Big C said:

---

Okay, I knew RFK Jr was some anti-vax nutjob (yes, I recognize that Big Pharma has a profit motive, but still... ) and then I guess I do a Rip Van Winkle and all of a sudden he's running for President? And now somebody on this board (This board, the sanest group of people in the world!) apparently has a pin-up of him in their room or something?

I'm hearing a lot about RFK Jr lately! Better find out more... so I go to Wikipedia and I don't get too far before I read the following:

"...In 1982, Kennedy was sworn in as an assistant district attorney for Manhattan. After failing his bar exam, he resigned in July 1983. That September, he was charged with heroin possession, and pleaded guilty in February 1984, when he received to two years' probation and community service... "

And that was even before he cemented his reputation as a whack job!

Good thing for him he's got the name and the hairline and the square jaw and all, but is that all it takes nowadays?!?

Geez Louise...

---

There are quite a few long interviews of JFK Jr. that'll give you a good idea of where he stands on quite a few issues. I'm listening to this one as we speak:
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. | Club Random with Bill Maher It's about 2 hrs.

If you think he's an "anti-vax nut job," you need to listen to his explanation, in his words. Don't pay any attention to his legacy/corporate media critics. Listen & think for yourself.

I'm suspicious about who's funding his campaign.

But other than that, I support his candidacy, and I think the Dems need to take him seriously IF they want Biden to win in 2024.

On most issues, other than some aspects of vaccines & Covid/Ivermectin, I think his views are aligned with more Democrats -- and Americans -- than Biden or any other corporate Democrat.

Bottom line: I'd rather support someone who gets vaccines wrong than someone who got the Iraq War wrong.

FWIW, I'm more aligned with Marianne Williamson than JFK Jr., but I'm still leery about his right-wing support. Both are far better for most Americans, IMO, than Biden.

Suggestion: Rather than focusing on mistakes from the 1980s, listen to the interviews, and then share your take on him. Where do you disagree? Any agreement? I think that'll be a more effective use of this thread that you started.

Oh, great, another election denier.

Unit2Sucks said:

---

Every couple of years the GOPers like to support some random non-democrat to be the democrat candidate for president. They last did it with "Russian asset" Tulsi Gabbard or Kanye or whomever.

The GOP knows that Trump can't win, so their goal is to promote some other sure loser to help Trump. If they liked RFK so much they should support him against Trump in the GOP primary.

---

When someone on the other side is a strong proponent of one of your strongest positions, then you tend to support that candidate as a better option.

For example, I am sure Liz Cheney is 99% against the Democratic platform. However, because she and other traditional conservatives believe that Trump is responsible for January 6th, they are supported more or less by the Democrats (other than in primaries so that the whack job can win the primary and lose to the Democrats).

For the far right, they took a position on COVID vaccine. Makes sense that they would support a known anti-vaccine politician. Strange reason to support a candidate, but happens all the time.

Not sure Kanye was ever a Democrat.

Apparently, from what I've seen on BI, he's also gay and a steroids user.

Big C said:

---

Okay, I knew RFK Jr was some anti-vax nutjob (yes, I recognize that Big Pharma has a profit motive, but still... ) and then I guess I do a Rip Van Winkle and all of a sudden he's running for President? And now somebody on this board (This board, the sanest group of people in the world!) apparently has a pin-up of him in their room or something?

I'm hearing a lot about RFK Jr lately! Better find out more... so I go to Wikipedia and I don't get too far before I read the following:

"...In 1982, Kennedy was sworn in as an assistant district attorney for Manhattan. After failing his bar exam, he resigned in July 1983. That September, he was charged with heroin possession, and pleaded guilty in February 1984, when he received to two years' probation and community service... "

And that was even before he cemented his reputation as a whack job!

Good thing for him he's got the name and the hairline and the square jaw and all, but is that all it takes nowadays?!?

Geez Louise...

---

Something about the second generation Kennedys and the NY bar exam. At least RFK's son only failed once as opposed to JFK's son who failed twice.

Both went to decent law schools so pretty surprising that they had such a hard time.

BearHunter said:

---

The Democratic Party have standards when it comes to the highest offices in the land. See Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. Don't forget, these two were originally anti-vaxxers and then they flip flopped.

