The Non-Yogi Israel-Palestine war thread

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KPG
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BearGoggles, how do you see this conflict playing out? I laid out my grim vision, I would love to hear your perspective.

Let's say Israel destroys Hamas by whatever means necessary. Do you think Israel is then safe and will enjoy safety? You may infer a negative moral connotation when I use words like colonial settler, but it's just factual language, to pretend otherwise may make us feel better, but it shrouds the realities and options available to Israel, IMO at least.

I'm not "blaming" anyone for anything. It's not like my post is going to alter Israeli policy or that we're in a morality trial. I have a few good family friends that live in Israel and work daily to promote peace, I'm not rooting for their demise here whatsoever. I think there are things Israel can do differently to promote peace, you seem more skeptical. That's ok. So if Israel's behavior is irrelevant to peace in your opinion, and they are in constant existential threat regardless of if Netanyahu is in charge with a far right wing government, and regardless of settler policy, and regardless of military proportional response (which is a fair thing, we don't need to keep arguing those things!) how do you propose they proceed assuming Hamas is destroyed / how do you see their future unfolding?
bearister
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Dave Chappelle criticizes Israel's bombing and triggers show walkout



https://mol.im/a/12657917
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bearister
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Counter response to this article?


'The most successful land-grab strategy since 1967' as settlers push Bedouins off West Bank territory


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/21/the-most-successful-land-grab-strategy-since-1967-as-settlers-push-bedouins-off-west-bank-territory?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
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BearGoggles
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KPG said:

BearGoggles, how do you see this conflict playing out? I laid out my grim vision, I would love to hear your perspective.

Let's say Israel destroys Hamas by whatever means necessary. Do you think Israel is then safe and will enjoy safety? You may infer a negative moral connotation when I use words like colonial settler, but it's just factual language, to pretend otherwise may make us feel better, but it shrouds the realities and options available to Israel, IMO at least.

I'm not "blaming" anyone for anything. It's not like my post is going to alter Israeli policy or that we're in a morality trial. I have a few good family friends that live in Israel and work daily to promote peace, I'm not rooting for their demise here whatsoever. I think there are things Israel can do differently to promote peace, you seem more skeptical. That's ok. So if Israel's behavior is irrelevant to peace in your opinion, and they are in constant existential threat regardless of if Netanyahu is in charge with a far right wing government, and regardless of settler policy, and regardless of military proportional response (which is a fair thing, we don't need to keep arguing those things!) how do you propose they proceed assuming Hamas is destroyed / how do you see their future unfolding?
Colonial settler, as applied to Israel, is far from "factual language." The fact that you see it as factual is part of the problem, as it completely dismisses any nuance. The Israelis, particularly the Jewish Israelis, don't view themselves a colonialists so what you (and I) think is largely irrelevant. And use of that term, in the current political context carries with it a lot of implications, not the least of which is the assertion by the "anti-colonialists" that groups like Hamas are somehow justified in their terrorism - or that the Israelis, as colonialists, are not really ever real victims.

To answer your question, I don't pretend to know how this will play out. What I do know is that there will NEVER be peace as long as Hamas is in control of Gaza or has any real power there. And by power, I mean the ability to wage war/terrorism. Israel has likely concluded - rightly in my view - that co-existing with Hamas is no longer an option and that whatever comes next will be better (or at least more aligned with Israel's security concerns)

So the first step must be the removal of Hamas - whatever that cost. That would include the demilitarization of all groups that similarly espouse the destruction of Israel.

The second step - probably the harder one - is finding an interim government for Gaza that is not the UN and not Israel. Israel should turn over control as soon as possible and help to resettle any civilians who were displaced by the war. Unfortunately, the PA/Fatah is probably not an option, as they are corrupt and not particularly popular. Ideally, it would be a Arab lead coalition that would takeove - Egypt would be key and should be motivated to take a leading roler. The last resort would be the UN with tight Israeli/US controls over weapons and money.

The US, EU, Arab countries, and Israel needs to commit massive aid to rebuilding Gaza (and the West Bank too). The aid needs to be tightly controlled - probably by Israel to a significant extent - to ensure it is not used for weapons or stolen by corrupt politicians. No more digging up water pipes to make missiles.

The larger goal is to offer hope and real progress to the Palestinians who are willing to co-exist with Israel and to deny any power to those who are not.

