dimitrig said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

#2 In 2011, just 35% of white liberals thought racism in the United States was “a big problem,” according to national polling.

By 2015, this figure had ballooned to 61% and further still to 77% in 2017. pic.twitter.com/qTBCQeBU1D

— KanekoaTheGreat (@KanekoaTheGreat) May 6, 2023

It has got to be the media that's largely to blame for fueling and fanning the flames of racial discord. The universities don't help either.

---

Yeah, it couldn't have been due to some purported increase in violent protests, white supremacy groups, strident political speech and politically motivated actions to restrict the rights of "those" people.

---

Help me understand this.

Are you suggesting that the climate is more racist now than in 1995? Are you suggesting that people are facing more racism now than in 1995?

If so, and if it were partly due to those things you mentioned, what is flaming such activities? Let's not go to the knee-jerk reaction of "Trump" and "MAGA" since those are symptoms and not the causes.

Is it possible, even theoretically, that race-based remedies and identity politics are also responsible for the racial divide? Is the solution part of the problem? If we are constantly identifying by race as a solution with mandated results, people will identify and create tribes based on race, would they not? No one voluntarily gives up their privilege. I would love for anyone here to identify how they have given up their privilege by giving up their job and their home that they didn't deserve because of the white privilege so that a more worthy person of color can rightfully have their job and send their kids to safer schools. No, no one does that. Instead, they alleviate their guilt by trying to say they are aligned without any real sacrifice so that they can be viewed as one of the good privileged folks.

We saw this with emasculation of men about a decade ago where some men were feigning feminism and almost self-hate to be seen as allies of the feminists. That led to a generation of emasculated men when women will always want strong, compassionate, respectful men and not sycophants. There is a danger of having a group of sycophants on racial issues who don't know how to have their own opinions with compassion instead of resorting to automatic apology and surrender, with opposite extremes being created in response. Again, real guilt will lead to real sacrifice like Alexis Ohanian demonstrated. Instead, most of the apology is in the form of empty words that people see through clearly, like Beto who turned himself from someone who can take down Cruz to the epitome of self-hate without real belief that would have manifested in real sacrifice.

As I stated, MAGA is not the problem. It is a symptom. When we have conclusions as arguments from both sides and those who don't agree put into a corner as insensitive or racists or lacking bandwidth, it will not make the disagreement go away. It will fester until a demagogue like Trump comes along and makes it OK to voice the discontent even more violently due to the prior shaming.

Open debate and potentially hurt feelings, and not name calling and shaming, are the beginning of the answer.

Anyone who has ever worked in negotiation and persuasion knows that the best way to get people over to your side of argument is find common grounds, find areas of agreement, listen and discuss. But we don't. We don't because our sense of self is not based on what we have done for the world but what we say we believe and how much we don't like the other side.

---

More racist? Yes, at least more openly and overtly.

I'm not sure we have much common ground if you see men supporting feminism and equal rights for women as men having self-hate.

---

I guess I was asking what you think has caused the climate to be more racist in your view despite all of the mandated social engineering supposedly designed to mitigate and alleviate racism in our society.

I absolute do not support feminism as expressed in the form of male hate as opposed to just equal rights for the sexes while recognizing the difference in the sexes. I believe the sexes are different, and I have taught my boys to be strong, respectful men who lead and protect the women in their lives. But if you have not seen the surrender from males claiming to be feminists in the prior decade with men in themselves and masculinity argued as inferior or toxic as opposed to just dishonorable behavior of some men, you are not being genuine. Chivalry is a good thing. I still train in mixed martial arts because I feel the need to be the protector while honoring and respecting my wife and daughters in all things. In my family, while my wife and I discuss and consult, if there is a disagreement (which is rare since I put her interest before mine), we both understand that one person has to make the final decision, and it will be me. I don't care what anyone else says. That has worked well in my family.

---

My opinion is that there are a lot of people who are tolerant as long as it doesn't threaten them in some way. They know that one gay guy at the office and make fun of his flamboyant clothes. They have that one black friend. Their gardener is Mexican and their doctor is Jewish. A Sikh runs the gas station. Their accountant is Korean. Maybe their boss is even a woman. Hey, America is about diversity, right? It bothers them sometimes but it's no big deal.

However, when they start to feel like they are losing power then their mere prejudice becomes bigotry. As I said earlier, I think Obama becoming President and appointing a lot of black people to positions of power changed the dynamic.

Combine that with people losing their jobs to immigrants (legal or otherwise) and women and minorities such as Asians being better educated and less willing to take **** as a result and uneducated white men saw that their role in the future of America is diminishing. Rather than go to school like their female counterparts they retreated to the havens of uneducated white males like the trades and the police force which is where they are still concentrated.

They think if they can send all the immigrants back, prevent people from obtaining an education, and control women they can level the playing field.

On 1995 they weren't a minority, but now they are and it will just get worse over time. The white neighborhood will tolerate a minority family living there but when it becomes 50% minorities they want to leave or else force the minorities out.

---

Interesting perspective.

A few thoughts and questions.

So, have the uneducated white men lost "power" and, therefore, are acting out? All this talk of white privilege is no longer relevant to them since they are now in the minority and have lost the power they once enjoyed?

All the uneducated white women, in response, went to college? So are women superior to men?

Educated white men like yourself (if you are white) are immune from feeling the same threat and therefore did not fall victim to the hateful response? Or are the folks here just a superior model and have no need for further sacrifice or have privilege they should surrender willingly to the rightful owners?

We seem to talk about others being the problem and being the ones who need to change. How about you and others who feel as you do? Is feeling enough or do you actually have to surrender what you believe were ill gotten? Just wondering the degree of conviction. Obviously, if you found out your kids stole your neighbor's bike, you would return it. How about what you obtained from the social construct that gave you your position in life?

Thanks for your thoughtful responses. All interesting takes even if I disagree.

---

Older white men still have most of the power in this country, but it is less than it used to be and society is actively trying to take it away from them. They view this as a bad thing instead of a positive thing because they are selfish. White privilege still exists but even the fact that we talk about it irritates them because they refuse to believe it.

I don't know if women are superior to men, but the stats say that in 1995 26% of men had a college degree and 20% of women did. Now men are up to 36% but women have doubled to 40%. That means a lot more competition in the workplace and in general. A lot of women might have a problem with you being the one to "make the final decision" in your family. Would that bother you?

I think educated people are less fearful, more tolerant, and more compassionate. Exposure to different beliefs and cultures in college is key but so is recognizing that in a true meritocracy the person who succeeds may not look like me or hold my same beliefs. White male Christians are taught that other races and religions are inferior as are women. In college it becomes evident that is not always true.

As for what I can do, it is not clear that surrendering what I have is the best course of action. I'm not wealthy and powerful. What I can do is work to change society and lift people up. As a white male I acknowledge I might have a bias in hiring decisions or other areas where I can impact people's lives financially and try to overcome that bias.

I try to treat people with respect and kindness. I try to set a good example for my own community and also for other communities by giving people the benefit of the doubt. That young black male at the bus stop is probably waiting for a bus and not waiting to rob me as I walk by so smile and say hello instead of move to the other side of the street like some people might. What I see is that the community is better and stronger if we are all more trusting and less fearful of each other. That happens when we make overt attempts to integrate communities by providing low income housing in wealthy areas for example.

Politically, I support candidates and policies that are inclusive. Anyone who demonizes disadvantaged minorities is either ignorant or pushing an agenda of hatred to further their own goals.

Interestingly, I do not support reparations. I think it is folly to try to ascertain who got screwed the most. We've all been screwed unless we are descendants of nobility. What we should do it make sure that stops now.

That said, I think the redistribution of wealth is not a bad idea to some extent. I think taxation is the best way to accomplish that. Even great fortunes can dwindle in just a few generations with the right tax policies in place. I am willing to pay more than my share of taxes to make sure that happens as long as the people with real wealth contribute along with me.

---

America paid

REPARATIONS

$1.6B Japanese

$32M MI Ottawas

$31M WI Chippewas

$12.3M FL Seminoles

$105M SD Sioux

$81M OR Klamaths

$1B/44 M Acres Alaska Natives

Slavers were paid Reparations !!!!

AID

$146B Israel

$60B Ukraine

The debt being paid is the one of the primary mechanisms to atone. It's the key America's survival. The atrocities are at the center of the problems
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRKLskt9/

going4roses said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

#2 In 2011, just 35% of white liberals thought racism in the United States was “a big problem,” according to national polling.

By 2015, this figure had ballooned to 61% and further still to 77% in 2017. pic.twitter.com/qTBCQeBU1D

— KanekoaTheGreat (@KanekoaTheGreat) May 6, 2023

It has got to be the media that's largely to blame for fueling and fanning the flames of racial discord. The universities don't help either.

---

Yeah, it couldn't have been due to some purported increase in violent protests, white supremacy groups, strident political speech and politically motivated actions to restrict the rights of "those" people.

---

Help me understand this.

Are you suggesting that the climate is more racist now than in 1995? Are you suggesting that people are facing more racism now than in 1995?

If so, and if it were partly due to those things you mentioned, what is flaming such activities? Let's not go to the knee-jerk reaction of "Trump" and "MAGA" since those are symptoms and not the causes.

Is it possible, even theoretically, that race-based remedies and identity politics are also responsible for the racial divide? Is the solution part of the problem? If we are constantly identifying by race as a solution with mandated results, people will identify and create tribes based on race, would they not? No one voluntarily gives up their privilege. I would love for anyone here to identify how they have given up their privilege by giving up their job and their home that they didn't deserve because of the white privilege so that a more worthy person of color can rightfully have their job and send their kids to safer schools. No, no one does that. Instead, they alleviate their guilt by trying to say they are aligned without any real sacrifice so that they can be viewed as one of the good privileged folks.

We saw this with emasculation of men about a decade ago where some men were feigning feminism and almost self-hate to be seen as allies of the feminists. That led to a generation of emasculated men when women will always want strong, compassionate, respectful men and not sycophants. There is a danger of having a group of sycophants on racial issues who don't know how to have their own opinions with compassion instead of resorting to automatic apology and surrender, with opposite extremes being created in response. Again, real guilt will lead to real sacrifice like Alexis Ohanian demonstrated. Instead, most of the apology is in the form of empty words that people see through clearly, like Beto who turned himself from someone who can take down Cruz to the epitome of self-hate without real belief that would have manifested in real sacrifice.

As I stated, MAGA is not the problem. It is a symptom. When we have conclusions as arguments from both sides and those who don't agree put into a corner as insensitive or racists or lacking bandwidth, it will not make the disagreement go away. It will fester until a demagogue like Trump comes along and makes it OK to voice the discontent even more violently due to the prior shaming.

Open debate and potentially hurt feelings, and not name calling and shaming, are the beginning of the answer.

Anyone who has ever worked in negotiation and persuasion knows that the best way to get people over to your side of argument is find common grounds, find areas of agreement, listen and discuss. But we don't. We don't because our sense of self is not based on what we have done for the world but what we say we believe and how much we don't like the other side.

---

More racist? Yes, at least more openly and overtly.

I'm not sure we have much common ground if you see men supporting feminism and equal rights for women as men having self-hate.

---

I guess I was asking what you think has caused the climate to be more racist in your view despite all of the mandated social engineering supposedly designed to mitigate and alleviate racism in our society.

I absolute do not support feminism as expressed in the form of male hate as opposed to just equal rights for the sexes while recognizing the difference in the sexes. I believe the sexes are different, and I have taught my boys to be strong, respectful men who lead and protect the women in their lives. But if you have not seen the surrender from males claiming to be feminists in the prior decade with men in themselves and masculinity argued as inferior or toxic as opposed to just dishonorable behavior of some men, you are not being genuine. Chivalry is a good thing. I still train in mixed martial arts because I feel the need to be the protector while honoring and respecting my wife and daughters in all things. In my family, while my wife and I discuss and consult, if there is a disagreement (which is rare since I put her interest before mine), we both understand that one person has to make the final decision, and it will be me. I don't care what anyone else says. That has worked well in my family.

---

My opinion is that there are a lot of people who are tolerant as long as it doesn't threaten them in some way. They know that one gay guy at the office and make fun of his flamboyant clothes. They have that one black friend. Their gardener is Mexican and their doctor is Jewish. A Sikh runs the gas station. Their accountant is Korean. Maybe their boss is even a woman. Hey, America is about diversity, right? It bothers them sometimes but it's no big deal.

However, when they start to feel like they are losing power then their mere prejudice becomes bigotry. As I said earlier, I think Obama becoming President and appointing a lot of black people to positions of power changed the dynamic.

Combine that with people losing their jobs to immigrants (legal or otherwise) and women and minorities such as Asians being better educated and less willing to take **** as a result and uneducated white men saw that their role in the future of America is diminishing. Rather than go to school like their female counterparts they retreated to the havens of uneducated white males like the trades and the police force which is where they are still concentrated.

They think if they can send all the immigrants back, prevent people from obtaining an education, and control women they can level the playing field.

On 1995 they weren't a minority, but now they are and it will just get worse over time. The white neighborhood will tolerate a minority family living there but when it becomes 50% minorities they want to leave or else force the minorities out.

---

Interesting perspective.

A few thoughts and questions.

So, have the uneducated white men lost "power" and, therefore, are acting out? All this talk of white privilege is no longer relevant to them since they are now in the minority and have lost the power they once enjoyed?

All the uneducated white women, in response, went to college? So are women superior to men?

Educated white men like yourself (if you are white) are immune from feeling the same threat and therefore did not fall victim to the hateful response? Or are the folks here just a superior model and have no need for further sacrifice or have privilege they should surrender willingly to the rightful owners?

We seem to talk about others being the problem and being the ones who need to change. How about you and others who feel as you do? Is feeling enough or do you actually have to surrender what you believe were ill gotten? Just wondering the degree of conviction. Obviously, if you found out your kids stole your neighbor's bike, you would return it. How about what you obtained from the social construct that gave you your position in life?

Thanks for your thoughtful responses. All interesting takes even if I disagree.

---

Older white men still have most of the power in this country, but it is less than it used to be and society is actively trying to take it away from them. They view this as a bad thing instead of a positive thing because they are selfish. White privilege still exists but even the fact that we talk about it irritates them because they refuse to believe it.

I don't know if women are superior to men, but the stats say that in 1995 26% of men had a college degree and 20% of women did. Now men are up to 36% but women have doubled to 40%. That means a lot more competition in the workplace and in general. A lot of women might have a problem with you being the one to "make the final decision" in your family. Would that bother you?

I think educated people are less fearful, more tolerant, and more compassionate. Exposure to different beliefs and cultures in college is key but so is recognizing that in a true meritocracy the person who succeeds may not look like me or hold my same beliefs. White male Christians are taught that other races and religions are inferior as are women. In college it becomes evident that is not always true.

As for what I can do, it is not clear that surrendering what I have is the best course of action. I'm not wealthy and powerful. What I can do is work to change society and lift people up. As a white male I acknowledge I might have a bias in hiring decisions or other areas where I can impact people's lives financially and try to overcome that bias.

I try to treat people with respect and kindness. I try to set a good example for my own community and also for other communities by giving people the benefit of the doubt. That young black male at the bus stop is probably waiting for a bus and not waiting to rob me as I walk by so smile and say hello instead of move to the other side of the street like some people might. What I see is that the community is better and stronger if we are all more trusting and less fearful of each other. That happens when we make overt attempts to integrate communities by providing low income housing in wealthy areas for example.

Politically, I support candidates and policies that are inclusive. Anyone who demonizes disadvantaged minorities is either ignorant or pushing an agenda of hatred to further their own goals.

Interestingly, I do not support reparations. I think it is folly to try to ascertain who got screwed the most. We've all been screwed unless we are descendants of nobility. What we should do it make sure that stops now.

That said, I think the redistribution of wealth is not a bad idea to some extent. I think taxation is the best way to accomplish that. Even great fortunes can dwindle in just a few generations with the right tax policies in place. I am willing to pay more than my share of taxes to make sure that happens as long as the people with real wealth contribute along with me.

---

America paid

REPARATIONS

$1.6B Japanese

$32M MI Ottawas

$31M WI Chippewas

$12.3M FL Seminoles

$105M SD Sioux

$81M OR Klamaths

$1B/44 M Acres Alaska Natives

Slavers were paid Reparations !!!!

AID

$146B Israel

$60B Ukraine

The debt being paid is the only way to atone. It's the key America's survival. The atrocities are at the center of the problems
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRKLskt9/

---

Too difficult.

Since the dawn of time someone took land from someone else by force. We have no way to trace it back. A lot of Native American tribes can't even prove who should be a member or who should not be because there are no records.

Maybe we should give Alaska back to Russia and Louisiana Territory back to France because they were lopsided deals. Or maybe it is Russia and France who owe the reparations since the US bought the land fairly and it was they that stole it. Or did the title pass with all encumbrances included?

There is no way to do it fairly and so it should not be done.

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

#2 In 2011, just 35% of white liberals thought racism in the United States was “a big problem,” according to national polling.

By 2015, this figure had ballooned to 61% and further still to 77% in 2017. pic.twitter.com/qTBCQeBU1D

— KanekoaTheGreat (@KanekoaTheGreat) May 6, 2023

It has got to be the media that's largely to blame for fueling and fanning the flames of racial discord. The universities don't help either.

