Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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Unlike Vietnam, there are no American soldiers being drafted to fight in Ukraine.

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There have been several hundred Americans KIAs in this conflict, and well over 100 French soldiers killed (over 50 legionnaires killed in one day in Kharkov earlier this year).

Large numbers of US/NATO crews are manning and directing weapon systems against the Russians, including yesterday's ATACMS cluster munition strike on a crowded beach in Crimea, which has killed at least two Russian children and injured over 100 beachgoers:

Ukrainian armed forces attacked Sevastopol's Uchkuyevsky beach in Crimea. The attack was carried out with ATACMS missiles. There are dead and wounded.

The number of injured is 124, including 27 children. Five children are in danger.

The first video shows the moment of the… pic.twitter.com/HMDXRCZ8Zq

— S p r i n t e r F a m i l y (@SprinterFamily) June 23, 2024

🇺🇸🇺🇦💥🇷🇺 The U.S. Air Force RQ-4B Global Hawk high-altitude reconnaissance drone provided the Ukrainian Armed Forces with information and coordinated today's ATACMS missile strike, which used cluster munitions, on residential areas of Sevastopol.

As a result of the attack, three… pic.twitter.com/MRZSE9Hekk

— DD Geopolitics (@DD_Geopolitics) June 23, 2024

This is a very big deal in Russia now.

---

Your tax dollars at work! (:-o

dajo9 said:

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Cal88 said:

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dajo9 said:

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You are really desperate to eat Putin's (who is dead) slop.

If you read the whole thing it is obvious they are talking about possible outcomes during a 1990 negotiation between the U.S. / NATO and the Soviet Union / Warsaw Pact. This outcome was not part of the final outcome as documented in the book "Not One Inch' and by Gorbachev himself.

Also, the Secretary of State is not authorized to make such commitments unilaterally, anyway. There is no treaty with any such commitment.

---

"NATO never said that!"
"OK maybe they did, but they didn't put it IN WRITING!"
"OK maybe they did, but it was just the United States Secretary of State!!"



AnD PuTiN iS sTiLL DeAd!!

---

All of that still adds up to Putin's (who is dead) claims being lies and propaganda and you and a bunch of other people on this board who hate America so much you are all siding with the enemy.

---

Please provide us with documentation of any lies that Putin has told in a foreign policy context. What international agreements has he broken? Please inform us.

Here's a quick list of the international agreements that the U.S. has ignored or violated:

• The U.S./NATO promise made to Mikhail Gorbachev that NATO would not expand Eastward ("Not one inch!") beyond the Eastern border of a reunified Germany; (This was a necessary condition for the reunification of Germany, since 27 million Russians died [8M military, 19M civilian] defending against the Nazi invasion.)
• The Minsk 1 & 2 agreements. Former German president Angele Merkel confirmed years ago that the EU/NATO didn't take the Minsk 1&2 cease-fire agreements seriously. Volodimyr Zelenskyy, who was elected as a Peace candidate, vowed to honor the Minsk agreements that protected ethnic Russians in Ukraine.
  He was quickly dissuaded from his peace position by neo-Nazi Right Sector leader Yarosh, who promised that if Zelenskyy forced the Right Sector, Azov, & other neo-Nazi militias to stand down & abide by the Minsk agreements, they would "hang him from a tree" on one of the main streets of Kyiv. The militias proceeded with their attacks on ethnic Russians in the Donbass, and continued to grow, arm, equip, and train -- many within the Ukrainian Army -- in order to mount an offensive to take the independent Donetsk & Luhansk oblasts, and drive ethnic Russians out the region (ethnic cleansing).

oski003 said:

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dajo9 said:

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oski003 said:

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dajo9 said:

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oski003 said:

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dajo9 said:

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Cal88 said:

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dajo9 said:

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You are really desperate to eat Putin's (who is dead) slop.

If you read the whole thing it is obvious they are talking about possible outcomes during a 1990 negotiation between the U.S. / NATO and the Soviet Union / Warsaw Pact. This outcome was not part of the final outcome as documented in the book "Not One Inch' and by Gorbachev himself.

