The Midterm Elections

48,734 Views | 731 Replies | Last: 6 mo ago by dajo9
dajo9
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tequila4kapp said:

DiabloWags said:

tequila4kapp said:



BUT this billboard goes to my point. He's actually just got a lot of vague liberal "stuff" - not really concrete policies and certainly no authority to make policy change. A couple of years ago when conservatives complained about lifeguard captains making the same kind of money as a means of showing state government was bloated it was pooh-poohed. This guy does it with cop salaries and it works.



Anyone can look up the salaries of State and Local Employees.
It's easily accessible and you dont even have to be connected to George Soros.

Transparent California



That isn't the point. Billboards cost money. Comptroller candidates don't usually have money.


The other candidate raised twice as much money as Mejia from his fat-cat friends but Mejia outsmarted and outhustled him.

George Soros, lol
tequila4kapp
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Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

tequila4kapp said:

This election is over but for some counting and Georgia's run-off.

The underlying fundamentals were so skewed toward Rs that I am suspicious there's something more fundamental at play rather than anti-trump, abortion, etc. It has to be something like Ds on the ground get out the vote game developed during the Covid shutdown were leveraged to great effect. It's the most logical explanation to me, but we will learn in time.

In the meantime, Ds get some time to rightly gloat and Rs still have a solid path to quietly capturing the House and Senate. TBD.
The bigger picture is that this country doesn't trust Trump or the extremists controlling the GOP. According to exit polls, Democrats won independents nationwide (49-47) which is crazy in a midterm with economic challenges and Biden's approval numbers. Dobbs can only count for so much. The GOP lost with moderates 56-41. Let that sink in. Losing the middle by 15 points in a midterm with these fundamentals should be ringing alarm bells. But for gerrymandering, the GOP would be dead in the water. This was a repudiation of the modern GOP.

I don't think this is just about ground game or get out the vote. The GOP always does a great job turning out its voters but they are fundamentally selling an unpopular product. At some point the GOP will have to reckon with the fact that the GOP has consciously decided to serve only a fraction of its potential base.


I have never hidden my conservative bias and disdain for liberal fiscal policies. If the party of election deniers has lost my vote and has caused someone like me who hates the failed liberal fiscal policies with a passion and believes in strong law and order to nonetheless commit never to vote for a dishonest individual who promotes election lies, the party has to move on from Trump and populism and get back to responsible governing. Hopefully this gives them the courage to get back to focusing on promoting ideas and not on tribal wars and Trump appeasement.
Unfortunately for this country, you and t4k hold a minority view within the GOP. Trump represents the bigger view. People like movielover may be a minority conservative view on BI (now that so many Trump nuts have been banned) but it's definitely the majority view in the party. Obviously I don't see eye to eye with either wing of the GOP (although I *used* to be pretty close to your fiscal view) but I think it's a worthwhile POV to be represented. Unfortunately it requires too much 'splaining and most of the GOP doesn't really care so the party leaders doubled own on white grievance and culture wars and that led to people no longer caring about traditional GOP values. Now all that's left is culture war and white grievance and it is what it is. The GOP will be wrecked for a while.

concordtom said:





That's interesting because Dems typically win the popular vote in presidential elections (despite losing the electoral college count).
And sad/funny that the conclusion is a call to focus more on gerrymandering. That's actually a really bad idea, as gerrymandering needs to be stopped by all everywhere, not taken to further extreme.
They still aren't done counting the votes. Now a 6M vote lead isn't something I expect to evaporate but I do think it'll shrink by at least a few million votes.

I do think that this is largely a combination of both gerrymandering and the fact that more GOP senate seats were up this year than Dem seats. In a midterm, senate seats drive turnout.


If you are right, the party is done. I think there is a fairly large base that just want fighters on conservative policies but don't care for the divisiveness of Trump or election deniers. And I suspect a big portion of the former republican base left to be independent and some socially conservative democrats became Trumpian republicans. I think most Americans are moderately conservative on economic issues but I may be wrong. If we cater to those folks, I don't care if we lose the Dixiecrats.
This is a fundamental disagreement. I think most Americans are financially irresponsible and don't expect our government to be any different. Even the traditional "fiscal conservatives" in the GOP far more about cutting taxes than they do about making smart spending decisions - see how the military is always overfunded to the point of waste, and it's never enough for the GOP.

I suspect if you ask America whether they would add $1 to the federal debt in exchange for $1 in their pockets, close to 95% would say yes.
Right or wrong, I used to believe the R party was about fiscal responsibility. If it ever was it sure as hell isn't anymore. The establishment wing has demonstrated for years (decades) they are more than happy to spend wildly. There was a period of time where they at least argued their fiscal policy would grow the economy and generate additional revenue. Even if that didn't work they at least sold themselves as having a plan. (We can debate the merits of that position separately). Now there's nothing, they just spend and spend. At least Dems raise taxes on the rich to supposedly pay for their spending (again, we can argue about the wisdom of that policy or if it actually works separately, but at least D's pay lip service to something that approximates fiscal maturity).
DiabloWags
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dajo9 said:



The other candidate raised twice as much money as Mejia from his fat-cat friends but Mejia outsmarted and outhustled him.

George Soros, lol

Hahahahahhaaaaaa!
"Cults don't end well. They really don't."
tequila4kapp
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dajo9 said:

tequila4kapp said:

DiabloWags said:

tequila4kapp said:



BUT this billboard goes to my point. He's actually just got a lot of vague liberal "stuff" - not really concrete policies and certainly no authority to make policy change. A couple of years ago when conservatives complained about lifeguard captains making the same kind of money as a means of showing state government was bloated it was pooh-poohed. This guy does it with cop salaries and it works.



Anyone can look up the salaries of State and Local Employees.
It's easily accessible and you dont even have to be connected to George Soros.

Transparent California



That isn't the point. Billboards cost money. Comptroller candidates don't usually have money.


The other candidate raised twice as much money as Mejia from his fat-cat friends but Mejia outsmarted and outhustled him.

George Soros, lol

Edit

Your info and your conclusions are incomplete.
- Mejia had 65 additional individual donors over Koretz (543 > 478).
- The most common amount given to Koretz was the $1500 max (109 times); it was $250 for Mejia (76 times)
- where Koretz money came from, geographically: 43% (110k) is from within the city, 20% (51k) is potentially within the city and 33% (82k) is outside LA but inside the state.
- where Mejia's money came from, geographically: 41% / city, 15% / potentially inside the city; 24% not itemized and therefore no location revealed. (Note $ amounts not reported per percentile and that mystery 24% is a mystery re source/type)
- Mejia's lower donation amounts triggered @$1200 matching funds from the city meant to level the playing field in elections.
Source: https://crown.la/2022/11/06/city-controller-fundraising

I cannot find anything that states total campaign funds, inclusive of matching funds and potentially non "individual" contributions.

Mejia did smartly "hustle" to benefit from the matching funds. Short additional data we don't know total funds available to either party. It's speculative of me (obviously) to say Soros. That financial space may have been filled by the matching funds. Or we may not know because reporting may be for individual contributions, only.
okaydo
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Unit2Sucks
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tequila4kapp said:

Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

tequila4kapp said:

This election is over but for some counting and Georgia's run-off.

The underlying fundamentals were so skewed toward Rs that I am suspicious there's something more fundamental at play rather than anti-trump, abortion, etc. It has to be something like Ds on the ground get out the vote game developed during the Covid shutdown were leveraged to great effect. It's the most logical explanation to me, but we will learn in time.

In the meantime, Ds get some time to rightly gloat and Rs still have a solid path to quietly capturing the House and Senate. TBD.
The bigger picture is that this country doesn't trust Trump or the extremists controlling the GOP. According to exit polls, Democrats won independents nationwide (49-47) which is crazy in a midterm with economic challenges and Biden's approval numbers. Dobbs can only count for so much. The GOP lost with moderates 56-41. Let that sink in. Losing the middle by 15 points in a midterm with these fundamentals should be ringing alarm bells. But for gerrymandering, the GOP would be dead in the water. This was a repudiation of the modern GOP.

I don't think this is just about ground game or get out the vote. The GOP always does a great job turning out its voters but they are fundamentally selling an unpopular product. At some point the GOP will have to reckon with the fact that the GOP has consciously decided to serve only a fraction of its potential base.


I have never hidden my conservative bias and disdain for liberal fiscal policies. If the party of election deniers has lost my vote and has caused someone like me who hates the failed liberal fiscal policies with a passion and believes in strong law and order to nonetheless commit never to vote for a dishonest individual who promotes election lies, the party has to move on from Trump and populism and get back to responsible governing. Hopefully this gives them the courage to get back to focusing on promoting ideas and not on tribal wars and Trump appeasement.
Unfortunately for this country, you and t4k hold a minority view within the GOP. Trump represents the bigger view. People like movielover may be a minority conservative view on BI (now that so many Trump nuts have been banned) but it's definitely the majority view in the party. Obviously I don't see eye to eye with either wing of the GOP (although I *used* to be pretty close to your fiscal view) but I think it's a worthwhile POV to be represented. Unfortunately it requires too much 'splaining and most of the GOP doesn't really care so the party leaders doubled own on white grievance and culture wars and that led to people no longer caring about traditional GOP values. Now all that's left is culture war and white grievance and it is what it is. The GOP will be wrecked for a while.

concordtom said:





That's interesting because Dems typically win the popular vote in presidential elections (despite losing the electoral college count).
And sad/funny that the conclusion is a call to focus more on gerrymandering. That's actually a really bad idea, as gerrymandering needs to be stopped by all everywhere, not taken to further extreme.
They still aren't done counting the votes. Now a 6M vote lead isn't something I expect to evaporate but I do think it'll shrink by at least a few million votes.

I do think that this is largely a combination of both gerrymandering and the fact that more GOP senate seats were up this year than Dem seats. In a midterm, senate seats drive turnout.


