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The Official Russian Invasion of Ukraine Thread

2,414,266 Views | 14313 Replies | Last: 1 day ago by sycasey
dajo9
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Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

The aversion to Russia could just be that they have no history of freedom or democracy. Have historically invaded and conquered their neighbors and, in fact, have occupied half of Europe in our parents lifetimes and imposed deadly authoritarianism and economic backwardness on them.


Russia has no colonies, unlike every other major European country or the US for that matter. Their people have enjoyed economic prosperity and social harmony that is unprecedented in their entire history, that is why Putin has had favorability ratings in the 60%-80% range while his counterparts from presumably democratic western countries like France, the UK or Germany have ratings in the 10%-20% and are hated by the majority of their population.

The Russians treat their minorities well, for instance you don't find the same type of unrest with their very large muslim population (14% of their total population) that you have in western Europe, or the same level of criminality, lack of security in Moscow or St Petersburg that you have today in Paris, London, Berlin or LA and Chicago for that matter.

Also, you're conflating the USSR and the Soviets (who have killed tens of millions of Russians in the 20th century) with the Russians, a common error that is based on a Cold War mindset and a lack of understanding of Russian history. No one in Russia today wants to colonize Hungary or Czechia.

Furthermore, Russia has a very rich history of cultural contributions to western and world civilization, from the arts, literature, music to the sciences, they are not the backwards culture that you believe they are, and those types of beliefs go a long way in explaining the kind of hostility you have towards that country.


Russia isn't the Soviets or the the USSR. Germany wasn't the NAZI's. Southerners weren't the Confederates. What a fun game you play.
sycasey
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Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Even if Brits are super racist about Russians (or were in 1904) that doesn't mean Russia just gets to invade Ukraine. All this stuff is irrelevant.

Your interpretation of the events is at the very least based on cultural stereotypes of Russians, that they are bloodthirsty types who want to invade Europe, as if this was part of their DNA. The whole "if we don't stop them in Ukraine, they will roll into Berlin and Paris" narrative.

I don't think you realize that because that cultural mindset has been ingrained through decades of Cold War propaganda, were raised on Saturday morning Boris and Natasha cartoons and stereotypical Hollywood characters like Ivan Drago.

That's why when you are presented with facts like Burns' statements about Russia being pushed into this war, you will dismiss them out of hand and revert back to the simplistic "Putin Bad Hombre" narrative. The technical term for this is called cognitive dissonance.

I don't know why you keep accusing me of being culturally against Russians. I've never said anything about Russian culture here. All of my commentary is about what the Russian government has done and the things Putin says. That's where my interpretation comes from. You're the one who wants to keep bringing this culture-war stuff into it, probably because you don't actually want to talk about that other stuff.
sycasey
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movielover said:

sycasey said:

movielover said:

So you're OK with Mexico putting large military bases in Ensenada, Nogales and Jurez?

Even the Talmud says if your enemy is coming to strike your home, you are allowed, even commanded, to protect yourself.

I would not be in favor of invading Mexico because they built military bases on their own territory, no. If they actually attacked us would be another story.


The UK didn't plan to put fish and chips shops on the Ukrainian border. FTR.

I'll take this non-answer as evidence that I'm right.
sycasey
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One potentially interested party seems curiously left out of this proposal.

Cal88
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sycasey said:

One potentially interested party seems curiously left out of this proposal.



In case you haven't noticed, Ukraine is a proxy war. Without the hundreds of billions in military and economic aid, Ukraine would have accepted Minsk/Istanbul agreements years ago and over a million Ukrainian lives would have been saved, and Ukraine would still be the largest country in Europe today.

smh
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good to know you're still loyally carrying water for the Kremlin
# mumble grumble
Cal88
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smh said:

good to know you're still loyally carrying water for the Kremlin
# mumble grumble


That is exactly the same attitude as the "you're either with us or against us" that Dubya and his followers had towards anyone with strong reservations about the Iraq war two decades ago - you're either for the Ukraine war or you are a Putin toadie.

smh
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Cal88 said:

smh said:

good to know you're still loyally carrying water for the Kremlin
# mumble grumble


That is exactly the same attitude as the "you're either with us or against us" that Dubya and his followers had towards anyone with strong reservations about the Iraq war two decades ago - you're either for the Ukraine war or you are a Putin toadie.

no denial, cool, and thanks for all the fish.
sycasey
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Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

One potentially interested party seems curiously left out of this proposal.