Also, the Secretary of State is not authorized to make such commitments unilaterally, anyway. There is no treaty with any such commitment.

---

"NATO never said that!"
"OK maybe they did, but they didn't put it IN WRITING!"
"OK maybe they did, but it was just the United States Secretary of State!!"



AnD PuTiN iS sTiLL DeAd!!

---

All of that still adds up to Putin's (who is dead) claims being lies and propaganda and you and a bunch of other people on this board who hate America so much you are all siding with the enemy.

---

Who hates America more, Cal88 or the Vietnam War protestors?

---

Vietnam War protestors loved America.

---

Why do you think Cal88 and a bunch of other people on this board are siding with the enemy and therefore hate America so much? Didn't Vietnam war protestors also side with the enemy?

---

No, you don't seem to understand protest

---

"Many Americans opposed the war on moral grounds, appalled by the devastation and violence of the war. Others claimed the conflict was a war against Vietnamese independence or an intervention in a foreign civil war; others opposed it because they felt it lacked clear objectives and appeared to be unwinnable."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_United_States_involvement_in_the_Vietnam_War#:~:text=Many%20Americans%20opposed%20the%20war,and%20appeared%20to%20be%20unwinnable.

Which protestors loved America and which protestors were anti-America in your mind?

---

I'd say all of those groups saw America going in the wrong direction and loved America enough to protest. Time has proven them correct. It's hard to fathom equating blind obedience to our leaders as loving America, but I guess you're just a modern day Archie Bunker.

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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oski003 said:

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dajo9 said:

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oski003 said:

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dajo9 said:

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oski003 said:

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dajo9 said:

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Cal88 said:

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dajo9 said:

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You are really desperate to eat Putin's (who is dead) slop.

If you read the whole thing it is obvious they are talking about possible outcomes during a 1990 negotiation between the U.S. / NATO and the Soviet Union / Warsaw Pact. This outcome was not part of the final outcome as documented in the book "Not One Inch' and by Gorbachev himself.

Also, the Secretary of State is not authorized to make such commitments unilaterally, anyway. There is no treaty with any such commitment.

---

"NATO never said that!"
"OK maybe they did, but they didn't put it IN WRITING!"
"OK maybe they did, but it was just the United States Secretary of State!!"



AnD PuTiN iS sTiLL DeAd!!

---

All of that still adds up to Putin's (who is dead) claims being lies and propaganda and you and a bunch of other people on this board who hate America so much you are all siding with the enemy.

---

Who hates America more, Cal88 or the Vietnam War protestors?

---

Vietnam War protestors loved America.

---

Why do you think Cal88 and a bunch of other people on this board are siding with the enemy and therefore hate America so much? Didn't Vietnam war protestors also side with the enemy?

---

No, you don't seem to understand protest

---

"Many Americans opposed the war on moral grounds, appalled by the devastation and violence of the war. Others claimed the conflict was a war against Vietnamese independence or an intervention in a foreign civil war; others opposed it because they felt it lacked clear objectives and appeared to be unwinnable."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_United_States_involvement_in_the_Vietnam_War#:~:text=Many%20Americans%20opposed%20the%20war,and%20appeared%20to%20be%20unwinnable.

Which protestors loved America and which protestors were anti-America in your mind?

---

I'd say all of those groups saw America going in the wrong direction and loved America enough to protest. Time has proven them correct. It's hard to fathom equating blind obedience to our leaders as loving America, but I guess you're just a modern day Archie Bunker.

---

Dajo9 appears to be equating blind obedience to our leaders as loving America. Does that make him a modern day Archie Bunker?

Keep up with the conversation. Donny, you're out of your element.

oski003 said:

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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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oski003 said:

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dajo9 said:

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oski003 said:

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dajo9 said:

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oski003 said:

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dajo9 said:

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Cal88 said:

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dajo9 said:

---

You are really desperate to eat Putin's (who is dead) slop.

If you read the whole thing it is obvious they are talking about possible outcomes during a 1990 negotiation between the U.S. / NATO and the Soviet Union / Warsaw Pact. This outcome was not part of the final outcome as documented in the book "Not One Inch' and by Gorbachev himself.