---

Yeah, it couldn't have been due to some purported increase in violent protests, white supremacy groups, strident political speech and politically motivated actions to restrict the rights of "those" people.

---

Help me understand this.

Are you suggesting that the climate is more racist now than in 1995? Are you suggesting that people are facing more racism now than in 1995?

If so, and if it were partly due to those things you mentioned, what is flaming such activities? Let's not go to the knee-jerk reaction of "Trump" and "MAGA" since those are symptoms and not the causes.

Is it possible, even theoretically, that race-based remedies and identity politics are also responsible for the racial divide? Is the solution part of the problem? If we are constantly identifying by race as a solution with mandated results, people will identify and create tribes based on race, would they not? No one voluntarily gives up their privilege. I would love for anyone here to identify how they have given up their privilege by giving up their job and their home that they didn't deserve because of the white privilege so that a more worthy person of color can rightfully have their job and send their kids to safer schools. No, no one does that. Instead, they alleviate their guilt by trying to say they are aligned without any real sacrifice so that they can be viewed as one of the good privileged folks.

We saw this with emasculation of men about a decade ago where some men were feigning feminism and almost self-hate to be seen as allies of the feminists. That led to a generation of emasculated men when women will always want strong, compassionate, respectful men and not sycophants. There is a danger of having a group of sycophants on racial issues who don't know how to have their own opinions with compassion instead of resorting to automatic apology and surrender, with opposite extremes being created in response. Again, real guilt will lead to real sacrifice like Alexis Ohanian demonstrated. Instead, most of the apology is in the form of empty words that people see through clearly, like Beto who turned himself from someone who can take down Cruz to the epitome of self-hate without real belief that would have manifested in real sacrifice.

As I stated, MAGA is not the problem. It is a symptom. When we have conclusions as arguments from both sides and those who don't agree put into a corner as insensitive or racists or lacking bandwidth, it will not make the disagreement go away. It will fester until a demagogue like Trump comes along and makes it OK to voice the discontent even more violently due to the prior shaming.

Open debate and potentially hurt feelings, and not name calling and shaming, are the beginning of the answer.

Anyone who has ever worked in negotiation and persuasion knows that the best way to get people over to your side of argument is find common grounds, find areas of agreement, listen and discuss. But we don't. We don't because our sense of self is not based on what we have done for the world but what we say we believe and how much we don't like the other side.

---

More racist? Yes, at least more openly and overtly.

I'm not sure we have much common ground if you see men supporting feminism and equal rights for women as men having self-hate.

---

I absolute do not support feminism as expressed in the form of male hate as opposed to just equal rights for the sexes while recognizing the difference in the sexes.

In my family, while my wife and I discuss and consult, if there is a disagreement (which is rare since I put her interest before mine), we both understand that one person has to make the final decision, and it will be me.

---

These two statements are in conflict with one another. That is not equality even if it has worked well for your family.

I have not seen what you have seen in regard to the sexes. I think a lot of men are quick to take the easy way out and women or feminists are the last thing to blame. Addiction to video games. Addiction to drugs. Addiction to everything but hard "character building" work.

In regards to race, I tend to agree with dmitrig. White people are becoming a minority and people have had their eyes opened to that in the past decade. That freaks out a lot of white people and so they embraced identity politics and fell in love with white saviors like Trump.

dimitrig said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

#2 In 2011, just 35% of white liberals thought racism in the United States was “a big problem,” according to national polling.

By 2015, this figure had ballooned to 61% and further still to 77% in 2017. pic.twitter.com/qTBCQeBU1D

— KanekoaTheGreat (@KanekoaTheGreat) May 6, 2023

It has got to be the media that's largely to blame for fueling and fanning the flames of racial discord. The universities don't help either.

---

Yeah, it couldn't have been due to some purported increase in violent protests, white supremacy groups, strident political speech and politically motivated actions to restrict the rights of "those" people.

---

Help me understand this.

Are you suggesting that the climate is more racist now than in 1995? Are you suggesting that people are facing more racism now than in 1995?

If so, and if it were partly due to those things you mentioned, what is flaming such activities? Let's not go to the knee-jerk reaction of "Trump" and "MAGA" since those are symptoms and not the causes.

Is it possible, even theoretically, that race-based remedies and identity politics are also responsible for the racial divide? Is the solution part of the problem? If we are constantly identifying by race as a solution with mandated results, people will identify and create tribes based on race, would they not? No one voluntarily gives up their privilege. I would love for anyone here to identify how they have given up their privilege by giving up their job and their home that they didn't deserve because of the white privilege so that a more worthy person of color can rightfully have their job and send their kids to safer schools. No, no one does that. Instead, they alleviate their guilt by trying to say they are aligned without any real sacrifice so that they can be viewed as one of the good privileged folks.

We saw this with emasculation of men about a decade ago where some men were feigning feminism and almost self-hate to be seen as allies of the feminists. That led to a generation of emasculated men when women will always want strong, compassionate, respectful men and not sycophants. There is a danger of having a group of sycophants on racial issues who don't know how to have their own opinions with compassion instead of resorting to automatic apology and surrender, with opposite extremes being created in response. Again, real guilt will lead to real sacrifice like Alexis Ohanian demonstrated. Instead, most of the apology is in the form of empty words that people see through clearly, like Beto who turned himself from someone who can take down Cruz to the epitome of self-hate without real belief that would have manifested in real sacrifice.

As I stated, MAGA is not the problem. It is a symptom. When we have conclusions as arguments from both sides and those who don't agree put into a corner as insensitive or racists or lacking bandwidth, it will not make the disagreement go away. It will fester until a demagogue like Trump comes along and makes it OK to voice the discontent even more violently due to the prior shaming.

Open debate and potentially hurt feelings, and not name calling and shaming, are the beginning of the answer.

Anyone who has ever worked in negotiation and persuasion knows that the best way to get people over to your side of argument is find common grounds, find areas of agreement, listen and discuss. But we don't. We don't because our sense of self is not based on what we have done for the world but what we say we believe and how much we don't like the other side.

---

More racist? Yes, at least more openly and overtly.

I'm not sure we have much common ground if you see men supporting feminism and equal rights for women as men having self-hate.

---

I guess I was asking what you think has caused the climate to be more racist in your view despite all of the mandated social engineering supposedly designed to mitigate and alleviate racism in our society.

I absolute do not support feminism as expressed in the form of male hate as opposed to just equal rights for the sexes while recognizing the difference in the sexes. I believe the sexes are different, and I have taught my boys to be strong, respectful men who lead and protect the women in their lives. But if you have not seen the surrender from males claiming to be feminists in the prior decade with men in themselves and masculinity argued as inferior or toxic as opposed to just dishonorable behavior of some men, you are not being genuine. Chivalry is a good thing. I still train in mixed martial arts because I feel the need to be the protector while honoring and respecting my wife and daughters in all things. In my family, while my wife and I discuss and consult, if there is a disagreement (which is rare since I put her interest before mine), we both understand that one person has to make the final decision, and it will be me. I don't care what anyone else says. That has worked well in my family.

---

My opinion is that there are a lot of people who are tolerant as long as it doesn't threaten them in some way. They know that one gay guy at the office and make fun of his flamboyant clothes. They have that one black friend. Their gardener is Mexican and their doctor is Jewish. A Sikh runs the gas station. Their accountant is Korean. Maybe their boss is even a woman. Hey, America is about diversity, right? It bothers them sometimes but it's no big deal.

However, when they start to feel like they are losing power then their mere prejudice becomes bigotry. As I said earlier, I think Obama becoming President and appointing a lot of black people to positions of power changed the dynamic.

Combine that with people losing their jobs to immigrants (legal or otherwise) and women and minorities such as Asians being better educated and less willing to take **** as a result and uneducated white men saw that their role in the future of America is diminishing. Rather than go to school like their female counterparts they retreated to the havens of uneducated white males like the trades and the police force which is where they are still concentrated.

They think if they can send all the immigrants back, prevent people from obtaining an education, and control women they can level the playing field.

On 1995 they weren't a minority, but now they are and it will just get worse over time. The white neighborhood will tolerate a minority family living there but when it becomes 50% minorities they want to leave or else force the minorities out.

---

Interesting perspective.

A few thoughts and questions.

So, have the uneducated white men lost "power" and, therefore, are acting out? All this talk of white privilege is no longer relevant to them since they are now in the minority and have lost the power they once enjoyed?

All the uneducated white women, in response, went to college? So are women superior to men?

Educated white men like yourself (if you are white) are immune from feeling the same threat and therefore did not fall victim to the hateful response? Or are the folks here just a superior model and have no need for further sacrifice or have privilege they should surrender willingly to the rightful owners?

We seem to talk about others being the problem and being the ones who need to change. How about you and others who feel as you do? Is feeling enough or do you actually have to surrender what you believe were ill gotten? Just wondering the degree of conviction. Obviously, if you found out your kids stole your neighbor's bike, you would return it. How about what you obtained from the social construct that gave you your position in life?

Thanks for your thoughtful responses. All interesting takes even if I disagree.

---

Older white men still have most of the power in this country, but it is less than it used to be and society is actively trying to take it away from them. They view this as a bad thing instead of a positive thing because they are selfish. White privilege still exists but even the fact that we talk about it irritates them because they refuse to believe it.

I don't know if women are superior to men, but the stats say that in 1995 26% of men had a college degree and 20% of women did. Now men are up to 36% but women have doubled to 40%. That means a lot more competition in the workplace and in general. A lot of women might have a problem with you being the one to "make the final decision" in your family. Would that bother you?

I think educated people are less fearful, more tolerant, and more compassionate. Exposure to different beliefs and cultures in college is key but so is recognizing that in a true meritocracy the person who succeeds may not look like me or hold my same beliefs. White male Christians are taught that other races and religions are inferior as are women. In college it becomes evident that is not always true.

As for what I can do, it is not clear that surrendering what I have is the best course of action. I'm not wealthy and powerful. What I can do is work to change society and lift people up. As a white male I acknowledge I might have a bias in hiring decisions or other areas where I can impact people's lives financially and try to overcome that bias.

I try to treat people with respect and kindness. I try to set a good example for my own community and also for other communities by giving people the benefit of the doubt. That young black male at the bus stop is probably waiting for a bus and not waiting to rob me as I walk by so smile and say hello instead of move to the other side of the street like some people might. What I see is that the community is better and stronger if we are all more trusting and less fearful of each other. That happens when we make overt attempts to integrate communities by providing low income housing in wealthy areas for example.

Politically, I support candidates and policies that are inclusive. Anyone who demonizes disadvantaged minorities is either ignorant or pushing an agenda of hatred to further their own goals.

Interestingly, I do not support reparations. I think it is folly to try to ascertain who got screwed the most. We've all been screwed unless we are descendants of nobility. What we should do it make sure that stops now.

That said, I think the redistribution of wealth is not a bad idea to some extent. I think taxation is the best way to accomplish that. Even great fortunes can dwindle in just a few generations with the right tax policies in place. I am willing to pay more than my share of taxes to make sure that happens as long as the people with real wealth contribute along with me.

---

Good points.

The only thing I would object to is what Christians are taught. If anything, Christians are taught that race does not matter.
See Colossians 3:11; Romans 10:12. Also, Christians are not taught that men are superior to women. They are taught that we have different roles but that men are supposed to honor their wives and sacrifice their own needs for those of their wives. Not sure if your family has the father and mother roles interchangeable but I think it is not unusual for each to play a specific role in the family and for one person at the end to have the tie breaker.

dajo9 said:

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calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

#2 In 2011, just 35% of white liberals thought racism in the United States was “a big problem,” according to national polling.

By 2015, this figure had ballooned to 61% and further still to 77% in 2017. pic.twitter.com/qTBCQeBU1D

— KanekoaTheGreat (@KanekoaTheGreat) May 6, 2023

It has got to be the media that's largely to blame for fueling and fanning the flames of racial discord. The universities don't help either.

---

Yeah, it couldn't have been due to some purported increase in violent protests, white supremacy groups, strident political speech and politically motivated actions to restrict the rights of "those" people.

---

Help me understand this.

Are you suggesting that the climate is more racist now than in 1995? Are you suggesting that people are facing more racism now than in 1995?

If so, and if it were partly due to those things you mentioned, what is flaming such activities? Let's not go to the knee-jerk reaction of "Trump" and "MAGA" since those are symptoms and not the causes.

Is it possible, even theoretically, that race-based remedies and identity politics are also responsible for the racial divide? Is the solution part of the problem? If we are constantly identifying by race as a solution with mandated results, people will identify and create tribes based on race, would they not? No one voluntarily gives up their privilege. I would love for anyone here to identify how they have given up their privilege by giving up their job and their home that they didn't deserve because of the white privilege so that a more worthy person of color can rightfully have their job and send their kids to safer schools. No, no one does that. Instead, they alleviate their guilt by trying to say they are aligned without any real sacrifice so that they can be viewed as one of the good privileged folks.

We saw this with emasculation of men about a decade ago where some men were feigning feminism and almost self-hate to be seen as allies of the feminists. That led to a generation of emasculated men when women will always want strong, compassionate, respectful men and not sycophants. There is a danger of having a group of sycophants on racial issues who don't know how to have their own opinions with compassion instead of resorting to automatic apology and surrender, with opposite extremes being created in response. Again, real guilt will lead to real sacrifice like Alexis Ohanian demonstrated. Instead, most of the apology is in the form of empty words that people see through clearly, like Beto who turned himself from someone who can take down Cruz to the epitome of self-hate without real belief that would have manifested in real sacrifice.

As I stated, MAGA is not the problem. It is a symptom. When we have conclusions as arguments from both sides and those who don't agree put into a corner as insensitive or racists or lacking bandwidth, it will not make the disagreement go away. It will fester until a demagogue like Trump comes along and makes it OK to voice the discontent even more violently due to the prior shaming.

Open debate and potentially hurt feelings, and not name calling and shaming, are the beginning of the answer.

Anyone who has ever worked in negotiation and persuasion knows that the best way to get people over to your side of argument is find common grounds, find areas of agreement, listen and discuss. But we don't. We don't because our sense of self is not based on what we have done for the world but what we say we believe and how much we don't like the other side.

---

More racist? Yes, at least more openly and overtly.

I'm not sure we have much common ground if you see men supporting feminism and equal rights for women as men having self-hate.

---

I absolute do not support feminism as expressed in the form of male hate as opposed to just equal rights for the sexes while recognizing the difference in the sexes.

In my family, while my wife and I discuss and consult, if there is a disagreement (which is rare since I put her interest before mine), we both understand that one person has to make the final decision, and it will be me.

---

These two statements are in conflict with one another. That is not equality even if it has worked well for your family.

I have not seen what you have seen in regard to the sexes. I think a lot of men are quick to take the easy way out and women or feminists are the last thing to blame. Addiction to video games. Addiction to drugs. Addiction to everything but hard "character building" work.

In regards to race, I tend to agree with dmitrig. White people are becoming a minority and people have had their eyes opened to that in the past decade. That freaks out a lot of white people and so they embraced identity politics and fell in love with white saviors like Trump.

---

I don't know what other people were writing about but I was referencing men needing to be strong, disciplined, protectors who are respectful, sacrificial and chivalrous to the women in their lives. That has nothing to do with men of weak character who are addicted to video games or drugs. We are talking about two different things. I don't disagree that many men have lost their ways and men have forgotten how to be men, instead thinking macho bravado makes a man a man. Lack of self control or integrity is not masculine in any generation. Not being a protector or provider but instead wasting away on video games or any other addiction instead of providing is not masculine. Asking the women to lead, provide or protect is not masculine. Not being respectful or honorable to women is not masculine. Acquiescing to everything a woman wants without standing up for your principles is not masculine. We are talking about different things, I believe.

I'm sure in your family, there are times when you and your wife, despite best efforts, cannot reach an agreement. Is there just a perpetual impasse? Who settles a dispute with your kids watching?

By the way, I don't think the far right fanatics are the only ones playing identity politics. Do you?

dimitrig said:

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going4roses said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

#2 In 2011, just 35% of white liberals thought racism in the United States was “a big problem,” according to national polling.

By 2015, this figure had ballooned to 61% and further still to 77% in 2017. pic.twitter.com/qTBCQeBU1D

— KanekoaTheGreat (@KanekoaTheGreat) May 6, 2023

It has got to be the media that's largely to blame for fueling and fanning the flames of racial discord. The universities don't help either.

---

Yeah, it couldn't have been due to some purported increase in violent protests, white supremacy groups, strident political speech and politically motivated actions to restrict the rights of "those" people.

---

Help me understand this.

Are you suggesting that the climate is more racist now than in 1995? Are you suggesting that people are facing more racism now than in 1995?

If so, and if it were partly due to those things you mentioned, what is flaming such activities? Let's not go to the knee-jerk reaction of "Trump" and "MAGA" since those are symptoms and not the causes.

Is it possible, even theoretically, that race-based remedies and identity politics are also responsible for the racial divide? Is the solution part of the problem? If we are constantly identifying by race as a solution with mandated results, people will identify and create tribes based on race, would they not? No one voluntarily gives up their privilege. I would love for anyone here to identify how they have given up their privilege by giving up their job and their home that they didn't deserve because of the white privilege so that a more worthy person of color can rightfully have their job and send their kids to safer schools. No, no one does that. Instead, they alleviate their guilt by trying to say they are aligned without any real sacrifice so that they can be viewed as one of the good privileged folks.

