dajo9 said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

Just to make the domestic side of all this more murky:

House Republicans rolled out the 13-page bill on Monday, which would completely offer this aide to Israel by rescinding the $14.3 billion in Adie to Israel from the Inflation Reduction Act passed last year. Specifically, the bill targets some of the $80 billion the package allocated toward the Internal Revenue Service for audits on wealthy individuals. It also doesn't address any aide to Gaza post-whatever Israel is doing.

---

DOA

But on brand for Republicans to make this about supporting wealthy donors and big business. The gay hating Speaker specifically wants to remove investments towards a free e-filing service that would save average Americans billions but take revenue away from companies like H&R Block. It would also help rich tax cheats.

Everything Minot, movielover, and the others have been voting for.

---

You still need the House to approve aide. GOP will get something. Just that the optics make the GOP look ugly. Though on reflection, Biden probably is playing with Iran money, since the deal with Iran seems broken.

wifeisafurd said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

Just to make the domestic side of all this more murky:

House Republicans rolled out the 13-page bill on Monday, which would completely offer this aide to Israel by rescinding the $14.3 billion in Adie to Israel from the Inflation Reduction Act passed last year. Specifically, the bill targets some of the $80 billion the package allocated toward the Internal Revenue Service for audits on wealthy individuals. It also doesn't address any aide to Gaza post-whatever Israel is doing.

---

DOA

But on brand for Republicans to make this about supporting wealthy donors and big business. The gay hating Speaker specifically wants to remove investments towards a free e-filing service that would save average Americans billions but take revenue away from companies like H&R Block. It would also help rich tax cheats.

Everything Minot, movielover, and the others have been voting for.

---

You still need the House to approve aide. GOP will get something. Just that the optics make the GOP look ugly.

---

I'm against aid for Israel so it's all good for me. But I understand aid for Israel will be part of the compromise to get aid for Ukraine.

Have to wonder where this all leads? Here is some speculation: Israel is not letting Hamas guys hide behind anyone, and they seem to have good intelligence on where the tunnels are located. I'm guessing the intelligence is coming from PLO sources, and that the next government to be installed is the PLO, who works a deal with Israel. Part of the Joe Biden game plan. Nice to have some people who know what they are doing in the White House. And he has $billions of frozen Iran assets Joe plans to give to the PLO in Gaza. No need for House approval on that one.

BTW, if you want to see the War is Hell side:

https://www.voanews.com/a/egypt-expresses-opposition-to-allowing-palestinians-from-gaza-into-sinai/7310915.html

dajo9 said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

Just to make the domestic side of all this more murky:

House Republicans rolled out the 13-page bill on Monday, which would completely offer this aide to Israel by rescinding the $14.3 billion in Adie to Israel from the Inflation Reduction Act passed last year. Specifically, the bill targets some of the $80 billion the package allocated toward the Internal Revenue Service for audits on wealthy individuals. It also doesn't address any aide to Gaza post-whatever Israel is doing.

---

DOA

But on brand for Republicans to make this about supporting wealthy donors and big business. The gay hating Speaker specifically wants to remove investments towards a free e-filing service that would save average Americans billions but take revenue away from companies like H&R Block. It would also help rich tax cheats.

Everything Minot, movielover, and the others have been voting for.

---

You still need the House to approve aide. GOP will get something. Just that the optics make the GOP look ugly.

---

I'm against aid for Israel so it's all good for me. But I understand aid for Israel will be part of the compromise to get aid for Ukraine.

---

The GOP will get something for aid for both that is budget related. They likely are holding are foreign affair's interests hostage. I can't recall when this last happened. Used to be foreign affairs were off the table.

sycasey said:

---

I really don't think it's safe to assume that electoral support would fall by the exact amount the polling suggests. Especially since Joe Biden's ultimate opponent is not likely to have any more pro-Palestine a position than he does.

---

Assuming:

a) That there is only a binary Vote For Trump/Vote Against Trump choice
b) That Democrats are entitled to votes, rather than having to earn them

is why Democrats lose so many elections.

wifeisafurd said:

---

10% For The Big Guy said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

10% For The Big Guy said:

---

Even CNN war enthusiast and former AIPAC newsletter editor Wolf Blitzer is taken aback by Israel's disregard of the sixth commandment.