---

Only when Trump was pushing it as a counter to a permanent shutdown. But then the far right strangely took over the mantle when Biden became president. And the Democrats then took the mantle of mocking the shutdown when implemented by China and zero-COVID policy.

Of course, Biden is going to now say he did not trust Trump and not that he did not trust the COVID vaccines whose development accelerated under Trump. So, are the Republicans now entitled to distrust vaccines because Biden is pushing it? Biden was the first one to make the COVID vaccine a political and not a scientific matter. For me, I was not going to trust any political hack on medical advice. I trusted scientists and my doctors who told me to get the vaccine, and so I did, And I am glad I did just like I am glad I am vaccinated against whole gamut of diseases we have overcome through progress.

bearister said:

---

As all the tRumps prove: You can donate your way into an elite school and get a "purchased" degree via a hefty donation…..but as Tiffy proves, it is hard to purchase bar exam passage.

---

People in NY always tell me that the NY bar is the hardest. Yes, it is true that I had to learn NY specific law for the written portion, but I found the CA bar to be actually harder than the NY bar exam.

By the way, even money could not buy Trump into a seat at Penn directly from high school, and he had to transfer there from Rutgers. Colleges were a lot easier to get into (including Penn and Berkeley) during the 60s.

sycasey said:

---

okaydo said:

---

Big C said:

---

Okay, I knew RFK Jr was some anti-vax nutjob (yes, I recognize that Big Pharma has a profit motive, but still... ) and then I guess I do a Rip Van Winkle and all of a sudden he's running for President? And now somebody on this board (This board, the sanest group of people in the world!) apparently has a pin-up of him in their room or something?

I'm hearing a lot about RFK Jr lately! Better find out more... so I go to Wikipedia and I don't get too far before I read the following:

"...In 1982, Kennedy was sworn in as an assistant district attorney for Manhattan. After failing his bar exam, he resigned in July 1983. That September, he was charged with heroin possession, and pleaded guilty in February 1984, when he received to two years' probation and community service... "

And that was even before he cemented his reputation as a whack job!

Good thing for him he's got the name and the hairline and the square jaw and all, but is that all it takes nowadays?!?

Geez Louise...

---

He makes some good points. I'm worried about getting cancer from Wi-Fi.

RFK Jr. Believes that cell phones and WiFi causes cancer, mitochondrial damage, and "leaky brain"

Which is debunked here: https://t.co/BGUqp7zUJY pic.twitter.com/SETECmfaip

— Dan (@danmurrayserter) June 20, 2023

---

For me this basically overrides any other beliefs he might hold. The guy is a nut and not worth my attention.

---

In fairness, a lot of his fans do seem to have a "leaky brain" including his supporters on BI.

We should see what happens when they put their phones away.

BearHunter said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

The Democratic Party have standards when it comes to the highest offices in the land. See Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. Don't forget, these two were originally anti-vaxxers and then they flip flopped.

---

Only when Trump was pushing it as a counter to a permanent shutdown. But then the far right strangely took over the mantle when Biden became president. And the Democrats then took the mantle of mocking the shutdown when implemented by China and zero-COVID policy.

Of course, Biden is going to now say he did not trust Trump and not that he did not trust the COVID vaccines whose development accelerated under Trump. So, are the Republicans now entitled to distrust vaccines because Biden is pushing it? Biden was the first one to make the COVID vaccine a political and not a scientific matter. For me, I was not going to trust any political hack on medical advice. I trusted scientists and my doctors who told me to get the vaccine, and so I did, And I am glad I did just like I am glad I am vaccinated against whole gamut of diseases we have overcome through progress.

---

The Overton window has been shifting to the left for some time, there is no major representation of the far right in DC.

The political and media hacks you say you distrust are sometimes the very ones who quote the scientists and doctors you trust. This pandemic was never about trusting the science, it was about trusting the scientists that the media and ruling class favored.

---

I don't know about that. The Freedom Caucus with their ill informed, anti-capitalism, and anti-science have strong representation in DC. Maybe not the to extent of the far left, but enough that historical conservative principles are getting run over by social warfare and political posturing. The far right seems too much like the nationalistic, immigration hating left from when I became a conservative.

