Ex CIA Larry Johnson claims Ukraine went in with 10,000 or so soldiers, and they're getting obliterated now. I listened to a podcast while driving.

A big takeaway is Putin allegedly will now take the gloves off, going from a careful, restrained "SMO" to full on war.

Iran has also yet to respond to Israel.

bearister said:

---

"Russia and its president, Vladimir Putin, are incredibly unpopular: 76 percent of independents think Russia is "unfriendly" or an "enemy," along with 82 percent of conservatives and 92 percent of seniors. But Trump just will not come out strong against Putin, which hamstrings his ability to hit Biden or Harris on their incompetence in Ukraine."
https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4829749-trump-failing-campaign/

---

Forever Wars are even less popular than Russia. You can't sustain them without feeding a constant hatred of the foreign target du jour - Muslims/Arabs/Iranians, Rooskies, and increasingly today, Chinese people.

The Chinese and the Russians have historically enjoyed the sport of supplying weapons in wars where we had boots on the ground and they didn't.

bearister said:

---

"Russia and its president, Vladimir Putin, are incredibly unpopular: 76 percent of independents think Russia is "unfriendly" or an "enemy," along with 82 percent of conservatives and 92 percent of seniors. But Trump just will not come out strong against Putin, which hamstrings his ability to hit Biden or Harris on their incompetence in Ukraine."
https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4829749-trump-failing-campaign/

---

Gee, it's almost as if Putin has something on Trump, to where he dares not speak out. I wonder what Putin could have? I wonder, if he has something, if it might rhyme with "shmee shmape"?

bearister said:

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The Chinese and the Russians have historically enjoyed the sport of supplying weapons in wars where we had boots on the ground and they didn't.

---

Vietnam? Was that a good war to send boots on the ground?

That description fits the situation in Ukraine to a T, with the roles reversed, as Lindsey Graham and co seem to be relishing fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian. In this case though, it's for more than the sport, as there are a lot of resources in play for those who fund Graham and co.

I didn't pass judgment on the wars, just on who supplies the weapons. If an American soldier dies or is maimed for life on foreign soil, there is a good chance he was killed with weaponry provided by Russia and/or China…..so they can cry me a f@ucking river when the script flips.

bearister said:

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I didn't pass judgment on the wars, just on who supplies the weapons. If an American soldier dies or is maimed for life on foreign soil, there is a good chance he was killed with weaponry provided by Russia and/or China…..so they can cry me a f@ucking river when the script flips.

---

It's our presumed allies, the Ukrainians, that have been doing most of the dying here, not the Russians, and therein lies the rub.

More Russians have died than we lost in Vietnam. When I started this thread two years ago I noted, from what I had read about Ukrainian mercs, that they are f@ucking crazy people that would not be easily defeated. I would loved to have seen it end with as little loss of life as possible….but when you invade another country, regardless of how pure some allege your motives are, quagmires can result. Tip: Stay home…like a lot on BI advocate for the U.S.

Same as two years ago, but more expensive.

- Ukraine neutrality
- recognize Crimea as Russian territory
- ceding a chunk of Ukraine to Russia which it now controls, previously noted as culturally Russian areas
- NATO and US out of Ukraine

sycasey said:

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movielover said:

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Same as two years ago, but more expensive.

- Ukraine neutrality
- recognize Crimea as Russian territory
- ceding a chunk of Ukraine to Russia which it now controls, previously noted as culturally Russian areas
- NATO and US out of Ukraine

---

Again, "give them everything they want" isn't really an answer.

---

It's reality, Russia is winning, and humming along w a 3% GDP growth.

The longer we wait, the more Ukrainian death, and Russia takes Odessa and a lot more.

sycasey said:

---

movielover said:

---

Same as two years ago, but more expensive.

- Ukraine neutrality
- recognize Crimea as Russian territory
- ceding a chunk of Ukraine to Russia which it now controls, previously noted as culturally Russian areas
- NATO and US out of Ukraine

---

Again, "give them everything they want" isn't really an answer.