CNN's Wolf Blitzer: You knew that there were innocent civilians in that refugee camp, right?

IDF spox: This is the tragedy of war. We told them to move south.

Blitzer: So you decided to drop the bomb anyway.

IDF spox: We’re doing everything we can to minimize civilian deaths. pic.twitter.com/oAtW7jV0pc

— Justin Baragona (@justinbaragona) October 31, 2023

🚨 Israel just massacred yet another “large number” of civilians by bombing a crowded refugee camp.@CNN opens their story by saying Israel was “targeting a Hamas commander,” as if it's a statement of fact.

They offer no proof of this & seem to be simply parroting the IDF: pic.twitter.com/PbKysAVQ4X

— Decensored News (@decensorednews) October 31, 2023

---

Just to complete the reporting: Israel killed the targeted commander, who led the attack on Israel that triggered all this, and also blew about a series of Hamas tunnels with bunker busting armaments.

IDF says Jabaliya strike killed top Hamas commander, collapsed terror tunnels
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-jabaliya-strike-killed-top-hamas-commander-collapsed-terror-tunnels/

---

LMAO

WIAF counters a tweet saying there was no evidence other than parroting the IDF by posting a story that......parrots the IDF

---

NY Times also.https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/31/world/middleeast/israel-airstrike-gaza-jabaliya.html?smid=em-share

---

Quote:

---

Israel said it killed a Hamas leader at a refugee camp, but many other people were wounded and killed, Hamas said.

---

On a forum full of some of the dumbest lawyers on the planet, does it bother you being the dumbest?

No wonder it's so easy to sell propaganda to Americans when our supposed best and brightest struggle so hard with reading.

Hundreds killed in the bombing of a refugee camp.



Not much debate about missing craters or death tolls here.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/31/middleeast/jabalya-blast-gaza-intl/index.html

Quote:

---

An Israeli strike targeting a Hamas commander in the densely populated Jabalya refugee camp in northern Gaza has left catastrophic damage and killed a large number of people, according to eyewitnesses and medics in the enclave.

The devastation wrought by the strike triggered a fresh groundswell of grief over spiraling civilian casualties, as Gazans awoke to another communications blackout Wednesday morning.
Survivors and eyewitness spoke of apocalyptic scenes in the aftermath of the strike, which tore a massive crater through the middle of the crowded camp.

"I was waiting in line to buy bread when suddenly and without any prior warning seven to eight missiles fell," an eyewitness, Mohammad Ibrahim, told CNN.

"There were seven to eight huge holes in the ground, full of killed people, body parts all over the place," he said. "It felt like the end of the world."

Eyewitness Mohammad Al Aswad described a "horrific scene" in the aftermath of the strike, telling CNN that he ran to the refugee camp to check on family after hearing the missiles land.

"Children were carrying other injured children and running, with grey dust filling the air. Bodies were hanging on the rubble, many of them unrecognized. Some were bleeding and others were burnt," Al Aswad told CNN by telephone.
[url=https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/31/middleeast/map-israel-ground-operation-gaza-military-movement-dg][/url]
People in the area were hysterical, he added. "I saw women screaming and confused. They didn't know whether to cry for losing their children or run and look for them, especially since many children were playing in the neighborhood."

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

Hamas seems to get a pass.

---

How exactly is Hamas getting a pass?

oski003 said:

---

KPG said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

KPG said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

Less a shift to the right and more a human reaction to having your citizens burned alive, women raped, children beheaded, citizens kidnapped, etc. The 2nd Intifada wasn't a basket of roses but this invasion and the killing spree is next level stuff.

---

Oh well in that case let's just greenlight killing them all I guess? Or did you have a specific number in mind for the appropriate human reaction? Clearly it's something higher than 8,000.

---

We could ask Hamas to answer that question - since they innately endanger Palestinian lives by refusing to allow them to move, store their weapons near civilian sites, keep humanitarian aid for themselves, and put their HQ underneath hospitals - but I suspect that would not be satisfying to some since it doesn't blame Israel.

---

I'm just going to put you down for the Lindsay Graham answer then I guess of "No, there shouldn't be a limit to civilian casualties".

