BearGoggles said:

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There are now multiple videos on the internet. Not a single one shows Israel firing on Gazans. All of the videos show the Gazans running toward the food trucks (not away from bullets). The videos show Gazans being run over by the aid trucks.

If I'm mistaken, feel free to post the video of Israeli's firing at the food convoy.

Questions for you:

1.Why are the Gazans trying to grab food off the trucks before they reach the Hamas controlled areas?
2. Is there a reason the overall population would not trust Hamas to share the food?
3. Why hasn't Hamas released the hostages - or agreed to do so - which would produce a cease fire?
4. Why hasn't Hamas surrendered to end the suffering?
5. Why does Hamas spend all of its resources building tunnels and buying weapons, rather than feeding its own people?
6. It is fine that your suspicious of the Israeli/IDF narrative. Why aren't you equally suspicious of Hamas' claims - particularly when there is a proven track record of Hamas mischaracterizing events (e.g., The wildly exaggerated claims of death when a hospital was "bombed" which proved to be Palestinian groups bombing their own hospital).

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The person you are sparring with is just here to spread Russian disinformation fed to him indirectly through Russian channels. Based on the volume and sourcing I noticed before I put him on ignore, it was obviously coming from some coordinated handler or group of handlers - likely through discord servers for broadcast throughout the West. Twitter is full of bots who post the same type of coordinated garbage - it's an ever-evolving cast of clowns like lordbebo and spriter. They burn through them as they get found out and they move onto new ones. The main thread weaving through every single position Putin88 holds is that it amplifies Putin's talking points. In fact, he manages to be more pro-Putin than even the avowed public propagandists, because even those people have had to criticize the Kremlin at least a small percentage of the time to at least maintain the appearance of not being completely beholden, but Putin88 doesn't even bother with that in the least.

I have had him on ignore since before the Gaza terrorist event and avoid reading his drivel but can almost guarantee that he has taken positions re Gaza that are completely opposite what he claims to hold with respect to Ukraine. He probably doesn't talk about escalatory dominance or the fact that Hamas can't win the war. He probably isn't defending collateral damage the way he did in the Ukraine war (where he defended the Bucha massacre and numerous other atrocities as being Ukraine's fault for not surrendering to Putin's dominance).

He's not here to engage in an honest, open or good faith discussion, he's here to dissemble for Putin's regime. To what end still doesn't make any sense (I doubt he gets any rubles for it) but the pattern is 100% clear and dajo9 has been right about Cal88 since he called him out for it many years ago.

If you look at Putin88's profile and read through his posts, you will no doubt come to the same conclusion. As you probably know, Israel sees Putin for what he is and is helping Ukraine against their common enemy. That's who you are dealing with her, not some free thinker who genuinely believes whatever risible positions this are professed to be had on this forum.

Israel comes out swinging against Russia:

- Condemns Russia’s attack on Ukraine
- Draws attentions to Russia-Iran cooperation
- Calls Ukraine “an ally”
- Says Israel will provide Ukraine with an early warning system against missiles

🇮🇱🇺🇦

Via @Tendar pic.twitter.com/OeaA5jt3vK

— Visegrád 24 (@visegrad24) February 28, 2024

sycasey said:

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Big C said:

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I would never claim to know more about foreign affairs -- especially in that area of the world -- than Thomas Friedman,

However...

I was saying, like, on October 9th, that Israel -- no matter how horrific the Hanas attacks were -- was going to lose hearts and minds around the world, what with their harsh rhetoric and ham-handed response. I mean, eff Hamas, but Israel is just driving people over to their side. Huge mistake.

Friedman's just realizing this now?

And Biden's first response was to unconditionally support Israel, because he's old and that has been the knee-jerk US response since he was young. And then his second response was to hug Netanyahu, while using our influence behind the scenes to temper Israel's response. Okay, this is called good diplomacy, but people don't see what's going on "behind the scenes", by definition.

