Cal88 said:

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Very significant change in the situation with Poland essentially tapping out. Their president threw Ukraine under the bus, comparing it to a drowning man that could drag its rescuers into the abyss with him. Poland is also cutting all aid to Polish refugees, no financial support or free healthcare etc.

Until recently, Poland was one of Ukraine’s strongest allies in the war. Now Polish President Andrzej Duda compares Ukraine to a desperate drowning person who can pull the rescuer down with them. pic.twitter.com/JzjiGlp5Rn

— David Sacks (@DavidSacks) September 21, 2023

Poland has already lost over 10,000 soldiers in Ukraine, there have been some tensions over Poles getting mired in Ukrainian reckless and wasteful military tactics both in Bakhmut and currently in Zaporizhia. Poland now understands that there is no military solution for Ukraine in this war and is now tapping out. The war in Poland is unpopular, much like it is in Czechia, Hungary or Slovakia, as is the economic strain of supporting millions of Ukrainian refugees in a recession with unprecedented inflation levels is being felt, and with the elections coming in October, Polish president Duda is cutting his losses.

This looks like the beginning of the end of the war.

---

Big. Which gives Germany cover to back off.

Don't forget, Europe was saved last year by a mild winter. I'm not sure how many of their new LNG terminals are functional.

They're not even close to getting anywhere near Tokmak, they are still in the "crumple zone", dying by the tens of thousands since June, in wave after wave of reckless frontal assaults on heavily-mined open steppe without any air cover. The thing is, the Russian first line of defense was meant to be breached and they're not even getting beyond that.

NATO leadership is a mix of hardened ideologues like Nuland or McFaul who have a very limited understanding of military subjects. They believe that the Russians are impotent, unmotivated backwards people and that NATO's cultural superiority will automatically translate into military technological superiority through its proxy army in Ukraine, so they've kept pushing Ukraine into a senseless assault believing that the Russians were going to fold.

Hersh: The war is over - Russia has won, Ukrainian soldiers don't want to die anymore

A WELL-KNOWN AMERICAN JOURNALIST CLAIMS THAT HE IS ONLY TRANSMITTING THE KNOWLEDGE OF A SENIOR US INTELLIGENCE OFFICIAL

He claims that the main Ukrainian units have stopped the… pic.twitter.com/G3SHh5u7Ia

— Sprinter (@Sprinter99800) September 21, 2023

The war is definitely not over yet, but it is the beginning of the end, and what realists knew before the war, that Russia has escalatory dominance and Ukraine has no military solution to this conflict, is now being confirmed. Ukraine is more and more exhausted and the Russians are still building up their reserves, perhaps in anticipation of their own major counteroffensive sometime next year.

Ukraine and its backers missed several golden opportunities to end the war in a reasonably good settlement which would have prevented further carnage and limited Ukrainian losses. Now that Russia has the upper hand, they are not likely to settle for anything short of Ukrainian disarmament and perhaps regime change in Kiev.

Cal88 said:

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They're not even close to getting anywhere near Tokmak, they are still in the "crumple zone", dying by the tens of thousands since June, in wave after wave of reckless frontal assaults on heavily-mined open steppe without any air cover. The thing is, the Russian first line of defense was meant to be breached and they're not even getting beyond that.

NATO leadership is a mix of hardened ideologues like Nuland or McFaul who have a very limited understanding of military subjects. They believe that the Russians are impotent, unmotivated backwards people and that NATO's cultural superiority will automatically translate into military technological superiority through its proxy army in Ukraine, so they've kept pushing Ukraine into a senseless assault believing that the Russians were going to fold.