We saw this with emasculation of men about a decade ago where some men were feigning feminism and almost self-hate to be seen as allies of the feminists. That led to a generation of emasculated men when women will always want strong, compassionate, respectful men and not sycophants. There is a danger of having a group of sycophants on racial issues who don't know how to have their own opinions with compassion instead of resorting to automatic apology and surrender, with opposite extremes being created in response. Again, real guilt will lead to real sacrifice like Alexis Ohanian demonstrated. Instead, most of the apology is in the form of empty words that people see through clearly, like Beto who turned himself from someone who can take down Cruz to the epitome of self-hate without real belief that would have manifested in real sacrifice.

As I stated, MAGA is not the problem. It is a symptom. When we have conclusions as arguments from both sides and those who don't agree put into a corner as insensitive or racists or lacking bandwidth, it will not make the disagreement go away. It will fester until a demagogue like Trump comes along and makes it OK to voice the discontent even more violently due to the prior shaming.

Open debate and potentially hurt feelings, and not name calling and shaming, are the beginning of the answer.

Anyone who has ever worked in negotiation and persuasion knows that the best way to get people over to your side of argument is find common grounds, find areas of agreement, listen and discuss. But we don't. We don't because our sense of self is not based on what we have done for the world but what we say we believe and how much we don't like the other side.

---

More racist? Yes, at least more openly and overtly.

I'm not sure we have much common ground if you see men supporting feminism and equal rights for women as men having self-hate.

---

I guess I was asking what you think has caused the climate to be more racist in your view despite all of the mandated social engineering supposedly designed to mitigate and alleviate racism in our society.

I absolute do not support feminism as expressed in the form of male hate as opposed to just equal rights for the sexes while recognizing the difference in the sexes. I believe the sexes are different, and I have taught my boys to be strong, respectful men who lead and protect the women in their lives. But if you have not seen the surrender from males claiming to be feminists in the prior decade with men in themselves and masculinity argued as inferior or toxic as opposed to just dishonorable behavior of some men, you are not being genuine. Chivalry is a good thing. I still train in mixed martial arts because I feel the need to be the protector while honoring and respecting my wife and daughters in all things. In my family, while my wife and I discuss and consult, if there is a disagreement (which is rare since I put her interest before mine), we both understand that one person has to make the final decision, and it will be me. I don't care what anyone else says. That has worked well in my family.

---

My opinion is that there are a lot of people who are tolerant as long as it doesn't threaten them in some way. They know that one gay guy at the office and make fun of his flamboyant clothes. They have that one black friend. Their gardener is Mexican and their doctor is Jewish. A Sikh runs the gas station. Their accountant is Korean. Maybe their boss is even a woman. Hey, America is about diversity, right? It bothers them sometimes but it's no big deal.

However, when they start to feel like they are losing power then their mere prejudice becomes bigotry. As I said earlier, I think Obama becoming President and appointing a lot of black people to positions of power changed the dynamic.

Combine that with people losing their jobs to immigrants (legal or otherwise) and women and minorities such as Asians being better educated and less willing to take **** as a result and uneducated white men saw that their role in the future of America is diminishing. Rather than go to school like their female counterparts they retreated to the havens of uneducated white males like the trades and the police force which is where they are still concentrated.

They think if they can send all the immigrants back, prevent people from obtaining an education, and control women they can level the playing field.

On 1995 they weren't a minority, but now they are and it will just get worse over time. The white neighborhood will tolerate a minority family living there but when it becomes 50% minorities they want to leave or else force the minorities out.

---

Interesting perspective.

A few thoughts and questions.

So, have the uneducated white men lost "power" and, therefore, are acting out? All this talk of white privilege is no longer relevant to them since they are now in the minority and have lost the power they once enjoyed?

All the uneducated white women, in response, went to college? So are women superior to men?

Educated white men like yourself (if you are white) are immune from feeling the same threat and therefore did not fall victim to the hateful response? Or are the folks here just a superior model and have no need for further sacrifice or have privilege they should surrender willingly to the rightful owners?

We seem to talk about others being the problem and being the ones who need to change. How about you and others who feel as you do? Is feeling enough or do you actually have to surrender what you believe were ill gotten? Just wondering the degree of conviction. Obviously, if you found out your kids stole your neighbor's bike, you would return it. How about what you obtained from the social construct that gave you your position in life?

Thanks for your thoughtful responses. All interesting takes even if I disagree.

---

Older white men still have most of the power in this country, but it is less than it used to be and society is actively trying to take it away from them. They view this as a bad thing instead of a positive thing because they are selfish. White privilege still exists but even the fact that we talk about it irritates them because they refuse to believe it.

I don't know if women are superior to men, but the stats say that in 1995 26% of men had a college degree and 20% of women did. Now men are up to 36% but women have doubled to 40%. That means a lot more competition in the workplace and in general. A lot of women might have a problem with you being the one to "make the final decision" in your family. Would that bother you?

I think educated people are less fearful, more tolerant, and more compassionate. Exposure to different beliefs and cultures in college is key but so is recognizing that in a true meritocracy the person who succeeds may not look like me or hold my same beliefs. White male Christians are taught that other races and religions are inferior as are women. In college it becomes evident that is not always true.

As for what I can do, it is not clear that surrendering what I have is the best course of action. I'm not wealthy and powerful. What I can do is work to change society and lift people up. As a white male I acknowledge I might have a bias in hiring decisions or other areas where I can impact people's lives financially and try to overcome that bias.

I try to treat people with respect and kindness. I try to set a good example for my own community and also for other communities by giving people the benefit of the doubt. That young black male at the bus stop is probably waiting for a bus and not waiting to rob me as I walk by so smile and say hello instead of move to the other side of the street like some people might. What I see is that the community is better and stronger if we are all more trusting and less fearful of each other. That happens when we make overt attempts to integrate communities by providing low income housing in wealthy areas for example.

Politically, I support candidates and policies that are inclusive. Anyone who demonizes disadvantaged minorities is either ignorant or pushing an agenda of hatred to further their own goals.

Interestingly, I do not support reparations. I think it is folly to try to ascertain who got screwed the most. We've all been screwed unless we are descendants of nobility. What we should do it make sure that stops now.

That said, I think the redistribution of wealth is not a bad idea to some extent. I think taxation is the best way to accomplish that. Even great fortunes can dwindle in just a few generations with the right tax policies in place. I am willing to pay more than my share of taxes to make sure that happens as long as the people with real wealth contribute along with me.

---

America paid

REPARATIONS

$1.6B Japanese

$32M MI Ottawas

$31M WI Chippewas

$12.3M FL Seminoles

$105M SD Sioux

$81M OR Klamaths

$1B/44 M Acres Alaska Natives

Slavers were paid Reparations !!!!

AID

$146B Israel

$60B Ukraine

The debt being paid is the only way to atone. It's the key America's survival. The atrocities are at the center of the problems
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRKLskt9/

---

Too difficult.

Since the dawn of time someone took land from someone else by force. We have no way to trace it back. A lot of Native American tribes can't even prove who should be a member or who should not be because there are no records.

Maybe we should give Alaska back to Russia and Louisiana Territory back to France because they were lopsided deals. Or maybe it is Russia and France who owe the reparations since the US bought the land fairly and it was they that stole it. Or did the title pass with all encumbrances included?

There is no way to do it fairly and so it should not be done.

---

America has been horrible to different degrees to almost every single ethnic group. Native Americans, Chinese, and even Italians and Irish. We will be paying reparations for ages. For the Japanese, it was only paid to survivors who had property taken and only $20K. Also, Italians should be paying everyone for the oppression during the Roman Empire. How about the British? For as long as there were human beings, we have been horrible to each other.

calbear93 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

#2 In 2011, just 35% of white liberals thought racism in the United States was “a big problem,” according to national polling.

By 2015, this figure had ballooned to 61% and further still to 77% in 2017. pic.twitter.com/qTBCQeBU1D

— KanekoaTheGreat (@KanekoaTheGreat) May 6, 2023

It has got to be the media that's largely to blame for fueling and fanning the flames of racial discord. The universities don't help either.

---

Yeah, it couldn't have been due to some purported increase in violent protests, white supremacy groups, strident political speech and politically motivated actions to restrict the rights of "those" people.

---

Help me understand this.

Are you suggesting that the climate is more racist now than in 1995? Are you suggesting that people are facing more racism now than in 1995?

If so, and if it were partly due to those things you mentioned, what is flaming such activities? Let's not go to the knee-jerk reaction of "Trump" and "MAGA" since those are symptoms and not the causes.

Is it possible, even theoretically, that race-based remedies and identity politics are also responsible for the racial divide? Is the solution part of the problem? If we are constantly identifying by race as a solution with mandated results, people will identify and create tribes based on race, would they not? No one voluntarily gives up their privilege. I would love for anyone here to identify how they have given up their privilege by giving up their job and their home that they didn't deserve because of the white privilege so that a more worthy person of color can rightfully have their job and send their kids to safer schools. No, no one does that. Instead, they alleviate their guilt by trying to say they are aligned without any real sacrifice so that they can be viewed as one of the good privileged folks.

We saw this with emasculation of men about a decade ago where some men were feigning feminism and almost self-hate to be seen as allies of the feminists. That led to a generation of emasculated men when women will always want strong, compassionate, respectful men and not sycophants. There is a danger of having a group of sycophants on racial issues who don't know how to have their own opinions with compassion instead of resorting to automatic apology and surrender, with opposite extremes being created in response. Again, real guilt will lead to real sacrifice like Alexis Ohanian demonstrated. Instead, most of the apology is in the form of empty words that people see through clearly, like Beto who turned himself from someone who can take down Cruz to the epitome of self-hate without real belief that would have manifested in real sacrifice.

As I stated, MAGA is not the problem. It is a symptom. When we have conclusions as arguments from both sides and those who don't agree put into a corner as insensitive or racists or lacking bandwidth, it will not make the disagreement go away. It will fester until a demagogue like Trump comes along and makes it OK to voice the discontent even more violently due to the prior shaming.

Open debate and potentially hurt feelings, and not name calling and shaming, are the beginning of the answer.

Anyone who has ever worked in negotiation and persuasion knows that the best way to get people over to your side of argument is find common grounds, find areas of agreement, listen and discuss. But we don't. We don't because our sense of self is not based on what we have done for the world but what we say we believe and how much we don't like the other side.

---

More racist? Yes, at least more openly and overtly.

I'm not sure we have much common ground if you see men supporting feminism and equal rights for women as men having self-hate.

---

I absolute do not support feminism as expressed in the form of male hate as opposed to just equal rights for the sexes while recognizing the difference in the sexes.

In my family, while my wife and I discuss and consult, if there is a disagreement (which is rare since I put her interest before mine), we both understand that one person has to make the final decision, and it will be me.

---

These two statements are in conflict with one another. That is not equality even if it has worked well for your family.

I have not seen what you have seen in regard to the sexes. I think a lot of men are quick to take the easy way out and women or feminists are the last thing to blame. Addiction to video games. Addiction to drugs. Addiction to everything but hard "character building" work.

In regards to race, I tend to agree with dmitrig. White people are becoming a minority and people have had their eyes opened to that in the past decade. That freaks out a lot of white people and so they embraced identity politics and fell in love with white saviors like Trump.

---

I don't know what other people were writing about but I was referencing men needing to be strong, disciplined, protectors who are respectful, sacrificial and chivalrous to the women in their lives. That has nothing to do with men of weak character who are addicted to video games or drugs. We are talking about two different things. I don't disagree that many men have lost their ways and men have forgotten how to be men, instead thinking macho bravado makes a man a man. Lack of self control or integrity is not masculine in any generation. Not being a protector or provider but instead wasting away on video games or any other addiction instead of providing is not masculine. Asking the women to lead, provide or protect is not masculine. Not being respectful or honorable to women is not masculine. Acquiescing to everything a woman wants without standing up for your principles is not masculine. We are talking about different things, I believe.

I'm sure in your family, there are times when you and your wife, despite best efforts, cannot reach an agreement. Is there just a perpetual impasse? Who settles a dispute with your kids watching?

By the way, I don't think the far right fanatics are the only ones playing identity politics. Do you?

---

I am very fortunate in that my wife and I have few areas of disagreement so there is not a lot for me to draw from here. I attribute that to us marrying in our 30s and knowing from life experience our compatabilities.

We are both fundamentally hard working, savers, who put our kids first. I'm sure you can agree with me that it helps to have money and so we can avoid those disputes.

We moved recently and that process is probably indicative of our household. I raised the topic as something that would be good for the kids. Over a few months of mental processing my wife came around to the idea. I wasn't insistent or anything. We just occasionally talked about things as they came up. Once we both agreed we both went into motion.

I think we both strive to avoid disagreements in front of the kids. I am particularly sensitive to that and to shouting of any kind in the household. I tend to shout that down and end it rapidly. I think that is from growing up in a household of shouting and divorce. I can't stand it and from experience I can shout any of them (bringing kids in here) down in a heartbeat and bring disagreements down to a respectable volume.

My wife does more around the house than me but I'm not a complete slouch there either. If she asks for help with something I tend to do it and vice versa. I just don't have examples where we stood on opposite sides of an issue and couldn't find common ground.

White U.C. Berkeley professor benefited from being Native American...

"By claiming a false identity on grant and job applications, Hoover robbed Indigenous scholars of these opportunities," the letter said.

In Monday's letter, Hoover admitted she received "academic fellowships, opportunities and material benefits" that she may not have received if she didn't identify as Native."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/uc-berkeley-professor-apologizes-for-claiming-to-be-native-american-i-am-a-white-person/ar-AA1aRsMb?li=BBnbfcL

going4roses said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

#2 In 2011, just 35% of white liberals thought racism in the United States was “a big problem,” according to national polling.

By 2015, this figure had ballooned to 61% and further still to 77% in 2017. pic.twitter.com/qTBCQeBU1D

— KanekoaTheGreat (@KanekoaTheGreat) May 6, 2023

It has got to be the media that's largely to blame for fueling and fanning the flames of racial discord. The universities don't help either.

---

Yeah, it couldn't have been due to some purported increase in violent protests, white supremacy groups, strident political speech and politically motivated actions to restrict the rights of "those" people.

---

Help me understand this.

Are you suggesting that the climate is more racist now than in 1995? Are you suggesting that people are facing more racism now than in 1995?

If so, and if it were partly due to those things you mentioned, what is flaming such activities? Let's not go to the knee-jerk reaction of "Trump" and "MAGA" since those are symptoms and not the causes.

Is it possible, even theoretically, that race-based remedies and identity politics are also responsible for the racial divide? Is the solution part of the problem? If we are constantly identifying by race as a solution with mandated results, people will identify and create tribes based on race, would they not? No one voluntarily gives up their privilege. I would love for anyone here to identify how they have given up their privilege by giving up their job and their home that they didn't deserve because of the white privilege so that a more worthy person of color can rightfully have their job and send their kids to safer schools. No, no one does that. Instead, they alleviate their guilt by trying to say they are aligned without any real sacrifice so that they can be viewed as one of the good privileged folks.

We saw this with emasculation of men about a decade ago where some men were feigning feminism and almost self-hate to be seen as allies of the feminists. That led to a generation of emasculated men when women will always want strong, compassionate, respectful men and not sycophants. There is a danger of having a group of sycophants on racial issues who don't know how to have their own opinions with compassion instead of resorting to automatic apology and surrender, with opposite extremes being created in response. Again, real guilt will lead to real sacrifice like Alexis Ohanian demonstrated. Instead, most of the apology is in the form of empty words that people see through clearly, like Beto who turned himself from someone who can take down Cruz to the epitome of self-hate without real belief that would have manifested in real sacrifice.

As I stated, MAGA is not the problem. It is a symptom. When we have conclusions as arguments from both sides and those who don't agree put into a corner as insensitive or racists or lacking bandwidth, it will not make the disagreement go away. It will fester until a demagogue like Trump comes along and makes it OK to voice the discontent even more violently due to the prior shaming.

Open debate and potentially hurt feelings, and not name calling and shaming, are the beginning of the answer.

Anyone who has ever worked in negotiation and persuasion knows that the best way to get people over to your side of argument is find common grounds, find areas of agreement, listen and discuss. But we don't. We don't because our sense of self is not based on what we have done for the world but what we say we believe and how much we don't like the other side.

---

More racist? Yes, at least more openly and overtly.

I'm not sure we have much common ground if you see men supporting feminism and equal rights for women as men having self-hate.

---

I guess I was asking what you think has caused the climate to be more racist in your view despite all of the mandated social engineering supposedly designed to mitigate and alleviate racism in our society.

I absolute do not support feminism as expressed in the form of male hate as opposed to just equal rights for the sexes while recognizing the difference in the sexes. I believe the sexes are different, and I have taught my boys to be strong, respectful men who lead and protect the women in their lives. But if you have not seen the surrender from males claiming to be feminists in the prior decade with men in themselves and masculinity argued as inferior or toxic as opposed to just dishonorable behavior of some men, you are not being genuine. Chivalry is a good thing. I still train in mixed martial arts because I feel the need to be the protector while honoring and respecting my wife and daughters in all things. In my family, while my wife and I discuss and consult, if there is a disagreement (which is rare since I put her interest before mine), we both understand that one person has to make the final decision, and it will be me. I don't care what anyone else says. That has worked well in my family.

