The Non-Yogi Israel-Palestine war thread

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movielover
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In reply to Cal88 • 12:43p, 7/14/24
False. Trump crafted five Mideast peace deals and never went to war.

We'll have to wait and see to what he actually does. He says many things for leverage and negotiation points. Like his bluster towards KJ, while they later became friendly.
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Cal88
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11:07a, 7/19/24
Trump did sell out US foreign policy to megadonors like the Adelsons and Paul Singer, he allowed the annexation of illegally occupied territory (Golan Heights). Also, the statements made b Kushner on Gaza having prime beachfront property are pretty troubling.

A related news event today:





"The World Court ruled this afternoon that Israel's 57-year military occupation of the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza has mutated into an illegal act of annexation.

The ruling is earth-shattering for many reasons.

It confirms that Israel meets the legal definition of an apartheid state.

It points to the fact that Israel's creation of hundreds of Jewish-only colonies on Palestinian land is inherently tied to a programme of ethnic cleansing.

It reaffirms the legal reality that Israel has no "right of self-defence" when its annexation is a permanent and overt act of aggression against the Palestinian people.

It strongly suggests that for decades the West has been colluding in Israel's crimes against humanity, just as it is now actively complicit in Israel's genocide in Gaza.

It bolsters the case, made by prosecutors at the World Court's sister court, the International Criminal Court, that Netanyahu and the rest of the Israeli leadership are war criminals and should be arrested.

And it concludes that the Palestinians are owed massive reparations.

At a bare minimum, western governments must recognise the state of Palestine and impose sanctions on Israel until it withdraws from the occupied territories.

Watch them continue to do the exact opposite.

Watch them pretend that today's ruling never happened.

Watch them continue to make a mockery of international law."
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bearister
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In reply to Cal88 • 2:38p, 7/19/24
tRump Tower, Jeddah going up. How long ya figure until tRump International Golf Club & Resort, Beirut?

Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
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Big C
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In reply to bearister • 5:16p, 7/19/24

If Trump's still alive in five years, can you imagine how much the man's going to be worth?

Donald J. Trump, with immunity (these will be "official acts" he's going to enrich himself with). It could be mind boggling!
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bearister
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In reply to Big C • 5:37p, 7/19/24
Big C said:

If Trump's still alive in five years, can you imagine how much the man's going to be worth?

Donald J. Trump, with immunity (these will be "official acts" he's going to enrich himself with). It could be mind boggling!


Putin* and the late Muammar Gadaffi made the $200,000,000,000+ Club, why not God's Chosen One?

*I'm assuming we'll hear shortly that Vlady is a humble man with Spartan tastes that survives on a humble bureaucrat's stipend.
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
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Big C
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In reply to bearister • 11:40p, 7/19/24

If strongmen from relatively poor (or let's say "middlin'") countries can become multi-billionaires, imagine how much Trump will amass when he manages to leverage the US economy as part of his official duties!
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Cal88
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6:45a, 7/21/24
This short clip represents the mindset of the Israeli settler community, which drives the policies of the Netanyahu government:

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CaliforniaEternal
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10:08a, 7/21/24
This is what happens to Gazans when they criticize Hamas. Tortured and executed. Yet this is who the terrorist sympathizer "ceasefire" and "genocide" crowd want to keep in power.



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Cal88
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In reply to CaliforniaEternal • 10:27a, 7/21/24
CaliforniaEternal said:
This is what happens to Gazans when they criticize Hamas. Tortured and executed. Yet this is who the terrorist sympathizer "ceasefire" and "genocide" crowd want to keep in power.


Assuming this is true (quite a big assumption, given the body of lies from sources like the one above) - are 186,000 Gazans dying because they were killed by Hamas, or because Israel bombed their houses, their encampments, their hospitals, their water treatment plants and literally starved the whole population?

Few people are aware of the real picture of the massacres and violent occupation that the Israelis have inflicted on Palestinians since 1948, this short interview of Abby Martin on Joe Rogan provides some of the context that has been sorely missing in the reporting of events there:

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Cal88
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3:10p, 7/22/24
Overwhelming evidence of Israeli snipers targeting toddlers in Gaza:

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Chapman_is_Gone
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3:24p, 7/22/24
Incinerated children. Great band name.
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Eastern Oregon Bear
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In reply to Chapman_is_Gone • 3:42p, 7/22/24
Chapman_is_Gone said:
Incinerated children. Great band name.
Just another loser that can't stay away from this madhouse.
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Big C
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In reply to Cal88 • 4:03p, 7/22/24
Cal88 said:
This short clip represents the mindset of the Israeli settler community, which drives the policies of the Netanyahu government:


Honestly, I've never understood "the settlements" in the broader concept of maybe one day finding a lasting peace in the region. Just seems counter-productive to ever having a two-state solution (which is probably the only path forward).
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sycasey
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In reply to Big C • 4:06p, 7/22/24
Big C said:
Cal88 said:
This short clip represents the mindset of the Israeli settler community, which drives the policies of the Netanyahu government:


