So let's get past this dumb conversation of whether or not Democrats support "open borders." They don't, and a true "open borders" policy is not on the table in any realistic way. I will concede that Democrats are much more likely to support increased immigration than Republicans and that their policies reflect that. Okay?

My question to conservatives is: Why is this bad? Why is it bad to support more immigration?

You would claim that Democrats only support this because they think it will help them electorally (the way Hispanic and Asian-American voting has fluctuated up and down over the decades suggests that this is not guaranteed to be true, by the way). By the same token, wouldn't Republicans only OPPOSE immigration because they think it will HURT them electorally? So what? Politicians are self-serving, what a news flash.

There are other reasons to support it, though. I support more immigration because:

1. On general principle, I think people should have personal freedom to move where they choose. Yes, I recognize that there are practical reasons why we can't just do this immediately (can't just let in criminals/terrorists/etc.). But fundamentally, we should strive to give people the opportunities to live where they want.

2. As far as I can tell, the bulk of the studies show that immigration is generally a net benefit to the country that allows it, economically and culturally. They also don't reduce wages for existing American workers, except maybe in small, specific sectors of the population. So why wouldn't we want to do that?

Given all of that, why would anyone bother entertaining such a thing as "replacement theory," even the watered-down version that Tucker Carlson offers? What policy-based reason is there for opposing a more open immigration policy?

Maybe at some point Republicans will connect the dots to understand how immigration impacts the labor markets.

My Republican in-laws are always complaining about how hard it is to hire unskilled labor for their small business in Southern California but remain staunchly anti-immigration. They aren't willing to increase the amount they pay people (minimum wage) and don't understand why they are having trouble hiring and lose their most productive workers to other opportunities. I tried to explain to them how supply and demand work but they weren't hearing it. I mentioned how the pandemic reduced the number of foreign-born workers in the labor pool and that this is holding the economy back but they throw up their hands.

They find it easier to blame Joe Biden.


(source)

We can also talk about how birthrates have been falling in first world nations. That's not because of any conspiracy by the Democrats, that's just people freely choosing not to have kids. Immigration has always been America's handy antidote to that problem; we remain relevant and powerful because of our immigrants. Again, trying to close up all the borders is just dumb.

Hmm I guess. All depends on who you are imo

sycasey said:

---

We can also talk about how birthrates have been falling in first world nations. That's not because of any conspiracy by the Democrats, that's just people freely choosing not to have kids. Immigration has always been America's handy antidote to that problem; we remain relevant and powerful because of our immigrants. Again, trying to close up all the borders is just dumb.

---

Funny how you dwell on the importance of immigration and seem to be taking some sort of high road. How about those who disagree with you on so much also agree that immigration is an absolute necessity, but needs to be done through an entry door legally, not across a river or through a fence illegally. Immigrants of all stripes, nationalities, and races make America better as they always have. And another possible surprise is that all DACAs should be made citizens. For goodness sake they have been here their whole lives (most). But then such sweet vibes are not attributed to those with whom you disagree.

Continue fighting MAGA boogeymen and Elon though. Meantime some super big problems in this country as perceived by most Americans, and deserved or not, they fall at those in the current administration.

OdontoBear66 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

We can also talk about how birthrates have been falling in first world nations. That's not because of any conspiracy by the Democrats, that's just people freely choosing not to have kids. Immigration has always been America's handy antidote to that problem; we remain relevant and powerful because of our immigrants. Again, trying to close up all the borders is just dumb.

---

Funny how you dwell on the importance of immigration and seem to be taking some sort of high road. How about those who disagree with you on so much also agree that immigration is an absolute necessity, but needs to be done through an entry door legally, not across a river or through a fence illegally. Immigrants of all stripes, nationalities, and races make America better as they always have. And another possible surprise is that all DACAs should be made citizens. For goodness sake they have been here their whole lives (most). But then such sweet vibes are not attributed to those with whom you disagree.

