Foreign citizens killed/missing in Israel after hamas attack:

🇺🇸 USA - 9 dead
🇨🇦 Canada - 1 dead, 2 missing
🇬🇧 Great Britain - more than 10 dead or missing
🇫🇷 France - one dead, several missing
🇹🇭 Thailand - 12 dead, 11 missing
🇳🇵 Nepal - 10 dead
🇩🇪 Germany - number of…

— Banrakas Baba (@BanrakasBaba) October 9, 2023

socaltownie said:

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kal kommie said:

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dajo9 said:

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kal kommie said:

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dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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socaltownie said:

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At the core I really do believe that is the core challenge - that the majority in Israel want it as a "jewish state" even though demographics are against them and that too many in the Palestinian community want Palestine as a "muslim state" even though that ignores the reality of 8 million jews without really an enlightenment inspired polical culture that elevates tolerance to a central position. I readily admit that such a view doesn't get us to a solution.

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Yeah, I generally agree with that. Ethnostates don't work in the long run, but Israel and Palestine want to be ethnostates. Not sure what changes the mindset. Maybe people get tired of all the fighting.

---

A pox on both their houses. America should stay out of it.

---

On this point: what is the case for the US continuing to support Israel? Does it benefit us in some material way?

---

No. In fact it harms us. Gets us involved in things that should have nothing to do with us.

---

It is impossible for America to stay out of it because we are already in it. We are already not simply involved but integral to what has happened there for 50 years. We provide critical military, intelligence, economic, technological, diplomatic and ideological support for Israel in massive quantities.

---

Every journey begins with a single step

---

I'd love for that step to be taken but unfortunately I'm betting on steps in the other direction. Our entire political class is allied with Israel. Approx 98% of the House and 100% of the Senate were supporters (tacit or explicit) of the status quo even before Hamas' assault on Saturday. Opposing the alliance with Israel will only become even harder now politically.

---

Which is why I have never understood the political actions by the Palestinians. It has struck me that they would make FAR more progress toward what at least SOME of them want (others I am convinced WANT the status quo because of personally benefiting from aid from the gulf states) if they engaged in non-violent protests. While the provisional IRA overtook NICRA during the early 1970s absent the memory of things like Bloody sunday I don't think you see the pressure on London and Ulster to reach a settlement. 10,000 Palestinian mothers cutting through the fence to reclaim homes and forcing Israel to resort to violence would not be a pretty scene on Western TV

---

I agree with you socaltownie that non-violent protests would seem to be the way to go but I suspect our perspective is probably flawed by how far removed we are from the scene.

In 2018 a massive protest (sometimes called the March of Return) began in Gaza that was originally organized by independent activists but soon endorsed by Hamas. It was a series of demonstrations at the security fence that went on for nearly two years. The largest demonstration had approx 30k people and many had over 10k. The demonstrations were overwhelmingly non-violent but even a tiny proportion of violent people in such a crowd can overshadow the enormous majority and provide cover for violent suppression. Over 100 Palestinians protesters had been killed before even a single Israeli soldier had been wounded. In the end over 200 Palestinians were killed and thousands were wounded while a single Israeli soldier was killed and about a dozen Israelis were wounded.

The protests had virtually no impact in the US. The Trump administration stated its support for Israel and the mass media gave ambiguous and limited coverage of the events. Only a handful of congressmen spoke up in support of the protest. What sympathetic coverage there was in the mass media was harshly criticized by Israel and the Zionist lobby in the US as defenses of terrorism.

Earlier attempts at non-violent protest were similarly unsuccessful. The famous First Intifada from 1987-1993 began with civil disobedience campaigns and demonstrations with generally limited violence like stone throwing at IDF buildings but as with the March of Return the minority violent components of the protests gave Israel license to violently crackdown on the entire campaign. In the first month of the protests no Israelis were killed while 22 Palestinians were killed by the IDF but the violence by the demonstrators escalated in the months that followed. By the end nearly 1,500 Palestinians had been killed by Israelis and almost 200 Israelis killed by Palestinians, about half of them civilians. The intifada ended with the signing of the Oslo agreement, a defeat for the protesters given how little Oslo addressed the aims of the intifada.

Maybe the problem is the non-violent demonstrations aren't tactically focused enough. Maybe if thousands of women unaccompanied by men did march unarmed right up to the fence the IDF would be too afraid to open fire on them or would finally trigger a backlash so severe that something would change but somehow I doubt the play would go as smoothly as we would draw it up on the chalkboard.

kal kommie said:

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socaltownie said:

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kal kommie said:

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dajo9 said:

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kal kommie said:

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dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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socaltownie said:

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At the core I really do believe that is the core challenge - that the majority in Israel want it as a "jewish state" even though demographics are against them and that too many in the Palestinian community want Palestine as a "muslim state" even though that ignores the reality of 8 million jews without really an enlightenment inspired polical culture that elevates tolerance to a central position. I readily admit that such a view doesn't get us to a solution.

---

Yeah, I generally agree with that. Ethnostates don't work in the long run, but Israel and Palestine want to be ethnostates. Not sure what changes the mindset. Maybe people get tired of all the fighting.

---

A pox on both their houses. America should stay out of it.

---

On this point: what is the case for the US continuing to support Israel? Does it benefit us in some material way?

---

No. In fact it harms us. Gets us involved in things that should have nothing to do with us.

---

It is impossible for America to stay out of it because we are already in it. We are already not simply involved but integral to what has happened there for 50 years. We provide critical military, intelligence, economic, technological, diplomatic and ideological support for Israel in massive quantities.

---

Every journey begins with a single step

---

I'd love for that step to be taken but unfortunately I'm betting on steps in the other direction. Our entire political class is allied with Israel. Approx 98% of the House and 100% of the Senate were supporters (tacit or explicit) of the status quo even before Hamas' assault on Saturday. Opposing the alliance with Israel will only become even harder now politically.

---

Which is why I have never understood the political actions by the Palestinians. It has struck me that they would make FAR more progress toward what at least SOME of them want (others I am convinced WANT the status quo because of personally benefiting from aid from the gulf states) if they engaged in non-violent protests. While the provisional IRA overtook NICRA during the early 1970s absent the memory of things like Bloody sunday I don't think you see the pressure on London and Ulster to reach a settlement. 10,000 Palestinian mothers cutting through the fence to reclaim homes and forcing Israel to resort to violence would not be a pretty scene on Western TV

---

I agree with you socaltownie that non-violent protests would seem to be the way to go but I suspect our perspective is probably flawed by how far removed we are from the scene.

In 2018 a massive protest (sometimes called the March of Return) began in Gaza that was originally organized by independent activists but soon endorsed by Hamas. It was a series of demonstrations at the security fence that went on for nearly two years. The largest demonstration had approx 30k people and many had over 10k. The demonstrations were overwhelmingly non-violent but even a tiny proportion of violent people in such a crowd can overshadow the enormous majority and provide cover for violent suppression. Over 100 Palestinians protesters had been killed before even a single Israeli soldier had been wounded. In the end over 200 Palestinians were killed and thousands were wounded while a single Israeli soldier was killed and about a dozen Israelis were wounded.

The protests had virtually no impact in the US. The Trump administration stated its support for Israel and the mass media gave ambiguous and limited coverage of the events. Only a handful of congressmen spoke up in support of the protest. What sympathetic coverage there was in the mass media was harshly criticized by Israel and the Zionist lobby in the US as defenses of terrorism.