---

My opinion is that there are a lot of people who are tolerant as long as it doesn't threaten them in some way. They know that one gay guy at the office and make fun of his flamboyant clothes. They have that one black friend. Their gardener is Mexican and their doctor is Jewish. A Sikh runs the gas station. Their accountant is Korean. Maybe their boss is even a woman. Hey, America is about diversity, right? It bothers them sometimes but it's no big deal.

However, when they start to feel like they are losing power then their mere prejudice becomes bigotry. As I said earlier, I think Obama becoming President and appointing a lot of black people to positions of power changed the dynamic.

Combine that with people losing their jobs to immigrants (legal or otherwise) and women and minorities such as Asians being better educated and less willing to take **** as a result and uneducated white men saw that their role in the future of America is diminishing. Rather than go to school like their female counterparts they retreated to the havens of uneducated white males like the trades and the police force which is where they are still concentrated.

They think if they can send all the immigrants back, prevent people from obtaining an education, and control women they can level the playing field.

On 1995 they weren't a minority, but now they are and it will just get worse over time. The white neighborhood will tolerate a minority family living there but when it becomes 50% minorities they want to leave or else force the minorities out.

---

Interesting perspective.

A few thoughts and questions.

So, have the uneducated white men lost "power" and, therefore, are acting out? All this talk of white privilege is no longer relevant to them since they are now in the minority and have lost the power they once enjoyed?

All the uneducated white women, in response, went to college? So are women superior to men?

Educated white men like yourself (if you are white) are immune from feeling the same threat and therefore did not fall victim to the hateful response? Or are the folks here just a superior model and have no need for further sacrifice or have privilege they should surrender willingly to the rightful owners?

We seem to talk about others being the problem and being the ones who need to change. How about you and others who feel as you do? Is feeling enough or do you actually have to surrender what you believe were ill gotten? Just wondering the degree of conviction. Obviously, if you found out your kids stole your neighbor's bike, you would return it. How about what you obtained from the social construct that gave you your position in life?

Thanks for your thoughtful responses. All interesting takes even if I disagree.

---

Older white men still have most of the power in this country, but it is less than it used to be and society is actively trying to take it away from them. They view this as a bad thing instead of a positive thing because they are selfish. White privilege still exists but even the fact that we talk about it irritates them because they refuse to believe it.

I don't know if women are superior to men, but the stats say that in 1995 26% of men had a college degree and 20% of women did. Now men are up to 36% but women have doubled to 40%. That means a lot more competition in the workplace and in general. A lot of women might have a problem with you being the one to "make the final decision" in your family. Would that bother you?

I think educated people are less fearful, more tolerant, and more compassionate. Exposure to different beliefs and cultures in college is key but so is recognizing that in a true meritocracy the person who succeeds may not look like me or hold my same beliefs. White male Christians are taught that other races and religions are inferior as are women. In college it becomes evident that is not always true.

As for what I can do, it is not clear that surrendering what I have is the best course of action. I'm not wealthy and powerful. What I can do is work to change society and lift people up. As a white male I acknowledge I might have a bias in hiring decisions or other areas where I can impact people's lives financially and try to overcome that bias.

I try to treat people with respect and kindness. I try to set a good example for my own community and also for other communities by giving people the benefit of the doubt. That young black male at the bus stop is probably waiting for a bus and not waiting to rob me as I walk by so smile and say hello instead of move to the other side of the street like some people might. What I see is that the community is better and stronger if we are all more trusting and less fearful of each other. That happens when we make overt attempts to integrate communities by providing low income housing in wealthy areas for example.

Politically, I support candidates and policies that are inclusive. Anyone who demonizes disadvantaged minorities is either ignorant or pushing an agenda of hatred to further their own goals.

Interestingly, I do not support reparations. I think it is folly to try to ascertain who got screwed the most. We've all been screwed unless we are descendants of nobility. What we should do it make sure that stops now.

That said, I think the redistribution of wealth is not a bad idea to some extent. I think taxation is the best way to accomplish that. Even great fortunes can dwindle in just a few generations with the right tax policies in place. I am willing to pay more than my share of taxes to make sure that happens as long as the people with real wealth contribute along with me.

---

America paid

REPARATIONS

$1.6B Japanese

$32M MI Ottawas

$31M WI Chippewas

$12.3M FL Seminoles

$105M SD Sioux

$81M OR Klamaths

$1B/44 M Acres Alaska Natives

Slavers were paid Reparations !!!!

AID

$146B Israel

$60B Ukraine

The debt being paid is the only way to atone. It's the key America's survival. The atrocities are at the center of the problems
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRKLskt9/

---

We have had 50 years or so of affirmative action related policies trying to work to elevate minorities to positions of influence. The story I just posted is of a Berkeley professor accused of pretending to be Native American to advance her career. Aren't we creating opportunities for African Americans?

In my humble opinion those are excuses that will doom this place.

It comes down to either the enslavers offspring and those that continue to benefit many times over through from the terrorism ( government approved ) rape (human trafficking) stolen land and generational wealth and free labor(without the free labor there is No USA !!! The white depravity that continues to destroy this place is the problem.

going4roses said:

---

In my humble opinion those are excuses that will doom this place.

It comes down to either the enslavers offspring and those that continue to benefit many times over through from the terrorism ( government approved ) rape (human trafficking) stolen land and generational wealth and free labor(without the free labor there is No USA !!! The white depravity that continues to destroy this place is the problem.

---

It sounds like you are making excuses for why people of a certain race can't succeed. You don't think African Americans can do do well in school, get good jobs, and provide an environment for their kids to succeed?

going4roses said:

---

DiabloWags said:

---

Interestingly enough, CNN did in fact make a business decision to go full on "Black Lives Matter" about 8 years ago.
Anderson Cooper got pulled from CNN Prime Time for Don Lemon. Every night was a BLM "highlight" show.
And the rest is history.

---

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRKLLFLJ/

---

But what does TikTok say???

dimitrig said:

---

My opinion is that there are a lot of people who are tolerant as long as it doesn't threaten them in some way. They know that one gay guy at the office and make fun of his flamboyant clothes. They have that one black friend. Their gardener is Mexican and their doctor is Jewish. A Sikh runs the gas station. Their accountant is Korean. Maybe their boss is even a woman. Hey, America is about diversity, right? It bothers them sometimes but it's no big deal.

However, when they start to feel like they are losing power then their mere prejudice becomes bigotry. As I said earlier, I think Obama becoming President and appointing a lot of black people to positions of power changed the dynamic.

Combine that with people losing their jobs to immigrants (legal or otherwise) and women and minorities such as Asians being better educated and less willing to take **** as a result and uneducated white men saw that their role in the future of America is diminishing. Rather than go to school like their female counterparts they retreated to the havens of uneducated white males like the trades and the police force which is where they are still concentrated.

They think if they can send all the immigrants back, prevent people from obtaining an education, and control women they can level the playing field.

---

I would agree with this, especially in parts of rural and Middle America.
The Rust Belt States never fully recovered from the Recession of 2008/2009 while a Black Man was President.

Many companies in the Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania corridor closed down, especially in the manufacturing sector. If these jobs hadnt been slashed by outsourcing to other countries in the early 2000's, the 2008 Recession made sure of that.

And while educated white professionals were able to bounce back from the Great Recession, many uneducated, white guys (and white women) in the trades and manufacturing sector got left behind. Their economic livelihoods did not bounce back. Meanwhile, the BLM movement was picking up steam and getting increased exposure on national media outlets like CNN.

During this time, you couldnt go a single night on CNN without a full-hour show on BLM. I'm serious. Did anyone from the media ever go to the Rustbelt to find out why the white manufacturing worker at the local mill for 25 years had gotten laid off?

Of course not.

It wasnt until the 2016 Presidential Election came along that the Democratic Party truly realized just how out of touch they were with their typical labor strongholds in the Rust Belt. It was here that Trump aggressively campaigned with a (genius) slogan developed by Steve Bannon of "Drain the Swamp" coupled with the Ronald Reagan slogan of "Let's Make America Great Again!"

This resonated with the uneducated blue-collar worker in spades, who had been forgotten coming out of the Great Recession.

Bill Clinton warned his wife that she was becoming perceived as an elitist and had no idea about the angst that white Americans had in the Rust Belt. She didnt even bother campaigning in Wisconsin or Michigan, and Pennsylvania was literally an afterthought. These were all states that Obama had carried by large margins. These were the traditional "Blue Wall" states. She had just assumed that these were traditional big time labor strongholds of the Democratic Party that would automatically get her vote. Her advisors even wondered why Trump was spending so much time in the Rust Belt. Meanwhile, the Clinton campaign was pouring a ton of effort into Florida and South Carolina. The Atlantic did a terrific article on this:

The Rustbelt States Hillary Clinton Neglected Led to Her Defeat - The Atlantic

Clearly, Trump and his team were highly accurate in their assessment in the sense of the white blue collar worker feeling left-out, and left behind. Trump beat Clinton among white voters without a college education by an astonishing 39 percentage points - - - a margin larger than Ronald Reagans' against Walter Mondale in his 1984 landslide. In fact, Trump not only beat Hillary by 50 pionts among blue-collar white men, but by almost 30 points among non-college educated white women.

Hilllary was clueless and paid the price.
And so began the Great American Fissure that has lead to an ugly "division" in the UNITED States of America.

calbear93 said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

#2 In 2011, just 35% of white liberals thought racism in the United States was “a big problem,” according to national polling.

By 2015, this figure had ballooned to 61% and further still to 77% in 2017. pic.twitter.com/qTBCQeBU1D

— KanekoaTheGreat (@KanekoaTheGreat) May 6, 2023

It has got to be the media that's largely to blame for fueling and fanning the flames of racial discord. The universities don't help either.

---

Yeah, it couldn't have been due to some purported increase in violent protests, white supremacy groups, strident political speech and politically motivated actions to restrict the rights of "those" people.

---

Help me understand this.

Are you suggesting that the climate is more racist now than in 1995? Are you suggesting that people are facing more racism now than in 1995?

If so, and if it were partly due to those things you mentioned, what is flaming such activities? Let's not go to the knee-jerk reaction of "Trump" and "MAGA" since those are symptoms and not the causes.

Is it possible, even theoretically, that race-based remedies and identity politics are also responsible for the racial divide? Is the solution part of the problem? If we are constantly identifying by race as a solution with mandated results, people will identify and create tribes based on race, would they not? No one voluntarily gives up their privilege. I would love for anyone here to identify how they have given up their privilege by giving up their job and their home that they didn't deserve because of the white privilege so that a more worthy person of color can rightfully have their job and send their kids to safer schools. No, no one does that. Instead, they alleviate their guilt by trying to say they are aligned without any real sacrifice so that they can be viewed as one of the good privileged folks.

We saw this with emasculation of men about a decade ago where some men were feigning feminism and almost self-hate to be seen as allies of the feminists. That led to a generation of emasculated men when women will always want strong, compassionate, respectful men and not sycophants. There is a danger of having a group of sycophants on racial issues who don't know how to have their own opinions with compassion instead of resorting to automatic apology and surrender, with opposite extremes being created in response. Again, real guilt will lead to real sacrifice like Alexis Ohanian demonstrated. Instead, most of the apology is in the form of empty words that people see through clearly, like Beto who turned himself from someone who can take down Cruz to the epitome of self-hate without real belief that would have manifested in real sacrifice.

As I stated, MAGA is not the problem. It is a symptom. When we have conclusions as arguments from both sides and those who don't agree put into a corner as insensitive or racists or lacking bandwidth, it will not make the disagreement go away. It will fester until a demagogue like Trump comes along and makes it OK to voice the discontent even more violently due to the prior shaming.

Open debate and potentially hurt feelings, and not name calling and shaming, are the beginning of the answer.

Anyone who has ever worked in negotiation and persuasion knows that the best way to get people over to your side of argument is find common grounds, find areas of agreement, listen and discuss. But we don't. We don't because our sense of self is not based on what we have done for the world but what we say we believe and how much we don't like the other side.

---

More racist? Yes, at least more openly and overtly.

I'm not sure we have much common ground if you see men supporting feminism and equal rights for women as men having self-hate.

---

I guess I was asking what you think has caused the climate to be more racist in your view despite all of the mandated social engineering supposedly designed to mitigate and alleviate racism in our society.

I absolute do not support feminism as expressed in the form of male hate as opposed to just equal rights for the sexes while recognizing the difference in the sexes. I believe the sexes are different, and I have taught my boys to be strong, respectful men who lead and protect the women in their lives. But if you have not seen the surrender from males claiming to be feminists in the prior decade with men in themselves and masculinity argued as inferior or toxic as opposed to just dishonorable behavior of some men, you are not being genuine. Chivalry is a good thing. I still train in mixed martial arts because I feel the need to be the protector while honoring and respecting my wife and daughters in all things. In my family, while my wife and I discuss and consult, if there is a disagreement (which is rare since I put her interest before mine), we both understand that one person has to make the final decision, and it will be me. I don't care what anyone else says. That has worked well in my family.

---

My opinion is that there are a lot of people who are tolerant as long as it doesn't threaten them in some way. They know that one gay guy at the office and make fun of his flamboyant clothes. They have that one black friend. Their gardener is Mexican and their doctor is Jewish. A Sikh runs the gas station. Their accountant is Korean. Maybe their boss is even a woman. Hey, America is about diversity, right? It bothers them sometimes but it's no big deal.

However, when they start to feel like they are losing power then their mere prejudice becomes bigotry. As I said earlier, I think Obama becoming President and appointing a lot of black people to positions of power changed the dynamic.

Combine that with people losing their jobs to immigrants (legal or otherwise) and women and minorities such as Asians being better educated and less willing to take **** as a result and uneducated white men saw that their role in the future of America is diminishing. Rather than go to school like their female counterparts they retreated to the havens of uneducated white males like the trades and the police force which is where they are still concentrated.

They think if they can send all the immigrants back, prevent people from obtaining an education, and control women they can level the playing field.

On 1995 they weren't a minority, but now they are and it will just get worse over time. The white neighborhood will tolerate a minority family living there but when it becomes 50% minorities they want to leave or else force the minorities out.

---

Interesting perspective.

A few thoughts and questions.

So, have the uneducated white men lost "power" and, therefore, are acting out? All this talk of white privilege is no longer relevant to them since they are now in the minority and have lost the power they once enjoyed?

All the uneducated white women, in response, went to college? So are women superior to men?

Educated white men like yourself (if you are white) are immune from feeling the same threat and therefore did not fall victim to the hateful response? Or are the folks here just a superior model and have no need for further sacrifice or have privilege they should surrender willingly to the rightful owners?

We seem to talk about others being the problem and being the ones who need to change. How about you and others who feel as you do? Is feeling enough or do you actually have to surrender what you believe were ill gotten? Just wondering the degree of conviction. Obviously, if you found out your kids stole your neighbor's bike, you would return it. How about what you obtained from the social construct that gave you your position in life?

Thanks for your thoughtful responses. All interesting takes even if I disagree.

---

Older white men still have most of the power in this country, but it is less than it used to be and society is actively trying to take it away from them. They view this as a bad thing instead of a positive thing because they are selfish. White privilege still exists but even the fact that we talk about it irritates them because they refuse to believe it.

I don't know if women are superior to men, but the stats say that in 1995 26% of men had a college degree and 20% of women did. Now men are up to 36% but women have doubled to 40%. That means a lot more competition in the workplace and in general. A lot of women might have a problem with you being the one to "make the final decision" in your family. Would that bother you?

I think educated people are less fearful, more tolerant, and more compassionate. Exposure to different beliefs and cultures in college is key but so is recognizing that in a true meritocracy the person who succeeds may not look like me or hold my same beliefs. White male Christians are taught that other races and religions are inferior as are women. In college it becomes evident that is not always true.

As for what I can do, it is not clear that surrendering what I have is the best course of action. I'm not wealthy and powerful. What I can do is work to change society and lift people up. As a white male I acknowledge I might have a bias in hiring decisions or other areas where I can impact people's lives financially and try to overcome that bias.

I try to treat people with respect and kindness. I try to set a good example for my own community and also for other communities by giving people the benefit of the doubt. That young black male at the bus stop is probably waiting for a bus and not waiting to rob me as I walk by so smile and say hello instead of move to the other side of the street like some people might. What I see is that the community is better and stronger if we are all more trusting and less fearful of each other. That happens when we make overt attempts to integrate communities by providing low income housing in wealthy areas for example.

Politically, I support candidates and policies that are inclusive. Anyone who demonizes disadvantaged minorities is either ignorant or pushing an agenda of hatred to further their own goals.

Interestingly, I do not support reparations. I think it is folly to try to ascertain who got screwed the most. We've all been screwed unless we are descendants of nobility. What we should do it make sure that stops now.

That said, I think the redistribution of wealth is not a bad idea to some extent. I think taxation is the best way to accomplish that. Even great fortunes can dwindle in just a few generations with the right tax policies in place. I am willing to pay more than my share of taxes to make sure that happens as long as the people with real wealth contribute along with me.

