The Official Russian Invasion of Ukraine Thread

940,294 Views | 10272 Replies | Last: 2 days ago by Cal88
Cal88
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sycasey said:

The current Nazi Ukrainian government and its Jewish president.

The current Nazi Ukrainian government and its Jewish president, who has whitewashed Bandera:


Zelensky's political career was launched by Kolomoisky, oligarch who funded neo-nazi militias. Kolomoisky also happens to be Jewish.

Quote:

Before becoming part of Ukraine's armed forces, who funded Azov?

The unit received backing from Ukraine's interior minister in 2014, as the government had recognised its own military was too weak to fight off the pro-Russian separatists and relied on paramilitary volunteer forces.

These forces were privately funded by oligarchs the most known being Igor Kolomoisky, an energy magnate billionaire and then-governor of the Dnipropetrovska region.

In addition to Azov, Kolomoisky funded other volunteer battalions such as the Dnipro 1 and Dnipro 2, Aidar and Donbas units.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment

Here are the heads of the Ukrainian army posing next to the busts of Bandera and other 1940s genocidal Ukrainian nazis, with Shukhevych pictured in his nazi military uniform, no less:




No equivalency whasoever.
sycasey
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If speaking semi-positively about one fascist means you are a fascist then there are a lot more of them around than I expected.
Cal88
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sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

Having large number of unemployed recent immigrants from cultures that are very different from local ones leads to their not integrating, and to social problems.

Having laws that make it very difficult for immigrants to find work or become citizens leads to not integrating and social problems. This is one area where the US is clearly superior to our European allies.

Real unemployment in France, Spain, Italy etc has been above 10% for decades now, and youth unemployment sky high, 32% in Spain and 17% in France. Those countries don't need a continued influx of millions of young low-skilled labor.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/613670/youth-unemployment-rates-in-europe/

As well almost all the rioters in the recent riots in France are citizens, many in fact 2nd generation. The problem is not about work permits. You can't have an elaborate social program and open border together.
Unit2Sucks
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sycasey said:

The current Nazi Ukrainian government and its Jewish president.
The whole thing is preposterous.

Prigozhin admitted in March that the whole denazification thing was a ruse. If Putin and Russia wanted to do something about nazis, they should start with their own military. They didn't seem to have any problem with Prigozhin's partner Utkin who is a former Russian special forces commander who worships the third reich. This entire talking point is disingenuous and is similar to the laughably false propaganda about Ukraine being in league with ISIS because a few Ukrainian soldiers had ISIS patches that they had taken as trophies.

There are pro-Nazi right wing extremists the world over. They share many of the same xenophobic view points with other far right extremists, and we see many of those viewpoints expressed on BI - so it's laughable when these same people pretend they get the vapors at the very thought of someone being a nazi.

I recently said that I don't like to make projections but I will make one now. Whenever this dumb criminal invasion ends, "denazification" will not factor in whatsoever. There will be no timetable for denazification and it will not be in whatever peace agreement is signed. It was a completely fabricated pretext by a corrupt criminal leader in order to help generate support for an incredibly stupid 3-day war which has turned into a 500+ slow-motion train wreck for Putin.

Here's Prigozhin from a few weeks ago:
Quote:

The invasion was nothing more than a massive land grab by the Russian oligarchy, Prigozhin charged, designed to enrich the country's powerful elites while poor Russians served as cannon fodder. Russian claims that a Nazi regime in Ukraine, backed by NATO, was about to attack Russia were lies, Prigozhin said. The war was started by the Russian oligarchy to benefit themselves and gain power. In his rant, Prigozhin did not criticize Russian President Vladimir Putin by name, focusing instead on the broader Russian elite, and specifically on his personal enemy Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu.

"The Ministry of Defense is trying to deceive the public and the president and spin the story that there were insane levels of aggression from the Ukrainian side and that they were going to attack us together with the whole NATO bloc," Prigozhin said on his Telegram channel on June 23. The truth, he said, was that "there was nothing extraordinary happening on the eve of February 24," the day last year when Russian invaded. Ukraine was not planning any kind of attack against Russia, he added.

Russia's invasion "was started for a completely different reason," Prigozhin said. "What was the war for? The war was needed for Shoigu to receive a hero star. … The oligarchic clan that rules Russia needed the war," he said. "The mentally ill scumbags decided: 'It's OK, we'll throw in a few thousand more Russian men as cannon fodder. They'll die under artillery fire, but we'll get what we want.'"

"Shoigu killed thousands of the most combat-ready Russian soldiers in the first days of the war," Prigozhin said, adding that the invasion began even as Zelenskyy and Ukraine were eager for peace. The Ukrainian leader "was ready for agreements. All that needed to be done was to get off Mount Olympus and negotiate with him."
When you run a corrupt sh(thole kleptocracy that is attacking your peaceful neighbor, you have to make up a bunch of reasons to justify your invasion because you can't possibly admit the truth. The fact that there are useful idiots amplifying the made up stuff doesn't make it any more credible.

Don't get me wrong, I am sure there are anti-semites and Nazi supporters in Ukraine, just like there are in Russia, the US, and the world over. Anti-semitism is a sickness that the world is unlikely to ever be free from. But it has nothing to do with the war in Ukraine.
sycasey
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Unit2Sucks said:

sycasey said:

The current Nazi Ukrainian government and its Jewish president.
The whole thing is preposterous.