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I would also say that the US response is not just Biden. It's been long-standing US government policy to unconditionally support Israel in their disputes in the Middle East, for both parties and through multiple administrations.

I think this is foolish policy with a guy like Netanyahu in charge, who basically just takes our money and tells us to f*** off if we ask him to change his policies or approach. The assistance should come with conditions, and if the conditions are not met then the aid should stop. Unfortunately, there is a lot of inertia to reverse in order for us to get the majority of DC politicians there.

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Agree on all points.

sycasey said:

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Big C said:

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I would never claim to know more about foreign affairs -- especially in that area of the world -- than Thomas Friedman,

However...

I was saying, like, on October 9th, that Israel -- no matter how horrific the Hanas attacks were -- was going to lose hearts and minds around the world, what with their harsh rhetoric and ham-handed response. I mean, eff Hamas, but Israel is just driving people over to their side. Huge mistake.

Friedman's just realizing this now?

And Biden's first response was to unconditionally support Israel, because he's old and that has been the knee-jerk US response since he was young. And then his second response was to hug Netanyahu, while using our influence behind the scenes to temper Israel's response. Okay, this is called good diplomacy, but people don't see what's going on "behind the scenes", by definition.

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I would also say that the US response is not just Biden. It's been long-standing US government policy to unconditionally support Israel in their disputes in the Middle East, for both parties and through multiple administrations.

I think this is foolish policy with a guy like Netanyahu in charge, who basically just takes our money and tells us to f*** off if we ask him to change his policies or approach. The assistance should come with conditions, and if the conditions are not met then the aid should stop. Unfortunately, there is a lot of inertia to reverse in order for us to get the majority of DC politicians there.

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The continued obsession with Netanyahu is just bizarre. Israel is operating under a coalition government. If Netanyahu dies tomorrow, there would be literally no change in Israeli policy in Gaza. And if there was a change, it would more likely be to escalate the violence.

The Israeli population is behind the war effort and not in the mood to reach any settlement whereby Hamas remains in power. And there is very little Israeli support for pursuing a two state solution at this time - even if there is long term support for the concept.

The Netanyahu obsession is perhaps explained by the fact that Dems hate him for exposing Obama's failed middle east policies. That is the only reason I can fathom for the left's obsession.

Out of curiosity, what conditions would you place on the aid? And would similar conditions apply to Ukraine, Taiwan, and other foreign aid? Please be specific.

Also, I think we need to define what are US interests? How is it in the US interest to perpetuate the existence of Hamas? If Israel persists in its current policy (i.e., war in Gaza), what are the downsides to the US? For all the rhetoric, all the players in the middle east - with the exception of Iran - want Hamas removed. Who is the US currying favor with in pursuing Biden's current policy of equivocation? Is it just a domestic political play (Michigan)?

BearGoggles said:

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sycasey said:

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Big C said:

---

I would never claim to know more about foreign affairs -- especially in that area of the world -- than Thomas Friedman,

However...

I was saying, like, on October 9th, that Israel -- no matter how horrific the Hanas attacks were -- was going to lose hearts and minds around the world, what with their harsh rhetoric and ham-handed response. I mean, eff Hamas, but Israel is just driving people over to their side. Huge mistake.

Friedman's just realizing this now?

And Biden's first response was to unconditionally support Israel, because he's old and that has been the knee-jerk US response since he was young. And then his second response was to hug Netanyahu, while using our influence behind the scenes to temper Israel's response. Okay, this is called good diplomacy, but people don't see what's going on "behind the scenes", by definition.

---

I would also say that the US response is not just Biden. It's been long-standing US government policy to unconditionally support Israel in their disputes in the Middle East, for both parties and through multiple administrations.

I think this is foolish policy with a guy like Netanyahu in charge, who basically just takes our money and tells us to f*** off if we ask him to change his policies or approach. The assistance should come with conditions, and if the conditions are not met then the aid should stop. Unfortunately, there is a lot of inertia to reverse in order for us to get the majority of DC politicians there.

