The Non-Yogi Israel-Palestine war thread

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dajo9
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3:41p, 10/18/23
The whole previous page of this thread is like the whole Israel / Palestine conflict.

tl/dr
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wifeisafurd
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In reply to dajo9 • 3:58p, 10/18/23
dajo9 said:
This whole previous page of this thread is like the whole Israel / Palestine conflict.

tl/dr
It does in substance, content and format.I endorse this post
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KPG
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4:00p, 10/18/23
Finally something we can all agree on!
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Big C
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In reply to dajo9 • 4:41p, 10/18/23
dajo9 said:
This whole previous page of this thread is like the whole Israel / Palestine conflict.

tl/dr

Yeah, I get that a lot of people are -- for whatever reason -- solidly on one side or the other. Heck, Big Game Week, I am going to be solidly on one side, too. Good vs Evil. Because I am at least as one-sided as any of you.

But there is a middle ground here:

Fact: Hamas (especially the ones involved in last week's attack) = bad guys

My opinion: the "hard right" in Israel, while "better' than Hamas, is kinda bad, too.

Fact: Israel may have bombed the hospital. Or maybe not.

Fact: Hamas may have been using the hospital as a human/political shield to conduct their operations. Or maybe not.

My opinion: a lot of people who are really into most any religion and use that "faith" for political purposes are not making our world a better place.

Fact: Doesn't really matter what happened to that hospital; Isreal is in quite the pickle. It's bad enough that they are surrounded by potential enemies, they really don't want to alienate any more people around the region (and around the world) who might be semi-neutral towards their situation, but that is exactly what's happening. Maybe they couldn't do anything about that hospital, but what about their bellicose rhetoric?

There are Arab/Islamic countries that are against Hamas and not opposed to the state of Israel. Take Saudi Arabia, for example. But let's remember that most of the 9/11 terrorists from Al Qaida, when they became disenchanted with their country's hierarchy. Can't you see the next generation of Al Qaida incubating right now?

This is a war of propaganda, a war for the hearts and minds...

Hamas cannot be seen as winning anything, as a result of their horrific attack. They need to be seen as paying a price, a steep price. But Israel cannot be making too many more enemies here. Otherwise, how's it going to end up for them? And I don't want to be in the next World Trade Center when it falls, just because some radical nuts blame America for all this.


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KPG
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8:00p, 10/18/23
Here is the best five minute investigative video I have found to date regarding the hospital:

https://www.channel4.com/news/who-was-behind-the-gaza-hospital-blast-visual-investigation


Spoiler - it reaches no conclusions, states and summarizes the evidence of "both sides" and highlights why each side has yet to conclusively prove anything, and provides on the ground reporting coupled with historic background. Neither "side" will find this satisfying, so hopefully as it satisfied none it may for now satisfy all.

Edit: For those non-Anglophiles, here's a quick Wikipedia summary of 'Channel 4', a public British station:

Channel 4 is a British free-to-air public broadcast television channel owned and operated by the state-owned Channel Four Television Corporation. It is publicly owned but, unlike the BBC, it receives no public funding and is funded entirely by its own commercial activities, including publicity.

Edit 2: Here is Alex Thomson's Twitter for those wanting to get a better sense of his point of view: https://x.com/alextomo?t=pWNN_K0SxiDNv32h17JeSg&s=09

He openly questions the claim of 471 dead based on the video evidence / relatively light level of destruction that doesn't seem to match that figure on his twitter.
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Cal88
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8:20p, 10/18/23
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wifeisafurd
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In reply to KPG • 8:22p, 10/18/23
KPG said:
Here is the best five minute investigative video I have found to date regarding the hospital:

https://www.channel4.com/news/who-was-behind-the-gaza-hospital-blast-visual-investigation


Spoiler - it reaches no conclusions, states and summarizes the evidence of "both sides" and highlights why each side has yet to conclusively prove anything, and provides on the ground reporting coupled with historic background. Neither "side" will find this satisfying, so hopefully as it satisfied none it may for now satisfy all.

Edit: For those non-Anglophiles, here's a quick Wikipedia summary of 'Channel 4', a public British station:

Channel 4 is a British free-to-air public broadcast television channel owned and operated by the state-owned Channel Four Television Corporation. It is publicly owned but, unlike the BBC, it receives no public funding and is funded entirely by its own commercial activities, including publicity.