If you are right, the party is done. I think there is a fairly large base that just want fighters on conservative policies but don't care for the divisiveness of Trump or election deniers. And I suspect a big portion of the former republican base left to be independent and some socially conservative democrats became Trumpian republicans. I think most Americans are moderately conservative on economic issues but I may be wrong. If we cater to those folks, I don't care if we lose the Dixiecrats.
This is a fundamental disagreement. I think most Americans are financially irresponsible and don't expect our government to be any different. Even the traditional "fiscal conservatives" in the GOP far more about cutting taxes than they do about making smart spending decisions - see how the military is always overfunded to the point of waste, and it's never enough for the GOP.

I suspect if you ask America whether they would add $1 to the federal debt in exchange for $1 in their pockets, close to 95% would say yes.
Right or wrong, I used to believe the R party was about fiscal responsibility. If it ever was it sure as hell isn't anymore. The establishment wing has demonstrated for years (decades) they are more than happy to spend wildly. There was a period of time where they at least argued their fiscal policy would grow the economy and generate additional revenue. Even if that didn't work they at least sold themselves as having a plan. (We can debate the merits of that position separately). Now there's nothing, they just spend and spend. At least Dems raise taxes on the rich to supposedly pay for their spending (again, we can argue about the wisdom of that policy or if it actually works separately, but at least D's pay lip service to something that approximates fiscal maturity).
Completely agree. I find myself caught between the social side where I am far closer to the Ds than GOPs (by a factor of 100) and fiscally where I am far closer to what I used to pretend the GOP stood for than where either party is right now. Both spend on things I don't like and both now tax me in ways I don't like (the TJCA was a disaster). I think that a lot of fiscal conservatives gave the GOP the benefit of the doubt on that side for far too long without holding the GOP accountable at all. What we have seen in my lifetime is that the GOP always raises the deficit and the D's tend to have it go down annually (granted, in part that's because the GOP typically refuses to pass any spending bills unless they are in power).

I don't know how it changes, but we are far from seeing the GOP pivot to normalcy. If Trump dies tomorrow, DeSantis takes over the party and his entire ethos is being "anti woke mob". *** is that even about? He runs his state from one Fox News soundbite to the next and seems to have no policy positions other than owning the libs and winning over the worst GOPers he can.
DiabloWags
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tequila4kapp said:


Right or wrong, I used to believe the R party was about fiscal responsibility. If it ever was it sure as hell isn't anymore.

Just curious.

Why have you believed that the GOP was fiscally responsible?
Can you point to any actual data while the GOP has been in power in which they've been fiscally responsible?

As I recall, even conservative Ronald Reagan (who I voted for) watched the national debt TRIPLE from $900 Billion in 1980 to $2.6 Trillion in 1988. The debt ceiling was also raised 18 times during his term, the most of any President in history.
"Cults don't end well. They really don't."
dajo9
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tequila4kapp said:

dajo9 said:

calbear93 said:

tequila4kapp said:

calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

tequila4kapp said:

This election is over but for some counting and Georgia's run-off.

The underlying fundamentals were so skewed toward Rs that I am suspicious there's something more fundamental at play rather than anti-trump, abortion, etc. It has to be something like Ds on the ground get out the vote game developed during the Covid shutdown were leveraged to great effect. It's the most logical explanation to me, but we will learn in time.

In the meantime, Ds get some time to rightly gloat and Rs still have a solid path to quietly capturing the House and Senate. TBD.
The bigger picture is that this country doesn't trust Trump or the extremists controlling the GOP. According to exit polls, Democrats won independents nationwide (49-47) which is crazy in a midterm with economic challenges and Biden's approval numbers. Dobbs can only count for so much. The GOP lost with moderates 56-41. Let that sink in. Losing the middle by 15 points in a midterm with these fundamentals should be ringing alarm bells. But for gerrymandering, the GOP would be dead in the water. This was a repudiation of the modern GOP.

I don't think this is just about ground game or get out the vote. The GOP always does a great job turning out its voters but they are fundamentally selling an unpopular product. At some point the GOP will have to reckon with the fact that the GOP has consciously decided to serve only a fraction of its potential base.


I have never hidden my conservative bias and disdain for liberal fiscal policies. If the party of election deniers has lost my vote and has caused someone like me who hates the failed liberal fiscal policies with a passion and believes in strong law and order to nonetheless commit never to vote for a dishonest individual who promotes election lies, the party has to move on from Trump and populism and get back to responsible governing. Hopefully this gives them the courage to get back to focusing on promoting ideas and not on tribal wars and Trump appeasement.
I said something similar. If T has lost people like me…his window has closed. I disagree about Rs needing abandon populism. The emerging coalition of working class, Hispanics and African Americans is the demographic future of the party (+finding a way to appeal to suburban and single women).

Re women, see Michigan's constitutional amendment re Abortion. Abortion is a fundamental right, never allowed to ignore health of the mom BUT the government CAN "regulate" from the point of viability. Uh…that's a position huge swaths of Rs would have been on board with pre-Dobbs but today that's sold as a D win. Time for conservatives to wake up.


I agree with you. I should have been clearer. I don't want George Wallace / Trump form of populism that appeals to the baser or racist side of Americans. I would want an inclusive Republican Party that focuses on the appeal of fiscal responsibility, encouragement of market competition and robust legal immigration while enforcing borders, less regulation and strong law and order. We would win every election in purple states if we just focused on strong candidates with strong conservative principles. Instead, the party resorts to Qanon / Dixiecrats who would have been popular democrats in the south 60 years ago. Hope this wakes up the party because I think we would have better ideas and appeal on economic issues alone.
Joe Biden already occupies that space
I really appreciate that we've had about 24 hours of civil discussion. In that spirit I'll offer the opinion that saying Biden is pro law and order, pro border security, pro market competition, pro fiscal responsibility would be about the equivalent to me saying Trump is pro-women's rights.
I will offer the opinion that you are misinformed on the issues and listen to too much right wing media.
tequila4kapp
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dajo9 said:

tequila4kapp said:

okaydo said:

tequila4kapp said:

dajo9 said:

Dear Baby Boomers,
Meet your new overlords

Thankfully I will only have to live with the idiocy of people like this guy for a couple of decades before I'm pushing up daisies. Too bad I may not be around to see the pendulum swing the other way when their stupid ideas fail.

How was he able to beat his opponent by so much?
















Meanwhile, his opponent hasn't called to concede.





This dude would even tweet the salaries of LAPD officers. Like this guy Cory Palka made $401,461 in salary and benefits in 2020, the year before he retired.









1st, he's the Comptroller. Since when does a candidate for that position have enough money to have a slick website, including some very smart graphical information, and the ability to have billboards all over the city? Call me conspiratorial but this smells of Soros backed nonesense.

2nd, his website DID have some smart stuff. The interactive maps that showed where affordable housing exists.

BUT this billboard goes to my point. He's actually just got a lot of vague liberal "stuff" - not really concrete policies and certainly no authority to make policy change. A couple of years ago when conservatives complained about lifeguard captains making the same kind of money as a means of showing state government was bloated it was pooh-poohed. This guy does it with cop salaries and it works.


Gen Z is going to run circles around the old guard
Mejia was born in 1990, making him a Millenial.

This "outsider" also ran for Congress and lost in 2016, 2017 and 2018.
sycasey
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Unit2Sucks said:



concordtom said:





That's interesting because Dems typically win the popular vote in presidential elections (despite losing the electoral college count).
And sad/funny that the conclusion is a call to focus more on gerrymandering. That's actually a really bad idea, as gerrymandering needs to be stopped by all everywhere, not taken to further extreme.
They still aren't done counting the votes. Now a 6M vote lead isn't something I expect to evaporate but I do think it'll shrink by at least a few million votes.

I do think that this is largely a combination of both gerrymandering and the fact that more GOP senate seats were up this year than Dem seats. In a midterm, senate seats drive turnout.
There is still a LOT of outstanding mail vote left to count in California, as there always is at this stage. It should tilt heavily Democrat and bring down that margin significantly.

(Also, by the way, the late counting in CA could potentially give Dems the seat flips they need to hold the House. That's far from certain, but it's possible.)
dajo9
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tequila4kapp said:

dajo9 said:

tequila4kapp said:

DiabloWags said:

tequila4kapp said:



BUT this billboard goes to my point. He's actually just got a lot of vague liberal "stuff" - not really concrete policies and certainly no authority to make policy change. A couple of years ago when conservatives complained about lifeguard captains making the same kind of money as a means of showing state government was bloated it was pooh-poohed. This guy does it with cop salaries and it works.



Anyone can look up the salaries of State and Local Employees.
It's easily accessible and you dont even have to be connected to George Soros.

Transparent California



That isn't the point. Billboards cost money. Comptroller candidates don't usually have money.


The other candidate raised twice as much money as Mejia from his fat-cat friends but Mejia outsmarted and outhustled him.

George Soros, lol

Edit

Your info and your conclusions are incomplete.
- Mejia had 65 additional individual donors over Koretz (543 > 478).
- The most common amount given to Koretz was the $1500 max (109 times); it was $250 for Mejia (76 times)
- where Koretz money came from, geographically: 43% (110k) is from within the city, 20% (51k) is potentially within the city and 33% (82k) is outside LA but inside the state.
- where Mejia's money came from, geographically: 41% / city, 15% / potentially inside the city; 24% not itemized and therefore no location revealed. (Note $ amounts not reported per percentile and that mystery 24% is a mystery re source/type)
- Mejia's lower donation amounts triggered @$1200 matching funds from the city meant to level the playing field in elections.
Source: https://crown.la/2022/11/06/city-controller-fundraising

I cannot find anything that states total campaign funds, inclusive of matching funds and potentially non "individual" contributions.

Mejia did smartly "hustle" to benefit from the matching funds. Short additional data we don't know total funds available to either party. It's speculative of me (obviously) to say Soros. That financial space may have been filled by the matching funds. Or we may not know because reporting may be for individual contributions, only.
Keep digging. I'm sure eventually you will unravel the mystery of how a social media savvy local candidate was able to put up some billboards.
sycasey
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Meanwhile, in Wisconsin . . .

tequila4kapp
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sycasey said:

Meanwhile, in Wisconsin . . .


