:

Russia can stop invading whenever they want. I think it's pretty clear at this point that the Ukrainians do not want to be part of Russia.


Which part of Ukraine are you referring to? Does this include the Donbass? Crimea? Yes, we are all aware that Russia can unilaterally withdraw. We are also aware that peace can be achieved by NATO recognizing Crimea as Russian, recognizing Donbass as independent, and not expanding into Ukraine.

That's kind of up to the Ukrainians. Seems like they still want to fight for the Donbass, at minimum.


Which Ukrainians? The ones in Western Ukraine? Do the people in Crimea have a say?
I'm all for everyone in Ukraine getting the chance to participate in a free and fair election. Hopefully they get to do it without an ongoing military invasion or while under the thumb of Russian occupation. I think it goes without saying that an election under those conditions would not be free and fair.
movielover
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sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Big C said:

Got a 20 year old? Want to send him/her over to help this noble cause? I thought not, nor should you.



Why should anyone expect, at this point, that Russia's military is strong enough to require us to draft troops and send them over to fight them? Seems pretty clear from their results in Ukraine that it wouldn't require nearly that much effort.

So it's OK, as long as it's the Ukrainians, and soon the Poles, that are doing the dying for us?

A large number of Ukrainians don't want to die at the front, and are being forcibly conscripted.

As well, about 4,800 foreign fighters have already been killed, and NATO insiders (especially the Brits and Poles) have been calling for an escalation:

Russia can stop invading whenever they want. I think it's pretty clear at this point that the Ukrainians do not want to be part of Russia.


Half truth, half lie = lie.

Eastern UKR, the Donbas area of ethnic Russians, want peace either via a neutral zone or joining Russia partly, or in whole.

Colonel McGregor claims Putin doesnt want to occupy western Ukraine and deal with an unending insurgency. But if NATO forces him, he may.
oski003
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sycasey said:

oski003 said:

sycasey said:

oski003 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Big C said:

Got a 20 year old? Want to send him/her over to help this noble cause? I thought not, nor should you.



Why should anyone expect, at this point, that Russia's military is strong enough to require us to draft troops and send them over to fight them? Seems pretty clear from their results in Ukraine that it wouldn't require nearly that much effort.

So it's OK, as long as it's the Ukrainians, and soon the Poles, that are doing the dying for us?

A large number of Ukrainians don't want to die at the front, and are being forcibly conscripted.

As well, about 4,800 foreign fighters have already been killed, and NATO insiders (especially the Brits and Poles) have been calling for an escalation:

Russia can stop invading whenever they want. I think it's pretty clear at this point that the Ukrainians do not want to be part of Russia.


Which part of Ukraine are you referring to? Does this include the Donbass? Crimea? Yes, we are all aware that Russia can unilaterally withdraw. We are also aware that peace can be achieved by NATO recognizing Crimea as Russian, recognizing Donbass as independent, and not expanding into Ukraine.

That's kind of up to the Ukrainians. Seems like they still want to fight for the Donbass, at minimum.


Which Ukrainians? The ones in Western Ukraine? Do the people in Crimea have a say?
I'm all for everyone in Ukraine getting the chance to participate in a free and fair election. Hopefully they get to do it without an ongoing military invasion or while under the thumb of Russian occupation. I think it goes without saying that an election under those conditions would not be free and fair.


Got it. The people in the Crimea and Donbass don't have a say right now because the area is either Russian controlled or contested. However, the people in Kyiv have a say over their fate because these areas were part of Ukraine when Ukraine was a close ally of Russia.
Cal88
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Unit2Sucks said:

sycasey said:

Big C said:

Got a 20 year old? Want to send him/her over to help this noble cause? I thought not, nor should you.

Why should anyone expect, at this point, that Russia's military is strong enough to require us to draft troops and send them over to fight them? Seems pretty clear from their results in Ukraine that it wouldn't require nearly that much effort.

EDIT: We are likely all familiar with Putin's view on how great Russia's economy is but researchers at Yale paint a very different picture. Believe it or not, they don't think Putin is being honest.

Quote:

"...

"That resilience is nothing but a Potemkin facade, sustained not through genuine economic productivity but rather through shaking down the entire country for pennies to direct towards war," Sonnenfeld and Tian said. "Putin can continue to sustain his invasion of Ukraine this way, but in doing so, continues to rip off his own people. In avoiding outright economic collapse by mortgaging Russia's future, he grows more unloved by his people and is thus increasingly weakened.

In April, the same researchers said that Russia's economic data is "pure invention." It's no different from how Russian propaganda invents casualty numbers from Ukraine - just making stuff up to pretend like the war is going better than it is.

Russia's biggest economic problem according to your sources is that it is having a labor shortage... Shouldn't an ailing economy have an unemployment problem instead?

Your source, Sonnenfled and his team at Yale, are not researchers, they are full-on anti-Russia activists, churning out ideologically driven narratives not rooted in reality, they are not credible. They predicted monetary and economic collapse, and nearly two years later none of the Sonnenfeld Yale team predictions have come through.

Sonnenfeld is the equivalent of Gordon Chang, who published several books about the impending economic collapse of China. Sonnenfeld actually claims that Russia is having a massive unemployment problem, Somehow they've managed to simultaneously have a labor shortage AND massive unemployment, somehow...

The capital flight and youth exodus is overstated, as well a lot of expat Russians have been returning, because their assets abroad are being stolen by local authorities. In France for example, vacation houses in Biarritz and Provence belonging to Russians have been seized from their private owners, not just oligarchs but also moderately affluent Russians. Russian nationals aren'teven allowed to open bank accounts in Europe, even those who are anti-Putin.