---

The alternative at this point is more war, with hundreds of thousands more Ukrainian soldiers dying (at much higher rates than the Russians), further destruction and further territorial losses in russophone eastern and southern Ukraine, including Karkhov and Odessa.

Who really wants that?

Most of the people in the Donbas don't want to return to Kiev, and the Russians will not back down there.

Right Wingers care as sincerely about the welfare of Ukrainian soldiers as they do about Biden and Bernie being treated unfairly by the Democratic Party.

MAAA!

*Make America Altruistic Again

DiabloWags said:

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movielover said:

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It's reality, Russia is winning, and humming along w a 3% GDP growth.

The longer we wait, the more Ukrainian death, and Russia takes Odessa and a lot more.

---

Russia's GDP is $2.2 Trillion.
8th in the world.
Yawn.

CA is $4.0 Trillion.

---

Russia has just passed Germany and Japan to become the 4th largest GDP PPP in the world.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.PP.CD?most_recent_value_desc=true

Energy consumption of California 259.5 TWh, Russia 979 TW/h.

Steel production California 2 million tons per year, Russia 71,5 million tons per year.

A BART ride from Berkeley to SF is around $5, in Moscow or St Petersburg a subway ride is around 60 cents. The subway system is those cities is far better than in SF, NYC, Chicago etc.

A year of college tuition in California costs between $15K and $65k. College in Russia is free.

Los Angeles homeless population: 75,000. Homeless population in all of Russia: 11,000.

UKRAINE: Zelensky's decision to claim that he authorized the destruction of Germany's Nord Stream pipeline was a HUGE mistake and might cost him his country. pic.twitter.com/ipaH2aJqbk

— @amuse (@amuse) August 17, 2024

I don't know if it was Ukraine, the U.S., or some NATO country that blew up Nord Stream 2 but Germany plans to halve military aid for Ukraine in 2025.

Cal88 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

movielover said:

---

It's reality, Russia is winning, and humming along w a 3% GDP growth.

The longer we wait, the more Ukrainian death, and Russia takes Odessa and a lot more.

---

Russia's GDP is $2.2 Trillion.
8th in the world.
Yawn.

CA is $4.0 Trillion.

---

Russia has just passed Germany and Japan to become the 4th largest GDP PPP in the world.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.PP.CD?most_recent_value_desc=true

Energy consumption of California 259.5 TWh, Russia 979 TW/h.

Steel production California 2 million tons per year, Russia 71,5 million tons per year.

A BART ride from Berkeley to SF is around $5, in Moscow or St Petersburg a subway ride is around 60 cents. The subway system is those cities is far better than in SF, NYC, Chicago etc.

A year of college tuition in California costs between $15K and $65k. College in Russia is free.

Los Angeles homeless population: 75,000. Homeless population in all of Russia: 11,000.

---

Sounds like you should pack your bags today and go!

….plus the homeless in Russia give back to the community:

Cal88 said:

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sycasey said:

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What does it take to convince Putin that this war is not worth the effort and expense?

---

Abiding by Minsk I, Minsk II, the Istanbul peace agreement, and working towards a settlement that sees Ukraine as a neutral state?

The ultimate goal of this war, as clearly stated by leading NATO strategists like Brzezinski or the recent Rand Institute whitepaper on Russia ("Overextending and Unbalancing Russia"), or statements from leading European diplomats like Kaja Kalas and from EU/US think tanks, the ultimate goal is to break up Russia and get to its huge pools of resources, the world's largest.

NATO got its hands on that wealth in the 1990s, when in collusion with local oligarchs they've sucked off Russian resources and heavy industry and destroyed the Russian state, putting Yeltsin, a Biden-like decrepit figure at the top of the country and inflicting enormous misery on its people, levels of poverty and misery unprecedented in Russia since the pre-war Bolchevik genocidal reign of terror.

Jeffrey Sachs, who was in the center of that era in the 90s, as an advisor to Yeltsin and an economic planner documented that process of Russian economic and social collapse, engineered by NATO.