Earlier attempts at non-violent protest were similarly unsuccessful. The famous First Intifada from 1987-1993 began with civil disobedience campaigns and demonstrations with generally limited violence like stone throwing at IDF buildings but as with the March of Return the minority violent components of the protests gave Israel license to violently crackdown on the entire campaign. In the first month of the protests no Israelis were killed while 22 Palestinians were killed by the IDF but the violence by the demonstrators escalated in the months that followed. By the end nearly 1,500 Palestinians had been killed by Israelis and almost 200 Israelis killed by Palestinians, about half of them civilians. The intifada ended with the signing of the Oslo agreement, a defeat for the protesters given how little Oslo addressed the aims of the intifada.

Maybe the problem is the non-violent demonstrations aren't tactically focused enough. Maybe if thousands of women unaccompanied by men did march unarmed right up to the fence the IDF would be too afraid to open fire on them or would finally trigger a backlash so severe that something would change but somehow I doubt the play would go as smoothly as we would draw it up on the chalkboard

---

I did not know about some of this.

socaltownie said:

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kal kommie said:

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dajo9 said:

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kal kommie said:

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dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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socaltownie said:

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At the core I really do believe that is the core challenge - that the majority in Israel want it as a "jewish state" even though demographics are against them and that too many in the Palestinian community want Palestine as a "muslim state" even though that ignores the reality of 8 million jews without really an enlightenment inspired polical culture that elevates tolerance to a central position. I readily admit that such a view doesn't get us to a solution.

---

Yeah, I generally agree with that. Ethnostates don't work in the long run, but Israel and Palestine want to be ethnostates. Not sure what changes the mindset. Maybe people get tired of all the fighting.

---

A pox on both their houses. America should stay out of it.

---

On this point: what is the case for the US continuing to support Israel? Does it benefit us in some material way?

---

No. In fact it harms us. Gets us involved in things that should have nothing to do with us.

---

It is impossible for America to stay out of it because we are already in it. We are already not simply involved but integral to what has happened there for 50 years. We provide critical military, intelligence, economic, technological, diplomatic and ideological support for Israel in massive quantities.

---

Every journey begins with a single step

---

I'd love for that step to be taken but unfortunately I'm betting on steps in the other direction. Our entire political class is allied with Israel. Approx 98% of the House and 100% of the Senate were supporters (tacit or explicit) of the status quo even before Hamas' assault on Saturday. Opposing the alliance with Israel will only become even harder now politically.

---

Which is why I have never understood the political actions by the Palestinians. It has struck me that they would make FAR more progress toward what at least SOME of them want (others I am convinced WANT the status quo because of personally benefiting from aid from the gulf states) if they engaged in non-violent protests. While the provisional IRA overtook NICRA during the early 1970s absent the memory of things like Bloody sunday I don't think you see the pressure on London and Ulster to reach a settlement. 10,000 Palestinian mothers cutting through the fence to reclaim homes and forcing Israel to resort to violence would not be a pretty scene on Western TV

---

I effectively posted the same thing this morning then deleted it. Your qualifier of "at least some" helps, but upon reflection non violent social disobedience is incompatible with wanting to destroy a nation and its people. If Palestinians acknowledged Israel's right to exist then I think your statement (and mine) would hold water.

kal kommie said:

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socaltownie said:

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kal kommie said:

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dajo9 said:

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kal kommie said:

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dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

sycasey said:

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socaltownie said:

---

At the core I really do believe that is the core challenge - that the majority in Israel want it as a "jewish state" even though demographics are against them and that too many in the Palestinian community want Palestine as a "muslim state" even though that ignores the reality of 8 million jews without really an enlightenment inspired polical culture that elevates tolerance to a central position. I readily admit that such a view doesn't get us to a solution.

---

Yeah, I generally agree with that. Ethnostates don't work in the long run, but Israel and Palestine want to be ethnostates. Not sure what changes the mindset. Maybe people get tired of all the fighting.

---

A pox on both their houses. America should stay out of it.

---

On this point: what is the case for the US continuing to support Israel? Does it benefit us in some material way?

---

No. In fact it harms us. Gets us involved in things that should have nothing to do with us.

---

It is impossible for America to stay out of it because we are already in it. We are already not simply involved but integral to what has happened there for 50 years. We provide critical military, intelligence, economic, technological, diplomatic and ideological support for Israel in massive quantities.

---

Every journey begins with a single step

---

I'd love for that step to be taken but unfortunately I'm betting on steps in the other direction. Our entire political class is allied with Israel. Approx 98% of the House and 100% of the Senate were supporters (tacit or explicit) of the status quo even before Hamas' assault on Saturday. Opposing the alliance with Israel will only become even harder now politically.

---

Which is why I have never understood the political actions by the Palestinians. It has struck me that they would make FAR more progress toward what at least SOME of them want (others I am convinced WANT the status quo because of personally benefiting from aid from the gulf states) if they engaged in non-violent protests. While the provisional IRA overtook NICRA during the early 1970s absent the memory of things like Bloody sunday I don't think you see the pressure on London and Ulster to reach a settlement. 10,000 Palestinian mothers cutting through the fence to reclaim homes and forcing Israel to resort to violence would not be a pretty scene on Western TV

---

I agree with you socaltownie that non-violent protests would seem to be the way to go but I suspect our perspective is probably flawed by how far removed we are from the scene.

In 2018 a massive protest (sometimes called the March of Return) began in Gaza that was originally organized by independent activists but soon endorsed by Hamas. It was a series of demonstrations at the security fence that went on for nearly two years. The largest demonstration had approx 30k people and many had over 10k. The demonstrations were overwhelmingly non-violent but even a tiny proportion of violent people in such a crowd can overshadow the enormous majority and provide cover for violent suppression. Over 100 Palestinians protesters had been killed before even a single Israeli soldier had been wounded. In the end over 200 Palestinians were killed and thousands were wounded while a single Israeli soldier was killed and about a dozen Israelis were wounded.

The protests had virtually no impact in the US. The Trump administration stated its support for Israel and the mass media gave ambiguous and limited coverage of the events. Only a handful of congressmen spoke up in support of the protest. What sympathetic coverage there was in the mass media was harshly criticized by Israel and the Zionist lobby in the US as defenses of terrorism.

Earlier attempts at non-violent protest were similarly unsuccessful. The famous First Intifada from 1987-1993 began with civil disobedience campaigns and demonstrations with generally limited violence like stone throwing at IDF buildings but as with the March of Return the minority violent components of the protests gave Israel license to violently crackdown on the entire campaign. In the first month of the protests no Israelis were killed while 22 Palestinians were killed by the IDF but the violence by the demonstrators escalated in the months that followed. By the end nearly 1,500 Palestinians had been killed by Israelis and almost 200 Israelis killed by Palestinians, about half of them civilians. The intifada ended with the signing of the Oslo agreement, a defeat for the protesters given how little Oslo addressed the aims of the intifada.

Maybe the problem is the non-violent demonstrations aren't tactically focused enough. Maybe if thousands of women unaccompanied by men did march unarmed right up to the fence the IDF would be too afraid to open fire on them or would finally trigger a backlash so severe that something would change but somehow I doubt the play would go as smoothly as we would draw it up on the chalkboard.

---

There's no such thing as mostly peaceful non violent civil disobedience. A little violence by some undermines everything.

Do Hamas represent the interests of the majority of Palestinians or is there a sense that Hamas has taken the general welfare of the Palestinian people hostage, so to speak?

bearister said:

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This morning I suggested to my wife that the Israeli security lapse seems hard to believe and what if Netanyahu wanted this to happen like some claim FDR knew Pearl Harbor was coming.

Then this:

"In one of the said warnings, Egypt's Intelligence Minister General Abbas Kamel personally called Netanyahu only 10 days before the massive attack that Gazans were likely to do "something unusual, a terrible operation," according to the Ynet news site.

"Unnamed Egyptian officials told the site they were shocked by Netanyahu's indifference to the news and said the premier told the minister the military was "submerged" in troubles in the West Bank."