Listen, if I thought for one minute that completely eradicating Hamas by killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians would then lead to safety for Israel and self-determination and prosperity for the Palestinian people, then I'd at least consider the price. But you are absolutely delusional of you think this is the path towards regional safety and stability. This isn't a strategy, this is ugly revenge. If you think that killing tens of thousands of refugees and civilians won't sow the seeds to create the next Hamas, you have the thoughtspan of a goldfish, the political instincts of a US Senator, and the stock portfolio of a Raytheon Board Member.

Bolivia is now eliminating diplomatic ties with Israel. Chile is recalling their embassador. International legitimacy is waning. The Houthi's are ramping up their war. The Iron Dome is depleted, Hamas still has 2/3rds of their rockets, and Hezbollah has tens of thousands and has been systematically targeting security and monitoring technology on the northern front, leaving Israel largely blind. Indiscriminately murdering Palestinians with no regard for proportionality is moving Israel closer to a pariah state than a secure democracy.

You guys think I come on here to bash Israel and score woke points, but there is no path that will lead more quickly to Israel's actual existential threat then continuing to support a far right religious extremist government in their quest to murder a colonized people.

---

If Hamas would surrender, this would all stop. If they want to fight, perhaps they can meet on the battlefield Braveheart style instead of constant terrorist attacks from civilian centers.

---

Whether it is in Ukraine or Israel, why do some people think that people who are being repressed need to surrender in order to stop injustices or that the injustices will cease once a military surrender occurs?

dimitrig said:

---

oski003 said:

---

KPG said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

KPG said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

Less a shift to the right and more a human reaction to having your citizens burned alive, women raped, children beheaded, citizens kidnapped, etc. The 2nd Intifada wasn't a basket of roses but this invasion and the killing spree is next level stuff.

---

Oh well in that case let's just greenlight killing them all I guess? Or did you have a specific number in mind for the appropriate human reaction? Clearly it's something higher than 8,000.

---

We could ask Hamas to answer that question - since they innately endanger Palestinian lives by refusing to allow them to move, store their weapons near civilian sites, keep humanitarian aid for themselves, and put their HQ underneath hospitals - but I suspect that would not be satisfying to some since it doesn't blame Israel.

---

I'm just going to put you down for the Lindsay Graham answer then I guess of "No, there shouldn't be a limit to civilian casualties".

Listen, if I thought for one minute that completely eradicating Hamas by killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians would then lead to safety for Israel and self-determination and prosperity for the Palestinian people, then I'd at least consider the price. But you are absolutely delusional of you think this is the path towards regional safety and stability. This isn't a strategy, this is ugly revenge. If you think that killing tens of thousands of refugees and civilians won't sow the seeds to create the next Hamas, you have the thoughtspan of a goldfish, the political instincts of a US Senator, and the stock portfolio of a Raytheon Board Member.

Bolivia is now eliminating diplomatic ties with Israel. Chile is recalling their embassador. International legitimacy is waning. The Houthi's are ramping up their war. The Iron Dome is depleted, Hamas still has 2/3rds of their rockets, and Hezbollah has tens of thousands and has been systematically targeting security and monitoring technology on the northern front, leaving Israel largely blind. Indiscriminately murdering Palestinians with no regard for proportionality is moving Israel closer to a pariah state than a secure democracy.

You guys think I come on here to bash Israel and score woke points, but there is no path that will lead more quickly to Israel's actual existential threat then continuing to support a far right religious extremist government in their quest to murder a colonized people.

---

If Hamas would surrender, this would all stop. If they want to fight, perhaps they can meet on the battlefield Braveheart style instead of constant terrorist attacks from civilian centers.

---

Whether it is in Ukraine or Israel, why do some people think that people who are being repressed need to surrender in order to stop injustices or that the injustices will cease once a military surrender occurs?

---

Hamas is not the Palestinians and Palestinians are not Hamas.
Palestinians are repressed, not Hamas.

dimitrig said:

---

oski003 said:

---

If Hamas would surrender, this would all stop. If they want to fight, perhaps they can meet on the battlefield Braveheart style instead of constant terrorist attacks from civilian centers.

---

Whether it is in Ukraine or Israel, why do some people think that people who are being repressed need to surrender in order to stop injustices or that the injustices will cease once a military surrender occurs?

---

Ukraine and Gaza have nothing in common.

KPG said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

KPG said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

Less a shift to the right and more a human reaction to having your citizens burned alive, women raped, children beheaded, citizens kidnapped, etc. The 2nd Intifada wasn't a basket of roses but this invasion and the killing spree is next level stuff.