---

Good points.

The only thing I would object to is what Christians are taught. If anything, Christians are taught that race does not matter.
See Colossians 3:11; Romans 10:12. Also, Christians are not taught that men are superior to women. They are taught that we have different roles but that men are supposed to honor their wives and sacrifice their own needs for those of their wives. Not sure if your family has the father and mother roles interchangeable but I think it is not unusual for each to play a specific role in the family and for one person at the end to have the tie breaker.

---

I disagree on both of these points.

The Bible goes on and on about God's chosen people being Jewish. Sure, later Jesus comes along and changes that but there is still an element of racism in Judeo-Christianity. This is seen throughout its history from The Crusades to the missionaries traveling throughout Africa and the New World forcing whole populations into slavery in the name of Jesus.

How many Popes have been minorities? Some, yes, but there is a clear bias.

LDS, while not Christian, is derived from Christianity and has a terrible history of racism.

As for women, the Bible starts right off by teaching that God created Adam in his own image and then Eve only because Adam was bored and wanted a playmate. The Bible teaches that women should be subject to their husbands and could not even request a divorce.

Everything about Christianity is patriarchal. In many Christian denominations women cannot hold the highest roles in the Church.

Couldnt agree more.
Excellent post.

I see these "dynamics" play out time and time again with religious families here in the Diablo Valley.
The subservient role of the wife in some of these families is mind-boggling to me.
Not my cup of tea in the slightest.
But to each their own.

dimitrig said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

#2 In 2011, just 35% of white liberals thought racism in the United States was “a big problem,” according to national polling.

By 2015, this figure had ballooned to 61% and further still to 77% in 2017. pic.twitter.com/qTBCQeBU1D

— KanekoaTheGreat (@KanekoaTheGreat) May 6, 2023

It has got to be the media that's largely to blame for fueling and fanning the flames of racial discord. The universities don't help either.

---

Yeah, it couldn't have been due to some purported increase in violent protests, white supremacy groups, strident political speech and politically motivated actions to restrict the rights of "those" people.

---

Help me understand this.

Are you suggesting that the climate is more racist now than in 1995? Are you suggesting that people are facing more racism now than in 1995?

If so, and if it were partly due to those things you mentioned, what is flaming such activities? Let's not go to the knee-jerk reaction of "Trump" and "MAGA" since those are symptoms and not the causes.

Is it possible, even theoretically, that race-based remedies and identity politics are also responsible for the racial divide? Is the solution part of the problem? If we are constantly identifying by race as a solution with mandated results, people will identify and create tribes based on race, would they not? No one voluntarily gives up their privilege. I would love for anyone here to identify how they have given up their privilege by giving up their job and their home that they didn't deserve because of the white privilege so that a more worthy person of color can rightfully have their job and send their kids to safer schools. No, no one does that. Instead, they alleviate their guilt by trying to say they are aligned without any real sacrifice so that they can be viewed as one of the good privileged folks.

We saw this with emasculation of men about a decade ago where some men were feigning feminism and almost self-hate to be seen as allies of the feminists. That led to a generation of emasculated men when women will always want strong, compassionate, respectful men and not sycophants. There is a danger of having a group of sycophants on racial issues who don't know how to have their own opinions with compassion instead of resorting to automatic apology and surrender, with opposite extremes being created in response. Again, real guilt will lead to real sacrifice like Alexis Ohanian demonstrated. Instead, most of the apology is in the form of empty words that people see through clearly, like Beto who turned himself from someone who can take down Cruz to the epitome of self-hate without real belief that would have manifested in real sacrifice.

As I stated, MAGA is not the problem. It is a symptom. When we have conclusions as arguments from both sides and those who don't agree put into a corner as insensitive or racists or lacking bandwidth, it will not make the disagreement go away. It will fester until a demagogue like Trump comes along and makes it OK to voice the discontent even more violently due to the prior shaming.

Open debate and potentially hurt feelings, and not name calling and shaming, are the beginning of the answer.

Anyone who has ever worked in negotiation and persuasion knows that the best way to get people over to your side of argument is find common grounds, find areas of agreement, listen and discuss. But we don't. We don't because our sense of self is not based on what we have done for the world but what we say we believe and how much we don't like the other side.

---

More racist? Yes, at least more openly and overtly.

I'm not sure we have much common ground if you see men supporting feminism and equal rights for women as men having self-hate.

---

I guess I was asking what you think has caused the climate to be more racist in your view despite all of the mandated social engineering supposedly designed to mitigate and alleviate racism in our society.

I absolute do not support feminism as expressed in the form of male hate as opposed to just equal rights for the sexes while recognizing the difference in the sexes. I believe the sexes are different, and I have taught my boys to be strong, respectful men who lead and protect the women in their lives. But if you have not seen the surrender from males claiming to be feminists in the prior decade with men in themselves and masculinity argued as inferior or toxic as opposed to just dishonorable behavior of some men, you are not being genuine. Chivalry is a good thing. I still train in mixed martial arts because I feel the need to be the protector while honoring and respecting my wife and daughters in all things. In my family, while my wife and I discuss and consult, if there is a disagreement (which is rare since I put her interest before mine), we both understand that one person has to make the final decision, and it will be me. I don't care what anyone else says. That has worked well in my family.

---

My opinion is that there are a lot of people who are tolerant as long as it doesn't threaten them in some way. They know that one gay guy at the office and make fun of his flamboyant clothes. They have that one black friend. Their gardener is Mexican and their doctor is Jewish. A Sikh runs the gas station. Their accountant is Korean. Maybe their boss is even a woman. Hey, America is about diversity, right? It bothers them sometimes but it's no big deal.

However, when they start to feel like they are losing power then their mere prejudice becomes bigotry. As I said earlier, I think Obama becoming President and appointing a lot of black people to positions of power changed the dynamic.

Combine that with people losing their jobs to immigrants (legal or otherwise) and women and minorities such as Asians being better educated and less willing to take **** as a result and uneducated white men saw that their role in the future of America is diminishing. Rather than go to school like their female counterparts they retreated to the havens of uneducated white males like the trades and the police force which is where they are still concentrated.

They think if they can send all the immigrants back, prevent people from obtaining an education, and control women they can level the playing field.

On 1995 they weren't a minority, but now they are and it will just get worse over time. The white neighborhood will tolerate a minority family living there but when it becomes 50% minorities they want to leave or else force the minorities out.

---

Interesting perspective.

A few thoughts and questions.

So, have the uneducated white men lost "power" and, therefore, are acting out? All this talk of white privilege is no longer relevant to them since they are now in the minority and have lost the power they once enjoyed?

All the uneducated white women, in response, went to college? So are women superior to men?

Educated white men like yourself (if you are white) are immune from feeling the same threat and therefore did not fall victim to the hateful response? Or are the folks here just a superior model and have no need for further sacrifice or have privilege they should surrender willingly to the rightful owners?

We seem to talk about others being the problem and being the ones who need to change. How about you and others who feel as you do? Is feeling enough or do you actually have to surrender what you believe were ill gotten? Just wondering the degree of conviction. Obviously, if you found out your kids stole your neighbor's bike, you would return it. How about what you obtained from the social construct that gave you your position in life?

Thanks for your thoughtful responses. All interesting takes even if I disagree.

---

Older white men still have most of the power in this country, but it is less than it used to be and society is actively trying to take it away from them. They view this as a bad thing instead of a positive thing because they are selfish. White privilege still exists but even the fact that we talk about it irritates them because they refuse to believe it.

I don't know if women are superior to men, but the stats say that in 1995 26% of men had a college degree and 20% of women did. Now men are up to 36% but women have doubled to 40%. That means a lot more competition in the workplace and in general. A lot of women might have a problem with you being the one to "make the final decision" in your family. Would that bother you?

I think educated people are less fearful, more tolerant, and more compassionate. Exposure to different beliefs and cultures in college is key but so is recognizing that in a true meritocracy the person who succeeds may not look like me or hold my same beliefs. White male Christians are taught that other races and religions are inferior as are women. In college it becomes evident that is not always true.

As for what I can do, it is not clear that surrendering what I have is the best course of action. I'm not wealthy and powerful. What I can do is work to change society and lift people up. As a white male I acknowledge I might have a bias in hiring decisions or other areas where I can impact people's lives financially and try to overcome that bias.

I try to treat people with respect and kindness. I try to set a good example for my own community and also for other communities by giving people the benefit of the doubt. That young black male at the bus stop is probably waiting for a bus and not waiting to rob me as I walk by so smile and say hello instead of move to the other side of the street like some people might. What I see is that the community is better and stronger if we are all more trusting and less fearful of each other. That happens when we make overt attempts to integrate communities by providing low income housing in wealthy areas for example.

Politically, I support candidates and policies that are inclusive. Anyone who demonizes disadvantaged minorities is either ignorant or pushing an agenda of hatred to further their own goals.

Interestingly, I do not support reparations. I think it is folly to try to ascertain who got screwed the most. We've all been screwed unless we are descendants of nobility. What we should do it make sure that stops now.

That said, I think the redistribution of wealth is not a bad idea to some extent. I think taxation is the best way to accomplish that. Even great fortunes can dwindle in just a few generations with the right tax policies in place. I am willing to pay more than my share of taxes to make sure that happens as long as the people with real wealth contribute along with me.

---

Good points.

The only thing I would object to is what Christians are taught. If anything, Christians are taught that race does not matter.
See Colossians 3:11; Romans 10:12. Also, Christians are not taught that men are superior to women. They are taught that we have different roles but that men are supposed to honor their wives and sacrifice their own needs for those of their wives. Not sure if your family has the father and mother roles interchangeable but I think it is not unusual for each to play a specific role in the family and for one person at the end to have the tie breaker.

---

I disagree on both of these points.

The Bible goes on and on about God's chosen people being Jewish. Sure, later Jesus comes along and changes that but there is still an element of racism in Judeo-Christianity. This is seen throughout its history from The Crusades to the missionaries traveling throughout Africa and the New World forcing whole populations into slavery in the name of Jesus.

How many Popes have been minorities? Some, yes, but there is a clear bias.

LDS, while not Christian, is derived from Christianity and has a terrible history of racism.

As for women, the Bible starts right off by teaching that God created Adam in his own image and then Eve only because Adam was bored and wanted a playmate. The Bible teaches that women should be subject to their husbands and could not even request a divorce.

Everything about Christianity is patriarchal. In many Christian denominations women cannot hold the highest roles in the Church.

---

Sorry but I think you are coming from a place of misinformation. It's OK. I see that quite often here, whether about the law, finances or Christianity. I get that it is not our culture to speak as an expert only on things with actual knowledge, so no intended disrespect in my response.

You have to stop confusing people who claim to be Christians with Christianity itself.

The Christian faith is this. You don't have to believe it but you should at least know what it is. What you wrote is not found in the Bible. You may find the following to be ridiculous, which is your choice but at least know what Christianity is.

We were made in the image of God through granting us a soul (no other creature - including angels have souls) so that we can enjoy fellowship with Him and for Him to be our Lord. We rebelled and chose to put ourselves as lord. That is the original sin, rebellion against our Creator in favor of darkness, our own desires and the creation as opposed to the Creator. As Jesus said, we cannot be servant to the world and to God. We will always be an enemy to one and a friend to the other. We chose to be an enemy to our Creator. But even in Genesis, the Messiah was promised to deliver us from our sin despite our rebellion.

God chose Abraham (which was not earned) to be the start of the Jewish community from whom the Messiah would be delivered from the line of King David. This was confirmed time and time again by the prophets in the Old Testament. Because God chose the Jewish people as His people to deliver the Messiah, He separated His people from all the others. The Jews and the Christian's are completely aligned on this point.

However, because of our sinful heart, we could never earn our salvation. Our hearts, even the Christian's, are always dark because we love the world and the creation. But God, as perfectly holy, could not forgive and condone sin. It would minimize sin and minimize His holiness to just overlook sin and rebellion against His rule. So, Jesus, who has always been the Son in the Trinity living in perfect harmony with the Father and the Holy Spirit, came as fully God but also fully man to live the perfect life we could not live and took the punishment for our sins (which was not the crucifixion but separation from the Father (which is what we understand to be hell - complete darkness separated from God). Since we were all deserving, only one who was undeserving of the penalty of sin (God himself) could pay for our sin. But He was resurrected, demonstrating that our sins that were inputted to him had been fully paid and that we who believe were reconciled to Him. We can now approach Him without fear because Jesus' righteousness has been imputed to us and we can stand in front of His holiness. Splitting of the curtain described in the gospel upon Jesus' payment for our sin is the removal of the separation of us from God. We don't need an altar, prophets, or someone to talk to God on our behalf. We have a relation with Him now because God has given us our unearned righteousness of Jesus. The moment we put our faith in Jesus as our savior and Lord, we are saved forever. And the Holy Spirit continues to work in us to sanctify us despite our continued failings to bring us closer to be more like Jesus. We don't obey to earn our salvation but we try to obey the two greatest commandments in light of our salvation - love your Lord with all your with all your heart, with all your soul, all your mind and all your strength and love your neighbor as you love yourself. It is not about appearing holy but about having the right heart. And as is emphasized in the Bible, all Christian's of all background and all colors are all brothers and sisters in Christ. As such, it doesn't matter if one is a Jew or Greek or rich or poor (if you want to come from a place of knowledge - read the first two chapters of James). Christians often fail, and religious leadership position does not reflect holiness. Look at the parable of the Good Samaritan. Samaria was the enemy of Israel, and Samaritans were hated by the Jews. In the parable, all the religious leaders looked the other way when the victim was robbed and beaten. It was the hated Samaritan who cared for the victim as he would care for himself, giving up a month salary for that stranger to be treated, healed and housed.

I know your diatribe is coming from never actually having read the Bible but judging from bits and pieces you have read or heard. You can choose to believe or not, but you should at least choose to be informed from the actual source - Bible.

Meant to edit but instead quoted.

dajo9 said:

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calbear93 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

#2 In 2011, just 35% of white liberals thought racism in the United States was “a big problem,” according to national polling.

By 2015, this figure had ballooned to 61% and further still to 77% in 2017. pic.twitter.com/qTBCQeBU1D

— KanekoaTheGreat (@KanekoaTheGreat) May 6, 2023

It has got to be the media that's largely to blame for fueling and fanning the flames of racial discord. The universities don't help either.

---

Yeah, it couldn't have been due to some purported increase in violent protests, white supremacy groups, strident political speech and politically motivated actions to restrict the rights of "those" people.

---

Help me understand this.

Are you suggesting that the climate is more racist now than in 1995? Are you suggesting that people are facing more racism now than in 1995?

If so, and if it were partly due to those things you mentioned, what is flaming such activities? Let's not go to the knee-jerk reaction of "Trump" and "MAGA" since those are symptoms and not the causes.

Is it possible, even theoretically, that race-based remedies and identity politics are also responsible for the racial divide? Is the solution part of the problem? If we are constantly identifying by race as a solution with mandated results, people will identify and create tribes based on race, would they not? No one voluntarily gives up their privilege. I would love for anyone here to identify how they have given up their privilege by giving up their job and their home that they didn't deserve because of the white privilege so that a more worthy person of color can rightfully have their job and send their kids to safer schools. No, no one does that. Instead, they alleviate their guilt by trying to say they are aligned without any real sacrifice so that they can be viewed as one of the good privileged folks.

We saw this with emasculation of men about a decade ago where some men were feigning feminism and almost self-hate to be seen as allies of the feminists. That led to a generation of emasculated men when women will always want strong, compassionate, respectful men and not sycophants. There is a danger of having a group of sycophants on racial issues who don't know how to have their own opinions with compassion instead of resorting to automatic apology and surrender, with opposite extremes being created in response. Again, real guilt will lead to real sacrifice like Alexis Ohanian demonstrated. Instead, most of the apology is in the form of empty words that people see through clearly, like Beto who turned himself from someone who can take down Cruz to the epitome of self-hate without real belief that would have manifested in real sacrifice.

As I stated, MAGA is not the problem. It is a symptom. When we have conclusions as arguments from both sides and those who don't agree put into a corner as insensitive or racists or lacking bandwidth, it will not make the disagreement go away. It will fester until a demagogue like Trump comes along and makes it OK to voice the discontent even more violently due to the prior shaming.

Open debate and potentially hurt feelings, and not name calling and shaming, are the beginning of the answer.

Anyone who has ever worked in negotiation and persuasion knows that the best way to get people over to your side of argument is find common grounds, find areas of agreement, listen and discuss. But we don't. We don't because our sense of self is not based on what we have done for the world but what we say we believe and how much we don't like the other side.

---

More racist? Yes, at least more openly and overtly.

I'm not sure we have much common ground if you see men supporting feminism and equal rights for women as men having self-hate.

---

I absolute do not support feminism as expressed in the form of male hate as opposed to just equal rights for the sexes while recognizing the difference in the sexes.

In my family, while my wife and I discuss and consult, if there is a disagreement (which is rare since I put her interest before mine), we both understand that one person has to make the final decision, and it will be me.

---

These two statements are in conflict with one another. That is not equality even if it has worked well for your family.

I have not seen what you have seen in regard to the sexes. I think a lot of men are quick to take the easy way out and women or feminists are the last thing to blame. Addiction to video games. Addiction to drugs. Addiction to everything but hard "character building" work.