Hersh: The war is over - Russia has won, Ukrainian soldiers don't want to die anymore

A WELL-KNOWN AMERICAN JOURNALIST CLAIMS THAT HE IS ONLY TRANSMITTING THE KNOWLEDGE OF A SENIOR US INTELLIGENCE OFFICIAL

He claims that the main Ukrainian units have stopped the… pic.twitter.com/G3SHh5u7Ia

— Sprinter (@Sprinter99800) September 21, 2023

The war is definitely not over yet, but it is the beginning of the end, and what realists knew before the war, that Russia has escalatory dominance and Ukraine has no military solution to this conflict, is now being confirmed. Ukraine is more and more exhausted and the Russians are still building up their reserves, perhaps in anticipation of their own major counteroffensive sometime next year.

Ukraine and its backers missed several golden opportunities to end the war in a reasonably good settlement which would have prevented further carnage and limited Ukrainian losses. Now that Russia has the upper hand, they are not likely to settle for anything short of Ukrainian disarmament and perhaps regime change in Kiev.

---

"[O]ver the past decade, Hersh has grown increasingly conspiratorial and untrustworthy in his reporting, adopting bizarre theories that threaten to seriously compromise his legacy."

Link:
https://jeremyfassler.medium.com/the-sad-downfall-of-seymour-hersh-4397459dba31

Hersh is mostly relaying the analyses of high-level US intelligence officers that are part of his decades-old rolodex. The notion that he's making s**t up or that he's gone senile simply because his sources are reporting facts that go completely counter the popular narrative really is the only senile aspect in this story. And the fact that he is getting a lot of flak for this by MIC hacks like that Fassler dude only tells you that Hersh is right over the target...

If this war is still raging on and mired in a stalemate this time next year, you can come back and pile on Hersh. If the military situation is increasingly one-sided though and the outcome not much in doubt though, will you admit that Hersh's journalism was proven right once again, his analysis correct and his sources legit??

Just a reminder of who Seymour Hersh's "sources" are now:

Sy Hersh catfished by a Russian pretending to be a U.S. official actually was on my Bingo card. https://t.co/sl0KO48e1s

— Michael Weiss (@michaeldweiss) July 27, 2023

sycasey said:

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Just a reminder of who Seymour Hersh's "sources" are now:

Sy Hersh catfished by a Russian pretending to be a U.S. official actually was on my Bingo card. https://t.co/sl0KO48e1s

— Michael Weiss (@michaeldweiss) July 27, 2023

---

Right, this is the hack claiming that Hersh is a Russian dupe:

U.S. knew about Ukrainian plot to bomb Nord Stream pipeline months before attack - The Washington Post https://t.co/8pUA3XAPqw

— Michael Weiss (@michaeldweiss) June 6, 2023

So according to Mike here, Ukraine bombed Nordstream, they had a team of 5 guys and a woman on a sailboat sail near Danish territorial waters, sneaking into the most surveilled part of the Baltic Sea, and were able to place hundreds of pounds of explosives over a set of pipelines 80 meters under water from said sailboat.

Ignoring the evidence against Hersh to attack the guy who didn't even make the original claim, just retweeted it. Typical.

sycasey said:

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Ignoring the evidence against Hersh to attack the guy who didn't even make the original claim, just retweeted it. Typical.

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What evidence, flimsy innuendos by media hacks?

And are you really trying to make a distinction between retweeting and making the original claim?! This has got to be a new low in preposterous nitpicking, even by your own abysmal standards of compulsive nitpicking.

Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Ignoring the evidence against Hersh to attack the guy who didn't even make the original claim, just retweeted it. Typical.

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What evidence, flimsy innuendos by media hacks?

And are you really trying to make a distinction between retweeting and making the original claim?! This has got to be a new low in preposterous nitpicking, even by your own abysmal standards of compulsive nitpicking.

---

Now feign anger and make insults. Also typical.

sycasey said:

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Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Ignoring the evidence against Hersh to attack the guy who didn't even make the original claim, just retweeted it. Typical.

---

What evidence, flimsy innuendos by media hacks?

And are you really trying to make a distinction between retweeting and making the original claim?! This has got to be a new low in preposterous nitpicking, even by your own abysmal standards of compulsive nitpicking.