It could be partisan gerrymandering but it could also be a more sophisticated answer too. Consider that those Blue sections are likely larger African American populations. Districts have to be drawn to give AA's a certain amount of representation or face legal challenges, which defacto produces a certain level of gerrymandering. Not saying that's the full answer but it could be at least part of it
tequila4kapp
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dajo9 said:

tequila4kapp said:

dajo9 said:

tequila4kapp said:

DiabloWags said:

tequila4kapp said:



BUT this billboard goes to my point. He's actually just got a lot of vague liberal "stuff" - not really concrete policies and certainly no authority to make policy change. A couple of years ago when conservatives complained about lifeguard captains making the same kind of money as a means of showing state government was bloated it was pooh-poohed. This guy does it with cop salaries and it works.



Anyone can look up the salaries of State and Local Employees.
It's easily accessible and you dont even have to be connected to George Soros.

Transparent California



That isn't the point. Billboards cost money. Comptroller candidates don't usually have money.


The other candidate raised twice as much money as Mejia from his fat-cat friends but Mejia outsmarted and outhustled him.

George Soros, lol

Edit

Your info and your conclusions are incomplete.
- Mejia had 65 additional individual donors over Koretz (543 > 478).
- The most common amount given to Koretz was the $1500 max (109 times); it was $250 for Mejia (76 times)
- where Koretz money came from, geographically: 43% (110k) is from within the city, 20% (51k) is potentially within the city and 33% (82k) is outside LA but inside the state.
- where Mejia's money came from, geographically: 41% / city, 15% / potentially inside the city; 24% not itemized and therefore no location revealed. (Note $ amounts not reported per percentile and that mystery 24% is a mystery re source/type)
- Mejia's lower donation amounts triggered @$1200 matching funds from the city meant to level the playing field in elections.
Source: https://crown.la/2022/11/06/city-controller-fundraising

I cannot find anything that states total campaign funds, inclusive of matching funds and potentially non "individual" contributions.

Mejia did smartly "hustle" to benefit from the matching funds. Short additional data we don't know total funds available to either party. It's speculative of me (obviously) to say Soros. That financial space may have been filled by the matching funds. Or we may not know because reporting may be for individual contributions, only.
Keep digging. I'm sure eventually you will unravel the mystery of how a social media savvy local candidate was able to put up some billboards.
Not sure why the snark is needed. At least part of the answer is included in my shared data - he utilized a government system to get matching funds.
sycasey
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tequila4kapp said:

sycasey said:

Meanwhile, in Wisconsin . . .


It could be partisan gerrymandering but it could also be a more sophisticated answer too. Consider that those Blue sections are likely larger African American populations. Districts have to be drawn to give AA's a certain amount of representation or face legal challenges, which defacto produces a certain level of gerrymandering. Not saying that's the full answer but it could be at least part of it
Part of it is that Democrats pack themselves into smaller urban areas and make themselves more susceptible to this problem. But you also have to gerrymander extremely aggressively to get a result like 50% of the vote and 70% of the seats. Gerrymandering is by far the biggest reason for this.

And since Wisconsin has no popular referendum process, the people there are stuck. No way to fix it unless the courts step in.
bearister
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America is still on the brink of Trumpism fueling hate, paranoia and violence


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/10/america-trumpism-hate-paranoia-violence-bullying?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
blungld
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tequila4kapp said:

..."the underlying fundamentals were so skewed toward Rs..."
Either that or your framing and understanding of those underlying fundamentals is so biased and within a right-wing media bubble that you literally can not imagine that other people see the country and those fundamentals differently.

Occam's Razor, what is more likely, a MINORITY aging demographic that also comprises conspiracy theorists and non-college educated aggressive white males all of whom feel their status in society under threat and tend to tribalism, authoritarianism, hierarchy, regression, and cultist loyalty seeing the fundamentals as in their favor and so the results seem out of step somehow, or the MAJORITY of reasonable people could plainly see the threat of the first group and stand on the plurality on almost all social wedge issues and being the larger group with better more well-reasoned ideology and policy and politicians they carried the day because they are the majority and those are the actual fundamentals?
calbear93
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Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

tequila4kapp said:

This election is over but for some counting and Georgia's run-off.

The underlying fundamentals were so skewed toward Rs that I am suspicious there's something more fundamental at play rather than anti-trump, abortion, etc. It has to be something like Ds on the ground get out the vote game developed during the Covid shutdown were leveraged to great effect. It's the most logical explanation to me, but we will learn in time.

In the meantime, Ds get some time to rightly gloat and Rs still have a solid path to quietly capturing the House and Senate. TBD.
The bigger picture is that this country doesn't trust Trump or the extremists controlling the GOP. According to exit polls, Democrats won independents nationwide (49-47) which is crazy in a midterm with economic challenges and Biden's approval numbers. Dobbs can only count for so much. The GOP lost with moderates 56-41. Let that sink in. Losing the middle by 15 points in a midterm with these fundamentals should be ringing alarm bells. But for gerrymandering, the GOP would be dead in the water. This was a repudiation of the modern GOP.

I don't think this is just about ground game or get out the vote. The GOP always does a great job turning out its voters but they are fundamentally selling an unpopular product. At some point the GOP will have to reckon with the fact that the GOP has consciously decided to serve only a fraction of its potential base.


I have never hidden my conservative bias and disdain for liberal fiscal policies. If the party of election deniers has lost my vote and has caused someone like me who hates the failed liberal fiscal policies with a passion and believes in strong law and order to nonetheless commit never to vote for a dishonest individual who promotes election lies, the party has to move on from Trump and populism and get back to responsible governing. Hopefully this gives them the courage to get back to focusing on promoting ideas and not on tribal wars and Trump appeasement.
Unfortunately for this country, you and t4k hold a minority view within the GOP. Trump represents the bigger view. People like movielover may be a minority conservative view on BI (now that so many Trump nuts have been banned) but it's definitely the majority view in the party. Obviously I don't see eye to eye with either wing of the GOP (although I *used* to be pretty close to your fiscal view) but I think it's a worthwhile POV to be represented. Unfortunately it requires too much 'splaining and most of the GOP doesn't really care so the party leaders doubled own on white grievance and culture wars and that led to people no longer caring about traditional GOP values. Now all that's left is culture war and white grievance and it is what it is. The GOP will be wrecked for a while.

concordtom said:





That's interesting because Dems typically win the popular vote in presidential elections (despite losing the electoral college count).
And sad/funny that the conclusion is a call to focus more on gerrymandering. That's actually a really bad idea, as gerrymandering needs to be stopped by all everywhere, not taken to further extreme.
They still aren't done counting the votes. Now a 6M vote lead isn't something I expect to evaporate but I do think it'll shrink by at least a few million votes.

I do think that this is largely a combination of both gerrymandering and the fact that more GOP senate seats were up this year than Dem seats. In a midterm, senate seats drive turnout.


If you are right, the party is done. I think there is a fairly large base that just want fighters on conservative policies but don't care for the divisiveness of Trump or election deniers. And I suspect a big portion of the former republican base left to be independent and some socially conservative democrats became Trumpian republicans. I think most Americans are moderately conservative on economic issues but I may be wrong. If we cater to those folks, I don't care if we lose the Dixiecrats.
This is a fundamental disagreement. I think most Americans are financially irresponsible and don't expect our government to be any different. Even the traditional "fiscal conservatives" in the GOP far more about cutting taxes than they do about making smart spending decisions - see how the military is always overfunded to the point of waste, and it's never enough for the GOP.

I suspect if you ask America whether they would add $1 to the federal debt in exchange for $1 in their pockets, close to 95% would say yes.
That applies to both parties. I remember seeing a post about what our revenue is and what our expenses are as a means of saying Democrats are out of control by spending way more than the revenue. I don't disagree. But the opposite side of the argument is the unreasonable tax cuts that reduced revenue. It is crazy to spend like drunken sailor when you are in debt, but it is also irresponsible to reduce revenue when you are in debt. I understand reduction in corporate tax rate because, having been an M&A lawyer, I understand the real threat of corporate inversion and countries like Ireland and even socialist countries like France attracting inversions with much lower tax rate for global companies. People here hated it but the corporate tax portion of TCJA did a great job of making it more competitive. Countries agreeing to a minimum global corporate tax rate would be great but we cannot go way above the minimum global corporate tax rate even if that proposal passed. But we had no fiscal reason to reduce personal income tax. That was just as crazy as the free spending by the democrats during global supply chain constraints.

I know most people are not fiscally responsible. They spent above their means and they missed out on one of the greatest wealth creation period in history. Anyone who was employed during the last ten years and did not accumulate at least a few million in wealth needed some basic financial education.

But the leaders who are educated should act more responsibly for the future generation. Most of us saw inflation coming years ago and wrote about it here - but people just want to think along political lines and google searches as if the teachings of decades of history is irrelevant.

But you and I disagree as to what type of fiscal messaging resonates. Most voters, while they all want to protect their own special interest, are against free spending for others and are generally for more fiscal restraint.
DiabloWags
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sycasey said:



And since Wisconsin has no popular referendum process, the people there are stuck. No way to fix it unless the courts step in.

The Courts have already stepped in:

In 2021, Mr. Evers led an initiative to have a nonpartisan commission create new maps of state legislative districts. The effort failed after the state Supreme Court in April picked a map similar to the 2011 version, which had helped Republicans gain majorities in the state Senate and the state Assembly.

Mr. Evers has made the map a key plank of his re-election campaign. The issue got a surge of media attention after social-media posts of audio from a recent Michels campaign event in which the candidate said, "Republicans will never lose another election in Wisconsin after I'm elected governor."
Mr. Evers on Friday released a campaign ad that began with a narrator saying: "Did you know Tim Michels pledged to rig future elections?"