Prigozhin admitted in March that the whole denazification thing was a ruse. If Putin and Russia wanted to do something about nazis, they should start with their own military. They didn't seem to have any problem with Prigozhin's partner Utkin who is a former Russian special forces commander who worships the third reich. This entire talking point is disingenuous and is similar to the laughably false propaganda about Ukraine being in league with ISIS because a few Ukrainian soldiers had ISIS patches that they had taken as trophies.

There are pro-Nazi right wing extremists the world over. They share many of the same xenophobic view points with other far right extremists, and we see many of those viewpoints expressed on BI - so it's laughable when these same people pretend they get the vapors at the very thought of someone being a nazi.

I recently said that I don't like to make projections but I will make one now. Whenever this dumb criminal invasion ends, "denazification" will not factor in whatsoever. There will be no timetable for denazification and it will not be in whatever peace agreement is signed. It was a completely fabricated pretext by a corrupt criminal leader in order to help generate support for an incredibly stupid 3-day war which has turned into a 500+ slow-motion train wreck for Putin.

Here's Prigozhin from a few weeks ago:
Quote:

The invasion was nothing more than a massive land grab by the Russian oligarchy, Prigozhin charged, designed to enrich the country's powerful elites while poor Russians served as cannon fodder. Russian claims that a Nazi regime in Ukraine, backed by NATO, was about to attack Russia were lies, Prigozhin said. The war was started by the Russian oligarchy to benefit themselves and gain power. In his rant, Prigozhin did not criticize Russian President Vladimir Putin by name, focusing instead on the broader Russian elite, and specifically on his personal enemy Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu.

"The Ministry of Defense is trying to deceive the public and the president and spin the story that there were insane levels of aggression from the Ukrainian side and that they were going to attack us together with the whole NATO bloc," Prigozhin said on his Telegram channel on June 23. The truth, he said, was that "there was nothing extraordinary happening on the eve of February 24," the day last year when Russian invaded. Ukraine was not planning any kind of attack against Russia, he added.

Russia's invasion "was started for a completely different reason," Prigozhin said. "What was the war for? The war was needed for Shoigu to receive a hero star. … The oligarchic clan that rules Russia needed the war," he said. "The mentally ill scumbags decided: 'It's OK, we'll throw in a few thousand more Russian men as cannon fodder. They'll die under artillery fire, but we'll get what we want.'"

"Shoigu killed thousands of the most combat-ready Russian soldiers in the first days of the war," Prigozhin said, adding that the invasion began even as Zelenskyy and Ukraine were eager for peace. The Ukrainian leader "was ready for agreements. All that needed to be done was to get off Mount Olympus and negotiate with him."
When you run a corrupt sh(thole kleptocracy that is attacking your peaceful neighbor, you have to make up a bunch of reasons to justify your invasion because you can't possibly admit the truth. The fact that there are useful idiots amplifying the made up stuff doesn't make it any more credible.

Don't get me wrong, I am sure there are anti-semites and Nazi supporters in Ukraine, just like there are in Russia, the US, and the world over. Anti-semitism is a sickness that the world is unlikely to ever be free from. But it has nothing to do with the war in Ukraine.

If there's a country most behaving like fascists in this conflict, it's clearly Russia.
Cal88
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sycasey said:



If there's a country most behaving like fascists in this conflict, it's clearly Russia.

As opposed to the country with the tanks and vehicles adorning the nazi Wehrmacht's balkenkreuz and the divisions badged with the nazi black sun and wolfsangel insignia. The party that regards Stepan Bandera, one of the very worst genocidal maniacs of WW2, leader of the OUN/UPA whose savagery against Jews and Poles shocked even the SS, as its national hero and founding father. Yeah, clearly Russia then...

Quote:

Atrocities

Attacks on Poles during the massacres in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia were marked with extreme sadism and brutality. Rape, torture and mutilation were commonplace. Poles were burned alive, flayed, impaled, crucified, disembowelled, dismembered and beheaded. Women were gang raped and had their breasts sliced off, children were hacked to pieces with axes, babies were impaled on bayonets and pitchforks or bashed against trees.

The atrocities were carried out indiscriminately and without restraint. The victims, regardless of their age or gender, were routinely tortured to death. Norman Davies in No Simple Victory gives a short but shocking description of the massacres:
Quote:

Villages were torched. Roman Catholic priests were axed or crucified. Churches were burned with all their parishioners. Isolated farms were attacked by gangs carrying pitchforks and kitchen knives. Throats were cut. Pregnant women were bayoneted. Children were cut in two. Men were ambushed in the field and led away. The perpetrators could not determine the province's future. But at least they could determine that it would be a future without Poles.
An OUN order from early 1944 stated:
Quote:

Liquidate all Polish traces. Destroy all walls in the Catholic Church and other Polish prayer houses. Destroy orchards and trees in the courtyards so that there will be no trace that someone lived there.... Pay attention to the fact that when something remains that is Polish, then the Poles will have pretensions to our land".
UPA commander's order of 6 April 1944 stated: "Fight them [the Poles] unmercifully. No one is to be spared, even in case of mixed marriages".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia
Cal88
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Elements of the truth are starting to leak in the MSM, here is a new commentary from the UK's Telegraph discretely acknowledging that the disparity in casualty numbers has not favored Ukraine:

Quote:

Ukraine isn't killing enough Russians
Kyiv must improve its attrition rate against Russian forces, or score decisive strategic victories

Although a wide range of numbers have been bandied around, casualty figures on both sides in this war have been impossible for outside observers to assess in any reliable way. But, despite Kyiv's claims, the likelihood is that attrition rates have not so far been in its favour.