I don't expect Gazan/Palestinian society to change overnight. The US/Allies occupied Japan and Germany for 7 years with the Marshall plan being a huge part of the transformation of those countries. Given how Palestinian institutions - particularly their schools - have adopted religious based Jew hating as part of their curriculum/platforms, it could take longer. Or it may never happen. No guarantees on that as we learned in Iraq and Afghanistan. The difference is that unlike Iraq and Afghanistan - which the US can now mostly ignore - Israel cannot compromise its security concerns.

But the key will be that that daily life of the Gazans can improve if there are adequate security measures/protections for Israel. And then those security restrictions can go away, over time, once trust is established.

At the same time, pressure should be put on Israel to stop it settler policy and eventually loosen security controls. Though they had been doing the latter with respect to Gaza and that just backfired (reportedly some of the guest workers supported the 10/7 attacks). Israel will have to change - and that also will take time. But unlike Gaza, there is already a vocal peace party contingent in Israel and, contrary to your views, a significant portion (if not the majority) of Israeli's don't have expansionist intentions for the West Bank - and certainly not Gaza. Unfortunately, the pro-settlement group has disproportionate political power - maybe the left should partner with Netanyahu so they don't?

The poll results from last month are pretty interesting in that regard (61.2% support a settlement freeze in exchange for peace with Saudi)

https://geneva-accord.org/media/gi-in-haaretz-israeli-public-opinion-poll-2023/

Final point is that countries like Quatar needs to stop supporting terror groups in Israel and, obviously, Iran needs to be addressed in terms of its broader actions.
going4roses
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This guy lol
no wonder he lost the mayoral race

Tell someone you love them and try to have a good day
10% For The Big Guy
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bearister said:

Dave Chappelle criticizes Israel's bombing and triggers show walkout



https://mol.im/a/12657917
LOL at the trash websites you post links from.
10% For The Big Guy
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BearGoggles said:

KPG said:

Violence, intimidation, and more blatantly illegal land grabs continue in the West Bank. Even if you're the biggest fan of Israel, stuff like this is just absolutely shooting itself in the foot, you can't blame Hamas for this one. The only long-term shot Israel has at viability is normalized relations with neighbors. It simply can't keep operating in such a belligerent manner and have any leg to stand on for peaceful negotiations, and I truly don't think Israel can just be in a perpetual state of low-simmering conflicts that boil over into wars every few years for the next few hundreds of years. For Israel to exist in anything remotely resembling a lasting peace, it must stop these settlements, immediately.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/21/the-most-successful-land-grab-strategy-since-1967-as-settlers-push-bedouins-off-west-bank-territory?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
Israeli Settlement policy is bad. If Israel stopped the settlements, withdrew all existing settlements (or abandoned them to Palestinian control), and agreed to 1967 borders, would Hamas accept that?

No - they would not. And that is the fallacy of your position and consistent blaming of "colonialist" Israel. It is Israel's existence in ANY form and the presence of Jews that Hamas and much of the overall Palestinian people finds objectionable.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/10/hamas-is-the-symptom-not-the-disease/

From the river to the sea is not a call for two states, or even one state living in peace. In every Arab state in the middle east, Jews have been the victim of "ethnic cleansing" - and Christians too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world#Table_of_Jewish_population_since_1948

And it bears mentioning, Israel did remove all settlements from Gaza (and before that Sinai). Your focus on settlements is largely a red herring. The problem isn't the settlements. The problem is that Hamas and many others won't accept the existence of Israel under any circumstances. Yet you think settlements are the problem.
Genocide Joe trending on Twitter. Good. Screw him.
https://i.ibb.co/BGq8nvQ/Genocide-Joe.jpg
Eastern Oregon Bear
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10% For The Big Guy said:

bearister said:

Dave Chappelle criticizes Israel's bombing and triggers show walkout



https://mol.im/a/12657917
LOL at the trash websites you post links from.
It would be interesting to compare the websites Bearister posts links from and the websites you post links from.

Oh wait... this is another banned account you've resurrected. No pesky history there for you to have to defend.
Cal88
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Israel-Gaza war in maps and charts

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/10/9/israel-hamas-war-in-maps-and-charts-live-tracker
bearister
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10% For The Big Guy said:

bearister said:

Dave Chappelle criticizes Israel's bombing and triggers show walkout



https://mol.im/a/12657917
LOL at the trash websites you post links from.


I figured a report of what happened at an iconic stand up's show would be more entertaining coming from a British tab than a Libertarian think tank.