Honestly, I've never understood "the settlements" in the broader concept of maybe one day finding a lasting peace in the region. Just seems counter-productive to ever having a two-state solution (which is probably the only path forward).
The settlements have been obviously a bad idea for years, but Israeli government has been captured by their ideological right-wing flank who keeps pushing for them. The West Bank is the most legitimate piece of evidence for Israeli apartheid (two systems for two different ethnicities).
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BearGoggles
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In reply to sycasey • 4:21p, 7/22/24
sycasey said:
Big C said:
Cal88 said:
This short clip represents the mindset of the Israeli settler community, which drives the policies of the Netanyahu government:


Honestly, I've never understood "the settlements" in the broader concept of maybe one day finding a lasting peace in the region. Just seems counter-productive to ever having a two-state solution (which is probably the only path forward).
The settlements have been obviously a bad idea for years, but Israeli government has been captured by their ideological right-wing flank who keeps pushing for them. The West Bank is the most legitimate piece of evidence for Israeli apartheid (two systems for two different ethnicities).
There is an Israeli system (which applies to Arab/christian Israelis as well) for the areas controlled by the Israeli government and a Palestinian system for the areas governed by the Palestinian Authority. Either you don't understand the definition of apartheid or you have an incorrect understanding of the west bank.

While were on this topic, how are Jews treated in the PA areas and Gaza? How are Jews treated in the surrounding Arab counties?

And for the record, I agree settlements are bad. But you are wrong if you think that's the reason there is not a peace or a Palestinian state. If Israel stopped all settlements, would their be peace? What happened when the Israel did that in Gaza - literally removed all settlements? Would Hamas/IJ/others agree to peace on any terms. The will not.
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sycasey
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In reply to BearGoggles • 4:44p, 7/22/24
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
Big C said:
Cal88 said:
This short clip represents the mindset of the Israeli settler community, which drives the policies of the Netanyahu government:


Honestly, I've never understood "the settlements" in the broader concept of maybe one day finding a lasting peace in the region. Just seems counter-productive to ever having a two-state solution (which is probably the only path forward).
The settlements have been obviously a bad idea for years, but Israeli government has been captured by their ideological right-wing flank who keeps pushing for them. The West Bank is the most legitimate piece of evidence for Israeli apartheid (two systems for two different ethnicities).
There is an Israeli system (which applies to Arab/christian Israelis as well) for the areas controlled by the Israeli government and a Palestinian system for the areas governed by the Palestinian Authority. Either you don't understand the definition of apartheid or you have an incorrect understanding of the west bank.

While were on this topic, how are Jews treated in the PA areas and Gaza? How are Jews treated in the surrounding Arab counties?

And for the record, I agree settlements are bad. But you are wrong if you think that's the reason there is not a peace or a Palestinian state. If Israel stopped all settlements, would their be peace? What happened when the Israel did that in Gaza - literally removed all settlements? Would Hamas/IJ/others agree to peace on any terms. The will not.
Oh I am aware of what the "system" is in the West Bank. I'm saying that in practice, with the Israeli/Palestinian "controlled" areas constantly changing (thanks to the settlements), it winds up looking a lot like apartheid. If you're a regular citizen on the ground there it must be frustrating and confounding.

And no, I don't think it's the only reason for there being a conflict there. But it is bad.
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Big C
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In reply to BearGoggles • 4:51p, 7/22/24
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
Big C said:
Cal88 said:
This short clip represents the mindset of the Israeli settler community, which drives the policies of the Netanyahu government:


Honestly, I've never understood "the settlements" in the broader concept of maybe one day finding a lasting peace in the region. Just seems counter-productive to ever having a two-state solution (which is probably the only path forward).
The settlements have been obviously a bad idea for years, but Israeli government has been captured by their ideological right-wing flank who keeps pushing for them. The West Bank is the most legitimate piece of evidence for Israeli apartheid (two systems for two different ethnicities).
There is an Israeli system (which applies to Arab/christian Israelis as well) for the areas controlled by the Israeli government and a Palestinian system for the areas governed by the Palestinian Authority. Either you don't understand the definition of apartheid or you have an incorrect understanding of the west bank.

While were on this topic, how are Jews treated in the PA areas and Gaza? How are Jews treated in the surrounding Arab counties?

And for the record, I agree settlements are bad. But you are wrong if you think that's the reason there is not a peace or a Palestinian state. If Israel stopped all settlements, would their be peace? What happened when the Israel did that in Gaza - literally removed all settlements? Would Hamas/IJ/others agree to peace on any terms. The will not.