Edit 2: Here is Alex Thomson's Twitter for those wanting to get a better sense of his point of view: https://x.com/alextomo?t=pWNN_K0SxiDNv32h17JeSg&s=09

He openly questions the claim of 471 dead based on the video evidence / relatively light level of destruction that doesn't seem to match that figure on his twitter.
I guess all those evil corporate talking heads like CNN blaming those notorious bad Iranian engines while replaying again again the luanching and fall of the missile from the next door lot are stooges for Israel.

Not on their website yet is the discus between Kaitlan Collins and the CNN armaments expert going through repeated replays of the film and explaining what is happening at every moment has not been out the website yet, but here is the film from an early presentation by Erin Burnett:

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/18/gaza-rocket-hospital-blast-vpx.cnn
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dimitrig
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In reply to Cal88 • 8:25p, 10/18/23
Cal88 said:


*** is wrong with this country?

US Ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield explained her country's veto in the Council chamber saying "this resolution did not mention Israel's right of self-defence."

"Israel has the inherent sight of self-defence as reflected in Article 51 of the UN Charter," she added, noting that the right was reaffirmed by the Council in previous resolutions on terrorist attacks, "this resolution should have done the same."
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bearister
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8:27p, 10/18/23
US vetoes UN resolution condemning all violence against civilians in Israel-Hamas war | AP News


https://apnews.com/article/un-security-council-resolution-gaza-hamas-1c23913f8552f5379b2c158a83493835
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MinotStateBeav
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In reply to Cal88 • 11:00p, 10/18/23
Cal88 said:
I don't want the United States involved at all, that includes the UN. Let's recap who leads the United Nations human rights council lol. Why doesn't Hamas say "I quit?"
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sonofabear51
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In reply to bearister • 12:28a, 10/19/23
***?
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MinotStateBeav
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12:59a, 10/19/23


Probably the most mature response to the Israel response, especially from a US perspective.
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tequila4kapp
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In reply to Cal88 • 7:31a, 10/19/23
Cal88 said:

Good. It has already been going on 2 weeks since Israel was invaded. Further delay only helps Hamas. It gives them time to prepare to fight, time to work the PR machine, and they'll steal the aid. Want to help the Palestinians? How about a UN resolution forcing Hamas to allow them to move freely within Gaza for safety as Israel announces where it will attack (pause for a second. Israel has to announce where it will operate…in a war). Or how about a resolution forcing Egypt to let them cross the border and leave Gaza, a war zone. The Palestinians are pawns used by the Arab world to manipulate the victims of an invasion and victim of terrorism.

A creative solution that allows Palestinians to escape Gaza to the north wouldn't be the worst thing either, though undoubtedly the Arab world would decry it and Hamas would probably use force to stop it, too.
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Cal88
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In reply to tequila4kapp • 10:04a, 10/19/23
tequila4kapp said:


Good. It has already been going on 2 weeks since Israel was invaded. Further delay only helps Hamas. It gives them time to prepare to fight, time to work the PR machine, and they'll steal the aid. Want to help the Palestinians? How about a UN resolution forcing Hamas to allow them to move freely within Gaza for safety as Israel announces where it will attack (pause for a second. Israel has to announce where it will operate…in a war). Or how about a resolution forcing Egypt to let them cross the border and leave Gaza, a war zone. The Palestinians are pawns used by the Arab world to manipulate the victims of an invasion and victim of terrorism.

A creative solution that allows Palestinians to escape Gaza to the north wouldn't be the worst thing either, though undoubtedly the Arab world would decry it and Hamas would probably use force to stop it, too.

People in Gaza, an open-air prison camp currently under attack, are mostly refugees and their descendants who have been ethnically cleansed from Palestine in 1948 by the Israelis. If they go to Egypt, they won't be able to return to Palestine/Gaza (as Israel controls entry points), that has been the pattern since 1948.