---

The continued obsession with Netanyahu is just bizarre. Israel is operating under a coalition government. If Netanyahu dies tomorrow, there would be literally no change in Israeli policy in Gaza. And if there was a change, it would more likely be to escalate the violence.

The Israeli population is behind the war effort and not in the mood to reach any settlement whereby Hamas remains in power. And there is very little Israeli support for pursuing a two state solution at this time - even if there is long term support for the concept.

The Netanyahu obsession is perhaps explained by the fact that Dems hate him for exposing Obama's failed middle east policies. That is the only reason I can fathom for the left's obsession.

Out of curiosity, what conditions would you place on the aid? And would similar conditions apply to Ukraine, Taiwan, and other foreign aid? Please be specific.

Also, I think we need to define what are US interests? How is it in the US interest to perpetuate the existence of Hamas? If Israel persists in its current policy (i.e., war in Gaza), what are the downsides to the US? For all the rhetoric, all the players in the middle east - with the exception of Iran - want Hamas removed. Who is the US currying favor with in pursuing Biden's current policy of equivocation? Is it just a domestic political play (Michigan)?

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Even if the Israeli population is behind the war effort, how do you feel this is going for them, in terms of their long-term prospects in the region?

Also, whoever said it is in the US interest to perpetuate the existence of Hamas? How have we been doing that? Or what reasonable people have proposed that we do that?

Full disclosure: I am, I suppose, by definition, a Zionist. But Israel's response to 10/7 seems as if it will not end well. A tiny country like that needs allies, even if they can punch above their weight, militarily.

BearGoggles said:

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sycasey said:

---

Big C said:

---

I would never claim to know more about foreign affairs -- especially in that area of the world -- than Thomas Friedman,

However...

I was saying, like, on October 9th, that Israel -- no matter how horrific the Hanas attacks were -- was going to lose hearts and minds around the world, what with their harsh rhetoric and ham-handed response. I mean, eff Hamas, but Israel is just driving people over to their side. Huge mistake.

Friedman's just realizing this now?

And Biden's first response was to unconditionally support Israel, because he's old and that has been the knee-jerk US response since he was young. And then his second response was to hug Netanyahu, while using our influence behind the scenes to temper Israel's response. Okay, this is called good diplomacy, but people don't see what's going on "behind the scenes", by definition.

---

I would also say that the US response is not just Biden. It's been long-standing US government policy to unconditionally support Israel in their disputes in the Middle East, for both parties and through multiple administrations.

I think this is foolish policy with a guy like Netanyahu in charge, who basically just takes our money and tells us to f*** off if we ask him to change his policies or approach. The assistance should come with conditions, and if the conditions are not met then the aid should stop. Unfortunately, there is a lot of inertia to reverse in order for us to get the majority of DC politicians there.

---

The continued obsession with Netanyahu is just bizarre. Israel is operating under a coalition government. If Netanyahu dies tomorrow, there would be literally no change in Israeli policy in Gaza. And if there was a change, it would more likely be to escalate the violence.

The Israeli population is behind the war effort and not in the mood to reach any settlement whereby Hamas remains in power. And there is very little Israeli support for pursuing a two state solution at this time - even if there is long term support for the concept.

The Netanyahu obsession is perhaps explained by the fact that Dems hate him for exposing Obama's failed middle east policies. That is the only reason I can fathom for the left's obsession.

Out of curiosity, what conditions would you place on the aid? And would similar conditions apply to Ukraine, Taiwan, and other foreign aid? Please be specific.

Also, I think we need to define what are US interests? How is it in the US interest to perpetuate the existence of Hamas? If Israel persists in its current policy (i.e., war in Gaza), what are the downsides to the US? For all the rhetoric, all the players in the middle east - with the exception of Iran - want Hamas removed. Who is the US currying favor with in pursuing Biden's current policy of equivocation? Is it just a domestic political play (Michigan)?