Also, the Secretary of State is not authorized to make such commitments unilaterally, anyway. There is no treaty with any such commitment.

---

"NATO never said that!"
"OK maybe they did, but they didn't put it IN WRITING!"
"OK maybe they did, but it was just the United States Secretary of State!!"



AnD PuTiN iS sTiLL DeAd!!

---

All of that still adds up to Putin's (who is dead) claims being lies and propaganda and you and a bunch of other people on this board who hate America so much you are all siding with the enemy.

---

Who hates America more, Cal88 or the Vietnam War protestors?

---

Vietnam War protestors loved America.

---

Why do you think Cal88 and a bunch of other people on this board are siding with the enemy and therefore hate America so much? Didn't Vietnam war protestors also side with the enemy?

---

No, you don't seem to understand protest

---

"Many Americans opposed the war on moral grounds, appalled by the devastation and violence of the war. Others claimed the conflict was a war against Vietnamese independence or an intervention in a foreign civil war; others opposed it because they felt it lacked clear objectives and appeared to be unwinnable."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_United_States_involvement_in_the_Vietnam_War#:~:text=Many%20Americans%20opposed%20the%20war,and%20appeared%20to%20be%20unwinnable.

Which protestors loved America and which protestors were anti-America in your mind?

---

I'd say all of those groups saw America going in the wrong direction and loved America enough to protest. Time has proven them correct. It's hard to fathom equating blind obedience to our leaders as loving America, but I guess you're just a modern day Archie Bunker.

---

Dajo9 appears to be equating blind obedience to our leaders as loving America. Does that make him a modern day Archie Bunker?

Keep up with the conversation. Donny, you're out of your element.

---

You are stupid. That's why aunbear is the best poster here. You idiots don't deserve real discussion.

dajo9 said:

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oski003 said:

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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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oski003 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

oski003 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

oski003 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

You are really desperate to eat Putin's (who is dead) slop.

If you read the whole thing it is obvious they are talking about possible outcomes during a 1990 negotiation between the U.S. / NATO and the Soviet Union / Warsaw Pact. This outcome was not part of the final outcome as documented in the book "Not One Inch' and by Gorbachev himself.

Also, the Secretary of State is not authorized to make such commitments unilaterally, anyway. There is no treaty with any such commitment.

---

"NATO never said that!"
"OK maybe they did, but they didn't put it IN WRITING!"
"OK maybe they did, but it was just the United States Secretary of State!!"



AnD PuTiN iS sTiLL DeAd!!

---

All of that still adds up to Putin's (who is dead) claims being lies and propaganda and you and a bunch of other people on this board who hate America so much you are all siding with the enemy.

---

Who hates America more, Cal88 or the Vietnam War protestors?

---

Vietnam War protestors loved America.

---

Why do you think Cal88 and a bunch of other people on this board are siding with the enemy and therefore hate America so much? Didn't Vietnam war protestors also side with the enemy?

---

No, you don't seem to understand protest

---

"Many Americans opposed the war on moral grounds, appalled by the devastation and violence of the war. Others claimed the conflict was a war against Vietnamese independence or an intervention in a foreign civil war; others opposed it because they felt it lacked clear objectives and appeared to be unwinnable."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_United_States_involvement_in_the_Vietnam_War#:~:text=Many%20Americans%20opposed%20the%20war,and%20appeared%20to%20be%20unwinnable.

Which protestors loved America and which protestors were anti-America in your mind?

---

I'd say all of those groups saw America going in the wrong direction and loved America enough to protest. Time has proven them correct. It's hard to fathom equating blind obedience to our leaders as loving America, but I guess you're just a modern day Archie Bunker.

---

Dajo9 appears to be equating blind obedience to our leaders as loving America. Does that make him a modern day Archie Bunker?

Keep up with the conversation. Donny, you're out of your element.

---

You are stupid. That's why aunbear is the best poster here. You idiots don't deserve real discussion.

---

When logic fails, you throw insults. Are you sure that you and Aunbear aren't closet trumpists?