On the hospital bombing:


Forensics evidence in the area points to the use of a thermobaric JDAM by the Israeli air force, which are typically set to explode above ground to inflict maximum damage (hence the lack of a large crater on the ground). This is consistent with the pattern of destruction (roof compression on autos indicating pressure from above, high casualties, charred autos in a wide area and relatively low physical damage to nearby structures)







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bearister
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In reply to Cal88 • 10:21a, 10/19/23
Chay Bowes, among other things, is an RT correspondent. It doesn't mean he isn't telling the truth. It just means that he fails the "Agenda Free Purity Test" that I'm advised here my sources repeatedly fail.

*He is Irish, which gives him automatic bonus points in my ledger.
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tequila4kapp
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10:24a, 10/19/23
Reports indicate (summary from scrolling news ticker so apologize if it is imprecise):
- IDF says ground invasion is coming
- Hezbellah says they will invade/attack/respond if IDF attacks
- US says it will enter war if Hezbellah initiates attack against Israel

This is not good.
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Cal88
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In reply to bearister • 11:06a, 10/19/23
bearister said:
Chay Bowes, among other things, is an RT correspondent. It doesn't mean he isn't telling the truth. It just means that he fails the "Agenda Free Purity Test" that I'm advised here my sources repeatedly fail.

*He is Irish, which gives him automatic bonus points in my ledger.

I took that out as it didn't add much info.
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bearister
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In reply to Cal88 • 11:51a, 10/19/23
" I took that out as it didn't add much info."
If you are referring to his ethnicity….

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Lets Go Brandon 17
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In reply to tequila4kapp • 12:01p, 10/19/23
tequila4kapp said:
Slava Palestini said:


LOL at anyone who thinks Hamas bombed that hospital
I am very open minded to the possibility that Israel did it. But I am also trying to make evidence based conclusions.

I might respond with an LOL at anyone who ignores that video shows no crater; photographic evidence the hospital is still standing; video showing rockets originating west of and flying over the hospital; video appearing to show one of those rockets malfunctioning; audio recordings of two people speaking in Arabic saying the shrapnel matches their stuff, not Israel; video showing an impact at the hospital including a large volume of immediate fire; etc.

Basically, the evidence in opposition appears to be that Israel warned the hospital previously, Israel is bad and well, Israel is bad.

Maybe this changes in the future as the linked Al Jazeera Op-Ed predicts but for now this is an easy and obvious call.

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Cal88
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In reply to bearister • 12:03p, 10/19/23
bearister said:
" I took that out as it didn't add much info."
If you are referring to his ethnicity….


Hehe, from my perspective it's also a bonus as the Irish tend to be more independently-minded than their neighbors across the Irish Sea, it's just that his post that I used did not have much support:


It would have needed more context, like that provided at the bottom here:
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tequila4kapp
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In reply to Cal88 • 12:23p, 10/19/23
Interesting info. Thanks for sharing. Let's explore.

The video you share at the bottom of the screen is not representative. The allegation is that a faulty rocket landed prematurely. Fuel was still prominent because of the premature touch down. See big huge fireball. That is not present in the Hamas rocket example you shared.

I'm not a weapons expert. I googled the weapon type listed in your thread and found these examples. Maybe they are also incorrect. I don't know but they were the first / best examples I could find. Again, note the lack of fire.
https://www.military.com/video/operations-and-strategy/air-strikes/close-up-view-of-2000lb-jdam-strike/3744533948001

https://www.military.com/video/fire-and-bombing-systems/precision-bombing/the-guided-mk-84-2000lb-bomb/983481702001

Concave car roofs…curious factoid. Maybe? What do car roofs do under intense heat / fire? TBD
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tequila4kapp
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In reply to Cal88 • 12:31p, 10/19/23
Cal88 said:
tequila4kapp said:


Good. It has already been going on 2 weeks since Israel was invaded. Further delay only helps Hamas. It gives them time to prepare to fight, time to work the PR machine, and they'll steal the aid. Want to help the Palestinians? How about a UN resolution forcing Hamas to allow them to move freely within Gaza for safety as Israel announces where it will attack (pause for a second. Israel has to announce where it will operate…in a war). Or how about a resolution forcing Egypt to let them cross the border and leave Gaza, a war zone. The Palestinians are pawns used by the Arab world to manipulate the victims of an invasion and victim of terrorism.

A creative solution that allows Palestinians to escape Gaza to the north wouldn't be the worst thing either, though undoubtedly the Arab world would decry it and Hamas would probably use force to stop it, too.