---

Now feign anger and make insults. Also typical.

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Can't address the issues? No problem, go with the ad hominem and strawman combination, well done Sy.

Zippergate said:

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Poll of Germans and French shows a plurality blame the USA/NATO/Europe, not Russia.

https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2023/08/21/us-nato-responsible-ukraine-war-germany-france-poll/

---

It's really cool how good you are at being a troll on message boards. Amazing. Go Russia! You root for cool people and places. You're a good human.

blungld said:

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Zippergate said:

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Poll of Germans and French shows a plurality blame the USA/NATO/Europe, not Russia.

https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2023/08/21/us-nato-responsible-ukraine-war-germany-france-poll/

---

It's really cool how good you are at being a troll on message boards. Amazing. Go Russia! You root for cool people and places. You're a good human.

---

What kind of human would support pushing a country into a war they cannot win, a war that cost them 430,000 lives and counting, and that is literally wrecking it?

Wouldn't Ukraine have been better off laying off the Donbass and abiding by the Minsk agreements in '21, or signing the Istanbul peace treaty in '22?

Wouldn't Ukraine be better off stopping the bleeding right now? At what point do they start negotiating, 600,000 lives? 1 million lives?

Are we really helping them?

Cal88 said:

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blungld said:

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Zippergate said:

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Poll of Germans and French shows a plurality blame the USA/NATO/Europe, not Russia.

https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2023/08/21/us-nato-responsible-ukraine-war-germany-france-poll/

---

It's really cool how good you are at being a troll on message boards. Amazing. Go Russia! You root for cool people and places. You're a good human.

---

What kind of human would support pushing a country into a war they cannot win, a war that cost them 430,000 lives and counting, and that is literally wrecking it?

Wouldn't Ukraine have been better off laying off the Donbass and abiding by the Minsk agreements in '21, or signing the Istanbul peace treaty in '22?

Wouldn't Ukraine be better off stopping the bleeding right now? At what point do they start negotiating, 600,000 lives? 1 million lives?

Are we really helping them?

---

Ukraine can surrender anytime it wants just like Russia can withdraw anytime it wants.

F Russia

Cal88 said:

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What kind of human would support pushing a country into a war they cannot win, a war that cost them 430,000 lives and counting, and that is literally wrecking it?

Wouldn't Ukraine have been better off laying off the Donbass and abiding by the Minsk agreements in '21, or signing the Istanbul peace treaty in '22?

Wouldn't Ukraine be better off stopping the bleeding right now? At what point do they start negotiating, 600,000 lives? 1 million lives?

Are we really helping them?

---

It's called self-determination. Look into it.

And yes, we are helping them.

Any more dishonest questions?

blungld said:

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Cal88 said:

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What kind of human would support pushing a country into a war they cannot win, a war that cost them 430,000 lives and counting, and that is literally wrecking it?

Wouldn't Ukraine have been better off laying off the Donbass and abiding by the Minsk agreements in '21, or signing the Istanbul peace treaty in '22?

Wouldn't Ukraine be better off stopping the bleeding right now? At what point do they start negotiating, 600,000 lives? 1 million lives?

Are we really helping them?

---

It's called self-determination. Look into it.

And yes, we are helping them.

---

Does your concern for self-determination somehow not extend to the Donbass and Crimea? What kind of self-determination will Ukraine have after another more year of this?

The majority of Ukrainians voted for a peaceful resolution of their domestic ethnic conflict in previous elections. The ongoing Zelensky policy is 180 degrees away from the platform he run on.

Quote:

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Ukraine can surrender anytime it wants just like Russia can withdraw anytime it wants.

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Ukraine doesn't have agency, the majority of its people don't want to fight to the last man, and a large proportion of the country don't regard Stepan Bandera as their founding father.

Quote:

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Any more dishonest questions?