In regards to race, I tend to agree with dmitrig. White people are becoming a minority and people have had their eyes opened to that in the past decade. That freaks out a lot of white people and so they embraced identity politics and fell in love with white saviors like Trump.

---

I don't know what other people were writing about but I was referencing men needing to be strong, disciplined, protectors who are respectful, sacrificial and chivalrous to the women in their lives. That has nothing to do with men of weak character who are addicted to video games or drugs. We are talking about two different things. I don't disagree that many men have lost their ways and men have forgotten how to be men, instead thinking macho bravado makes a man a man. Lack of self control or integrity is not masculine in any generation. Not being a protector or provider but instead wasting away on video games or any other addiction instead of providing is not masculine. Asking the women to lead, provide or protect is not masculine. Not being respectful or honorable to women is not masculine. Acquiescing to everything a woman wants without standing up for your principles is not masculine. We are talking about different things, I believe.

I'm sure in your family, there are times when you and your wife, despite best efforts, cannot reach an agreement. Is there just a perpetual impasse? Who settles a dispute with your kids watching?

By the way, I don't think the far right fanatics are the only ones playing identity politics. Do you?

---

I am very fortunate in that my wife and I have few areas of disagreement so there is not a lot for me to draw from here. I attribute that to us marrying in our 30s and knowing from life experience our compatabilities.

We are both fundamentally hard working, savers, who put our kids first. I'm sure you can agree with me that it helps to have money and so we can avoid those disputes.

We moved recently and that process is probably indicative of our household. I raised the topic as something that would be good for the kids. Over a few months of mental processing my wife came around to the idea. I wasn't insistent or anything. We just occasionally talked about things as they came up. Once we both agreed we both went into motion.

I think we both strive to avoid disagreements in front of the kids. I am particularly sensitive to that and to shouting of any kind in the household. I tend to shout that down and end it rapidly. I think that is from growing up in a household of shouting and divorce. I can't stand it and from experience I can shout any of them (bringing kids in here) down in a heartbeat and bring disagreements down to a respectable volume.

My wife does more around the house than me but I'm not a complete slouch there either. If she asks for help with something I tend to do it and vice versa. I just don't have examples where we stood on opposite sides of an issue and couldn't find common ground.

---

That's great to read. I think it is important for kids to see two loving parents and feel the security in themselves that comes from being raised in a loving household with integrity.

Not all marriages are as compatible. And there will be disputes and disagreements, even in love. You can disagree but kids watching their fathers being emasculated may not be the healthiest environment. You didn't have to worry in your family but your case is not every case. While my wife and I are very compatible, we had disagreements in early stages of our parenthood. But I have tried to honor and love my wife every day of our marriage and she knows that I would gladly lay down my life for her, and in my heart, her interest comes before mine. When she makes clear to our kids and to me that I am the head of the family, it is with the knowledge that I will lead with love and sacrifice. It wasn't an act of submissiveness but an act of love and respect for me. It has worked well for my family just like your situation has worked well for yours. My wife is my best friend and my partner and we are still going strong, and our kids are strong, loving members of the community.

calbear93 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

#2 In 2011, just 35% of white liberals thought racism in the United States was “a big problem,” according to national polling.

By 2015, this figure had ballooned to 61% and further still to 77% in 2017. pic.twitter.com/qTBCQeBU1D

— KanekoaTheGreat (@KanekoaTheGreat) May 6, 2023

It has got to be the media that's largely to blame for fueling and fanning the flames of racial discord. The universities don't help either.

---

Yeah, it couldn't have been due to some purported increase in violent protests, white supremacy groups, strident political speech and politically motivated actions to restrict the rights of "those" people.

---

Help me understand this.

Are you suggesting that the climate is more racist now than in 1995? Are you suggesting that people are facing more racism now than in 1995?

If so, and if it were partly due to those things you mentioned, what is flaming such activities? Let's not go to the knee-jerk reaction of "Trump" and "MAGA" since those are symptoms and not the causes.

Is it possible, even theoretically, that race-based remedies and identity politics are also responsible for the racial divide? Is the solution part of the problem? If we are constantly identifying by race as a solution with mandated results, people will identify and create tribes based on race, would they not? No one voluntarily gives up their privilege. I would love for anyone here to identify how they have given up their privilege by giving up their job and their home that they didn't deserve because of the white privilege so that a more worthy person of color can rightfully have their job and send their kids to safer schools. No, no one does that. Instead, they alleviate their guilt by trying to say they are aligned without any real sacrifice so that they can be viewed as one of the good privileged folks.

We saw this with emasculation of men about a decade ago where some men were feigning feminism and almost self-hate to be seen as allies of the feminists. That led to a generation of emasculated men when women will always want strong, compassionate, respectful men and not sycophants. There is a danger of having a group of sycophants on racial issues who don't know how to have their own opinions with compassion instead of resorting to automatic apology and surrender, with opposite extremes being created in response. Again, real guilt will lead to real sacrifice like Alexis Ohanian demonstrated. Instead, most of the apology is in the form of empty words that people see through clearly, like Beto who turned himself from someone who can take down Cruz to the epitome of self-hate without real belief that would have manifested in real sacrifice.

As I stated, MAGA is not the problem. It is a symptom. When we have conclusions as arguments from both sides and those who don't agree put into a corner as insensitive or racists or lacking bandwidth, it will not make the disagreement go away. It will fester until a demagogue like Trump comes along and makes it OK to voice the discontent even more violently due to the prior shaming.

Open debate and potentially hurt feelings, and not name calling and shaming, are the beginning of the answer.

Anyone who has ever worked in negotiation and persuasion knows that the best way to get people over to your side of argument is find common grounds, find areas of agreement, listen and discuss. But we don't. We don't because our sense of self is not based on what we have done for the world but what we say we believe and how much we don't like the other side.

---

More racist? Yes, at least more openly and overtly.

I'm not sure we have much common ground if you see men supporting feminism and equal rights for women as men having self-hate.

---

I absolute do not support feminism as expressed in the form of male hate as opposed to just equal rights for the sexes while recognizing the difference in the sexes.

In my family, while my wife and I discuss and consult, if there is a disagreement (which is rare since I put her interest before mine), we both understand that one person has to make the final decision, and it will be me.

---

These two statements are in conflict with one another. That is not equality even if it has worked well for your family.

I have not seen what you have seen in regard to the sexes. I think a lot of men are quick to take the easy way out and women or feminists are the last thing to blame. Addiction to video games. Addiction to drugs. Addiction to everything but hard "character building" work.

In regards to race, I tend to agree with dmitrig. White people are becoming a minority and people have had their eyes opened to that in the past decade. That freaks out a lot of white people and so they embraced identity politics and fell in love with white saviors like Trump.

---

I don't know what other people were writing about but I was referencing men needing to be strong, disciplined, protectors who are respectful, sacrificial and chivalrous to the women in their lives. That has nothing to do with men of weak character who are addicted to video games or drugs. We are talking about two different things. I don't disagree that many men have lost their ways and men have forgotten how to be men, instead thinking macho bravado makes a man a man. Lack of self control or integrity is not masculine in any generation. Not being a protector or provider but instead wasting away on video games or any other addiction instead of providing is not masculine. Asking the women to lead, provide or protect is not masculine. Not being respectful or honorable to women is not masculine. Acquiescing to everything a woman wants without standing up for your principles is not masculine. We are talking about different things, I believe.

I'm sure in your family, there are times when you and your wife, despite best efforts, cannot reach an agreement. Is there just a perpetual impasse? Who settles a dispute with your kids watching?

By the way, I don't think the far right fanatics are the only ones playing identity politics. Do you?

---

I am very fortunate in that my wife and I have few areas of disagreement so there is not a lot for me to draw from here. I attribute that to us marrying in our 30s and knowing from life experience our compatabilities.

We are both fundamentally hard working, savers, who put our kids first. I'm sure you can agree with me that it helps to have money and so we can avoid those disputes.

We moved recently and that process is probably indicative of our household. I raised the topic as something that would be good for the kids. Over a few months of mental processing my wife came around to the idea. I wasn't insistent or anything. We just occasionally talked about things as they came up. Once we both agreed we both went into motion.

I think we both strive to avoid disagreements in front of the kids. I am particularly sensitive to that and to shouting of any kind in the household. I tend to shout that down and end it rapidly. I think that is from growing up in a household of shouting and divorce. I can't stand it and from experience I can shout any of them (bringing kids in here) down in a heartbeat and bring disagreements down to a respectable volume.

My wife does more around the house than me but I'm not a complete slouch there either. If she asks for help with something I tend to do it and vice versa. I just don't have examples where we stood on opposite sides of an issue and couldn't find common ground.

---

That's great to read. I think it is important for kids to see two loving parents and feel the security in themselves that comes from being raised in a loving household with integrity.

Not all marriages are as compatible. And there will be disputes and disagreements, even in love. You can disagree but kids watching their fathers being emasculated may not be the healthiest environment. You didn't have to worry in your family but your case is not every case. While my wife and I are very compatible, we had disagreements in early stages of our parenthood. But I have tried to honor and love my wife every day of our marriage and she knows that I would gladly lay down my life for her, and in my heart, her interest comes before mine. When she makes clear to our kids and to me that I am the head of the family, it is with the knowledge that I will lead with love and sacrifice. It wasn't an act of submissiveness but an act of love and respect for me. It has worked well for my family just like your situation has worked well for yours. My wife is my best friend and my partner and we are still going strong, and our kids are strong, loving members of the community.

---

Families doing what's best for them (within reason) is best. My only quibble is that, yes it is not good to see fathers emasculated. But I think it continues to be a far bigger problem in society to see women abused, mistreated, or diminished.

dajo9 said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

#2 In 2011, just 35% of white liberals thought racism in the United States was “a big problem,” according to national polling.

By 2015, this figure had ballooned to 61% and further still to 77% in 2017. pic.twitter.com/qTBCQeBU1D

— KanekoaTheGreat (@KanekoaTheGreat) May 6, 2023

It has got to be the media that's largely to blame for fueling and fanning the flames of racial discord. The universities don't help either.

---

Yeah, it couldn't have been due to some purported increase in violent protests, white supremacy groups, strident political speech and politically motivated actions to restrict the rights of "those" people.

---

Help me understand this.

Are you suggesting that the climate is more racist now than in 1995? Are you suggesting that people are facing more racism now than in 1995?

If so, and if it were partly due to those things you mentioned, what is flaming such activities? Let's not go to the knee-jerk reaction of "Trump" and "MAGA" since those are symptoms and not the causes.

Is it possible, even theoretically, that race-based remedies and identity politics are also responsible for the racial divide? Is the solution part of the problem? If we are constantly identifying by race as a solution with mandated results, people will identify and create tribes based on race, would they not? No one voluntarily gives up their privilege. I would love for anyone here to identify how they have given up their privilege by giving up their job and their home that they didn't deserve because of the white privilege so that a more worthy person of color can rightfully have their job and send their kids to safer schools. No, no one does that. Instead, they alleviate their guilt by trying to say they are aligned without any real sacrifice so that they can be viewed as one of the good privileged folks.

We saw this with emasculation of men about a decade ago where some men were feigning feminism and almost self-hate to be seen as allies of the feminists. That led to a generation of emasculated men when women will always want strong, compassionate, respectful men and not sycophants. There is a danger of having a group of sycophants on racial issues who don't know how to have their own opinions with compassion instead of resorting to automatic apology and surrender, with opposite extremes being created in response. Again, real guilt will lead to real sacrifice like Alexis Ohanian demonstrated. Instead, most of the apology is in the form of empty words that people see through clearly, like Beto who turned himself from someone who can take down Cruz to the epitome of self-hate without real belief that would have manifested in real sacrifice.

As I stated, MAGA is not the problem. It is a symptom. When we have conclusions as arguments from both sides and those who don't agree put into a corner as insensitive or racists or lacking bandwidth, it will not make the disagreement go away. It will fester until a demagogue like Trump comes along and makes it OK to voice the discontent even more violently due to the prior shaming.

Open debate and potentially hurt feelings, and not name calling and shaming, are the beginning of the answer.

Anyone who has ever worked in negotiation and persuasion knows that the best way to get people over to your side of argument is find common grounds, find areas of agreement, listen and discuss. But we don't. We don't because our sense of self is not based on what we have done for the world but what we say we believe and how much we don't like the other side.

---

More racist? Yes, at least more openly and overtly.

I'm not sure we have much common ground if you see men supporting feminism and equal rights for women as men having self-hate.

---

I absolute do not support feminism as expressed in the form of male hate as opposed to just equal rights for the sexes while recognizing the difference in the sexes.

In my family, while my wife and I discuss and consult, if there is a disagreement (which is rare since I put her interest before mine), we both understand that one person has to make the final decision, and it will be me.

---

These two statements are in conflict with one another. That is not equality even if it has worked well for your family.

I have not seen what you have seen in regard to the sexes. I think a lot of men are quick to take the easy way out and women or feminists are the last thing to blame. Addiction to video games. Addiction to drugs. Addiction to everything but hard "character building" work.

In regards to race, I tend to agree with dmitrig. White people are becoming a minority and people have had their eyes opened to that in the past decade. That freaks out a lot of white people and so they embraced identity politics and fell in love with white saviors like Trump.

---

I don't know what other people were writing about but I was referencing men needing to be strong, disciplined, protectors who are respectful, sacrificial and chivalrous to the women in their lives. That has nothing to do with men of weak character who are addicted to video games or drugs. We are talking about two different things. I don't disagree that many men have lost their ways and men have forgotten how to be men, instead thinking macho bravado makes a man a man. Lack of self control or integrity is not masculine in any generation. Not being a protector or provider but instead wasting away on video games or any other addiction instead of providing is not masculine. Asking the women to lead, provide or protect is not masculine. Not being respectful or honorable to women is not masculine. Acquiescing to everything a woman wants without standing up for your principles is not masculine. We are talking about different things, I believe.

I'm sure in your family, there are times when you and your wife, despite best efforts, cannot reach an agreement. Is there just a perpetual impasse? Who settles a dispute with your kids watching?

By the way, I don't think the far right fanatics are the only ones playing identity politics. Do you?

---

I am very fortunate in that my wife and I have few areas of disagreement so there is not a lot for me to draw from here. I attribute that to us marrying in our 30s and knowing from life experience our compatabilities.

We are both fundamentally hard working, savers, who put our kids first. I'm sure you can agree with me that it helps to have money and so we can avoid those disputes.

We moved recently and that process is probably indicative of our household. I raised the topic as something that would be good for the kids. Over a few months of mental processing my wife came around to the idea. I wasn't insistent or anything. We just occasionally talked about things as they came up. Once we both agreed we both went into motion.

I think we both strive to avoid disagreements in front of the kids. I am particularly sensitive to that and to shouting of any kind in the household. I tend to shout that down and end it rapidly. I think that is from growing up in a household of shouting and divorce. I can't stand it and from experience I can shout any of them (bringing kids in here) down in a heartbeat and bring disagreements down to a respectable volume.

My wife does more around the house than me but I'm not a complete slouch there either. If she asks for help with something I tend to do it and vice versa. I just don't have examples where we stood on opposite sides of an issue and couldn't find common ground.

---

That's great to read. I think it is important for kids to see two loving parents and feel the security in themselves that comes from being raised in a loving household with integrity.

Not all marriages are as compatible. And there will be disputes and disagreements, even in love. You can disagree but kids watching their fathers being emasculated may not be the healthiest environment. You didn't have to worry in your family but your case is not every case. While my wife and I are very compatible, we had disagreements in early stages of our parenthood. But I have tried to honor and love my wife every day of our marriage and she knows that I would gladly lay down my life for her, and in my heart, her interest comes before mine. When she makes clear to our kids and to me that I am the head of the family, it is with the knowledge that I will lead with love and sacrifice. It wasn't an act of submissiveness but an act of love and respect for me. It has worked well for my family just like your situation has worked well for yours. My wife is my best friend and my partner and we are still going strong, and our kids are strong, loving members of the community.

---

Families doing what's best for them (within reason) is best. My only quibble is that, yes it is not good to see fathers emasculated. But I think it continues to be a far bigger problem in society to see women abused, mistreated, or diminished.

---

I think not mistreating and not diminishing women are just table stakes to treating women with respect and honor. But our obligations go far beyond that. It is about being providers, protectors, and putting their interest before ours. So we agree on the basics.

Notice the difference between those who come to till the soil and those who come to eat the harvest.

— Native Son (@SonMemphis) May 8, 2023

calbear93 said:

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dajo9 said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

#2 In 2011, just 35% of white liberals thought racism in the United States was “a big problem,” according to national polling.

By 2015, this figure had ballooned to 61% and further still to 77% in 2017. pic.twitter.com/qTBCQeBU1D

— KanekoaTheGreat (@KanekoaTheGreat) May 6, 2023

It has got to be the media that's largely to blame for fueling and fanning the flames of racial discord. The universities don't help either.

---

Yeah, it couldn't have been due to some purported increase in violent protests, white supremacy groups, strident political speech and politically motivated actions to restrict the rights of "those" people.

---

Help me understand this.

Are you suggesting that the climate is more racist now than in 1995? Are you suggesting that people are facing more racism now than in 1995?