People in Gaza, an open-air prison camp currently under attack, are mostly refugees and their descendants who have been ethnically cleansed from Palestine in 1948 by the Israelis. If they go to Egypt, they won't be able to return to Palestine/Gaza (as Israel controls entry points), that has been the pattern since 1948.
I understand the historical context. But let's be real, there is simply ZERO probability Palestinian civilians would not be allowed to return to Gaza. Zero.

I realize Gazans would have to believe that, and maybe they don't. But note, so far it isn't Gazans saying they don't want to leave it is Hamas refusing to allow it (human shields) and Arab nations refusing to admit them as refugees for political reasons.
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LunchTime
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In reply to dimitrig • 1:01p, 10/19/23
dimitrig said:

I am not sure what Hamas hoped to accomplish.

They cannot defeat Israel militarily and now they have given Israel a reason to fight them openly while turning international opinion against them. It seems like a real stupid move.

Someone help me understand it. I have been away from news all day. Was an explanation ever provided?




I think the last couple days have made it clear:

Attack Israel and you get about a week of support for an Israeli response. After that, it is 100% of the worlds media crying about the response and regurgitating anti-Israeli nonsense.

This is a win for Hamas. The global media's unconscionable coverage of the hospital just gave such an enormous anti-semetic boost to the cause that we have US Congress people still claiming it was bombed by Israel.

And TBH, without Biden's support on this, this "war" would have been over last week after a "proportional" response.
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LunchTime
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In reply to Cal88 • 1:03p, 10/19/23
Cal88 said:
bearister said:
" I took that out as it didn't add much info."
If you are referring to his ethnicity….


Hehe, from my perspective it's also a bonus as the Irish tend to be more independently-minded than their neighbors across the Irish Sea, it's just that his post that I used did not have much support:


It would have needed more context, like that provided at the bottom here:
What is the context?
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LunchTime
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In reply to dimitrig • 1:10p, 10/19/23
dimitrig said:
Cal88 said:


*** is wrong with this country?

US Ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield explained her country's veto in the Council chamber saying "this resolution did not mention Israel's right of self-defence."

"Israel has the inherent sight of self-defence as reflected in Article 51 of the UN Charter," she added, noting that the right was reaffirmed by the Council in previous resolutions on terrorist attacks, "this resolution should have done the same."
Would you have voted against D-Day because violence is not the answer?
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LunchTime
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In reply to tequila4kapp • 1:12p, 10/19/23
tequila4kapp said:
So you don't believe the evidence, including audio recordings of terrorists saying it was them. You've made up your mind. Got it.

For others, video from CNN. Notice the type and size of the explosion seems (to me, at least) obviously different than aerial strikes from Israel. Also note the volume of immediate fire. That seems consistent with a misfired rocket that lands early and hasn't expended its fuel, almost like a plane crash.

https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-news-hamas-war-10-18-23/h_b4a7b1ab8f030dd4906e5d1250f1f64b

Edit to include better video for showing the orientation of the Hamas rockets toward the hospital
Cal88 knows to believe what he is told, not what he sees.
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sycasey
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In reply to LunchTime • 1:25p, 10/19/23
LunchTime said:
dimitrig said:
Cal88 said:


*** is wrong with this country?

US Ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield explained her country's veto in the Council chamber saying "this resolution did not mention Israel's right of self-defence."

"Israel has the inherent sight of self-defence as reflected in Article 51 of the UN Charter," she added, noting that the right was reaffirmed by the Council in previous resolutions on terrorist attacks, "this resolution should have done the same."
Would you have voted against D-Day because violence is not the answer?
The Axis had already demonstrated a LITTLE BIT more power and ability to conquer than the current Palestinian "state."
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Big C
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In reply to MinotStateBeav • 1:35p, 10/19/23
MinotStateBeav said:


Probably the most mature response to the Israel response, especially from a US perspective.

tl;dw version: He suggests identifying and killing the top 100 people in Hamas most responsible for the attack.

I don't know about that specifically (maybe it's 500, I dunno), but something more surgical of that nature is probably more in Israel and the world's best interests.