---

Everything about your position is driven by ideology and shaped by a narrative that is disconnected with the realities of this war. The basic understanding of there not being a military solution for Ukraine will continue to elude you until the last or next to last Ukrainian, as unfortunately it seems that this is where this war is headed.

blungld said:

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Zippergate said:

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Poll of Germans and French shows a plurality blame the USA/NATO/Europe, not Russia.

https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2023/08/21/us-nato-responsible-ukraine-war-germany-france-poll/

---

It's really cool how good you are at being a troll on message boards. Amazing. Go Russia! You root for cool people and places. You're a good human.

---

LOL. Thanks for the compliment. I suppose we should sanction the Europeans for being on Team Russia too. By the way, how are things in Naziland?

Canada celebrates Ukranian Nazi

Russia continues to get stronger.

Losing their Black Sea fleet HQ and other military admin centers makes them smarter because their leaders were ineffective.

Romanchuk is in charge of Russian forces in Zaporizhzhia where the main thrust of Ukraine’s counteroffensive is occurring. This suggests that it wasn’t just a strike on the Black Sea Fleet HQ, but timed to target key senior leaders during a meeting. https://t.co/VKN3vhSyJv

— Rob Lee (@RALee85) September 22, 2023

Regarding this:

"...it's the regional FSB headquarters that has been hit."

Ukraine has been making a sustained effort to destroy FSB HQ's in Russia to make it easier for the GUR strike teams to operate there. https://t.co/evbye0tpg6

— Trent Telenko (@TrentTelenko) September 24, 2023

Breakthrough near Verbove means Russia has Ukraine right where they want them.

NEW: ISW is now prepared to assess that Ukrainian forces have broken through Russian field fortifications west of #Verbove in western #Zaporizhia Oblast. 🧵(1/7)

Latest campaign assessment: https://t.co/my6TaNAzgu pic.twitter.com/HNBGW9XIZz

— ISW (@TheStudyofWar) September 24, 2023

Losing air defenses in Crimea saves Russia money. More #winning.

Russian air defense systems have been targeted by Ukraine over the last few months with strikes throughout occupied territory.

This map made with @bradyafr shows 25 geolocated strikes on Russian air defense systems since Ukraine’s counteroffensive began. pic.twitter.com/64SjBHDmzn

— Orion Intel (@Orion__int) September 23, 2023

Drawing Russiam troops in Bakhmut to continue to pretend it's a strategic success for Russia.

Budanov also explicitly confirmed that #Ukraine’s objective in #Bakhmut is to fix Russian forces. Ukraine’s fixing of Russian forces in Bakhmut may be alleviating pressure on the #Kupyansk frontline. 🧵https://t.co/BOLWOCfgqd https://t.co/Glyr27GLZN pic.twitter.com/dshYe6AuFj

— ISW (@TheStudyofWar) September 24, 2023

Defeat of Russia's 810th is addition by subtraction.

The Ukrainian counteroffensive in western #Zaporizhia Oblast has likely destroyed the Russian 810th Naval Infantry Brigade (Black Sea Fleet). Elements of the brigade have reportedly been operating in the Zaporizhia direction since March 2023 and in w. Zaporizhia since June 2023. https://t.co/9dvys5gJyN pic.twitter.com/3dIf7azqAF

— ISW (@TheStudyofWar) September 24, 2023

Why can't you all just accept that Russia won this war in the first 3 days and it's time for Ukraine to accept the propaganda?

Unit2Sucks said:

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Russia continues to get stronger.

Losing their Black Sea fleet HQ and other military admin centers makes them smarter because their leaders were ineffective.

---

Ukraine reports and amplifies every successful hit on social media, those kinds of sparse good news are the PR oxygen that keep their campaign going. But those kinds of attacks on their own equivalents have been happening with far greater frequency and intensity, every week for the last year, especially now that Russia has stepped up its drone production and use of gliding bombs, along with their own cruise missile attacks.

Quote:

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Breakthrough near Verbove means Russia has Ukraine right where they want them.