---

Oh well in that case let's just greenlight killing them all I guess? Or did you have a specific number in mind for the appropriate human reaction? Clearly it's something higher than 8,000.

---

We could ask Hamas to answer that question - since they innately endanger Palestinian lives by refusing to allow them to move, store their weapons near civilian sites, keep humanitarian aid for themselves, and put their HQ underneath hospitals - but I suspect that would not be satisfying to some since it doesn't blame Israel.

---

I'm just going to put you down for the Lindsay Graham answer then I guess of "No, there shouldn't be a limit to civilian casualties".

Listen, if I thought for one minute that completely eradicating Hamas by killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians would then lead to safety for Israel and self-determination and prosperity for the Palestinian people, then I'd at least consider the price. But you are absolutely delusional of you think this is the path towards regional safety and stability. This isn't a strategy, this is ugly revenge. If you think that killing tens of thousands of refugees and civilians won't sow the seeds to create the next Hamas, you have the thoughtspan of a goldfish, the political instincts of a US Senator, and the stock portfolio of a Raytheon Board Member.

Bolivia is now eliminating diplomatic ties with Israel. Chile is recalling their embassador. International legitimacy is waning. The Houthi's are ramping up their war. The Iron Dome is depleted, Hamas still has 2/3rds of their rockets, and Hezbollah has tens of thousands and has been systematically targeting security and monitoring technology on the northern front, leaving Israel largely blind. Indiscriminately murdering Palestinians with no regard for proportionality is moving Israel closer to a pariah state than a secure democracy.

You guys think I come on here to bash Israel and score woke points, but there is no path that will lead more quickly to Israel's actual existential threat then continuing to support a far right religious extremist government in their quest to murder a colonized people.

---

KPG raises an important point. Israel being able to eradicate Hamas has to come at cost to Israel and international community of taking care of what remains when they finish. The human cost of Israel's attempt to eradicate Hamas, given that Palestinians are currently unable to leave Gaza is of grave concern, and even just once the war stops, the is an immediate health crises, no working infrastructure, no water, etc. And by
eliminating what little Gaza had for government, even if a bad government, results in complete anarchy.
Following days of ferocious violence in Israel and Gaza, there is only talk of winners and losers - that discussion has to stop.

If Israel wants peace and International support, it and the international community have to help arrive at effective solution. Strangely, the US, China, Russia, and several of the big players in the area envisage an independent State of Palestine alongside the State of Israel to bring about peace and stability. And even Israel's current leader has supported a two state solution, though what that means to him seems to change daily. But he really doesn't want those in Gaza to become Israeli citizens or he will be voted out of power,

But if Netanyahu's government successfully eliminates Hamas, Netanyahu needs to suck-up that he will have a strong neighbor that has the ability to thrive and have an independent government that Israel can work with, like Egypt. And they have to be strong enough to fend off Hamas type groups. Biden and his advisors better have a good idea what that looks like, and Biden had to be prepared to force the joint Israel cabinet to require the removal of Israel's responsibility for life in the Gaza Strip, and the establishment of a new security reality for the citizens of Israel, by the development of a strong state to be a partner such as Egypt. (Egypt clearly wants nothing to do with the Palestinians). That means allowing those in Gaza to have working infrastructure, commerce, etc.

Into the political vacuum now steps the PLO - no one else is left. Fatah leaders who are running the PLO are facing a moment that would define their future. They need to lose their corruptive past and lead. If they don't change the previous approach, I think Fatah will disappear. Fatah's position on the war as "neutral", and I suppose they in fact collaborated with Israel on finding Hamas, can't be popular with those who live in Gaza. Fatah needs to gain the confidence of the Gaza people despite this, and that means getting concessions from Israel and financial aid from the world. Netanyahu may have won this battle, but it comes at a cost of concessions to and cooperation with the PLO. It was said only Nixon could come to China, well only Netanyahu can lead his country to peace by working with the PLO for a stable and cooperative neighbor.

sycasey said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

sycasey said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

Hamas seems to get a pass.

---

How exactly is Hamas getting a pass?

---

When Palestinians die there's generally an immediate anti-Israeli reaction.

---

Generally among who? College activists? Twitter randos?

