The Official Russian Invasion of Ukraine Thread

1,237,220 Views | 11806 Replies | Last: 2 hrs ago by bearister
Big C
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movielover said:

You mean Russia, which:

- has superior integrated air defense
- unmatched artillery
- a now 1.3-million-man battle trained military
- unmatched military manufacturing
- newborn integrated drone systems
- North Korea as a manufacturing and manpower backup
- has defeated and depleted Ukraine, the EU, NATO, and USA
- zero debt?
- effectively defeated Ukraine, EU, and NATO
- controls 20% of Ukraine

With all the Rooskies have going for them (according to you, above), it's amazing they don't now have 100% of a depleted Ukraine. Heck, they should've had it two years and eleven months ago, right?

Heck, how did an awesome country like that ever lose the Cold War?
movielover
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DiabloWags said:

movielover said:

You mean Russia, which:

- has superior integrated air defense
- unmatched artillery
- a now 1.3-million-man battle trained military
- unmatched military manufacturing
- newborn integrated drone systems
- North Korea as a manufacturing and manpower backup
- has defeated and depleted Ukraine, the EU, NATO, and USA
- zero debt?
- effectively defeated Ukraine, EU, and NATO
- controls 20% of Ukraine

Are you from Russia?
Or are you on some really strong meds?




Simple question: two years into the war we sent Zelensky cluster bombs - banned by 112 nations - and started discussing using limited nuclear weapons. Why?
Cal88
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Big C said:

movielover said:

You mean Russia, which:

- has superior integrated air defense
- unmatched artillery
- a now 1.3-million-man battle trained military
- unmatched military manufacturing
- newborn integrated drone systems
- North Korea as a manufacturing and manpower backup
- has defeated and depleted Ukraine, the EU, NATO, and USA
- zero debt?
- effectively defeated Ukraine, EU, and NATO
- controls 20% of Ukraine

With all the Rooskies have going for them (according to you, above), it's amazing they don't now have 100% of a depleted Ukraine. Heck, they should've had it two years and eleven months ago, right?

Heck, how did an awesome country like that ever lose the Cold War?

The Rooskies' goal is to grind down the Ukrainian military while minimizing their own losses, using their huge edge in artillery and air superiority. It's a strategy that has delivered a win without negatively impacting their economy or them sustaining politically untenable losses.
movielover
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The first of many.

socaltownie
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movielover said:

Zelensky:

- didn't wear a suit, and called them "costumes"
- had his arms folded (closed body language)
- more nose snorts than normal
- apparently flipped the script and wanted a deal for US troops on the ground, not a Ukraine minerals deal
- reneged on the deal he had w SOS Rubio
- badgered the POTUS and VP in the Oval
- allegedly called the VP a "B-tch" in Ukrainian (Small Man's Complex eeking out)?
- threatened the USA

OK? And your point?

Again, what is in the US interests? I don't care whether he is in shorts or a $2000 italian cut. Kruchev banged a shoe the table. THe issue is what is in OUR best interest.
movielover
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socaltownie
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movielover said:

You mean Russia, which:

- has superior integrated air defense
- unmatched artillery
- a now 1.3-million-man battle trained military
- unmatched military manufacturing
- newborn integrated drone systems
- North Korea as a manufacturing and manpower backup
- has defeated and depleted Ukraine, the EU, NATO, and USA
- zero debt?
- effectively defeated Ukraine, EU, and NATO
- controls 20% of Ukraine
Honestly are you a Russian Troll? Working in Moscow?

https://carnegieendowment.org/russia-eurasia/politika/2024/12/russia-economy-difficulties?lang=en

Dealing with 9% inflation

An oil market that has declined well off 2022 peaks and has seen spot prices stuck in a range that isn't enough to support the Russian state functions.





socaltownie
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Cal88 said:

DiabloWags said:

Return of the King said:

sycasey said:

So it turns out that the US government actually can't make other countries do what it wants just because.
I look forward to Ukraine trying to defend itself without American weapons.


And what happens when Putin invades a NATO country in Europe?
What will President Bone Spurs do then?
Cut and run again???

So nice to see all of the Russian "apologists" come out of the closet again here at Bearinsider.


Obama had the good sense of not intervening when Russia annexed Crimea, knowing that it was a vital interest to Russia and that they would therefore have escalatory dominance on an eventual conflict there.