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I don't think we should provide any aid to Israel. The U.S. should not be involved in the Middle East. The place is full of groups whose actions can't be defended and the U.S. does not have a vital interest there.

I fully support aid to Ukraine because Russia has been attacking us for about a decade in soft warfare. The enemy of my enemy is my friend and Ukraine is my friend.

I'm fine with aid to Taiwan. They have been a good ally and trading partner. But if push comes to shove I have no interest in fighting a war over Taiwan. The Chips Act by Biden and the Democrats was greatly needed. The day will come when China retakes Taiwan and our industry needs to be prepared for that day.

Gaza doctor says gunfire accounted for 80% of the wounds at his hospital from aid convoy bloodshed https://t.co/2fBqoajx9Z

— The Associated Press (@AP) March 1, 2024

BREAKING: The EU will reinstate funding to UNRWA.

They previously suspended it based on Israels allegations (based on zero evidence) pic.twitter.com/gpq96nb9Zl

— Khalissee (@Kahlissee) March 1, 2024

Mark Regev caught red-handed lying again.

This was a 'bait' convoy. pic.twitter.com/0fVKMxjAZW

— Khalissee (@Kahlissee) March 2, 2024

Now Jews, I like.

Palestinians? Not so much...

bearister said:

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"You've got to finish the problem" Trump said on Fox News on Tuesday when asked about the war."

It all makes perfect sense now why Arab Americans would want to vote for tRump because he is Donald "I'm not owned by Netanyahu and I love Palestinians" tRump.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna141905

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A lot of the outrage is coming from the worst of the online leftists. Their hearts may be in the right place but they seem every bit as radicalized as the worst MAGAts and are only harming the causes they obsess over.

Harassing AOC, trying to dunk on Bernie, harassing children's cancer hospitals, harassing just about anyone and everything owned by jews, advocating for Trump to win, and setting yourselves on fucking fire and them celebrating said suicide...the list goes on and on. Jesus Christ.

— Di'Rico L. Baker (@DiRico_Rants) March 5, 2024

To have a position so unambiguously good, yet utterly fail as a political movement despite that is just...mind boggling.

— Di'Rico L. Baker (@DiRico_Rants) March 5, 2024

"Possibly the worst left-wing movement" that that tweeter "has ever seen"?

So... right up there with "defund the police" I guess.

sycasey said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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bearister said:

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"You've got to finish the problem" Trump said on Fox News on Tuesday when asked about the war."

It all makes perfect sense now why Arab Americans would want to vote for tRump because he is Donald "I'm not owned by Netanyahu and I love Palestinians" tRump.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna141905

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A lot of the outrage is coming from the worst of the online leftists. Their hearts may be in the right place but they seem every bit as radicalized as the worst MAGAts and are only harming the causes they obsess over.

Harassing AOC, trying to dunk on Bernie, harassing children's cancer hospitals, harassing just about anyone and everything owned by jews, advocating for Trump to win, and setting yourselves on fucking fire and them celebrating said suicide...the list goes on and on. Jesus Christ.

— Di'Rico L. Baker (@DiRico_Rants) March 5, 2024

To have a position so unambiguously good, yet utterly fail as a political movement despite that is just...mind boggling.

— Di'Rico L. Baker (@DiRico_Rants) March 5, 2024

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Yeah. I have a lot of issues with US policy w/r/t Israel, but lefty activists going after AOC (one of the current House members most sympathetic to Palestine) is completely counterproductive.

Do any of these people EVER protest Republicans? Doesn't seem like it.

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Leftists have no coherent ideology because everything they have ever tried failed so miserably. They live in constant anger so they latch onto totalitarian groups like Hamas to foment their next revolution.

Leftists hate Jews more than anyone because they despise a successful group that lives by its own beliefs that have passed down from generation to generation and refuses to join in their misery.