On your point on scientist, like science, I go with the best explanation. Do I think twitter hacks, tiktok geniuses, Qanon insiders who want us to believe Clinton is sacrificing children at a pizza parlor, and immoral politicians are better informed and less biased than scientists who dedicated their lives to fighting diseases? Of course not. Are scientists biased as well? Of course, and that is why I was so pissed off about actual doctors, after saying grandchildren could not go to their grandparents' funeral outdoors were then encouraging protestors to protest because it was safe. Media and scientists who trivialize their essential creditability cannot curse the culture that questions their credibility. However, all things being equal, scientists are the most reliable source even if not completely independent and without conflict.

As far as the media is concerned, in the one area that I am familiar with, the media gets so much of it wrong that I assume they get other things wrong all the time. And I don't think they are looking to purposely mislead. They are just lazy, have personal political opinions and are greedy And Americans are not intellectually curious and they want something easy to digest and understand, which does not build in a lot of space for nuances.

This thread brings me back to the spring of 1968 when I was in 8th grade and Bobby was campaigning. I think everyone under 30 thought he was super cool. He had a surfer haircut, was young and had that accent…..and then they killed him.



Does anyone remember when his son, Joe, briefly went to Cal in 1972? I remember he got in a fender bender reckless driving crash on Durant by Top Dog. It was foreshadowing of the summer of '73 when he paralyzed a girl in a car crash.

Joe II



RFK Jr.



*As Arlo Guthrie would say, the Kennedy boys were freaks in the early 70's.

dajo9 said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

The Democratic Party have standards when it comes to the highest offices in the land. See Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. Don't forget, these two were originally anti-vaxxers and then they flip flopped.

---

Only when Trump was pushing it as a counter to a permanent shutdown. But then the far right strangely took over the mantle when Biden became president. And the Democrats then took the mantle of mocking the shutdown when implemented by China and zero-COVID policy.

Of course, Biden is going to now say he did not trust Trump and not that he did not trust the COVID vaccines whose development accelerated under Trump. So, are the Republicans now entitled to distrust vaccines because Biden is pushing it? Biden was the first one to make the COVID vaccine a political and not a scientific matter. For me, I was not going to trust any political hack on medical advice. I trusted scientists and my doctors who told me to get the vaccine, and so I did, And I am glad I did just like I am glad I am vaccinated against whole gamut of diseases we have overcome through progress.

---

The Overton window has been shifting to the left for some time, there is no major representation of the far right in DC.

The political and media hacks you say you distrust are sometimes the very ones who quote the scientists and doctors you trust. This pandemic was never about trusting the science, it was about trusting the scientists that the media and ruling class favored.

---

The far right seems too much like the nationalistic, immigration hating left from when I became a conservative.

---

A sentence like this is perplexing to me. I don't think we are very much different in age. Yet I would say the nationalistic, immigrant hating right is part of why I became a liberal.

---

Unions and fear of immigrants taking jobs from middle class or lowering wages for Americans. Bernie Sanders was the typical, union-protecting liberal as opposed to open competition, global economy and trade treaties and bringing the smartest to innovate that was more common to fiscal conservatives who wanted more favorable conditions for corporations to compete globally. His position was more closely aligned with social conservatives who didn't want the social impact from immigration. However, the general republican position was similar to what Reagan, Bush, etc. supported, which was robust LEGAL immigration to stimulate economy, generate innovation, and reduce cost of living.

Look up Bernie Sanders' immigration position and how it has evolved only recently when he ran for president. The far left position was anti-immigration and protecting manufacturing and farm jobs in the US. Bernie's position was that having an open border will make us poor and put Americans out of employment.

BearHunter said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

The Democratic Party have standards when it comes to the highest offices in the land. See Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. Don't forget, these two were originally anti-vaxxers and then they flip flopped.

---

Only when Trump was pushing it as a counter to a permanent shutdown. But then the far right strangely took over the mantle when Biden became president. And the Democrats then took the mantle of mocking the shutdown when implemented by China and zero-COVID policy.