NEW: ISW is now prepared to assess that Ukrainian forces have broken through Russian field fortifications west of #Verbove in western #Zaporizhia Oblast. 🧵(1/7)

Latest campaign assessment: https://t.co/my6TaNAzgu pic.twitter.com/HNBGW9XIZz

— ISW (@TheStudyofWar) September 24, 2023

Drawing Russiam troops in Bakhmut to continue to pretend it's a strategic success for Russia.

---

Ukraine had repeatedly stated its ambitions to retake Bakhmut, but now the Bakhmut campaign has been downgraded to just a "fixing" operation, meant to distract the Russians?

Ukraine has been announcing breakthoughs in the south since their counteroffensive started in late Spring. Four months later at the start of Fall, none of those breakthroughs have turned out to be substantial. The latest breakthrough was supposed to be Robotyne, a small village they were supposed to have conquered where they have been taking heavy losses, as reported by 3 sources earlier today:


"The Russians Took Back Some Of The Positions At Robotyne."

"Ukrainian Recon Group Near Robotyne Suffers Terrible Fate | Ukraine Lost Another Leopard 2 Tank"

"No breakthrough, as Ukraine hits an iron wall"

Bottom line, they're still mired in one small outpost on the Russian first line of defense - 70,000 casualties and 4 months into their counteroffensive. The window is closing, with the mud season starting in mid-October.

Quote:

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Why can't you all just accept that Russia won this war in the first 3 days and it's time for Ukraine to accept the propaganda?

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In case you haven't noticed, this war is a war of attrition. It is being won by the side with more soldiers, more stand-off weapons. more means and more ammunition.

Cal88 said:

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Everything about your position is driven by ideology and shaped by a narrative that is disconnected with the realities of this war.

---

You and your sources do not own reality. Just because you come to a conclusion and people you can point to agree, does not make it so.

I am not driven by an "ideology." What a strange assertion. It is not an ideology to to defend countries that are invaded. Especially fledgling democratic countries being invaded by authoritarian anti-democratic countries. That is a moral position and a plain understanding of the facts. Not a narrative or an ideology. I am not parsing words or being coy with meaning and I feel very comfortable with my ethics and motivation and the macro conclusions I have drawn about good/bad, wrong/right as it applies to this conflict.

From an expert on the subject at one of the US's top political conferences that happens here in my town:

"What's at stake in Ukraine is the future of the free world."

Russian journalist, historian, TV and radio host Sergei Medvedev spoke those words during the virtual 2022 Camden Conference, Europe: Challenged at Home and Abroad, from his Moscow apartment, just two days after Russian forces attacked Ukraine. On Saturday, October 21, 2023, from 6:30 - 8 p.m., Medvedev will speak from the stage of the Camden Opera House, delivering a talk titled "Putin's World War III."

A frequent critic of Russian strongman Vladimir Putin, Medvedev said in that 2022 live interview that the invasion of Ukraine was a miscalculation that "could be the end game of Putin's regime" because of the enormous drain on Russia's resources and manpower and the sanctions slapped on Russia by the West. "I think, in the end, he's paranoid," said Medvedev. "This is not a metaphor, this is a diagnosis." And should Putin succeed in Ukraine, said Medvedev, "he will be up there at the gates of the Baltic from Kaliningrad, from the neighboring regions, and the gates of Poland, and this will be a direct confrontation with a NATO state." Shortly after that livestreamed appearance, Dr. Medvedev left Russia and is now based in Prague, where he teaches at Charles University.

Medvedev's live appearance at the Opera House, a presentation of the Camden Conference, coincides with the publication of his latest book, A War Made in Russia, which will be released in the U.S. in late September. In the book, Medvedev tackles important questions, including possible scenarios for ending the war in Ukraine. A book signing will follow in the Opera House's Tucker Room, sponsored by Arctic Tern Books.