Netanyahu's tRumpian response: "This is completely fake news."

Egypt intelligence official says Israel ignored repeated warnings of 'something big' | The Times of Israel


https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/

*I don't know whether Egypt's claim of a warning is true or not, but if it's true, Bibi's enemies within will get a spotlight on it.

---

This is idiocy.

After the war is over, there is no way Netanyahu survives this. That will be the case whether or not he was warned by Egypt. He's done though he likely be replaced by someone equally right of center if not further right.

Your post reveals both bias and a deep misunderstanding of how politics work in Israel.

Except I am loath to label several million people holding the same views. I thought a foundational element of the Oslo accords was doing just that

BearHunter said:

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Do Hamas represent the interests of the majority of Palestinians or is there a sense that Hamas has taken the general welfare of the Palestinian people hostage, so to speak?

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I'd say it's impossible to tell, as they don't get to have free and fair elections anymore (in large part because of Hamas).

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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kal kommie said:

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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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Cal88 said:

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No electricity, no food, no fuel for 1 million children. Straight from the horse's mouth. That can't be the civilised world's answer, whatever differences we may have on who did what to whom first or last. https://t.co/UM0xsRJJhs

— Yanis Varoufakis (@yanisvaroufakis) October 9, 2023

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Wikipedia says Gaza has a population of 2 million people. Are half of them children?

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800k (44%) are age 14 or under

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_Palestine#Demographics_of_the_Gaza_Strip

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OK, I stand somewhat corrected. It's not half, but 44% under the age of 15 is a crazy demographic.

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The 50% figure is accurate.
https://www.un.org/unispal/humanitarian-situation-in-the-gaza-strip-fast-facts-ocha-factsheet/

tequila4kapp said:

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kal kommie said:

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socaltownie said:

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kal kommie said:

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dajo9 said:

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kal kommie said:

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dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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socaltownie said:

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At the core I really do believe that is the core challenge - that the majority in Israel want it as a "jewish state" even though demographics are against them and that too many in the Palestinian community want Palestine as a "muslim state" even though that ignores the reality of 8 million jews without really an enlightenment inspired polical culture that elevates tolerance to a central position. I readily admit that such a view doesn't get us to a solution.

---

Yeah, I generally agree with that. Ethnostates don't work in the long run, but Israel and Palestine want to be ethnostates. Not sure what changes the mindset. Maybe people get tired of all the fighting.

---

A pox on both their houses. America should stay out of it.

---

On this point: what is the case for the US continuing to support Israel? Does it benefit us in some material way?

---

No. In fact it harms us. Gets us involved in things that should have nothing to do with us.

---

It is impossible for America to stay out of it because we are already in it. We are already not simply involved but integral to what has happened there for 50 years. We provide critical military, intelligence, economic, technological, diplomatic and ideological support for Israel in massive quantities.

---

Every journey begins with a single step

---

I'd love for that step to be taken but unfortunately I'm betting on steps in the other direction. Our entire political class is allied with Israel. Approx 98% of the House and 100% of the Senate were supporters (tacit or explicit) of the status quo even before Hamas' assault on Saturday. Opposing the alliance with Israel will only become even harder now politically.

---

Which is why I have never understood the political actions by the Palestinians. It has struck me that they would make FAR more progress toward what at least SOME of them want (others I am convinced WANT the status quo because of personally benefiting from aid from the gulf states) if they engaged in non-violent protests. While the provisional IRA overtook NICRA during the early 1970s absent the memory of things like Bloody sunday I don't think you see the pressure on London and Ulster to reach a settlement. 10,000 Palestinian mothers cutting through the fence to reclaim homes and forcing Israel to resort to violence would not be a pretty scene on Western TV

---

I agree with you socaltownie that non-violent protests would seem to be the way to go but I suspect our perspective is probably flawed by how far removed we are from the scene.

In 2018 a massive protest (sometimes called the March of Return) began in Gaza that was originally organized by independent activists but soon endorsed by Hamas. It was a series of demonstrations at the security fence that went on for nearly two years. The largest demonstration had approx 30k people and many had over 10k. The demonstrations were overwhelmingly non-violent but even a tiny proportion of violent people in such a crowd can overshadow the enormous majority and provide cover for violent suppression. Over 100 Palestinians protesters had been killed before even a single Israeli soldier had been wounded. In the end over 200 Palestinians were killed and thousands were wounded while a single Israeli soldier was killed and about a dozen Israelis were wounded.

The protests had virtually no impact in the US. The Trump administration stated its support for Israel and the mass media gave ambiguous and limited coverage of the events. Only a handful of congressmen spoke up in support of the protest. What sympathetic coverage there was in the mass media was harshly criticized by Israel and the Zionist lobby in the US as defenses of terrorism.

Earlier attempts at non-violent protest were similarly unsuccessful. The famous First Intifada from 1987-1993 began with civil disobedience campaigns and demonstrations with generally limited violence like stone throwing at IDF buildings but as with the March of Return the minority violent components of the protests gave Israel license to violently crackdown on the entire campaign. In the first month of the protests no Israelis were killed while 22 Palestinians were killed by the IDF but the violence by the demonstrators escalated in the months that followed. By the end nearly 1,500 Palestinians had been killed by Israelis and almost 200 Israelis killed by Palestinians, about half of them civilians. The intifada ended with the signing of the Oslo agreement, a defeat for the protesters given how little Oslo addressed the aims of the intifada.

Maybe the problem is the non-violent demonstrations aren't tactically focused enough. Maybe if thousands of women unaccompanied by men did march unarmed right up to the fence the IDF would be too afraid to open fire on them or would finally trigger a backlash so severe that something would change but somehow I doubt the play would go as smoothly as we would draw it up on the chalkboard.

---

There's no such thing as mostly peaceful non violent civil disobedience. A little violence by some undermines everything.

---

I'll disagree. There will almost always be people intent on using violence to advance their goals. The questions are: (i) do they represent a large component of the group or are they truly "extremists"; and (ii) do the vast majority of the group expressly and unconditionally repudiate the violence?

At this point, it is hard to point to a significant constituency of Palestinian society (or any significant political leaders) that rejects violence, supports a two state solution, and is willing to negotiate. There is Hamas and the corrupt and feckless PA.

There are Israeli Jewish extremists some of whom are violent. Rabin was killed by a Jew opposed to peace and that person is not alone. The difference is that Israeli and Jewish society largely criticize and reject those tactics. Israel has a very large opposition party some of whom are very anti-Netanyahu and against settlements. Where are the Palestinian moderates? Probably dead.

So my larger point is that "a little" violence is not necessarily the end of peace. The problem here is that it is not "just a little."

sycasey said:

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BearHunter said:

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Do Hamas represent the interests of the majority of Palestinians or is there a sense that Hamas has taken the general welfare of the Palestinian people hostage, so to speak?

---

I'd say it's impossible to tell, as they don't get to have free and fair elections anymore (in large part because of Hamas).

---

“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” Netanyahu told his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy"https://t.co/7lTQs9E5Zf

— Haaretz.com (@haaretzcom) October 9, 2023

It has admittedly been many moons since I've read about and studied it but my recollection is that Ghandi and MLK, Jr taught that any violence by the oppressed undermined the mission; you effectively cannot achieve the 6 points of NVCD when any of your members become violent themselves (and point of clarification, I meant NVCD proper, not just peaceful protests).

wifeisafurd said:

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concordtom said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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The current incursion was initiated for the rather transparent reason of trying to disrupt the normalization of Israeli relationship with Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries being pushed by the Biden Administration. For better or worse, their view was this would bring faster peace to the middle east. Instead, it now seems like just another proxy battle between Saudi and Iran which serves objectives of Hamas leaders financially with money from Iran (just as most aide ended up in PLO leadership pockets years before). A Saudi-Isreaal deal could lead to an infusion of Saudi money for the Palestinian Authority, a more moderate group than Hamas and the loss of money flowing to Hamas leaders.