Full disclosure (for me): I am 100% in favor of the idea of having a state of Israel in that area. I understand, by definition, that makes me a Zionist. Then I am a proud one. I just don't see how the hardline approach taken by Netanyahu's government is helping. I will also readily admit that I have decent knowledge of this situation, but not much better than that. BearGoggles, what do you see as the path forward?
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BearGoggles
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In reply to Big C • 5:08p, 7/22/24
Big C said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
Big C said:
Cal88 said:
This short clip represents the mindset of the Israeli settler community, which drives the policies of the Netanyahu government:


Honestly, I've never understood "the settlements" in the broader concept of maybe one day finding a lasting peace in the region. Just seems counter-productive to ever having a two-state solution (which is probably the only path forward).
The settlements have been obviously a bad idea for years, but Israeli government has been captured by their ideological right-wing flank who keeps pushing for them. The West Bank is the most legitimate piece of evidence for Israeli apartheid (two systems for two different ethnicities).
There is an Israeli system (which applies to Arab/christian Israelis as well) for the areas controlled by the Israeli government and a Palestinian system for the areas governed by the Palestinian Authority. Either you don't understand the definition of apartheid or you have an incorrect understanding of the west bank.

While were on this topic, how are Jews treated in the PA areas and Gaza? How are Jews treated in the surrounding Arab counties?

And for the record, I agree settlements are bad. But you are wrong if you think that's the reason there is not a peace or a Palestinian state. If Israel stopped all settlements, would their be peace? What happened when the Israel did that in Gaza - literally removed all settlements? Would Hamas/IJ/others agree to peace on any terms. The will not.

Full disclosure (for me): I am 100% in favor of the idea of having a state of Israel in that area. I hear, by definition, that makes me a Zionist. Great. I just don't see how the hardline approach taken by Netanyahu's government is helping. I will also readily admit that I have decent knowledge of this situation, but not much better than that. BearGoggles, what do you see as the path forward?
It is easy to blame Netanyahu . . . but that is lazy in my view. Obama/Biden/etc have demonized Netanyahu because he has challenged them re Iran and their narrative has followed.

There is no easy path forward. What I say confidently is that a majority of Israeli citizens would be in favor of a two state solution and peace in general. There is a strong left in Israel albeit not in the current coalition. If there was a possible solution, the populace would rally toward that as they have with ALL OTHER peace deals. The problem is that most Israelis now believe that is not possible.

On the other hand, the Palestinian populace has been radicalized. The majority do not favor peace, settlement, or compromise on reasonable terms. Many reject the idea in all cases. There is no Palestinian left or pro-peace faction - those people are killed.

So what to do:

1. Depose Hamas. Reform the PA. Easier said than done. There will need to be an international force to administer Gaza. There will never be peace as long as Hamas has political power.
2. Attempt to change Palestinian points of view through education and economic opportunity. That will take a lot of time and may not be possible.
3. Reform the Palestinian educational system which is openly anti-jew and anti-israel.
4. The Palestinians should no longer have refugee status in the UN after 2030. They have to be responsible for themselves. There is no other example of any multi generational "refugees".
5. Make it clear that there will be no single state solution whereby there is no Israel. Palestinians need to give up the right of return - that is a fantasy.
6. Israel needs to give up territory. The territorial adjustments were essentially agreed to under Clinton. That should be the landing point.
7. To that point, make it clear to Israel that settlements are a non-starter. Tie this to aid. I don't think settlements are really the problem because they can be removed . . . but the Palestinians disagree.
8. Explicitly tell Iran that any attack from Hamas/Hezbollah is regarded (and will be treated) as an act undertaken by Iran.

This will take at least one generation. But the key is to limit the influence of extremists on both sides. I don't have high hopes as long as Iran is allowed to stir the pot.

In the interim, I think Israel deserves support both as an indispensable ally and morally. It is an imperfect country, but it generally ascribes to western Judeo Christian values. I can't say the same for Hamas.
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BearGoggles
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In reply to sycasey • 5:15p, 7/22/24
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
Big C said:
Cal88 said:
This short clip represents the mindset of the Israeli settler community, which drives the policies of the Netanyahu government:


Honestly, I've never understood "the settlements" in the broader concept of maybe one day finding a lasting peace in the region. Just seems counter-productive to ever having a two-state solution (which is probably the only path forward).
The settlements have been obviously a bad idea for years, but Israeli government has been captured by their ideological right-wing flank who keeps pushing for them. The West Bank is the most legitimate piece of evidence for Israeli apartheid (two systems for two different ethnicities).
There is an Israeli system (which applies to Arab/christian Israelis as well) for the areas controlled by the Israeli government and a Palestinian system for the areas governed by the Palestinian Authority. Either you don't understand the definition of apartheid or you have an incorrect understanding of the west bank.

While were on this topic, how are Jews treated in the PA areas and Gaza? How are Jews treated in the surrounding Arab counties?