Of course, Biden is going to now say he did not trust Trump and not that he did not trust the COVID vaccines whose development accelerated under Trump. So, are the Republicans now entitled to distrust vaccines because Biden is pushing it? Biden was the first one to make the COVID vaccine a political and not a scientific matter. For me, I was not going to trust any political hack on medical advice. I trusted scientists and my doctors who told me to get the vaccine, and so I did, And I am glad I did just like I am glad I am vaccinated against whole gamut of diseases we have overcome through progress.

---

The Overton window has been shifting to the left for some time, there is no major representation of the far right in DC.

The political and media hacks you say you distrust are sometimes the very ones who quote the scientists and doctors you trust. This pandemic was never about trusting the science, it was about trusting the scientists that the media and ruling class favored.

---

I don't know about that. The Freedom Caucus with their ill informed, anti-capitalism, and anti-science have strong representation in DC. Maybe not the to extent of the far left, but enough that historical conservative principles are getting run over by social warfare and political posturing. The far right seems too much like the nationalistic, immigration hating left from when I became a conservative.

On your point on scientist, like science, I go with the best explanation. Do I think twitter hacks, tiktok geniuses, Qanon insiders who want us to believe Clinton is sacrificing children at a pizza parlor, and immoral politicians are better informed and less biased than scientists who dedicated their lives to fighting diseases? Of course not. Are scientists biased as well? Of course, and that is why I was so pissed off about actual doctors, after saying grandchildren could not go to their grandparents' funeral outdoors were then encouraging protestors to protest because it was safe. Media and scientists who trivialize their essential creditability cannot curse the culture that questions their credibility. However, all things being equal, scientists are the most reliable source even if not completely independent and without conflict.

As far as the media is concerned, in the one area that I am familiar with, the media gets so much of it wrong that I assume they get other things wrong all the time. And I don't think they are looking to purposely mislead. They are just lazy, have personal political opinions and are greedy And Americans are not intellectually curious and they want something easy to digest and understand, which does not build in a lot of space for nuances.

---

Fascination with pizza parlors, following the latest from QAnon, and ignoring the existence of child trafficking rings is all left winger stuff.

---

MTG was literally QAnon at one point. She pushed the crazy conspiracy, including claims that Sandy Hook was staged. And now she is basically one of the key leaders in the House majority.

calbear93 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

The Democratic Party have standards when it comes to the highest offices in the land. See Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. Don't forget, these two were originally anti-vaxxers and then they flip flopped.

---

Only when Trump was pushing it as a counter to a permanent shutdown. But then the far right strangely took over the mantle when Biden became president. And the Democrats then took the mantle of mocking the shutdown when implemented by China and zero-COVID policy.

Of course, Biden is going to now say he did not trust Trump and not that he did not trust the COVID vaccines whose development accelerated under Trump. So, are the Republicans now entitled to distrust vaccines because Biden is pushing it? Biden was the first one to make the COVID vaccine a political and not a scientific matter. For me, I was not going to trust any political hack on medical advice. I trusted scientists and my doctors who told me to get the vaccine, and so I did, And I am glad I did just like I am glad I am vaccinated against whole gamut of diseases we have overcome through progress.

---

The Overton window has been shifting to the left for some time, there is no major representation of the far right in DC.

The political and media hacks you say you distrust are sometimes the very ones who quote the scientists and doctors you trust. This pandemic was never about trusting the science, it was about trusting the scientists that the media and ruling class favored.

---

The far right seems too much like the nationalistic, immigration hating left from when I became a conservative.

---

A sentence like this is perplexing to me. I don't think we are very much different in age. Yet I would say the nationalistic, immigrant hating right is part of why I became a liberal.

---

Unions and fear of immigrants taking jobs from middle class or lowering wages for Americans. Bernie Sanders was the typical, union-protecting liberal as opposed to open competition, global economy and trade treaties and bringing the smartest to innovate that was more common to fiscal conservatives who wanted more favorable conditions for corporations to compete globally. His position was more closely aligned with social conservatives who didn't want the social impact from immigration. However, the general republican position was similar to what Reagan, Bush, etc. supported, which was robust LEGAL immigration to stimulate economy, generate innovation, and reduce cost of living.