Being against America's sacrifice of Ukrainians to weaken Russia neither makes you Anti-America nor Pro-Russia.

oski003 said:

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dajo9 said:

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oski003 said:

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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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oski003 said:

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dajo9 said:

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oski003 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

oski003 said:

---

dajo9 said:

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Cal88 said:

---

dajo9 said:

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You are really desperate to eat Putin's (who is dead) slop.

If you read the whole thing it is obvious they are talking about possible outcomes during a 1990 negotiation between the U.S. / NATO and the Soviet Union / Warsaw Pact. This outcome was not part of the final outcome as documented in the book "Not One Inch' and by Gorbachev himself.

Also, the Secretary of State is not authorized to make such commitments unilaterally, anyway. There is no treaty with any such commitment.

---

"NATO never said that!"
"OK maybe they did, but they didn't put it IN WRITING!"
"OK maybe they did, but it was just the United States Secretary of State!!"



AnD PuTiN iS sTiLL DeAd!!

---

All of that still adds up to Putin's (who is dead) claims being lies and propaganda and you and a bunch of other people on this board who hate America so much you are all siding with the enemy.

---

Who hates America more, Cal88 or the Vietnam War protestors?

---

Vietnam War protestors loved America.

---

Why do you think Cal88 and a bunch of other people on this board are siding with the enemy and therefore hate America so much? Didn't Vietnam war protestors also side with the enemy?

---

No, you don't seem to understand protest

---

"Many Americans opposed the war on moral grounds, appalled by the devastation and violence of the war. Others claimed the conflict was a war against Vietnamese independence or an intervention in a foreign civil war; others opposed it because they felt it lacked clear objectives and appeared to be unwinnable."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_United_States_involvement_in_the_Vietnam_War#:~:text=Many%20Americans%20opposed%20the%20war,and%20appeared%20to%20be%20unwinnable.

Which protestors loved America and which protestors were anti-America in your mind?

---

I'd say all of those groups saw America going in the wrong direction and loved America enough to protest. Time has proven them correct. It's hard to fathom equating blind obedience to our leaders as loving America, but I guess you're just a modern day Archie Bunker.

---

Dajo9 appears to be equating blind obedience to our leaders as loving America. Does that make him a modern day Archie Bunker?

Keep up with the conversation. Donny, you're out of your element.

---

You are stupid. That's why aunbear is the best poster here. You idiots don't deserve real discussion.

---

When logic fails, you throw insults. Are you sure that you and Aunbear aren't closet trumpists?

Being against America's sacrifice of Ukrainians to weaken Russia neither makes you Anti-America nor Pro-Russia.

---

Yes, but you're too dumb to realize I haven't been saying that. Pushing Russian lies and propaganda is the issue, dummy. That's equivalent to carrying pictures of Chairman Mao.

Sad, I have to spell things out for you like you are a child.

dajo9 said:

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oski003 said:

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dajo9 said:

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oski003 said:

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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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oski003 said:

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dajo9 said:

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oski003 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

oski003 said:

---

dajo9 said:

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Cal88 said:

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dajo9 said:

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You are really desperate to eat Putin's (who is dead) slop.

If you read the whole thing it is obvious they are talking about possible outcomes during a 1990 negotiation between the U.S. / NATO and the Soviet Union / Warsaw Pact. This outcome was not part of the final outcome as documented in the book "Not One Inch' and by Gorbachev himself.

Also, the Secretary of State is not authorized to make such commitments unilaterally, anyway. There is no treaty with any such commitment.

---

"NATO never said that!"
"OK maybe they did, but they didn't put it IN WRITING!"
"OK maybe they did, but it was just the United States Secretary of State!!"



AnD PuTiN iS sTiLL DeAd!!

---

All of that still adds up to Putin's (who is dead) claims being lies and propaganda and you and a bunch of other people on this board who hate America so much you are all siding with the enemy.

---

Who hates America more, Cal88 or the Vietnam War protestors?

---

Vietnam War protestors loved America.

---

Why do you think Cal88 and a bunch of other people on this board are siding with the enemy and therefore hate America so much? Didn't Vietnam war protestors also side with the enemy?