And for the record, I agree settlements are bad. But you are wrong if you think that's the reason there is not a peace or a Palestinian state. If Israel stopped all settlements, would their be peace? What happened when the Israel did that in Gaza - literally removed all settlements? Would Hamas/IJ/others agree to peace on any terms. The will not.
Oh I am aware of what the "system" is in the West Bank. I'm saying that in practice, with the Israeli/Palestinian "controlled" areas constantly changing (thanks to the settlements), it winds up looking a lot like apartheid. If you're a regular citizen on the ground there it must be frustrating and confounding.

And no, I don't think it's the only reason for there being a conflict there. But it is bad.
It is quite ironic and hypocritical that you have been criticizing me for using the word groomer in an allegedly inflammatory way but here you are making allegations of Israeli apartheid that bear no resemblance to the actual definition.

Having distinct areas under separate governmental rule is, objectively, not apartheid. And the only areas where there is institutional racial/religious segregation are Gaza, the West Bank and a multitude of other Arab countries.

This is not complicated. Who has more rights: (i) Arabs and Christians in Israel; or (ii) Jews and other minorities in West Bank/Gaza/most Arab countries?
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sycasey
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In reply to BearGoggles • 5:58p, 7/22/24
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
Big C said:
Cal88 said:
This short clip represents the mindset of the Israeli settler community, which drives the policies of the Netanyahu government:


Honestly, I've never understood "the settlements" in the broader concept of maybe one day finding a lasting peace in the region. Just seems counter-productive to ever having a two-state solution (which is probably the only path forward).
The settlements have been obviously a bad idea for years, but Israeli government has been captured by their ideological right-wing flank who keeps pushing for them. The West Bank is the most legitimate piece of evidence for Israeli apartheid (two systems for two different ethnicities).
There is an Israeli system (which applies to Arab/christian Israelis as well) for the areas controlled by the Israeli government and a Palestinian system for the areas governed by the Palestinian Authority. Either you don't understand the definition of apartheid or you have an incorrect understanding of the west bank.

While were on this topic, how are Jews treated in the PA areas and Gaza? How are Jews treated in the surrounding Arab counties?

And for the record, I agree settlements are bad. But you are wrong if you think that's the reason there is not a peace or a Palestinian state. If Israel stopped all settlements, would their be peace? What happened when the Israel did that in Gaza - literally removed all settlements? Would Hamas/IJ/others agree to peace on any terms. The will not.
Oh I am aware of what the "system" is in the West Bank. I'm saying that in practice, with the Israeli/Palestinian "controlled" areas constantly changing (thanks to the settlements), it winds up looking a lot like apartheid. If you're a regular citizen on the ground there it must be frustrating and confounding.

And no, I don't think it's the only reason for there being a conflict there. But it is bad.
It is quite ironic and hypocritical that you have been criticizing me for using the word groomer in an allegedly inflammatory way but here you are making allegations of Israeli apartheid that bear no resemblance to the actual definition.

Go back and read what I wrote, dude. I said the settlements (and the system that's built up around them) were the best bit of evidence to support the claim. It's not literally the same as South African apartheid, no.

You keep bringing up Hamas or other radical Islamic governments. No, that would not be better. Doesn't mean Israel can't be criticized too.
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Cal88
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In reply to BearGoggles • 6:05p, 7/22/24
BearGoggles said:
Big C said:



Full disclosure (for me): I am 100% in favor of the idea of having a state of Israel in that area. I hear, by definition, that makes me a Zionist. Great. I just don't see how the hardline approach taken by Netanyahu's government is helping. I will also readily admit that I have decent knowledge of this situation, but not much better than that. BearGoggles, what do you see as the path forward?
It is easy to blame Netanyahu . . . but that is lazy in my view. Obama/Biden/etc have demonized Netanyahu because he has challenged them re Iran and their narrative has followed.

There is no easy path forward. What I say confidently is that a majority of Israeli citizens would be in favor of a two state solution and peace in general. There is a strong left in Israel albeit not in the current coalition. If there was a possible solution, the populace would rally toward that as they have with ALL OTHER peace deals. The problem is that most Israelis now believe that is not possible.

Utterly false, Israel's parliament overwhelmingly rejected the two state solution:

Israel's parliament has passed a resolution that overwhelmingly rejected the establishment of a Palestinian state, Israeli media reported.

The resolution passed in the Knesset with 68 votes in favour and just nine against it early on Thursday.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/7/18/israels-knesset-votes-to-reject-palestinian-statehood


Quote:

On the other hand, the Palestinian populace has been radicalized. The majority do not favor peace, settlement, or compromise on reasonable terms. Many reject the idea in all cases. There is no Palestinian left or pro-peace faction - those people are killed.

The great majority of Palestinians, the Arab world and pretty much the rest of the world are all in favor of a 2-state solution along the lines of the 1967 borders.