Wake me up when the major Western governments actually reduce support for Israel.

---

Well you asked. I get that from you response you live in the US, and the US and its allies, including Egypt and various counties in the Arabian Peninsula take a somewhat disdainful look at Palestinians, who typically these days have groups who are supported by Iran that are ruling through brute force or are exerting influence. Sure, Palestinians feel there's no one paying attention to them, the western international community ignores them, and now the proposed alliance between Israel and Saudi Arabia would demonstrate they are ignored even further. So Hamas and Iran supported groups exploit that to get attention and credit by a brutal attack, as well as to try to marginalize their opponent, the Palestinian Authority.

But that is not the messaging outside the US/Western sphere of influence. Protests have swept across many Muslim counties in support of the Palestinians in Gaza in the face of an ongoing Israeli military assault and horrifying living conditions. Scenes of protesters burning the Israeli and the U.S. flags and expressing sympathies to Hamas militants have surfaced all over social media. I might add there was much celebration of the initial Hamas attack. Dehumanizing Israeli civilians has gained in popularity among certain Arab groups, but I might add there is dehumanizing Gaza residents in certain quarters of Western media.

There are biases in media - it is not like that film of the terrorist rocket misfiring and hitting that hospital still has made a dent on what Al Jazeera's (the Fox News of the Moslem world) biased coverage or by anyone else in the Arab or Muslim regions. Just as the US media has biases, so too has the media in the Arab and Muslim worlds. Make no mistake, there is a large group that is pro-Palestinian and promotes their cause on a daily basis. Just so you get the more restrained feel from a network with huge circulation prints:

Palestinians are showing that they will not be erased | GazaAl Jazeerahttps://www.aljazeera.com opinions 2023/10/10

If you want, I can show the articles that report daily about Israeli atrocities, whether is Gaza or border areas, not to mention atrocities committee by the US. Or you can just Google them. You have to move outside the western press and these articles are very mainstream. You are wrong to think there is not significant an anti-israel or even anti-US (or US allies) anti-reaction.
[url=https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjG1bDs3qOCAxVoI0QIHTh-AKg4HhAWegQIDxAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.aljazeera.com%2Fopinions%2F2023%2F10%2F10%2Fpalestinians-are-showing-that-they-will-not-be-erased&usg=AOvVaw3QKjnhQmb3m58NugTbXEfS&opi=89978449][/url]

Netanyahu may not last, Biden and aides increasingly believe - POLITICO


https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/01/biden-administration-thinks-netanyahu-may-not-last-politically-00124849

Blinken to visit Israel on Friday, says 'revitalized' PA should govern Gaza after war | The Times of Israel


https://www.timesofisrael.com/blinken-to-visit-israel-on-friday-says-revitalized-pa-should-govern-gaza-after-war/


"Critics of Netanyahu have accused him of strengthening Hamas over the past 15 years in order to divide the Palestinian factions and weaken the more moderate PA, which recognizes Israel and supports a two-state solution."

wifeisafurd said:

---

sycasey said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

sycasey said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

Hamas seems to get a pass.

---

How exactly is Hamas getting a pass?

---

When Palestinians die there's generally an immediate anti-Israeli reaction.

---

Generally among who? College activists? Twitter randos?

Wake me up when the major Western governments actually reduce support for Israel.

---

Well you asked. I get that from you response you live in the US, and the US and its allies, including Egypt and various counties in the Arabian Peninsula take a somewhat disdainful look at Palestinians, who typically these days have groups who are supported by Iran that are ruling through brute force or are exerting influence. Sure, Palestinians feel there's no one paying attention to them, the western international community ignores them, and now the proposed alliance between Israel and Saudi Arabia would demonstrate they are ignored even further. So Hamas and Iran supported groups exploit that to get attention and credit by a brutal attack, as well as to try to marginalize their opponent, the Palestinian Authority.

But that is not the messaging outside the US/Western sphere of influence. Protests have swept across many Muslim counties in support of the Palestinians in Gaza in the face of an ongoing Israeli military assault and horrifying living conditions. Scenes of protesters burning the Israeli and the U.S. flags and expressing sympathies to Hamas militants have surfaced all over social media. I might add there was much celebration of the initial Hamas attack. Dehumanizing Israeli civilians has gained in popularity among certain Arab groups, but I might add there is dehumanizing Gaza residents in certain quarters of Western media.

