Yogi's thread got deleted, so let's see if we can have a mature thread about this new hot war in the Middle East.

I've been fairly occupied the past few days (used all my disposable free time to tune in to the latest Cal football loss), plus I tend to tune out still further conflict in Israel/Palestine, but I hear things are bad again there. Maybe I should tune in...

bearister said:

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I have the same reflection about the current situation as I had all those years (30) about the IRA activity in Northern Ireland. Savage violence against civilians is near impossible to ever justify, but most often it is born from injustice. It always deflects attention away from the injustice and the causes of it and the remedies for it and focuses attention solely on the violence.

*….and I'm not sure Netanyahu would be my first choice to helm the ship at this point in time.

* …and bad foreign actors always get involved to throw gas on the fire by providing support in order to advance their own agendas. Iran in the current case and Gaddafi with the IRA (and some misguided Irish Americans).

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Agreed,

It's difficult to find a full explanation of how this conflict started and I'm sure the ones I posted above can't possibly explain it all in 5 minutes.

dimitrig said:

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I am not sure what Hamas hoped to accomplish.

They cannot defeat Israel militarily and now they have given Israel a reason to fight them openly while turning international opinion against them. It seems like a real stupid move.

Someone help me understand it. I have been away from news all day. Was an explanation ever provided?

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Their own Palestinian state coexisting with Israel?
Their own Palestinian state without an independent Israel?
No Israel period? Jihad.

Once Israel engages, they, with the help of the media, can turn international opinion against Israel and give reasons for neighboring Arab countries to join the conflict?

Slava Palestini said:

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BearHunter said:

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It's difficult to find a full explanation of how this conflict started and I'm sure the ones I posted above can't possibly explain it all in 5 minutes.

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The inconvenient facts that Dennis Prager doesn't want you to know about.

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Were there secret under the table deals with the Jews? Did the U.N. offer a terrible initial offer to the Palestinians?

Just as with the US gov backing the Mujahideen who would become the Taliban in Afghanistan in the 1980s, Israel helped the rise of what would become Hamas.

It was even advocated in the pages of the New York Times. The reason was clearly stated -- a desire to divide the… pic.twitter.com/qy4bhflbD7

— Sam Husseini (@samhusseini) October 8, 2023

https://www.nytimes.com/1989/09/09/opinion/an-alternative-to-the-plo-fundamentalists.html

As the episode of Israel's abduction of Sheik Abdul Karim Obeid, a Lebanese Shiite clergyman, fades from the headlines, the influence of Islamic fundamentalism in the occupied territories deserves the attention of Israeli and American policy makers. Surprisingly, these fundamentalists may hold the key to a Middle East peace settlement.

It is true that Islamic fundamentalists are known for violence and hostage-taking. Not only has fundamentalism been behind the uprising against the Israeli occupation, but the spirit of fundamentalism has largely sustained it for 21 months. Recently, fundamentalists have attacked Israelis deep inside Israel, further destabilizing the situation.

Moreover, an estimated majority of the Arabs in the territories (80 percent to 90 percent in Gaza, 40 percent in the West Bank) now adhere to the fundamentalist umbrella organization Hamas (the Movement of Islamic Opposition) and no longer consider the Palestine Liberation Organization their representative.

At present, Hamas leaders are looking forward to competing with the P.L.O. in the elections that are a part of Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir's peace initiative. Their aim is not to advance the peace process, they say, but to show that they represent 60 percent of the Arab population.

A deep ideological gap separates Hamas and the P.L.O. Hamas holds that a Palestinian state must be Islamic, with a constitution based on the Koran. The P.L.O. advocates a secular state for Palestinians and includes factions that are Marxist and atheistic. Hamas does not intend to challenge the P.L.O. until the Palestinians are free of Israeli occupation, but its leaders express no doubt that an armed clash will ultimately come.

Many Western leaders, concerned about the growth of militant Palestinian fundamentalism, urge a hasty resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict through negotiations with the P.L.O. Perhaps understandably, little thought has been given to the possibility of using fundamentalist influence in the occupied territories in the service of a compromise solution.

Viewed ideologically, a compromise based on Hamas's participation seems impossible. Its charter stresses that all Palestine is a trust from Allah to the Palestinian Muslims and must be under Islamic rule. There is nothing to negotiate with Israel except its dismantling. Even Hamas's elected representatives, in the event of future elections, would not negotiate with the Jewish state.

On a pragmatic plane, however, Hamas has unwritten positions that demand attention. For example, it holds that the termination of the Israeli occupation of any Muslim territory is preferable to the present situation. Its members claim that, while Hamas would never negotiate a compromise with Israel, it would not obstruct others from doing so. And, unlike the P.L.O., it would not insist on tying an Israeli withdrawal to the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Hamas also views with equanimity the prospect of Jordan's assuming primary responsibility for the occupied territories. Its adherents cite a history of amicable relations between the Muslim Brotherhood - the main component of Hamas - and the Hashemite regime. They would not oppose a return to Jordanian rule, perhaps in a confederation.