All anyone has to do is bother to look up and read the bio of anyone who wrote a tweet or article you cite supporting one of your maladjusted rants to discover that they are usually hacks with a disqualifying bias and agenda.

You are a classic example of the adage that the guy who thinks he is the smartest one in the room is never even close.

*The Daily Mail is a guilty pleasure that I highly recommend everyone engage in once a day. The Entertainment section satisfies the People Magazine/National Enquirer fix and at least good photojournalists sell their photos for display in the alleged News section whenever there is a catastrophic event.
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Cal88
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Cal88
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2min primer by Mearsheimer on Israel:

wifeisafurd
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bearister said:

10% For The Big Guy said:

bearister said:

Dave Chappelle criticizes Israel's bombing and triggers show walkout



https://mol.im/a/12657917
LOL at the trash websites you post links from.


I figured a report of what happened at an iconic stand up's show would be more entertaining coming from a British tab than a Libertarian think tank.

All anyone has to do is bother to look up and read the bio of anyone who wrote a tweet or article you cite supporting one of your maladjusted rants to discover that they are usually hacks with a disqualifying bias and agenda.

You are a classic example of the adage that the guy who thinks he is the smartest one in the room is never even close.

*The Daily Mail is a guilty pleasure that I highly recommend everyone engage in once a day. The Entertainment section satisfies the People Magazine/National Enquirer fix and at least good photojournalists sell their photos for display in the alleged News section whenever there is a catastrophic event.
Have you guys given any thought to original thought rather than retweeting what some nimrod in social media has a to say?
bearister
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Beats quoting your weak sauce sh@it.

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wifeisafurd
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bearister said:

Beats quoting your weak sauce sh@it.


The BIGGEST EGO on Tiktok - YouTubeYouTubehttps://www.youtube.com watch

For those enjoying Barrister last Breaking Bad repost, let's repost another of his posts which seems appropriate to this thread:

When Georgia Howled: Sherman on the March - YouTubeYouTubehttps://www.youtube.com watch

Kill them all and let God sort it out.

Some other quotes from Sherman to dwell upon:

This war differs from other wars, in this particular. We are not fighting armies but a hostile people, and must make old and young, rich and poor, feel the hard hand of war.


If the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war, and not popularity seeking.

War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over.

See how easy it is to just repost something from social media?

Here is some weak sauce from HG Wells:
If we don't end war, war will end us.





BearGoggles
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bearister said:

10% For The Big Guy said:

bearister said:

Dave Chappelle criticizes Israel's bombing and triggers show walkout



https://mol.im/a/12657917
LOL at the trash websites you post links from.


I figured a report of what happened at an iconic stand up's show would be more entertaining coming from a British tab than a Libertarian think tank.

All anyone has to do is bother to look up and read the bio of anyone who wrote a tweet or article you cite supporting one of your maladjusted rants to discover that they are usually hacks with a disqualifying bias and agenda.

You are a classic example of the adage that the guy who thinks he is the smartest one in the room is never even close.

*The Daily Mail is a guilty pleasure that I highly recommend everyone engage in once a day. The Entertainment section satisfies the People Magazine/National Enquirer fix and at least good photojournalists sell their photos for display in the alleged News section whenever there is a catastrophic event.

I'll share a post from a libertarian think tank.




Article can be found here: https://reason.com/volokh/2023/10/22/understanding-pro-hamas-sentiment-on-the-far-left/
10% For The Big Guy
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bearister said:

10% For The Big Guy said:

bearister said:

Dave Chappelle criticizes Israel's bombing and triggers show walkout



https://mol.im/a/12657917
LOL at the trash websites you post links from.


I figured a report of what happened at an iconic stand up's show would be more entertaining coming from a British tab than a Libertarian think tank.

All anyone has to do is bother to look up and read the bio of anyone who wrote a tweet or article you cite supporting one of your maladjusted rants to discover that they are usually hacks with a disqualifying bias and agenda.

You are a classic example of the adage that the guy who thinks he is the smartest one in the room is never even close.

*The Daily Mail is a guilty pleasure that I highly recommend everyone engage in once a day. The Entertainment section satisfies the People Magazine/National Enquirer fix and at least good photojournalists sell their photos for display in the alleged News section whenever there is a catastrophic event.