Continue fighting MAGA boogeymen and Elon though. Meantime some super big problems in this country as perceived by most Americans, and deserved or not, they fall at those in the current administration.

---

If you think DACAs should be made citizens then the people you disagree with are Republicans, not Democrats.

OdontoBear66 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

We can also talk about how birthrates have been falling in first world nations. That's not because of any conspiracy by the Democrats, that's just people freely choosing not to have kids. Immigration has always been America's handy antidote to that problem; we remain relevant and powerful because of our immigrants. Again, trying to close up all the borders is just dumb.

---

Funny how you dwell on the importance of immigration and seem to be taking some sort of high road. How about those who disagree with you on so much also agree that immigration is an absolute necessity, but needs to be done through an entry door legally, not across a river or through a fence illegally. Immigrants of all stripes, nationalities, and races make America better as they always have. And another possible surprise is that all DACAs should be made citizens. For goodness sake they have been here their whole lives (most). But then such sweet vibes are not attributed to those with whom you disagree.

Continue fighting MAGA boogeymen and Elon though. Meantime some super big problems in this country as perceived by most Americans, and deserved or not, they fall at those in the current administration.

---

Sounds like you disagree with the Republican party on this as well. Republicans are opposed to increasing the availability of H1-Bs, which are just temporary work visas. It's another example of a Motte and Bailey. We all agree that illegal immigration is problematic but Republicans are a complete blocker on any legal immigration reform. That's why DACA happened instead of a duly enacted law. That's why we don't have a guest worker program and haven't made it easier for people to come here to work. We don't even have to make everyone citizens - we just need to increase our labor pool with quality workers.

The whole immigration to the United States conversation will be skewed to incorrect(disingenuous)without the truth about Chattel slavery.

And of course add in imperialism and colonialism

going4roses said:

---

The whole immigration to the United States conversation will be skewed to incorrect(disingenuous)without the truth about Chattel slavery.

And of course add in imperialism and colonialism

---

I'm not sure I understand. My brother has a remote employee in Chile who would like to move here to work in their office but it's basically impossible under US immigration laws (h1-b lottery success rate is around 20% right now).

How does this relate to chattel slavery, imperialism and colonialism? Sometimes you can be too cryptic and I think it would be helpful to speak plainly on a discussion board.

sycasey said:

---

OdontoBear66 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

We can also talk about how birthrates have been falling in first world nations. That's not because of any conspiracy by the Democrats, that's just people freely choosing not to have kids. Immigration has always been America's handy antidote to that problem; we remain relevant and powerful because of our immigrants. Again, trying to close up all the borders is just dumb.

---

Funny how you dwell on the importance of immigration and seem to be taking some sort of high road. How about those who disagree with you on so much also agree that immigration is an absolute necessity, but needs to be done through an entry door legally, not across a river or through a fence illegally. Immigrants of all stripes, nationalities, and races make America better as they always have. And another possible surprise is that all DACAs should be made citizens. For goodness sake they have been here their whole lives (most). But then such sweet vibes are not attributed to those with whom you disagree.

Continue fighting MAGA boogeymen and Elon though. Meantime some super big problems in this country as perceived by most Americans, and deserved or not, they fall at those in the current administration.

---

If you think DACAs should be made citizens then the people you disagree with are Republicans, not Democrats.

---

I suggest you read more before you pigeon hole people. There are a lot of things I disagree with on policy. You might be surprised at my R v. Wade thoughts, but then categorize and criticize seems your preference.

BTW what box do you fit? Haha.

American born kids can't do those jobs ohhh the schooling system has been substandard for way too many.

Then other part is the assimilation part of those that believe in the American dream with others are living a daily nightmare

Unit2Sucks said:

---

OdontoBear66 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

We can also talk about how birthrates have been falling in first world nations. That's not because of any conspiracy by the Democrats, that's just people freely choosing not to have kids. Immigration has always been America's handy antidote to that problem; we remain relevant and powerful because of our immigrants. Again, trying to close up all the borders is just dumb.