Mr. Michels has repeatedly declined to comment on the remarks and the issue of redistricting. In the past, he pledged to get rid of the bipartisan Wisconsin Elections Commission, which administers and enforces voting rules in the state

.In Tight Wisconsin Governor's Race, Gerrymandering Takes Center Stage - WSJ

But the redistricting issue is uniquely framed in Wisconsin and has played an integral role in the campaign in a state that has been described by John Johnson, a researcher at Marquette University Law School, as "not one moderate state," but "one very conservative state overlapping another very liberal one."

Redistricting has been a concern since the state's maps were considerably redrawn in 2011 when then-Gov. Scott Walker, a Republican, was in office. Those maps, which Democrats at the time contended favored the GOP, were litigated in state and federal courts and eventually at the U.S. Supreme Court, which declined to rule on the constitutionality of the maps and sent it back to a district court.

The 2011 maps stayed in place, and Mr. Evers made redistricting an issue in his 2018 campaign for governor. He attempted to put the nonpartisan People's Maps Commission in charge of redistricting to take the process out of the hands of the Wisconsin Legislature.

"All the statewide officials elected are Democrats," which shows Democrats fare well in elections, Mr. Evers said in late October. But about two-thirds of the members of the state Legislature are Republicanwhich he described as "clearly gerrymandering."





"Cults don't end well. They really don't."
GoOskie
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This guy is pretty confident Dems hold control of the House.

This just in: Republicans find another whistleblower who claims Hillary's emails were proven to be on Hunter's laptop while Obama spied on tRump as he sat (shat?) upon his golden toilet. Gym Jordan afraid whistle blower may be in danger of abduction by aliens in cahoots with Democrats.
calbear93
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Unit2Sucks said:

tequila4kapp said:

Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

tequila4kapp said:

This election is over but for some counting and Georgia's run-off.

The underlying fundamentals were so skewed toward Rs that I am suspicious there's something more fundamental at play rather than anti-trump, abortion, etc. It has to be something like Ds on the ground get out the vote game developed during the Covid shutdown were leveraged to great effect. It's the most logical explanation to me, but we will learn in time.

In the meantime, Ds get some time to rightly gloat and Rs still have a solid path to quietly capturing the House and Senate. TBD.
The bigger picture is that this country doesn't trust Trump or the extremists controlling the GOP. According to exit polls, Democrats won independents nationwide (49-47) which is crazy in a midterm with economic challenges and Biden's approval numbers. Dobbs can only count for so much. The GOP lost with moderates 56-41. Let that sink in. Losing the middle by 15 points in a midterm with these fundamentals should be ringing alarm bells. But for gerrymandering, the GOP would be dead in the water. This was a repudiation of the modern GOP.

I don't think this is just about ground game or get out the vote. The GOP always does a great job turning out its voters but they are fundamentally selling an unpopular product. At some point the GOP will have to reckon with the fact that the GOP has consciously decided to serve only a fraction of its potential base.


I have never hidden my conservative bias and disdain for liberal fiscal policies. If the party of election deniers has lost my vote and has caused someone like me who hates the failed liberal fiscal policies with a passion and believes in strong law and order to nonetheless commit never to vote for a dishonest individual who promotes election lies, the party has to move on from Trump and populism and get back to responsible governing. Hopefully this gives them the courage to get back to focusing on promoting ideas and not on tribal wars and Trump appeasement.
Unfortunately for this country, you and t4k hold a minority view within the GOP. Trump represents the bigger view. People like movielover may be a minority conservative view on BI (now that so many Trump nuts have been banned) but it's definitely the majority view in the party. Obviously I don't see eye to eye with either wing of the GOP (although I *used* to be pretty close to your fiscal view) but I think it's a worthwhile POV to be represented. Unfortunately it requires too much 'splaining and most of the GOP doesn't really care so the party leaders doubled own on white grievance and culture wars and that led to people no longer caring about traditional GOP values. Now all that's left is culture war and white grievance and it is what it is. The GOP will be wrecked for a while.

concordtom said:





That's interesting because Dems typically win the popular vote in presidential elections (despite losing the electoral college count).
And sad/funny that the conclusion is a call to focus more on gerrymandering. That's actually a really bad idea, as gerrymandering needs to be stopped by all everywhere, not taken to further extreme.
They still aren't done counting the votes. Now a 6M vote lead isn't something I expect to evaporate but I do think it'll shrink by at least a few million votes.

I do think that this is largely a combination of both gerrymandering and the fact that more GOP senate seats were up this year than Dem seats. In a midterm, senate seats drive turnout.


If you are right, the party is done. I think there is a fairly large base that just want fighters on conservative policies but don't care for the divisiveness of Trump or election deniers. And I suspect a big portion of the former republican base left to be independent and some socially conservative democrats became Trumpian republicans. I think most Americans are moderately conservative on economic issues but I may be wrong. If we cater to those folks, I don't care if we lose the Dixiecrats.
This is a fundamental disagreement. I think most Americans are financially irresponsible and don't expect our government to be any different. Even the traditional "fiscal conservatives" in the GOP far more about cutting taxes than they do about making smart spending decisions - see how the military is always overfunded to the point of waste, and it's never enough for the GOP.

I suspect if you ask America whether they would add $1 to the federal debt in exchange for $1 in their pockets, close to 95% would say yes.
Right or wrong, I used to believe the R party was about fiscal responsibility. If it ever was it sure as hell isn't anymore. The establishment wing has demonstrated for years (decades) they are more than happy to spend wildly. There was a period of time where they at least argued their fiscal policy would grow the economy and generate additional revenue. Even if that didn't work they at least sold themselves as having a plan. (We can debate the merits of that position separately). Now there's nothing, they just spend and spend. At least Dems raise taxes on the rich to supposedly pay for their spending (again, we can argue about the wisdom of that policy or if it actually works separately, but at least D's pay lip service to something that approximates fiscal maturity).
Completely agree. I find myself caught between the social side where I am far closer to the Ds than GOPs (by a factor of 100) and fiscally where I am far closer to what I used to pretend the GOP stood for than where either party is right now. Both spend on things I don't like and both now tax me in ways I don't like (the TJCA was a disaster). I think that a lot of fiscal conservatives gave the GOP the benefit of the doubt on that side for far too long without holding the GOP accountable at all. What we have seen in my lifetime is that the GOP always raises the deficit and the D's tend to have it go down annually (granted, in part that's because the GOP typically refuses to pass any spending bills unless they are in power).

I don't know how it changes, but we are far from seeing the GOP pivot to normalcy. If Trump dies tomorrow, DeSantis takes over the party and his entire ethos is being "anti woke mob". *** is that even about? He runs his state from one Fox News soundbite to the next and seems to have no policy positions other than owning the libs and winning over the worst GOPers he can.
About DeSantis - unlike Trump, when you go beyond the social populism and anti-woke messaging, DeSantis is actually an effective leader and is intelligent and competent. You don't go from middle class to graduating with honors at Yale, graduating with honors from Harvard Law School, decorated service as a lawyer in the military, and lead Florida through number of disasters without being extremely competent and intelligent (more than everyone else here). People I know living in Florida who are very moderate and hate Trump love DeSantis. They voted for Biden, would never vote for Trump but would vote for DeSantis in a heartbeat. I would vote for him over Biden.
tequila4kapp
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blungld said:

tequila4kapp said:

..."the underlying fundamentals were so skewed toward Rs..."
Either that or your framing and understanding of those underlying fundamentals is so biased and within a right-wing media bubble that you literally can not imagine that other people see the country and those fundamentals differently.

Occam's Razor, what is more likely, a MINORITY aging demographic that also comprises conspiracy theorists and non-college educated aggressive white males all of whom feel their status in society under threat and tend to tribalism, authoritarianism, hierarchy, regression, and cultist loyalty seeing the fundamentals as in their favor and so the results seem out of step somehow, or the MAJORITY of reasonable people could plainly see the threat of the first group and stand on the plurality on almost all social wedge issues and being the larger group with better more well-reasoned ideology and policy and politicians they carried the day because they are the majority and those are the actual fundamentals?
I'm effectively repeating a CNN report about Presidential approval rating + party in power + (I think) economic indicators. Per CNN the 10(?) times those conditions have existed the party in power has - until this time - won more than 195(?) seats in the House. The fact it is a historical trend is why news agencies and political scientists refer to it as the underlying fundamentals.

Is CNN now a right wing entity controlled by a cabal of secret old white guys? Sheesh, give me a break.

If those fundamentals weren't valid the major political story would not be about the under-performing R's.
bearister
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America is still on the brink of Trumpism fueling hate, paranoia and violence


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/10/america-trumpism-hate-paranoia-violence-bullying?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
bearister
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Has 'Trumpty Dumpty' taken a great fall from Rupert Murdoch's grace?


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/nov/10/rupert-murdoch-trump-desantis-ny-post?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Unit2Sucks
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You lay down with dogs and you're gonna get fleas. Hard to feel sorry for anyone who associated with Trump getting trashed by him now or in the future.

I'm definitely here for the schadenfreude.


Eastern Oregon Bear
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calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

tequila4kapp said:

Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

tequila4kapp said:

This election is over but for some counting and Georgia's run-off.

The underlying fundamentals were so skewed toward Rs that I am suspicious there's something more fundamental at play rather than anti-trump, abortion, etc. It has to be something like Ds on the ground get out the vote game developed during the Covid shutdown were leveraged to great effect. It's the most logical explanation to me, but we will learn in time.

In the meantime, Ds get some time to rightly gloat and Rs still have a solid path to quietly capturing the House and Senate. TBD.
The bigger picture is that this country doesn't trust Trump or the extremists controlling the GOP. According to exit polls, Democrats won independents nationwide (49-47) which is crazy in a midterm with economic challenges and Biden's approval numbers. Dobbs can only count for so much. The GOP lost with moderates 56-41. Let that sink in. Losing the middle by 15 points in a midterm with these fundamentals should be ringing alarm bells. But for gerrymandering, the GOP would be dead in the water. This was a repudiation of the modern GOP.

I don't think this is just about ground game or get out the vote. The GOP always does a great job turning out its voters but they are fundamentally selling an unpopular product. At some point the GOP will have to reckon with the fact that the GOP has consciously decided to serve only a fraction of its potential base.