10% For The Big Guy
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BearGoggles said:

bearister said:

10% For The Big Guy said:

bearister said:

Dave Chappelle criticizes Israel's bombing and triggers show walkout



https://mol.im/a/12657917
LOL at the trash websites you post links from.


I figured a report of what happened at an iconic stand up's show would be more entertaining coming from a British tab than a Libertarian think tank.

All anyone has to do is bother to look up and read the bio of anyone who wrote a tweet or article you cite supporting one of your maladjusted rants to discover that they are usually hacks with a disqualifying bias and agenda.

You are a classic example of the adage that the guy who thinks he is the smartest one in the room is never even close.

*The Daily Mail is a guilty pleasure that I highly recommend everyone engage in once a day. The Entertainment section satisfies the People Magazine/National Enquirer fix and at least good photojournalists sell their photos for display in the alleged News section whenever there is a catastrophic event.

I'll share a post from a libertarian think tank.




Article can be found here: https://reason.com/volokh/2023/10/22/understanding-pro-hamas-sentiment-on-the-far-left/

Eastern Oregon Bear
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10% For The Big Guy said:

BearGoggles said:

bearister said:

10% For The Big Guy said:

bearister said:

Dave Chappelle criticizes Israel's bombing and triggers show walkout



https://mol.im/a/12657917
LOL at the trash websites you post links from.


I figured a report of what happened at an iconic stand up's show would be more entertaining coming from a British tab than a Libertarian think tank.

All anyone has to do is bother to look up and read the bio of anyone who wrote a tweet or article you cite supporting one of your maladjusted rants to discover that they are usually hacks with a disqualifying bias and agenda.

You are a classic example of the adage that the guy who thinks he is the smartest one in the room is never even close.

*The Daily Mail is a guilty pleasure that I highly recommend everyone engage in once a day. The Entertainment section satisfies the People Magazine/National Enquirer fix and at least good photojournalists sell their photos for display in the alleged News section whenever there is a catastrophic event.

I'll share a post from a libertarian think tank.




Article can be found here: https://reason.com/volokh/2023/10/22/understanding-pro-hamas-sentiment-on-the-far-left/


How many were Holocaust survivors and how many were descendants? There aren't many survivors left under 85 or 90.
concordtom
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The ad itself:

concordtom
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Joint statement by leaders of the United States, Canada, France, Germany, Italy and Britain

Added wording to protect civilians.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/10/22/joint-statement-on-israel-2/


" The leaders reiterated their support for Israel and its right to defend itself against terrorism and called for adherence to international humanitarian law, including the protection of civilians."
tequila4kapp
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In order to counter what it calls a version of Holocaust denial, the IDF made available unedited video to reporters. One reporters account:

https://www.breitbart.com/middle-east/2023/10/23/warning-graphic-content-horror-idf-screens-raw-footage-of-hamas-terror-attack-for-media/

GLILOT BASE, Israel I wanted it to stop at 17 minutes in. But I had to watch. We had to bear witness.

This is what we saw.

A father and two sons, in their underwear, having just woken up, are trying to flee from their home.

The father picks up one boy and all three run to a shelter in the back yard.

A terrorist peers over the fence and lobs a grenade into the shelter. It bounces off the back wall and explodes.

The father's body falls forward. A boy appears, covered in his father's blood, looking at his father.

For a moment, you think the terrorists will shoot him.

Instead, the armed terrorists bring the boys inside, into the home.

One boy sits on a chair, the other on a couch, both still in their underwear, both covered in trickles of blood, theirs and their father's. They wail: "Daddy! Daddy!" The boy on the couch says, "Itay, I think they are going to kill us."

A terrorist with a Palestinian flag patch on his flak jacket opens the fridge and asks if they want water "mayim," in Hebrew. The one on the couch replies, in English, that he wants his mother not "mayim," but "mommy." He repeats: "Mommy. Mommy."

Then comes the worst moment of all.

We see the boy on the couch, now doubled over on the rug. "Why am I alive?" he wails.

He then looks at the brother in the chair. There is a red, black space where his eye used to be. He asks if his brother can see out of that eye. He says that he cannot. The other brother asks again. Are you joking? He repeats that he cannot see.

Somehow, the boys escape together, out the back door.

Later, the footage shows the mother coming to the home with local security guards. She sees her husband's body and her legs give way. She screams, and the security guards place a hand on her mouth and try to drag her away. The attack is still going on, and they are still at risk of being killed.