Professor Medvedev earned a B.A. from Moscow University, an M.A. in International Affairs from Columbia University, and a Ph.D. in History at the Russian Academy of Sciences. He has taught at the Higher School of Economics in Moscow, and many universities across Europe. His previous book, The Return of the Russian Leviathan, was awarded the Pushkin House Book Prize and was translated into 12 languages. An Arctic enthusiast, Dr. Medvedev spoke at the all-virtual 2021 Camden Conference, The Geopolitics of the Arctic; he advocates international control over the region, including a ban on military activity, oil drilling and other economic exploitation.

blungld said:

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I am not driven by an "ideology." What a strange assertion. It is not an ideology to to defend countries that are invaded. Especially fledgling democratic countries being invaded by authoritarian anti-democratic countries. That is a moral position and a plain understanding of the facts. Not a narrative or an ideology. I am not parsing words or being coy with meaning and I feel very comfortable with my ethics and motivation and the macro conclusions I have drawn about good/bad, wrong/right as it applies to this conflict.

---

I mean, supporting democracy over authoritarianism is an ideology, just one that I assumed all of us here already believed in. Seems clear now that some of us don't.

"he will be up there at the gates of the Baltic from Kaliningrad, from the neighboring regions, and the gates of Poland, and this will be a direct confrontation with a NATO state."

Ukraine is NOT a member of NATO. Poland and the Baltics are. If Putin wants to enter into direct conflict with NATO, fine, so be it. There is no evidence, however, that that is his plan, such a move would serve no purpose, and it would be sheer lunacy on his part. The idea that we have to escalate the war in Ukraine to protect other NATO is emotionalism rooted in rabid anti-Russian bigotry.

Zippergate said:

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"he will be up there at the gates of the Baltic from Kaliningrad, from the neighboring regions, and the gates of Poland, and this will be a direct confrontation with a NATO state."

Ukraine is NOT a member of NATO. Poland and the Baltics are. If Putin wants to enter into direct conflict with NATO, fine, so be it. There is no evidence, however, that that is his plan, such a move would serve no purpose, and it would be sheer lunacy on his part. The idea that we have to escalate the war in Ukraine to protect other NATO is emotionalism rooted in rabid anti-Russian bigotry.

---

An excellent argument for why Ukraine should have been admitted to NATO.

blungld said:

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Cal88 said:

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Everything about your position is driven by ideology and shaped by a narrative that is disconnected with the realities of this war.

---

You and your sources do not own reality. Just because you come to a conclusion and people you can point to agree, does not make it so.

I am not driven by an "ideology." What a strange assertion. It is not an ideology to to defend countries that are invaded. Especially fledgling democratic countries being invaded by authoritarian anti-democratic countries. That is a moral position and a plain understanding of the facts. Not a narrative or an ideology. I am not parsing words or being coy with meaning and I feel very comfortable with my ethics and motivation and the macro conclusions I have drawn about good/bad, wrong/right as it applies to this conflict.

---

You and I obviously disagree on other things but on this one we are of a like mind.

Zippergate said:

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"he will be up there at the gates of the Baltic from Kaliningrad, from the neighboring regions, and the gates of Poland, and this will be a direct confrontation with a NATO state."

Ukraine is NOT a member of NATO. Poland and the Baltics are. If Putin wants to enter into direct conflict with NATO, fine, so be it. There is no evidence, however, that that is his plan, such a move would serve no purpose, and it would be sheer lunacy on his part. The idea that we have to escalate the war in Ukraine to protect other NATO is emotionalism rooted in rabid anti-Russian bigotry.

---

Putin's propaganda machine claims he is already fighting NATO.

Zippergate said:

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"he will be up there at the gates of the Baltic from Kaliningrad, from the neighboring regions, and the gates of Poland, and this will be a direct confrontation with a NATO state."

Ukraine is NOT a member of NATO. Poland and the Baltics are. If Putin wants to enter into direct conflict with NATO, fine, so be it. There is no evidence, however, that that is his plan, such a move would serve no purpose, and it would be sheer lunacy on his part. The idea that we have to escalate the war in Ukraine to protect other NATO is emotionalism rooted in rabid anti-Russian bigotry.