---

No, you don't seem to understand protest

---

"Many Americans opposed the war on moral grounds, appalled by the devastation and violence of the war. Others claimed the conflict was a war against Vietnamese independence or an intervention in a foreign civil war; others opposed it because they felt it lacked clear objectives and appeared to be unwinnable."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_United_States_involvement_in_the_Vietnam_War#:~:text=Many%20Americans%20opposed%20the%20war,and%20appeared%20to%20be%20unwinnable.

Which protestors loved America and which protestors were anti-America in your mind?

---

I'd say all of those groups saw America going in the wrong direction and loved America enough to protest. Time has proven them correct. It's hard to fathom equating blind obedience to our leaders as loving America, but I guess you're just a modern day Archie Bunker.

---

Dajo9 appears to be equating blind obedience to our leaders as loving America. Does that make him a modern day Archie Bunker?

Keep up with the conversation. Donny, you're out of your element.

---

You are stupid. That's why aunbear is the best poster here. You idiots don't deserve real discussion.

---

When logic fails, you throw insults. Are you sure that you and Aunbear aren't closet trumpists?

Being against America's sacrifice of Ukrainians to weaken Russia neither makes you Anti-America nor Pro-Russia.

---

Yes, but you're too dumb to realize I haven't been saying that. Pushing Russian lies and propaganda is the issue, dummy. That's equivalent to carrying pictures of Chairman Mao.

Sad, I have to spell things out for you like you are a child.

---

As asked above,

"Many Americans opposed the war on moral grounds, appalled by the devastation and violence of the war. Others claimed the conflict was a war against Vietnamese independence or an intervention in a foreign civil war; others opposed it because they felt it lacked clear objectives and appeared to be unwinnable."

Which of the above protestors were Anti-American?

...

Yet, you couldn't answer the question. You couldn't because you are either incredibly stupid or purposely hiding that you are wrong. With the exception of folks that are solely peace loving anti-violence hippies, Vietnam protestors were also pushing Chinese and Russian lies and propaganda.

Sad, I have to spell things out for you like you are a child.

BREAKING:

🇷🇺🇺🇲🇺🇦 Russian Ministry of Defence regarding today's massacre in Crimea by Ukraine with cluster munitions:

"The US is responsible for this massacre, and they will get an answer"

"All flight missions for American ATACMS missiles are programmed by American… pic.twitter.com/h6NgUkubP9

— Megatron (@Megatron_ron) June 23, 2024

I'd be more on the side of the "anti-war" posters on this thread if it didn't seem like they're rootin' for Putin, as if he's some great guy, innocently wedged into a corner by evil Americans in the ""Democrat Party".

Condemn Putin and his ilk in Russia... and then we can talk about the nuances of this conflict... how everybody in Ukraine and in the US may not be so virtuous either.

dajo9 said:

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oski003 said:

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dajo9 said:

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oski003 said:

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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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Quote:

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No, you don't seem to understand protest

---

"Many Americans opposed the war on moral grounds, appalled by the devastation and violence of the war. Others claimed the conflict was a war against Vietnamese independence or an intervention in a foreign civil war; others opposed it because they felt it lacked clear objectives and appeared to be unwinnable."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_United_States_involvement_in_the_Vietnam_War#:~:text=Many%20Americans%20opposed%20the%20war,and%20appeared%20to%20be%20unwinnable.

Which protestors loved America and which protestors were anti-America in your mind?
I'd say all of those groups saw America going in the wrong direction and loved America enough to protest. Time has proven them correct. It's hard to fathom equating blind obedience to our leaders as loving America, but I guess you're just a modern day Archie Bunker.

---

Dajo9 appears to be equating blind obedience to our leaders as loving America. Does that make him a modern day Archie Bunker?

Keep up with the conversation. Donny, you're out of your element.

---

You are stupid. That's why aunbear is the best poster here. You idiots don't deserve real discussion.

---

When logic fails, you throw insults. Are you sure that you and Aunbear aren't closet trumpists?

Being against America's sacrifice of Ukrainians to weaken Russia neither makes you Anti-America nor Pro-Russia.

---

Yes, but you're too dumb to realize I haven't been saying that. Pushing Russian lies and propaganda is the issue, dummy. That's equivalent to carrying pictures of Chairman Mao.