The people doing the killing are the Israelis. They are killing nearly 200,000 people in Gaza in just one year, according to the Lancet study, and slaughtering and maiming tens of thousands of Palestinian children. During the last major peaceful march in Gaza, Israeli snipers shot over 7,000 unarmed marchers, maiming thousands.

Most people have no idea of the level of repression in Palestine; nearly 40% of Palestinian men have been detained in jail, mostly without charges, and that includes Palestinian civic and political leaders.

It's the Israeli populace that has been radicalized, only 4% of Israeli Jews think that Israel has gone too far in its Gaza bombing campaign, while almost half of them think Israel has not gone far enough.

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Cal88
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In reply to sycasey • 6:19p, 7/22/24
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
Big C said:
Cal88 said:
This short clip represents the mindset of the Israeli settler community, which drives the policies of the Netanyahu government:


Honestly, I've never understood "the settlements" in the broader concept of maybe one day finding a lasting peace in the region. Just seems counter-productive to ever having a two-state solution (which is probably the only path forward).
The settlements have been obviously a bad idea for years, but Israeli government has been captured by their ideological right-wing flank who keeps pushing for them. The West Bank is the most legitimate piece of evidence for Israeli apartheid (two systems for two different ethnicities).
There is an Israeli system (which applies to Arab/christian Israelis as well) for the areas controlled by the Israeli government and a Palestinian system for the areas governed by the Palestinian Authority. Either you don't understand the definition of apartheid or you have an incorrect understanding of the west bank.

While were on this topic, how are Jews treated in the PA areas and Gaza? How are Jews treated in the surrounding Arab counties?

And for the record, I agree settlements are bad. But you are wrong if you think that's the reason there is not a peace or a Palestinian state. If Israel stopped all settlements, would their be peace? What happened when the Israel did that in Gaza - literally removed all settlements? Would Hamas/IJ/others agree to peace on any terms. The will not.
Oh I am aware of what the "system" is in the West Bank. I'm saying that in practice, with the Israeli/Palestinian "controlled" areas constantly changing (thanks to the settlements), it winds up looking a lot like apartheid. If you're a regular citizen on the ground there it must be frustrating and confounding.

And no, I don't think it's the only reason for there being a conflict there. But it is bad.
It is quite ironic and hypocritical that you have been criticizing me for using the word groomer in an allegedly inflammatory way but here you are making allegations of Israeli apartheid that bear no resemblance to the actual definition.

Go back and read what I wrote, dude. I said the settlements (and the system that's built up around them) were the best bit of evidence to support the claim. It's not literally the same as South African apartheid, no.

You keep bringing up Hamas or other radical Islamic governments. No, that would not be better. Doesn't mean Israel can't be criticized too.

Israeli apartheid is much worse than the South African version, and this according to people who are well placed to make that judgment like Bishop Tutu and other South African politicians:



https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-apartheid-far-more-brutal-than-anything-we-saw-in-south-africa-says-former-politician/3102328

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israeli-apartheid-far-more-brutal-than-anything-we-saw-in-south-africa-says-former-politician/3102328



Massacres of the scale of the worst massacre in Apartheid-era South Africa have been exceeded every week in Palestine since October, with the difference that unlike in S Africa most of the civilians massacred in Gaza are children.

Even Israeli Arab citizens are subject to apartheid, as explained by this Jewish American historian:

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Cal88
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In reply to BearGoggles • 7:44p, 7/22/24
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:

Oh I am aware of what the "system" is in the West Bank. I'm saying that in practice, with the Israeli/Palestinian "controlled" areas constantly changing (thanks to the settlements), it winds up looking a lot like apartheid. If you're a regular citizen on the ground there it must be frustrating and confounding.

And no, I don't think it's the only reason for there being a conflict there. But it is bad.
It is quite ironic and hypocritical that you have been criticizing me for using the word groomer in an allegedly inflammatory way but here you are making allegations of Israeli apartheid that bear no resemblance to the actual definition.

Having distinct areas under separate governmental rule is, objectively, not apartheid. And the only areas where there is institutional racial/religious segregation are Gaza, the West Bank and a multitude of other Arab countries.

This is not complicated. Who has more rights: (i) Arabs and Christians in Israel; or (ii) Jews and other minorities in West Bank/Gaza/most Arab countries?


You're right, this is not complicated. Arab Christians have been horribly persecuted in Palestine. There is no equivalent to the kind of state and spontaneous popular harassment that Christians in Palestine go through.







This is the second most powerful Israeli politician today, National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir, stating that spitting on Christians is a perfectly acceptable "tradition":



Of course it can get much worse than being spat on for Christians in Israel - Israel bombs ancient churches in Palestine that have been unmolested for centuries under Muslim rule, and arson attacks on churches are widespread and not very seriously prosecuted, and for the Israeli army, Christian Arab civilians are just as good a target as their Muslim brethren:








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BearGoggles
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In reply to Cal88 • 8:30p, 7/22/24
Cal88 said:


The great majority of Palestinians, the Arab world and pretty much the rest of the world are all in favor of a 2-state solution along the lines of the 1967 borders.