That means they have to find more efficient ways of killing Russian soldiers, or delivering strategic victories which render numbers irrelevant (such as via large-scale encirclements) while preserving their own. Frontal attacks, fighting outnumbered and outgunned against heavily defended obstacle belts, are likely to have the opposite effect, which is why Kyiv has so far been holding back its most powerful armoured brigades.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/26/ukraine-isnt-killing-enough-russians/

Also, it\s a bit obscene that the British journos are upset about the Ukrainians not killing enough Russians, and actually bold enough to write this in a main newspaper outlet.
sycasey
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Cal88 said:

sycasey said:



If there's a country most behaving like fascists in this conflict, it's clearly Russia.

As opposed to the country with the tanks and vehicles adorning the nazi Wehrmacht's balkenkreuz and the divisions badged with the nazi black sun and wolfsangel insignia. The party that regards Stepan Bandera, one of the very worst genocidal maniacs of WW2, leader of the OUN/UPA whose savagery against Jews and Poles shocked even the SS, as its national hero and founding father. Yeah, clearly Russia then...

Yes, the country run by a single strongman who can't be voted out and that invaded its neighbor is more fascist than the one that didn't do any of that. Funny how that works.
Cal88
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sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:



If there's a country most behaving like fascists in this conflict, it's clearly Russia.

As opposed to the country with the tanks and vehicles adorning the nazi Wehrmacht's balkenkreuz and the divisions badged with the nazi black sun and wolfsangel insignia. The party that regards Stepan Bandera, one of the very worst genocidal maniacs of WW2, leader of the OUN/UPA whose savagery against Jews and Poles shocked even the SS, as its national hero and founding father. Yeah, clearly Russia then...

Yes, the country run by a single strongman who can't be voted out and that invaded its neighbor is more fascist than the one that didn't do any of that. Funny how that works.

Putin can be voted out, he actually has to run for elections, including the upcoming next presidential elections in 24. As well, I don't think he got elected through tens of millions of mail-in votes.

Zelensky on the other hand banned all opposition parties and opposition media. His predecessors invaded the Donbass with tanks and jets, bombing cities that had rebelled after having their vote for the democratically-elected government rescinded through by the violent undemocratic Maidan Coup.




sycasey
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Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:



If there's a country most behaving like fascists in this conflict, it's clearly Russia.

As opposed to the country with the tanks and vehicles adorning the nazi Wehrmacht's balkenkreuz and the divisions badged with the nazi black sun and wolfsangel insignia. The party that regards Stepan Bandera, one of the very worst genocidal maniacs of WW2, leader of the OUN/UPA whose savagery against Jews and Poles shocked even the SS, as its national hero and founding father. Yeah, clearly Russia then...

Yes, the country run by a single strongman who can't be voted out and that invaded its neighbor is more fascist than the one that didn't do any of that. Funny how that works.

Putin can be voted out,

LOL
Cal88
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sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:



If there's a country most behaving like fascists in this conflict, it's clearly Russia.

As opposed to the country with the tanks and vehicles adorning the nazi Wehrmacht's balkenkreuz and the divisions badged with the nazi black sun and wolfsangel insignia. The party that regards Stepan Bandera, one of the very worst genocidal maniacs of WW2, leader of the OUN/UPA whose savagery against Jews and Poles shocked even the SS, as its national hero and founding father. Yeah, clearly Russia then...

Yes, the country run by a single strongman who can't be voted out and that invaded its neighbor is more fascist than the one that didn't do any of that. Funny how that works.

Putin can be voted out,

LOL
The Economist disagrees with your unscholarly opinion above:

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2016/02/04/vladimir-putins-unshakeable-popularity

movielover
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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

movielover said:

That's part of why they do it. Illegal immigrants here get an education, free health care, welfare, free food at school, food sent home for the weekend, free child care, Head Start, etc.
People have been migrating between countries for many centuries. Up until relatively recent times, there wasn't a social safety net. They did it to find better jobs and better lives. Do some people migrating to 1st world countries just want to freeload off the system? Sure some do. I believe most want to find jobs. Why do so many end up working in construction, farming, restaurants, food processing plants,etc? Because they want to work, not get a barely subsistence level existence from welfare handouts. That's what they were fleeing from.


So the corporations benefit, and we pay for the negative externalities. Senator Barbara Jordan's group - after a long study - proposed a 5-year Moratorium on even legal immigration so poor Americans could 'catch up'.
Big C
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Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:



If there's a country most behaving like fascists in this conflict, it's clearly Russia.

As opposed to the country with the tanks and vehicles adorning the nazi Wehrmacht's balkenkreuz and the divisions badged with the nazi black sun and wolfsangel insignia. The party that regards Stepan Bandera, one of the very worst genocidal maniacs of WW2, leader of the OUN/UPA whose savagery against Jews and Poles shocked even the SS, as its national hero and founding father. Yeah, clearly Russia then...

Yes, the country run by a single strongman who can't be voted out and that invaded its neighbor is more fascist than the one that didn't do any of that. Funny how that works.

Putin can be voted out,

LOL
The Economist disagrees with your unscholarly opinion above:

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2016/02/04/vladimir-putins-unshakeable-popularity



I wouldn't describe myself as a cowering wimp, but if I'm in Russia and somebody asks me what I think of Putin (the President and former KGB agent), I give them the thumbs up. In an election, I would either vote for him or just "forget" to vote. Then I would go on with my everyday life in that "prosperous" country with the great economy.