There are biases in media - it is not like that film of the terrorist rocket misfiring and hitting that hospital still has made a dent on what Al Jazeera's (the Fox News of the Moslem world) biased coverage or by anyone else in the Arab or Muslim regions. Just as the US media has biases, so too has the media in the Arab and Muslim worlds. Make no mistake, there is a large group that is pro-Palestinian and promotes their cause on a daily basis. Just so you get the more restrained feel from a network with huge circulation prints:

Palestinians are showing that they will not be erased | GazaAl Jazeerahttps://www.aljazeera.com opinions 2023/10/10

If you want, I can show the articles that report daily about Israeli atrocities, whether is Gaza or border areas, not to mention atrocities committee by the US. Or you can just Google them. You have to move outside the western press and these articles are very mainstream. You are wrong to think there is not significant an anti-israel or even anti-US (or US allies) anti-reaction.

---

Yes, I am referring to the US and US-allied countries. I also assume that's what tequila4kapp meant, but if not he can let me know.

I'm sure that across Arab and Muslim countries there is a much stronger anti-Israel bias, but given that it's US support propping up Israel's military campaign right now I think the opinions in our sphere are unusually relevant here.

bearister said:

---

Netanyahu may not last, Biden and aides increasingly believe - POLITICO


https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/01/biden-administration-thinks-netanyahu-may-not-last-politically-00124849

Blinken to visit Israel on Friday, says 'revitalized' PA should govern Gaza after war | The Times of Israel


https://www.timesofisrael.com/blinken-to-visit-israel-on-friday-says-revitalized-pa-should-govern-gaza-after-war/


"Critics of Netanyahu have accused him of strengthening Hamas over the past 15 years in order to divide the Palestinian factions and weaken the more moderate PA, which recognizes Israel and supports a two-state solution."

---

First, while I read Politico, much of what they say never comes to pass, because they can't get past their own agenda. Israel at this moment is so angry over the Hamas attack, if Netanyahu left, you probably get someone even more hawkish. The Israeli electorate has become even more conservative over time, some of this due to immigration patterns. The thought that you get a liberal in the PM office is laughable and a figment of the imagination of the liberals Politico quotes. After this attack. Israelis want blood.

Second, Biden and Netanyahu go way back and our personal friends. They may not agree on everything, but the devil you know is better than the devil you don't. if Netanyahu walks, the next PM very likely could be from the ultranationalist or ultraorthodox Jewish parties. There is a reason Biden went all in on Netanyahu. Moreover,, I don't think a liberal PM can get a mandate for the concessions necessary for peace. Netanyahu likely can.

If you want to know the US agenda, see the article of Blinken's visit. This is all about removing Hamas and installing a stronger PA. Thanks for posting Bearrister.

sycasey said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

sycasey said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

sycasey said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

Hamas seems to get a pass.

---

How exactly is Hamas getting a pass?

---

When Palestinians die there's generally an immediate anti-Israeli reaction.

---

Generally among who? College activists? Twitter randos?

Wake me up when the major Western governments actually reduce support for Israel.

---

Well you asked. I get that from you response you live in the US, and the US and its allies, including Egypt and various counties in the Arabian Peninsula take a somewhat disdainful look at Palestinians, who typically these days have groups who are supported by Iran that are ruling through brute force or are exerting influence. Sure, Palestinians feel there's no one paying attention to them, the western international community ignores them, and now the proposed alliance between Israel and Saudi Arabia would demonstrate they are ignored even further. So Hamas and Iran supported groups exploit that to get attention and credit by a brutal attack, as well as to try to marginalize their opponent, the Palestinian Authority.

But that is not the messaging outside the US/Western sphere of influence. Protests have swept across many Muslim counties in support of the Palestinians in Gaza in the face of an ongoing Israeli military assault and horrifying living conditions. Scenes of protesters burning the Israeli and the U.S. flags and expressing sympathies to Hamas militants have surfaced all over social media. I might add there was much celebration of the initial Hamas attack. Dehumanizing Israeli civilians has gained in popularity among certain Arab groups, but I might add there is dehumanizing Gaza residents in certain quarters of Western media.