This is why leftists will continue to hound anyone who isn't supportive of a dictatorship to accomplish their goals. Who has time to persuade people to join their cause when they can make it happen through force?

Do you think there are more Right Wing Jewish people than Left Wing Jewish people….or does it depend on the issue?

CaliforniaEternal said:

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sycasey said:

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Unit2Sucks said:

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bearister said:

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"You've got to finish the problem" Trump said on Fox News on Tuesday when asked about the war."

It all makes perfect sense now why Arab Americans would want to vote for tRump because he is Donald "I'm not owned by Netanyahu and I love Palestinians" tRump.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna141905

---

A lot of the outrage is coming from the worst of the online leftists. Their hearts may be in the right place but they seem every bit as radicalized as the worst MAGAts and are only harming the causes they obsess over.

Harassing AOC, trying to dunk on Bernie, harassing children's cancer hospitals, harassing just about anyone and everything owned by jews, advocating for Trump to win, and setting yourselves on fucking fire and them celebrating said suicide...the list goes on and on. Jesus Christ.

— Di'Rico L. Baker (@DiRico_Rants) March 5, 2024

To have a position so unambiguously good, yet utterly fail as a political movement despite that is just...mind boggling.

— Di'Rico L. Baker (@DiRico_Rants) March 5, 2024

---

Yeah. I have a lot of issues with US policy w/r/t Israel, but lefty activists going after AOC (one of the current House members most sympathetic to Palestine) is completely counterproductive.

Do any of these people EVER protest Republicans? Doesn't seem like it.

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Leftists have no coherent ideology because everything they have ever tried failed so miserably. They live in constant anger so they latch onto totalitarian groups like Hamas to foment their next revolution.

Leftists hate Jews more than anyone because they despise a successful group that lives by its own beliefs that have passed down from generation to generation and refuses to join in their misery.

This is why leftists will continue to hound anyone who isn't supportive of a dictatorship to accomplish their goals. Who has time to persuade people to join their cause when they can make it happen through force?

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OK Peepaw

9-0 Wipeout said:

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Please just stop giving the Israelis weapons you psychos https://t.co/KRiJZSmh9J

— Dave DeCamp (@DecampDave) March 7, 2024

Israel - with US support - is blocking thousands of trucks from delivering aid into the Gaza death camp. Rather than force Israel to stop the blockade, Biden is deploying hundreds of US troops to build a port that will take weeks to complete and deliver a fraction of the aid. https://t.co/eSeQp3e3Iu

— Aaron Maté (@aaronjmate) March 7, 2024

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This is the best discussion I've seen on this craven PR stunt of Biden on this "temporary port in Gaza" while Biden let's Israel block humanitarian aid from the Rafah and Israel's borders while Palestinians are starving https://t.co/TkV11F1aPN pic.twitter.com/UMmZYend4c

— HalalFlow (@halalflow) March 8, 2024

CaliforniaEternal said:

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This man understands the situation. There will be no peace until all hostages are released.

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More hostages were freed during the last ceasefire than at any other time in this war.

sycasey said:

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CaliforniaEternal said:

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This man understands the situation. There will be no peace until all hostages are released.

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More hostages were freed during the last ceasefire than at any other time in this war.

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And?

sycasey said:

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oski003 said:

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sycasey said:

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CaliforniaEternal said:

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This man understands the situation. There will be no peace until all hostages are released.

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More hostages were freed during the last ceasefire than at any other time in this war.

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And?

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So maybe the constant military offensive isn't the best way to get the hostages back.

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They negotiate cease fires and hostage exchanges. They have been unsuccessful in recent negotiations. Perhaps, Hamas is reluctant to part with the rest of their hostages? This could be for a variety of reasons.

Without military pressure all of the hostages would still be in Gaza. What incentive would Hamas have to release anyone? There are still American citizens being held. Have you seen any call to unconditionally release the hostages by the pro-Hamas ceasefire crowd, human rights organizations, or the left wing governments backing Hamas?