---

Funny how you dwell on the importance of immigration and seem to be taking some sort of high road. How about those who disagree with you on so much also agree that immigration is an absolute necessity, but needs to be done through an entry door legally, not across a river or through a fence illegally. Immigrants of all stripes, nationalities, and races make America better as they always have. And another possible surprise is that all DACAs should be made citizens. For goodness sake they have been here their whole lives (most). But then such sweet vibes are not attributed to those with whom you disagree.

Continue fighting MAGA boogeymen and Elon though. Meantime some super big problems in this country as perceived by most Americans, and deserved or not, they fall at those in the current administration.

---

Sounds like you disagree with the Republican party on this as well. Republicans are opposed to increasing the availability of H1-Bs, which are just temporary work visas. It's another example of a Motte and Bailey. We all agree that illegal immigration is problematic but Republicans are a complete blocker on any legal immigration reform. That's why DACA happened instead of a duly enacted law. That's why we don't have a guest worker program and haven't made it easier for people to come here to work. We don't even have to make everyone citizens - we just need to increase our labor pool with quality workers.

---

And Dems do not want to have a solution either but wish to politicize it to add to their victim stances.

Wow! The projection is strong in this one.

The modern Republican Party is all about embracing victim status. Trump, the de facto leader of the party, is the biggest snowflake whiney byotch victim there ever was. The likes of which we never seen. Before.

OdontoBear66 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

OdontoBear66 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

We can also talk about how birthrates have been falling in first world nations. That's not because of any conspiracy by the Democrats, that's just people freely choosing not to have kids. Immigration has always been America's handy antidote to that problem; we remain relevant and powerful because of our immigrants. Again, trying to close up all the borders is just dumb.

---

Funny how you dwell on the importance of immigration and seem to be taking some sort of high road. How about those who disagree with you on so much also agree that immigration is an absolute necessity, but needs to be done through an entry door legally, not across a river or through a fence illegally. Immigrants of all stripes, nationalities, and races make America better as they always have. And another possible surprise is that all DACAs should be made citizens. For goodness sake they have been here their whole lives (most). But then such sweet vibes are not attributed to those with whom you disagree.

Continue fighting MAGA boogeymen and Elon though. Meantime some super big problems in this country as perceived by most Americans, and deserved or not, they fall at those in the current administration.

---

If you think DACAs should be made citizens then the people you disagree with are Republicans, not Democrats.

---

I suggest you read more before you pigeon hole people. There are a lot of things I disagree with on policy. You might be surprised at my R v. Wade thoughts, but then categorize and criticize seems your preference.

BTW what box do you fit? Haha.

---

Let me be clear: this is not just about you. It's about why reasonable, popular reforms like legalizing DACA immigrants can't get passed into law. It's because Republicans block it.

Are there things Democrats ask for that also aren't popular? Yes, sometimes. But in general the Democrats are not blocking reforms. Legalizing DACA + increased border security was a bipartisan deal on the table since the Obama presidency. Republicans kept stopping it.

going4roses said:

---

American born kids can't do those jobs ohhh the schooling system has been substandard for way too many.

Then other part is the assimilation part of those that believe in the American dream with others are living a daily nightmare

---

We have more open jobs than available workers so yes, American born kids aren't available for those jobs. Yes, our educational system is substandard particularly for people of color - no debate there. But opposing immigration to address the constrained labor pool won't reduce the impacts of chattel slavery.

I get that you are frustrated that black people aren't getting a fair shake, but I'm not sure how it's productive to say that no other problems can be dealt with until we solve chattel slavery. I know we're just here BSing on a college sports board, but let's be real. We have a lot of different problems and some of them are short-term actionable while others require concerted effort over decades, if not longer. Ignoring all of our pressing problems until we address the catastrophic effects of slavery on black people means we can't do anything else until when?