And I bet I believe in the promise of citizens exercising their democratic rights more than the average Russian.
sycasey
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Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:



If there's a country most behaving like fascists in this conflict, it's clearly Russia.

As opposed to the country with the tanks and vehicles adorning the nazi Wehrmacht's balkenkreuz and the divisions badged with the nazi black sun and wolfsangel insignia. The party that regards Stepan Bandera, one of the very worst genocidal maniacs of WW2, leader of the OUN/UPA whose savagery against Jews and Poles shocked even the SS, as its national hero and founding father. Yeah, clearly Russia then...

Yes, the country run by a single strongman who can't be voted out and that invaded its neighbor is more fascist than the one that didn't do any of that. Funny how that works.

Putin can be voted out,

LOL
The Economist disagrees with your unscholarly opinion above:

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2016/02/04/vladimir-putins-unshakeable-popularity



Yes, I'm sure Hitler and Emperor Hirohito had great popularity polling in their day too.
OneKeg
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If we're looking at the Economist for guidance, might as well see what their publishing group's democracy index has to say, attempting to rate countries on the actual viability of their democratic institutions and freedoms. Ratings are not perfect by nature, but hopefully they shed some light, directionally at least.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index

The US has been declining in this rating over the years, ranked depressingly low at 30 out of 167 nations in 2022. A "flawed democracy," down from full democracy since 2016.

Ukraine is significantly lower at 87 out of 167. A "hybrid regime." Not great.

Russia is 146 out of 167. "Authoritarian."

But that makes Putin look bad. So I'm sure that in this capacity, the Economist is not to be trusted.
Big C
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OneKeg said:

If we're looking at the Economist for guidance, might as well see what their publishing group's democracy index has to say, attempting to rate countries on the actual viability of their democratic institutions and freedoms. Ratings are not perfect by nature, but hopefully they shed some light, directionally at least.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index

The US has been declining in this rating over the years, ranked depressingly low at 30 out of 167 nations in 2022. A "flawed democracy," down from full democracy since 2016.


Ukraine is significantly lower at 87 out of 167. A "hybrid regime." Not great.

Russia is 146 out of 167. "Authoritarian."

But that makes Putin look bad. So I'm sure that in this capacity, the Economist is not to be trusted.

We're in the Top Twenty Percent of all countries! So proud...
sycasey
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OneKeg said:

Russia is 146 out of 167. "Authoritarian."

But that makes Putin look bad. So I'm sure that in this capacity, the Economist is not to be trusted.

It only makes Putin look bad if you think democracy is better than authoritarianism, which seems to be a value not all people here share.
dimitrig
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sycasey said:

OneKeg said:

Russia is 146 out of 167. "Authoritarian."

But that makes Putin look bad. So I'm sure that in this capacity, the Economist is not to be trusted.

It only makes Putin look bad if you think democracy is better than authoritarianism, which seems to be a value not all people here share.


The best government is a benevolent tyranny tempered by an occasional assassination.

Voltaire
Cal88
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Big C said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:



If there's a country most behaving like fascists in this conflict, it's clearly Russia.

As opposed to the country with the tanks and vehicles adorning the nazi Wehrmacht's balkenkreuz and the divisions badged with the nazi black sun and wolfsangel insignia. The party that regards Stepan Bandera, one of the very worst genocidal maniacs of WW2, leader of the OUN/UPA whose savagery against Jews and Poles shocked even the SS, as its national hero and founding father. Yeah, clearly Russia then...

Yes, the country run by a single strongman who can't be voted out and that invaded its neighbor is more fascist than the one that didn't do any of that. Funny how that works.

Putin can be voted out,

LOL
The Economist disagrees with your unscholarly opinion above:

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2016/02/04/vladimir-putins-unshakeable-popularity



I wouldn't describe myself as a cowering wimp, but if I'm in Russia and somebody asks me what I think of Putin (the President and former KGB agent), I give them the thumbs up. In an election, I would either vote for him or just "forget" to vote. Then I would go on with my everyday life in that "prosperous" country with the great economy.

And I bet I believe in the promise of citizens exercising their democratic rights more than the average Russian.

The polling was done by Levada, which is a liberal NGO outfit based in Moscow that is not particularly friendly to Putin. As well your theory of persecution from un-kosher opinions were true, you wouldn't have had 40% of respondents not on board with comrade Vlad in the periods where his popularity has dipped.

Here is one of the main reasons Putin is popular in Russia:

The Russian state, economy and society completely collapsed in the 1990s, under neoliberal policies implemented by western advisers that were meant to crash their society in order to pillage Russian resources. Russia is the richest country in the world in terms of mineral resources, as well as heavy industries. Those assets were bought off for pennies on the dollar and most of the capital proceeds found their way to London, NYC etc.

In the mid-90s, 45% of Russia's population lived below the poverty line, crime rates skyrocketed, you had complete societal collapse and the worst form of oligarchy every seen in Europe. Putin came in and righted their ship, and today Russia's poverty rate is lower than that of the UK, France, US or Germany. That is why Putin is vey popular in Russia, especially among those who lived through the 90s.

Note as well that the main opposition to Putin in Russia is from the right, the hardcore nationalists who view him as a wimp and want Ukraine overrun, and the hard traditional left, communists nostalgic for the USSR. The liberal segment is small and confined to younger people in the two big cities, a pretty small demographic.

Cal88
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sycasey said:

OneKeg said:

Russia is 146 out of 167. "Authoritarian."