If so, and if it were partly due to those things you mentioned, what is flaming such activities? Let's not go to the knee-jerk reaction of "Trump" and "MAGA" since those are symptoms and not the causes.

Is it possible, even theoretically, that race-based remedies and identity politics are also responsible for the racial divide? Is the solution part of the problem? If we are constantly identifying by race as a solution with mandated results, people will identify and create tribes based on race, would they not? No one voluntarily gives up their privilege. I would love for anyone here to identify how they have given up their privilege by giving up their job and their home that they didn't deserve because of the white privilege so that a more worthy person of color can rightfully have their job and send their kids to safer schools. No, no one does that. Instead, they alleviate their guilt by trying to say they are aligned without any real sacrifice so that they can be viewed as one of the good privileged folks.

We saw this with emasculation of men about a decade ago where some men were feigning feminism and almost self-hate to be seen as allies of the feminists. That led to a generation of emasculated men when women will always want strong, compassionate, respectful men and not sycophants. There is a danger of having a group of sycophants on racial issues who don't know how to have their own opinions with compassion instead of resorting to automatic apology and surrender, with opposite extremes being created in response. Again, real guilt will lead to real sacrifice like Alexis Ohanian demonstrated. Instead, most of the apology is in the form of empty words that people see through clearly, like Beto who turned himself from someone who can take down Cruz to the epitome of self-hate without real belief that would have manifested in real sacrifice.

As I stated, MAGA is not the problem. It is a symptom. When we have conclusions as arguments from both sides and those who don't agree put into a corner as insensitive or racists or lacking bandwidth, it will not make the disagreement go away. It will fester until a demagogue like Trump comes along and makes it OK to voice the discontent even more violently due to the prior shaming.

Open debate and potentially hurt feelings, and not name calling and shaming, are the beginning of the answer.

Anyone who has ever worked in negotiation and persuasion knows that the best way to get people over to your side of argument is find common grounds, find areas of agreement, listen and discuss. But we don't. We don't because our sense of self is not based on what we have done for the world but what we say we believe and how much we don't like the other side.

---

More racist? Yes, at least more openly and overtly.

I'm not sure we have much common ground if you see men supporting feminism and equal rights for women as men having self-hate.

---

I absolute do not support feminism as expressed in the form of male hate as opposed to just equal rights for the sexes while recognizing the difference in the sexes.

In my family, while my wife and I discuss and consult, if there is a disagreement (which is rare since I put her interest before mine), we both understand that one person has to make the final decision, and it will be me.

---

These two statements are in conflict with one another. That is not equality even if it has worked well for your family.

I have not seen what you have seen in regard to the sexes. I think a lot of men are quick to take the easy way out and women or feminists are the last thing to blame. Addiction to video games. Addiction to drugs. Addiction to everything but hard "character building" work.

In regards to race, I tend to agree with dmitrig. White people are becoming a minority and people have had their eyes opened to that in the past decade. That freaks out a lot of white people and so they embraced identity politics and fell in love with white saviors like Trump.

---

I don't know what other people were writing about but I was referencing men needing to be strong, disciplined, protectors who are respectful, sacrificial and chivalrous to the women in their lives. That has nothing to do with men of weak character who are addicted to video games or drugs. We are talking about two different things. I don't disagree that many men have lost their ways and men have forgotten how to be men, instead thinking macho bravado makes a man a man. Lack of self control or integrity is not masculine in any generation. Not being a protector or provider but instead wasting away on video games or any other addiction instead of providing is not masculine. Asking the women to lead, provide or protect is not masculine. Not being respectful or honorable to women is not masculine. Acquiescing to everything a woman wants without standing up for your principles is not masculine. We are talking about different things, I believe.

I'm sure in your family, there are times when you and your wife, despite best efforts, cannot reach an agreement. Is there just a perpetual impasse? Who settles a dispute with your kids watching?

By the way, I don't think the far right fanatics are the only ones playing identity politics. Do you?

---

I am very fortunate in that my wife and I have few areas of disagreement so there is not a lot for me to draw from here. I attribute that to us marrying in our 30s and knowing from life experience our compatabilities.

We are both fundamentally hard working, savers, who put our kids first. I'm sure you can agree with me that it helps to have money and so we can avoid those disputes.

We moved recently and that process is probably indicative of our household. I raised the topic as something that would be good for the kids. Over a few months of mental processing my wife came around to the idea. I wasn't insistent or anything. We just occasionally talked about things as they came up. Once we both agreed we both went into motion.

I think we both strive to avoid disagreements in front of the kids. I am particularly sensitive to that and to shouting of any kind in the household. I tend to shout that down and end it rapidly. I think that is from growing up in a household of shouting and divorce. I can't stand it and from experience I can shout any of them (bringing kids in here) down in a heartbeat and bring disagreements down to a respectable volume.

My wife does more around the house than me but I'm not a complete slouch there either. If she asks for help with something I tend to do it and vice versa. I just don't have examples where we stood on opposite sides of an issue and couldn't find common ground.

---

That's great to read. I think it is important for kids to see two loving parents and feel the security in themselves that comes from being raised in a loving household with integrity.

Not all marriages are as compatible. And there will be disputes and disagreements, even in love. You can disagree but kids watching their fathers being emasculated may not be the healthiest environment. You didn't have to worry in your family but your case is not every case. While my wife and I are very compatible, we had disagreements in early stages of our parenthood. But I have tried to honor and love my wife every day of our marriage and she knows that I would gladly lay down my life for her, and in my heart, her interest comes before mine. When she makes clear to our kids and to me that I am the head of the family, it is with the knowledge that I will lead with love and sacrifice. It wasn't an act of submissiveness but an act of love and respect for me. It has worked well for my family just like your situation has worked well for yours. My wife is my best friend and my partner and we are still going strong, and our kids are strong, loving members of the community.

---

Families doing what's best for them (within reason) is best. My only quibble is that, yes it is not good to see fathers emasculated. But I think it continues to be a far bigger problem in society to see women abused, mistreated, or diminished.

---

I think not mistreating and not diminishing women are just table stakes to treating women with respect and honor. But our obligations go far beyond that. It is about being providers, protectors, and putting their interest before ours. So we agree on the basics.

---

I'm not sure we do but that's ok. My wife doesn't need a provider and has never looked to me to provide for her. We both earn enough to be in the upper percentiles individually but she has always earned more than me. We both put our family's interest before ourselves. Protector? Yes that would be me if push came to shove. When there is a noise in the house I'm the one that gets up with the flashlight. So, I guess we agree on that.

I think it's important for both spouses to contribute. How that contribution is defined is less important. Being near New York, I've seen many high earning men lose their lucrative Wall Street careers in their 40s. The marriages that survived tend to be the ones in which the man learned to contribute around the house.

dajo9 said:

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calbear93 said:

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dajo9 said:

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calbear93 said:

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dajo9 said:

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calbear93 said:

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dajo9 said:

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calbear93 said:

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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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calbear93 said:

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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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BearHunter said:

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#2 In 2011, just 35% of white liberals thought racism in the United States was “a big problem,” according to national polling.

By 2015, this figure had ballooned to 61% and further still to 77% in 2017. pic.twitter.com/qTBCQeBU1D

— KanekoaTheGreat (@KanekoaTheGreat) May 6, 2023

It has got to be the media that's largely to blame for fueling and fanning the flames of racial discord. The universities don't help either.

---

Yeah, it couldn't have been due to some purported increase in violent protests, white supremacy groups, strident political speech and politically motivated actions to restrict the rights of "those" people.

---

Help me understand this.

Are you suggesting that the climate is more racist now than in 1995? Are you suggesting that people are facing more racism now than in 1995?

If so, and if it were partly due to those things you mentioned, what is flaming such activities? Let's not go to the knee-jerk reaction of "Trump" and "MAGA" since those are symptoms and not the causes.

Is it possible, even theoretically, that race-based remedies and identity politics are also responsible for the racial divide? Is the solution part of the problem? If we are constantly identifying by race as a solution with mandated results, people will identify and create tribes based on race, would they not? No one voluntarily gives up their privilege. I would love for anyone here to identify how they have given up their privilege by giving up their job and their home that they didn't deserve because of the white privilege so that a more worthy person of color can rightfully have their job and send their kids to safer schools. No, no one does that. Instead, they alleviate their guilt by trying to say they are aligned without any real sacrifice so that they can be viewed as one of the good privileged folks.

We saw this with emasculation of men about a decade ago where some men were feigning feminism and almost self-hate to be seen as allies of the feminists. That led to a generation of emasculated men when women will always want strong, compassionate, respectful men and not sycophants. There is a danger of having a group of sycophants on racial issues who don't know how to have their own opinions with compassion instead of resorting to automatic apology and surrender, with opposite extremes being created in response. Again, real guilt will lead to real sacrifice like Alexis Ohanian demonstrated. Instead, most of the apology is in the form of empty words that people see through clearly, like Beto who turned himself from someone who can take down Cruz to the epitome of self-hate without real belief that would have manifested in real sacrifice.

As I stated, MAGA is not the problem. It is a symptom. When we have conclusions as arguments from both sides and those who don't agree put into a corner as insensitive or racists or lacking bandwidth, it will not make the disagreement go away. It will fester until a demagogue like Trump comes along and makes it OK to voice the discontent even more violently due to the prior shaming.

Open debate and potentially hurt feelings, and not name calling and shaming, are the beginning of the answer.

Anyone who has ever worked in negotiation and persuasion knows that the best way to get people over to your side of argument is find common grounds, find areas of agreement, listen and discuss. But we don't. We don't because our sense of self is not based on what we have done for the world but what we say we believe and how much we don't like the other side.

---

More racist? Yes, at least more openly and overtly.

I'm not sure we have much common ground if you see men supporting feminism and equal rights for women as men having self-hate.

---

I absolute do not support feminism as expressed in the form of male hate as opposed to just equal rights for the sexes while recognizing the difference in the sexes.

In my family, while my wife and I discuss and consult, if there is a disagreement (which is rare since I put her interest before mine), we both understand that one person has to make the final decision, and it will be me.

---

These two statements are in conflict with one another. That is not equality even if it has worked well for your family.

I have not seen what you have seen in regard to the sexes. I think a lot of men are quick to take the easy way out and women or feminists are the last thing to blame. Addiction to video games. Addiction to drugs. Addiction to everything but hard "character building" work.

In regards to race, I tend to agree with dmitrig. White people are becoming a minority and people have had their eyes opened to that in the past decade. That freaks out a lot of white people and so they embraced identity politics and fell in love with white saviors like Trump.

---

I don't know what other people were writing about but I was referencing men needing to be strong, disciplined, protectors who are respectful, sacrificial and chivalrous to the women in their lives. That has nothing to do with men of weak character who are addicted to video games or drugs. We are talking about two different things. I don't disagree that many men have lost their ways and men have forgotten how to be men, instead thinking macho bravado makes a man a man. Lack of self control or integrity is not masculine in any generation. Not being a protector or provider but instead wasting away on video games or any other addiction instead of providing is not masculine. Asking the women to lead, provide or protect is not masculine. Not being respectful or honorable to women is not masculine. Acquiescing to everything a woman wants without standing up for your principles is not masculine. We are talking about different things, I believe.

I'm sure in your family, there are times when you and your wife, despite best efforts, cannot reach an agreement. Is there just a perpetual impasse? Who settles a dispute with your kids watching?

By the way, I don't think the far right fanatics are the only ones playing identity politics. Do you?

---

I am very fortunate in that my wife and I have few areas of disagreement so there is not a lot for me to draw from here. I attribute that to us marrying in our 30s and knowing from life experience our compatabilities.

We are both fundamentally hard working, savers, who put our kids first. I'm sure you can agree with me that it helps to have money and so we can avoid those disputes.

We moved recently and that process is probably indicative of our household. I raised the topic as something that would be good for the kids. Over a few months of mental processing my wife came around to the idea. I wasn't insistent or anything. We just occasionally talked about things as they came up. Once we both agreed we both went into motion.

I think we both strive to avoid disagreements in front of the kids. I am particularly sensitive to that and to shouting of any kind in the household. I tend to shout that down and end it rapidly. I think that is from growing up in a household of shouting and divorce. I can't stand it and from experience I can shout any of them (bringing kids in here) down in a heartbeat and bring disagreements down to a respectable volume.

My wife does more around the house than me but I'm not a complete slouch there either. If she asks for help with something I tend to do it and vice versa. I just don't have examples where we stood on opposite sides of an issue and couldn't find common ground.

---

That's great to read. I think it is important for kids to see two loving parents and feel the security in themselves that comes from being raised in a loving household with integrity.

Not all marriages are as compatible. And there will be disputes and disagreements, even in love. You can disagree but kids watching their fathers being emasculated may not be the healthiest environment. You didn't have to worry in your family but your case is not every case. While my wife and I are very compatible, we had disagreements in early stages of our parenthood. But I have tried to honor and love my wife every day of our marriage and she knows that I would gladly lay down my life for her, and in my heart, her interest comes before mine. When she makes clear to our kids and to me that I am the head of the family, it is with the knowledge that I will lead with love and sacrifice. It wasn't an act of submissiveness but an act of love and respect for me. It has worked well for my family just like your situation has worked well for yours. My wife is my best friend and my partner and we are still going strong, and our kids are strong, loving members of the community.

---

Families doing what's best for them (within reason) is best. My only quibble is that, yes it is not good to see fathers emasculated. But I think it continues to be a far bigger problem in society to see women abused, mistreated, or diminished.

---

I think not mistreating and not diminishing women are just table stakes to treating women with respect and honor. But our obligations go far beyond that. It is about being providers, protectors, and putting their interest before ours. So we agree on the basics.

---

I'm not sure we do but that's ok. My wife doesn't need a provider and has never looked to me to provide for her. We both earn enough to be in the upper percentiles individually but she has always earned more than me. We both put our family's interest before ourselves. Protector? Yes that would be me if push came to shove. When there is a noise in the house I'm the one that gets up with the flashlight. So, I guess we agree on that.

I think it's important for both spouses to contribute. How that contribution is defined is less important. Being near New York, I've seen many high earning men lose their lucrative Wall Street careers in their 40s. The marriages that survived tend to be the ones in which the man learned to contribute around the house.

---

Maybe I should clarify. By basics, I mean real men do not diminish or mistreat women but instead respect and honor women. Not honoring women, including objectifying them or diminishing them, are not masculine qualities.

We have too many boys who are hooked on video games, drugs, porn, and one night stands. It's like eating junk food and processed food every single meal when God intended something so much better.

Where you and I disagree is our view on the role of men and women beyond that. I still think the healthiest families are those where the men are the providers and the kids have a nurturing mom at home. That's my opinion after having grown up as a latch key kid. My wife was a professional as well but it was an easy decision for us that we wanted our kids to be raised by a parent and not a live-in nanny. We still had help but our kids always had their mom involved in school, picking them up, helping them with school work, and driving them to activities, in addition to feeding them. When we were young parents, I did make sure to be understanding that my wife needed long grown up conversations even when I was tired. I recognized that she missed the grown up conversations at her prior firm. Now, we just do everything together.

calbear93 said:

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Sorry but I think you are coming from a place of misinformation. It's OK. I see that quite often here, whether about the law, finances or Christianity. I get that it is not our culture to speak as an expert only on things with actual knowledge, so no intended disrespect in my response.

You have to stop confusing people who claim to be Christians with Christianity itself.

The Christian faith is this. You don't have to believe it but you should at least know what it is. What you wrote is not found in the Bible. You may find the following to be ridiculous, which is your choice but at least know what Christianity is.

We were made in the image of God through granting us a soul (no other creature - including angels have souls) so that we can enjoy fellowship with Him and for Him to be our Lord. We rebelled and chose to put ourselves as lord. That is the original sin, rebellion against our Creator in favor of darkness, our own desires and the creation as opposed to the Creator. As Jesus said, we cannot be servant to the world and to God. We will always be an enemy to one and a friend to the other. We chose to be an enemy to our Creator. But even in Genesis, the Messiah was promised to deliver us from our sin despite our rebellion.

God chose Abraham (which was not earned) to be the start of the Jewish community from whom the Messiah would be delivered from the line of King David. This was confirmed time and time again by the prophets in the Old Testament. Because God chose the Jewish people as His people to deliver the Messiah, He separated His people from all the others. The Jews and the Christian's are completely aligned on this point.