I have never hidden my conservative bias and disdain for liberal fiscal policies. If the party of election deniers has lost my vote and has caused someone like me who hates the failed liberal fiscal policies with a passion and believes in strong law and order to nonetheless commit never to vote for a dishonest individual who promotes election lies, the party has to move on from Trump and populism and get back to responsible governing. Hopefully this gives them the courage to get back to focusing on promoting ideas and not on tribal wars and Trump appeasement.
Unfortunately for this country, you and t4k hold a minority view within the GOP. Trump represents the bigger view. People like movielover may be a minority conservative view on BI (now that so many Trump nuts have been banned) but it's definitely the majority view in the party. Obviously I don't see eye to eye with either wing of the GOP (although I *used* to be pretty close to your fiscal view) but I think it's a worthwhile POV to be represented. Unfortunately it requires too much 'splaining and most of the GOP doesn't really care so the party leaders doubled own on white grievance and culture wars and that led to people no longer caring about traditional GOP values. Now all that's left is culture war and white grievance and it is what it is. The GOP will be wrecked for a while.

concordtom said:





That's interesting because Dems typically win the popular vote in presidential elections (despite losing the electoral college count).
And sad/funny that the conclusion is a call to focus more on gerrymandering. That's actually a really bad idea, as gerrymandering needs to be stopped by all everywhere, not taken to further extreme.
They still aren't done counting the votes. Now a 6M vote lead isn't something I expect to evaporate but I do think it'll shrink by at least a few million votes.

I do think that this is largely a combination of both gerrymandering and the fact that more GOP senate seats were up this year than Dem seats. In a midterm, senate seats drive turnout.


If you are right, the party is done. I think there is a fairly large base that just want fighters on conservative policies but don't care for the divisiveness of Trump or election deniers. And I suspect a big portion of the former republican base left to be independent and some socially conservative democrats became Trumpian republicans. I think most Americans are moderately conservative on economic issues but I may be wrong. If we cater to those folks, I don't care if we lose the Dixiecrats.
This is a fundamental disagreement. I think most Americans are financially irresponsible and don't expect our government to be any different. Even the traditional "fiscal conservatives" in the GOP far more about cutting taxes than they do about making smart spending decisions - see how the military is always overfunded to the point of waste, and it's never enough for the GOP.

I suspect if you ask America whether they would add $1 to the federal debt in exchange for $1 in their pockets, close to 95% would say yes.
Right or wrong, I used to believe the R party was about fiscal responsibility. If it ever was it sure as hell isn't anymore. The establishment wing has demonstrated for years (decades) they are more than happy to spend wildly. There was a period of time where they at least argued their fiscal policy would grow the economy and generate additional revenue. Even if that didn't work they at least sold themselves as having a plan. (We can debate the merits of that position separately). Now there's nothing, they just spend and spend. At least Dems raise taxes on the rich to supposedly pay for their spending (again, we can argue about the wisdom of that policy or if it actually works separately, but at least D's pay lip service to something that approximates fiscal maturity).
Completely agree. I find myself caught between the social side where I am far closer to the Ds than GOPs (by a factor of 100) and fiscally where I am far closer to what I used to pretend the GOP stood for than where either party is right now. Both spend on things I don't like and both now tax me in ways I don't like (the TJCA was a disaster). I think that a lot of fiscal conservatives gave the GOP the benefit of the doubt on that side for far too long without holding the GOP accountable at all. What we have seen in my lifetime is that the GOP always raises the deficit and the D's tend to have it go down annually (granted, in part that's because the GOP typically refuses to pass any spending bills unless they are in power).

I don't know how it changes, but we are far from seeing the GOP pivot to normalcy. If Trump dies tomorrow, DeSantis takes over the party and his entire ethos is being "anti woke mob". *** is that even about? He runs his state from one Fox News soundbite to the next and seems to have no policy positions other than owning the libs and winning over the worst GOPers he can.
About DeSantis - unlike Trump, when you go beyond the social populism and anti-woke messaging, DeSantis is actually an effective leader and is intelligent and competent. You don't go from middle class to graduating with honors at Yale, graduating with honors from Harvard Law School, decorated service as a lawyer in the military, and lead Florida through number of disasters without being extremely competent and intelligent (more than everyone else here.

Much of that sounds like Obama, but I see lots of people saying Obama wasn't smart or competent.
calbear93
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Eastern Oregon Bear said:

calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

tequila4kapp said:

Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

tequila4kapp said:

This election is over but for some counting and Georgia's run-off.

The underlying fundamentals were so skewed toward Rs that I am suspicious there's something more fundamental at play rather than anti-trump, abortion, etc. It has to be something like Ds on the ground get out the vote game developed during the Covid shutdown were leveraged to great effect. It's the most logical explanation to me, but we will learn in time.

In the meantime, Ds get some time to rightly gloat and Rs still have a solid path to quietly capturing the House and Senate. TBD.
The bigger picture is that this country doesn't trust Trump or the extremists controlling the GOP. According to exit polls, Democrats won independents nationwide (49-47) which is crazy in a midterm with economic challenges and Biden's approval numbers. Dobbs can only count for so much. The GOP lost with moderates 56-41. Let that sink in. Losing the middle by 15 points in a midterm with these fundamentals should be ringing alarm bells. But for gerrymandering, the GOP would be dead in the water. This was a repudiation of the modern GOP.

I don't think this is just about ground game or get out the vote. The GOP always does a great job turning out its voters but they are fundamentally selling an unpopular product. At some point the GOP will have to reckon with the fact that the GOP has consciously decided to serve only a fraction of its potential base.


I have never hidden my conservative bias and disdain for liberal fiscal policies. If the party of election deniers has lost my vote and has caused someone like me who hates the failed liberal fiscal policies with a passion and believes in strong law and order to nonetheless commit never to vote for a dishonest individual who promotes election lies, the party has to move on from Trump and populism and get back to responsible governing. Hopefully this gives them the courage to get back to focusing on promoting ideas and not on tribal wars and Trump appeasement.
Unfortunately for this country, you and t4k hold a minority view within the GOP. Trump represents the bigger view. People like movielover may be a minority conservative view on BI (now that so many Trump nuts have been banned) but it's definitely the majority view in the party. Obviously I don't see eye to eye with either wing of the GOP (although I *used* to be pretty close to your fiscal view) but I think it's a worthwhile POV to be represented. Unfortunately it requires too much 'splaining and most of the GOP doesn't really care so the party leaders doubled own on white grievance and culture wars and that led to people no longer caring about traditional GOP values. Now all that's left is culture war and white grievance and it is what it is. The GOP will be wrecked for a while.

concordtom said:





That's interesting because Dems typically win the popular vote in presidential elections (despite losing the electoral college count).
And sad/funny that the conclusion is a call to focus more on gerrymandering. That's actually a really bad idea, as gerrymandering needs to be stopped by all everywhere, not taken to further extreme.
They still aren't done counting the votes. Now a 6M vote lead isn't something I expect to evaporate but I do think it'll shrink by at least a few million votes.

I do think that this is largely a combination of both gerrymandering and the fact that more GOP senate seats were up this year than Dem seats. In a midterm, senate seats drive turnout.


If you are right, the party is done. I think there is a fairly large base that just want fighters on conservative policies but don't care for the divisiveness of Trump or election deniers. And I suspect a big portion of the former republican base left to be independent and some socially conservative democrats became Trumpian republicans. I think most Americans are moderately conservative on economic issues but I may be wrong. If we cater to those folks, I don't care if we lose the Dixiecrats.
This is a fundamental disagreement. I think most Americans are financially irresponsible and don't expect our government to be any different. Even the traditional "fiscal conservatives" in the GOP far more about cutting taxes than they do about making smart spending decisions - see how the military is always overfunded to the point of waste, and it's never enough for the GOP.

I suspect if you ask America whether they would add $1 to the federal debt in exchange for $1 in their pockets, close to 95% would say yes.
Right or wrong, I used to believe the R party was about fiscal responsibility. If it ever was it sure as hell isn't anymore. The establishment wing has demonstrated for years (decades) they are more than happy to spend wildly. There was a period of time where they at least argued their fiscal policy would grow the economy and generate additional revenue. Even if that didn't work they at least sold themselves as having a plan. (We can debate the merits of that position separately). Now there's nothing, they just spend and spend. At least Dems raise taxes on the rich to supposedly pay for their spending (again, we can argue about the wisdom of that policy or if it actually works separately, but at least D's pay lip service to something that approximates fiscal maturity).
Completely agree. I find myself caught between the social side where I am far closer to the Ds than GOPs (by a factor of 100) and fiscally where I am far closer to what I used to pretend the GOP stood for than where either party is right now. Both spend on things I don't like and both now tax me in ways I don't like (the TJCA was a disaster). I think that a lot of fiscal conservatives gave the GOP the benefit of the doubt on that side for far too long without holding the GOP accountable at all. What we have seen in my lifetime is that the GOP always raises the deficit and the D's tend to have it go down annually (granted, in part that's because the GOP typically refuses to pass any spending bills unless they are in power).

I don't know how it changes, but we are far from seeing the GOP pivot to normalcy. If Trump dies tomorrow, DeSantis takes over the party and his entire ethos is being "anti woke mob". *** is that even about? He runs his state from one Fox News soundbite to the next and seems to have no policy positions other than owning the libs and winning over the worst GOPers he can.
About DeSantis - unlike Trump, when you go beyond the social populism and anti-woke messaging, DeSantis is actually an effective leader and is intelligent and competent. You don't go from middle class to graduating with honors at Yale, graduating with honors from Harvard Law School, decorated service as a lawyer in the military, and lead Florida through number of disasters without being extremely competent and intelligent (more than everyone else here.

Much of that sounds like Obama, but I see lots of people saying Obama wasn't smart or competent.
They are idiots. Obama was one of smartest, coolest presidents we have had since Clinton. I would love to be in a dinner party with him.
sycasey
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calbear93 said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

tequila4kapp said:

Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

tequila4kapp said:

This election is over but for some counting and Georgia's run-off.