But that makes Putin look bad. So I'm sure that in this capacity, the Economist is not to be trusted.

It only makes Putin look bad if you think democracy is better than authoritarianism, which seems to be a value not all people here share.

The US today is an oligarchy. US foreign policy is run by the MIC, US healthcare policy by big pharma and the corporate insurance and healthcare industries, industrial policy by Wall Street vulture capital.

The economic engine that has built up the world's greatest economy and a vibrant society has been hindered, to the point where basic and critical functions like infrastructure building and maintenance or higher education have been severely hampered.

You look at that Economist democracy ranking and see highly functional countries like the UAE or China, whose citizens have prospered tremendously in past decades, and whose governments have popularity rates unheard of in the "democratic" West, these countries are at the bottom of the rankings.
sycasey
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Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

OneKeg said:

Russia is 146 out of 167. "Authoritarian."

But that makes Putin look bad. So I'm sure that in this capacity, the Economist is not to be trusted.

It only makes Putin look bad if you think democracy is better than authoritarianism, which seems to be a value not all people here share.

The US today is an oligarchy. US foreign policy is run by the MIC, US healthcare policy by big pharma and the corporate insurance and healthcare industries, industrial policy by Wall Street vulture capital.

The economic engine that has built up the world's greatest economy and a vibrant society has been hindered, to the point where basic and critical functions like infrastructure building and maintenance or higher education have been severely hampered.

You look at that Economist democracy ranking and see highly functional countries like the UAE or China, whose citizens have prospered tremendously in past decades, and whose governments have popularity rates unheard of in the "democratic" West, these countries are at the bottom of the rankings.
Thanks for once again arguing that authoritarian regimes result in better lives for their citizens. I see which side you're on.
Eastern Oregon Bear
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sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

OneKeg said:

Russia is 146 out of 167. "Authoritarian."

But that makes Putin look bad. So I'm sure that in this capacity, the Economist is not to be trusted.

It only makes Putin look bad if you think democracy is better than authoritarianism, which seems to be a value not all people here share.

The US today is an oligarchy. US foreign policy is run by the MIC, US healthcare policy by big pharma and the corporate insurance and healthcare industries, industrial policy by Wall Street vulture capital.

The economic engine that has built up the world's greatest economy and a vibrant society has been hindered, to the point where basic and critical functions like infrastructure building and maintenance or higher education have been severely hampered.

You look at that Economist democracy ranking and see highly functional countries like the UAE or China, whose citizens have prospered tremendously in past decades, and whose governments have popularity rates unheard of in the "democratic" West, these countries are at the bottom of the rankings.
Thanks for once again arguing that authoritarian regimes result in better lives for their citizens. I see which side you're on.
Quality of life considerations are for losers.
Cal88
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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

OneKeg said:

Russia is 146 out of 167. "Authoritarian."

But that makes Putin look bad. So I'm sure that in this capacity, the Economist is not to be trusted.

It only makes Putin look bad if you think democracy is better than authoritarianism, which seems to be a value not all people here share.

The US today is an oligarchy. US foreign policy is run by the MIC, US healthcare policy by big pharma and the corporate insurance and healthcare industries, industrial policy by Wall Street vulture capital.

The economic engine that has built up the world's greatest economy and a vibrant society has been hindered, to the point where basic and critical functions like infrastructure building and maintenance or higher education have been severely hampered.

You look at that Economist democracy ranking and see highly functional countries like the UAE or China, whose citizens have prospered tremendously in past decades, and whose governments have popularity rates unheard of in the "democratic" West, these countries are at the bottom of the rankings.
Thanks for once again arguing that authoritarian regimes result in better lives for their citizens. I see which side you're on.
Quality of life considerations are for losers.

Home ownership rates, crime rates, access to higher education, quality public transit, purchasing power growth/decline, infrastructure, income tax levels, these things do matter.
sycasey
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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

OneKeg said:

Russia is 146 out of 167. "Authoritarian."

But that makes Putin look bad. So I'm sure that in this capacity, the Economist is not to be trusted.

It only makes Putin look bad if you think democracy is better than authoritarianism, which seems to be a value not all people here share.

The US today is an oligarchy. US foreign policy is run by the MIC, US healthcare policy by big pharma and the corporate insurance and healthcare industries, industrial policy by Wall Street vulture capital.

The economic engine that has built up the world's greatest economy and a vibrant society has been hindered, to the point where basic and critical functions like infrastructure building and maintenance or higher education have been severely hampered.

You look at that Economist democracy ranking and see highly functional countries like the UAE or China, whose citizens have prospered tremendously in past decades, and whose governments have popularity rates unheard of in the "democratic" West, these countries are at the bottom of the rankings.
Thanks for once again arguing that authoritarian regimes result in better lives for their citizens. I see which side you're on.
Quality of life considerations are for losers.

Personal freedom and human rights are for losers.
6
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sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:



If there's a country most behaving like fascists in this conflict, it's clearly Russia.

As opposed to the country with the tanks and vehicles adorning the nazi Wehrmacht's balkenkreuz and the divisions badged with the nazi black sun and wolfsangel insignia. The party that regards Stepan Bandera, one of the very worst genocidal maniacs of WW2, leader of the OUN/UPA whose savagery against Jews and Poles shocked even the SS, as its national hero and founding father. Yeah, clearly Russia then...

Yes, the country run by a single strongman who can't be voted out and that invaded its neighbor is more fascist than the one that didn't do any of that. Funny how that works.