That was the worst, for me the footage of that event compiled from multiple surveillance cameras in a town that the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) asked us not to reveal, since the relatives of the dead have not yet seen the footage.

On Monday, the IDF invited journalists onto a military base to view 43 minutes of raw footage of the attack by the Palestinian Hamas terrorist group on October 17 an attack that claimed over 1,400 lives and saw over 4,000 people wounded, and more than 200 taken prisoner.

The footage was compiled from both victims and perpetrators, from GoPro cameras, dashboard cameras, social media, surveillance cameras, and even audio recording apps on mobile phones. It is just a small part of what the IDF still possesses.

We were not allowed to bring cell phones, cameras, or laptops into the room, because the IDF does not want the public to see the footage before the families of the victims have seen it if it is ever seen again at all. We were only allowed notepads and pens.

Throughout the screening, there were gasps, and cries in the audience. I heard some journalists whisper: "Make it stop."

Some of the footage had already appeared in snippets of news coverage, or on social media, during the attack on October 7, and in the hours that followed. But most had never been screened publicly before, or in full context.

We saw we still see, in our memories civilian drivers being murdered in their cars. We saw terrorists setting fires to homes. We saw the aftermath burned bodies; corpses of people who had been bound and gagged; bodies of murdered children and babies; a decapitated soldier.

We see and hear the terrified screams of female IDF soldiers who had taken shelter against the attack. Some are murdered underneath a table as they scream the incoherent, terrified scream of a living human being facing violent death, helplessly.

Again and again, we see Hamas terrorists pumping bullets into people who are already dead just to make sure.

Some of the terrorists are visibly and audibly nervous in the footage. But they are not in a combat situation: they are coming for civilians.

They are hunting Jews, trying to find them in their hiding places, reveling in the piles of bodies, mutilating corpses, looting the victims.

The film also containes an audio sequence, recorded on the phone of one of the victims, used by a terrorist to call his parents back home in Gaza to boast that he had killed 10 Jews. His father replies: "Allahu akbar!" (God is great!).

But then the realization sets in that his son is probably not coming back that he intends to become a martyr, and to die fighting, so that he can kill as many Jews as possible. The mother comes to the phone and pleads with him to come back.

She is not, after all that murder, proud of him.

We see scenes of the carnage at the music festival terrorists shooting into the closed doors of portable toilets, murdering those within. We see victims hiding in a dumpster; we see hostages, bloodied, in agony, being loaded onto trucks as their captors laugh.

There is no moment of redemption in the footage. We do not see the end, when the good guys arrive and save the victims. The only comfort is the knowledge that the GoPro footage, at least, was retrieved from the terrorists after they were killed or captured.

After the video was done, we were allowed to go outside to retrieve our equipment. I needed to start writing as soon as I did so.

But first, I had to sit down. I leaned against a wall and cried. I kept thinking about those little boys and the nightmare they endured.

IDF Spokesman Admiral Daniel Hagari said that the military had hesitated before sharing the footage. But he said the IDF ultimately decided to do so because "we want to understand, ourselves, what we are fighting for." He spoke about the duty to create a "collective memory," noting that Israel was doing so even while it was still fighting the enemy that had attacked it.

Hagari also said that the attacks had nothing to do with Islam. But it was impossible to ignore the shouts of "Allahu Akbar!" that accompanied so much of the killing, and that greeted the dead bodies and the bloodied captives when they arrived in Gaza.

Whatever this attack had to do with Islam is something that Islam has to deal with. For now, Israel has a war to fight and win.

And this is why: a terrible crime, a crime against humanity, demands justice.
concordtom
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Thx for posting.
The report was good to do. But I disagree with the conclusion in the last two sentences.

Israel does NOT need to be obliterating Gaza. Vengeance is not going to work out well for them to the long run.

I heard the death toll in Gaza is now 4000, with hundreds of children? That compares to 1200 killed in the initial raid into Israel?

I'm sure Gazans will now have their own appalling accounts of death and destruction to pass around and incite more vengeance in return.

So, one asks of war and retribution… When Does It End?
oski003
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concordtom said:

Thx for posting.
The report was good to do. But I disagree with the conclusion in the last two sentences.

Israel does NOT need to be obliterating Gaza. Vengeance is not going to work out well for them to the long run.

I heard the death toll in Gaza is now 4000, with hundreds of children? That compares to 1200 killed in the initial raid into Israel?