The people doing the killing are the Israelis. They are killing nearly 200,000 people in Gaza in just one year, according to the Lancet study, and slaughtering and maiming tens of thousands of Palestinian children. During the last major peaceful march in Gaza, Israeli snipers shot over 7,000 unarmed marchers, maiming thousands.



This is provably false. There are no recent polls showing anywhere near a majority (much less a great majority) of Palestinians are in favor of a two state solution

In this recent study, almost three quarters of Palestinians are against this (73%).

https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969

In this poll, with answers collected pre 10/7/23, the results are similar. Note that support for a two state solution was lowest among younger people . . . because they've been radicalized.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/512828/palestinians-lack-faith-biden-two-state-solution.aspx

Feel free to post a link to an legitimate poll showing that a "great majority" of Palestinians support a two state solution. I'll wait.

There is no evidence that Israel has killed 200,000 people in Gaza. That is just made up, like most of what you claim.

There is lots of evidence Hamas is directly responsible for the death of a lot of people - including all the Gazans who have died since 10/7.

It is remarkable how you have no pretense of good faith.


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Big C
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In reply to BearGoggles • 9:46p, 7/22/24
BearGoggles said:
Big C said:
BearGoggles said:
sycasey said:
Big C said:
Cal88 said:
This short clip represents the mindset of the Israeli settler community, which drives the policies of the Netanyahu government:


Honestly, I've never understood "the settlements" in the broader concept of maybe one day finding a lasting peace in the region. Just seems counter-productive to ever having a two-state solution (which is probably the only path forward).
The settlements have been obviously a bad idea for years, but Israeli government has been captured by their ideological right-wing flank who keeps pushing for them. The West Bank is the most legitimate piece of evidence for Israeli apartheid (two systems for two different ethnicities).
There is an Israeli system (which applies to Arab/christian Israelis as well) for the areas controlled by the Israeli government and a Palestinian system for the areas governed by the Palestinian Authority. Either you don't understand the definition of apartheid or you have an incorrect understanding of the west bank.

While were on this topic, how are Jews treated in the PA areas and Gaza? How are Jews treated in the surrounding Arab counties?

And for the record, I agree settlements are bad. But you are wrong if you think that's the reason there is not a peace or a Palestinian state. If Israel stopped all settlements, would their be peace? What happened when the Israel did that in Gaza - literally removed all settlements? Would Hamas/IJ/others agree to peace on any terms. The will not.

Full disclosure (for me): I am 100% in favor of the idea of having a state of Israel in that area. I hear, by definition, that makes me a Zionist. Great. I just don't see how the hardline approach taken by Netanyahu's government is helping. I will also readily admit that I have decent knowledge of this situation, but not much better than that. BearGoggles, what do you see as the path forward?
It is easy to blame Netanyahu . . . but that is lazy in my view. Obama/Biden/etc have demonized Netanyahu because he has challenged them re Iran and their narrative has followed.

There is no easy path forward. What I say confidently is that a majority of Israeli citizens would be in favor of a two state solution and peace in general. There is a strong left in Israel albeit not in the current coalition. If there was a possible solution, the populace would rally toward that as they have with ALL OTHER peace deals. The problem is that most Israelis now believe that is not possible.

On the other hand, the Palestinian populace has been radicalized. The majority do not favor peace, settlement, or compromise on reasonable terms. Many reject the idea in all cases. There is no Palestinian left or pro-peace faction - those people are killed.

So what to do:

1. Depose Hamas. Reform the PA. Easier said than done. There will need to be an international force to administer Gaza. There will never be peace as long as Hamas has political power.
2. Attempt to change Palestinian points of view through education and economic opportunity. That will take a lot of time and may not be possible.
3. Reform the Palestinian educational system which is openly anti-jew and anti-israel.
4. The Palestinians should no longer have refugee status in the UN after 2030. They have to be responsible for themselves. There is no other example of any multi generational "refugees".
5. Make it clear that there will be no single state solution whereby there is no Israel. Palestinians need to give up the right of return - that is a fantasy.
6. Israel needs to give up territory. The territorial adjustments were essentially agreed to under Clinton. That should be the landing point.
7. To that point, make it clear to Israel that settlements are a non-starter. Tie this to aid. I don't think settlements are really the problem because they can be removed . . . but the Palestinians disagree.
8. Explicitly tell Iran that any attack from Hamas/Hezbollah is regarded (and will be treated) as an act undertaken by Iran.

This will take at least one generation. But the key is to limit the influence of extremists on both sides. I don't have high hopes as long as Iran is allowed to stir the pot.