However, because of our sinful heart, we could never earn our salvation. Our hearts, even the Christian's, are always dark because we love the world and the creation. But God, as perfectly holy, could not forgive and condone sin. It would minimize sin and minimize His holiness to just overlook sin and rebellion against His rule. So, Jesus, who has always been the Son in the Trinity living in perfect harmony with the Father and the Holy Spirit, came as fully God but also fully man to live the perfect life we could not live and took the punishment for our sins (which was not the crucifixion but separation from the Father (which is what we understand to be hell - complete darkness separated from God). Since we were all deserving, only one who was undeserving of the penalty of sin (God himself) could pay for our sin. But He was resurrected, demonstrating that our sins that were inputted to him had been fully paid and that we who believe were reconciled to Him. We can now approach Him without fear because Jesus' righteousness has been imputed to us and we can stand in front of His holiness. Splitting of the curtain described in the gospel upon Jesus' payment for our sin is the removal of the separation of us from God. We don't need an altar, prophets, or someone to talk to God on our behalf. We have a relation with Him now because God has given us our unearned righteousness of Jesus. The moment we put our faith in Jesus as our savior and Lord, we are saved forever. And the Holy Spirit continues to work in us to sanctify us despite our continued failings to bring us closer to be more like Jesus. We don't obey to earn our salvation but we try to obey the two greatest commandments in light of our salvation - love your Lord with all your with all your heart, with all your soul, all your mind and all your strength and love your neighbor as you love yourself. It is not about appearing holy but about having the right heart. And as is emphasized in the Bible, all Christian's of all background and all colors are all brothers and sisters in Christ. As such, it doesn't matter if one is a Jew or Greek or rich or poor (if you want to come from a place of knowledge - read the first two chapters of James). Christians often fail, and religious leadership position does not reflect holiness. Look at the parable of the Good Samaritan. Samaria was the enemy of Israel, and Samaritans were hated by the Jews. In the parable, all the religious leaders looked the other way when the victim was robbed and beaten. It was the hated Samaritan who cared for the victim as he would care for himself, giving up a month salary for that stranger to be treated, healed and housed.

I know your diatribe is coming from never actually having read the Bible but judging from bits and pieces you have read or heard. You can choose to believe or not, but you should at least choose to be informed from the actual source - Bible.

---

I am super busy right now and quite frankly discussions about religion really bore me even in the best of times so I am not going to give this a proper response so forgive me for that.

Let me just say that I spent 9 of my 11 years of elementary, middle, and high school education attending religious (Christian) schools which required attendance at mass/chapel along with Bible study. My parents also put me in one horrendous year of catechism, which was after church on Sundays.

So you are very wrong when you say that I am coming from a place of misinformation. I read the entire Bible cover to cover in high school just to say that I did it. Man was that difficult to get through at times. I don't recommend anyone do that. My high school curriculum required one course each year to be a Bible study class where we dove deep into it, sometimes even going into the original Greek or Hebrew and setting historical contexts to make more sense of things. The Bible has a lot of symbolism. It also has a few contradictions that were fun to debate and speculate about.

I am not a religious person. I go to church on Easter and that's about it - and not every Easter either. I recognize the value in religion, although I am skeptical of people who call themselves Christians because most of them are hypocrites. That isn't directed at you, but just my overall experience. In fact, my parents quit going to church because they realized that two types of people comprised most of the clique that frequently attended: gossips there to socialize and evildoers afraid of going to hell. The really nasty people doing horrible things like cheating on their spouses, stealing, and sexually abusing children attended church regularly. It wasn't a great group of people to hang around and they thought attending regularly and donating a lot of money to the church would get them into heaven.

The only thing worse were some of the Protestant churches which had some real kooks attending. Prophets, faith healers, speaking in tongues. It's all really disturbing what some of those people get up to. I guess mainstream Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Methodists, and the like are fine but the Pentecostals, the Baptists, Adventists... there are some real weirdos out there. Catholic Church is closest to what I am most comfortable with as my regular church was Eastern Orthodox, but I have been to them all - or at least been proselytized to by them all when they came to lead chapel at my non-denominational schools.

Okay, so that said I have to disagree with you. Christianity is patriarchal at its core. God is male. Jesus was a man. Adam was created first. All the most important figures other than Mary are men and Mary - as revered as she is - is hardly mentioned at all. Esther? Please.

The Bible is full of instructions for wives to submit to their husbands.

"But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man [...] For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man" (I Corinthians 11:3)

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord" (Ephesians 5:22)

"As the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything" (Ephesians 5:24)

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord" (Colossians 3:18)

"The aged women [are to] … teach the young women to be … obedient to their own husbands" (Titus 2:3-5)

"Ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands" (1 Peter 3:1)

Spin that any way you want to, but that is what it says and it is what good Christian women are taught to do.

As for racism, that isn't really in the Bible except for the whole thing about Jews being God's people, the constant wars killing everyone else - sometimes genocidal - but maybe that's not a racial thing. Certainly Jesus did not condone any of that and neither did the early church teach that.

However, the Church evolved along a different path.

"While it may seem obvious to mainstream white Christians today that slavery, segregation and overt declarations of white supremacy are antithetical to the teachings of Jesus, such a conviction is, in fact, a recent development for most white American Christians and churches, both Protestant and Catholic."

(Source: Racism among white Christians is higher than among the nonreligious. That's no coincidence.)

dimitrig said:

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calbear93 said:

---

Sorry but I think you are coming from a place of misinformation. It's OK. I see that quite often here, whether about the law, finances or Christianity. I get that it is not our culture to speak as an expert only on things with actual knowledge, so no intended disrespect in my response.

You have to stop confusing people who claim to be Christians with Christianity itself.

The Christian faith is this. You don't have to believe it but you should at least know what it is. What you wrote is not found in the Bible. You may find the following to be ridiculous, which is your choice but at least know what Christianity is.

We were made in the image of God through granting us a soul (no other creature - including angels have souls) so that we can enjoy fellowship with Him and for Him to be our Lord. We rebelled and chose to put ourselves as lord. That is the original sin, rebellion against our Creator in favor of darkness, our own desires and the creation as opposed to the Creator. As Jesus said, we cannot be servant to the world and to God. We will always be an enemy to one and a friend to the other. We chose to be an enemy to our Creator. But even in Genesis, the Messiah was promised to deliver us from our sin despite our rebellion.

God chose Abraham (which was not earned) to be the start of the Jewish community from whom the Messiah would be delivered from the line of King David. This was confirmed time and time again by the prophets in the Old Testament. Because God chose the Jewish people as His people to deliver the Messiah, He separated His people from all the others. The Jews and the Christian's are completely aligned on this point.

However, because of our sinful heart, we could never earn our salvation. Our hearts, even the Christian's, are always dark because we love the world and the creation. But God, as perfectly holy, could not forgive and condone sin. It would minimize sin and minimize His holiness to just overlook sin and rebellion against His rule. So, Jesus, who has always been the Son in the Trinity living in perfect harmony with the Father and the Holy Spirit, came as fully God but also fully man to live the perfect life we could not live and took the punishment for our sins (which was not the crucifixion but separation from the Father (which is what we understand to be hell - complete darkness separated from God). Since we were all deserving, only one who was undeserving of the penalty of sin (God himself) could pay for our sin. But He was resurrected, demonstrating that our sins that were inputted to him had been fully paid and that we who believe were reconciled to Him. We can now approach Him without fear because Jesus' righteousness has been imputed to us and we can stand in front of His holiness. Splitting of the curtain described in the gospel upon Jesus' payment for our sin is the removal of the separation of us from God. We don't need an altar, prophets, or someone to talk to God on our behalf. We have a relation with Him now because God has given us our unearned righteousness of Jesus. The moment we put our faith in Jesus as our savior and Lord, we are saved forever. And the Holy Spirit continues to work in us to sanctify us despite our continued failings to bring us closer to be more like Jesus. We don't obey to earn our salvation but we try to obey the two greatest commandments in light of our salvation - love your Lord with all your with all your heart, with all your soul, all your mind and all your strength and love your neighbor as you love yourself. It is not about appearing holy but about having the right heart. And as is emphasized in the Bible, all Christian's of all background and all colors are all brothers and sisters in Christ. As such, it doesn't matter if one is a Jew or Greek or rich or poor (if you want to come from a place of knowledge - read the first two chapters of James). Christians often fail, and religious leadership position does not reflect holiness. Look at the parable of the Good Samaritan. Samaria was the enemy of Israel, and Samaritans were hated by the Jews. In the parable, all the religious leaders looked the other way when the victim was robbed and beaten. It was the hated Samaritan who cared for the victim as he would care for himself, giving up a month salary for that stranger to be treated, healed and housed.

I know your diatribe is coming from never actually having read the Bible but judging from bits and pieces you have read or heard. You can choose to believe or not, but you should at least choose to be informed from the actual source - Bible.

---

I am super busy right now and quite frankly discussions about religion really bore me even in the best of times so I am not going to give this a proper response so forgive me for that.

Let me just say that I spent 9 of my 11 years of elementary, middle, and high school education attending religious (Christian) schools which required attendance at mass/chapel along with Bible study. My parents also put me in one horrendous year of catechism, which was after church on Sundays.

So you are very wrong when you say that I am coming from a place of misinformation. I read the entire Bible cover to cover in high school just to say that I did it. Man was that difficult to get through at times. I don't recommend anyone do that. My high school curriculum required one course each year to be a Bible study class where we dove deep into it, sometimes even going into the original Greek or Hebrew and setting historical contexts to make more sense of things. The Bible has a lot of symbolism. It also has a few contradictions that were fun to debate and speculate about.

I am not a religious person. I go to church on Easter and that's about it - and not every Easter either. I recognize the value in religion, although I am skeptical of people who call themselves Christians because most of them are hypocrites. That isn't directed at you, but just my overall experience. In fact, my parents quit going to church because they realized that two types of people comprised most of the clique that frequently attended: gossips there to socialize and evildoers afraid of going to hell. The really nasty people doing horrible things like cheating on their spouses, stealing, and sexually abusing children attended church regularly. It wasn't a great group of people to hang around and they thought attending regularly and donating a lot of money to the church would get them into heaven.

The only thing worse were some of the Protestant churches which had some real kooks attending. Prophets, faith healers, speaking in tongues. It's all really disturbing what some of those people get up to. I guess mainstream Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Methodists, and the like are fine but the Pentecostals, the Baptists, Adventists... there are some real weirdos out there. Catholic Church is closest to what I am most comfortable with as my regular church was Eastern Orthodox, but I have been to them all - or at least been proselytized to by them all when they came to lead chapel at my non-denominational schools.

Okay, so that said I have to disagree with you. Christianity is patriarchal at its core. God is male. Jesus was a man. Adam was created first. All the most important figures other than Mary are men and Mary - as revered as she is - is hardly mentioned at all. Esther? Please.

The Bible is full of instructions for wives to submit to their husbands.

"But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man [...] For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man" (I Corinthians 11:3)

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord" (Ephesians 5:22)

"As the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything" (Ephesians 5:24)

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord" (Colossians 3:18)

"The aged women [are to] … teach the young women to be … obedient to their own husbands" (Titus 2:3-5)

"Ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands" (1 Peter 3:1)

Spin that any way you want to, but that is what it says and it is what good Christian women are taught to do.

As for racism, that isn't really in the Bible except for the whole thing about Jews being God's people, the constant wars killing everyone else - sometimes genocidal - but maybe that's not a racial thing. Certainly Jesus did not condone any of that and neither did the early church teach that.

However, the Church evolved along a different path.

"While it may seem obvious to mainstream white Christians today that slavery, segregation and overt declarations of white supremacy are antithetical to the teachings of Jesus, such a conviction is, in fact, a recent development for most white American Christians and churches, both Protestant and Catholic."

(Source: Racism among white Christians is higher than among the nonreligious. That's no coincidence.)

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No where did I write that the Bible does not teach wives to submit. In fact, that was the discussion Dajo and I had.

While you seem to have been exposed to religion, your description seems to indicate Catholicism than Christianity (faith alone and Christ alone as opposed to needing new canons and Pope and confession to a priest). The confusion between the different religions indicates you may not be as knowledgeable as you claim. There is nothing you wrote that indicates your understanding of faith alone, Christ alone, grace alone or completeness of the Bible without need for catholic canons.

The submission you mention only works if husbands love their wives unconditionally. Ephesians 5:25. Doubt most husbands do that just like most wives do not submit to their husbands as head of the family. Maybe in your family, your wife doesn't consider you the head of the family, but even non-Christian women often treat the husband as the head instead of the wife. That is what it means to submit. Not be some submissive non-partner. You say you read the Bible but you pick those out without finishing the rest of the relevant verses relating to how husbands then need to sacrifice for their wives like Jesus laid down His life. Without actual research, I suspect most instances of spousal abuse and sexual assault are from non religious folks instead of Christians.

You keep saying Christian's belief is racist but it was the Christians who founded the abolitionist movement, who still travel to areas of tragedy in every nation, and founded the social services during the Industrial Revolution. Are there no non-Christians behaving badly? Of course there are. Do non-Christians not commit crimes?

You still seem to think that salvation is works based as if we are the heros in the story with our great acts and character. That makes me question what you learned during your reading of the Bible. Did you skip Romans? The one thing that Christians learned in all denomination is that we are all broken and none more worthy than anyone else other than Jesus. What did you learn if not that basic concept?

You mention failings of Christians. But how many instances of racism, mass murder, and mass shooting are conducted by atheists? Does that mean rejection of religion means adoption of racism? Of course not. So why the opposite? Are you saying all of the members of the black churches are racist? Or is this more instances of racism by every group of people in every stage of history? People of all colors and beliefs are broken.

By the way, what is your issue with Baptists? I understand maybe Pentecostal since many fake believers and fraudsters, such as faith healers and prosperity gospel comes from that denomination, but what about Baptism? Most black Christians (and the black community as a percentage is more Christian than white) are Baptists. What is it about the way Baptist's baptize that you object to? They just happen to have a creed relating to full submersion for Baptism but have the same fundamental beliefs as others.

The basic human failing that lead to racism - grouping people by color or religion as if every member of every group is the same as the worst actors - and basing their discrimination without grace and knowledge are reflected in typical bigotry against members of racial and religious groups, whether Jewish, Muslim or Christians. It is a base character fault to want to feel better about themselves not through their own actions and contributions but by bigotry against a group of people they really don't know.

calbear93 said:

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DiabloWags said:

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calbear93 said:

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The submission you mention only works if husbands love their wives unconditionally. Ephesians 5:25.

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I love my wife unconditionally.
I also enjoy anal sex. She doesnt.

But I am a Christian man in "body and spirit" and need to exert my dominance as God wanted me to.
We are all God's children. It is God's will when I have anal sex with my wife . . . even though she does not enjoy it.
She submits, because I love her unconditionally.

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Imagine you writing that about a Muslim or a Jew. A bigot is a bigot. All three religion provide the same. You just choose one that you think is safe for your sacred standing here.

Hate to make personal attack but you deserve it beyond measure.

Does anyone betray SDE as much as Diablo with his SDE car, name dropping, and identifying people's IQ when most here have more education and accomplishments? From now, you are just small Dick wags.

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Sadly, you sound like your heart is filled with hate.
I will pray for you.

Massive protest in South Shore, Chicago against new illegals arriving

One of their concerns? These new arrivals will diminish the black vote

“Politically, having over 500 people in our community will completely wipe out any interests we have” pic.twitter.com/9vSsZkQOUE

— End Wokeness (@EndWokeness) May 12, 2023

Black Chicagoans say authorities are shuttling in illegals to replace them and their culture, but I've been told that's a racist conspiracy theory!

BearHunter said:

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Massive protest in South Shore, Chicago against new illegals arriving

One of their concerns? These new arrivals will diminish the black vote

“Politically, having over 500 people in our community will completely wipe out any interests we have” pic.twitter.com/9vSsZkQOUE

— End Wokeness (@EndWokeness) May 12, 2023

Black Chicagoans say authorities are shuttling in illegals to replace them and their culture, but I've been told that's a racist conspiracy theory!

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But they never talk about early 1900's and white mob crime wave as if it never happened the seeds were planted for a violent Chicago between the Mob and corrupt politicians and dirty cops all white !!!

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRKaK5qn/?t=1
This who u love

And this is the mic drop on you and him and all of your racist foolishness
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRKabN6T/?t=1

That kkk white hood and robe fits on you perfectly

going4roses said:

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BearHunter said:

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Massive protest in South Shore, Chicago against new illegals arriving

One of their concerns? These new arrivals will diminish the black vote

“Politically, having over 500 people in our community will completely wipe out any interests we have” pic.twitter.com/9vSsZkQOUE

— End Wokeness (@EndWokeness) May 12, 2023

Black Chicagoans say authorities are shuttling in illegals to replace them and their culture, but I've been told that's a racist conspiracy theory!

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But they never talk about early 1900's and white mob crime wave as if it never happened and did plant the seeds for Chicago between the Mob and corrupt politicians and dirty cops all white !!!

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRKaK5qn/?t=1
This who u love

And this is the mic drop on you and him and all of your racist foolishness
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRKabN6T/?t=1

That kkk white hood and rob fits on you perfectly

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"They" might be living in the present instead of stuck in the past.

going4roses said:

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That kkk white hood and robe fits on you perfectly

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The kkk white hoods and robes were worn by Democrats.

Biden at Howard Univ.: “The most dangerous threat to our homeland is white supremacy … and I’m not just saying this because I’m at a black HBCU.” pic.twitter.com/WhwoSvlyN7

— Tom Elliott (@tomselliott) May 13, 2023

Meanwhile, Biden just told black students who are starting the rest of their lives that they're all victims. But for some reason, that doesn't stop the millions of non-whites trying to enter the country illegally.

Oh just stop it …

The Democratic Party needs the black vote to survive as an institution and will keep feeding them lies to prevent them from leaving the plantation.

Right

What party did this ?

“But BLM burned down cities” meanwhile they literally bombed Philly and black Wall Street https://t.co/lqZY3rhNPz

— YES 🏁 (@GenZSaviors) May 13, 2023