Somewhere along the line, the neocons took over and half-baked ideology replaced common sense, and that resulted in 800,000 Ukrainian soldiers dead, over 100,000 maimed and well over a million men wounded. Exactly as Mearsheimer called it 10 years ago, this is the seminal thesis for this thread:





One can agree with John M. but not sure that it matters going forward.
Big C
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movielover said:

Zelensky:

- didn't wear a suit, and called them "costumes"

- had his arms folded (closed body language)
- more nose snorts than normal
- apparently flipped the script and wanted a deal for US troops on the ground, not a Ukraine minerals deal
- reneged on the deal he had w SOS Rubio
- badgered the POTUS and VP in the Oval
- allegedly called the VP a "B-tch" in Ukrainian (Small Man's Complex eeking out)?
- threatened the USA


Zelenskyy possesses limited English proficiency. The French word for suit is "costume".
socaltownie
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Return of the King said:

socaltownie said:

Return of the King said:

sycasey said:

So it turns out that the US government actually can't make other countries do what it wants just because.
I look forward to Ukraine trying to defend itself without American weapons





Again - what advances America's interests. The status quo? Russian tanks by summer in Keiv? This isn't about trolling Zelensky. This SHOULD be about what end point is better or worse for us.
The only interests this war has ever advanced for us is making defense contractors money.

Is Ukraine as a country in a better position now or in the beginning of February 2022? The answer is obvious. Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have died for nothing. The endpoint that is best for not only us, but the world, is that this war ends without further bloodshed.

The idea that Russia is going to take advantage of the outcome of this war and invade a NATO country and try to take over Europe is laughably stupid and shows how little understanding of the world liberals have.

When even war apologist Fake Tapper is telling you that Ukraine is losing this war, it's the end of the propaganda portion of the war.






Putin has flat out SAID that he doesn't think independent Baltic states are legimate. They are NATO members.

Cal88
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socaltownie said:


Putin has flat out SAID that he doesn't think independent Baltic states are legimate. They are NATO members.


The only scenario where this could happen is if Lithuania blocked the corridor to Kaliningrad, or Estonia actively disrupted Russian access to the Baltic sea from St Petersburg, or any of the three Baltic states oppressed their large Russian minorities.

Responsible US and NATO policy should be to dissuade them from crossing those red lines.
bear2034
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DiabloWags said:


Are you from Russia?
Or are you on some really strong meds?
BearNIt
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Cal88 said:

One of the main drives behind settling the Ukraine war is to focus on China, and to try to peel off Russia from China, taking a page from the Kissinger/Bush Sr. playbook.

Realpolitik aside, you also have to credit Trump and Vance for telling the truth about the real extent of Ukrainian military losses (800,000+ killed), which the previous administration, the MSM and nearly all NATO governments have lied about.

The point is, if you care about Ukrainians, you will take strong measures to end this war.
Yes the war should end but you don't throw an ally under the bus and then attempt to humiliate him all while stating that the country that invaded him didn't. Ukraine didn't receive $350 billion dollars.The EU has provided more aid than the US. It could have been handled so much better if planning and professionalism were used. It instead looked like a **** show and the US las well as you know who, looked crazy siding with Putin.

You want minerals, then provide some security guarantees and get your money back. Why would Ukraine agree to less?
bear2034
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Check out Zelensky's twitter feed and see world leaders showing him support. It's almost like a mass happy birthday text where you feel forced to respond. if you don't tweet a response, does that mean you don't support Zelensky?
bear2034
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Big C said:




Zelenskyy possesses limited English proficiency. The French word for suit is "costume".
On his way out of the White House, Zelensky was overheard telling reporters, "next time I come back to see these biotches, I bring costume."
socaltownie
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Cal88 said:

socaltownie said:


Putin has flat out SAID that he doesn't think independent Baltic states are legimate. They are NATO members.


The only scenario where this could happen is if Lithuania blocked the corridor to Kaliningrad, or Estonia actively disrupted Russian access to the Baltic sea from St Petersburg, or any of the three Baltic states oppressed their large Russian minorities.

Responsible US and NATO policy should be to dissuade them from crossing those red lines.
Maybe repsonsible policy should be......

RUSSIA DON"T INVADE OTHER COUNTRIES

Sorta hard stop

Seriously.....some self reflection.

"or any of the three Baltic states oppressed their large Russian minorities.... dissuade them from crossing those red lines."

You do realize how close this sounds to what was said about German speaking ethnic populations in the Sudetenland? I mean I hope so.
bearister
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bearister said:

My theory is that Musk and Vance are setting Trump up to reveal how unhinged and detached from reality he is so that a 25th Amendment removal will be a no brainer cake walk…..


Well, Vance played his role in the performance art today by pushing Trump off the cliff and putting all the goods and wares of Trump's paranoid delusional condition on display when he went into his Hunter Biden/Russia, Russia, Russia rant.




If Musk/Vance can set up a couple more of these situations, they can get rid of the old guy.



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socaltownie
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Return of the King said:

socaltownie said:

Cal88 said:

socaltownie said:


Putin has flat out SAID that he doesn't think independent Baltic states are legimate. They are NATO members.