Expect the Biden administration and Saudi Royals (indirectly) to provide weapons to Israel, and that will allow you to gauge the level of response by Israel. I'm not getting how this will help the Palestinians after Israel destroys the infrastructure in Gaza, and no one really cares about what either side thinks the their silly history lessons are at this point. We are where we are presently, as Gaza turns into rubble.

---

Wow! You summed it up wonderfully, laid at the feet of Biden. Pfft!


And here I thought this guy was behind it all.



Or maybe we should ask this guy.



Or let's consult this guy:



Yesterday I was doing some reading about who ruled Israel before there was an Israel. I landed at a Wikipedia page on Mandatory Palestine (British). Then you can click on "preceded by" link to that which goes back to Ottoman Empire.

This page might be worth reading.
Before you dump it on Biden's lap.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestine_war#:~:text=19471948%20civil%20war%20in%20Mandatory%20Palestine,-Main%20article%3A%201947&text=The%20first%20phase%20of%20the,statehood%20on%2014%20May%201948.

I suppose I shouldn't be so harsh on you.
You're not saying the whole thing. You're saying the current, most recent back and forth. Okay, I get it.
But you elicit such a response with your headlining Biden Administration line. Come on, now.

---

Tom, as often is the case, you're blinded by your hatred from Trump. Biden has been the President since January 20, 2021, and it is now October 9, 2023, so we are moving towards half-way in Biden's first term. This may come as a surprise to you, but Trump's son in law has not been involved in foreign affairs for some time, and Biden has well qualified experts and diplomats (and not his son in law) on the Middle East. You need to remove Trump from your a-hole already.

Biden and his staff have entered into high-stakes negotiations among Israel, Saudi Arabia and the United States to normalize relationships. This has major economic, military and political consequeces for region and particuary for Iran. If Biden pulls it off, he shakes the dynamics of the Middle East and he isolates the influence of Iran and Putin in the region. Biden may also get an environmental bump, which is a discussion for another thread.

The relationship between Hamas and Israel has been deteriorating. The Netanyahu right coalition government has been conducting an escalating crackdown against what it says are rising Palestinian terror attacks for more than a couple years, but that doesn't really explain the timing. Hamas did't really have much in the way of military weapons to sustain a battle with Israel, but all of a sudden showed off it was armed, likely from Iran. Israel, which not only has a huge military advantage before, but is now being supplied by the US and other allies with the latest and greatest, as the US carrier fleet now moves in range, should be US be drawn in.

U.S. intelligence and military officers say they believed the timing of the Hamas attack was primarily aimed at disrupting negotiations between Israel and Saudi Arabia as the Saudis appeared on the verge of a historic step to normalize relations with Israel. If you don't want to take their or my word for it, how about everyone else:

CBS:Experts say it could undermine his claim his leadership makes for a safer world. - https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/israeli-hamas-conflict-tests-bidens-foreign-policy-message/story?id=103836878

Time:TimeWhy Hamas Tried to Sabotage Peace Prospects With an Attack1 day ago

WSJ:The Wall Street JournalAfter Hamas Attacks Israel, Biden's Top Foreign-Policy Goals Hit Turbulence1 day ago

How about the administration (unnamed Senior Administration Official being interviewed for background):
Background Press Call by a Senior Administration Official ...The White House (.gov)https://www.whitehouse.gov Press Briefings

I could just go through pretty much every new service, right or left.

---

Thank you for the education!
No, really!

…I will remove trump from my bunghole when he receives the type of punishment that Bearister is always posting about (capital, death), is left dying in jail, or suffocates on my feces!

Which solution do you favor?

socaltownie said:

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wifeisafurd said:

---

concordtom said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

The current incursion was initiated for the rather transparent reason of trying to disrupt the normalization of Israeli relationship with Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries being pushed by the Biden Administration. For better or worse, their view was this would bring faster peace to the middle east. Instead, it now seems like just another proxy battle between Saudi and Iran which serves objectives of Hamas leaders financially with money from Iran (just as most aide ended up in PLO leadership pockets years before). A Saudi-Isreaal deal could lead to an infusion of Saudi money for the Palestinian Authority, a more moderate group than Hamas and the loss of money flowing to Hamas leaders.

Expect the Biden administration and Saudi Royals (indirectly) to provide weapons to Israel, and that will allow you to gauge the level of response by Israel. I'm not getting how this will help the Palestinians after Israel destroys the infrastructure in Gaza, and no one really cares about what either side thinks the their silly history lessons are at this point. We are where we are presently, as Gaza turns into rubble.

---

Wow! You summed it up wonderfully, laid at the feet of Biden. Pfft!


And here I thought this guy was behind it all.



Or maybe we should ask this guy.



Or let's consult this guy:



Yesterday I was doing some reading about who ruled Israel before there was an Israel. I landed at a Wikipedia page on Mandatory Palestine (British). Then you can click on "preceded by" link to that which goes back to Ottoman Empire.

This page might be worth reading.
Before you dump it on Biden's lap.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestine_war#:~:text=19471948%20civil%20war%20in%20Mandatory%20Palestine,-Main%20article%3A%201947&text=The%20first%20phase%20of%20the,statehood%20on%2014%20May%201948.

I suppose I shouldn't be so harsh on you.
You're not saying the whole thing. You're saying the current, most recent back and forth. Okay, I get it.
But you elicit such a response with your headlining Biden Administration line. Come on, now.

---

Tom, as often is the case, you're blinded by your hatred from Trump. Biden has been the President since January 20, 2021, and it is now October 9, 2023, so we are moving towards half-way in Biden's first term. This may come as a surprise to you, but Trump's son in law has not been involved in foreign affairs for some time, and Biden has well qualified experts and diplomats (and not his son in law) on the Middle East. You need to remove Trump from your a-hole already.

Biden and his staff have entered into high-stakes negotiations among Israel, Saudi Arabia and the United States to normalize relationships. This has major economic, military and political consequeces for region and particuary for Iran. If Biden pulls it off, he shakes the dynamics of the Middle East and he isolates the influence of Iran and Putin in the region. Biden may also get an environmental bump, which is a discussion for another thread.

The relationship between Hamas and Israel has been deteriorating. The Netanyahu right coalition government has been conducting an escalating crackdown against what it says are rising Palestinian terror attacks for more than a couple years, but that doesn't really explain the timing. Hamas did't really have much in the way of military weapons to sustain a battle with Israel, but all of a sudden showed off it was armed, likely from Iran. Israel, which not only has a huge military advantage before, but is now being supplied by the US and other allies with the latest and greatest, as the US carrier fleet now moves in range, should be US be drawn in.

U.S. intelligence and military officers say they believed the timing of the Hamas attack was primarily aimed at disrupting negotiations between Israel and Saudi Arabia as the Saudis appeared on the verge of a historic step to normalize relations with Israel. If you don't want to take their or my word for it, how about everyone else:

CBS:Experts say it could undermine his claim his leadership makes for a safer world. - https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/israeli-hamas-conflict-tests-bidens-foreign-policy-message/story?id=103836878

Time:TimeWhy Hamas Tried to Sabotage Peace Prospects With an Attack1 day ago

WSJ:The Wall Street JournalAfter Hamas Attacks Israel, Biden's Top Foreign-Policy Goals Hit Turbulence1 day ago

How about the administration (unnamed Senior Administration Official being interviewed for background):
Background Press Call by a Senior Administration Official ...The White House (.gov)https://www.whitehouse.gov Press Briefings

I could just go through pretty much every new service, right or left.