During these crisis times of the 1990s, Putin moonlighted as a cab driver in St Petersburg, as his fixed income KGB salary vaporized through hyperinflation. His entire outlook and policies today are geared towards preserving Russian sovereignty and economic welfare.

---

I was wrong.
You're not Hitler. You're a Russian propagandist.

I was in Moscow in Jan 1990. Their economy had sucked for a long time at that point. Meanwhile, you're trying to blame Russia's collapse on westerners raiding it of resources? Daaamn! Those sure are some "alternative facts" you're spewing!

The mostly benevolent Marxists at @guardian have been promoting eating of insects for almost 15 years.

Q) Is their cafeteria offering insects for breakfast, lunch, dinner, coffee breaks?

🤔 pic.twitter.com/SFpQN1ptNy

— 𝔻𝕒𝕨𝕟𝕋𝕁𝟡𝟘™ 🇵🇭💖🇨🇦 Climate of Dawn (@DawnTJ90) February 18, 2024

concordtom said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

What does it take to convince Putin that this war is not worth the effort and expense?

---

Abiding by Minsk I, Minsk II, the Istanbul peace agreement, and working towards a settlement that sees Ukraine as a neutral state?

The ultimate goal of this war, as clearly stated by leading NATO strategists like Brzezinski or the recent Rand Institute whitepaper on Russia ("Overextending and Unbalancing Russia"), or statements from leading European diplomats like Kaja Kalas and from EU/US think tanks, the ultimate goal is to break up Russia and get to its huge pools of resources, the world's largest.

NATO got its hands on that wealth in the 1990s, when in collusion with local oligarchs they've sucked off Russian resources and heavy industry and destroyed the Russian state, putting Yeltsin, a Biden-like decrepit figure at the top of the country and inflicting enormous misery on its people, levels of poverty and misery unprecedented in Russia since the pre-war Bolchevik genocidal reign of terror.

Jeffrey Sachs, who was in the center of that era in the 90s, as an advisor to Yeltsin and an economic planner documented that process of Russian economic and social collapse, engineered by NATO.

During these crisis times of the 1990s, Putin moonlighted as a cab driver in St Petersburg, as his fixed income KGB salary vaporized through hyperinflation. His entire outlook and policies today are geared towards preserving Russian sovereignty and economic welfare.

---

I was wrong.
You're not Hitler. You're a Russian propagandist.

I was in Moscow in Jan 1990. Their economy had sucked for a long time at that point. Meanwhile, you're trying to blame Russia's collapse on westerners raiding it of resources? Daaamn! Those sure are some "alternative facts" you're spewing!

---

It's hard to argue with you because deep down you mean well, but are hopelessly naive and poorly informed on matters like the evolution of the post-Soviet Russian economy.

Quote:

---

Dimitrig said:

Sounds like you should pack your bags today and go!

---

You first, as you're the one with Slavic/Orthodox roots here, based on your handle...

My point is, Russia is doing better economically today than at any point in the past 110 years. Their standard of living and purchasing power have been rising constantly, they have no debt, no unemployment and their huge social problems from the 1990s largely resolved. While this doesn't fit the neocon, jingoistic narrative of Russia as a failed state, it is the truth.

Cal88 said:

---

concordtom said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

What does it take to convince Putin that this war is not worth the effort and expense?

---

Abiding by Minsk I, Minsk II, the Istanbul peace agreement, and working towards a settlement that sees Ukraine as a neutral state?

The ultimate goal of this war, as clearly stated by leading NATO strategists like Brzezinski or the recent Rand Institute whitepaper on Russia ("Overextending and Unbalancing Russia"), or statements from leading European diplomats like Kaja Kalas and from EU/US think tanks, the ultimate goal is to break up Russia and get to its huge pools of resources, the world's largest.

NATO got its hands on that wealth in the 1990s, when in collusion with local oligarchs they've sucked off Russian resources and heavy industry and destroyed the Russian state, putting Yeltsin, a Biden-like decrepit figure at the top of the country and inflicting enormous misery on its people, levels of poverty and misery unprecedented in Russia since the pre-war Bolchevik genocidal reign of terror.