Recognizing the facts(admittance of harm done and to prepare for redress/restitution) to a critical mass point is necessary.


Can we do some simple things that effect day to day living (more like survival) but then we have 80 million people who don't think Biden won/ is the president etc etc this one steams directly from the bs. We have well educated posters on here on that among those 80 million unfortunately.
I just believe the bs that stems from white depravity(Supremacy) in all its outward forms has lot (definitely not all) but enough to point it is related in some way be it politics or religion and everything in between them

going4roses said:

---

Recognizing the facts(admittance of harm done and to prepare for redress/restitution) to a critical mass point is necessary.


Can we do some simple things that effect day to day living (more like survival) but then we have 80 million people who don't think Biden won/ is the president etc etc this one steams directly from the bs. We have well educated posters on here on that among those 80 million unfortunately.
I just believe the bs that stems from white depravity(Supremacy) in all its outward forms has lot (definitely not all) but enough to point it is related in some way be it politics or religion and everything in between them

---

White supremacy also often factors in to immigration restrictions. It's no accident that Trump didn't oppose immigration from Sweden.

sycasey said:

---

going4roses said:

---

Recognizing the facts(admittance of harm done and to prepare for redress/restitution) to a critical mass point is necessary.


Can we do some simple things that effect day to day living (more like survival) but then we have 80 million people who don't think Biden won/ is the president etc etc this one steams directly from the bs. We have well educated posters on here on that among those 80 million unfortunately.
I just believe the bs that stems from white depravity(Supremacy) in all its outward forms has lot (definitely not all) but enough to point it is related in some way be it politics or religion and everything in between them

---

White supremacy also often factors in to immigration restrictions. It's no accident that Trump didn't oppose immigration from Sweden.

---

Yep ws/wd exists globally in many forms white on white see Ukraine vs Putin ( has anyone seen him lately)

Unit2Sucks said:

---

going4roses said:

---

American born kids can't do those jobs ohhh the schooling system has been substandard for way too many.

Then other part is the assimilation part of those that believe in the American dream with others are living a daily nightmare

---

We have more open jobs than available workers so yes, American born kids aren't available for those jobs. Yes, our educational system is substandard particularly for people of color - no debate there. But opposing immigration to address the constrained labor pool won't reduce the impacts of chattel slavery.

I get that you are frustrated that black people aren't getting a fair shake, but I'm not sure how it's productive to say that no other problems can be dealt with until we solve chattel slavery. I know we're just here BSing on a college sports board, but let's be real. We have a lot of different problems and some of them are short-term actionable while others require concerted effort over decades, if not longer. Ignoring all of our pressing problems until we address the catastrophic effects of slavery on black people means we can't do anything else until when?

---

If you had written that our education system is 'suboptimal", I would have agreed -- no debate there. To the extent that it might be "substandard", is it actually the education system, or could it possibly have more to do with what students do in the hours that they aren't in the classroom?

Unit on the immigrants part

This is my issue

We calling victims of chattel slavery "immigrants" again?

Sigh.

— James Baldwin was a genius. (@incogneglo) May 23, 2022

Everyone did not migrate here and leaving how many came here it starts the minimizing and marginalizing of a certain demographic and goes downhill from from back then.

going4roses said:

---

Unit on the immigrants part

This is my issue

We calling victims of chattel slavery "immigrants" again?

Sigh.

— James Baldwin was a genius. (@incogneglo) May 23, 2022

Everyone did not migrate here and leaving how many came here it starts the minimizing and marginalizing of a certain demographic and goes downhill from from back then.

---

Who is calling slaves immigrants? I'm talking about allowing foreign workers in to help alleviate labor market problems. I'm not talking about calling black americans immigrants.

I understand that competition exists in the labor market and that theoretically allowing foreign workers could hurt some American employees, including black people. Unemployment for Black Americans is currently below 6% which is still high compared to white people but not historically high.