---

I think Tom (and I for sure) would quibble with your framing of "Biden pushed" the Saudi/Israel rapproachment. They clearly are OK with it (which is probably good for overall long term stability in the middle east) but your verb choice suggests a lot more power and influence than I think ANY US administration has over EITHER of those countries foreign policy. The benefits of being a medium sized state with a principal adversary your "patron" is also very much at odds with.

---

Correct.
As I said, I didn't like the way he wanted to lay it upon the Biden Administration's feet.

tequila4kapp said:

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kal kommie said:

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socaltownie said:

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kal kommie said:

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dajo9 said:

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kal kommie said:

---

dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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dajo9 said:

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sycasey said:

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socaltownie said:

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At the core I really do believe that is the core challenge - that the majority in Israel want it as a "jewish state" even though demographics are against them and that too many in the Palestinian community want Palestine as a "muslim state" even though that ignores the reality of 8 million jews without really an enlightenment inspired polical culture that elevates tolerance to a central position. I readily admit that such a view doesn't get us to a solution.

---

Yeah, I generally agree with that. Ethnostates don't work in the long run, but Israel and Palestine want to be ethnostates. Not sure what changes the mindset. Maybe people get tired of all the fighting.

---

A pox on both their houses. America should stay out of it.

---

On this point: what is the case for the US continuing to support Israel? Does it benefit us in some material way?

---

No. In fact it harms us. Gets us involved in things that should have nothing to do with us.

---

It is impossible for America to stay out of it because we are already in it. We are already not simply involved but integral to what has happened there for 50 years. We provide critical military, intelligence, economic, technological, diplomatic and ideological support for Israel in massive quantities.

---

Every journey begins with a single step

---

I'd love for that step to be taken but unfortunately I'm betting on steps in the other direction. Our entire political class is allied with Israel. Approx 98% of the House and 100% of the Senate were supporters (tacit or explicit) of the status quo even before Hamas' assault on Saturday. Opposing the alliance with Israel will only become even harder now politically.

---

Which is why I have never understood the political actions by the Palestinians. It has struck me that they would make FAR more progress toward what at least SOME of them want (others I am convinced WANT the status quo because of personally benefiting from aid from the gulf states) if they engaged in non-violent protests. While the provisional IRA overtook NICRA during the early 1970s absent the memory of things like Bloody sunday I don't think you see the pressure on London and Ulster to reach a settlement. 10,000 Palestinian mothers cutting through the fence to reclaim homes and forcing Israel to resort to violence would not be a pretty scene on Western TV

---

I agree with you socaltownie that non-violent protests would seem to be the way to go but I suspect our perspective is probably flawed by how far removed we are from the scene.

In 2018 a massive protest (sometimes called the March of Return) began in Gaza that was originally organized by independent activists but soon endorsed by Hamas. It was a series of demonstrations at the security fence that went on for nearly two years. The largest demonstration had approx 30k people and many had over 10k. The demonstrations were overwhelmingly non-violent but even a tiny proportion of violent people in such a crowd can overshadow the enormous majority and provide cover for violent suppression. Over 100 Palestinians protesters had been killed before even a single Israeli soldier had been wounded. In the end over 200 Palestinians were killed and thousands were wounded while a single Israeli soldier was killed and about a dozen Israelis were wounded.

The protests had virtually no impact in the US. The Trump administration stated its support for Israel and the mass media gave ambiguous and limited coverage of the events. Only a handful of congressmen spoke up in support of the protest. What sympathetic coverage there was in the mass media was harshly criticized by Israel and the Zionist lobby in the US as defenses of terrorism.

Earlier attempts at non-violent protest were similarly unsuccessful. The famous First Intifada from 1987-1993 began with civil disobedience campaigns and demonstrations with generally limited violence like stone throwing at IDF buildings but as with the March of Return the minority violent components of the protests gave Israel license to violently crackdown on the entire campaign. In the first month of the protests no Israelis were killed while 22 Palestinians were killed by the IDF but the violence by the demonstrators escalated in the months that followed. By the end nearly 1,500 Palestinians had been killed by Israelis and almost 200 Israelis killed by Palestinians, about half of them civilians. The intifada ended with the signing of the Oslo agreement, a defeat for the protesters given how little Oslo addressed the aims of the intifada.

Maybe the problem is the non-violent demonstrations aren't tactically focused enough. Maybe if thousands of women unaccompanied by men did march unarmed right up to the fence the IDF would be too afraid to open fire on them or would finally trigger a backlash so severe that something would change but somehow I doubt the play would go as smoothly as we would draw it up on the chalkboard.

---

There's no such thing as mostly peaceful non violent civil disobedience. A little violence by some undermines everything.

---

Your second sentence is true, which is why the state sometimes sends agents provocateur into an otherwise peaceful demonstration because it knows if at least some quantity of violence can be found it will provide justification for suppression and reinforce those who were eager to condemn the protests regardless.

tequila4kapp said:

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Slava Palestini said:

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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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How long did you think a Yogi burner account named Slava Palestini starting a thread cheerleading Hamas and blaming the US was going to last once BI management saw it? I'm fairly confident that's not a look BI wants to show the world.

---

The Israel-Palestine story for beginners. pic.twitter.com/PZW8v0gS9w

— Siddharth (@DearthOfSid) October 8, 2023

Also for morons like Eastern Oregon Bear, who may be a beginner, but is probably just stupid and uneducated on this topic as he is on so many others.

---

Do Jews have a right to live in the region? Does Israel have a right to exist?

---

Does Israel have the right to ethnic cleansing?

https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/INTERACTIVE-What-is-the-Nakba-infographic-map.png
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/5/15/nakba-mapping-palestinian-villages-destroyed-by-israel-in-1948

Quote:

---

Between 1947 and 1949, Zionist military forces attacked major Palestinian cities and destroyed some 530 villages. About 15,000 Palestinians were killed in a series of mass atrocities, including dozens of massacres.

---

dajo9 said:

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kal kommie said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

socaltownie said:

---

At the core I really do believe that is the core challenge - that the majority in Israel want it as a "jewish state" even though demographics are against them and that too many in the Palestinian community want Palestine as a "muslim state" even though that ignores the reality of 8 million jews without really an enlightenment inspired polical culture that elevates tolerance to a central position. I readily admit that such a view doesn't get us to a solution.

---

Yeah, I generally agree with that. Ethnostates don't work in the long run, but Israel and Palestine want to be ethnostates. Not sure what changes the mindset. Maybe people get tired of all the fighting.

---

A pox on both their houses. America should stay out of it.

---

On this point: what is the case for the US continuing to support Israel? Does it benefit us in some material way?

---

No. In fact it harms us. Gets us involved in things that should have nothing to do with us.

---

It is impossible for America to stay out of it because we are already in it. We are already not simply involved but integral to what has happened there for 50 years. We provide critical military, intelligence, economic, technological, diplomatic and ideological support for Israel in massive quantities.

---

Every journey begins with a single step

---

Naive is one thing, head in the sand is another. Have you been listing to our President and the news of our the actions of our military forces streaming towards the Middle East? Forget history, Biden just promised he will support Israel and when pushed now far that support will go, promised he won't put troops on the ground.....in Gaza.

For a big picture, the US can get a two state solution probably with the PLO and Abbas, but not with Iran backed Hamas controlling Gaza. Thus, having Israel destroy Hamas is in the Biden Administration's interest. You can debate the Biden administration's strategy (and to what degree Biden''s close friend Netanyahu will cooperate), but if Biden pulls all this off, he is line for a Nobel Peace Prize. Sorta the ultimate prize for every US President in the last several decades, being able to bring peace to the Middle East.

socaltownie said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

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bearister said:

---

This morning I suggested to my wife that the Israeli security lapse seems hard to believe and what if Netanyahu wanted this to happen like some claim FDR knew Pearl Harbor was coming.