---

Putin's own words and writings say he wants to reunify the USSR. Many of the newer NATO members asked to join NATO precisely because they take him at his word. Putin has a current track record of initiating military actions that serve no purpose and are sheer lunacy. Sometimes people tell you who and what they are, you just have to be willing to believe them.

Arming a country so they can defend themselves is an escalation? Uh huh, sure, this is all our fault. .

Preventing escalation to a neighboring NATO country and not being legally obligated to come to their aid with boots on the ground is precisely a (THE?) reason to arm Ukraine. Stop Putin's naked aggression now in Ukraine when it only costs us money, not the flesh and blood of America's youth.

What U.S taxpayers are getting for their money in Ukraine | 60 Minutes - CBS News


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-aid-ukraine-60-minutes-transcript/

Yes, Cal88, you will have fun with it. Imagine Lindsey Graham and Elizabeth Warren on the same side of an issue. THE HORROR!

tequila4kapp said:

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Zippergate said:

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"he will be up there at the gates of the Baltic from Kaliningrad, from the neighboring regions, and the gates of Poland, and this will be a direct confrontation with a NATO state."

Ukraine is NOT a member of NATO. Poland and the Baltics are. If Putin wants to enter into direct conflict with NATO, fine, so be it. There is no evidence, however, that that is his plan, such a move would serve no purpose, and it would be sheer lunacy on his part. The idea that we have to escalate the war in Ukraine to protect other NATO is emotionalism rooted in rabid anti-Russian bigotry.

---

Putin's own words and writings say he wants to reunify the USSR. Many of the newer NATO members asked to join NATO precisely because they take him at his word. Putin has a current track record of initiating military actions that serve no purpose and are sheer lunacy. Sometimes people tell you who and what they are, you just have to be willing to believe them.

Arming a country so they can defend themselves is an escalation? Uh huh, sure, this is all our fault. .

Preventing escalation to a neighboring NATO country and not being legally obligated to come to their aid with boots on the ground is precisely a (THE?) reason to arm Ukraine. Stop Putin's naked aggression now in Ukraine when it only costs us money, not the flesh and blood of America's youth.

---

I call b.s. Let's see it. Hard to reconcile that view in light of the Minsk agreements and the peace offered early in the war that US/NATO rejected.

Zippergate said:

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tequila4kapp said:

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Zippergate said:

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"he will be up there at the gates of the Baltic from Kaliningrad, from the neighboring regions, and the gates of Poland, and this will be a direct confrontation with a NATO state."

Ukraine is NOT a member of NATO. Poland and the Baltics are. If Putin wants to enter into direct conflict with NATO, fine, so be it. There is no evidence, however, that that is his plan, such a move would serve no purpose, and it would be sheer lunacy on his part. The idea that we have to escalate the war in Ukraine to protect other NATO is emotionalism rooted in rabid anti-Russian bigotry.

---

Putin's own words and writings say he wants to reunify the USSR. Many of the newer NATO members asked to join NATO precisely because they take him at his word. Putin has a current track record of initiating military actions that serve no purpose and are sheer lunacy. Sometimes people tell you who and what they are, you just have to be willing to believe them.

Arming a country so they can defend themselves is an escalation? Uh huh, sure, this is all our fault. .

Preventing escalation to a neighboring NATO country and not being legally obligated to come to their aid with boots on the ground is precisely a (THE?) reason to arm Ukraine. Stop Putin's naked aggression now in Ukraine when it only costs us money, not the flesh and blood of America's youth.

---

I call b.s. Let's see it. Hard to reconcile that view in light of the Minsk agreements and the peace offered early in the war that US/NATO rejected.