I'm sure Gazans will now have their own appalling accounts of death and destruction to pass around and incite more vengeance in return.

So, one asks of war and retribution… When Does It End?


If Hamas surrenders, zero children will die.
Unit2Sucks
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concordtom said:

Thx for posting.
The report was good to do. But I disagree with the conclusion in the last two sentences.

Israel does NOT need to be obliterating Gaza. Vengeance is not going to work out well for them to the long run.

I heard the death toll in Gaza is now 4000, with hundreds of children? That compares to 1200 killed in the initial raid into Israel?

I'm sure Gazans will now have their own appalling accounts of death and destruction to pass around and incite more vengeance in return.

So, one asks of war and retribution… When Does It End?
Does the 4,000 include the 500 fake deaths in the hospital that wasn't destroyed?

I trust these numbers about as well as any of Putin88's made up Russian claims from the Ukraine war.

I'm not defending any Israeli response which would target civilians but people should understand that there is a massive amount of misinformation right now.

What we do know is that Hamas is a terrorist organization bent on the destruction of Israel, that it's been ruling Gaza for almost 20 years (basically from the minute Israel went hands off), that Hamas has been hijacking all humanitarian aid to Gaza in order to prepare for war and that no country in Israel's position would permit Hamas to remain in power.

We can quibble about how surgical the response needs to be (I certainly have) but the status quo is obviously untenable (for both Israel and the palestinian subjects of Hamas terrorism).
concordtom
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oski003 said:

concordtom said:

Thx for posting.
The report was good to do. But I disagree with the conclusion in the last two sentences.

Israel does NOT need to be obliterating Gaza. Vengeance is not going to work out well for them to the long run.

I heard the death toll in Gaza is now 4000, with hundreds of children? That compares to 1200 killed in the initial raid into Israel?

I'm sure Gazans will now have their own appalling accounts of death and destruction to pass around and incite more vengeance in return.

So, one asks of war and retribution… When Does It End?


If Hamas surrenders, zero children will die.


If Hitler had surrendered….
Come on now. Don't make the population pay for criminal leaders.

What am I supposed to do, kill Trump so my children don't have to die when he starts ww3?
oski003
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concordtom said:

oski003 said:

concordtom said:

Thx for posting.
The report was good to do. But I disagree with the conclusion in the last two sentences.

Israel does NOT need to be obliterating Gaza. Vengeance is not going to work out well for them to the long run.

I heard the death toll in Gaza is now 4000, with hundreds of children? That compares to 1200 killed in the initial raid into Israel?

I'm sure Gazans will now have their own appalling accounts of death and destruction to pass around and incite more vengeance in return.

So, one asks of war and retribution… When Does It End?


If Hamas surrenders, zero children will die.


If Hitler had surrendered….
Come on now. Don't make the population pay for criminal leaders.

What am I supposed to do, kill Trump so my children don't have to die when he starts ww3?


No, you don't have to kill Trump so your children don't have to die when he starts ww3. You should, however, accept the reality that we are now closer to ww3 under Biden than we were any day of Trump's presidency.
bearister
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Biden officials on edge amid fears of war widening in Middle East


https://www.axios.com/2023/10/23/biden-israel-gaza-middle-east-war-threat
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Send my credentials to the House of Detention
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concordtom
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Unit2Sucks said:

concordtom said:

Thx for posting.
The report was good to do. But I disagree with the conclusion in the last two sentences.

Israel does NOT need to be obliterating Gaza. Vengeance is not going to work out well for them to the long run.

I heard the death toll in Gaza is now 4000, with hundreds of children? That compares to 1200 killed in the initial raid into Israel?

I'm sure Gazans will now have their own appalling accounts of death and destruction to pass around and incite more vengeance in return.

So, one asks of war and retribution… When Does It End?
Does the 4,000 include the 500 fake deaths in the hospital that wasn't destroyed?

I trust these numbers about as well as any of Putin88's made up Russian claims from the Ukraine war.

I'm not defending any Israeli response which would target civilians but people should understand that there is a massive amount of misinformation right now.

What we do know is that Hamas is a terrorist organization bent on the destruction of Israel, that it's been ruling Gaza for almost 20 years (basically from the minute Israel went hands off), that Hamas has been hijacking all humanitarian aid to Gaza in order to prepare for war and that no country in Israel's position would permit Hamas to remain in power.