Putin can be voted out,

LOL
Zelensky can't be voted out though. How very Emperor Palpatine of him.
https://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-hold-elections-war-ends-214700850.html


Why, that sounds just like what your Democratic Party told us Trump would do as he established his fascist dictatorship. Is this what Dumbocrats like you are talking about when you talk about democracy?


Cal88
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sycasey said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

OneKeg said:

Russia is 146 out of 167. "Authoritarian."

But that makes Putin look bad. So I'm sure that in this capacity, the Economist is not to be trusted.

It only makes Putin look bad if you think democracy is better than authoritarianism, which seems to be a value not all people here share.

The US today is an oligarchy. US foreign policy is run by the MIC, US healthcare policy by big pharma and the corporate insurance and healthcare industries, industrial policy by Wall Street vulture capital.

The economic engine that has built up the world's greatest economy and a vibrant society has been hindered, to the point where basic and critical functions like infrastructure building and maintenance or higher education have been severely hampered.

You look at that Economist democracy ranking and see highly functional countries like the UAE or China, whose citizens have prospered tremendously in past decades, and whose governments have popularity rates unheard of in the "democratic" West, these countries are at the bottom of the rankings.
Thanks for once again arguing that authoritarian regimes result in better lives for their citizens. I see which side you're on.
Quality of life considerations are for losers.

Personal freedom and human rights are for losers.

Julian Assange has entered the chatroom.
BearHunter
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sycasey said:


If there's a country most behaving like fascists in this conflict, it's clearly Russia.
How about the U.S. Democratic Party?
sycasey
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

OneKeg said:

Russia is 146 out of 167. "Authoritarian."

But that makes Putin look bad. So I'm sure that in this capacity, the Economist is not to be trusted.

It only makes Putin look bad if you think democracy is better than authoritarianism, which seems to be a value not all people here share.

The US today is an oligarchy. US foreign policy is run by the MIC, US healthcare policy by big pharma and the corporate insurance and healthcare industries, industrial policy by Wall Street vulture capital.

The economic engine that has built up the world's greatest economy and a vibrant society has been hindered, to the point where basic and critical functions like infrastructure building and maintenance or higher education have been severely hampered.

You look at that Economist democracy ranking and see highly functional countries like the UAE or China, whose citizens have prospered tremendously in past decades, and whose governments have popularity rates unheard of in the "democratic" West, these countries are at the bottom of the rankings.
Thanks for once again arguing that authoritarian regimes result in better lives for their citizens. I see which side you're on.
Quality of life considerations are for losers.

Personal freedom and human rights are for losers.

Julian Assange has entered the chatroom.

Along with these 500 or so other guys.

https://apnews.com/article/russia-crackdown-prison-opposition-putin-navalny-70485fee4b872c453334af37d1ea335a
Cal88
How long do you want to ignore this user?
sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

OneKeg said:

Russia is 146 out of 167. "Authoritarian."

But that makes Putin look bad. So I'm sure that in this capacity, the Economist is not to be trusted.

It only makes Putin look bad if you think democracy is better than authoritarianism, which seems to be a value not all people here share.

The US today is an oligarchy. US foreign policy is run by the MIC, US healthcare policy by big pharma and the corporate insurance and healthcare industries, industrial policy by Wall Street vulture capital.

The economic engine that has built up the world's greatest economy and a vibrant society has been hindered, to the point where basic and critical functions like infrastructure building and maintenance or higher education have been severely hampered.

You look at that Economist democracy ranking and see highly functional countries like the UAE or China, whose citizens have prospered tremendously in past decades, and whose governments have popularity rates unheard of in the "democratic" West, these countries are at the bottom of the rankings.
Thanks for once again arguing that authoritarian regimes result in better lives for their citizens. I see which side you're on.
Quality of life considerations are for losers.

Personal freedom and human rights are for losers.

Julian Assange has entered the chatroom.

Along with these 500 or so other guys.

https://apnews.com/article/russia-crackdown-prison-opposition-putin-navalny-70485fee4b872c453334af37d1ea335a

I guess the weather is a bit better in Guantanamo, but I am not sure I would actually trade Penal Colony No. 6 for this:


Top 10 Countries with the most people in prison
  • United States 2,068,800.
  • China 1,690,000.
  • Brazil 811,707.
  • India 478,600.
  • Russia 471,490.
  • Thailand 309,282.
  • Turkey 291,198.
  • Indonesia 266,259.
sycasey
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

OneKeg said:

Russia is 146 out of 167. "Authoritarian."

But that makes Putin look bad. So I'm sure that in this capacity, the Economist is not to be trusted.

It only makes Putin look bad if you think democracy is better than authoritarianism, which seems to be a value not all people here share.

The US today is an oligarchy. US foreign policy is run by the MIC, US healthcare policy by big pharma and the corporate insurance and healthcare industries, industrial policy by Wall Street vulture capital.

The economic engine that has built up the world's greatest economy and a vibrant society has been hindered, to the point where basic and critical functions like infrastructure building and maintenance or higher education have been severely hampered.

You look at that Economist democracy ranking and see highly functional countries like the UAE or China, whose citizens have prospered tremendously in past decades, and whose governments have popularity rates unheard of in the "democratic" West, these countries are at the bottom of the rankings.
Thanks for once again arguing that authoritarian regimes result in better lives for their citizens. I see which side you're on.
Quality of life considerations are for losers.

Personal freedom and human rights are for losers.

Julian Assange has entered the chatroom.