The only scenario where this could happen is if Lithuania blocked the corridor to Kaliningrad, or Estonia actively disrupted Russian access to the Baltic sea from St Petersburg, or any of the three Baltic states oppressed their large Russian minorities.

Responsible US and NATO policy should be to dissuade them from crossing those red lines.
Maybe responsible policy should be......

RUSSIA DON"T INVADE OTHER COUNTRIES

Sorta hard stop

Seriously.....some self reflection.

"or any of the three Baltic states oppressed their large Russian minorities.... dissuade them from crossing those red lines."

You do realize how close this sounds to what was said about German speaking ethnic populations in the Sudetenland? I mean I hope so.
If Europe wants to send troops and arms to defend other countries' sovereignty, they are more than welcome to step up and show how much it means to them. It's long past time for them to put more of their own skin in the game. And I encourage the US Congressmen and Senators who have shoveled arms and money to Ukraine to show how much it means to them by encouraging their young children to pick up a rifle and show how much Ukrainian sovereignty means to them.

But as for money and arms from the U.S.? Go beg the EU. Solve your own problems. We have our own problems to solve.

I'll let these guys explain it to you.


I think isolationism is an intellectually justifiable position. With it comes understanding that the world is likely to be significantly more dangerous with up to a dozen newly nuclear armed states and especially problematic during the period in which they are acquiring a deterrent capable of second strike survivability. For some countries (poland, Germany, possibly South Korean) this is problematic as it will require their construction of SLBM because ground or airbased only strategic deterrents in those countries are unlikely to survive a first strike.

tequila4kapp
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BearNIt said:

Cal88 said:

One of the main drives behind settling the Ukraine war is to focus on China, and to try to peel off Russia from China, taking a page from the Kissinger/Bush Sr. playbook.

Realpolitik aside, you also have to credit Trump and Vance for telling the truth about the real extent of Ukrainian military losses (800,000+ killed), which the previous administration, the MSM and nearly all NATO governments have lied about.

The point is, if you care about Ukrainians, you will take strong measures to end this war.
Yes the war should end but you don't throw an ally under the bus and then attempt to humiliate him all while stating that the country that invaded him didn't. Ukraine didn't receive $350 billion dollars.The EU has provided more aid than the US. It could have been handled so much better if planning and professionalism were used. It instead looked like a **** show and the US las well as you know who, looked crazy siding with Putin.

You want minerals, then provide some security guarantees and get your money back. Why would Ukraine agree to less?
Not according to Statasitica. The US has provided more than double EU

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303432/total-bilateral-aid-to-ukraine/
tequila4kapp
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socaltownie said:



I think isolationism is an intellectually justifiable position. With it comes understanding that the world is likely to be significantly more dangerous with up to a dozen newly nuclear armed states and especially problematic during the period in which they are acquiring a deterrent capable of second strike survivability. For some countries (poland, Germany, possibly South Korean) this is problematic as it will require their construction of SLBM because ground or airbased only strategic deterrents in those countries are unlikely to survive a first strike.
I don't. But I think it is intellectually honest to say a continuation of the existing path leads to Ukrainian annihilation. Unless we are willing to put boots on the ground this war is over. I cannot state how strongly I am against that. Not an ounce of American blood should be spilled for Ukraine. So that leaves us with making a peace deal, either now or later. And if later, the West's bargaining position will only be worse.
socaltownie
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Because it seems they separate aid from the eu and aid from eu members. Not sure why
movielover
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socaltownie said:

movielover said:

You mean Russia, which:

Honestly are you a Russian Troll? Working in Moscow?

https://carnegieendowment.org/russia-eurasia/politika/2024/12/russia-economy-difficulties?lang=en

Dealing with 9% inflation

An oil market that has declined well off 2022 peaks and has seen spot prices stuck in a range that isn't enough to support the Russian state functions.




Honestly? I'm sitting in Klitschko's 'gentleman's club' in Kiev smoking a fatty.
Anarchistbear
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This is a historic moment in US foreign policy. The interesting thing is that it has nothing to do with Republicans and Democrats who are stuck in the bipartisan Cold War mentality
movielover
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Maybe...

- don't put 12 C-A bases in Ukraine
- don't fund a color revolution
- don't threaten Russia w putting NATO on its border
- don't openly plot for over a decade to "weaken" Russia
socaltownie
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Ehhhh. I think thay vastly overestimates putins cureent strength. We know inflation is at least 9% (state sources) and manpower problems have lead to the deals with Vietnam and Korea. Feels like we are about 1917.