Look up Bernie Sanders' immigration position and how it has evolved only recently when he ran for president. The far left position was anti-immigration and protecting manufacturing and farm jobs in the US. Bernie's position was that having an open border will make us poor and put Americans out of employment.

---

I don't care about Bernie Sanders positions back then. He was on an island unto himself. Senate Democrats voted 34-8 in favor of the 1986 Immigration legislation.

The last time Democrats hosted their national convention in Chicago, the world got the 1996 DNC Macarena.pic.twitter.com/ozMV1TEipm

— Jason Calvi (@JasonCalvi) April 11, 2023

dajo9 said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

The Democratic Party have standards when it comes to the highest offices in the land. See Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. Don't forget, these two were originally anti-vaxxers and then they flip flopped.

---

Only when Trump was pushing it as a counter to a permanent shutdown. But then the far right strangely took over the mantle when Biden became president. And the Democrats then took the mantle of mocking the shutdown when implemented by China and zero-COVID policy.

Of course, Biden is going to now say he did not trust Trump and not that he did not trust the COVID vaccines whose development accelerated under Trump. So, are the Republicans now entitled to distrust vaccines because Biden is pushing it? Biden was the first one to make the COVID vaccine a political and not a scientific matter. For me, I was not going to trust any political hack on medical advice. I trusted scientists and my doctors who told me to get the vaccine, and so I did, And I am glad I did just like I am glad I am vaccinated against whole gamut of diseases we have overcome through progress.

---

The Overton window has been shifting to the left for some time, there is no major representation of the far right in DC.

The political and media hacks you say you distrust are sometimes the very ones who quote the scientists and doctors you trust. This pandemic was never about trusting the science, it was about trusting the scientists that the media and ruling class favored.

---

The far right seems too much like the nationalistic, immigration hating left from when I became a conservative.

---

A sentence like this is perplexing to me. I don't think we are very much different in age. Yet I would say the nationalistic, immigrant hating right is part of why I became a liberal.

---

Unions and fear of immigrants taking jobs from middle class or lowering wages for Americans. Bernie Sanders was the typical, union-protecting liberal as opposed to open competition, global economy and trade treaties and bringing the smartest to innovate that was more common to fiscal conservatives who wanted more favorable conditions for corporations to compete globally. His position was more closely aligned with social conservatives who didn't want the social impact from immigration. However, the general republican position was similar to what Reagan, Bush, etc. supported, which was robust LEGAL immigration to stimulate economy, generate innovation, and reduce cost of living.

Look up Bernie Sanders' immigration position and how it has evolved only recently when he ran for president. The far left position was anti-immigration and protecting manufacturing and farm jobs in the US. Bernie's position was that having an open border will make us poor and put Americans out of employment.

---

I don't care about Bernie Sanders positions back then. He was on an island unto himself. Senate Democrats voted 34-8 in favor of the 1986 Immigration legislation.

The last time Democrats hosted their national convention in Chicago, the world got the 1996 DNC Macarena.pic.twitter.com/ozMV1TEipm

— Jason Calvi (@JasonCalvi) April 11, 2023

---

Well, you could not be for unions and still be for broad immigrations back in the early 80s. Also, a majority of the Republicans voted for the same 1986 immigration reform and control act that provided amnesty but also required verification by employers. And Reagan pushed for the passage and signed it. The fiscal conservatives, like the Koch brothers, have always been for robust immigration. The social conservatives and labor friendly liberals who wanted higher wages and protection of jobs were against immigration. Sanders was not the only one. It was when the labor unions realized that creating pathway for illegal immigrants to gain legal status will make it easier to get them to unionize did they change their tone from negative overall to immigration to negative overall to just illegal immigrants who have no path to legal status and therefore were less likely to join. The 1986 bill was supported by unions because it make it easier for them to recruit former illegal immigrants, and it was supported by fiscal conservative Republicans because immigration is always good for corporations and for US companies to compete. But unions were still against illegal immigration overall.

BearHunter said:

---

bearister said:

---

This thread brings me back to the spring of 1968 when I was in 8th grade and Bobby was campaigning. I think everyone under 30 thought he was super cool. He had a surfer haircut, was young and had that accent…..and then they killed him.