These positions, held by an organization that claims to represent a majority of West Bank and Gaza Palestinians, should not be disregarded. The Israeli public will be persuaded to cede territory only if it feels that such action will not endanger its security. And the P.L.O.'s unwillingness to stop attacking Israelis makes the prospect of a P.L.O.-led state seem too great a risk. On the other hand, having lived peaceably with Jordan for 18 years, most Israelis might be persuaded to cede land to Jordan in exchange for peace and proper security arrangements.

Thus, if America and the international community decided to concentrate their efforts on implementing Security Council 242 with an Israeli-Jordanian accord, they might find the ground largely prepared in the Palestinian camp - ironically, by the Islamic fundamentalists. Moreover, the fundamentalists' emphasis on regaining whatever territory they can might leave room for compromises with Jordan that the P.L.O. could not allow itself to make.
These possibilities are not without dangers. The fundamentalists' ultimate aim of placing all Palestine under Islamic rule hardly differs from the P.L.O.'s plan for regaining all of Palestine by stages. Both advocate using any land that Israel cedes as a springboard for gaining more. The survival of the Hashemite regime after it assumed authority over a largely fundamentalist Palestinian population would also be problematic.

These dangers can be met. Without doubt, Israel and Jordan, as well as any other parties to a peace agreement, would have to exercise a firm hand against extremists that opposed territorial compromise. If, however, an end to the Israeli occupation were coupled with generous international aid for Palestinian economic development, much of the malaise that swells the ranks of extremist fundamentalism today would wane.

In light of the deadlock that blocks progress toward peace between Israel and the P.L.O., it is vital to remember that another option, involving Hamas, may exist.

Clinton Bailey, author of ''Jordan's Palestinian Challenge, 1948-1983,'' specializes in Islamic fundamentalism in the occupied territories.

1. Do me a favor and do a Google search for "Gaza Warsaw ghetto". Take a look at the dates on some of those articles. 2003, 2009, 2011, 2023. The acknowledgment of how these people have been living isn't new.

2. Take a look at a map of Gaza, population density and its borders.

3. Tell me what country residents of Gaza are citizens of. Who governs them?

4. Tell me the entrance and exit points to/from Gaza. For people. For materials, products.

5. Write an essay comparing and contrasting the two ghetto situations.

Anyone who does the above is therefore qualified to comment on what they think American policy toward the current waring conflict should be. If you're unaware, you get no say.

How Hamas duped Israel as it planned devastating attack | Reuters


https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-israel-was-duped-hamas-planned-devastating-assault-2023-10-08/

"In one of the most striking elements of their preparations, Hamas constructed a mock Israeli settlement in Gaza where they practiced a military landing and trained to storm it, the source close to Hamas said, adding they even made videos of the manoeuvres.
Israel surely saw them but they were convinced that Hamas wasn't keen on getting into a confrontation," the source said…..

In one well-publicised hostage taking, fighters abducted party-goers fleeing a rave near the kibbutz of Re'im near Gaza. Social media footage showed dozens of people running through fields and on a road as gunshots were heard.

"How could this party happen this close (to Gaza)?" the Israeli security source said."

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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dajo9 said:

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Israel has shut off electricity, water, and food to Gaza. Looks like Israel has taken about 800,000 hostages.

The U.S. should not be involved.

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Here comes the "US is involved in everything and everything is the fault of the US" crowd in 3... 2... 1...

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I really hope you aren't trying to lump me in with that crowd. That type is here and the U.S. is never wrong type is here and then some people like me look at different foreign policy happenings and come up with different opinions based on the underlying facts.

Is Iran involved in this? If so, how?

Slava Palestini said:

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Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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How long did you think a Yogi burner account named Slava Palestini starting a thread cheerleading Hamas and blaming the US was going to last once BI management saw it? I'm fairly confident that's not a look BI wants to show the world.

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The Israel-Palestine story for beginners. pic.twitter.com/PZW8v0gS9w

— Siddharth (@DearthOfSid) October 8, 2023

Also for morons like Eastern Oregon Bear, who may be a beginner, but is probably just stupid and uneducated on this topic as he is on so many others.

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Do Jews have a right to live in the region? Does Israel have a right to exist?

MinotStateBeav said:

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Now neo-cons and neo-libs are trying to tie funding Ukraine and money for Israel together!! MORE BILLIONS!! How about no more money that we don't have to other countries until we have a budget that gets us to a point we aren't slashing social security 20% in 7 years!!!

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Why do that when we can just keep selling bonds to Japan and China? That's gonna end well.