And it isn't clear to me what putin gives up to make this a good deal rather than a pause that get us to the same point (collapse) in a couple of years.
movielover
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bear2034 said:

Big C said:




Zelenskyy possesses limited English proficiency. The French word for suit is "costume".
On his way out of the White House, Zelensky was overheard telling reporters, "next time I come back to see these biotches, I bring costume."


The second time he uses a vulgar insult?

Should every peace negotiator be given a drug test?

socaltownie: Russia's economy grew at 4.1% last year.

BearNit: WHY did CONgress and Biden (Blinken / Sullivan) not demand an Inspector General for the Ukraine War? POTUS Trump is cleaning up their historic blunder.
Zippergate
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One can agree with John M. but not sure that it matters going forward.

I think it does matter. Perhaps we should start listening to people who got it right from the beginning. What do they have to say about what Russia's intentions are and how to achieve peace.

Like this guy, for example...
socaltownie
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movielover said:

bear2034 said:

Big C said:




Zelenskyy possesses limited English proficiency. The French word for suit is "costume".
On his way out of the White House, Zelensky was overheard telling reporters, "next time I come back to see these biotches, I bring costume."


The second time he uses a vulgar insult?

Should every peace negotiator be given a drug test?

socaltownie: Russia's economy grew at 4.1% last year.

BearNit: WHY did CONgress and Biden (Blinken / Sullivan) not demand an Inspector General for the Ukraine War? POTUS Trump is cleaning up their historic blunder.
LOL. Interest rates are currently at 21% and they are facing a significant demand crunch. Where the **** sare you getting that GDP number
DiabloWags
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This is a good read by Jonah Goldberg.
He points a finger or two at Vance.


This is where things went off the rails. I think it's plausible, probably likely, that Trump did not want this to blow up. I think it's possible that Vance didn't intend to monkey wrench it. I also think it's likely that Zelensky didn't either. I've also heard lots of folks suggest otherwise. It certainly feels like Vance is trying to bait Zelensky and goad Trump. After all, Trump actually seems to want a deal, but I don't think Vance does.
Lowry, Thiessen, and others are almost certainly right that Zelensky shouldn't have taken the bait. But Vance, the champion of diplomacy, shouldn't have baited a war-weary man fighting for the survival of his country in the first place. If he wanted a deal, his job should have been to prevent Trump from being goaded, not to goad Trump. He should have been the one to nudge Trump to call an end to the presser. That's what Mike Pence would have done. But Vance has his own agenda, and he poorly served his president in service to it. What is his agenda? To be America's foremost troll.

So even if you think Zelensky made a fatal error by actually telling the truth about the predicament his nation finds itself in, even if you think the mineral dealwith no security guaranteesis brilliant, the fact remains that the administration mishandled the situation. Remember, Zelinsky is a politician too. And for the better part of an hour he was asked to sit there as Trump painted a false moral equivalence between Russia and Ukraine and was dismissive of Ukraine's plight and the history that led to this. If you actually want a deal, maybe don't do that in public? I mean, the Ukrainians are watching too.


In response to Zelensky's bait-taking, Lowry says that Zelensky "made an excellent point, but he wasn't there to be right or to win an argument." Fair enough. But this is yet another situation where others are to blame for not fully adjusting to the fact that Trump is a thin-skinned, malicious toddler with poor impulse control. It's always someone else's fault for not enabling or humoring him sufficiently.
You know who knows Trump is easily baited into childish outbursts? J.D. Vance. And either out of cynicism or petulant incompetence, he acted on that.

So that's how I see this event in isolation.



Dishonor and Incompetence in the Oval Office
movielover
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Google is your friend.

Meanwhile, Biden / Blinken / Sullivan destroy NS2 pipelines, an act of war, and now Germany is in their 3rd year of recession. All of Europe is struggling with Socialist Utopian dreams, 'Green' energy, and reckless immigration. Western Europe is in a slow death spiral.
movielover
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bearister
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What your face looks like when you come to the realization that you have sold out and gone against all of your core beliefs and violated your moral and ethical code, in exchange for power:



……and you could really use a drink of water to wash down the shame:
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DiabloWags
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Ronald Reagan is rolling over in his grave today.
DiabloWags
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Return of tge King said:

The only interests this war has ever advanced for us is making defense contractors money.


This is a terribly IGNORANT comment.

All the "experts" told us that this war would be over in 3 days due to Russia's vastly superior military power. And yet, here we are 3 YEARS later.

Ukraine EXPOSED Russia for how militarily weak they are.

Its shocking that you cant figure this out.
Maybe because you're drinking too much Orange-Aid?

Zippergate
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And your "experts" told us that Ukraine would repel Russia and liberate the entire country. Funny, last I checked, the Russians still occupy the eastern oblasts despite all the aid and Ukraine's willingness to sacrifice and entire generation. How much territory has Ukraine liberated?
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