The underlying fundamentals were so skewed toward Rs that I am suspicious there's something more fundamental at play rather than anti-trump, abortion, etc. It has to be something like Ds on the ground get out the vote game developed during the Covid shutdown were leveraged to great effect. It's the most logical explanation to me, but we will learn in time.

In the meantime, Ds get some time to rightly gloat and Rs still have a solid path to quietly capturing the House and Senate. TBD.
The bigger picture is that this country doesn't trust Trump or the extremists controlling the GOP. According to exit polls, Democrats won independents nationwide (49-47) which is crazy in a midterm with economic challenges and Biden's approval numbers. Dobbs can only count for so much. The GOP lost with moderates 56-41. Let that sink in. Losing the middle by 15 points in a midterm with these fundamentals should be ringing alarm bells. But for gerrymandering, the GOP would be dead in the water. This was a repudiation of the modern GOP.

I don't think this is just about ground game or get out the vote. The GOP always does a great job turning out its voters but they are fundamentally selling an unpopular product. At some point the GOP will have to reckon with the fact that the GOP has consciously decided to serve only a fraction of its potential base.


I have never hidden my conservative bias and disdain for liberal fiscal policies. If the party of election deniers has lost my vote and has caused someone like me who hates the failed liberal fiscal policies with a passion and believes in strong law and order to nonetheless commit never to vote for a dishonest individual who promotes election lies, the party has to move on from Trump and populism and get back to responsible governing. Hopefully this gives them the courage to get back to focusing on promoting ideas and not on tribal wars and Trump appeasement.
Unfortunately for this country, you and t4k hold a minority view within the GOP. Trump represents the bigger view. People like movielover may be a minority conservative view on BI (now that so many Trump nuts have been banned) but it's definitely the majority view in the party. Obviously I don't see eye to eye with either wing of the GOP (although I *used* to be pretty close to your fiscal view) but I think it's a worthwhile POV to be represented. Unfortunately it requires too much 'splaining and most of the GOP doesn't really care so the party leaders doubled own on white grievance and culture wars and that led to people no longer caring about traditional GOP values. Now all that's left is culture war and white grievance and it is what it is. The GOP will be wrecked for a while.

concordtom said:





That's interesting because Dems typically win the popular vote in presidential elections (despite losing the electoral college count).
And sad/funny that the conclusion is a call to focus more on gerrymandering. That's actually a really bad idea, as gerrymandering needs to be stopped by all everywhere, not taken to further extreme.
They still aren't done counting the votes. Now a 6M vote lead isn't something I expect to evaporate but I do think it'll shrink by at least a few million votes.

I do think that this is largely a combination of both gerrymandering and the fact that more GOP senate seats were up this year than Dem seats. In a midterm, senate seats drive turnout.


If you are right, the party is done. I think there is a fairly large base that just want fighters on conservative policies but don't care for the divisiveness of Trump or election deniers. And I suspect a big portion of the former republican base left to be independent and some socially conservative democrats became Trumpian republicans. I think most Americans are moderately conservative on economic issues but I may be wrong. If we cater to those folks, I don't care if we lose the Dixiecrats.
This is a fundamental disagreement. I think most Americans are financially irresponsible and don't expect our government to be any different. Even the traditional "fiscal conservatives" in the GOP far more about cutting taxes than they do about making smart spending decisions - see how the military is always overfunded to the point of waste, and it's never enough for the GOP.

I suspect if you ask America whether they would add $1 to the federal debt in exchange for $1 in their pockets, close to 95% would say yes.
Right or wrong, I used to believe the R party was about fiscal responsibility. If it ever was it sure as hell isn't anymore. The establishment wing has demonstrated for years (decades) they are more than happy to spend wildly. There was a period of time where they at least argued their fiscal policy would grow the economy and generate additional revenue. Even if that didn't work they at least sold themselves as having a plan. (We can debate the merits of that position separately). Now there's nothing, they just spend and spend. At least Dems raise taxes on the rich to supposedly pay for their spending (again, we can argue about the wisdom of that policy or if it actually works separately, but at least D's pay lip service to something that approximates fiscal maturity).
Completely agree. I find myself caught between the social side where I am far closer to the Ds than GOPs (by a factor of 100) and fiscally where I am far closer to what I used to pretend the GOP stood for than where either party is right now. Both spend on things I don't like and both now tax me in ways I don't like (the TJCA was a disaster). I think that a lot of fiscal conservatives gave the GOP the benefit of the doubt on that side for far too long without holding the GOP accountable at all. What we have seen in my lifetime is that the GOP always raises the deficit and the D's tend to have it go down annually (granted, in part that's because the GOP typically refuses to pass any spending bills unless they are in power).

I don't know how it changes, but we are far from seeing the GOP pivot to normalcy. If Trump dies tomorrow, DeSantis takes over the party and his entire ethos is being "anti woke mob". *** is that even about? He runs his state from one Fox News soundbite to the next and seems to have no policy positions other than owning the libs and winning over the worst GOPers he can.
About DeSantis - unlike Trump, when you go beyond the social populism and anti-woke messaging, DeSantis is actually an effective leader and is intelligent and competent. You don't go from middle class to graduating with honors at Yale, graduating with honors from Harvard Law School, decorated service as a lawyer in the military, and lead Florida through number of disasters without being extremely competent and intelligent (more than everyone else here.

Much of that sounds like Obama, but I see lots of people saying Obama wasn't smart or competent.
They are idiots. Obama was one of smartest, coolest presidents we have had since Clinton. I would love to be in a dinner party with him.
I mean, we've only had four Presidents since Clinton and two of them are George W. Bush and Donald Trump. Damning with faint praise?
Unit2Sucks
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calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

tequila4kapp said:

Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

tequila4kapp said:

This election is over but for some counting and Georgia's run-off.

The underlying fundamentals were so skewed toward Rs that I am suspicious there's something more fundamental at play rather than anti-trump, abortion, etc. It has to be something like Ds on the ground get out the vote game developed during the Covid shutdown were leveraged to great effect. It's the most logical explanation to me, but we will learn in time.

In the meantime, Ds get some time to rightly gloat and Rs still have a solid path to quietly capturing the House and Senate. TBD.
The bigger picture is that this country doesn't trust Trump or the extremists controlling the GOP. According to exit polls, Democrats won independents nationwide (49-47) which is crazy in a midterm with economic challenges and Biden's approval numbers. Dobbs can only count for so much. The GOP lost with moderates 56-41. Let that sink in. Losing the middle by 15 points in a midterm with these fundamentals should be ringing alarm bells. But for gerrymandering, the GOP would be dead in the water. This was a repudiation of the modern GOP.

I don't think this is just about ground game or get out the vote. The GOP always does a great job turning out its voters but they are fundamentally selling an unpopular product. At some point the GOP will have to reckon with the fact that the GOP has consciously decided to serve only a fraction of its potential base.


I have never hidden my conservative bias and disdain for liberal fiscal policies. If the party of election deniers has lost my vote and has caused someone like me who hates the failed liberal fiscal policies with a passion and believes in strong law and order to nonetheless commit never to vote for a dishonest individual who promotes election lies, the party has to move on from Trump and populism and get back to responsible governing. Hopefully this gives them the courage to get back to focusing on promoting ideas and not on tribal wars and Trump appeasement.
Unfortunately for this country, you and t4k hold a minority view within the GOP. Trump represents the bigger view. People like movielover may be a minority conservative view on BI (now that so many Trump nuts have been banned) but it's definitely the majority view in the party. Obviously I don't see eye to eye with either wing of the GOP (although I *used* to be pretty close to your fiscal view) but I think it's a worthwhile POV to be represented. Unfortunately it requires too much 'splaining and most of the GOP doesn't really care so the party leaders doubled own on white grievance and culture wars and that led to people no longer caring about traditional GOP values. Now all that's left is culture war and white grievance and it is what it is. The GOP will be wrecked for a while.

concordtom said:





That's interesting because Dems typically win the popular vote in presidential elections (despite losing the electoral college count).
And sad/funny that the conclusion is a call to focus more on gerrymandering. That's actually a really bad idea, as gerrymandering needs to be stopped by all everywhere, not taken to further extreme.
They still aren't done counting the votes. Now a 6M vote lead isn't something I expect to evaporate but I do think it'll shrink by at least a few million votes.

I do think that this is largely a combination of both gerrymandering and the fact that more GOP senate seats were up this year than Dem seats. In a midterm, senate seats drive turnout.


If you are right, the party is done. I think there is a fairly large base that just want fighters on conservative policies but don't care for the divisiveness of Trump or election deniers. And I suspect a big portion of the former republican base left to be independent and some socially conservative democrats became Trumpian republicans. I think most Americans are moderately conservative on economic issues but I may be wrong. If we cater to those folks, I don't care if we lose the Dixiecrats.
This is a fundamental disagreement. I think most Americans are financially irresponsible and don't expect our government to be any different. Even the traditional "fiscal conservatives" in the GOP far more about cutting taxes than they do about making smart spending decisions - see how the military is always overfunded to the point of waste, and it's never enough for the GOP.

I suspect if you ask America whether they would add $1 to the federal debt in exchange for $1 in their pockets, close to 95% would say yes.
Right or wrong, I used to believe the R party was about fiscal responsibility. If it ever was it sure as hell isn't anymore. The establishment wing has demonstrated for years (decades) they are more than happy to spend wildly. There was a period of time where they at least argued their fiscal policy would grow the economy and generate additional revenue. Even if that didn't work they at least sold themselves as having a plan. (We can debate the merits of that position separately). Now there's nothing, they just spend and spend. At least Dems raise taxes on the rich to supposedly pay for their spending (again, we can argue about the wisdom of that policy or if it actually works separately, but at least D's pay lip service to something that approximates fiscal maturity).
Completely agree. I find myself caught between the social side where I am far closer to the Ds than GOPs (by a factor of 100) and fiscally where I am far closer to what I used to pretend the GOP stood for than where either party is right now. Both spend on things I don't like and both now tax me in ways I don't like (the TJCA was a disaster). I think that a lot of fiscal conservatives gave the GOP the benefit of the doubt on that side for far too long without holding the GOP accountable at all. What we have seen in my lifetime is that the GOP always raises the deficit and the D's tend to have it go down annually (granted, in part that's because the GOP typically refuses to pass any spending bills unless they are in power).