In case you haven't noticed, Ukraine is a proxy war. Without the hundreds of billions in military and economic aid, Ukraine would have accepted Minsk/Istanbul agreements years ago and over a million Ukrainian lives would have been saved, and Ukraine would still be the largest country in Europe today.

So Ukraine's leaders should have no say in the negotiations? Last I checked it was their land that was being attacked.
Cal88
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smh said:

Cal88 said:

smh said:

good to know you're still loyally carrying water for the Kremlin
# mumble grumble


That is exactly the same attitude as the "you're either with us or against us" that Dubya and his followers had towards anyone with strong reservations about the Iraq war two decades ago - you're either for the Ukraine war or you are a Putin toadie.

no denial, cool, and thanks for all the fish.

Fish is good for you.
sycasey
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Cal88 said:

smh said:

good to know you're still loyally carrying water for the Kremlin
# mumble grumble


That is exactly the same attitude as the "you're either with us or against us" that Dubya and his followers had towards anyone with strong reservations about the Iraq war two decades ago - you're either for the Ukraine war or you are a Putin toadie.

If you're not a Putin toadie, then give us some examples of things he's done that you would condemn. Like three things.

I have no trouble condemning US policy when I don't like it.
smh
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Cal88 said:

Fish is good for you.

good advice, thanks old-timer # mama said there'd be days like this.. ..

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Cal88
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sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

One potentially interested party seems curiously left out of this proposal.



In case you haven't noticed, Ukraine is a proxy war. Without the hundreds of billions in military and economic aid, Ukraine would have accepted Minsk/Istanbul agreements years ago and over a million Ukrainian lives would have been saved, and Ukraine would still be the largest country in Europe today.

So Ukraine's leaders should have no say in the negotiations? Last I checked it was their land that was being attacked.

Zelensky doesn't give a crap about his people, he was elected on a peace platform with Russia running as a Russian speaker, then did a 180. His backers are a mix of oligarchs, war profiteers and banderist neonazis. His personal protection is assured by British SAS. He has every personal interest in keeping the war billions flowing and zero concern for his people. He has sent hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian soldiers to their death on pointless, doomed military expeditions like the '23 Summer offensive or the Kursk incursion that were meant to boost his PR and keep the arms flow going.

Not only do the current leaders of Ukraine not represent the majority of Ukrainians, who want a negotiated settlement with Russia, but they actually repress dissent.

Further important point about dajo and your position on Russia: before the war started, Ukraine was an economic basketcase where GDP per capita was less than half Russia's, despite the fact that Ukraine started out as the richest, most industrialized state in the USSR. Ukraine has been the European hub for all sorts of morbid traffics before the war - child traffic, organ traffic, arms traffic, women traffic with leaders like Klitschko being kingpins.
Cal88
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sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

smh said:

good to know you're still loyally carrying water for the Kremlin
# mumble grumble


That is exactly the same attitude as the "you're either with us or against us" that Dubya and his followers had towards anyone with strong reservations about the Iraq war two decades ago - you're either for the Ukraine war or you are a Putin toadie.

If you're not a Putin toadie, then give us some examples of things he's done that you would condemn. Like three things.

I have no trouble condemning US policy when I don't like it.


From what I recall Putin probably covered up for the apartment bombings of 1999, which likely were false flag operations meant to build consent for the Chechen wars (though Chechen terrorism was a real thing).

He cracked down on oligarchs in the 00s but has been soft on those that have emerged since, who have been part of the current power structure in Russia today and part of his personal circle, though not to the same extent as in the 90s.

He's been in power for over a quarter century, a bit out of touch with his people in his 70s at this point, and has run bad economic policies notably super high interest rates.