*As Arlo Guthrie would say, the Kennedy boys were freaks in the early 70's.

---

Freaks. Joe Biden was stealing classified documents and showering with Ashely since 1974.

---

Ewwww. Biden was showering with Ashley years before she was born?

calbear93 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

The Democratic Party have standards when it comes to the highest offices in the land. See Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. Don't forget, these two were originally anti-vaxxers and then they flip flopped.

---

Only when Trump was pushing it as a counter to a permanent shutdown. But then the far right strangely took over the mantle when Biden became president. And the Democrats then took the mantle of mocking the shutdown when implemented by China and zero-COVID policy.

Of course, Biden is going to now say he did not trust Trump and not that he did not trust the COVID vaccines whose development accelerated under Trump. So, are the Republicans now entitled to distrust vaccines because Biden is pushing it? Biden was the first one to make the COVID vaccine a political and not a scientific matter. For me, I was not going to trust any political hack on medical advice. I trusted scientists and my doctors who told me to get the vaccine, and so I did, And I am glad I did just like I am glad I am vaccinated against whole gamut of diseases we have overcome through progress.

---

The Overton window has been shifting to the left for some time, there is no major representation of the far right in DC.

The political and media hacks you say you distrust are sometimes the very ones who quote the scientists and doctors you trust. This pandemic was never about trusting the science, it was about trusting the scientists that the media and ruling class favored.

---

The far right seems too much like the nationalistic, immigration hating left from when I became a conservative.

---

A sentence like this is perplexing to me. I don't think we are very much different in age. Yet I would say the nationalistic, immigrant hating right is part of why I became a liberal.

---

Unions and fear of immigrants taking jobs from middle class or lowering wages for Americans. Bernie Sanders was the typical, union-protecting liberal as opposed to open competition, global economy and trade treaties and bringing the smartest to innovate that was more common to fiscal conservatives who wanted more favorable conditions for corporations to compete globally. His position was more closely aligned with social conservatives who didn't want the social impact from immigration. However, the general republican position was similar to what Reagan, Bush, etc. supported, which was robust LEGAL immigration to stimulate economy, generate innovation, and reduce cost of living.

Look up Bernie Sanders' immigration position and how it has evolved only recently when he ran for president. The far left position was anti-immigration and protecting manufacturing and farm jobs in the US. Bernie's position was that having an open border will make us poor and put Americans out of employment.

---

I don't care about Bernie Sanders positions back then. He was on an island unto himself. Senate Democrats voted 34-8 in favor of the 1986 Immigration legislation.

The last time Democrats hosted their national convention in Chicago, the world got the 1996 DNC Macarena.pic.twitter.com/ozMV1TEipm

— Jason Calvi (@JasonCalvi) April 11, 2023

---

Well, you could not be for unions and still be for broad immigrations back in the 80s. Also, a majority of the Republicans voted the same 1986 immigration reform and control act that provided amnesty but also required verification by employers. And Reagan pushed for the passage and signed it. The fiscal conservatives, like the Koch brothers, have always been for robust immigration. The social conservatives and labor friendly liberals who wanted higher wages and protection of jobs were against immigration. Sanders was not the only one.

---

Maybe you are a little older than me because I've never related to a Democratic Party controlled by labor unions. Guys like Gephardt and Daschle were fossils who needed to go, in my view.

My support for immigration is fairly limited for wage reasons, though I'm no union guy. I support the diversity our country has. What repulsed me about the Republican Party was their hate of the immigrant. They loved the cheap labor. They didn't like the immigrant. Growing up, Republican kids were the ones full of racist comments. Democratic kids had more diverse friendships. That was my experience.

dajo9 said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

calbear93 said:

---

BearHunter said:

---

The Democratic Party have standards when it comes to the highest offices in the land. See Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. Don't forget, these two were originally anti-vaxxers and then they flip flopped.

---

Only when Trump was pushing it as a counter to a permanent shutdown. But then the far right strangely took over the mantle when Biden became president. And the Democrats then took the mantle of mocking the shutdown when implemented by China and zero-COVID policy.