In the interim, I think Israel deserves support both as an indispensable ally and morally. It is an imperfect country, but it generally ascribes to western Judeo Christian values. I can't say the same for Hamas.

All that sounds pretty good to me, I think.
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Cal88
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In reply to BearGoggles • 9:46p, 7/22/24
BearGoggles said:
Cal88 said:


The great majority of Palestinians, the Arab world and pretty much the rest of the world are all in favor of a 2-state solution along the lines of the 1967 borders.

The people doing the killing are the Israelis. They are killing nearly 200,000 people in Gaza in just one year, according to the Lancet study, and slaughtering and maiming tens of thousands of Palestinian children. During the last major peaceful march in Gaza, Israeli snipers shot over 7,000 unarmed marchers, maiming thousands.



This is provably false. There are no recent polls showing anywhere near a majority (much less a great majority) of Palestinians are in favor of a two state solution

In this recent study, almost three quarters of Palestinians are against this (73%).

https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969

In this poll, with answers collected pre 10/7/23, the results are similar. Note that support for a two state solution was lowest among younger people . . . because they've been radicalized.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/512828/palestinians-lack-faith-biden-two-state-solution.aspx

Feel free to post a link to an legitimate poll showing that a "great majority" of Palestinians support a two state solution. I'll wait.

There is no evidence that Israel has killed 200,000 people in Gaza. That is just made up, like most of what you claim.

There is lots of evidence Hamas is directly responsible for the death of a lot of people - including all the Gazans who have died since 10/7.

It is remarkable how you have no pretense of good faith.


You have the gall to state that Hamas is directly responsible for the ongoing genocide that the Israeli army is conducting on Gaza, and then attack my good faith??

In what sick, twisted world are Palestinians responsible for old ladies and their families being shot by Israeli snipers in front of their church, or hundreds of children being hit through the heart or head by Israeli snipers??

What kind of country has a member of parliament who boasts about his countrymen killing 150 patients in a hospital orthopedic ward and bemoans the birth of Palestinian babies, which he considers terrorists?


You're the guy who claimed that Israel wasn't carpet bombing Gaza, and argued vehemently that it was a Palestinian rocket that blew up a Gaza Hospital, discussion which became a moot point after Israel went on to bomb nearly every other hospital there...

Did Hamas cause an Israeli soldier to shoot this kid's pregnant mother in the stomach?


Did Hamas cause an Israeli soldier to shoot this little girl's friend in the stomach?


And this girl is starving because of Hamas, not because Israel is conducting a medieval siege on a captive population, willfully creating the conditions for much greater deaths from untreated injuries, starvation and disease than the tens of thousands they are currently cilling through their massive carpet bombing - that is the premise of the Lancet's estimate of 186,000 deaths in Gaza from the current Israeli destruction of Gaza.






The main reason Palestinians would be against a two state solution is that the version that is being pushed on them, and that they have been experiencing for the last few decades, is their side being hemned in into a series of enclaved "bantustans" under apartheid (last map on the right), as opposed to a real independent state along the 1967 borders:
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Eastern Oregon Bear
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6:06p, 7/23/24
While I'm disgusted by Israel's massive overreaction, none of this would have happened if Hamas hadn't picked a fight with Israel that they had no hope of winning. A pox on both their houses.
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Cal88
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6:54p, 7/23/24
The "fight" started in 1947, it consists of a massive and steady ethnic cleansing, with a long series of massacres.

1948- The Deir Yassin Massacre
1948-Abu Shusha Massacre
1948-Tantura Massacre
1948-Lydda Massacre
1948- Saliha Massacre
1948- AL Dawayima Massacre
1953-Qibya Massacre
1956-Kafr Qasim Massacre
1956- Khan Yunis Massacre
1956-Rafah Massacre
1970-Bahr El Baqar Massacre
1982-Sabra and Shatila Massacre
1990- AL Aqsa Massacre
1994- The Ibrahimi Mosque Massacre Massacre
2002- Jenin Refugee Camp Massacre
Gaza Massacre 2008-2009,
Gaza 2012,
Gaza 2014,
Gaza 2018, 2019 2021,
Gaza 2023 and 2024

This last edition has been particularly savage.


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Big C
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In reply to Cal88 • 10:43p, 7/23/24
Cal88 said:
BearGoggles said:
Cal88 said:


The great majority of Palestinians, the Arab world and pretty much the rest of the world are all in favor of a 2-state solution along the lines of the 1967 borders.

The people doing the killing are the Israelis. They are killing nearly 200,000 people in Gaza in just one year, according to the Lancet study, and slaughtering and maiming tens of thousands of Palestinian children. During the last major peaceful march in Gaza, Israeli snipers shot over 7,000 unarmed marchers, maiming thousands.