Jeffrey Sachs, who was in the center of that era in the 90s, as an advisor to Yeltsin and an economic planner documented that process of Russian economic and social collapse, engineered by NATO.

During these crisis times of the 1990s, Putin moonlighted as a cab driver in St Petersburg, as his fixed income KGB salary vaporized through hyperinflation. His entire outlook and policies today are geared towards preserving Russian sovereignty and economic welfare.

---

I was wrong.
You're not Hitler. You're a Russian propagandist.

I was in Moscow in Jan 1990. Their economy had sucked for a long time at that point. Meanwhile, you're trying to blame Russia's collapse on westerners raiding it of resources? Daaamn! Those sure are some "alternative facts" you're spewing!

---

It's hard to argue with you because deep down you mean well, but are hopelessly naive and poorly informed on matters like the evolution of the post-Soviet Russian economy.

Quote:

---

Dimitrig said:

Sounds like you should pack your bags today and go!

---

You first, as you're the one with Slavic/Orthodox roots here, based on your handle...

My point is, Russia is doing better economically today than at any point in the past 110 years. Their standard of living and purchasing power have been rising constantly, they have no debt, no unemployment and their huge social problems from the 1990s largely resolved. While this doesn't fit the neocon, jingoistic narrative of Russia as a failed state, it is the truth.

---

Correct. I'm not well informed on matters like the evolution of the post-Soviet Russian economy.

But I do know that Russia has been accused of being in a population death spiral, which portends bad things in its future.

Few kids being born.
Low life expectancy.
Death by alcoholism, or war.
High emigration by the best and brightest.
Low immigration by outsiders.



I'm not rooting for misery in Russia. But I do root for them to stop invading foreign nations, stop hijacking western citizens to serve as bargaining chips, and begin partnering with Western governments on all sorts of liberal democratic issues.

But it won't, because its wealth is controlled by a select few, managed by a deep KGB state of information propaganda and physical terror.

concordtom said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

concordtom said:

---

Cal88 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

What does it take to convince Putin that this war is not worth the effort and expense?

---

Abiding by Minsk I, Minsk II, the Istanbul peace agreement, and working towards a settlement that sees Ukraine as a neutral state?

The ultimate goal of this war, as clearly stated by leading NATO strategists like Brzezinski or the recent Rand Institute whitepaper on Russia ("Overextending and Unbalancing Russia"), or statements from leading European diplomats like Kaja Kalas and from EU/US think tanks, the ultimate goal is to break up Russia and get to its huge pools of resources, the world's largest.

NATO got its hands on that wealth in the 1990s, when in collusion with local oligarchs they've sucked off Russian resources and heavy industry and destroyed the Russian state, putting Yeltsin, a Biden-like decrepit figure at the top of the country and inflicting enormous misery on its people, levels of poverty and misery unprecedented in Russia since the pre-war Bolchevik genocidal reign of terror.

Jeffrey Sachs, who was in the center of that era in the 90s, as an advisor to Yeltsin and an economic planner documented that process of Russian economic and social collapse, engineered by NATO.

During these crisis times of the 1990s, Putin moonlighted as a cab driver in St Petersburg, as his fixed income KGB salary vaporized through hyperinflation. His entire outlook and policies today are geared towards preserving Russian sovereignty and economic welfare.

---

I was wrong.
You're not Hitler. You're a Russian propagandist.

I was in Moscow in Jan 1990. Their economy had sucked for a long time at that point. Meanwhile, you're trying to blame Russia's collapse on westerners raiding it of resources? Daaamn! Those sure are some "alternative facts" you're spewing!

---

It's hard to argue with you because deep down you mean well, but are hopelessly naive and poorly informed on matters like the evolution of the post-Soviet Russian economy.

Quote:

---

Dimitrig said:

Sounds like you should pack your bags today and go!