I'm most focused on H!-Bs because I work in tech. There are wage minimums that have to be adhered to in order to hire an H1-B which means they aren't competing with most working class laborers. Trump wanted to increase the H1-B minimum wage to $150k+ which is a little high but still something I would support. I think that combined with a massive increase in H1-B VISAs from current 85k to 5-10x as much would be good for our economy without hurting domestic workers.

But I'm still not seeing the connecting between this conversation and slavery. If you want to talk about white supremacy and its impact on immigration, I'm all for it, but that's a different discussion from the one you seem to be having.

Unit2Sucks said:

---

I understand that competition exists in the labor market and that theoretically allowing foreign workers could hurt some American employees, including black people.

---

There also isn't really any evidence for this. The studies basically show that immigration is either a net positive or a wash. As far as I can tell, Black Americans' problem is not the immigrants.

Hmm

I see where you coming from. The thoughts are not being (code switched properly) for many not of the diaspora to intake.

Logic was overrun with too much emotion that post

Fair point once again

going4roses said:

---

I see where you coming from. The thoughts are not being (code switched properly) for many not of the diaspora to intake.

Logic was overrun with too much emotion that post

Fair point once again

---

I know it's coming from a good place. Just want to make sure we understand each other which can be difficult on a message board with limited context. I don't blame your community for having a healthy distrust. Hell, many of the people most privileged by our system trust the government the least, so you would think they would sympathize.

100 %

And it's gotta be a way or …

Is this true that he is only being charged with one count of premeditated murder?

Umm why ?

Is this the set up to a light sentence or a couple years in crazy facility?

If he walks …

AunBear89 said:

---

Wow! The projection is strong in this one.

The modern Republican Party is all about embracing victim status. Trump, the de facto leader of the party, is the biggest snowflake whiney byotch victim there ever was. The likes of which we never seen. Before.

---

It's mind-boggling how "deaf" some Republicans are when it comes to calling out people playing the victim, and then ignore the King of The Blame Game and the whiniest President in the history of our country.

DiabloWags said:

---

AunBear89 said:

---

Wow! The projection is strong in this one.

The modern Republican Party is all about embracing victim status. Trump, the de facto leader of the party, is the biggest snowflake whiney byotch victim there ever was. The likes of which we never seen. Before.

---

It's mind-boggling how "deaf" some Republicans are when it comes to calling out people playing the victim, and then ignore the King of The Blame Game and the whiniest President in the history of our country.

---

It is a banner marketing production for linking all Republicans to Donald Trump. It just isn't so. Many find him as distasteful as I assume you do. But throw D. Trump out at every chance. He was retired in Jan 2021, and I suspect you would agree with me that his being a candidate for President in 2024 would undo all the probable positive Repubs in the Congress do in 2022. I inwardly wish every candidate he supports to lose in the primaries. And I am not the Lone Ranger.

OdontoBear66 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

AunBear89 said:

---

Wow! The projection is strong in this one.

The modern Republican Party is all about embracing victim status. Trump, the de facto leader of the party, is the biggest snowflake whiney byotch victim there ever was. The likes of which we never seen. Before.

---

It's mind-boggling how "deaf" some Republicans are when it comes to calling out people playing the victim, and then ignore the King of The Blame Game and the whiniest President in the history of our country.

---

It is a banner marketing production for linking all Republicans to Donald Trump. It just isn't so. Many find him as distasteful as I assume you do. But throw D. Trump out at every chance. He was retired in Jan 2021, and I suspect you would agree with me that his being a candidate for President in 2024 would undo all the probable positive Repubs in the Congress do in 2022. I inwardly wish every candidate he supports to lose in the primaries. And I am not the Lone Ranger.

---

Well, then you and the rest of your fearless Republican buddies need to clean up your party.

Like it or not, Trump is the face of your party. The number of Republican politicians and candidates that have lined up to bend the knee and kiss the ring and lick the arse shows as much. Pretending otherwise and clutching your pearls when Trump is brought up is disingenuous.