We can quibble about how surgical the response needs to be (I certainly have) but the status quo is obviously untenable (for both Israel and the palestinian subjects of Hamas terrorism).


I don't trust the numbers either. And I bet nobody knows what the correct totals are.

But one must think the numbers are quite high when we see the photos of buildings turned to rubble.

Have you heard about how parents are writing their kids' names with sharpie on their bodies in case they end up dead? TV had a photo of kid bodies lined up with names on their legs, but I can't find it online.

concordtom
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oski003 said:

concordtom said:

oski003 said:

concordtom said:

Thx for posting.
The report was good to do. But I disagree with the conclusion in the last two sentences.

Israel does NOT need to be obliterating Gaza. Vengeance is not going to work out well for them to the long run.

I heard the death toll in Gaza is now 4000, with hundreds of children? That compares to 1200 killed in the initial raid into Israel?

I'm sure Gazans will now have their own appalling accounts of death and destruction to pass around and incite more vengeance in return.

So, one asks of war and retribution… When Does It End?


If Hamas surrenders, zero children will die.


If Hitler had surrendered….
Come on now. Don't make the population pay for criminal leaders.

What am I supposed to do, kill Trump so my children don't have to die when he starts ww3?


No, you don't have to kill Trump so your children don't have to die when he starts ww3. You should, however, accept the reality that we are now closer to ww3 under Biden than we were any day of Trump's presidency.


Go back to Fox, buddy.
concordtom
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bearister said:

Biden officials on edge amid fears of war widening in Middle East


https://www.axios.com/2023/10/23/biden-israel-gaza-middle-east-war-threat


"Gosh, if only trump were in office, the planet would be singing cum-by-ya nonstop."
-Oski003 thought bubble
oski003
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concordtom said:

bearister said:

Biden officials on edge amid fears of war widening in Middle East


https://www.axios.com/2023/10/23/biden-israel-gaza-middle-east-war-threat


"Gosh, if only trump were in office, the planet would be singing cum-by-ya nonstop."
-Oski003 thought bubble b


You are the one with extreme thoughts. You can't seem to handle the truth. Truthfully, I don't know if we'd be closer to ww3 than we are now if Trump was still in charge. I do know that we are closer now than we were 4 years ago.
oski003
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concordtom said:

bearister said:

Biden officials on edge amid fears of war widening in Middle East


https://www.axios.com/2023/10/23/biden-israel-gaza-middle-east-war-threat


"Gosh, if only trump were in office, the planet would be singing cum-by-ya nonstop."
-Oski003 thought bubble b


It is kumbaya. Get a hold of yourself.
tequila4kapp
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concordtom said:

Unit2Sucks said:

concordtom said:

Thx for posting.
The report was good to do. But I disagree with the conclusion in the last two sentences.

Israel does NOT need to be obliterating Gaza. Vengeance is not going to work out well for them to the long run.

I heard the death toll in Gaza is now 4000, with hundreds of children? That compares to 1200 killed in the initial raid into Israel?

I'm sure Gazans will now have their own appalling accounts of death and destruction to pass around and incite more vengeance in return.

So, one asks of war and retribution… When Does It End?
Does the 4,000 include the 500 fake deaths in the hospital that wasn't destroyed?
I don't trust the numbers either. And I bet nobody knows what the correct totals are.
The actual numbers don't really matter because the Hamas-centric narrative that Israeli is the evil oppressor is so pervasive.
MinotStateBeav
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If you get a chance, there was a very intersting Twitter/X conversation(spaces) that just finished up with Elon, Vivek Ramasamy, David Sacks, Alexander Mercouris, and Policy Tensor, and Daniel Davis about the conflict happening in Israel/Gaza and the relationship with Russia/Chinese. One comment talked about the USA is starting to use the term "AXIS OF EVIL" is going to be a self fulfilling prophecy (Mitch McConnell specifically used this term recently) that has Russia and China working together in what historically would not have happened as Russia does not want to be seen as the little brother in the relationship. The same with Russia working with Iran historically would not have happened. I'd be interested in others thoughts on this spaces because I found it interesting if you get a chance to listen to it. Not sure how to link a spaces..I'll see if I can.

It seems like this admin just is very opposed to using diplomacy at all and we may be walking ourselves into a bigger conflict than what US military power can handle. Elon made a very good comment i thought was that foundation of war is economic power and at best Europe and the USA combined is even or very close with China in terms of industrial power.

 
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