I don't know how it changes, but we are far from seeing the GOP pivot to normalcy. If Trump dies tomorrow, DeSantis takes over the party and his entire ethos is being "anti woke mob". *** is that even about? He runs his state from one Fox News soundbite to the next and seems to have no policy positions other than owning the libs and winning over the worst GOPers he can.
About DeSantis - unlike Trump, when you go beyond the social populism and anti-woke messaging, DeSantis is actually an effective leader and is intelligent and competent. You don't go from middle class to graduating with honors at Yale, graduating with honors from Harvard Law School, decorated service as a lawyer in the military, and lead Florida through number of disasters without being extremely competent and intelligent (more than everyone else here). People I know living in Florida who are very moderate and hate Trump love DeSantis. They voted for Biden, would never vote for Trump but would vote for DeSantis in a heartbeat. I would vote for him over Biden.
You'll lilkely never get the chance to vote for DeSantis. I've never claimed he isn't smart or "competent" but I don't think he's even attempting to govern Florida in the best interest of his constituents. He's entirely focused on his presidential run and has been from day one. Trump is incompetent and bad. Newt Gingrich was competent and bad.

This is an actual quote from his victory speech this week:
Quote:

We have respected our taxpayers, and we reject woke ideology. We fight the woke in the legislature. We fight the woke in the schools. We fight the woke in the corporations. We will never, ever surrender to the woke mob. Florida is where woke goes to die.

This is complete nonsense and should not be a defining characteristic for a politician. DeSantis disenfranchised voters in Florida (for which I hope the state is forced to pay dearly) and has gerrymandered the state beyond belief. He's shown himself to be petty and spiteful. I'm sad that you would consider him a great candidate.

In weird news, I recently found out that someone I know fairly well went to HS with DeSantis and lives in Florida. So if in some alternative universe he does make it to the white house, it will extend the string of POTUSes that I'm 1 degree of separation from (I have a friend who knows Obama from when he was a professor, and another who knows Trump).
calbear93
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sycasey said:

calbear93 said:

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

tequila4kapp said:

Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

tequila4kapp said:

This election is over but for some counting and Georgia's run-off.

The underlying fundamentals were so skewed toward Rs that I am suspicious there's something more fundamental at play rather than anti-trump, abortion, etc. It has to be something like Ds on the ground get out the vote game developed during the Covid shutdown were leveraged to great effect. It's the most logical explanation to me, but we will learn in time.

In the meantime, Ds get some time to rightly gloat and Rs still have a solid path to quietly capturing the House and Senate. TBD.
The bigger picture is that this country doesn't trust Trump or the extremists controlling the GOP. According to exit polls, Democrats won independents nationwide (49-47) which is crazy in a midterm with economic challenges and Biden's approval numbers. Dobbs can only count for so much. The GOP lost with moderates 56-41. Let that sink in. Losing the middle by 15 points in a midterm with these fundamentals should be ringing alarm bells. But for gerrymandering, the GOP would be dead in the water. This was a repudiation of the modern GOP.

I don't think this is just about ground game or get out the vote. The GOP always does a great job turning out its voters but they are fundamentally selling an unpopular product. At some point the GOP will have to reckon with the fact that the GOP has consciously decided to serve only a fraction of its potential base.


I have never hidden my conservative bias and disdain for liberal fiscal policies. If the party of election deniers has lost my vote and has caused someone like me who hates the failed liberal fiscal policies with a passion and believes in strong law and order to nonetheless commit never to vote for a dishonest individual who promotes election lies, the party has to move on from Trump and populism and get back to responsible governing. Hopefully this gives them the courage to get back to focusing on promoting ideas and not on tribal wars and Trump appeasement.
Unfortunately for this country, you and t4k hold a minority view within the GOP. Trump represents the bigger view. People like movielover may be a minority conservative view on BI (now that so many Trump nuts have been banned) but it's definitely the majority view in the party. Obviously I don't see eye to eye with either wing of the GOP (although I *used* to be pretty close to your fiscal view) but I think it's a worthwhile POV to be represented. Unfortunately it requires too much 'splaining and most of the GOP doesn't really care so the party leaders doubled own on white grievance and culture wars and that led to people no longer caring about traditional GOP values. Now all that's left is culture war and white grievance and it is what it is. The GOP will be wrecked for a while.

concordtom said:





That's interesting because Dems typically win the popular vote in presidential elections (despite losing the electoral college count).
And sad/funny that the conclusion is a call to focus more on gerrymandering. That's actually a really bad idea, as gerrymandering needs to be stopped by all everywhere, not taken to further extreme.
They still aren't done counting the votes. Now a 6M vote lead isn't something I expect to evaporate but I do think it'll shrink by at least a few million votes.

I do think that this is largely a combination of both gerrymandering and the fact that more GOP senate seats were up this year than Dem seats. In a midterm, senate seats drive turnout.


If you are right, the party is done. I think there is a fairly large base that just want fighters on conservative policies but don't care for the divisiveness of Trump or election deniers. And I suspect a big portion of the former republican base left to be independent and some socially conservative democrats became Trumpian republicans. I think most Americans are moderately conservative on economic issues but I may be wrong. If we cater to those folks, I don't care if we lose the Dixiecrats.
This is a fundamental disagreement. I think most Americans are financially irresponsible and don't expect our government to be any different. Even the traditional "fiscal conservatives" in the GOP far more about cutting taxes than they do about making smart spending decisions - see how the military is always overfunded to the point of waste, and it's never enough for the GOP.

I suspect if you ask America whether they would add $1 to the federal debt in exchange for $1 in their pockets, close to 95% would say yes.
Right or wrong, I used to believe the R party was about fiscal responsibility. If it ever was it sure as hell isn't anymore. The establishment wing has demonstrated for years (decades) they are more than happy to spend wildly. There was a period of time where they at least argued their fiscal policy would grow the economy and generate additional revenue. Even if that didn't work they at least sold themselves as having a plan. (We can debate the merits of that position separately). Now there's nothing, they just spend and spend. At least Dems raise taxes on the rich to supposedly pay for their spending (again, we can argue about the wisdom of that policy or if it actually works separately, but at least D's pay lip service to something that approximates fiscal maturity).
Completely agree. I find myself caught between the social side where I am far closer to the Ds than GOPs (by a factor of 100) and fiscally where I am far closer to what I used to pretend the GOP stood for than where either party is right now. Both spend on things I don't like and both now tax me in ways I don't like (the TJCA was a disaster). I think that a lot of fiscal conservatives gave the GOP the benefit of the doubt on that side for far too long without holding the GOP accountable at all. What we have seen in my lifetime is that the GOP always raises the deficit and the D's tend to have it go down annually (granted, in part that's because the GOP typically refuses to pass any spending bills unless they are in power).

I don't know how it changes, but we are far from seeing the GOP pivot to normalcy. If Trump dies tomorrow, DeSantis takes over the party and his entire ethos is being "anti woke mob". *** is that even about? He runs his state from one Fox News soundbite to the next and seems to have no policy positions other than owning the libs and winning over the worst GOPers he can.
About DeSantis - unlike Trump, when you go beyond the social populism and anti-woke messaging, DeSantis is actually an effective leader and is intelligent and competent. You don't go from middle class to graduating with honors at Yale, graduating with honors from Harvard Law School, decorated service as a lawyer in the military, and lead Florida through number of disasters without being extremely competent and intelligent (more than everyone else here.

Much of that sounds like Obama, but I see lots of people saying Obama wasn't smart or competent.
They are idiots. Obama was one of smartest, coolest presidents we have had since Clinton. I would love to be in a dinner party with him.
I mean, we've only had four Presidents since Clinton and two of them are George W. Bush and Donald Trump. Damning with faint praise?
True. But Bill Clinton and Obama were sharp, intelligent and cool presidents. DeSantis is also sharp and intelligent. Instead we are going to end up with mental midgets like Biden and Trump who can barely talk and who struggle drinking water and completing a thought. Pathetic.
sycasey
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My completely subjective take on DeSantis is that I wouldn't want to support him because he just seems like an a**hole. Like, every time I watch a clip of the guy talking he sounds vindictive and mean. I don't understand the appeal at all.
calbear93
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Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

tequila4kapp said:

Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

calbear93 said:

Unit2Sucks said:

tequila4kapp said:

This election is over but for some counting and Georgia's run-off.

The underlying fundamentals were so skewed toward Rs that I am suspicious there's something more fundamental at play rather than anti-trump, abortion, etc. It has to be something like Ds on the ground get out the vote game developed during the Covid shutdown were leveraged to great effect. It's the most logical explanation to me, but we will learn in time.

In the meantime, Ds get some time to rightly gloat and Rs still have a solid path to quietly capturing the House and Senate. TBD.
The bigger picture is that this country doesn't trust Trump or the extremists controlling the GOP. According to exit polls, Democrats won independents nationwide (49-47) which is crazy in a midterm with economic challenges and Biden's approval numbers. Dobbs can only count for so much. The GOP lost with moderates 56-41. Let that sink in. Losing the middle by 15 points in a midterm with these fundamentals should be ringing alarm bells. But for gerrymandering, the GOP would be dead in the water. This was a repudiation of the modern GOP.

I don't think this is just about ground game or get out the vote. The GOP always does a great job turning out its voters but they are fundamentally selling an unpopular product. At some point the GOP will have to reckon with the fact that the GOP has consciously decided to serve only a fraction of its potential base.