If there is a ground invasion, people from around the world are going to be watching for however many weeks it takes, while images from the terrorist attacks begin to fade in the distance. Not a good look for Israel.
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Cal88
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In reply to LunchTime • 1:50p, 10/19/23
LunchTime said:
Cal88 said:


Hehe, from my perspective it's also a bonus as the Irish tend to be more independently-minded than their neighbors across the Irish Sea, it's just that his post that I used did not have much support:


It would have needed more context, like that provided at the bottom here:
What is the context?

The context is here, the Palestinians don't have the type of rocket that matches the forensic evidence. They have rudimentary rockets with small payloads, not themobaric JDAMs with proximity fuse, which explode before hitting the ground (maximzing concussive damage in the area) and thus don't leave a crater on the ground. A plain rocket, even one with a small payload like the Palestinians have, would have created a crater on its impact.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/world/absence-of-craters-in-gaza-hospital-attack-suggests-use-of-proximity-fuse-ammunition-specialist/3025513

As well the pattern of compressed car roofs can only be the result of a blast from above. If it was a regular rocket, the blast and shock wave would be applied from the ground laterally to the sides of the car. A JDAM with air burst/proximity fuse (as shown in the tweet at the very bottom of this post) is also consistent with both the fireball footage and the sound recorded from that explosion.

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tequila4kapp
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In reply to Big C • 1:56p, 10/19/23
Big C said:
MinotStateBeav said:


Probably the most mature response to the Israel response, especially from a US perspective.

tl;dw version: He suggests identifying and killing the top 100 people in Hamas most responsible for the attack.

I don't know about that specifically (maybe it's 500, I dunno), but something more surgical of that nature is probably more in Israel and the world's best interests.

If there is a ground invasion, people from around the world are going to be watching for however many weeks it takes, while images from the terrorist attacks begin to fade in the distance. Not a good look for Israel.
Sounds great, in theory. But where are those top 100-500 responsible people? Hiding in and among the Palestinians civilians, or somewhere in the cave structure that is intertwined with civilian infrastructure. It is a fallacy to think there's some clean version of war. Best case scenario for the Palestinian civilians would be some kind of massive undertaking where people are vetted as non-Hamas and allowed to move to a safe zone (eg, Egypt or inside Israel north of Gaza), the only people remaining are Hamas and the IDF goes at it. But even that is probable pie in the sky.
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Big C
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In reply to tequila4kapp • 2:19p, 10/19/23
tequila4kapp said:
Big C said:
MinotStateBeav said:


Probably the most mature response to the Israel response, especially from a US perspective.

tl;dw version: He suggests identifying and killing the top 100 people in Hamas most responsible for the attack.

I don't know about that specifically (maybe it's 500, I dunno), but something more surgical of that nature is probably more in Israel and the world's best interests.

If there is a ground invasion, people from around the world are going to be watching for however many weeks it takes, while images from the terrorist attacks begin to fade in the distance. Not a good look for Israel.
Sounds great, in theory. But where are those top 100-500 responsible people? Hiding in and among the Palestinians civilians, or somewhere in the cave structure that is intertwined with civilian infrastructure. It is a fallacy to think there's some clean version of war. Best case scenario for the Palestinian civilians would be some kind of massive undertaking where people are vetted as non-Hamas and allowed to move to a safe zone (eg, Egypt or inside Israel north of Gaza), the only people remaining are Hamas and the IDF goes at it. But even that is probable pie in the sky.

I would start by looking up Hamas in the Gaza Yellow Pages. Or, okay, this is the 21st century, go on the Hamas website and click on "who we are".

Seriously, no it wouldn't be easy, but at least it's a goal that people around the world would accept and maybe even get behind. How did we find Bin Laden? The ground assault isn't going to help Israel's public perception too much... and they have enough enemies as it is. Don't get me wrong, I am for the existence of state of Israel, which I guess classifies me as a Zionist.
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tequila4kapp
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In reply to Big C • 2:43p, 10/19/23
OBL had the common decency to hide in remote mountain locations for a good long while, until he moved a few blocks away from Pakistan's West Point. It might be worth remembering that people made these same complaints about us sending in 2 helicopters worth of special ops guys to take him out from a somewhat isolated compound, and about the other people in the compound being killed.
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KPG
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In reply to tequila4kapp • 2:45p, 10/19/23
tequila4kapp said:
Cal88 said:
tequila4kapp said:


Good. It has already been going on 2 weeks since Israel was invaded. Further delay only helps Hamas. It gives them time to prepare to fight, time to work the PR machine, and they'll steal the aid. Want to help the Palestinians? How about a UN resolution forcing Hamas to allow them to move freely within Gaza for safety as Israel announces where it will attack (pause for a second. Israel has to announce where it will operate…in a war). Or how about a resolution forcing Egypt to let them cross the border and leave Gaza, a war zone. The Palestinians are pawns used by the Arab world to manipulate the victims of an invasion and victim of terrorism.