Quote:

Biden would rather Ukraine lose the war than send US troops. He was the only POTUS to have the stones to end the forever war in Afghanistan and he's not going to follow that up by sending troops to Ukraine.

As Obama noted, Ukraine is more of a core interest for Russia than it is for the US. We are happy to support them by sending (largely outdated) hardware and munitions, but we aren't sending Americans over to fight.

Nor do we need to as Sycasey points out. Ukraine has retaken more territory in the "disastrous" first month of the counter-offensive than Russia gained in the last 5 months, which the shills told us were extremely successful for Putin. This counter-offensive is unlikely to be a knock-out blow, but I expect to see more success as Ukraine folds in the battalions that it has held back. I posted about this last week but there are ~5 phases to this counter-offensive and I believe we are still in the first phase.

Long-story short, if there is a need for NATO to send troops, it will have to come from Poland and other countries in Europe who are more likely to face attack from Putin, not from the US. We have financial and other interests at stake with Ukraine, but it is not a security risk at all. Putin wants no piece of the US and would be destroyed if he came after us.

Clearly we don't live on the same planet. I frankly would have thought that Ukrainian forces, through shear brute force and a kitchen sink strategy, by throwing tens of thousands of bodies, might have at least gotten to the first line of defense by now, at a huge cost. Instead they got a couple of kms here and there, at a cost of 25,000+ soldiers and about a quarter of their armored vehicle fleet. At this rate, they will need an army of 2.5 million to get to the coast...

My question here is, would the last of the 5 phases in your grand counter-offensive plan correspond to the last Ukrainian, or would that poor fellow be used up in Phase 4, with the Last Pole coming in on Phase 5?
movielover
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Ukraine and NATO are so sick, they're sending pregnant women into battle.

Daily Beast: "Despite shortages in even the most basic resources like sanitary pads, the dedication of scores of Ukrainian women who are fighting in the war is unwavering, Kolesnyk told The Daily Beast.

"For a housewife somewhere in Oregon, it would probably sound crazy that pregnant women fight on the front to defend Ukraine, but our country is constantly under attack, so even pregnant women fight against Russian invaders until they are seven months pregnant. I currently have requests for specially designed uniforms and other important items from at least 10 pregnant soldiers," he said. "We have shortages for every single item… So far nobody has managed to actually help." "

Anthony Blinken and Lloyd Austin - please have one of your 44 gender-aligned 4-star Generals design bullet proof vests and military fatigue ls for petite and busty women.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/women-in-ukraines-army-reveal-agonizing-secrets-of-fighting-russian-invasion
sycasey
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movielover said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Big C said:

Got a 20 year old? Want to send him/her over to help this noble cause? I thought not, nor should you.



Why should anyone expect, at this point, that Russia's military is strong enough to require us to draft troops and send them over to fight them? Seems pretty clear from their results in Ukraine that it wouldn't require nearly that much effort.

So it's OK, as long as it's the Ukrainians, and soon the Poles, that are doing the dying for us?

A large number of Ukrainians don't want to die at the front, and are being forcibly conscripted.

As well, about 4,800 foreign fighters have already been killed, and NATO insiders (especially the Brits and Poles) have been calling for an escalation:

Russia can stop invading whenever they want. I think it's pretty clear at this point that the Ukrainians do not want to be part of Russia.


Half truth, half lie = lie.

Eastern UKR, the Donbas area of ethnic Russians, want peace either via a neutral zone or joining Russia partly, or in whole.

So Russia says. I think the people there should be able to choose or not choose that option freely rather than be militarily invaded.
sycasey
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oski003 said:

sycasey said:

oski003 said:

sycasey said:

oski003 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Big C said:

Got a 20 year old? Want to send him/her over to help this noble cause? I thought not, nor should you.



Why should anyone expect, at this point, that Russia's military is strong enough to require us to draft troops and send them over to fight them? Seems pretty clear from their results in Ukraine that it wouldn't require nearly that much effort.

So it's OK, as long as it's the Ukrainians, and soon the Poles, that are doing the dying for us?

A large number of Ukrainians don't want to die at the front, and are being forcibly conscripted.

As well, about 4,800 foreign fighters have already been killed, and NATO insiders (especially the Brits and Poles) have been calling for an escalation:

Russia can stop invading whenever they want. I think it's pretty clear at this point that the Ukrainians do not want to be part of Russia.


Which part of Ukraine are you referring to? Does this include the Donbass? Crimea? Yes, we are all aware that Russia can unilaterally withdraw. We are also aware that peace can be achieved by NATO recognizing Crimea as Russian, recognizing Donbass as independent, and not expanding into Ukraine.

That's kind of up to the Ukrainians. Seems like they still want to fight for the Donbass, at minimum.


Which Ukrainians? The ones in Western Ukraine? Do the people in Crimea have a say?
I'm all for everyone in Ukraine getting the chance to participate in a free and fair election. Hopefully they get to do it without an ongoing military invasion or while under the thumb of Russian occupation. I think it goes without saying that an election under those conditions would not be free and fair.


Got it. The people in the Crimea and Donbass don't have a say right now because the area is either Russian controlled or contested. However, the people in Kyiv have a say over their fate because these areas were part of Ukraine when Ukraine was a close ally of Russia.

Yes, the Ukrainian government gets to govern parts of Ukraine. Was this supposed to be a gotcha?
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