Along with these 500 or so other guys.

https://apnews.com/article/russia-crackdown-prison-opposition-putin-navalny-70485fee4b872c453334af37d1ea335a

I guess the weather is a bit better in Guantanamo, but I am not sure I would actually trade Penal Colony No. 6 for this:


Top 10 Countries with the most people in prison
  • United States 2,068,800.
  • China 1,690,000.
  • Brazil 811,707.
  • India 478,600.
  • Russia 471,490.
  • Thailand 309,282.
  • Turkey 291,198.
  • Indonesia 266,259.


Yes, the US has an issue with over-incarceration for minor offenses but I think you know this is a separate issue from whether or not the government is authoritarian.

Are you saying you'd rather have Russia's system of government? Let's get down to brass tacks here.
Cal88
How long do you want to ignore this user?
sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

OneKeg said:

Russia is 146 out of 167. "Authoritarian."

But that makes Putin look bad. So I'm sure that in this capacity, the Economist is not to be trusted.

It only makes Putin look bad if you think democracy is better than authoritarianism, which seems to be a value not all people here share.

The US today is an oligarchy. US foreign policy is run by the MIC, US healthcare policy by big pharma and the corporate insurance and healthcare industries, industrial policy by Wall Street vulture capital.

The economic engine that has built up the world's greatest economy and a vibrant society has been hindered, to the point where basic and critical functions like infrastructure building and maintenance or higher education have been severely hampered.

You look at that Economist democracy ranking and see highly functional countries like the UAE or China, whose citizens have prospered tremendously in past decades, and whose governments have popularity rates unheard of in the "democratic" West, these countries are at the bottom of the rankings.
Thanks for once again arguing that authoritarian regimes result in better lives for their citizens. I see which side you're on.
Quality of life considerations are for losers.

Personal freedom and human rights are for losers.

Julian Assange has entered the chatroom.

Along with these 500 or so other guys.

https://apnews.com/article/russia-crackdown-prison-opposition-putin-navalny-70485fee4b872c453334af37d1ea335a

I guess the weather is a bit better in Guantanamo, but I am not sure I would actually trade Penal Colony No. 6 for this:


Top 10 Countries with the most people in prison
  • United States 2,068,800.
  • China 1,690,000.
  • Brazil 811,707.
  • India 478,600.
  • Russia 471,490.
  • Thailand 309,282.
  • Turkey 291,198.
  • Indonesia 266,259.


Yes, the US has an issue with over-incarceration for minor offenses but I think you know this is a separate issue from whether or not the government is authoritarian.

Are you saying you'd rather have Russia's system of government? Let's get down to brass tacks here.

Russia's system of government is more adapted to Russian culture, history and character. You could say the same about the Chinese system or the UAE's, all of which qualify as "authoritarian".

I would like to have a better system of government that doesn't foment and fight endless wars abroad, and respects its own historical standards of good governance and human rights.
dimitrig
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

OneKeg said:

Russia is 146 out of 167. "Authoritarian."

But that makes Putin look bad. So I'm sure that in this capacity, the Economist is not to be trusted.

It only makes Putin look bad if you think democracy is better than authoritarianism, which seems to be a value not all people here share.

The US today is an oligarchy. US foreign policy is run by the MIC, US healthcare policy by big pharma and the corporate insurance and healthcare industries, industrial policy by Wall Street vulture capital.

The economic engine that has built up the world's greatest economy and a vibrant society has been hindered, to the point where basic and critical functions like infrastructure building and maintenance or higher education have been severely hampered.

You look at that Economist democracy ranking and see highly functional countries like the UAE or China, whose citizens have prospered tremendously in past decades, and whose governments have popularity rates unheard of in the "democratic" West, these countries are at the bottom of the rankings.
Thanks for once again arguing that authoritarian regimes result in better lives for their citizens. I see which side you're on.
Quality of life considerations are for losers.

Personal freedom and human rights are for losers.

Julian Assange has entered the chatroom.

Along with these 500 or so other guys.

https://apnews.com/article/russia-crackdown-prison-opposition-putin-navalny-70485fee4b872c453334af37d1ea335a

I guess the weather is a bit better in Guantanamo, but I am not sure I would actually trade Penal Colony No. 6 for this:


Top 10 Countries with the most people in prison
  • United States 2,068,800.
  • China 1,690,000.
  • Brazil 811,707.
  • India 478,600.
  • Russia 471,490.
  • Thailand 309,282.
  • Turkey 291,198.
  • Indonesia 266,259.


Yes, the US has an issue with over-incarceration for minor offenses but I think you know this is a separate issue from whether or not the government is authoritarian.

Are you saying you'd rather have Russia's system of government? Let's get down to brass tacks here.

Russia's system of government is more adapted to Russian culture, history and character. You could say the same about the Chinese system or the UAE's, all of which qualify as "authoritarian".

I would like to have a better system of government that doesn't foment and fight endless wars abroad, and respects its own historical standards of good governance and human rights.


You're French. France's monarchy was well adapted to French history, culture, and character. Until it wasn't. Same with Russia, China, Japan, and even the US at one point under the English monarchy.

Russia and China are no more adapted to corrupt authoritarian governments as a result of their histories of being monarchies than the US or France is.

sycasey
How long do you want to ignore this user?
dimitrig said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

OneKeg said:

Russia is 146 out of 167. "Authoritarian."

But that makes Putin look bad. So I'm sure that in this capacity, the Economist is not to be trusted.