OdontoBear66 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

AunBear89 said:

---

Wow! The projection is strong in this one.

The modern Republican Party is all about embracing victim status. Trump, the de facto leader of the party, is the biggest snowflake whiney byotch victim there ever was. The likes of which we never seen. Before.

---

It's mind-boggling how "deaf" some Republicans are when it comes to calling out people playing the victim, and then ignore the King of The Blame Game and the whiniest President in the history of our country.

---

It is a banner marketing production for linking all Republicans to Donald Trump. It just isn't so. Many find him as distasteful as I assume you do. But throw D. Trump out at every chance. He was retired in Jan 2021, and I suspect you would agree with me that his being a candidate for President in 2024 would undo all the probable positive Repubs in the Congress do in 2022. I inwardly wish every candidate he supports to lose in the primaries. And I am not the Lone Ranger.

---

Seems like you haven't yet reckoned with where the party is. See below from a recent CBS poll and then tell me how you square your moderation in all things stance with the modern Republican party.

CBS also said 100% of those polled have a picture of Trump hanging up in their living room.

BearForce2 said:

---

CBS also said 100% of those polled have a picture of Trump hanging up in their living room.

---

Unit2Sucks said:

---

OdontoBear66 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

AunBear89 said:

---

Wow! The projection is strong in this one.

The modern Republican Party is all about embracing victim status. Trump, the de facto leader of the party, is the biggest snowflake whiney byotch victim there ever was. The likes of which we never seen. Before.

---

It's mind-boggling how "deaf" some Republicans are when it comes to calling out people playing the victim, and then ignore the King of The Blame Game and the whiniest President in the history of our country.

---

It is a banner marketing production for linking all Republicans to Donald Trump. It just isn't so. Many find him as distasteful as I assume you do. But throw D. Trump out at every chance. He was retired in Jan 2021, and I suspect you would agree with me that his being a candidate for President in 2024 would undo all the probable positive Repubs in the Congress do in 2022. I inwardly wish every candidate he supports to lose in the primaries. And I am not the Lone Ranger.

---

Seems like you haven't yet reckoned with where the party is. See below from a recent CBS poll and then tell me how you square your moderation in all things stance with the modern Republican party.

---

Don't square with the far right element at all, but just most likely like a moderate Democrat, I can hardly see me aligning with the other side. As with many things political you pick your core issues and try to feel they are satisfied with your position. If not, either change or become more apolitical. Heck, I've been a Cal fan for 70 years and am sure I have lost more than I have won, but never will change on that.

OdontoBear66 said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

AunBear89 said:

---

Wow! The projection is strong in this one.

The modern Republican Party is all about embracing victim status. Trump, the de facto leader of the party, is the biggest snowflake whiney byotch victim there ever was. The likes of which we never seen. Before.

---

It's mind-boggling how "deaf" some Republicans are when it comes to calling out people playing the victim, and then ignore the King of The Blame Game and the whiniest President in the history of our country.

---

It is a banner marketing production for linking all Republicans to Donald Trump. It just isn't so. Many find him as distasteful as I assume you do. But throw D. Trump out at every chance. He was retired in Jan 2021, and I suspect you would agree with me that his being a candidate for President in 2024 would undo all the probable positive Repubs in the Congress do in 2022. I inwardly wish every candidate he supports to lose in the primaries. And I am not the Lone Ranger.

---

It's literally comical that you think that Trump gives a **** about the GOP and what they may accomplish in the 2022 mid-terms. Have you not noticed that GOP leaders are still licking his bum? Do you really think that the GOP is taking Donald aside and saying, " Hey Mr. President, we've got a great chance to take back both aisles of Congress. Please step aside and lay low for awhile. Dont get in the way of what we can achieve this November."

Have you not learned anything about this narcissist in the last 5 or 6 years?
He doesnt care about the Party because he believes THAT HE IS THE PARTY!

Moreover, GOP leaders are still licking his bum.
He's gonna run in 2024.