---

You first, as you're the one with Slavic/Orthodox roots here, based on your handle...

My point is, Russia is doing better economically today than at any point in the past 110 years. Their standard of living and purchasing power have been rising constantly, they have no debt, no unemployment and their huge social problems from the 1990s largely resolved. While this doesn't fit the neocon, jingoistic narrative of Russia as a failed state, it is the truth.

---

Correct. I'm not well informed on matters like the evolution of the post-Soviet Russian economy.

But I do know that Russia has been accused of being in a population death spiral, which portends bad things in its future.

Few kids being born.
Low life expectancy.
Death by alcoholism, or war.
High emigration by the best and brightest.
Low immigration by outsiders.

---

What you know about Russia boils down to anti-Russian propaganda, and the video above is a good sample of that.

One of the main premises of that video is that alcoholism is rampant in Russia, when in fact that problem was largely addressed. He uses stats from 2012, when it was still a huge problem, while ignoring the transformation that has occurred since, a story that is very well-documented by most western sources:

Russia's alcohol policy: a continuing success story

• The Lancet October 05, 2019

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(19)32265-2/fulltext

'We are new Russians': How a hard-drinking nation curbed its alcohol use
Russia now ranks 14th in terms of alcohol consumption globally, and is comparable to France and Germany
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russia-booze-drinking-1.4949099

Science News
In Russia, declines in alcohol consumption and mortality have gone hand in hand
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/10/191003074839.htm

Quote:

---

a new report by the World Health Organization (WHO) shows their alcohol consumption has dropped by more than 40 percent from its peak in the early 2000s. The United Nations' health agency attributed the decline (n alcohol consumption) to a series of measures brought in since sport-loving President Vladimir Putin took office in 2000, including restrictions on alcohol sales and the promotion of healthy lifestyles.

---

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/10/1/russians-drink-less-live-longer-who-report-says

>>> The fact that this very basic item is completely misreported in that video exposes its anti-Russian bias.


Russia's demography as well has been recovering, the Russian fertility rate is now the highest in Europe at 1.82, ahead of France and Ireland:
https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/RUS/russia/fertility-rate

Russian natalist policies in the last decade, which boosted child support and where they also used young female influencers and media targeted at young women, were fairly successful.

🇷🇺👶 "Partially as a result of the raft of pronatalist policies put in place in the 2000s Russian TFR rose from 1.3 in 2006 to ~1.78 by 2015. Births climbed from ~1.480M in 2006 to a post Soviet high of 1.942M in 2014.

This sets Russia apart from countries like Japan, Korea,… pic.twitter.com/gn4JNFSZGy

— SIMPLICIUS Ѱ (@simpatico771) January 26, 2024

Articles like these which covered Russia's economic and social revival in the last decade were not unusual before the war:

News
'Putin's paradise': How Russia is revamping Moscow to be one of Europe's most vibrant cities
When it comes to public spaces, the people of Moscow are experiencing a new kind of freedom
https://www.cbc.ca/news/national-moscow-urban-renewal-putin-1.4847400

>>> Moscow and St Petersburg are the safest, cleanest large metropoles in Europe today.


As to Navalny, he was a marginal astroturfed Russian political figure in the mold of a Juan Guaido, who was built up as a Walesa or Mandela-like figure by the media. In fact he was convicted as a fraudster by a French court prior to his political career, and was a political opportunist who started out as a far right candidate who compared immigrants to cockroaches and literally advocated their shooting in his political ads. Covered here.

As well he was not murdered:

Didn’t see this one coming. pic.twitter.com/QDPlnYUKKb

— David Sacks (@DavidSacks) February 26, 2024

Good news for Russia and Russians. Given the mayhem and dramatic increase in violent crimes in Western Europe, Russia, Poland and Hungary may lead the way for civility and Western / Christian values.

Given their enormous resources and now growing economy, I've wondered why they don't support increased home ownership. Maybe they are.

Home ownership rate in Russia is 92%:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1139285/russia-home-ownership-rate