This is provably false. There are no recent polls showing anywhere near a majority (much less a great majority) of Palestinians are in favor of a two state solution

In this recent study, almost three quarters of Palestinians are against this (73%).

https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969

In this poll, with answers collected pre 10/7/23, the results are similar. Note that support for a two state solution was lowest among younger people . . . because they've been radicalized.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/512828/palestinians-lack-faith-biden-two-state-solution.aspx

Feel free to post a link to an legitimate poll showing that a "great majority" of Palestinians support a two state solution. I'll wait.

There is no evidence that Israel has killed 200,000 people in Gaza. That is just made up, like most of what you claim.

There is lots of evidence Hamas is directly responsible for the death of a lot of people - including all the Gazans who have died since 10/7.

It is remarkable how you have no pretense of good faith.


You have the gall to state that Hamas is directly responsible for the ongoing genocide that the Israeli army is conducting on Gaza, and then attack my good faith??

In what sick, twisted world are Palestinians responsible for old ladies and their families being shot by Israeli snipers in front of their church, or hundreds of children being hit through the heart or head by Israeli snipers??

What kind of country has a member of parliament who boasts about his countrymen killing 150 patients in a hospital orthopedic ward and bemoans the birth of Palestinian babies, which he considers terrorists?


You're the guy who claimed that Israel wasn't carpet bombing Gaza, and argued vehemently that it was a Palestinian rocket that blew up a Gaza Hospital, discussion which became a moot point after Israel went on to bomb nearly every other hospital there...

Did Hamas cause an Israeli soldier to shoot this kid's pregnant mother in the stomach?


Did Hamas cause an Israeli soldier to shoot this little girl's friend in the stomach?


And this girl is starving because of Hamas, not because Israel is conducting a medieval siege on a captive population, willfully creating the conditions for much greater deaths from untreated injuries, starvation and disease than the tens of thousands they are currently cilling through their massive carpet bombing - that is the premise of the Lancet's estimate of 186,000 deaths in Gaza from the current Israeli destruction of Gaza.






The main reason Palestinians would be against a two state solution is that the version that is being pushed on them, and that they have been experiencing for the last few decades, is their side being hemned in into a series of enclaved "bantustans" under apartheid (last map on the right), as opposed to a real independent state along the 1967 borders:

Any sane person who isn't already invested in this would say just take the average of these four maps, draw something up, tweak it a little bit and call it a day.

Somebody on this thread suggested that, if that can't get done, we ought to just get the hell out of there and I'm starting to agree with that, especially as we become less and less dependent on Middle East oil.

This is reminding me of one of the worst (original) Star Trek episodes of all time, where the two peoples who were opposites (except they weren't) couldn't stop fighting each other. Gene Roddenberry was great at allegories.
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dimitrig
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In reply to 3 Days Since Dem Coup • 10:54a, 7/24/24
3 Days Since Dem Coup said:



I thought Republicans love Israel.

Moving the US embassy to Jerusalem was one of the first things Trump did.

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sycasey
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In reply to dimitrig • 12:01p, 7/24/24
dimitrig said:
3 Days Since Dem Coup said:



I thought Republicans love Israel.

Moving the US embassy to Jerusalem was one of the first things Trump did.

Yeah, the truth of US politics is that even if you don't like the Biden/Harris support of Israel, the Republicans are almost certainly worse.
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bearister
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2:04p, 7/24/24
Regarding Bibi's speech to Congress today:

" Netanyahu was invited to speak primarily by House Speaker Mike Johnson, who has been severely critical of President Joe Biden's response to the war, including pausing a shipment of large unguided U.S. bombs due to concerns about civilian casualties. Republicans have pushed back, saying that pausing that shipment violates Israel's right to defend itself."

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/netanyahu-speaks-congress-amid-political-tensions-us-israel-war-gaza/story?id=112227122

It is curious to me how former Leftists that now support tRump use the term Genocide Joe for President Biden when it is tRump that said at the debate that Israel should be allowed to "finish the job" and it is the Republicans that attack Biden for not providing sufficient arms to Israel.

It appears that the former Leftists' only real concern is installing Trump "to hasten the social crisis that will open the door for their revolution."(Jonathan Chait). They could care less that tRump will let Bibi kill as many Palestinians as he wants, as long as tRump blows up the system for them.

Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
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Big C
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In reply to dimitrig • 2:11p, 7/24/24
dimitrig said:
3 Days Since Dem Coup said:



I thought Republicans love Israel.

Moving the US embassy to Jerusalem was one of the first things Trump did.


Some people think it's easy to be a Republican, but it's not:

Can you imagine waking up every morning and having to figure out if you like Jews or you hate them?

It's rough out there, I tell you...
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bearister
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2:13p, 7/24/24

Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
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CaliforniaEternal
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3:18p, 7/24/24
The IDF recovered the bodies of three hostages. May their memories be a blessing. This fight will not end until all hostages are released and Hamas is no longer in power in Gaza. The world cannot tolerate their evil.




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