I have never hidden my conservative bias and disdain for liberal fiscal policies. If the party of election deniers has lost my vote and has caused someone like me who hates the failed liberal fiscal policies with a passion and believes in strong law and order to nonetheless commit never to vote for a dishonest individual who promotes election lies, the party has to move on from Trump and populism and get back to responsible governing. Hopefully this gives them the courage to get back to focusing on promoting ideas and not on tribal wars and Trump appeasement.
Unfortunately for this country, you and t4k hold a minority view within the GOP. Trump represents the bigger view. People like movielover may be a minority conservative view on BI (now that so many Trump nuts have been banned) but it's definitely the majority view in the party. Obviously I don't see eye to eye with either wing of the GOP (although I *used* to be pretty close to your fiscal view) but I think it's a worthwhile POV to be represented. Unfortunately it requires too much 'splaining and most of the GOP doesn't really care so the party leaders doubled own on white grievance and culture wars and that led to people no longer caring about traditional GOP values. Now all that's left is culture war and white grievance and it is what it is. The GOP will be wrecked for a while.

concordtom said:





That's interesting because Dems typically win the popular vote in presidential elections (despite losing the electoral college count).
And sad/funny that the conclusion is a call to focus more on gerrymandering. That's actually a really bad idea, as gerrymandering needs to be stopped by all everywhere, not taken to further extreme.
They still aren't done counting the votes. Now a 6M vote lead isn't something I expect to evaporate but I do think it'll shrink by at least a few million votes.

I do think that this is largely a combination of both gerrymandering and the fact that more GOP senate seats were up this year than Dem seats. In a midterm, senate seats drive turnout.


If you are right, the party is done. I think there is a fairly large base that just want fighters on conservative policies but don't care for the divisiveness of Trump or election deniers. And I suspect a big portion of the former republican base left to be independent and some socially conservative democrats became Trumpian republicans. I think most Americans are moderately conservative on economic issues but I may be wrong. If we cater to those folks, I don't care if we lose the Dixiecrats.
This is a fundamental disagreement. I think most Americans are financially irresponsible and don't expect our government to be any different. Even the traditional "fiscal conservatives" in the GOP far more about cutting taxes than they do about making smart spending decisions - see how the military is always overfunded to the point of waste, and it's never enough for the GOP.

I suspect if you ask America whether they would add $1 to the federal debt in exchange for $1 in their pockets, close to 95% would say yes.
Right or wrong, I used to believe the R party was about fiscal responsibility. If it ever was it sure as hell isn't anymore. The establishment wing has demonstrated for years (decades) they are more than happy to spend wildly. There was a period of time where they at least argued their fiscal policy would grow the economy and generate additional revenue. Even if that didn't work they at least sold themselves as having a plan. (We can debate the merits of that position separately). Now there's nothing, they just spend and spend. At least Dems raise taxes on the rich to supposedly pay for their spending (again, we can argue about the wisdom of that policy or if it actually works separately, but at least D's pay lip service to something that approximates fiscal maturity).
Completely agree. I find myself caught between the social side where I am far closer to the Ds than GOPs (by a factor of 100) and fiscally where I am far closer to what I used to pretend the GOP stood for than where either party is right now. Both spend on things I don't like and both now tax me in ways I don't like (the TJCA was a disaster). I think that a lot of fiscal conservatives gave the GOP the benefit of the doubt on that side for far too long without holding the GOP accountable at all. What we have seen in my lifetime is that the GOP always raises the deficit and the D's tend to have it go down annually (granted, in part that's because the GOP typically refuses to pass any spending bills unless they are in power).

I don't know how it changes, but we are far from seeing the GOP pivot to normalcy. If Trump dies tomorrow, DeSantis takes over the party and his entire ethos is being "anti woke mob". *** is that even about? He runs his state from one Fox News soundbite to the next and seems to have no policy positions other than owning the libs and winning over the worst GOPers he can.
About DeSantis - unlike Trump, when you go beyond the social populism and anti-woke messaging, DeSantis is actually an effective leader and is intelligent and competent. You don't go from middle class to graduating with honors at Yale, graduating with honors from Harvard Law School, decorated service as a lawyer in the military, and lead Florida through number of disasters without being extremely competent and intelligent (more than everyone else here). People I know living in Florida who are very moderate and hate Trump love DeSantis. They voted for Biden, would never vote for Trump but would vote for DeSantis in a heartbeat. I would vote for him over Biden.
You'll lilkely never get the chance to vote for DeSantis. I've never claimed he isn't smart or "competent" but I don't think he's even attempting to govern Florida in the best interest of his constituents. He's entirely focused on his presidential run and has been from day one. Trump is incompetent and bad. Newt Gingrich was competent and bad.

This is an actual quote from his victory speech this week:
Quote:

We have respected our taxpayers, and we reject woke ideology. We fight the woke in the legislature. We fight the woke in the schools. We fight the woke in the corporations. We will never, ever surrender to the woke mob. Florida is where woke goes to die.

This is complete nonsense and should not be a defining characteristic for a politician. DeSantis disenfranchised voters in Florida (for which I hope the state is forced to pay dearly) and has gerrymandered the state beyond belief. He's shown himself to be petty and spiteful. I'm sad that you would consider him a great candidate.

In weird news, I recently found out that someone I know fairly well went to HS with DeSantis and lives in Florida. So if in some alternative universe he does make it to the white house, it will extend the string of POTUSes that I'm 1 degree of separation from (I have a friend who knows Obama from when he was a professor, and another who knows Trump).
Most people like me hate the over-reach of the woke advocates, the disingenuous posters on twitter who are out there to signal their virtues, monitor my behavior, force special interest down my throat. There is a reason why DeSantis' message, when coupled with actual governing competence, resonates. There is a reason why his push to reject special medical benefits for congress when he was a representative and wanted the leaders who pushed for reduced benefits to also live with those reductions resonated. There is a reason why his push to stop salaries and benefits for legislators when they pushed for government shut down resonated.

DeSantis, I hope, will run for president and the Republicans can turn from Trump. I also hope that the Democrats can turn from the progressives and woke populism and come to the table and negotiate what fiscal policies best serve the country. What are the best investments (whether infrastructure, education), where is the waste, etc. All you have to do is look at what Gensler is doing with the SEC and the harm he is creating to understand the toxic waste that is the progressive side just like the toxic waste that is the MAGA side.
dimitrig
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concordtom said:

tequila4kapp said:

movielover said:


I like MH a lot but she misses the boat here. The correct question is how do Rs convince unmarried women their positions are better? Or how do they find solutions which meet UW needs? Just like with Hispanics X number of years ago…you don't cede a demographic to your opponent you do what I suggest above.

Jesse Waters (Foxnews - The Five) was pushing this stat about married women, and told his male audience to help the R party simply by stepping up to the plate, and putting a ring on it. I laughed, and then changed the channel.


Married = older and probably not needing to worry about abortions

Single = younger and definitely a concern

Also, it is mostly religious/conservative people who are getting married these days. I have 5 nieces under age 40 and none of them are married or have ever been married. That's pretty common these days among young educated women.

Republicans want to keep women barefoot and pregnant by marrying them off at 16. That's not a surprise.

dajo9
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tequila4kapp said:

blungld said:

tequila4kapp said:

..."the underlying fundamentals were so skewed toward Rs..."
Either that or your framing and understanding of those underlying fundamentals is so biased and within a right-wing media bubble that you literally can not imagine that other people see the country and those fundamentals differently.

Occam's Razor, what is more likely, a MINORITY aging demographic that also comprises conspiracy theorists and non-college educated aggressive white males all of whom feel their status in society under threat and tend to tribalism, authoritarianism, hierarchy, regression, and cultist loyalty seeing the fundamentals as in their favor and so the results seem out of step somehow, or the MAJORITY of reasonable people could plainly see the threat of the first group and stand on the plurality on almost all social wedge issues and being the larger group with better more well-reasoned ideology and policy and politicians they carried the day because they are the majority and those are the actual fundamentals?


Is CNN now a right wing entity controlled by a cabal of secret old white guys?



Yes
sycasey
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DiabloWags said:

sycasey said:



And since Wisconsin has no popular referendum process, the people there are stuck. No way to fix it unless the courts step in.

The Courts have already stepped in:

In 2021, Mr. Evers led an initiative to have a nonpartisan commission create new maps of state legislative districts. The effort failed after the state Supreme Court in April picked a map similar to the 2011 version, which had helped Republicans gain majorities in the state Senate and the state Assembly.

Mr. Evers has made the map a key plank of his re-election campaign. The issue got a surge of media attention after social-media posts of audio from a recent Michels campaign event in which the candidate said, "Republicans will never lose another election in Wisconsin after I'm elected governor."
Mr. Evers on Friday released a campaign ad that began with a narrator saying: "Did you know Tim Michels pledged to rig future elections?"

Mr. Michels has repeatedly declined to comment on the remarks and the issue of redistricting. In the past, he pledged to get rid of the bipartisan Wisconsin Elections Commission, which administers and enforces voting rules in the state

.In Tight Wisconsin Governor's Race, Gerrymandering Takes Center Stage - WSJ

But the redistricting issue is uniquely framed in Wisconsin and has played an integral role in the campaign in a state that has been described by John Johnson, a researcher at Marquette University Law School, as "not one moderate state," but "one very conservative state overlapping another very liberal one."

Redistricting has been a concern since the state's maps were considerably redrawn in 2011 when then-Gov. Scott Walker, a Republican, was in office. Those maps, which Democrats at the time contended favored the GOP, were litigated in state and federal courts and eventually at the U.S. Supreme Court, which declined to rule on the constitutionality of the maps and sent it back to a district court.

The 2011 maps stayed in place, and Mr. Evers made redistricting an issue in his 2018 campaign for governor. He attempted to put the nonpartisan People's Maps Commission in charge of redistricting to take the process out of the hands of the Wisconsin Legislature.

"All the statewide officials elected are Democrats," which shows Democrats fare well in elections, Mr. Evers said in late October. But about two-thirds of the members of the state Legislature are Republicanwhich he described as "clearly gerrymandering."
I mean, this all sounds like they took it to the courts and the courts did NOT step in. They're still using the same maps from 2011.
 
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