Then this:

"In one of the said warnings, Egypt's Intelligence Minister General Abbas Kamel personally called Netanyahu only 10 days before the massive attack that Gazans were likely to do "something unusual, a terrible operation," according to the Ynet news site.

"Unnamed Egyptian officials told the site they were shocked by Netanyahu's indifference to the news and said the premier told the minister the military was "submerged" in troubles in the West Bank."

Netanyahu's tRumpian response: "This is completely fake news."

Egypt intelligence official says Israel ignored repeated warnings of 'something big' | The Times of Israel


https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/

*I don't know whether Egypt's claim of a warning is true or not, but if it's true, Bibi's enemies within will get a spotlight on it.

---

Bib's enemies are now supporting a unified "war cabinet" which includes a member from all parties. So one thing Hamas succeeded in is turning a peace movement in a divided Israel into a unified war movement led by Bibi.

---

WHich is probably a good thing. Some of the reports (I don't follow internal Israel politics much at all) suggest that a problem for Bibi was that because his ruling coalition has a number of small West Bank Settler parties he has been much more focused on weakening the PA and enabling settlers which took attention off hamas and gaza. If the unity party diminshes the wacky fring of the settler movement that is a damm good thing because they are nearly as bad as Hamas and would be if they were politically powerless.

---

The war cabinet probably folds once the Gaza Strip is obliterated, which likely is sooner than later.

bearister said:

---

1. Do you accept it as a possibility that Bibi was warned by Egypt?

2. If yes, what are your theories why he didn't act on it?

I floated the theory that maybe he wanted an excuse to destroy Hamas in Gaza. You call that theory idiocy. Your take on political issues demonstrates that you are many things, but rocket scientist isn't on the list.

---

I accept it as a possibility. Prior to 9/11, there were warnings that were vague and ignored for a variety of reasons, none of which were malevolent or intentional. That could have happened here. Or the Egyptian warning could have been more specific and Bibi thought he and his government had it handled.

What i reject is your wacko conspiracy theory that somehow Netanyahu let this massacre happen because he felt it benefitted him or his objectives. You are truly batsh!!t crazy on this one - more than usual. You can't articulate how allowing the attack helps Bibi. You just hate him, so your mind goes there which is rather pathetic.

Netanyahu's entire platform and persona is that he is Israel's protector. That he and his party were the best able to secure Israel and the other parties' could not. That his hard line was the right approach. He would never damage that by allowing a catastrophic massacre on his watch. Nor would the Mossad or IDF who are equally invested in preserving their reputations (as part of both deterrence and pride).

Unlike the US after 9/11 (where no one was held accountable), after the war Israel will absolutely hold people accountable, starting with Bibi. He will be gone, as will the head of Mossad and many other intelligence/military people. Look at what happened after the Yom Kippur War in 1973.

socaltownie said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

kal kommie said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

socaltownie said:

---

At the core I really do believe that is the core challenge - that the majority in Israel want it as a "jewish state" even though demographics are against them and that too many in the Palestinian community want Palestine as a "muslim state" even though that ignores the reality of 8 million jews without really an enlightenment inspired polical culture that elevates tolerance to a central position. I readily admit that such a view doesn't get us to a solution.

---

Yeah, I generally agree with that. Ethnostates don't work in the long run, but Israel and Palestine want to be ethnostates. Not sure what changes the mindset. Maybe people get tired of all the fighting.

---

A pox on both their houses. America should stay out of it.

---

On this point: what is the case for the US continuing to support Israel? Does it benefit us in some material way?

---

No. In fact it harms us. Gets us involved in things that should have nothing to do with us.

---

It is impossible for America to stay out of it because we are already in it. We are already not simply involved but integral to what has happened there for 50 years. We provide critical military, intelligence, economic, technological, diplomatic and ideological support for Israel in massive quantities.

---

Every journey begins with a single step

---

Naive is one thing, head in the sand is another. Have you been listing to our President and the news of our the actions of our military forces streaming towards the Middle East? Forget history, Biden just promised he will support Israel and when pushed now far that support will go, promised he won't put troops on the ground.....in Gaza.

For a big picture, the US can get a two state solution probably with the PLO and Abbas, but not with Iran backed Hamas controlling Gaza. Thus, having Israel destroy Hamas is in the Biden Administration's interest. You can debate the Biden administration's strategy (and to what degree Biden''s close friend Netanyahu will cooperate), but if Biden pulls all this off, he is line for a Nobel Peace Prize. Sorta the ultimate prize for every US President in the last several decades, begin able to bring peace to the Middle East.

---

News flash. Bibi has pretty much said there will be no 2 state solution while he is PM and the actions on the West Bank over the past 2 years with a huge amount of illegal settlement building makes that more problematic each and every day.

---

Oh, news flash, he says he is for a 2 state solution, just Netanyahu weaves in and out of different definitions of what that would mean. I'm assuming that Biden will use his personal relationship and a lot of IOUs from this period to move Netanyahu onto the same page. My guess is that means US and UN peacekeepers on the borders. So much for getting out.

concordtom said:

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socaltownie said:

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wifeisafurd said:

---

concordtom said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

The current incursion was initiated for the rather transparent reason of trying to disrupt the normalization of Israeli relationship with Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries being pushed by the Biden Administration. For better or worse, their view was this would bring faster peace to the middle east. Instead, it now seems like just another proxy battle between Saudi and Iran which serves objectives of Hamas leaders financially with money from Iran (just as most aide ended up in PLO leadership pockets years before). A Saudi-Isreaal deal could lead to an infusion of Saudi money for the Palestinian Authority, a more moderate group than Hamas and the loss of money flowing to Hamas leaders.

Expect the Biden administration and Saudi Royals (indirectly) to provide weapons to Israel, and that will allow you to gauge the level of response by Israel. I'm not getting how this will help the Palestinians after Israel destroys the infrastructure in Gaza, and no one really cares about what either side thinks the their silly history lessons are at this point. We are where we are presently, as Gaza turns into rubble.

---

Wow! You summed it up wonderfully, laid at the feet of Biden. Pfft!


And here I thought this guy was behind it all.



Or maybe we should ask this guy.



Or let's consult this guy:



Yesterday I was doing some reading about who ruled Israel before there was an Israel. I landed at a Wikipedia page on Mandatory Palestine (British). Then you can click on "preceded by" link to that which goes back to Ottoman Empire.

This page might be worth reading.
Before you dump it on Biden's lap.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestine_war#:~:text=19471948%20civil%20war%20in%20Mandatory%20Palestine,-Main%20article%3A%201947&text=The%20first%20phase%20of%20the,statehood%20on%2014%20May%201948.

I suppose I shouldn't be so harsh on you.
You're not saying the whole thing. You're saying the current, most recent back and forth. Okay, I get it.
But you elicit such a response with your headlining Biden Administration line. Come on, now.

---

Tom, as often is the case, you're blinded by your hatred from Trump. Biden has been the President since January 20, 2021, and it is now October 9, 2023, so we are moving towards half-way in Biden's first term. This may come as a surprise to you, but Trump's son in law has not been involved in foreign affairs for some time, and Biden has well qualified experts and diplomats (and not his son in law) on the Middle East. You need to remove Trump from your a-hole already.

Biden and his staff have entered into high-stakes negotiations among Israel, Saudi Arabia and the United States to normalize relationships. This has major economic, military and political consequeces for region and particuary for Iran. If Biden pulls it off, he shakes the dynamics of the Middle East and he isolates the influence of Iran and Putin in the region. Biden may also get an environmental bump, which is a discussion for another thread.