I don't care about Israel or Palestine at all really. What Hamas did is just like an Isis attack and for that Israel has enough already to take care of business, we don't need to get involved, except to sell weapons. Hamas is their elected gov't so they can deal with the consequences of those actions.

wifeisafurd said:

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The current incursion was initiated for the rather transparent reason of trying to disrupt the normalization of Israeli relationship with Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries being pushed by the Biden Administration. For better or worse, their view was this would bring faster peace to the middle east. Instead, it now seems like just another proxy battle between Saudi and Iran which serves objectives of Hamas leaders financially with money from Iran (just as most aide ended up in PLO leadership pockets years before). A Saudi-Isreaal deal could lead to an infusion of Saudi money for the Palestinian Authority, a more moderate group than Hamas and the loss of money flowing to Hamas leaders.

Expect the Biden administration and Saudi Royals (indirectly) to provide weapons to Israel, and that will allow you to gauge the level of response by Israel. I'm not getting how this will help the Palestinians after Israel destroys the infrastructure in Gaza, and no one really cares about what either side thinks the their silly history lessons are at this point. We are where we are presently, as Gaza turns into rubble.

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Yes, this is the conclusion I am coming to. The timing was related to the normalization of the relationship with the Saudis.

Eastern Oregon Bear said:

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dajo9 said:

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Israel has shut off electricity, water, and food to Gaza. Looks like Israel has taken about 800,000 hostages.

The U.S. should not be involved.

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Here comes the "US is involved in everything and everything is the fault of the US" crowd in 3... 2... 1...

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Powell denies using the term "pottery barn rule", but stated: It is said that I used the "Pottery Barn rule." I never did it; [Thomas] Friedman did it ... But what I did say ... [is that] once you break it, you are going to own it, and we're going to be responsible for 26 million people standing there looking at us.

tequila4kapp said:

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MinotStateBeav said:

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Now neo-cons and neo-libs are trying to tie funding Ukraine and money for Israel together!! MORE BILLIONS!! How about no more money that we don't have to other countries until we have a budget that gets us to a point we aren't slashing social security 20% in 7 years!!!

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Why do that when we can just keep selling bonds to Japan and China? That's gonna end well.

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Right!

wifeisafurd said:

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The current incursion was initiated for the rather transparent reason of trying to disrupt the normalization of Israeli relationship with Saudi Arabia and other Arab countries being pushed by the Biden Administration. For better or worse, their view was this would bring faster peace to the middle east. Instead, it now seems like just another proxy battle between Saudi and Iran which serves objectives of Hamas leaders financially with money from Iran (just as most aide ended up in PLO leadership pockets years before). A Saudi-Isreaal deal could lead to an infusion of Saudi money for the Palestinian Authority, a more moderate group than Hamas and the loss of money flowing to Hamas leaders.

Expect the Biden administration and Saudi Royals (indirectly) to provide weapons to Israel, and that will allow you to gauge the level of response by Israel. I'm not getting how this will help the Palestinians after Israel destroys the infrastructure in Gaza, and no one really cares about what either side thinks the their silly history lessons are at this point. We are where we are presently, as Gaza turns into rubble.

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Wow! You summed it up wonderfully, laid at the feet of Biden. Pfft!


And here I thought this guy was behind it all.



Or maybe we should ask this guy.



Or let's consult this guy:



Yesterday I was doing some reading about who ruled Israel before there was an Israel. I landed at a Wikipedia page on Mandatory Palestine (British). Then you can click on "preceded by" link to that which goes back to Ottoman Empire.

This page might be worth reading.
Before you dump it on Biden's lap.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestine_war#:~:text=19471948%20civil%20war%20in%20Mandatory%20Palestine,-Main%20article%3A%201947&text=The%20first%20phase%20of%20the,statehood%20on%2014%20May%201948.

I suppose I shouldn't be so harsh on you.
You're not saying the whole thing. You're saying the current, most recent back and forth. Okay, I get it.
But you elicit such a response with your headlining Biden Administration line. Come on, now.

MinotStateBeav said:

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Now neo-cons and neo-libs are trying to tie funding Ukraine and money for Israel together!! MORE BILLIONS!! How about no more money that we don't have to other countries until we have a budget that gets us to a point we aren't slashing social security 20% in 7 years!!!

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You do realize that the degredation of Russia's military capacity (and the continued deterrance of China in the Tawian Straights) is really a cheap investment.

Social security largely solved if we would raise the exemption cap to $250,000. But of course BI'ers that are well paid salaried Lawyers, bankers and doctors would scream.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/experts-propose-tax-cap-social-144535645.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAALu_KbcrireARVZeh6Q8ZmFvNvDdiEcaUJZyGOGVzmzRBUqQFi91_x8cLvKAFNViXDNoTGok2S45P4fUutmTVhDj8tQIbVMGQM_hJ3J8kPxdCeJbhwFVPoJKOGuL48qX_JZhYA332a9uUo5gBCQNPYKbkz5o8TgfFnG_wCkMk9vt#:~:text=Raising%20the%20Cap,capacity%20beyond%20the%20next%20decade.