It only makes Putin look bad if you think democracy is better than authoritarianism, which seems to be a value not all people here share.

The US today is an oligarchy. US foreign policy is run by the MIC, US healthcare policy by big pharma and the corporate insurance and healthcare industries, industrial policy by Wall Street vulture capital.

The economic engine that has built up the world's greatest economy and a vibrant society has been hindered, to the point where basic and critical functions like infrastructure building and maintenance or higher education have been severely hampered.

You look at that Economist democracy ranking and see highly functional countries like the UAE or China, whose citizens have prospered tremendously in past decades, and whose governments have popularity rates unheard of in the "democratic" West, these countries are at the bottom of the rankings.
Thanks for once again arguing that authoritarian regimes result in better lives for their citizens. I see which side you're on.
Quality of life considerations are for losers.

Personal freedom and human rights are for losers.

Julian Assange has entered the chatroom.

Along with these 500 or so other guys.

https://apnews.com/article/russia-crackdown-prison-opposition-putin-navalny-70485fee4b872c453334af37d1ea335a

I guess the weather is a bit better in Guantanamo, but I am not sure I would actually trade Penal Colony No. 6 for this:


Top 10 Countries with the most people in prison
  • United States 2,068,800.
  • China 1,690,000.
  • Brazil 811,707.
  • India 478,600.
  • Russia 471,490.
  • Thailand 309,282.
  • Turkey 291,198.
  • Indonesia 266,259.


Yes, the US has an issue with over-incarceration for minor offenses but I think you know this is a separate issue from whether or not the government is authoritarian.

Are you saying you'd rather have Russia's system of government? Let's get down to brass tacks here.

Russia's system of government is more adapted to Russian culture, history and character. You could say the same about the Chinese system or the UAE's, all of which qualify as "authoritarian".

I would like to have a better system of government that doesn't foment and fight endless wars abroad, and respects its own historical standards of good governance and human rights.


You're French. France's monarchy was well adapted to French history, culture, and character. Until it wasn't. Same with Russia, China, Japan, and even the US at one point under the English monarchy.

Russia and China are no more adapted to corrupt authoritarian governments as a result of their histories of being monarchies than the US or France is.
Wasn't 88 just arguing against the idea that Russia is "bad" and warlike because of some inherent cultural nature they have? Now the argument is that Russia's culture means they should live under authoritarians? That sounds bad too!

. . . unless you don't think authoritarian governments are bad.
Cal88
How long do you want to ignore this user?
dimitrig said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

OneKeg said:

Russia is 146 out of 167. "Authoritarian."

But that makes Putin look bad. So I'm sure that in this capacity, the Economist is not to be trusted.

It only makes Putin look bad if you think democracy is better than authoritarianism, which seems to be a value not all people here share.

The US today is an oligarchy. US foreign policy is run by the MIC, US healthcare policy by big pharma and the corporate insurance and healthcare industries, industrial policy by Wall Street vulture capital.

The economic engine that has built up the world's greatest economy and a vibrant society has been hindered, to the point where basic and critical functions like infrastructure building and maintenance or higher education have been severely hampered.

You look at that Economist democracy ranking and see highly functional countries like the UAE or China, whose citizens have prospered tremendously in past decades, and whose governments have popularity rates unheard of in the "democratic" West, these countries are at the bottom of the rankings.
Thanks for once again arguing that authoritarian regimes result in better lives for their citizens. I see which side you're on.
Quality of life considerations are for losers.

Personal freedom and human rights are for losers.

Julian Assange has entered the chatroom.

Along with these 500 or so other guys.

https://apnews.com/article/russia-crackdown-prison-opposition-putin-navalny-70485fee4b872c453334af37d1ea335a

I guess the weather is a bit better in Guantanamo, but I am not sure I would actually trade Penal Colony No. 6 for this:


Top 10 Countries with the most people in prison
  • United States 2,068,800.
  • China 1,690,000.
  • Brazil 811,707.
  • India 478,600.
  • Russia 471,490.
  • Thailand 309,282.
  • Turkey 291,198.
  • Indonesia 266,259.


Yes, the US has an issue with over-incarceration for minor offenses but I think you know this is a separate issue from whether or not the government is authoritarian.

Are you saying you'd rather have Russia's system of government? Let's get down to brass tacks here.

Russia's system of government is more adapted to Russian culture, history and character. You could say the same about the Chinese system or the UAE's, all of which qualify as "authoritarian".

I would like to have a better system of government that doesn't foment and fight endless wars abroad, and respects its own historical standards of good governance and human rights.


You're French. France's monarchy was well adapted to French history, culture, and character. Until it wasn't. Same with Russia, China, Japan, and even the US at one point under the English monarchy.

Russia and China are no more adapted to corrupt authoritarian governments as a result of their histories of being monarchies than the US or France is.


Countries like France, Russia or China have had very turbulent and complex recent histories, while that of the US has been relatively a lot more stable since its inception as a country.

I am not sure if China's government is more corrupt than that of the US, that's debatable.

Russia's government today certainly is a lot less corrupt than it was a decade or two ago, and far, far less authoritarian than it was under communism. They do have direct universal suffrage elections for their parliament and president, so I am not sure if "authoritarian" actually is a proper qualifier for the Russian government.
Cal88
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Speaking of authoritarianism, American blogger Gonzalo Lira, whose wife is Ukrainian, and was living in Ukraine, has been detained and tortured, and will receive a sentence of 5 to 8 years in labor camp, for having criticized the Ukrainian government:

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