---

Timeline summarized from the always authoritative Wikipedia:

• February 2014 - Russia invades Crimea
• April 2014 - The Donbas war starts when Russian back separatists seized government buildings.
• September 2014 - Minsk 1 signed. Fighting does not stop.
• January 2015 - Minsk cease fire completely collapses. DPR / separatists take the Donetsk airport in violation of the protocols and declare Minsk 1 void.
• February 2015 - Minsk 2 signed. Fighting subsides but never fully stops.
• March 2015 - Separatists declare Minsk 2 void. Nearly 7 years of attempted diplomacy ensues with assorted charges by both sides related to Minsk violations, etc.
• February 2022 - Russia invades Ukraine.

In summary, Russia invaded Ukraine and violated Ukraine's sovereignty before the 1st Minsk agreement. Russian back separatists declared Minsk 1 void. The 7 years of attempted diplomacy are classically characterized by both sides making charges against the other...you simply choose to accept the view that benevolent Russia's offer of peace was maliciously rejected by evil NATO.

tequila4kapp said:

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Zippergate said:

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tequila4kapp said:

---

Zippergate said:

---

"he will be up there at the gates of the Baltic from Kaliningrad, from the neighboring regions, and the gates of Poland, and this will be a direct confrontation with a NATO state."

Ukraine is NOT a member of NATO. Poland and the Baltics are. If Putin wants to enter into direct conflict with NATO, fine, so be it. There is no evidence, however, that that is his plan, such a move would serve no purpose, and it would be sheer lunacy on his part. The idea that we have to escalate the war in Ukraine to protect other NATO is emotionalism rooted in rabid anti-Russian bigotry.

---

Putin's own words and writings say he wants to reunify the USSR. Many of the newer NATO members asked to join NATO precisely because they take him at his word. Putin has a current track record of initiating military actions that serve no purpose and are sheer lunacy. Sometimes people tell you who and what they are, you just have to be willing to believe them.

Arming a country so they can defend themselves is an escalation? Uh huh, sure, this is all our fault. .

Preventing escalation to a neighboring NATO country and not being legally obligated to come to their aid with boots on the ground is precisely a (THE?) reason to arm Ukraine. Stop Putin's naked aggression now in Ukraine when it only costs us money, not the flesh and blood of America's youth.

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I call b.s. Let's see it. Hard to reconcile that view in light of the Minsk agreements and the peace offered early in the war that US/NATO rejected.

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Timeline summarized from the always authoritative Wikipedia:

• February 2014 - Russia invades Crimea
• April 2014 - The Donbas war starts when Russian back separatists seized government buildings.
• September 2014 - Minsk 1 signed. Fighting does not stop.
• January 2015 - Minsk cease fire completely collapses. DPR / separatists take the Donetsk airport in violation of the protocols and declare Minsk 1 void.
• February 2015 - Minsk 2 signed. Fighting subsides but never fully stops.
• March 2015 - Separatists declare Minsk 2 void. Nearly 7 years of attempted diplomacy ensues with assorted charges by both sides related to Minsk violations, etc.
• February 2022 - Russia invades Ukraine.

In summary, Russia invaded Ukraine and violated Ukraine's sovereignty before the 1st Minsk agreement. Russian back separatists declared Minsk 1 void. The 7 years of attempted diplomacy are classically characterized by both sides making charges against the other...you simply choose to accept the view that benevolent Russia's offer of peace was maliciously rejected by evil NATO.

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And what was the puppet gov't installed by neocon Nuland doing during this time? Perhaps it mattered to the millions of Russians in Ukraine.

The claim was that Putin is trying to recreate the Soviet Union and this is what prompted the Ukraine invasion. Sorry, merely reading that motive into Putin's actions is not evidence. Many respected policy experts warned that US/NATO policy was intentionally provoking Russia into conflict. I doubt the neocon sympathizers here even know what the Russia position is. And for the millionth time, this is not a defense of Putin or even of the invasion, it's an attack on the fairly tale narrative that the US is merely defending innocent democratic states from naked Russian aggression.