The relationship between Hamas and Israel has been deteriorating. The Netanyahu right coalition government has been conducting an escalating crackdown against what it says are rising Palestinian terror attacks for more than a couple years, but that doesn't really explain the timing. Hamas did't really have much in the way of military weapons to sustain a battle with Israel, but all of a sudden showed off it was armed, likely from Iran. Israel, which not only has a huge military advantage before, but is now being supplied by the US and other allies with the latest and greatest, as the US carrier fleet now moves in range, should be US be drawn in.

U.S. intelligence and military officers say they believed the timing of the Hamas attack was primarily aimed at disrupting negotiations between Israel and Saudi Arabia as the Saudis appeared on the verge of a historic step to normalize relations with Israel. If you don't want to take their or my word for it, how about everyone else:

CBS:Experts say it could undermine his claim his leadership makes for a safer world. - https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/israeli-hamas-conflict-tests-bidens-foreign-policy-message/story?id=103836878

Time:TimeWhy Hamas Tried to Sabotage Peace Prospects With an Attack1 day ago

WSJ:The Wall Street JournalAfter Hamas Attacks Israel, Biden's Top Foreign-Policy Goals Hit Turbulence1 day ago

How about the administration (unnamed Senior Administration Official being interviewed for background):
Background Press Call by a Senior Administration Official ...The White House (.gov)https://www.whitehouse.gov Press Briefings

I could just go through pretty much every new service, right or left.

---

I think Tom (and I for sure) would quibble with your framing of "Biden pushed" the Saudi/Israel rapproachment. They clearly are OK with it (which is probably good for overall long term stability in the middle east) but your verb choice suggests a lot more power and influence than I think ANY US administration has over EITHER of those countries foreign policy. The benefits of being a medium sized state with a principal adversary your "patron" is also very much at odds with.

---

Correct.
As I said, I didn't like the way he wanted to lay it upon the Biden Administration's feet.

---

US policy on these matters also seems fairly bipartisan and continuing through multiple administrations, so I don't necessarily buy the framing that it's just on Biden. US policy can generally be bad without pinning it on one president.

concordtom said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

concordtom said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

The current incursion was initiated for the rather transparent reason of trying to disrupt the normalization of Israeli relationship with Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries being pushed by the Biden Administration. For better or worse, their view was this would bring faster peace to the middle east. Instead, it now seems like just another proxy battle between Saudi and Iran which serves objectives of Hamas leaders financially with money from Iran (just as most aide ended up in PLO leadership pockets years before). A Saudi-Isreaal deal could lead to an infusion of Saudi money for the Palestinian Authority, a more moderate group than Hamas and the loss of money flowing to Hamas leaders.

Expect the Biden administration and Saudi Royals (indirectly) to provide weapons to Israel, and that will allow you to gauge the level of response by Israel. I'm not getting how this will help the Palestinians after Israel destroys the infrastructure in Gaza, and no one really cares about what either side thinks the their silly history lessons are at this point. We are where we are presently, as Gaza turns into rubble.

---

Wow! You summed it up wonderfully, laid at the feet of Biden. Pfft!


And here I thought this guy was behind it all.



Or maybe we should ask this guy.



Or let's consult this guy:



Yesterday I was doing some reading about who ruled Israel before there was an Israel. I landed at a Wikipedia page on Mandatory Palestine (British). Then you can click on "preceded by" link to that which goes back to Ottoman Empire.

This page might be worth reading.
Before you dump it on Biden's lap.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestine_war#:~:text=19471948%20civil%20war%20in%20Mandatory%20Palestine,-Main%20article%3A%201947&text=The%20first%20phase%20of%20the,statehood%20on%2014%20May%201948.

I suppose I shouldn't be so harsh on you.
You're not saying the whole thing. You're saying the current, most recent back and forth. Okay, I get it.
But you elicit such a response with your headlining Biden Administration line. Come on, now.

---

Tom, as often is the case, you're blinded by your hatred from Trump. Biden has been the President since January 20, 2021, and it is now October 9, 2023, so we are moving towards half-way in Biden's first term. This may come as a surprise to you, but Trump's son in law has not been involved in foreign affairs for some time, and Biden has well qualified experts and diplomats (and not his son in law) on the Middle East. You need to remove Trump from your a-hole already.

Biden and his staff have entered into high-stakes negotiations among Israel, Saudi Arabia and the United States to normalize relationships. This has major economic, military and political consequeces for region and particuary for Iran. If Biden pulls it off, he shakes the dynamics of the Middle East and he isolates the influence of Iran and Putin in the region. Biden may also get an environmental bump, which is a discussion for another thread.

The relationship between Hamas and Israel has been deteriorating. The Netanyahu right coalition government has been conducting an escalating crackdown against what it says are rising Palestinian terror attacks for more than a couple years, but that doesn't really explain the timing. Hamas did't really have much in the way of military weapons to sustain a battle with Israel, but all of a sudden showed off it was armed, likely from Iran. Israel, which not only has a huge military advantage before, but is now being supplied by the US and other allies with the latest and greatest, as the US carrier fleet now moves in range, should be US be drawn in.

U.S. intelligence and military officers say they believed the timing of the Hamas attack was primarily aimed at disrupting negotiations between Israel and Saudi Arabia as the Saudis appeared on the verge of a historic step to normalize relations with Israel. If you don't want to take their or my word for it, how about everyone else:

CBS:Experts say it could undermine his claim his leadership makes for a safer world. - https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/israeli-hamas-conflict-tests-bidens-foreign-policy-message/story?id=103836878

Time:TimeWhy Hamas Tried to Sabotage Peace Prospects With an Attack1 day ago

WSJ:The Wall Street JournalAfter Hamas Attacks Israel, Biden's Top Foreign-Policy Goals Hit Turbulence1 day ago

How about the administration (unnamed Senior Administration Official being interviewed for background):
Background Press Call by a Senior Administration Official ...The White House (.gov)https://www.whitehouse.gov Press Briefings

I could just go through pretty much every new service, right or left.

---

Thank you for the education!
No, really!

…I will remove trump from my bunghole when he receives the type of punishment that Bearister is always posting about (capital, death), is left dying in jail, or suffocates on my feces!

Which solution do you favor?

---

Jail would be fine with me. Or maybe even exiled to Mar Lago.

Question: is a two-state solution even feasible? I'm not confident such a thing would actually hold in the long run; the problem is that the Jews and the Muslims both want the same land.

Iran International: Biden's Iran Policy Comes Under Focus With Attack On Israel"

Biden & Blinken took off sanctions and effectively handed them tens of Billions of dollars.

Sunday, 10/08/2023

""Since Biden took office Iran's accessible foreign exchange reserves went from <$6B (same as Haiti!) to $70B," posted David Greenaway, Director of Centre for National Defense, "anyone arguing this doesn't support terrorism is either wholly ignorant, lying, or both." "

Let’s be clearer still: Since Biden took office Iran’s accessible foreign exchange reserves went from <$6B (same as Haiti!) to $70B+, & from selling <400k barrels of oil per day at <$55/ barrel to over 3M barrels per day at $85 per barrel. Anyone arguing this doesn’t support… https://t.co/eWKZsT5HJH

— Robert Greenway (@RC_Greenway) October 7, 2023

https://www.iranintl.com/en/202310082957

socaltownie said:

---

wifeisafurd said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

kal kommie said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

dajo9 said:

---

sycasey said:

---

socaltownie said:

---

At the core I really do believe that is the core challenge - that the majority in Israel want it as a "jewish state" even though demographics are against them and that too many in the Palestinian community want Palestine as a "muslim state" even though that ignores the reality of 8 million jews without really an enlightenment inspired polical culture that elevates tolerance to a central position. I readily admit that such a view doesn't get us to a solution.