There are biases in media - it is not like that film of the terrorist rocket misfiring and hitting that hospital still has made a dent on what Al Jazeera's (the Fox News of the Moslem world) biased coverage or by anyone else in the Arab or Muslim regions. Just as the US media has biases, so too has the media in the Arab and Muslim worlds. Make no mistake, there is a large group that is pro-Palestinian and promotes their cause on a daily basis. Just so you get the more restrained feel from a network with huge circulation prints:

Palestinians are showing that they will not be erased | GazaAl Jazeerahttps://www.aljazeera.com opinions 2023/10/10

If you want, I can show the articles that report daily about Israeli atrocities, whether is Gaza or border areas, not to mention atrocities committee by the US. Or you can just Google them. You have to move outside the western press and these articles are very mainstream. You are wrong to think there is not significant an anti-israel or even anti-US (or US allies) anti-reaction.

---

Yes, I am referring to the US and US-allied countries. I also assume that's what tequila4kapp meant, but if not he can let me know.

I'm sure that across Arab and Muslim countries there is a much stronger anti-Israel bias, but given that it's US support propping up Israel's military campaign right now I think the opinions in our sphere are unusually relevant here.

---

He should, because my impression is that is not where he was going. US and Western media will always take the western position, and that is true even beyond Israel.

tequila4kapp said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

oski003 said:

---

KPG said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

KPG said:

---

tequila4kapp said:

---

Less a shift to the right and more a human reaction to having your citizens burned alive, women raped, children beheaded, citizens kidnapped, etc. The 2nd Intifada wasn't a basket of roses but this invasion and the killing spree is next level stuff.

---

Oh well in that case let's just greenlight killing them all I guess? Or did you have a specific number in mind for the appropriate human reaction? Clearly it's something higher than 8,000.

---

We could ask Hamas to answer that question - since they innately endanger Palestinian lives by refusing to allow them to move, store their weapons near civilian sites, keep humanitarian aid for themselves, and put their HQ underneath hospitals - but I suspect that would not be satisfying to some since it doesn't blame Israel.

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I'm just going to put you down for the Lindsay Graham answer then I guess of "No, there shouldn't be a limit to civilian casualties".

Listen, if I thought for one minute that completely eradicating Hamas by killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians would then lead to safety for Israel and self-determination and prosperity for the Palestinian people, then I'd at least consider the price. But you are absolutely delusional of you think this is the path towards regional safety and stability. This isn't a strategy, this is ugly revenge. If you think that killing tens of thousands of refugees and civilians won't sow the seeds to create the next Hamas, you have the thoughtspan of a goldfish, the political instincts of a US Senator, and the stock portfolio of a Raytheon Board Member.

Bolivia is now eliminating diplomatic ties with Israel. Chile is recalling their embassador. International legitimacy is waning. The Houthi's are ramping up their war. The Iron Dome is depleted, Hamas still has 2/3rds of their rockets, and Hezbollah has tens of thousands and has been systematically targeting security and monitoring technology on the northern front, leaving Israel largely blind. Indiscriminately murdering Palestinians with no regard for proportionality is moving Israel closer to a pariah state than a secure democracy.

You guys think I come on here to bash Israel and score woke points, but there is no path that will lead more quickly to Israel's actual existential threat then continuing to support a far right religious extremist government in their quest to murder a colonized people.

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If Hamas would surrender, this would all stop. If they want to fight, perhaps they can meet on the battlefield Braveheart style instead of constant terrorist attacks from civilian centers.

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Whether it is in Ukraine or Israel, why do some people think that people who are being repressed need to surrender in order to stop injustices or that the injustices will cease once a military surrender occurs?

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Hamas is not the Palestinians and Palestinians are not Hamas.
Palestinians are repressed, not Hamas.

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Haven't they voted them in, or did they use rigged Dominion machines too?

Close to 40,000 buildings in Gaza have been bombarded so far:

FAFO.

The Arafat family could return a few Billion to rebuild.

movielover said:

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FAFO.

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Support for Israel in the West is coming down as fast as these Gaza neighborhoods. In a multipolar world with rising regional powers like Turkey and Iran, Israel might be the party that will be finding out the consequences of its massive civilian bombing campaign.

I would refer you to MacGregor's analysis on the situation there and the potential for a massive global escalation. Just as the war in Ukraine seems to be coming to an end next year, an even bigger crisis has flared up in the middle east...