Of course, Biden is going to now say he did not trust Trump and not that he did not trust the COVID vaccines whose development accelerated under Trump. So, are the Republicans now entitled to distrust vaccines because Biden is pushing it? Biden was the first one to make the COVID vaccine a political and not a scientific matter. For me, I was not going to trust any political hack on medical advice. I trusted scientists and my doctors who told me to get the vaccine, and so I did, And I am glad I did just like I am glad I am vaccinated against whole gamut of diseases we have overcome through progress.

---

The Overton window has been shifting to the left for some time, there is no major representation of the far right in DC.

The political and media hacks you say you distrust are sometimes the very ones who quote the scientists and doctors you trust. This pandemic was never about trusting the science, it was about trusting the scientists that the media and ruling class favored.

---

The far right seems too much like the nationalistic, immigration hating left from when I became a conservative.

---

A sentence like this is perplexing to me. I don't think we are very much different in age. Yet I would say the nationalistic, immigrant hating right is part of why I became a liberal.

---

Unions and fear of immigrants taking jobs from middle class or lowering wages for Americans. Bernie Sanders was the typical, union-protecting liberal as opposed to open competition, global economy and trade treaties and bringing the smartest to innovate that was more common to fiscal conservatives who wanted more favorable conditions for corporations to compete globally. His position was more closely aligned with social conservatives who didn't want the social impact from immigration. However, the general republican position was similar to what Reagan, Bush, etc. supported, which was robust LEGAL immigration to stimulate economy, generate innovation, and reduce cost of living.

Look up Bernie Sanders' immigration position and how it has evolved only recently when he ran for president. The far left position was anti-immigration and protecting manufacturing and farm jobs in the US. Bernie's position was that having an open border will make us poor and put Americans out of employment.

---

I don't care about Bernie Sanders positions back then. He was on an island unto himself. Senate Democrats voted 34-8 in favor of the 1986 Immigration legislation.

The last time Democrats hosted their national convention in Chicago, the world got the 1996 DNC Macarena.pic.twitter.com/ozMV1TEipm

— Jason Calvi (@JasonCalvi) April 11, 2023

---

Well, you could not be for unions and still be for broad immigrations back in the 80s. Also, a majority of the Republicans voted the same 1986 immigration reform and control act that provided amnesty but also required verification by employers. And Reagan pushed for the passage and signed it. The fiscal conservatives, like the Koch brothers, have always been for robust immigration. The social conservatives and labor friendly liberals who wanted higher wages and protection of jobs were against immigration. Sanders was not the only one.

---

Maybe you are a little older than me because I've never related to a Democratic Party controlled by labor unions. Guys like Gephardt and Daschle were fossils who needed to go, in my view.

My support for immigration is fairly limited for wage reasons, though I'm no union guy. I support the diversity our country has. What repulsed me about the Republican Party was their hate of the immigrant. They loved the cheap labor. They didn't like the immigrant. Growing up, Republican kids were the ones full of racist comments. Democratic kids had more diverse friendships. That was my experience.

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I am probably older than you. I am turning 52 this year, so past my midpoint. If I had to guess, you are probably in your 40s. While I was generally liberal in my youth, I still remember the crappy economy from the Carter years when I was in early elementary school years and the inspirational character of the Reagan years. Didn't become a fiscal conservative until much later in life after I started understanding finances and human nature, but I think I believed the logic of it even before Berkeley.

BY the way, when I was growing up, racism was rampant among Democrats and Republicans, even in California. My closest friends were black and Korean, and I got into fights all the time defending them. Many racists loved unions and middle class but thought less of immigrants. You only need to look at movies from the 80s, including John Hughes films, to understand that racism was rampant.

BearHunter said:

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bearister said:

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This thread brings me back to the spring of 1968 when I was in 8th grade and Bobby was campaigning. I think everyone under 30 thought he was super cool. He had a surfer haircut, was young and had that accent…..and then they killed him.

*As Arlo Guthrie would say, the Kennedy boys were freaks in the early 70's.

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Freaks. Joe Biden was stealing classified documents and showering with Ashely since 1974.

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…and that segue is about as smooth as a polar bear repairing a Rolex with a mallet.