Sad, I have to spell things out for you like you are a child.

---

What "Russian lies?" Please document.

The term "Propaganda" implies deception. Many in our foreign policy establishment have admitted that our goal is to weaken Russia; and others have made the case that spending tens of $billions on weapons for Ukraine is great for the U.S. because we can weaken Russia without endangering U.S. soldiers -- it's just Ukrainians who are being killed.

Everyone in the world can see what's happening. It's only older Americans & Europeans who are being propagandized into thinking that they (U.S. & EU) are the "good guys."

Big C said:

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I'd be more on the side of the "anti-war" posters on this thread if it didn't seem like they're rootin' for Putin, as if he's some great guy, innocently wedged into a corner by evil Americans in the ""Democrat Party".

Condemn Putin and his ilk in Russia... and then we can talk about the nuances of this conflict... how everybody in Ukraine and in the US may not be so virtuous either.

---

It's the U.S. NeoCons who deserve the condemnation. Their aggressive, imperialist foreign policy, and their stated goal of "Full-Spectrum Dominance" has brought us to this point.

The NeoCons started their project to bring Ukraine into NATO in 2003. The concept came from the NeoCons during the mid-1990s. They never stopped fighting the Cold War.

The U.S. NeoCons & NATO have been trying to convince the world that Ukraine should be a member of NATO, and that it's for the people of Ukraine alone to make that decision, with no regard for Russia's security concerns. For decades, they've tried to convince us that NATO is a purely defensive alliance, and that NATO & the U.S. present no threat to Russia.

OK, so the 12 CIA bases near the Ukraine/Russia border -- that's "all peaceful"... And now Biden has approved ATACMS missiles for Ukraine to strike targets deep inside Russia.

Are they still trying to assert that Ukraine is no threat to Russia??

Because it sure looks to me like the U.S. is STILL trying to provoke a war with Russia, like a guy who simply can't leave a bar until he gets into a fight. Launching U.S. ATACMS missiles deep into Russian territory sounds like a really bad idea.

They lied us into our unprovoked & illegal invasion of Iraq in 2003 (when Saddam Hussein was the personification of evil), and they're lying us into WW3 now (where Putin is the personification of evil). How can anyone take them seriously?

They've found the formula that works: If they oppose Trump, they can get away with ANYTHING.

These people are idiots.

The list of US-sponsored terrorist attacks continues to grow:

-Nordstream pipeline bombing
-Crocus City Hall massacre
-Belgorod incursion
-Sevastopol ATACMS

The US continue to provoke Putin, in the hopes that he will retaliate, so they can justify direct conflict with Russia. pic.twitter.com/vHcHu7L5TF

— Clandestine (@WarClandestine) June 23, 2024

US-trained Ukrainians, fired US-made missiles, with US assistance via satellite reconnaissance, into Russian territory, killing civilians/children.

Russian MIL report that US-made ATCAMS cluster missiles, assisted by US satellite reconnaissance, were fired by Ukraine into Sevastopol. Russia claim they intercepted the missiles, but the fragments of one of them broke off, detonated, and the explosion killed and injured civilians.

Big C said:

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I'd be more on the side of the "anti-war" posters on this thread if it didn't seem like they're rootin' for Putin, as if he's some great guy, innocently wedged into a corner by evil Americans in the ""Democrat Party".

Condemn Putin and his ilk in Russia... and then we can talk about the nuances of this conflict... how everybody in Ukraine and in the US may not be so virtuous either.

---

What specifically am I supposed to condemn him for?

- for taking back the historically Russian Crimea, a culturally Russian area that supported rejoining the Motherland?
- for protesting CIA meddling in Ukraine towards Russia?
- for NATO welching on their commitment to not move 'one inch eastward'?
- for Western Europe pretending to support Minsk I and II?
- for waiting 30 years to confront the West?
- for the West refusing to allow the newly constructed border country of Ukraine to stay neutral?

OK, reasonable question. But does one really take Kiev w 20K or 50K ill-equipped soldiers?

I believe Germany invaded countries w over one million soldiers.