Dual policies towards Israel, tacit complicity with the Gaza genocide as Russia still maintains close relations with Israel, Putin also is, like Trump, a buddy of Bibi.
Anarchistbear
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Europe is dying, the unrest in France and other places underscores this. Rise of nativism, anti- immigration, more money into arms, less into reviving moribund economies. The future is bleak. This stupid war needs to stop. Deal with Putin- end sanctions, buy his gas at a reasonable price. Negotiate.
sycasey
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Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

smh said:

good to know you're still loyally carrying water for the Kremlin
# mumble grumble


That is exactly the same attitude as the "you're either with us or against us" that Dubya and his followers had towards anyone with strong reservations about the Iraq war two decades ago - you're either for the Ukraine war or you are a Putin toadie.

If you're not a Putin toadie, then give us some examples of things he's done that you would condemn. Like three things.

I have no trouble condemning US policy when I don't like it.


From what I recall Putin probably covered up for the apartment bombings of 1999, which likely were false flag operations meant to build consent for the Chechen wars (though Chechen terrorism was a real thing).

He cracked down on oligarchs in the 00s but has been soft on those that have emerged since, who have been part of the current power structure in Russia today and part of his personal circle, though not to the same extent as in the 90s.

He's been in power for over a quarter century, a bit out of touch with his people in his 70s at this point, and has run bad economic policies notably super high interest rates.

Dual policies towards Israel, tacit complicity with the Gaza genocide as Russia still maintains close relations with Israel, Putin also is, like Trump, a buddy of Bibi.

There we go! Do you think he is at fault in any way for the war in Ukraine?
movielover
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Author, former barrister, and YouTuber Alexander Mercouris recently went to Moscow. He said he spoke with cab drivers, locals, factory workers, etc. He said Russians have never done so well economically.

FTR, I looked up his wife, a gorgeous academic, and she speaks Russian, so they could chat with any and all Russians. He also claimed the financial sanctions on Russia backfired - the monies previously invested in London and elsewhere stayed home with sanctions. (He was disbarred as a barrister.) I believe he's Greek, and his wife is half German FWIW.
movielover
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Zelenskyy's goon squads kidnap two orthodox priests from church, to be sent to the front line!

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DcGvWGZzBwG/?dlrf=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
dajo9
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Cal88 said:

smh said:

good to know you're still loyally carrying water for the Kremlin
# mumble grumble


That is exactly the same attitude as the "you're either with us or against us" that Dubya and his followers had towards anyone with strong reservations about the Iraq war two decades ago - you're either for the Ukraine war or you are a Putin toadie.



You are definitely against us
dajo9
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sycasey said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

One potentially interested party seems curiously left out of this proposal.



In case you haven't noticed, Ukraine is a proxy war. Without the hundreds of billions in military and economic aid, Ukraine would have accepted Minsk/Istanbul agreements years ago and over a million Ukrainian lives would have been saved, and Ukraine would still be the largest country in Europe today.

So Ukraine's leaders should have no say in the negotiations? Last I checked it was their land that was being attacked.

Trump lining up his Neville Chamberlain moment
Cal88
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dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

smh said:

good to know you're still loyally carrying water for the Kremlin
# mumble grumble


That is exactly the same attitude as the "you're either with us or against us" that Dubya and his followers had towards anyone with strong reservations about the Iraq war two decades ago - you're either for the Ukraine war or you are a Putin toadie.



You are definitely against us

Thanks for the feedback, Dubya.
dajo9
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Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

smh said:

good to know you're still loyally carrying water for the Kremlin
# mumble grumble


That is exactly the same attitude as the "you're either with us or against us" that Dubya and his followers had towards anyone with strong reservations about the Iraq war two decades ago - you're either for the Ukraine war or you are a Putin toadie.



You are definitely against us

Thanks for the feedback, Dubya.

Wow. What clever rhetoric. Because, of course, everybody knows America never had enemies until Dubya made some kind of announcement.
Cal88
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dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

smh said:

good to know you're still loyally carrying water for the Kremlin
# mumble grumble


That is exactly the same attitude as the "you're either with us or against us" that Dubya and his followers had towards anyone with strong reservations about the Iraq war two decades ago - you're either for the Ukraine war or you are a Putin toadie.



You are definitely against us

Thanks for the feedback, Dubya.