---

Yeah, I generally agree with that. Ethnostates don't work in the long run, but Israel and Palestine want to be ethnostates. Not sure what changes the mindset. Maybe people get tired of all the fighting.

---

A pox on both their houses. America should stay out of it.

---

On this point: what is the case for the US continuing to support Israel? Does it benefit us in some material way?

---

No. In fact it harms us. Gets us involved in things that should have nothing to do with us.

---

It is impossible for America to stay out of it because we are already in it. We are already not simply involved but integral to what has happened there for 50 years. We provide critical military, intelligence, economic, technological, diplomatic and ideological support for Israel in massive quantities.

---

Every journey begins with a single step

---

Naive is one thing, head in the sand is another. Have you been listing to our President and the news of our the actions of our military forces streaming towards the Middle East? Forget history, Biden just promised he will support Israel and when pushed now far that support will go, promised he won't put troops on the ground.....in Gaza.

For a big picture, the US can get a two state solution probably with the PLO and Abbas, but not with Iran backed Hamas controlling Gaza. Thus, having Israel destroy Hamas is in the Biden Administration's interest. You can debate the Biden administration's strategy (and to what degree Biden''s close friend Netanyahu will cooperate), but if Biden pulls all this off, he is line for a Nobel Peace Prize. Sorta the ultimate prize for every US President in the last several decades, begin able to bring peace to the Middle East.

---

News flash. Bibi has pretty much said there will be no 2 state solution while he is PM and the actions on the West Bank over the past 2 years with a huge amount of illegal settlement building makes that more problematic each and every day.

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How many settlements were built in Gaza under Netanyahu?

Israeli settlement policy is unhelpful and creates obstacles to peace. But it is delusional to think that is the problem. Israel has proven it will remove settlements to facilitate Peace - both from Sinai and also from Gaza. Have Hamas/Iran and the Palestinians agreed to accept a peace where Israel exists as a Jewish state?

sycasey said:

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Question: is a two-state solution even feasible? I'm not confident such a thing would actually hold in the long run; the problem is that the Jews and the Muslims both want the same land.

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The Palestinians are used as a proxy to attack Israel;

which is used for some as a proxy to attack the great Satan, America.

Given all the Middle eastern wars we've started and contributed to the last 24 years, not an easy argument for Yanks.

sycasey said:

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concordtom said:

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socaltownie said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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concordtom said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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The current incursion was initiated for the rather transparent reason of trying to disrupt the normalization of Israeli relationship with Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries being pushed by the Biden Administration. For better or worse, their view was this would bring faster peace to the middle east. Instead, it now seems like just another proxy battle between Saudi and Iran which serves objectives of Hamas leaders financially with money from Iran (just as most aide ended up in PLO leadership pockets years before). A Saudi-Isreaal deal could lead to an infusion of Saudi money for the Palestinian Authority, a more moderate group than Hamas and the loss of money flowing to Hamas leaders.

Expect the Biden administration and Saudi Royals (indirectly) to provide weapons to Israel, and that will allow you to gauge the level of response by Israel. I'm not getting how this will help the Palestinians after Israel destroys the infrastructure in Gaza, and no one really cares about what either side thinks the their silly history lessons are at this point. We are where we are presently, as Gaza turns into rubble.

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Wow! You summed it up wonderfully, laid at the feet of Biden. Pfft!


And here I thought this guy was behind it all.



Or maybe we should ask this guy.



Or let's consult this guy:



Yesterday I was doing some reading about who ruled Israel before there was an Israel. I landed at a Wikipedia page on Mandatory Palestine (British). Then you can click on "preceded by" link to that which goes back to Ottoman Empire.

This page might be worth reading.
Before you dump it on Biden's lap.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestine_war#:~:text=19471948%20civil%20war%20in%20Mandatory%20Palestine,-Main%20article%3A%201947&text=The%20first%20phase%20of%20the,statehood%20on%2014%20May%201948.

I suppose I shouldn't be so harsh on you.
You're not saying the whole thing. You're saying the current, most recent back and forth. Okay, I get it.
But you elicit such a response with your headlining Biden Administration line. Come on, now.

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Tom, as often is the case, you're blinded by your hatred from Trump. Biden has been the President since January 20, 2021, and it is now October 9, 2023, so we are moving towards half-way in Biden's first term. This may come as a surprise to you, but Trump's son in law has not been involved in foreign affairs for some time, and Biden has well qualified experts and diplomats (and not his son in law) on the Middle East. You need to remove Trump from your a-hole already.

Biden and his staff have entered into high-stakes negotiations among Israel, Saudi Arabia and the United States to normalize relationships. This has major economic, military and political consequeces for region and particuary for Iran. If Biden pulls it off, he shakes the dynamics of the Middle East and he isolates the influence of Iran and Putin in the region. Biden may also get an environmental bump, which is a discussion for another thread.

The relationship between Hamas and Israel has been deteriorating. The Netanyahu right coalition government has been conducting an escalating crackdown against what it says are rising Palestinian terror attacks for more than a couple years, but that doesn't really explain the timing. Hamas did't really have much in the way of military weapons to sustain a battle with Israel, but all of a sudden showed off it was armed, likely from Iran. Israel, which not only has a huge military advantage before, but is now being supplied by the US and other allies with the latest and greatest, as the US carrier fleet now moves in range, should be US be drawn in.

U.S. intelligence and military officers say they believed the timing of the Hamas attack was primarily aimed at disrupting negotiations between Israel and Saudi Arabia as the Saudis appeared on the verge of a historic step to normalize relations with Israel. If you don't want to take their or my word for it, how about everyone else:

CBS:Experts say it could undermine his claim his leadership makes for a safer world. - https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/israeli-hamas-conflict-tests-bidens-foreign-policy-message/story?id=103836878

Time:TimeWhy Hamas Tried to Sabotage Peace Prospects With an Attack1 day ago

WSJ:The Wall Street JournalAfter Hamas Attacks Israel, Biden's Top Foreign-Policy Goals Hit Turbulence1 day ago

How about the administration (unnamed Senior Administration Official being interviewed for background):
Background Press Call by a Senior Administration Official ...The White House (.gov)https://www.whitehouse.gov Press Briefings

I could just go through pretty much every new service, right or left.

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I think Tom (and I for sure) would quibble with your framing of "Biden pushed" the Saudi/Israel rapproachment. They clearly are OK with it (which is probably good for overall long term stability in the middle east) but your verb choice suggests a lot more power and influence than I think ANY US administration has over EITHER of those countries foreign policy. The benefits of being a medium sized state with a principal adversary your "patron" is also very much at odds with.

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Correct.
As I said, I didn't like the way he wanted to lay it upon the Biden Administration's feet.

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US policy on these matters also seems fairly bipartisan and continuing through multiple administrations, so I don't necessarily buy the framing that it's just on Biden. US policy can generally be bad without pinning it on one president.

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No, Tom and SoCal are factually wrong. The normalization talks between Israel and Saudi Arabia stared and continue with the US acting as sole mediator from the beginning of the talks. You may be thinking of the Abraham Accords where Israel normalized relations with 4 other minor Arab countries, not Saudi Arabia, which was completed under Trump. There is no quibbling, this is the Biden Administration's audible and they deserve all the credit if they make it happen.

https://www.axios.com/2022/06/22/israel-saudi-arabia-normalization-biden-administration

sycasey said:

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Question: is a two-state solution even feasible? I'm not confident such a thing would actually hold in the long run; the problem is that the Jews and the Muslims both want the same land.

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You want to be practical with this group? The only way 2 states work is if the US and Saudies dump a lot of money into the PLO and hope some of the dollars gets into their economy