Colonel McGregor suggests that Putin was trying to get Kiev's attention, that it wasn't a serious effort to overtake Kiev. To get them to negotiate. Make your own assessment. (Ukrainian citizens told me some of Putins soldiers allegedly had parade uniforms and only 3 days rations. Truth, or propoganda?)

Don't forget about four months prior Putin had again listed a set of demands - which are a starting point to for concrete negotiations.

We seem more interested in American global 'hegemony', which e plains over 299 worldwide military bases (And we're building up an expanded military base for 10,000 troops in Romania for a 'long war'.)

We refused to answer Putin directly, and the West was emboldened by Russia's slow start, with geniuses like Blinken, Austin, Nuland and Austin having key input.

movielover said:

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OK, reasonable question. But does one really take Kiev w 20K or 50K ill-equipped soldiers?

I believe Germany invaded countries w over one million soldiers.

Colonel McGregor suggests that Putin was trying to get Kiev's attention, that it wasn't a serious effort to overtake Kiev. To get them to negotiate. Make your own assessment. (Ukrainian citizens told me some of Putins soldiers allegedly had parade uniforms and only 3 days rations. Truth, or propoganda?)

Don't forget about four months prior Putin had again listed a set of demands - which and a point to start concrete negotiations.

We refused to answer Putin directly, and the Qest was emboldened by Russia's slow start, with geniuses like Blinken, Austin, Nuland and Austin having key input.

---

Yes, Putin misread the situation. Perhaps his intelligence thought they'd surrender to 50k troops. It was a very aggressive tactic.

oski003 said:

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movielover said:

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Big C said:

---

I'd be more on the side of the "anti-war" posters on this thread if it didn't seem like they're rootin' for Putin, as if he's some great guy, innocently wedged into a corner by evil Americans in the ""Democrat Party".

Condemn Putin and his ilk in Russia... and then we can talk about the nuances of this conflict... how everybody in Ukraine and in the US may not be so virtuous either.

---

What specifically am I supposed to condemn him for?

- for taking back the historically Russian Crimea, a culturally Russian area that supported rejoining the Motherland?
- for protesting CIA meddling in Ukraine towards Russia?
- for NATO welching on their commitment to not move 'one inch eastward'?
- for Western Europe pretending to support Minsk I and II?
- for waiting 30 years to confront the West?
- for the West refusing to allow the newly constructed border country of Ukraine to stay neutral?

---

Even if all the above is true, he attempted to take Kyiv, which should be denounced.

---

There is nothing above that justifies starting a war in Ukraine.

Bill Walsh used to say better to cut a player one year early than one year late.

Was Putin supposed to wait until F15s were flying over Moscow?

movielover said:

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Bill Walsh used to say better to cut a player one year early than one year late. Was Putin supposed to wait until F15s were flying over Moscow?

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There's a difference between cutting a player and sending in your army to kill a bunch of people.

sycasey said:

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movielover said:

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Bill Walsh used to say better to cut a player one year early than one year late. Was Putin supposed to wait until F15s were flying over Moscow?

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There's a difference between cutting a player and sending in your army to kill a bunch of people.

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FYI, Putin's not hard right. There are leaders in Russia willing to be more combative and assertive. FAFO.

I called this within the last 2 days. Russia isn't a bunch of goat herders.

WAR: Did Russia just destroy a $131M US Global Hawk over the Black Sea? Russia declared a no fly zone and a US drone went missing. Did the US turn off its transponder or did Russia destroy it? Fog of War. pic.twitter.com/CLcxQ8oRZG

— @amuse (@amuse) June 24, 2024

movielover said:

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sycasey said:

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movielover said:

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Bill Walsh used to say better to cut a player one year early than one year late. Was Putin supposed to wait until F15s were flying over Moscow?

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There's a difference between cutting a player and sending in your army to kill a bunch of people.

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FYI, Putin's not hard right. There are leaders in Russia willing to be more combative and assertive. FAFO.

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And they would be wrong to start a war too.

https://t.me/MFARussia/20863

Cluster munitions were prohibited by the Convention on Cluster Munitions, adopted in Dublin, Ireland, in May 2008. Are we no longer abiding by this prohibition - since we're losing our proxy war w Russia?