Wow. What clever rhetoric. Because, of course, everybody knows America never had enemies until Dubya made some kind of announcement.

Would you prefer I call you Joe McCarthy then, tracking America's ennemies since the 1950s. Seems more appropriate with the Cold War angle there.
dajo9
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Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

dajo9 said:

Cal88 said:

smh said:

good to know you're still loyally carrying water for the Kremlin
# mumble grumble


That is exactly the same attitude as the "you're either with us or against us" that Dubya and his followers had towards anyone with strong reservations about the Iraq war two decades ago - you're either for the Ukraine war or you are a Putin toadie.



You are definitely against us

Thanks for the feedback, Dubya.

Wow. What clever rhetoric. Because, of course, everybody knows America never had enemies until Dubya made some kind of announcement.

Would you prefer I call you Joe McCarthy then, tracking America's ennemies since the 1950s. Seems more appropriate with the Cold War angle there.


I wear insults from you as a badge of honor so call me whatever you want.
bearister
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Putin is a good guy who, like Trump, is just a victim of bad press.



“Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside”
—Jim Morrison

“I love Cal deeply, by the way, what are the directions to The Portal from Sproul Plaza?”
movielover
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Just learned via Jeffrey Sachs that before the Crimea governing switch, Russia was negotiating a 25-year lease for warm-water Sevastopol.
Cal88
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Before the war ratcheted up in 2022, it was OK to admit that the Kyiv government was stacked with neonazis.

movielover
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Ukraine reportedly the third top destination for brand new Bentley's (intro car $400,000). Though it appears local Kiev mechanics also work on Range Rovers and BMWs.

https://bentley-kyiv.com/

Maybe Putin should target Bentley dealers for a PR stunt?

Cal88
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movielover said:

Ukraine reportedly the third top destination for brand new Bentley's (intro car $400,000). Though it appears local Kiev mechanics also work on Range Rovers and BMWs.

https://bentley-kyiv.com/

Maybe Putin should target Bentley dealers for a PR stunt?


A lot of these people will escape to London and the French Riviera with their US/Euro taxpayer loot and fancy cars when their time is up.
movielover
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Can't Putins people find the addresses of Bentleys and pay them a special visit? Better that than innocent civilians.
sycasey
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Anarchistbear said:

Europe is dying, the unrest in France and other places underscores this. Rise of nativism, anti- immigration, more money into arms, less into reviving moribund economies. The future is bleak. This stupid war needs to stop. Deal with Putin- end sanctions, buy his gas at a reasonable price. Negotiate.

The war does need to end, but IMO you don't do this by essentially giving away the store to Putin right from the start. He has no reason to make any concessions at that point.

Any negotiations without the Ukrainians at the table are also a non-starter, IMO. That negotiation will not be seen as legitimate, not by Ukraine, not by Europe, not even by the American people. Anything you try to impose on Ukraine will just be viewed with resentment by the populace and leave simmering local tension. Some people in the West see this as a proxy war. They don't.
movielover
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Actually, Ukrainians voted for peace years ago; they want peace today; and Zelenskyy is now an unelected leader. The West wants to break up Russia. Isn't this the Wolfowitz hegemony doctrine?
sycasey
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movielover said:

Actually, Ukrainians voted for peace years ago; they want peace today; and Zelenskyy is now an unelected leader. The West wants to break up Russia. Isn't this the Wolfowitz hegemony doctrine?

Ukrainians want an end to the war but they don't want to be a sitting duck for another invasion or to merely become a Russian vassal state. Any agreement that doesn't ensure their sovereignty (with security guarantees) ain't going to fly.

At this point the US probably can't even act as a security guarantor, because with Trump in charge and even after him we won't be seen as trustworthy anymore.
movielover
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And while folks like you dither, another 25,000 Ukrainian men die every month, and Russia takes more land.
sycasey
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movielover said:

And while folks like you dither

I didn't realize I was in charge of the negotiations.

Again, no issue with negotiations to end the war, but if Trump or anyone else thinks a negotiation that only involves the US, Russia, and China is going to result in actual peace in Ukraine then they're fooling themselves.
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