A creative solution that allows Palestinians to escape Gaza to the north wouldn't be the worst thing either, though undoubtedly the Arab world would decry it and Hamas would probably use force to stop it, too.

People in Gaza, an open-air prison camp currently under attack, are mostly refugees and their descendants who have been ethnically cleansed from Palestine in 1948 by the Israelis. If they go to Egypt, they won't be able to return to Palestine/Gaza (as Israel controls entry points), that has been the pattern since 1948.
I understand the historical context. But let's be real, there is simply ZERO probability Palestinian civilians would not be allowed to return to Gaza. Zero.

I realize Gazans would have to believe that, and maybe they don't. But note, so far it isn't Gazans saying they don't want to leave it is Hamas refusing to allow it (human shields) and Arab nations refusing to admit them as refugees for political reasons.
That's weird, why wouldn't Gazans believe that if they left, they'd be allowed to return?

?w=770&resize=770%2C770

"But as soon as the guns fell silent in 1967, Israel, in direct contravention of international law, began building illegal settlements for its citizens on land it does not own.

Just one year after the 1967 war, there were six Israeli settlements built in the Syrian Golan Heights. By 1973, Israel had established 17 settlements in the West Bank and seven in the Gaza Strip. By 1977, some 11,000 Israelis had been living in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights and the Sinai Peninsula."


"From 2012 to 2022, the population of Israeli settlers in the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, had grown from 520,000 to over 700,000. These settlers lived illegally in 279 Israeli settlements across the occupied West Bank, including 14 settlements in the occupied East Jerusalem, with a total population of more than 229,000 people. At least 147 of these settlements were outposts, illegal even under Israeli domestic law.

The report documented a correlation between the expansion of outposts and settler attacks against Palestinians. During the past decade, the United Nations had verified 3,372 violent incidents by settlers, injuring 1,222 Palestinians. Last year, settler violence reached the highest levels ever recorded by the United Nations. Israel had failed to investigate and prosecute crimes against Palestinians committed by settlers and Israeli forces.
Mr. Volkmann said the current Israeli plan to double the settler population on the Syrian Golan by 2027, and increase the number of Israeli settlements on the occupied Syrian Golan from 34 to 36 was unprecedented. The seizure of lands for Israeli settlements, military zones, nature reserves and commercial activities limited the Syrian's population's access to land and water, in violation of their rights to adequate housing, food and health."

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/human-rights-council-hears-that-700000-israeli-settlers-are-living-illegally-in-the-occupied-west-bank-meeting-summary-excerpts/#:~:text=These%20settlers%20lived%20illegally%20in,even%20under%20Israeli%20domestic%20law.

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going4roses
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2:48p, 10/19/23
Tell someone you love them and try to have a good day
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tequila4kapp
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In reply to Cal88 • 3:03p, 10/19/23
Cal88 said:
LunchTime said:
Cal88 said:


Hehe, from my perspective it's also a bonus as the Irish tend to be more independently-minded than their neighbors across the Irish Sea, it's just that his post that I used did not have much support:


It would have needed more context, like that provided at the bottom here:
What is the context?

The context is here, the Palestinians don't have the type of rocket that matches the forensic evidence. They have rudimentary rockets with small payloads, not themobaric JDAMs with proximity fuse, which explode before hitting the ground (maximzing concussive damage in the area) and thus don't leave a crater on the ground. A plain rocket, even one with a small payload like the Palestinians have, would have created a crater on its impact.
More cars with concave roofs…from the music festival on 10/7 following Hamas attacks. Maybe the premise about that damage only coming from Israeli hyperbolic bombs is erroneous.
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