And are we purposefully provoking Russia into a direct confrontation?

movielover said:

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https://t.me/MFARussia/20863

Cluster munitions were prohibited by the Convention on Cluster Munitions, adopted in Dublin, Ireland, in May 2008. Are we no longer abiding by this prohibition - since we're losing our proxy war w Russia?

And are we purposefully provoking Russia into a direct confrontation?

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Are we just taking the Russian government's word on everything now?

sycasey said:

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movielover said:

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https://t.me/MFARussia/20863

Cluster munitions were prohibited by the Convention on Cluster Munitions, adopted in Dublin, Ireland, in May 2008. Are we no longer abiding by this prohibition - since we're losing our proxy war w Russia?

And are we purposefully provoking Russia into a direct confrontation?

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Are we just taking the Russian government's word on everything now?

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Both Ukraine and Russia have used cluster munitions in the conflict. The USA has supplied such to Ukraine. Are you disputing something here or just cheerleading for the USA?

Let me know when Russia is launching cluster weapons from say, Cuba, to kill civilians in the US. Then we will have some equivalence.

oski003 said:

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sycasey said:

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movielover said:

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https://t.me/MFARussia/20863

Cluster munitions were prohibited by the Convention on Cluster Munitions, adopted in Dublin, Ireland, in May 2008. Are we no longer abiding by this prohibition - since we're losing our proxy war w Russia?

And are we purposefully provoking Russia into a direct confrontation?

---

Are we just taking the Russian government's word on everything now?

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Both Ukraine and Russia have used cluster munitions in the conflict. The USA has supplied such to Ukraine. Are you disputing something here or just cheerleading for the USA?

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If both nations are using such weapons and are actively at war, then how is it a "terrorist attack," as the Russian government claims in the link above? Sounds to me like it's just war. This is why you don't start a war.

sycasey said:

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oski003 said:

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sycasey said:

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movielover said:

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https://t.me/MFARussia/20863

Cluster munitions were prohibited by the Convention on Cluster Munitions, adopted in Dublin, Ireland, in May 2008. Are we no longer abiding by this prohibition - since we're losing our proxy war w Russia?

And are we purposefully provoking Russia into a direct confrontation?

---

Are we just taking the Russian government's word on everything now?

---

Both Ukraine and Russia have used cluster munitions in the conflict. The USA has supplied such to Ukraine. Are you disputing something here or just cheerleading for the USA?

---

If both nations are using such weapons and are actively at war, then how is it a "terrorist attack," as the Russian government claims in the link above? Sounds to me like it's just war. This is why you don't start a war.

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Thanks for the clarification. We are in uncharted waters with the United States being in a proxy war with Russia. Since it is war, would Russian retaliation on American citizens be considered an escalation?

Zippergate said:

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Let me know when Russia is launching cluster weapons from say, Cuba, to kill civilians in the US. Then we will have some equivalence.

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That may happen when the US invades Cuba or Mexico, but until then…

oski003 said:

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sycasey said:

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oski003 said:

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sycasey said:

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movielover said:

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https://t.me/MFARussia/20863

Cluster munitions were prohibited by the Convention on Cluster Munitions, adopted in Dublin, Ireland, in May 2008. Are we no longer abiding by this prohibition - since we're losing our proxy war w Russia?

And are we purposefully provoking Russia into a direct confrontation?

---

Are we just taking the Russian government's word on everything now?

---

Both Ukraine and Russia have used cluster munitions in the conflict. The USA has supplied such to Ukraine. Are you disputing something here or just cheerleading for the USA?

---

If both nations are using such weapons and are actively at war, then how is it a "terrorist attack," as the Russian government claims in the link above? Sounds to me like it's just war. This is why you don't start a war.

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Thanks for the clarification. We are in uncharted waters with the United States being in a proxy war with Russia. Since it is war, would Russian retaliation on American citizens be considered an escalation?

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Yeah, probably. I don't think Ukrainian retaliation (seemingly in equal measure) on the Russians who invaded them is really an escalation. It's just war.